”I'm just an average carpenter and builder a lost in a world of red tape”.  

Joel Griffs from Heidi Build isn't exaggerating. The modern builder's reality involves navigating compliance mazes, managing cash flow crises, and maintaining a social media presence all while trying to actually construct buildings. We sat down with Joel to understand how the builder's role has transformed and what it takes to survive in 2025.

For those entering or continuing in the building industry, Joel's story offers both warning and encouragement: the work is harder than ever, but with the right approach, it's still possible to build a sustainable business while maintaining your sanity.

LINKS:

Heidi Build:

https://www.heidibuild.com.au

Connect with us on Instagram:  @themindfulbuilderpod

Connect with Hamish:

Instagram:  @sanctumhomes

Website:   www.yoursanctum.com.au/

Connect with Matt: 

Instagram: @carlandconstructions

Website:  www.carlandconstructions.com/

I think this is gonna be hilariously fun because um, I actually have no

fucking idea where it's gonna go to.

And in fact, we've started off completely different 'cause we

have your apprentice here, Ben.

We've got Ben your apprentice here, and we didn't get him to

fill out a form or anything.

He's just like an ad hoc, like guest that's gonna be here.

So this is, this is awesome.

It's almost exactly how I thought this was gonna go.

Yeah.

Okay, sweet.

Um, Joel and Ben, this is all about Ben.

It's all about Ben.

We are making this all about Ben.

Yeah.

This is actually your review.

Um, so it's your quarterly review.

Depending on

how you go, you'll either get your apprenticeship extended

or you'll get signed off.

to.

I'm kidding.

on the,

I wouldn't have that.

Hey, um, what'd you do to your shoulder?

tore the super spinatus.

Yeah.

So it was torn and then I was like, oh, you know what, I'll try and rehab it.

And typical, um, made like the shitty attempts at trying to rehab it.

Yeah.

Across like a few months and just fucking made it worse.

So yeah.

Then got to a point where I couldn't sleep and then I was trying to turn the

wheel in in my car with my right arm and I was like, oh, fuck, that hurts.

So I thought, yep.

Time to get checked out.

And as do you know, they've obviously gone in and fixed it

now, like was it a big tear?

Yeah, so it was, it was like a high grade tear, two thirds of

the way through 12 centimeters.

Any bicep stuff as well?

No bicep stuff.

But there, there was a spur on the bone that they have to like shave back as well.

And when they asking is we had the same, we had the same surgeon.

Yeah.

Which sp he was a really good rep.

A search and wanna sponsor the podcast too?

No.

Oh yeah.

Should we give a shout out to Dewal?

We just got given drills like this is, we've made it ish.

This the first thing that we've ever, uh, received from this podcast.

There you go.

Really?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Absolutely.

Each guest, we get to fill out a form.

Yeah.

And there's one word here, or not one, one sentence here.

I'm just an average carpenter and build a loss in the world.

A red tape.

What do you mean by that?

I

love that.

I actually thoroughly enjoyed reading through your response.

Yeah.

It's a bit of, all the guests got be best answers.

Best answers.

Well, they might be heavily influenced by the painkillers

that I've been on, so Yeah.

Just bring something for us.

A little bit more loose sleep.

Yeah.

Out there in the car.

Let's do it.

Um, yeah.

What do I mean by that?

When I did my apprenticeship or started my apprenticeship, it, it,

it was a totally different thing to be a builder, what it is now.

You know?

Um, you could be a builder with a diary in the ute.

That was what my boss did.

Yeah.

He would organize everything, you know, simple times.

So simple man.

Like, and you were on site, boots on the ground, ordering

materials, picking this up.

You'd call a plumber and say, you know, Barry, can you get to this job?

Monday, two weeks from now, he'd be like, yeah, no worries, mate.

He'd go and he'd go there, he'd be there and he'd do the job.

And if something was like a little bit different than what he quoted, he'd

be like, yeah, it's all good, mate.

You know, like, or swings and roundabouts out.

Yeah.

You know, you'd just work it out between his, um, whereas yeah, being a

builder now, man, there's so much admin, like, when I got into it, I didn't

get into it to, to sit behind a desk.

Yeah.

Like I was just talking to Matt earlier and he's saying he loves

being behind a desk and loves.

Well, it it, it suits a certain personality type, I reckon.

Mm-hmm.

What, what do you reckon's changed?

Ah, shit loads.

Like what hasn't changed?

Um, chicken is

those people like making high performance windows, which have now, um, yeah.

Those guys are the enemy.

No.

Should we give context around that or just let people kind of guess?

Just let him guess.

Okay.

We let, guess we cut.

We'll bring that up.

He's already

annoyed that he got on that.

You're on the podcast first before actually talked to her yesterday.

He's actually shitty.

Yeah.

I told Andre, I'm like, it's 'cause you're fucking boring.

I'm like, you gotta be like, you know, get up there a bit more.

So,

so Joel is Andre from Binks brother?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So Andre's

the boring one baby.

Your worst Andre is the boring one.

Andre's the smart one, actually.

The smart boring one.

He's the smart one and he's a bit more conservative, which, you

know, makes him a bit more boring.

So yeah, he's Andre Andre's email, Andre's

words to me were, oh, you'll enjoy him.

He's a bit loose.

I'm like, yeah, now we're gonna have fun.

He's dead.

I

now, I now hope that Andre changes his like, email tab at

the bottom to Andre Director.

The boring one or

The boring one.

the boring one.

The smart boring one.

The smart one, yeah.

Yeah.

He's always been the smart

one.

So, re so red tape, what, what's, what's changed?

Um, because you've been in industry for how long now?

Oh, well I started my apprenticeship when I was 19, 18, sorry, 18 straight.

Um, I actually went to RMIT.

Um, doing building design and flunked everything.

Yep.

Um, and realized like, oh, I, I'm just doing this 'cause my dad wants

me to go to, you know, university.

And, um, eventually I actually had a design teacher named Andrew Rodder.

Right.

And he used to come in there and, um, we'd have this design class.

He'd give you a design brief and you'd have to draw, you

know, something to the brief.

Uh, and I draw it.

And then when you draw it, you also had to present it in front of the class,

like you present it to your client.

One

day, towards the end of the first semester, he sat me down and

said, do you mind hanging back?

I said, yeah.

All right.

So we hang back and he goes, um, can I ask, like, what

do you wanna do career wise?

And I'm like, I don't really know.

You know, like, he goes, do you want be an, like an architect?

And I said, ah, I actually really wanted to be a builder.

I said, but my dad wanted me to go to uni, so here I am.

He goes, right.

