As builders in the Australian market, there's one recurring theme that keeps rearing its head in our conversations, and that's the tender process. It's akin to a race to the bottom, a mad dash where numbers are thrown around like confetti, and every party involved is crossing fingers, hoping all that time they invested in the tender results in actually getting the contract.
The reality can sometimes fall short, with tenders not proceeding through to a contract, clients just choosing the cheapest option and hours spent on a project that never comes to fruition.
For those new to the concept, the tender process traditionally involves getting multiple quotes for a project, often by an architect or a client. It's about cost comparisons and attempts to squeeze a project within a budget. We find ourselves questioning the validity of this approach, especially when the emphasis is typically on finding the lowest price rather than the best fit.
In this episode we take a look at how the tender process currently works, and why we recommend the negotiated tender process instead.
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Website: www.carlandconstructions.com/
today, um, we wanted to give a big shout out to, Liam and the team at Hip vs.
Speaker:Hype because we're actually
Speaker:filming
Speaker:at
Speaker:the Better Building Exchange in Brunswick.
Speaker:And the team there have been
Speaker:really
Speaker:generous to let us
Speaker:use their space
Speaker:to
Speaker:record
Speaker:these podcasts.
Speaker:but also for Sustainable Builders Alliance in the past
Speaker:as well.
Speaker:Oh Yeah, absolutely,
Speaker:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker:So this is
Speaker:this this is
Speaker:the same space that we use to do all our
Speaker:live events.
Speaker:So
Speaker:big shout out to Alice
Speaker:and Liam, the
Speaker:team from hipfirst
Speaker:Maddie today
Speaker:the topic is tender
Speaker:or
Speaker:not to tender?
Speaker:That is the question.
Speaker:so tender, typical
Speaker:process where you would the architect or designer goes to three people or
Speaker:a client goes to three people and they would then, um, essentially
Speaker:find the best price between the three and probably cost compare and
Speaker:somewhat try getting apples for apples
Speaker:like,
Speaker:for like, quote,
Speaker:that is not the reality of how this works
Speaker:as well.
Speaker:I think it's when it's with architects, they are a lot better at getting apples
Speaker:for apples because it is as per plan.
Speaker:When a client might just reach out, that's when it can get a little bit confusing.
Speaker:And then
Speaker:typically I would
Speaker:say
Speaker:more
Speaker:than
Speaker:75
Speaker:percent of the time it's just who is the lowest price.
Speaker:I'm going to try and put my switch in the hat on for a second because
Speaker:I certainly don't want to come across it where poopooing architects
Speaker:and designers for running a tender process, because I guess I get it.
Speaker:I understand intellectually the reason why they would do it.
Speaker:They obviously have their
Speaker:clients.
Speaker:best interest in mind, particularly
Speaker:in this current climate
Speaker:where prices have
Speaker:been a bit volatile or they
Speaker:have settled recently.
Speaker:I do understand why someone would go to tender,
Speaker:but I kind of feel
Speaker:like in our current market I
Speaker:think if we want to start thinking about builders as professional
Speaker:outfits or professional
Speaker:business
Speaker:owners, then I think we need to be leaning in on builders.
Speaker:For their experience,
Speaker:because they're at the coalface
Speaker:of
Speaker:costing and I don't personally feel that the tender process really values
Speaker:the builders in that in that process.
Speaker:No, and I know that we've had comments on that in the past, and
Speaker:I think we'll get to that in a
Speaker:second,
Speaker:I think
Speaker:then we've got like, what I refer to as a negotiated tender, I
Speaker:don't know what you'd call it,
Speaker:um,
Speaker:yeah, ECI,
Speaker:bring the builder in early, and that is just working as a
Speaker:collaboration, so you're there from the
Speaker:start.
Speaker:and you get a big concept plan to price it out then.
Speaker:and then
Speaker:you work all the way
Speaker:along until
Speaker:you work as part of that team to get the project to site.
Speaker:think it also
Speaker:feels that the builder is valued
Speaker:for their time.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:and then generally paid for their
Speaker:time just installed on the project.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:Uh, and it's
Speaker:something that
Speaker:I started doing in probably 2018, I would say, I don't know when you did your
Speaker:first.
Speaker:I would say Jesse Glass Scott from G LX kind of clued me
Speaker:into this whole paid thing.
Speaker:And I reckon it would've been a similar time, 2019.
Speaker:Maybe.
Speaker:And I think the first time I did it was
Speaker:about 1500 bucks.
Speaker:And I thought, whoa, this is, this is how could, this is unreal.
Speaker:do see
Speaker:value
Speaker:though,
Speaker:uh,
Speaker:in clients and architects
Speaker:talking to builders early on.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:More than one.
Speaker:I would
Speaker:always
Speaker:suggest
Speaker:three.
Speaker:It should,
Speaker:be treated
Speaker:like
Speaker:a
Speaker:tender where you find
Speaker:three builders and you find who you're
Speaker:gonna work with the best.
Speaker:I yeah, I personally always say
Speaker:to
Speaker:clients is like, I'm
Speaker:not for everyone.
Speaker:You need to find the person you work best with and that is
Speaker:It's a relationship
Speaker:with it.
Speaker:We're
Speaker:signing this
Speaker:off for
Speaker:10
Speaker:years.
Speaker:We're part of your family.
Speaker:It's a marriage.
Speaker:Yeah, The prices are all going to be quite similar.
Speaker:We all, the good builders use a lot of the same trades or the same products.
Speaker:It can't differentiate
Speaker:too
Speaker:much.
Speaker:So, And I
Speaker:think
Speaker:when you're
Speaker:at, when you're
Speaker:operating in the
Speaker:same space, too
Speaker:so say if you
Speaker:me
Speaker:and mark from MBH all went for the same project I would argue that within KUI,
Speaker:you know
Speaker:prices would all be the same.
Speaker:but we all operate
Speaker:a bit differently
Speaker:You know
Speaker:Mark,
Speaker:the Yoda of building, you know, he's
Speaker:quite
Speaker:methodical and quite measured in his approach to things.
Speaker:You and I are quite.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:you're a bit younger.
Speaker:A
Speaker:bit.
Speaker:Well, that's sorry, Mark.
Speaker:That's not age Mark.
Speaker:He's not that much younger than me.
Speaker:He's old.
Speaker:I'm not that much
Speaker:younger than you.
Speaker:No, but do you know what I mean?
Speaker:I'm using that as an
Speaker:example.
Speaker:Like I feel like it's all
Speaker:about getting that
Speaker:personal connection with that builder.
Speaker:So hey, getting that
Speaker:relationship is really important.
Speaker:Now,
Speaker:I know our
Speaker:current process and I think yours and, you know, let's use Mark as an example.
