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Tender vs Negotiated Tender
Episode 5524th March 2025 • Mindful Builder • Matthew Carland and Hamish White
00:00:00 00:37:11

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As builders in the Australian market, there's one recurring theme that keeps rearing its head in our conversations, and that's the tender process. It's akin to a race to the bottom, a mad dash where numbers are thrown around like confetti, and every party involved is crossing fingers, hoping all that time they invested in the tender results in actually getting the contract. 

The reality can sometimes fall short, with tenders not proceeding through to a contract, clients just choosing the cheapest option and hours spent on a project that never comes to fruition.

For those new to the concept, the tender process traditionally involves getting multiple quotes for a project, often by an architect or a client. It's about cost comparisons and attempts to squeeze a project within a budget. We find ourselves questioning the validity of this approach, especially when the emphasis is typically on finding the lowest price rather than the best fit.

In this episode we take a look at how the tender process currently works, and why we recommend the negotiated tender process instead. 

LINKS:

Thanks to Hip Vs Hype for having us

Connect with us on Instagram:  @themindfulbuilderpod

Connect with Hamish:

Instagram:  @sanctumhomes

Website:   www.yoursanctum.com.au/


Connect with Matt: 

Instagram: @carlandconstructions

Website:  www.carlandconstructions.com/

Transcripts

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today, um, we wanted to give a big shout out to, Liam and the team at Hip vs.

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Hype because we're actually

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filming

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at

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the Better Building Exchange in Brunswick.

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And the team there have been

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really

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generous to let us

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use their space

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to

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record

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these podcasts.

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but also for Sustainable Builders Alliance in the past

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as well.

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Oh Yeah, absolutely,

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Yeah, for sure.

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So this is

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this this is

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the same space that we use to do all our

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live events.

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So

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big shout out to Alice

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and Liam, the

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team from hipfirst

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Maddie today

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the topic is tender

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or

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not to tender?

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That is the question.

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so tender, typical

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process where you would the architect or designer goes to three people or

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a client goes to three people and they would then, um, essentially

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find the best price between the three and probably cost compare and

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somewhat try getting apples for apples

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like,

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for like, quote,

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that is not the reality of how this works

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as well.

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I think it's when it's with architects, they are a lot better at getting apples

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for apples because it is as per plan.

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When a client might just reach out, that's when it can get a little bit confusing.

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And then

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typically I would

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say

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more

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than

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75

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percent of the time it's just who is the lowest price.

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I'm going to try and put my switch in the hat on for a second because

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I certainly don't want to come across it where poopooing architects

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and designers for running a tender process, because I guess I get it.

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I understand intellectually the reason why they would do it.

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They obviously have their

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clients.

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best interest in mind, particularly

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in this current climate

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where prices have

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been a bit volatile or they

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have settled recently.

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I do understand why someone would go to tender,

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but I kind of feel

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like in our current market I

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think if we want to start thinking about builders as professional

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outfits or professional

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business

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owners, then I think we need to be leaning in on builders.

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For their experience,

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because they're at the coalface

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of

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costing and I don't personally feel that the tender process really values

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the builders in that in that process.

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No, and I know that we've had comments on that in the past, and

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I think we'll get to that in a

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second,

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I think

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then we've got like, what I refer to as a negotiated tender, I

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don't know what you'd call it,

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um,

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yeah, ECI,

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bring the builder in early, and that is just working as a

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collaboration, so you're there from the

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start.

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and you get a big concept plan to price it out then.

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and then

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you work all the way

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along until

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you work as part of that team to get the project to site.

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think it also

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feels that the builder is valued

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for their time.

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Yeah.

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and then generally paid for their

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time just installed on the project.

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Yep.

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Uh, and it's

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something that

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I started doing in probably 2018, I would say, I don't know when you did your

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first.

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I would say Jesse Glass Scott from G LX kind of clued me

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into this whole paid thing.

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And I reckon it would've been a similar time, 2019.

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Maybe.

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And I think the first time I did it was

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about 1500 bucks.

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And I thought, whoa, this is, this is how could, this is unreal.

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do see

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value

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though,

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uh,

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in clients and architects

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talking to builders early on.

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Yes.

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More than one.

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I would

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always

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suggest

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three.

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It should,

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be treated

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like

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a

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tender where you find

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three builders and you find who you're

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gonna work with the best.

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I yeah, I personally always say

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to

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clients is like, I'm

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not for everyone.

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You need to find the person you work best with and that is

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It's a relationship

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with it.

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We're

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signing this

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off for

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10

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years.

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We're part of your family.

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It's a marriage.

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Yeah, The prices are all going to be quite similar.

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We all, the good builders use a lot of the same trades or the same products.

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It can't differentiate

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too

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much.