He goes, 'cause you can't draw.

I'm like, yeah, I fucking know.

He goes, but he goes, I feel compelled to pass you.

He said, because every time you present the drawings, you

present them with such conviction.

I end up believing in the fucking design.

So

So

He said, so you've probably got something there, but maybe this isn't your path.

I'm like, oh, thank you.

And the fact that you

remember this guy and he's had such a, like profound impact

on your PA career direction.

Yeah.

Like I think you've got a lot to thank him for.

I, yeah.

I actually honest,

I actually called him a couple years ago and thanked him, you know, and

I said, you, you won't remember me.

And you know, he, uh, because I know you, the guy appreciate,

you're the guy that can't design.

Yeah,

yeah, yeah.

He's like, I remember you.

The, the one guy that came to my class, I couldn't draw.

I guess I, I, you know, make a short story along we got.

Got into building to be a trade, to be on site.

Yeah.

To, to, to build houses and, and just make things and enjoy that process.

But there's so much that goes on in the background now.

Um, especially with compliance.

It, it's, um, it, it just makes it really difficult if you're a, if

you're a, a one man band, so to speak, and which I sort of am as a builder.

Yeah.

I don't have a business partner or Yeah.

I didn't have like a full solid crew that, that offers support.

Yeah.

And, uh, yeah, that was, that was that.

And then I guess COVID came through, which made it, uh, post COVID

and the big build, which made it really difficult to get trades on

site and, um, jobs just blew out.

Um, I, I remember talking to your brother, um, during, just after COVID,

maybe 22, 23, and he mentioned that you had just decided, I'm done with this.

Yeah.

Sort of single project resi stuff.

Like it's too hard.

Um, I think you even mentioned that you spent a couple of years

working for nothing just to pay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I was, I was, so what I was literally writing down then is one

of his quotes that you've written.

Mm-hmm.

And it's, I'm gonna quote post COVID.

I worked for two years straight to lose over a million dollars.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and that story as shit as it is, is not in isolation either.

Like, I guarantee that there are dozens, if not hundreds

of other builders out there.

That would've been the same thing.

Like I reckon we just broke even Yeah.

Throughout COVID.

Yep.

And we're still stupid enough to be here right now as builders.

Yeah.

Um, like recent though, you're pretty pri prolific on social media.

I think that's how we It's funny you're just talking hilarious.

Like, I think I personally, from my side, I'm really engaged by

it because it's so true to me.

Yeah.

Like probably my personality.

We probably have, we were all cut from the same cloth of personality types here.

Yeah.

And you mentioned that you are really struggling with going in for this surgery

because you're like, my whole identity is.

Is, is being a carpenter, being, being on the tools with a team,

and I'm really struggling.

I'm, I'm really not looking forward to this next part of my life where I am

literally forced to sit on the sidelines.

Yeah.

How, how are you, how are you now?

I mean, two days post, I know you're probably not thinking quite Yeah.

Clearly with all the pain meds, but like, how are you viewing the next few weeks?

yeah.

I'm trying to use it as an opportunity to bring the other guys up and, you

know, give them a bit of rope and not be overbearing or controlling.

I would always give them an opportunity, and then as soon as one

little thing would go wrong, that would like vindicate me to say, no.

See, I need to be doing it.

Yeah.

Whereas now I don't really have a choice.

Um, can I get

your feedback on that, Ben?

Like, like, what's he like, Ben?

No.

Now be honest.

Like, I feel like I, I feel like you've got, you have, yeah.

You're kidding

Yeah,

on.

To be honest here, because I think.

This kind of like hands-on apprenticeship from a builder's point

of view, I think is really valuable.

And I think my apprentices have probably not got that from me.

Like I think if I was on site that potentially turn out to

be different carpenters and I think better or worse, I, I,

I,

I'm gonna be careful, but probably not how I would've trained them.

Yep.

Because that's okay.

It's my business and it's my, how I want them to do it, do things in a certain way.

Like I'm completely hands off now.

Yeah.

I think you're in a really amazingly unique, uh, uh, situation, position where

you are learning from someone who's super passionate and I'm keen to know how you,

like, do you, do you understand like the situation you're in and like how grateful

you potentially could or should be?

Like what you say Ben?

Yeah, definitely.

Ah, there's definitely great answer.

I move on.

Yep.

I don't, there's definitely

plenty of growth at Heidi build.

Yeah.

Like, I don't think I could really get this at any other company.

Um, they with the same passion from, from, um, Joel?

Yeah, definitely.

Like, even before I worked at Ville, the way Joel actually got me to work for, for

Ville originally, I was a bit skeptical on it 'cause I worked through my old boss.

Yeah.

Gave, look, you're not gonna learn anything else, anything

like this anywhere else.

And I was like, all right, how did you guys come, how did you do?

Um, so Ben was actually on loan with me through a mate.

Yeah.

Uh, a mate was like a little bit quiet and so he was subbing, you know, Ben

to me and one of his other chippies.

Um, 'cause we were really flat out and, um, one day Ben actually came to

site, and again, I'm not on the tools full time, but when I am, you know,

I'm, I'm up to them about everything.

Yeah.

So Ben comes to site one day.

You was sort of dragging his feet and little bit lackluster, you know,

see it's classic apprentice trade at some point.

Yeah.

Oh, look, I, I, I think, I think everyone has those.

It, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dragged the feet.

And I said to, I said to him, I said, listen man, I said, if you wanna

be here, fucking pull your head in.

You know, get, get your mind in the game and, and apply yourself.

I said, 'cause we're doing dangerous shit all the time.

And I don't want someone with me that's not got their head in the game.

Like, if something falls, I want someone to watch my back as well.

And, and I said to him, I said, yeah, either come here and you

wanna learn and we'll teach you.

I said, oh, don't bother.

And honestly, after that it was like one chat and it was

like a, a switch just flipped.

And he's like 20 minutes early every day, buys shit, loads of

tools, um, you know, actually invest in his career and you buy tools.

We just get given them.

Ben actually had to buy our vault.

that was what happened.

And then, you know, Ben was sort of thinking about leaving and this

and that, and I ended up telling him, say, look man, you know, I

don't put on apprentices anymore.

I, I, you know, and he knew that.

I said, but I'll put you on, 'cause I said, you, you've been really impressive.

Like, you rock up early, you know, you do what's asked of you, you

work back If we need, you know, you ask questions And then, um,

is he got an old school attitude?

Like does, I can don't wanna talk for a second, but you, do

you know what I'm talking about?

Like, when you were taught as an apprentice?

Because I feel generations are sort of changed a little bit softer.