Speaker:we've spoken about that on a previous podcast about Hull Reconstruction.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:Our process
Speaker:now is
Speaker:quite similar where we'll do,
Speaker:I would say,
Speaker:like a reasonably high level estimate, where we'll do a
Speaker:little bit of work for a lower
Speaker:fee.
Speaker:And it's at that point where
Speaker:I
Speaker:feel that
Speaker:clients and
Speaker:architects should get two or three builders in.
Speaker:Just to pressure test the design and budget, not just from what I'm
Speaker:saying, but maybe what you're saying and what someone else is saying.
Speaker:And from that point, you've actually had an opportunity to chat with the builders,
Speaker:get their
Speaker:take on the project and any limitations or any advice or and
Speaker:changes or anything like that.
Speaker:And then you can all move forward confidently knowing that
Speaker:you're all kind of going in the
Speaker:right direction.
Speaker:I do have a problem at At that when you're interviewing three builders
Speaker:asking what the price is though,
Speaker:because I've been
Speaker:called out
Speaker:twice recently where, on one project said, Hey, it's going to cost you 1.
Speaker:3 million for this
Speaker:build.
Speaker:And they're like, that's a bit more than what we wanted to
Speaker:spend I'm like, that's okay.
Speaker:I'm just telling you what I think is going to cost.
Speaker:Because that's what you've asked me the question and then what
Speaker:I'd later found out is that
Speaker:two other builders have said, Oh,
Speaker:750 to
Speaker:800. But
Speaker:then they're like, Oh, why are
Speaker:you so much
Speaker:more expensive?
Speaker:And I'm like, Hey, I
Speaker:haven't put a number
Speaker:against it.
Speaker:I'm just telling you what I
Speaker:think.
Speaker:I miss out on
Speaker:the job, the other
Speaker:two builders
Speaker:get a
Speaker:look
Speaker:in.
Speaker:They then
Speaker:do their running the numbers, and
Speaker:you know what they ended up at the
Speaker:exact same number at what I
Speaker:said,
Speaker:but I was the upfront and honest one, the other
Speaker:two just didn't
Speaker:know what they
Speaker:didn't know,
Speaker:And
Speaker:then all of a
Speaker:sudden I miss out on
Speaker:the project, so now you
Speaker:have
Speaker:this issue is like, do,
Speaker:the, and I've spoken about this and
Speaker:it sounds bad.
Speaker:you play the game and low ball it
Speaker:to get in?
Speaker:and then deal with
Speaker:the consequence later, or do you run the honest
Speaker:approach and potentially miss out on projects
Speaker:Because at the
Speaker:moment, I would love
Speaker:another project starting and one of those
Speaker:projects went to site at the number I, said it was going to start at
Speaker:actually,
Speaker:I would have been under.
Speaker:Yeah, i, totally
Speaker:hear what you're saying.
Speaker:I mean, and I think at the end of the day, you and I both would
Speaker:approach honesty first, like
Speaker:and that's what I go back to is like, I
Speaker:can sleep at night.
Speaker:Yeah,
Speaker:exactly.
Speaker:Look,
Speaker:I'm not trying to, you know, sugar coat anything or try and make us look all
Speaker:rosy and nice, but I personally feel
Speaker:that honesty
Speaker:straight up front That is the
Speaker:way to go.
Speaker:And if someone
Speaker:is low
Speaker:balling to get in and telling you what you want to hear, what
Speaker:kind of relationship?
Speaker:I just think, and that's when I have the
Speaker:complete
Speaker:trust in
Speaker:architects and they should be able
Speaker:to
Speaker:decipher through that.
Speaker:They should be able to go, why are you so much lower?
Speaker:Yeah, yeah, That's a good point.
Speaker:And that
Speaker:I, I, so I would say like
Speaker:we,
Speaker:put on,
Speaker:we
Speaker:we, we've You've got to get better
Speaker:at building architects
Speaker:off because we,
Speaker:both believe that sometimes the way we talk
Speaker:comes across as if we
Speaker:don't, But
Speaker:I,
Speaker:that's where I really rely
Speaker:on the
Speaker:really good architects to be like, Hey, why are these
Speaker:two so
Speaker:different
Speaker:to compare to Matt
Speaker:is Matt too
Speaker:expensive
Speaker:or are
Speaker:these guys
Speaker:low
Speaker:balling
Speaker:it?
Speaker:We need to do some
Speaker:more of them like investigating.
Speaker:I would say that 95% percent of architects and designers that we deal
Speaker:with have honest conversations with
Speaker:clients.
Speaker:I'd say 100%.
Speaker:The bonds we bring
Speaker:into what we work with.
Speaker:We've already got that.
Speaker:we've able to,
Speaker:I think we're both very good at finding whether we're going to align or not.
Speaker:Agree.
Speaker:I was having a conversation with someone this morning on the way
Speaker:here though of an experience that they're having at the moment.
Speaker:Now, I understand at the moment work is a bit thin across every facet
Speaker:of construction from design all the way through to construction.
Speaker:And
Speaker:a friend of mine said, the architect said to him, I'll maybe hold off telling
Speaker:the client your opinion on cost Right.
Speaker:Now, because I don't think that their budget is going to allow what I've drawn.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:And it kind of almost
Speaker:makes me feel that that's not the right way forward.
Speaker:And again, I'm not saying that this is
Speaker:something that architects do at all.
Speaker:So please, you know, don't assume
Speaker:that that's what I'm saying, I think that there are still people from both sides,
Speaker:builders and architects who want to just
Speaker:try and get a project into their funnel and hope that on the
Speaker:other side, the clients find more
Speaker:money.
Speaker:When we're asking for more money, these people are building with 1.
Speaker:5 million dollars and I always feel guilty being like,
Speaker:Can you get an extra 200, thousand dollars?
Speaker:Like, yeah, that's not a small amount of
Speaker:money.
Speaker:No, it's not.
Speaker:It's not.
Speaker:It's not.
Speaker:But I feel that's where, honesty, straight up.
Speaker:And if it means that you and I miss out on a project, And it does go to site for 1.
Speaker:7 when we said it's going to be 1.
Speaker:7 and they want us around 1.
Speaker:5, then that's okay.
Speaker:I feel that that's
Speaker:okay.
Speaker:Yeah,
Speaker:I totally agree.
Speaker:I'm actually gonna poop who on build is here.
Speaker:because I think what happens is at a moment is there's a lot of education
Speaker:out there for builders that you can go find very quickly how to
Speaker:run this pre construction process.
Speaker:And so you do a two day course and all of a sudden you know, an expert in
Speaker:it.
Speaker:But what we've always spoken about is you don't know what you don't
Speaker:know.
Speaker:Now
Speaker:I
Speaker:think that that has also ruined it for builders
Speaker:because they've done
Speaker:this course and hey,
Speaker:we're going to charge, but we don't know a
Speaker:process.
Speaker:to actually make this work.
Speaker:And it comes back to
Speaker:hurt us where I've spoken to some
Speaker:architects
Speaker:who have been
Speaker:So
Speaker:burnt by
Speaker:the process, and I totally
Speaker:wouldn't.
Speaker:be the
Speaker:same in their position.
Speaker:Uh, they don't want
Speaker:to do this
Speaker:anymore
Speaker:because they're like, Oh,
Speaker:we've,
Speaker:engaged this builder and another one, and they didn't
Speaker:get back to us, and the
Speaker:price they gave
Speaker:was
Speaker:half a million under budget
Speaker:and
Speaker:it just went to shit.
Speaker:and then
Speaker:I'm like, yeah, totally
Speaker:respect that you don't want to go down that
Speaker:process, but don't put the rest of us who actually
Speaker:have really solid foundational processes
Speaker:in that
Speaker:basket.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:I, agree.
Speaker:And I
Speaker:think there's probably a podcast episode in
Speaker:how we feel that, uh, you know, should be running it.
Speaker:And look,
Speaker:I'm all
Speaker:for
Speaker:builders.
Speaker:getting paid for their time in pre construction 100%, but I think that there
Speaker:needs to be value in the information that they're bringing to the table.
Speaker:You've
Speaker:got to be willing to give
Speaker:your information.
Speaker:So that's what you're there to do.
Speaker:So
Speaker:you can't be guarded of all your
Speaker:knowledge.
Speaker:You're there to consult and give
Speaker:the information.
Speaker:I'm
Speaker:going to say
Speaker:something that if you're consulting, you should also have a private
Speaker:indemnity insurance to protect your, because
Speaker:you are
Speaker:essentially
Speaker:you're consulting.
Speaker:You have it.
Speaker:You have to have
Speaker:it,
Speaker:um, because
Speaker:you're providing advice
Speaker:on the building.
Speaker:So you, you want to
Speaker:indemnify
Speaker:yourself.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I
Speaker:need to
Speaker:protect myself, like we're, the
Speaker:buildings we're working on aren't
Speaker:simple
Speaker:and there are
Speaker:things
Speaker:that we've, we,
Speaker:might get wrong.
Speaker:So.
Speaker:it's a small amount a year
Speaker:to cover ourselves.
Speaker:At least I know that I
Speaker:can sleep.
Speaker:I was just thinking as we were having a chat right now, there's two builders,
Speaker:you know, talking from one side of the table, like, I know I know we've
Speaker:talked about this before when we had Scott on, but I actually think that would be
Speaker:a great opportunity, you know, in, in a.
Speaker:really respectful way to bring in a couple of architects to hear
Speaker:their side of the story and get
Speaker:their thoughts on how we can run it
Speaker:better.
Speaker:I 100 percent think that the tender process is
Speaker:broken.
Speaker:the space that we operate in.
Speaker:and I 100
Speaker:percent
Speaker:feel as more and more builders
Speaker:start to value their time and bring valuable information
Speaker:to the pre construction.
Speaker:process that if architects want to go to tender, And it's going to get
Speaker:really, really expensive for owners.
Speaker:Because
Speaker:three builders are probably going to want to charge anywhere between
Speaker:five to ten thousand dollars
Speaker:each
Speaker:to get a price.
Speaker:you had a comment the other day
Speaker:where you, where I think someone said that, uh, why are
Speaker:you charging for your time?
Speaker:Now I'll put it this way.
Speaker:As
Speaker:If I let's flick it on architects.
Speaker:and again, we've had, we've got
Speaker:ones we work with a totally okay
Speaker:with
Speaker:us charging for our time.
Speaker:And we do not make
Speaker:money off this process,
Speaker:I would say that if
Speaker:the
Speaker:project doesn't go to site, maybe
Speaker:lose out on 20, 30 grand of our time.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:it Would be a
Speaker:very close to estimate.
Speaker:We've we've run some numbers and we feel that it costs us anywhere
Speaker:between 20 to 30k to cost a project.
Speaker:and
Speaker:your, at the end of the day charging maximum you might be able
Speaker:to get out of is 10 000 across
Speaker:a one
Speaker:and a
Speaker:half
Speaker:year consulting period.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So we're, we're about that 12 000 to 13,
Speaker:000. at the higher end and it goes down to 9, 000 but yes, but the
Speaker:value that clients get from that.
Speaker:And I know it's me sitting on the builder side saying this,
Speaker:but as soon as the
Speaker:relationships become transactional, there's an expectation from both sides
Speaker:that there's deliverables Totally.
Speaker:and we're quite
Speaker:clear with what
Speaker:those deliverables are.
Speaker:And we're becoming more and more
Speaker:clear
Speaker:about what the expectations are in that precom process.
Speaker:Now for us to give
Speaker:someone a ballpark
Speaker:right now with our current process.
Speaker:It
Speaker:costs 800.
Speaker:Yeah, okay.
Speaker:And I feel it's at that point
Speaker:there, where there should be three builders, all giving their opinion on
Speaker:cost, and they all should
Speaker:be charging in between 500 to
Speaker:800 to give that opinion on
Speaker:cost.
Speaker:And then it's
Speaker:about
Speaker:the architect and the clients deciding who's going to be part of the
Speaker:team.
Speaker:I feel
Speaker:that that's a really fair way of doing it.
Speaker:don't disagree.
Speaker:I think you need to, there's tools out there that you
Speaker:can use.
Speaker:You can look at past projects.
Speaker:You can Grab your own data to come up with that.
Speaker:Um, I think it's really important that, If you have
Speaker:someone and you're paying
Speaker:them, you've got them engaged.
Speaker:You can hold them to deadlines.
Speaker:you can hold, you can hold, them accountable.
Speaker:If you're not paying
Speaker:anyone, how can you hold them
Speaker:accountable?
Speaker:Because they've got
Speaker:other things
Speaker:that they're
Speaker:getting paid to
Speaker:do, which becomes more important.
Speaker:I would also
Speaker:argue, how can you then trust
Speaker:the data they're
Speaker:giving you?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Like if, if, if you're just getting spat out.
Speaker:an estimate with, you know, a whole bunch of different line items that
Speaker:they've probably just drawn from past experience and, you know, have
Speaker:they done the takeoffs correctly?
Speaker:Have they done this correctly?
Speaker:Have they brought their trades into it?
Speaker:Like
Speaker:I
Speaker:know
Speaker:that our process involves site visits for all our trades.
Speaker:So
Speaker:my trades are invested, you know, they know that
Speaker:we're part of the solution to get this project to site and that they're
Speaker:the only one looking at that project.