Is he

He's not precious.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it's what Yeah.

He just does whatever needs to be done or what's asked of him.

And within

reason.

And you'll speak up when he feels like he doesn't need to.

Yeah.

Like, I think so

I feel, I feel like you can give constructive.

Very, um, clear feedback in a safe environment.

Yeah.

It doesn't need to be yelling.

It doesn't have to be yelling, like, but I still feel like we should, as

business owners or teachers or lead carpenters or whatever, should be able

to give feedback without, um, without prejudice and without feeling like

there's gonna be a kickback from it.

It's at their best interest,

I feel like.

Yeah.

I feel like there is a little bit of that kind of treading on egg

shell a little bit like it is.

I used to just get fucking yelled at.

Oh man.

Like, it was like

shit thrown at you.

Hammers and all kinds of stuff.

Yeah.

Right.

And I've chosen not to go down that path path because I don't

think it's the way to do it.

But like I, I certainly fucking learned a lot

Yeah.

From being in that environment.

Yeah.

Like it was a school of hard knocks and it's, it doesn't have a place now.

No, it doesn't in society anymore.

And there are good things about it, but there was also a lot

of shit things about it too.

Like I was lucky.

My boss was pretty strict, but he was, he was fair as well.

Yeah.

Um, but you still could

be strict, but hard knocks You can still be strict.

Yeah.

But you just, it's the, it's the, the vocabulary and the

body language around that.

yeah.

It's, um, it's been good having been on, like he's not far off being qualified now.

What?

He got a year?

Uh, yeah.

Two years depending on the answers to these podcasts.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, but like I said, I, I think it's, it's, um, it's about

that no bullshit approach.

Yeah.

Like he comes to work, no ego, no, no issues.

Yeah.

And we can spend the time teaching him.

And like, he, he's, he works alongside with Luke, Sean, guys that are really

skilled and experienced as well.

And what I try to do now when I'm scheduling, I'll be like, no, I want Ben

on this 'cause that's a fix with this hardwood arcs or this colonial profile.

I want him doing that.

We're pitching a roof here.

Put him with, with Luke.

Yep.

And, and, and

have a go and own the opportunity because everyone's had to be in a situation

where there's a risk of fucking up.

And I'm sure Joel's not gonna put you in a position where he hasn't reconciled in his

own mind that there might be a fuck up.

So just have at it.

Have a go at it.

'cause you never, you always have to do something for the first time.

And you as a business owner need to give your apprentices an opportunity

something for the first time.

Yeah.

And make mistakes.

And make mistakes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's part of it.

It's just

so, so how, how, how are you gonna navigate this now?

Like, you know, I know as I said, this social media post was, um, you know, it

resonated with me 'cause I went through the same thing with a risk reconstruction.

Yeah.

I could kind of was at a point where I couldn't be on the tools

'cause it was fucking painful.

Yeah.

Like, I couldn't move it, it was fucked for about six months.

Yeah.

I've got a really good backend system, which gives us a lot of

reliability and the boys have all the details that they need.

I just literally needed to let go.

Yeah.

And, um, it's forced me to do it, so I've done it.

It seems to be working well so far.

Two

days in.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What projects

do you take on?

'cause you don't do big renovations in

Nah, so we just do smaller jobs now.

Um, basically everything I, I work for some national clients.

Um, we do some commercial sort of stuff.

I've done hospo fit outs.

Yeah.

Powder, powder room

renovations where you put the toilet, not center of the, oh man, that

absolutely.

Did you see that?

Yeah.

Who did that?

Was that one?

That was me.

It was my house.

So I'm renovating my house

and,

um, and I'm, I'm so bad with that stuff.

Like, I even called out my sparky 'cause he put the light slightly off center and

I, I walked in, I'm like, Hey, all about is, I'm like, is that like slightly out?

And he's like, no, it's in the center.

I'm like, are you sure?

And he's like, yeah.

I'm like, alright.

And then I sort of turned back around.

I'm like, do you mind just measuring it quickly?

And he's like, rolls his eyes, like, yeah, all right.

And he measured it and he starts laughing.

I'm like, what?

He goes, it's four mil out.

Um,

he's like, do you want me to move it?

I'm like, if you don't mind.

And I've done that, but then the toilet's out so.

Oh.

But there is a reason the toilet's

out.

You

didn't

want

to, you

didn't

want

to

cut

the joist cut.

No.

You didn't wanna cut the slab?

Yeah, I didn't wanna

cut the slab and then I didn't wanna put one of those, um, offset.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Things.

'cause you know, they restrict the Yeah.

The shit.

The shit,

shit, yeah.

yeah.

Restrict the shit.

And man, one of my kids, dude, he drops big ones.

So when

So when you mean small stuff, are you saying like you do like a full fit out

of like just architrave skirting or you still take like small renovations?

Yeah,

smaller renovation works and um, we just pick and choose a bit of

stuff that comes, comes through.

Yeah.

I'll tell you what I actually did, right?

I got outta building because I was said, I said to myself and I said to my

wife, I'm like, building this building business is no longer a good business.

Like, it's just not a good business.

It's shitty cash flow.

It's lumpy.

Um, it's super high risk.

There's a shit load of liability, which all of my assets are attached to.

And, um, the returns were just dwindling.

Mm. I'm like, not all things, like I'll take, take a couple of shit

things with something good, but I'm like, no, this has all become shit.

So I just said no.

I've been in business for myself for like, oh God, 18 years or

at that time, like 15, 16 years.

I'm like, is this a good business?

No, it's not a good business.

So let's get outta this.

And I opted to change the business.

I went down from, we had 12 guys, we went down to four.

Mm-hmm.

Um, a couple of guys left 'cause they didn't wanna do the smaller stuff

they wanted to do architectural.

That's fine.

Um, which is fine.

Yeah.

I had no hard feelings And, um.

But I said, no, but this is a better business model.

The margins are a bit better.

The cash flow's way better, the risk is way reduced.

It's mitigated and, and spread out across different, you know, projects.

So you had

a big truck and earth moving equipment.

Like I love that truck that you got.

Like, how can I justify buying one this?

So it's a really old truck.

And how I didn't really ask about, so I wanted to buy an excavator, started

looking at a little, but I kept having a tough time with, um, earth moving guys.

Um, and yeah, I, I just said, I, I can do this myself.

So I said, I'll buy a little 1.7 ton and then I'd sort of got

carried away, bought a three and a half ton machine, and I'm like, oh

fuck, I can't transport this thing.

So I went and bought a small truck, bought the small truck from Sydney, used

that a bit, and I'm like, I keep sort of going over capacity of the truck.