Speaker:So they're
Speaker:invested.
Speaker:They know that their time is not wasted.
Speaker:So there's two issues I have with
Speaker:the
Speaker:tender.
Speaker:If it's not
Speaker:on the plans and the
Speaker:architect misses it,
Speaker:which
Speaker:they're going to
Speaker:miss things, that's normal.
Speaker:Like I,
Speaker:they can't get
Speaker:everything right.
Speaker:We're human, right?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:So
Speaker:I'm not
Speaker:putting
Speaker:it in my
Speaker:estimate because that's not what is as per plan.
Speaker:That's not what is quoted.
Speaker:You will
Speaker:get a variation
Speaker:on site
Speaker:and most likely it's going to hold up your project.
Speaker:There's also two, we will
Speaker:probably find a more efficient way of building something
Speaker:that's going to save you money.
Speaker:I would
Speaker:say that during, just having a builder on board,
Speaker:will get your money
Speaker:back with
Speaker:a click of a finger once you have any discussion with an engineer,
Speaker:And then also when we talk
Speaker:about performance so they ask an optimization.
Speaker:So,
Speaker:within
Speaker:that conversation, like, we
Speaker:had one recently where we designed all the steel
Speaker:beams out of
Speaker:the project.
Speaker:There's 30 grand
Speaker:savings we've
Speaker:just saved you a ton of money.
Speaker:which in a tender process, would have just been flicked out,
Speaker:stamped, hey, here's the engineering design to that, build to that.
Speaker:Do you think that there is more opportunity for builders operating
Speaker:in the high performance space to add more value to that tender process?
Speaker:I'm
Speaker:gonna
Speaker:respectfully
Speaker:say no,
Speaker:but
Speaker:can
Speaker:you see where I'm coming from
Speaker:though?
Speaker:Yeah,
Speaker:no, I totally agree
Speaker:because the tool of like, say for example, PHP Yeah, you can
Speaker:be used as a costing tool, but you need
Speaker:to know how to use it.
Speaker:Exactly So if you're
Speaker:using
Speaker:it for the first time,
Speaker:no, definitely not.
Speaker:You need
Speaker:to have someone like
Speaker:Cameron
Speaker:who knows how to use it to have those conversations with you.
Speaker:Yeah, I think you
Speaker:have
Speaker:to have
Speaker:done maybe one
Speaker:certified
Speaker:passive
Speaker:House first to be able to understand
Speaker:that and the detail that needs to go into it.
Speaker:So once you understand how it can be
Speaker:constructed, Then you can understand the back
Speaker:end
Speaker:how that all works.
Speaker:And I just did the
Speaker:Passive House training for designers and I'm going to be straight out, it
Speaker:was a complete waste of time.
Speaker:Because I'd already felt
Speaker:that I had
Speaker:that knowledge through working with Cameron so many times and we've built four
Speaker:of them, that I felt that Hey, we kind of weren't learning anything new where
Speaker:what we're there to do is not run the
Speaker:PHPP numbers.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:We're there
Speaker:to run,
Speaker:hey, if we're going to increase this amount of insulation to this,
Speaker:what's the cost against that?
Speaker:Yeah, We're not there to tell them what to include.
Speaker:, but
Speaker:I feel
Speaker:like
Speaker:there's, you know, just say wall build ups or double glazed versus
Speaker:triple glazed like right there, there could be 10 or 15 grand, like
Speaker:right there.
Speaker:I've
Speaker:got one at
Speaker:the
Speaker:moment
Speaker:and it's, we're in Brunswick
Speaker:now It's literally around the corner where
Speaker:the heating 0.
Speaker:2,
Speaker:if we went triple glazed and they might be chasing passive house certification
Speaker:So they're going to go, we need to get
Speaker:that, triple
Speaker:glaze, where I'm like, do we need to
Speaker:go certified
Speaker:to get you no extra value in money for that
Speaker:extra cost
Speaker:or
Speaker:alternatively, okay, well let's put double glazing in and that's a net result of
Speaker:10 saving.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:Can we build
Speaker:up
Speaker:those numbers somewhere else?
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:Totally.
Speaker:Can we, insulate
Speaker:the service cavity is that going to get,
Speaker:yeah,
Speaker:so
Speaker:this is
Speaker:where I was kind
Speaker:of
Speaker:saying, like, I feel.
Speaker:like in performance construction world,
Speaker:managing thermal bridges, managing out steel, like insulating cavities or
Speaker:not, 90 mils vs 140 frames, internal barriers vs no internal barriers.
Speaker:Like there's easy grabs there.
Speaker:and
Speaker:it would be really interesting
Speaker:to
Speaker:get, say, Chris from
Speaker:PrimeBuild on to have a chat
Speaker:because I know he runs his pre con really
Speaker:tightly
Speaker:and has been doing it for a while to kind of get his understanding
Speaker:of the areas that he looks
Speaker:at
Speaker:because it's not just, I will remove some joinery, Or change the
Speaker:cladding, like
Speaker:there are other
Speaker:things that I think a builder
Speaker:can bring to the table
Speaker:that is
Speaker:really valuable and can save that fee
Speaker:before it
Speaker:gets to site.
Speaker:I
Speaker:think builders
Speaker:also need to understand they're not architects, they're not there to design.
Speaker:100%. And I think that is
Speaker:where the issue lies,
Speaker:that
Speaker:architects are
Speaker:damn good at
Speaker:designing, Yeah.
Speaker:they're creative, they push boundaries, they want to push boundaries
Speaker:and as builders we need to respect that and don't
Speaker:kick back.
Speaker:We need to go, hey,
Speaker:uh, how can
Speaker:we actually get what you want?
Speaker:We'll
Speaker:discuss
Speaker:the buildability and
Speaker:structure.
Speaker:You give us the brief.
Speaker:Let's now
Speaker:make this work together because
Speaker:I get bored
Speaker:doing the same thing all the time.
Speaker:So Greg challenged me,
Speaker:but we've got to do it within a way
Speaker:that is
Speaker:going to make
Speaker:it work.
Speaker:So we might have to compromise it a little bit
Speaker:here and
Speaker:there, but we want to also
Speaker:make
Speaker:sure the
Speaker:architect is trying to get their design
Speaker:across the I
Speaker:if
Speaker:we're asked our opinion on
Speaker:something, sure.
Speaker:But I don't think it's our role in design.
Speaker:You know, I have this
Speaker:conversation with someone on my team in pre construction all the time.
Speaker:It's
Speaker:not our role
Speaker:to
Speaker:design this.