I'm like, I might need a bigger truck.

So I bought, I bought the Kenworth and um, have you seen, have you

seen the, it's like a proper, like it's like a

proper, proper, proper bogey.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's like, it's like the east plant type of truck.

Yeah.

Like,

yeah.

Yeah.

It's a cab over with a 10 meter body on it.

So, and

that's your get around car?

Yeah, man, it's the daily, um, pop down the shops.

Yeah.

So no, I, I, I'd actually restored it.

Um, so it, it was, it only cost me like 70 grand.

That's right.

Yeah.

Right.

That's beautiful.

Actually, it's a duner, like it's old and rattly and Yeah.

You know, but it, it looks cool.

It does look very cool.

So you got a three and a half ton that you, you, yeah, we just

do our own Earth works.

Um, do you regret

not buying a five ton?

Yeah, a little bit, yeah.

But then want, then you

want the seven and a half and then you want the, the 10 and then see I

was like, I'll get the three and a half and then I'll get an

eight and that would be great.

Yeah.

So my argument to that is that if anything, like three and a half or

a five and both need to be floated.

Yeah.

I'm

so different.

I'm mostly outsource it.

Yeah, I'm the complete, like, complete opposite of the scale.

Yeah, but what about the Yeah, no, I, I know.

No, no, it's, it's, it makes sense.

Yeah.

I, I just, I'm not a

toys person.

Like I'm dressed in my RMS Williams and Chinos, like I'm the, I'm the A builder.

That's not typical.

You guys got your boots on and Yeah.

It's just like, I, I don't a

knocks on, but I also have a five ton machine, so Yeah.

You also, you also have a huge storage space.

I live inner, inner city.

Like I can't even park my car at the front of my house.

Yeah,

yeah.

But see, the irony of that is you'd be a more successful builder than me.

'cause I spend all this time in a machine.

So it's define service,

define success because this is a really making profit.

Yeah.

So like, like the thing is, I think the issue with success at the moment

in building is like, oh, you've got heaps of Instagram followers.

Oh, you got a lot of lives.

Yeah.

That's now to defined as a successful builder.

I not, are you making money?

Are you doing jobs you like, do you get along with the clients?

Like, 'cause there's, I can tell you now there are jobs where we didn't

make as much money as we wanted to.

There are projects we didn't enjoy as much as we wanted to.

Is

that successful?

I don't know.

Well, I actually think there's an inverse relationship between

instagramability and profitability.

I can tell you a hundred percent.

That's correct.

The more

instagramable your jobs are, the less likely you are to make money on 'em.

Oh, it would because I had some fucking Instagrammable jobs.

Yeah.

And I didn't make money.

I actually came

across one of 'em the other day, and I'm like, and it wasn't through your,

um, your, uh, Instagram account.

It was just happened to be an architect that I follow, and I'm

like, oh, fucking Joel built that one.

Oh, yeah.

Down down it was down, um, sort of torkey kinda Ocean Grove.

Ocean Grove.

That's Pete's place.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Peter Steele.

Yeah.

He's, um, and, um, weRock.

Yeah.

It's,

it's almost at the higher the

value of the contract, the less likely are to make money.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Because like the margins erode and, and so much money gets spent on the spec

and contract admin.

And contract admin, like

were you all on ABI contracts?

Were you or?

No.

So I actually would.

Melt when I saw an Abit contract.

Mm. Um, and I was like, look, if I don't fucking understand it, I'm not signing

it and I'm not paying someone four grand to tell me that they understand it.

Mm. So, and the lawyers don't understand 'em.

And they don't understand them either.

You know, it's, we, I like, we used to basically go with a HIA contract.

Yeah, yeah.

Fine.

And, you know, attach a bunch of things to it.

And a lot of architects don't like it.

And I can understand why they're, they're not really geared towards architects

and ab contracts are, but Yeah.

The building, building a house is difficult enough as it is.

And my theory was, I'm like, I just wanna be on site.

AB contracts aren't profitable for a builder at all.

Yeah.

The moment you have retention.

you're behind the eight ball, we've gotta sign off on it for 10 years.

That's enough risk we have to take.

Yeah.

Now you gotta add cashflow that we've been removed from I have a, I'll be honest,

I'm not gonna go with him in the future.

I have a strict something that I've said to myself I won't be doing.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's fair enough.

I, yeah, I I I wouldn't do 'em either.

It's nothing

personal against the architects.

I think it's just from a, from a basic business standpoint, they make no

sense from a building construction.

are all your brothers entrepreneurial?

Um, yeah, pretty much.

Uh, we, we sort of fell even the boring one backwards.

Even the Andre's,

I'm,

I'm, he's never gonna let live this down.

Yeah.

Go, go, go, go.

Let's go.

He's, lemme crack with me.

Let's go.

when we started Bink.

Right.

So, 'cause you

were a part of B or are a part of Bink?

I'm not anymore, so, yeah.

Um, I sold out and it's my, my brothers have, so two of my brothers have it now.

And actually one of my brothers, my oldest brother, Brendan,

his son is the general manager.

Ashley Ash.

Ash, yeah.

And Ash is actually.

Gotta be their secret weapon origin.

'cause he knows that business.

Yep.

Back to front.

Yeah.

We deal with Ash quite a bit.

Yeah.

Yeah,

he's good.

And um, but yeah, when we started, why did you just use, I just

messaged Andre saying the quote, Andre's not gonna like this.

Oh, brilliant.

That's going.

I'm gonna cover from Sure.

I'm

on.

The next time I order Windows from 'em, they're gonna go,

the price is gonna go up.

when we started Bink, my brother Arnie, who is no longer in the business either,

he sold out, um, even earlier than me.

He's actually a singer.

Right.

Right.

Right.

Yeah.

It's gonna get better.

And I, I feel like I'm actually stealing Andre's thunder now because this is his

story now.

No, no,

no.

Don't worry about it.

He's boring anyway.

He's not coming on the podcast.

You know, when Andre comes on and, oh, don't talk about that.

We've already, we've already talked about that one.

Um, yeah.

So Arne wanted to buy four doors for his house.

Uh, we went looking around, he or he went looking around.

He couldn't, um, find any for like a decent price.

Decided to make them himself.

Made them himself like stood back, had like a Colorbond moment.

And he is like, that's fucking great.

He goes, oh, what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna sell these on eBay.

He listed on eBay and they sold for like four and a half grand and they

would've cost him like two something.

Yeah.

And he's like, fuck, I just made really good money.

So he is like, well, I better make another one.

So he made another one.

And then I'm like, bro, you can't make like fivefold doors with

just a top and bottom track.