Speaker:It's
Speaker:our role to
Speaker:talk about
Speaker:implications on cost and performance, but it's not our role to design
Speaker:we
Speaker:had one
Speaker:recently where there was bare stone cladding and it was super expensive
Speaker:to install and the system behind it, the bare stone looks really well
Speaker:priced and the cladding
Speaker:itself and everything behind the structure and system is super
Speaker:expensive.
Speaker:So we're
Speaker:like, we're
Speaker:trying to do
Speaker:volume management.
Speaker:So
Speaker:we will go to the client
Speaker:and keep the, we'll go to the architect
Speaker:and keep the client out of the conversation.
Speaker:for a second and say,
Speaker:Hey,
Speaker:this is expensive.
Speaker:Are you open to changing this?
Speaker:These are just some other suggestions,
Speaker:but that might be something that might be
Speaker:non
Speaker:negotiable.
Speaker:So we're not going to touch
Speaker:on that.
Speaker:So
Speaker:you do, it, you can do
Speaker:it,
Speaker:respectfully.
Speaker:And if you're
Speaker:wanting
Speaker:to, if the
Speaker:architect he was, they would pretty much
Speaker:say, Hey, we need some volume management options,
Speaker:have a crack at it.
Speaker:So
Speaker:we're
Speaker:like, okay, these
Speaker:are the things
Speaker:we
Speaker:think,
Speaker:but Hey, you've got to
Speaker:come
Speaker:back to
Speaker:us and be like, no, we like, or we don't
Speaker:like.
Speaker:That's
Speaker:an interesting point about the
Speaker:clients that you've just brought up there.
Speaker:and I think, you know, there are potential clients that
Speaker:are listening to this podcast.
Speaker:There aren't going to be
Speaker:conversations that the builders and the design team, and the
Speaker:thermal modelers and the engineer, Those conversations are going to
Speaker:happen,
Speaker:and you might not be sitting in the
Speaker:room.
Speaker:Yeah, Because it's
Speaker:almost not worth your time to sit there because you're kind of going to
Speaker:be asking questions and catching up.
Speaker:So, you know, please don't think that we're excluding you from
Speaker:these conversations intentionally.
Speaker:Well, maybe
Speaker:it is
Speaker:intentional, but it's not,
Speaker:throwing
Speaker:anyone
Speaker:under the bus
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:and then being like, Hey,
Speaker:architect, that
Speaker:cladding is
Speaker:So expensive.
Speaker:How about we look at this?
Speaker:to the clients?
Speaker:like, why did you pick an expensive cladding?
Speaker:The architect's just trying to do their job,
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:so we can't
Speaker:like, you've got to be
Speaker:respectful to them as well.
Speaker:100%.
Speaker:what we need to understand
Speaker:here is this is a process.
Speaker:when you start out here
Speaker:and
Speaker:I'm drawing on my little,
Speaker:my, my,
Speaker:book here, You start out
Speaker:here
Speaker:and you kind of go
Speaker:this way and that way
Speaker:and
Speaker:this way and
Speaker:that way.
Speaker:And then you end up over here and it might be slightly different from
Speaker:your original idea of what that structure is going to look
Speaker:like.
Speaker:But that is the process.
Speaker:Yeah And it's got all that
Speaker:IP from every single person within that process,
Speaker:adding their
Speaker:information and their thoughts on the project.
Speaker:As long as every single person in that team is making that
Speaker:project king or queen
Speaker:and everything that you're doing is for the project.
Speaker:The,
Speaker:project is a champion.
Speaker:everyone needs to put their ego aside and
Speaker:yes,
Speaker:the
Speaker:architect wants to design something awesome.
Speaker:Uh, yes, we want to build it in a way that we want to build it.
Speaker:Sometimes we've got to give up on that and
Speaker:that's okay.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:The
Speaker:client's
Speaker:going to want best
Speaker:value for money, but it's about working together to get the ultimate result.
Speaker:And that's how you get the best projects.
Speaker:is how the projects
Speaker:run this most smoothest on site.
Speaker:I don't know if that's the greatest English, that's how
Speaker:there's a higher level of trust
Speaker:is how it's,
Speaker:the collaboration
Speaker:just makes life so easy.
Speaker:And I'll also, I've got
Speaker:a note
Speaker:here
Speaker:that
Speaker:the
Speaker:thing is once you're
Speaker:on site,
Speaker:there's a, and there's an issue that arises
Speaker:because all the issues
Speaker:arise at the
Speaker:start of
Speaker:a project, in
Speaker:demolition
Speaker:or in the In the ground.
Speaker:You've already got that trust, you've already got
Speaker:that report that
Speaker:you've developed.
Speaker:So when those issues come,
Speaker:you're like,
Speaker:Hey,
Speaker:this was, we spoke about this
Speaker:a lot earlier
Speaker:that this might be an issue and we've come across
Speaker:it.
Speaker:And
Speaker:it's now
Speaker:a problem,
Speaker:They're like,
Speaker:okay,
Speaker:cool.
Speaker:Thanks for being upfront and transparent compared
Speaker:to if it's a
Speaker:negotiator.
Speaker:if it's a tender process,
Speaker:it's
Speaker:like
Speaker:the client.
Speaker:It's like,
Speaker:is this really a thing where you're
Speaker:just
Speaker:trying to get
Speaker:me for extra Like there's already
Speaker:that
Speaker:question.
Speaker:You
Speaker:haven't developed
Speaker:that complete form of trust yet.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I mean,
Speaker:it's, you almost
Speaker:can
Speaker:like split it.
Speaker:to There's two phases of building.
Speaker:In fact, there's two parts of building.
Speaker:There's the relationship building and then there's the actual building of the home.
Speaker:And I feel if you miss
Speaker:the relationship building, then you are setting
Speaker:yourself up for problems
Speaker:it's
Speaker:how things are going to go wrong.
Speaker:And
Speaker:I just think we need to
Speaker:value
Speaker:each
Speaker:other's time and everyone knows their role.
Speaker:All the architects we know and we work with have never said anything like this,
Speaker:but you had a few comments recently.
Speaker:When we did a post about, um, working together as a team, and the architects
Speaker:and on a model to architects kick back and practically said that
Speaker:build it shouldn't be charging
Speaker:for their
Speaker:time, that that's what a waste of like, what a waste of client resources,
Speaker:blah, blah, blah.
Speaker:Now, I'm
Speaker:going to
Speaker:put it back
Speaker:on those
Speaker:architects that think
Speaker:that way
Speaker:and say, what if we had a process
Speaker:of a client goes
Speaker:out
Speaker:to
Speaker:three architects
Speaker:and goes,
Speaker:hey, design me
Speaker:all the
Speaker:concepts.
Speaker:and then when
Speaker:I'll pick, once you've done all
Speaker:your concepts and we can compare,
Speaker:we're
Speaker:going to now pick
Speaker:our.