You need a, a jam, like a, a frame.

Oh, he just made the doors.

He just machined the doors with a little Makita seven a quarter, uh, to

put the seal grooves in and then just screwed like her loin cent hardware on.

Yeah, it's crazy.

And he sold it, but I'm like, no, you need to sell it with a frame.

So he is like, well, I don't know how to do that.

So I went to tiling Porters in Clayton bought like some timber machined up a, um.

A door jam with a sill and he sold it again.

And then we were like, fuck, let's just do this again.

So we did it a third time.

Someone missed out on the auction that goes, Hey, I missed out on this auction.

Can I just buy one for the same price?

We're like, yeah.

So that was the first order.

And then someone, us through, uh, eBay and be like, oh, I need these bylaws,

but I also need a pair of French doors.

And as Arnie's about to say, no, I can't.

I'm like, no, no, I can, I can do the French doors.

I'm like, I know how to do that.

It's easy.

They were like, easy.

They're way easier.

Way easier.

So we did some French doors and then someone asked for a sliding door and

basically he had a tandem carport in East Melbourne, and when it

rained we would be throwing sawdust in the front to stop water coming

through and getting onto the timber.

And uh, we basically outgrew this tandem carport within a couple of months.

So he's like, I need a factory.

So he leased a factory.

And at this stage I was subbing as a chippy.

So I said to my boss, then I'm like, I, I gotta quit.

I've just started a window company.

I've just started a window company and um, we are doing this.

And then I started doing like site measures and then, uh, I'm trying

to do a quote and make it look fucking professional as a carpenter.

And I'm like, fuck, this is so difficult on Excel.

You know, it would've paint

back in the day Microsoft Word.

It was so, it was Excel.

I was trying to do it on Excel, right, because, 'cause I wanted formulas and

I'm like, this is fancy not working.

I know what I do equals A plus b, I fucking call Andre.

So I called Andre 'cause Andre's got a degree in programming and stuff.

And um, we, I asked him, he came to give us a hand.

Arnie went away.

Andre came to help during that time.

And then me, other brother Brendan was like in between jobs and

we're like, man, we are busy.

Come and help us.

We'll pay you.

So we all sat down at my mom and dad's over Christmas and

said, let's, let's do this.

Like let's go together.

Four brothers.

And that's how Brothers Incorporated started.

Oh, I was literally just gonna ask, uh, where the name came from.

Yeah, yeah.

Actually Andre

asked him that once.

Yeah.

Um, so is it ironic now that the two that started the business

now are no longer involved?

Yeah.

Well, the guys that know the window or knew the window system well,

the, the funny thing is, is none of us knew really anything

about windows and doors.

So we had no business starting a window business, and it was

off the back of like seven.

Does anyone have any business starting that?

How good businesses start disruptors?

Do you know what I mean?

Well, you know, you should be a joiner or something and come through the trade.

Like, it'd be like someone picking up and just becoming a carpenter.

You know, you sort of, it seems,

yeah, it's a bit, but you look at it from a different perspective.

I think when you enter an industry that you are not used to, you're disruptive.

You look, you, you remove a lot of the, oh, that's how I've always done it.

That's how I've always done it.

So you just cut the bullshit and went to it?

Yeah, pretty much.

Yeah.

And, um, we learned pretty quickly that there wasn't much we could learn

about windows and doors in Australia.

So we ended up going, me and Andre went to Germany.

And did a blind, he, he's just replied blind.

What?

What a flog.

Blind ignorance, honestly is the best start of any success story in a business.

I reckon.

It's like if you knew what you knew back then, there's no

fucking way you would've done it.

Yeah, but like just having the like, oh yeah, I can do that.

Oh man,

young, you had nothing to lose.

honestly, they're killing it now.

Like they're doing really, really well.

Audra's part of this.

He's now cracked it.

This is bullshit.

I put in all the work in bugal log swans in for the glory.

Yeah.

Oh, and you should just say that we're just hearing the story

about how Bink started now.

So you just sold Thunder.

Oh, we don't need you to come in anymore on that.

Um, alright, so, so, so you are not part of Bink anymore?

I mean, like, full disclosure, I've used Bink on almost a hundred

percent of my projects now.

Like customer service, quality

of Windows.

Like, let's just go people like, just like, I, I'm actually, I'm

gonna pull back for a second.

I'm actually gonna say Andre, I go, I go to Bing for Andre.

Yeah.

I'm gonna be straight out.

Yeah.

I mean,

Yeah.

so he might be boring,

but I Yeah, but he's super diligent and that's where he's

like, he's, he's like really?

Um, methodical and listens though.

Yeah.

Listen, the amount of feedback that we've given them over the last two or three

years about the alloplast windows and the fact that he's got one of my team

in there doing like tests in the rig.

I saw that now and I'm like.

But not many people do that.

Like, we're like, this is shit.

This is not working.

You need to change it.

He's put his

balls on

the line

and he is.

Okay, great.

you moved away from architectural stuff.

You now you do have, you got, have you regained the passion now?

Um, yeah, but in a totally different way I think.

Yeah.

Okay.

Um, this whole social media thing really came about, ask about, again, I guess

not surprised.

There's a fucking pattern in my life.

You just take the pi, you're essentially taking the piss out the building industry.

Yeah.

I honestly like, um, there's a couple of things that like you guys do or, or have

done and the sort of stuff that you do.

And I take the piss when I talk to Andre actually, 'cause he's always

talking about passive house and.

Blah, blah, blah.

I'm like, fuck passive house, man.

I'm like, I'm gonna start my own thing.

I'm gonna call it active house.

It's a house where you've gotta do shit loads to maintain it.

Um, but yeah, like I guess my passion really is, um, is the craftsmanship

side of things or trying to lift the standard, but in, in a different

way than what you guys are doing.

Yeah.

I think that's what I've realized.

I'm trying to advocate for trades for that lifestyle.

I mean, as a young kid, that's the reason I got into trade.

You're bringing happiness

back into a trade.

We advocate for building better.

You are trying to, I'd say lift the standard of like the, the, the anxiety,

mental health aspect of construction.

Yeah, I guess so.

Yeah.

We, we try to have a good time to work in a, in a fun

way.

Like it doesn't need to be boring.

No.

No, that's

right.

Like we, we genuinely have a, a fucking hoot at work.

you obviously love the craft.

Yeah.

And, and are you hoping that you can get back into being on the tools once?

Like where do, do you think this is like a, like a kind of sliding

door moment for you where you could go one way or another, like go full

business and maybe get sort of drawn away from the connection with site?

Because I feel like I've, I'm there now and I, I don't, it kind of suits

me where my life is with, with three kids and all that kind of stuff.

But do you feel like you would end up back on site?

Well, for me, if I could.

Not have to do the stuff that I don't like doing within the business,

which is a lot of the backend admin.

Yeah.

And I'm lucky that Lauren is really good at a lot of that stuff.

Then I probably would just find myself more on site.

Yeah.

But not on site to be up the guy's ass.

I'd be on a site that I want to be on.

Yeah.

Like renovating my house now back on, or, yeah.

Yes and no.

Like, you know, I think renovating my house, even just the bathroom or

the pergola, I've been able to put a lot of creative input into it.

Yeah.

Choose certain things.

Like, I'll be like, I, I don't want brackets there, so I'll call Simpson

and I'll be like, listen, I need these screws, and then I'll send it

to the, to the building surveyor.

Yeah.

So look, I wanna sub these out for this so I don't have these visible

brackets, so I'll keep working it and tweaking something to make it better.

Yeah.

Um, and I like doing that on my own project, so I prefer to

probably just renovate my house.

We've got a block of land out in Coran borough that we're gonna build a house on.

Beautiful.

So I, I wanna build that like, I, I think ideally I'll have the cashflow business.

And then I'll do my own property stuff.

It's dream.

It'll be, it's a dream,

right?

It's a dream.

Like, you know, like some of my favorite moments, like on the tools recently has

been three or four hours on a Saturday, and I think I've talked about this before.

I made these gates for our food forest.

Yeah.

Out of reclaimed hardwood studs and like, I don't want to get all fucking woowoo

and all stuff, but I was fully in flow state for like three or four hours just

in the zone and I was just like loving it.

I'm like, I miss this.

Yeah.

It's cathartic.

I miss this.

Yeah.

And I don't, it doesn't happen much, but some of my happiest times are

just lost in doing a task like that.

Yeah.

I think, I think that's where I would like to be, you know?

Yeah.

Doing, doing that sort of stuff.

I think, you know, I don't want to be, I'd never be.

And, you know, the guy jumping into a Porsche, I don't think, and, you know,

just sipping lattes or going on, you know, holidays and stuff like that.

I, not that I don't like a Porsche, I prefer the older ones though.

Um, but yeah, I, I, I'm more hands on.

Yeah.

I like doing that stuff.

But you're allowed to be like, you, like I think that's the beauty

of you having your own business.

You can choose.

Yeah.

Like you get the luxury of being like, it's a little wet today.

I'm gonna go do the paperwork or sun's out, or I'm gonna start, I dunno,

I'll jump on the tools of the boys and all girls and have a bit of fun.

we, we read in, um, I kind of wanna go back to.

Before all of the construction stuff started, before Bing,

all that kind of stuff.

And I think I remember you, you wrote growing up in commission housing.

Yeah.

But what was your childhood like?

Um, it so it sounds worse than because there was four four brothers.

Yeah.

Uh, there's actually five brothers.

Four brothers.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

So there was four of us in the business.

She's your four mom.

Oh, man.

Yeah.

Like, just knowing you and Andre, I am like, you are a poor mom.

Yeah.

And, and Andre's like, Andre's definitely the most sensible out of all of us.

Fucking hell.

Brendan's.

Um, like Brendan and I are really similar.

Like he's, he's a lot more calm.

Yeah.

Um, but you know, really, really Australian, like Yeah.

Yeah.

Just love camping, going bush forward, driving, all that stuff.

Um, but Arnie's auntie's crazy as well.

Like he's a loony, loony tune.

Um, he's, and what's, what's,

what's he do?

He's

a singer.

Yeah.

He's a singer.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So he's super creative as well.

You

should see the shit he wears sometimes.

When it comes to a party, like my wedding, he wore a baby blue suit.

Right.

Right.

And it, it, it actually looked good on him, like Yeah.

Anyone else?

Yeah.

You'd be like, like you rock that.

Yeah.

But he, he, he, he owns it, you know?

So, um, but yeah, we, it sounds worse than is, we grew up in a commission house.

We were the last commission house in, in our block.

You know, everyone else owned their own

Yeah.

Sort of homes.

And I think that was the contrasting thing for me growing up, you know, not having

much, uh, like my dad was a tram driver.

Yeah.

Um, and

were, were your parents born here

or they, no.

So they immigrated from Sri Lanka.

Yeah.

In 84.

Both.

Both parents.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it kind of goes back to what we were doing.

All my brothers were born there actually.

Oh, really?

Was, I was the first one born here.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

So, and it

goes back to the story of hard knocks, like when you talk about like,

with apprentices, and sometimes you gotta have it not easy to get ahead.

Yeah.

I think I grew up like sort of not having.

Um, but seeing all these other kids that did have this stuff, and, you know,

my, my parents were pretty good to me.

Like they, they provided always for us, but, um, you'd see all these

tradesmen living this lifestyle and being in like in an immigrant family.

Yeah.

You'd see these like Aussies going around and like Mad Ys or like,

you know, XY gts like jet skis.

Yeah.

I remember there was this guy down the road, he had a blonde, like spiky

hair and a mullet and he had a, um, he had a Silverado Ute back then and

this number place would tax sucks.

I was like, that guy's the coolest guy.

I

I wanna be him.

Right.

So, so you

bought a, you bought a Kenworth?

Yes.

But I'm just short the blonde air.

But it goes back, this also then loops back to what we talked

about, like the, the building business and is it profitable?

Like you see so many tradies driving around in the most brand new you jet ski

tundras.

Yeah.

Like, are they actually, like, are they understand?

Like do they, are they making the money?

Like I think there's a visual, uh, a false narrative around a lot of

these things that people see that, and like, like do they actually

have the money they day to day?

No, they don't.

I think a lot of guys get themselves into a world of hurt with finance.

You know, they really don't understand the money side of things.

I mean, I'm really lucky.

Money just made sense to me from a young age.

Um, and again, Andre's influence Yeah.

Actually helped with that.

He was, he was, uh, he was always really switched on with money, so I

learned a lot about it from, from really early on and learned what to do, what

not to do, where to take risks and.

Because there, because there is this kind of sort of default response

saying, oh, it's a tax write off.

Yeah.

It's like that that okay.

The answer is yes, it is.

But you also need to have the money to pay for the thing that you've got.

Yeah.

There, there's

profit and then there's cash.

Like you have both.

Yeah.

Because you can have profit without the cash.

Yes.

You know, as I'm sure you guys are paid aware of as well.

And that's what I think being a business so young taught me and it's like, I

made all this money, but where is it?

Yeah.