Speaker:Architect we want to work with.
Speaker:and guarantee no architect is
Speaker:going to go through
Speaker:that
Speaker:process.
Speaker:There's no difference
Speaker:from the builder process
Speaker:spending their time
Speaker:estimating
Speaker:it
Speaker:and then coming up with a
Speaker:cost to then pick the builders.
Speaker:I want to work with.
Speaker:I would also, maybe, and I'm
Speaker:I'm gonna be
Speaker:completely naive here, but I would argue
Speaker:that getting
Speaker:a solid estimate together
Speaker:could take 50
Speaker:to a hundred hours more, way more I mean 80, 80.
Speaker:to 150.
Speaker:But then I would argue for to get a sketch design together and, and I'm
Speaker:happy to be called out here by designers
Speaker:and architects,
Speaker:I
Speaker:would say that it take less time to get a concept together.
Speaker:yeah I agree, and
Speaker:it, that's also not including the
Speaker:value
Speaker:management, but then you could ask, argue with the architect about this,
Speaker:the tweaking of the concept, but it's probably the same amount of time in there.
Speaker:it's also the cost where, like, We pay external people to help
Speaker:us get the estimate to make sure our numbers are correct.
Speaker:You work with
Speaker:an estimator, I
Speaker:work with estimator and quantity surveyor,
Speaker:and
Speaker:so there's an
Speaker:expense from our
Speaker:end
Speaker:to get people to run the numbers to make sure we're running them correctly.
Speaker:for the client and for the architect.
Speaker:You know, that's a really interesting point because, you know, we,
Speaker:like just talking on costs and maybe why we need to charge, like I have an
Speaker:internal estimator and I have someone working full time in pre construction,
Speaker:quite
Speaker:often.
Speaker:we do sense check it to an external estimator.
Speaker:Current, right now, we're looking at at another
Speaker:estimating, or sorry, modeling
Speaker:tool,
Speaker:company and tool, who can actually build the model in 3D, which
Speaker:gives us bill of quantities and a model that the team can use on
Speaker:site.
Speaker:this
Speaker:is all
Speaker:encompassed in that price that we charge clients.
Speaker:So we're actually
Speaker:investing time and energy and money to make sure that we're costing it
Speaker:correctly so we
Speaker:can make money so I don't go
Speaker:bankrupt.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And then we're
Speaker:getting
Speaker:a really great, efficient, construction process on site.
Speaker:What have you said before?
Speaker:The best project is the client gets their home built correctly.
Speaker:Yep, The architects get to see the design and their company and
Speaker:their
Speaker:projects profitable from their side.
Speaker:Yeah, And the builder
Speaker:gets a
Speaker:project that is challenging, but also
Speaker:they get to walk
Speaker:away making a profit.
Speaker:That's
Speaker:the whole idea of running a business.
Speaker:That
Speaker:is the
Speaker:ultimate project and
Speaker:everyone is happy
Speaker:Then also everyone has to give up a little
Speaker:bit.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:100%. Look, and I
Speaker:guarantee that all those architects and designers out there would much prefer
Speaker:to see their
Speaker:designs in real life rather than scrunched up and put in a bin in the corner.
Speaker:Because that's the reality of what's happening
Speaker:at the moment.
Speaker:I would love to know
Speaker:how many
Speaker:dreams have been scrunched up and thrown into the corner.
Speaker:I've had three since November.
Speaker:So that's three within
Speaker:four months.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:So what's
Speaker:the solution?
Speaker:Like
Speaker:I feel, and again, we
Speaker:would love
Speaker:to
Speaker:get um, an architect
Speaker:sitting here because we know
Speaker:that this is completely one sided right now.
Speaker:I
Speaker:think it's also, let's go
Speaker:onto the, the tender process
Speaker:because I can also
Speaker:understand why you would tender.
Speaker:Oh, that's a good point.
Speaker:Because as a builder,
Speaker:like I think that
Speaker:I had a good,
Speaker:chat with a client that's also an
Speaker:architect and they do a lot of
Speaker:public housing systems and they're explaining that because
Speaker:it's for the government,
Speaker:there's no other way you
Speaker:can not do it because it needs to be fair.
Speaker:you need a
Speaker:tender.
Speaker:So the government are getting the best of value for the projects because
Speaker:they're, held accountable by the people.
Speaker:And I understand that
Speaker:to some
Speaker:extent, I still struggle to
Speaker:wrap my
Speaker:head around
Speaker:it.
Speaker:because I'm like, well, what if you could work with
Speaker:someone,
Speaker:give it, get to have an ultimate budget
Speaker:up front and maybe you've got to work to that budget.
Speaker:And then if it doesn't, if
Speaker:it goes over,
Speaker:the project doesn't
Speaker:go ahead.
Speaker:So my understanding is
Speaker:some of these government.
Speaker:Projects
Speaker:though, and correct me if I'm wrong that there is a fee that
Speaker:is charged from the tenders
Speaker:you have to submit your tender
Speaker:of
Speaker:your fee of what it's going to
Speaker:cost.
Speaker:And then
Speaker:they
Speaker:practically
Speaker:pick the lowest fee and go.
Speaker:Well, you're
Speaker:going
Speaker:to now Design it.
Speaker:I'm pretty sure that's how it works, Alright, okay.
Speaker:So you bid you've got to bid
Speaker:for the job It'd be great
Speaker:to have some clarity around that if
Speaker:someone could sort of give us an idea and get some like Yeah.
Speaker:Look, I
Speaker:understand that and I guess when you're talking about spending other people's
Speaker:Like money, when there's more parties involved, I understand
Speaker:in that respect, but we're
Speaker:talking
Speaker:20,
Speaker:30, 40 billion dollar projects.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:yeah.
Speaker:Like
Speaker:they?
Speaker:They, require more
Speaker:collaboration
Speaker:as
Speaker:well.
Speaker:don't they?
Speaker:And
Speaker:I also, well, I agree, but I also feel like
Speaker:there's
Speaker:less
Speaker:emotion attached in the end product.
Speaker:We're talking about dealing with people's homes.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:You know, where,
Speaker:as you said before,
Speaker:like 10 years.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:That's what
Speaker:we are.
Speaker:A 10, 10 years marriage and you know at the end of the day, I want
Speaker:to be having fun conversations with my client, with them telling me
Speaker:how much they love the project rather than say, hey, my door doesn't
Speaker:work anymore or a window's leaking.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:100%.
Speaker:And
Speaker:I think
Speaker:what we also need to,
Speaker:before we keep poo pooing on the tender process,
Speaker:the tender process is a race to the bottom.
Speaker:That's, that's simply all of these.
Speaker:it's builders not knowing how to run their business not knowing their overheads,
Speaker:not knowing what it costs because they're like, Oh, can we get this cheaper?