It like, it's reinvested

into something else.

So it's in working pro work in progress thing as a builder, that whip figure is

scary, horrific.

And then you've gotta pay your bass and then you've gotta pay your PYG.

And then it, I always say if you're paying tax, you're making money.

Yeah.

Like, it's really simple.

The more tax you pay, the more money you're making.

Yeah.

Funny, my

accountant says that too.

I'm like, yeah, but are either I'm paying fucking tax or I'm paying you.

I'm not doing both.

So,

um, yeah, but it's, it is it, look, yes, it's a tax write off, but it's,

it's, that's not, it's still your money.

Still your money.

That's not a, a fucking.

you know,

know, a, a license to just go and buy whatever you want.

Yeah.

For, for no good reason.

I mean, okay.

Yeah.

I bought the Tundra.

I've been in business myself for 19 years, man.

You know, I, I was, I was, I

was making fun of the tundra.

Yeah.

I,

I actually think in my logical brain, a car like that, if you are towing

a lot or you're moving stuff around, a hundred percent makes sense.

Yeah.

A hundred percent.

Makes sense.

Look, I mean, I could do it with the Hilux, you know?

No problem.

Um, I did, I I bought it for me.

Yeah.

I had like, you know, I spoiled myself on that one thing, and I said

to my wife, I'm like, I've flogged myself for two years to go backwards.

We've turned this thing around.

I'm like, I'm rewarding myself.

Yeah, absolutely.

But I wanted to know with an excavator, uh, misconceptions.

I, I've rewarded myself quite a lot actually through my career.

I think about it.

What's the dumbest thing you bought?

My hk.

I bought it and I told Lauren, I'm like, look, I'm gonna spend like 70 grand.

With this thing all up, doing it up, and it's gonna be worth one 20.

I completely inverted the figures and, and then some, like

I blew up three motors in it.

Yeah.

Do you still

own it?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, I can't sell it.

I'll realize the loss and that'll hurt more than anything.

Yeah.

Okay.

Um, yeah,

that's probably one of the, that was a

tax write off though,

One

one in case the, a's listening, I do not claim anything to do with that car.

yeah.

That's only, only

because it's invoiced against something else.

Yeah.

No.

Um, yeah, so that's probably one of the dumbest things I've, I reckon I've,

I've bought from a financial aspect.

I probably, as, even at being and stuff, we'd, we'd spend too

much reinvesting in the business.

Um, and I'm a guy that likes to bring things in house and control stuff, so

Yeah.

The, the, the, the excavator, the truck.

Controlling.

This is actually, I wanna stop for a second.

Do you find him controlling?

No, not at all.

Really?

Not really.

If there's an aspect that you could say an open space, safe space that you can give

him feedback now that you feel that he could come to you and be less controlling

to advance your apprenticeship, what's something you'd give him?

not much really like, 'cause there's, there's a lot going on at IY build.

So he's not, he's not really there all the time.

Like he's always there in the background doing stuff, but there's not really

anything he could do to make it better.

I don't reckon

there's always something that you can do to make something better.

I think it's wrong.

A great response.

It's a good response.

Yeah.

From, from, from what I've seen and what I know about Heidi build, like, I think

you're in a great, to you Ben, you're in a great position to learn a lot.

Like you're not just doing framing, you're not just doing fix doing,

you're, you're getting exposure, you're doing, you're doing everything.

And you, you are probably not an expert at framing now.

You're probably not an expert at fixing now, but what you've got is this amazing

bag of tools that you can then carry on in your next phase of life, which

is probably what you've done too.

You've, yeah, like could, we are probably of a similar generation of builders where,

or carpenters where we did everything.

Yeah.

We didn't just do framing, we did everything.

We dug holes, we did a little bit of plumbing, clean bricks, framed

clean bricks, did the whole works.

So now you are kind of applying all of those different skill sets and

trust me, there will come a time in your life where I go, fuck, I'm so

glad I did my apprenticeship with Joel

and you, you like this.

I'd say, what we're 43 minutes into this conversation, the learnings

that you get from the mistakes that he made, where as you said, he is

lost a million dollars in two years.

Like you get to prevent yourself of a two, like a million dollar loss over that time.

Like you get the, the information that he passes onto you.

He's so valuable that.

You, you're young, you're not gonna see it straight away, but long term,

like the benefit that you get with the one-on-one love is there's also a 100%

chance that you are gonna take on a job one day that you'll lose money on.

Yeah,

Yeah.

A hundred percent.

there's a hundred percent chance, all three of it all.

You know what, there's still pretty much a hundred percent chance that all three of

us here will probably do the same thing.

Do it again.

Because it's the, it's the, oh, oh, that project looks good.

I'll do that one.

And then, then you start run the numbers like, oh, if I just take that out.

And then later you're like, why the fuck did I take that out?

I needed that.

Yeah.

We all do it every time.

You get a little bit of pressure and you wanna win the job.

You wanna close the deal and you,

what's you're saying Hamish?

What's the perfect project?

Oh, the last one?

No, the one where the architect gets their project built.

Oh, sorry.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Everyone win win, win, win.

Yeah.

Win, win win.

Client gets a house built, we make money, the architect gets their home.

Um.

The design build.

Yeah.

Um, I want to just touch on social media stuff for a second.

'cause it is really entertaining, like what you are doing.

and I know this is sort of organic, but you like kind of have a,

an idea of where that's going.

Nah, I dunno where it's going.

And I think that's,

I think that's a beauty, beauty of it, right?

Yeah.

I, everyone's got, I feel, I see a lot of guys and they've got this, um, clear

path to monetize or sell something or educate or promote something.

And I'm just like, no, I don't even know why I'm doing this.

So, yeah.

It's funny if you were to sit down with, most of the time, if you were

to sit down with like a social media team and be like, like what should I do

for running my, like my social media?

They'll tell you everything that you are doing you shouldn't be doing.

Yeah.

But it works.

Jim,

Do you know what?

Do you know what's so successful by it though?

Is it just so relatable?

Yeah, ev everything that I watch of your social media, I'm like,

oh yeah, I've done that before.

Yeah.

Oh yeah.

I've thought that before.

Like the apprentice one you did the other day.

Yeah.

Like it just resonates.

Yeah.

So strongly with my experience with apprentices.

Your shoulder thing the other day resonates so much with when

I did my shoulder and my wrist.

Yeah.

Like it's just real conversation.

It's real, it's real

life.

And that's what I think is missing.

Like when I see a lot of social media stuff, I'm like, it, you're full of shit.

And I think, yeah, people can pick up if you are bullshitting or not,

regardless of how good you are at it.

I reckon people pick up on it and you'll get found out.

So I just don't talk about shit.

I dunno about.

Yeah.

And I don't say something I don't believe.

Yeah.

Like

we probably have, we had to fake it till we made it with passive house.

Definitely.

But like, I, I won't, I'm very strong opinionated.

If you haven't.

Realize, but I will, um, like I'll only ever get into an argument that

like I know what I'm talking about.

Yeah.

Like, and I'll happily admit like, oh, we just had a podcast with Amelia

Lee, and I was like, she got me.

I was like, check mate, you win.

Like, I happy to.

That's my favorite part of the podcast.

Yeah.

It's like, I, I think that's the hard part with like social media.

It's just fake world.

Yeah.

And, and it's like, it's all, oh, they must be doing so much.

And I, I'm gonna, I see people that have worked for me in the past and

they're showing how good their stuff is.

I'm like, that is nothing what you've produced.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Is so fake.

Yeah, it is.

I

think it's important to kind of also understand that, that, that a

business account, personal account, like an account for a podcast, an

account for an architect, they're, they're different messaging.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Different messages.

So an architect, for example, is not gonna take the same strategy as what you've got.

Yeah.

I mean, although it'd be pretty fucking cool if you're an architect out there.

That would be real, I reckon.

I reckon

you'd be best candidate would be Glen Chamber.

Oh, yeah.

Chandler Architects.

Yeah.

Glen Glen's actually a really cool dude.

Right.

So I've worked for, I've, I've worked for a lot of architects and even in Bink

days, I like knew so many architects.

Um, I mean, I remember meeting Jeremy McLeod when he was like, had this little

studio behind his wife's fashion shop.

Right.

Um, and yeah, so seeing all these different personalities of people, like

Glen's a really good dude, and I actually, I sort of went toe to toe with him a

little bit on one of their, on one of his projects that I was building for.

And we were just, I was just having a shit time.

Yep.

You know, and I was typical builder.

I'm like, fucking architects, you know?

And, um, but he, you know, he fronted up.

He had the conversation, proved his point and, you know, da da da,

and persevered with me when I was like a stubborn, angry builder.

Yeah.

And we've got a great relationship now.

That's awesome.

Yeah.

And he's ac he's actually like a big fan of our stuff.

Like, so he's always interacting with us on, uh,

yeah.

Let's be clear architects, like, we love working with architects.

Like, I feel, um, they 100% have a space in the place that we operate within.

Yeah.

In fact, without them, we've gotta push

boundaries.

We pooed them a lot and take the piss out of them, but reality is,

we, we've gotta change the narrative.

I just don't think they've marketed themselves as a industry, like only two to

5% of houses are designed by architects.

It's, it's gotta be way higher.

Like, then we need better built houses.

And they're at the forefront in making that change.

Yeah.

Like they are.

But I'm gonna sort of challenge that as well.

Like, how many people can afford that though?

That service, you've gotta pay someone.

Yeah.

But.

One, one of the things that I don't really understand, uh, in, in building

is why are so many homes so unreliable?

Like even the architectural ones, like they are unreliable.

They, they, they don't, they don't necessarily last long and it's gonna be

unreliable if you constantly reinvent the wheel every time you build a new house.

I mean, you're constantly trying to deal with, and, you know, you guys

as builders in the passive house space understand the importance of

junctions, sealing them, dealing with materials, meeting other materials.

So one of the things that I've started doing, and I've, I've built

a little research, um, prototyping my factory, um, is a bathroom.

It's the one thing, it's the worst area of a house.

Every single.

And it's not even the whole bathroom.

It's that corner where the shower is.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Is the worst area of the house.

And every trade go.

When you do a bathroom of a renovation, every trade that goes through a

full build goes through a bathroom.

Bathroom, right.

And.

We just don't put enough effort, like why do we still roll slop

on and call it waterproofing?

Like it's such a shit system.

Do you know,

I, I slop it, I'm agreeing with you, like I'm agreeing with all of

this, but I'd never thought about it or articulated it this way.

Yeah, yeah.

So you, so you're developing some prototypes of the, I'm,

I'm doing some research.

We've been doing it for about a year with a mate of mine.

Um, basically I want to be able to build a house, give a warranty and not

worry about it and be like, no, there's

some pretty good American systems out there.

There's like the zip system I've seen on for external stuff.

You know, there's weedy here that Bowens have.

Yeah.

I'm not a fan of that.

Yeah.

I look, honestly, I haven't really dived into it too much.

I've got, I think I've got a day coming up with Bowens and Wheaties

coming out to chat about their system, but I don't understand funda.

But fundamentally hills and DMO coming out, picture stuff, big picture stuff.

Why are we building houses and not to knock what you guys do?

You guys do awesome stuff, right?

But it's custom.

And what I'm saying is if we wanna change something in the industry, why?

Why we keep changing every single house that we build.

So

you're saying it needs to be predictable and, and and

on scale.

Yeah.

Well,

predictable and it's kind of

a what we're working with alter Rico right now.

Yeah.

Something similar.

You know why, like Hiluxes, right?

They do so well in Australia.

Toyota, Camrys do so well in Australia.

Why They're not great.

Just Toyota.

They don't

look amazing.

79 series, 79 series.

Now there's, now that's the other extreme.

But, um, I had one and then I reckon that's what actually

caused my fucking shoulder.

I sold mine two weeks ago.

Yeah.

So,

oh man.

They're just the best and worst thing, like, it's like,

let's not talk about tires,

but so a hilar is really, um, attractive because it's unbreakable,

because it's reliable, but we don't have a, a house equivalent of that.

There's no Toyota in the, in the building space.

There's no one doing.

A Toyota in housing.

There's plenty of people doing alpha mayos.

It's,

it's a systems approach though.

Like, and this is where we, while we build passive house, it goes

back to a, a fundamental of physics.

You can't change physics whether you are here, south America, anywhere,

anta, if the wall structure will change depending where you are.

So the reliability is based on building science that you deal with water first.

Yep.

And that's, it's a real, to me, it's the most simplest answer.

But again, going back to what you have talked about, it gets forgotten.

Yeah.

Like deal with water.

Yeah.

We deal with water, everything else will follow.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I, well, like, I, I a hundred percent agree with you, but in the space that

you guys do it, it's unattainable.

But for a lot of people,

I have a strong opinion at the moment, that building is

unattainable for everyone.

Yeah.

Unless you have one of these money trees that, I don't know where they come

from 'cause I don't, can't find one.

It's so expensive.

Building is so expensive.

It's

ridiculously expensive.

And, but also what happened was the volume game made people expect