Speaker:Can we get this cheaper?
Speaker:We don't
Speaker:really know how to
Speaker:estimate
Speaker:So we can just put some random numbers against it and hope for the best.
Speaker:And then they win the tender.
Speaker:And all of a sudden
Speaker:they've missed a lot of stuff
Speaker:because they're
Speaker:not paid for their time
Speaker:because they
Speaker:didn't want to invest
Speaker:the time
Speaker:into understanding the plans and architectural
Speaker:details.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:And also, you know, this is another thing that's come up recently too, because
Speaker:you've talked about profitability, markup and margin and stuff like that.
Speaker:You know, we often get asked
Speaker:by architects,
Speaker:even in the negotiated tender process.
Speaker:What's your
Speaker:builder's margin
Speaker:or profit?
Speaker:And I'm like, okay, well, which one is it?
Speaker:Is it profit?
Speaker:Is it gross?
Speaker:Is it net?
Speaker:Is it
Speaker:markup?
Speaker:Is it Yeah, so, what are we looking at?
Speaker:Are we looking
Speaker:at when all
Speaker:is
Speaker:said and done and the
Speaker:project's finished, what are we trying to
Speaker:get?
Speaker:Or what are
Speaker:we marking
Speaker:up?
Speaker:completely different things.
Speaker:Now I will go on the
Speaker:record here and say that
Speaker:we mark
Speaker:up our projects 25
Speaker:because
Speaker:I
Speaker:know
Speaker:my overheads,
Speaker:And I know what
Speaker:net profit I want to go
Speaker:to.
Speaker:And
Speaker:it's probably the same for every builder.
Speaker:So I'm going to have
Speaker:a
Speaker:complete guess at this.
Speaker:You haven't told me.
Speaker:You're probably going to want to run at
Speaker:about a 10 percent overhead
Speaker:and a 15 percent
Speaker:markup for the profit of the
Speaker:project.
Speaker:It's
Speaker:pretty much more than a guess, Yes, it's
Speaker:the same as mine.
Speaker:And, and the other thing
Speaker:that we
Speaker:need to, to to understand too is that
Speaker:where the
Speaker:gross numbers and the net numbers sit too.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:So
Speaker:that's
Speaker:the
Speaker:other thing, And again, we're probably
Speaker:straying just a little bit
Speaker:here.
Speaker:But we don't make 15 percent off a project That's the other thing.
Speaker:No, No, no, no, no,
Speaker:no, This this
Speaker:is,
Speaker:this
Speaker:is the, this is
Speaker:the thing where it really, you really need to understand what that then builds up.
Speaker:And I reckon that's probably maybe even a conversation or another time, Yeah.
Speaker:we've actually got some numbers that we're referring to and rather than
Speaker:just, you know, spitting off things.
Speaker:So I guess
Speaker:my comment to architects out there is if you are going to ask the question,
Speaker:be quite specific about what information you're trying to understand.
Speaker:Because me
Speaker:saying,
Speaker:well,
Speaker:we put a 25 percent margin on it and then you sort of reverse
Speaker:engineer that and go, well, that's a
Speaker:huge number.
Speaker:go.
Speaker:Well,
Speaker:businesses need money to run.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:We have
Speaker:cars.
Speaker:we have employees, we have overheads, we have bookkeepers, we have estimators, we
Speaker:have all these
Speaker:kinds of things
Speaker:insurances,
Speaker:Insurances.
Speaker:There's a hundred million ounces.
Speaker:Now, my markup.
Speaker:is
Speaker:going to be a lot
Speaker:different
Speaker:to someone who is a bag it on builder
Speaker:markup
Speaker:because
Speaker:I'm obviously not on the tools.
Speaker:However, their
Speaker:carpentry rate is
Speaker:going to
Speaker:be higher.
Speaker:their carpentry rate is going to be higher.
Speaker:Exactly.
Speaker:So you need
Speaker:to
Speaker:kind of look at everything on balance when.
Speaker:you are
Speaker:using that as
Speaker:a key factor
Speaker:in deciding where you think that project is from a cost point of view.
Speaker:Yep,
Speaker:Because I think that it
Speaker:can be a little bit misleading.
Speaker:And you're playing with fire.
Speaker:If you're engaging someone that doesn't
Speaker:understand this,
Speaker:there is a
Speaker:high
Speaker:risk
Speaker:that
Speaker:you're going to either one, the project's not going to be profitable for them,
Speaker:so they're going to lose interest.
Speaker:So then they're
Speaker:going to be cutting
Speaker:corners to get it across the line.
Speaker:Yep.
Speaker:Or, and
Speaker:most likely in the current
Speaker:climate,
Speaker:they're just going to go bankrupt.
Speaker:Yes.
Speaker:I think as an industry where we're talking, we're going to organize an
Speaker:event later this year As an industry, we're going to have a conversation with
Speaker:everyone and bring everyone into the room and understand how this process and
Speaker:how architects and builders can align.
Speaker:Because I fear they're not on the same page.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I think.
Speaker:That is a huge issue because we both want the same results and we just need to work
Speaker:together.
Speaker:Do you know what would be even interesting, more interesting, is
Speaker:actually bringing clients into that and understanding what they want?
Speaker:Because do clients want a
Speaker:tender?
Speaker:comes down to education because if you speak to someone they don't
Speaker:know about and negotiate a tender.
Speaker:they're of course going to say, hey, I want a tender.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I think the thing you, it needs to start with the education.
Speaker:Between builders and architects who then can educate the client
Speaker:because
Speaker:they, they don't know about construction or they've gone through and done
Speaker:in a certain way in a past time.
Speaker:And
Speaker:that's how it worked for them And seemed to work well.
Speaker:But now we don't speak to
Speaker:the builder.
Speaker:So once you start to dissect it from the client's perspective.
Speaker:Did it actually really work?
Speaker:Yeah, I mean, I feel we've had many successful Negotiator tenders
Speaker:And the things we get wrong in the negotiator And I was also I was
Speaker:also about to say, I've also had negotiated tenders which haven't gone.
Speaker:Well, yeah, you know, and We're always learning from this We,
Speaker:you know, And I think the ones that haven't gone well is when if we go back to
Speaker:that honesty thing is when I haven't been
Speaker:honest.
Speaker:Um, I'm not going to
Speaker:as honest as I probably should have been at the beginning,
Speaker:where maybe I've known that it might've gone over.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:But I was like, Oh, well, let's just see.
Speaker:Where is it because your process, you didn't know your process that
Speaker:well and you've refined it since?
Speaker:I think so.
Speaker:And I also feel
Speaker:that the last couple of years have been quite tricky with, , you
Speaker:know, fluctuations in prices where we were, we gave a price.
Speaker:You know, 12 months before that final price and then we've seen prices go up.
Speaker:and there's
Speaker:inflation at like three and a half percent.
Speaker:And that's
Speaker:not a great
Speaker:experience.
Speaker:for clients.
Speaker:you know, I would love that if we gave an estimate and that's
Speaker:what we'd then contract it on.
Speaker:And I feel, you know, the way that we're approaching it now,
Speaker:using the tools that are available to us, you know, our knowledge
Speaker:past projects and a new tool that we're starting to use, that we can
Speaker:give a pretty accurate estimate.
Speaker:That should.
Speaker:Range of where the project should land.
Speaker:You know, we're also putting in other inputs to accommodate
Speaker:performance construction as well.
Speaker:I know you're using the same tool.
Speaker:Maybe we
Speaker:can talk about it at some other stage,
Speaker:But I actually feel that
Speaker:that's a really great way to pressure test it.
Speaker:And if I go back to what I think
Speaker:the perfect, , process is at that stage, get two or three builders
Speaker:running that process, spend the money,
Speaker:because if you spend the money, you know, you need a good data.
Speaker:You know, you've got to pay for that information.
Speaker:It's at that point, pick one of the builders that you're comfortable with.
Speaker:Because I'd almost guarantee if you, me and Mark all did
Speaker:that process, We'd be within
Speaker:5 percent of each other.
Speaker:our roof is going to be the same.
Speaker:Mechanical ventilation is going to be the same.
Speaker:Uh, whatever, the other trades
Speaker:we use are the same.
Speaker:Now, I'll say this though.
Speaker:as The negotiated tender is in a builder's best
Speaker:interest.
Speaker:And I say that in a way because one,
Speaker:I think that we come in tighter on our numbers because we've
Speaker:kind of got the project, we've just now got to get it to site.
Speaker:So we're respectful and like, Hey guys, come in tight because we really
Speaker:want to get this project to site.
Speaker:But hold on.
Speaker:the other thing is it allows us to schedule in our projects for the
Speaker:future, knowing we're blocking them out when projects are going to be.
Speaker:So you're now on there's a higher chance your project is going to start
Speaker:most likely when you want it to start because we've been able to schedule in
Speaker:and control the cost.
Speaker:the other thing too, which I hopefully would give clients and architects a
Speaker:bit of assurance around this is we're almost hanging our hat on
Speaker:this number, which we haven't dove really really deep
Speaker:into the design.
Speaker:There's no details.
Speaker:But we've had enough experience and we're relying on these industry
Speaker:tools and past projects to recognise that the range that we're giving
Speaker:you is a good realistic number.
Speaker:Now we're going to try fucking hard.
Speaker:To re To get in that band.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Like 100 get in that band because if we're not, then our process is shit.
Speaker:There's no point
Speaker:doing
Speaker:it.
Speaker:and the thing is, you can't as architects, which is really challenging for them, is
Speaker:they can't look at projects in three using and say, Hey, we built This for that.
Speaker:This is what it's gonna cost now.
Speaker:Unfortunately, that luxury is going outta the windows since COVID.
Speaker:And that's really difficult on them because I think with architects,
Speaker:is if they've got a budget of say, $800,000, now they're gonna give a pen
Speaker:and paper and go, where do I start?
Speaker:Because 800, 000 gets you nothing these days.
Speaker:And
Speaker:that's the reality.
Speaker:Well, It doesn't get you as much as
Speaker:it did.
Speaker:But also, the other important thing to note with that point is that the
Speaker:architect's getting the contracted value.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:Not the as built value.
Speaker:Because as builders, we've
Speaker:got, well we've priced it back here and then we've started here, and then we've
Speaker:taken 12 months to build the project.
Speaker:And then we'll do like a post mortem on
Speaker:the project and really understand what that project cost us.
Speaker:So we actually have that real cost of the project,
Speaker:real time, in
Speaker:today's current market.
Speaker:Unfortunately architects don't have that.
Speaker:And Chris Gilbert brings that up
Speaker:too, in the conversation that we've had.
Speaker:that us as builders, if we could plug that data in somewhere,
Speaker:then architects are winning.
Speaker:And maybe that's the solution.
Speaker:I
Speaker:what is working isn't currently working.
Speaker:I think we're all still
Speaker:finding our feet.
Speaker:I think that we have ours pretty well dialed in.
Speaker:But then I've completely flipped my process recently on its head
Speaker:too, because I'm like, well, we can improve on it again, 100%.
Speaker:And I think that's where a good builder will be able to
Speaker:able to
Speaker:Understand the process.
Speaker:A good architect will also be able to question us on our process.
Speaker:with some very clear guided questions on how does your process work?
Speaker:How does it work?
Speaker:I think the most important question an architect can ask
Speaker:is how has your process failed in the past?
Speaker:So then they can start to understand what didn't go wrong So we can now
Speaker:give this project the best chance to go ahead How have you learned from
Speaker:how you were doing things two years ago and what chances have you made?
Speaker:let's test how transparent the builder is and
Speaker:go, oh no, all of our projects are fine and dandy.
Speaker:Well, the reality is, I've had four or five projects in the last
Speaker:two years that haven't got to site
Speaker:because they didn't meet budget.
Speaker:Well, and I'll tell you what, I've also had projects that have gone to
Speaker:site where if I look at, you know,
Speaker:our projected, profitability, it's 12 to 15 percent off where I'd wanted it to be.
Speaker:totally.
Speaker:So,
Speaker:but I think we wrap that up.
Speaker:I think this is our first episode in person, so bear with us
Speaker:for a few episodes to see how we get it.
Speaker:All these will now be on YouTube as well.
Speaker:we're really keen to start spitting out some way better content.
Speaker:Um, we've got some awesome stuff in the pipelines.
Speaker:Around webinars and trying to bring out.
Speaker:little, uh, handbooks.
Speaker:got some ideas that we're going to really start to help build this
Speaker:industry up and not just make it a podcast but make it a big collaboration
Speaker:between everyone.
Speaker:So, yep.
Speaker:And the good news is a lot of this information that we're
Speaker:talking about is going to
Speaker:be free.
Speaker:Yeah, we do need to fund this at some point, , but that's
Speaker:where the sponsors come in
Speaker:if you want to sponsor, reach out to us, Uh, we do have a few lined up
Speaker:that are keen to come on board, so.
Speaker:Awesome.
Speaker:again, want to say a massive thank you to Hit First Hire, yeah,
Speaker:for letting us film here today.
Speaker:Building Better Exchange.
Speaker:Better building Exchange.
Speaker:Better building exchange.
Speaker:See you, Matty.
Speaker:Ciao.
Speaker:That