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So, And I

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think

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when you're

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at, when you're

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operating in the

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same space, too

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so say if you

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me

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and mark from MBH all went for the same project I would argue that within KUI,

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you know

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prices would all be the same.

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but we all operate

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a bit differently

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You know

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Mark,

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the Yoda of building, you know, he's

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quite

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methodical and quite measured in his approach to things.

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You and I are quite.

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Yeah.

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you're a bit younger.

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A

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bit.

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Well, that's sorry, Mark.

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That's not age Mark.

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He's not that much younger than me.

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He's old.

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I'm not that much

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younger than you.

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No, but do you know what I mean?

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I'm using that as an

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example.

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Like I feel like it's all

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about getting that

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personal connection with that builder.

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So hey, getting that

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relationship is really important.

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Now,

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I know our

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current process and I think yours and, you know, let's use Mark as an example.

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we've spoken about that on a previous podcast about Hull Reconstruction.

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Yep.

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Our process

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now is

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quite similar where we'll do,

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I would say,

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like a reasonably high level estimate, where we'll do a

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little bit of work for a lower

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fee.

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And it's at that point where

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I

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feel that

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clients and

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architects should get two or three builders in.

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Just to pressure test the design and budget, not just from what I'm

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saying, but maybe what you're saying and what someone else is saying.

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And from that point, you've actually had an opportunity to chat with the builders,

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get their

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take on the project and any limitations or any advice or and

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changes or anything like that.

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And then you can all move forward confidently knowing that

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you're all kind of going in the

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right direction.

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I do have a problem at At that when you're interviewing three builders

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asking what the price is though,

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because I've been

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called out

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twice recently where, on one project said, Hey, it's going to cost you 1.

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3 million for this

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build.

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And they're like, that's a bit more than what we wanted to

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spend I'm like, that's okay.

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I'm just telling you what I think is going to cost.

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Because that's what you've asked me the question and then what

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I'd later found out is that

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two other builders have said, Oh,

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750 to

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800. But

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then they're like, Oh, why are

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you so much

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more expensive?

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And I'm like, Hey, I

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haven't put a number

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against it.

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I'm just telling you what I

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think.

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I miss out on

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the job, the other

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two builders

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get a

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look

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in.

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They then

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do their running the numbers, and

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you know what they ended up at the

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exact same number at what I

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said,

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but I was the upfront and honest one, the other

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two just didn't

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know what they

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didn't know,

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And

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then all of a

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sudden I miss out on

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the project, so now you

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have

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this issue is like, do,

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the, and I've spoken about this and

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it sounds bad.

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you play the game and low ball it

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to get in?

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and then deal with

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the consequence later, or do you run the honest

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approach and potentially miss out on projects

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Because at the

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moment, I would love

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another project starting and one of those

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projects went to site at the number I, said it was going to start at

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actually,

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I would have been under.

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Yeah, i, totally

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hear what you're saying.

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I mean, and I think at the end of the day, you and I both would

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approach honesty first, like

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and that's what I go back to is like, I

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can sleep at night.

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Yeah,

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exactly.

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Look,

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I'm not trying to, you know, sugar coat anything or try and make us look all

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rosy and nice, but I personally feel

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that honesty

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straight up front That is the

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way to go.

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And if someone

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is low

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balling to get in and telling you what you want to hear, what

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kind of relationship?

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I just think, and that's when I have the

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complete

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trust in

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architects and they should be able

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to

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decipher through that.

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They should be able to go, why are you so much lower?

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Yeah, yeah, That's a good point.

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And that

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I, I, so I would say like

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we,

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put on,

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we

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we, we've You've got to get better

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at building architects

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off because we,

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both believe that sometimes the way we talk

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comes across as if we

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don't, But

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I,

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that's where I really rely

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on the

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really good architects to be like, Hey, why are these

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two so

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different

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to compare to Matt

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is Matt too

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expensive

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or are

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these guys

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low

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balling

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it?

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We need to do some

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more of them like investigating.

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I would say that 95% percent of architects and designers that we deal

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with have honest conversations with

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clients.

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I'd say 100%.

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The bonds we bring

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into what we work with.

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We've already got that.

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we've able to,

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I think we're both very good at finding whether we're going to align or not.

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Agree.

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I was having a conversation with someone this morning on the way

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here though of an experience that they're having at the moment.

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Now, I understand at the moment work is a bit thin across every facet

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of construction from design all the way through to construction.

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And

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a friend of mine said, the architect said to him, I'll maybe hold off telling

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the client your opinion on cost Right.

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Now, because I don't think that their budget is going to allow what I've drawn.

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Okay.

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And it kind of almost

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makes me feel that that's not the right way forward.

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And again, I'm not saying that this is

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something that architects do at all.

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So please, you know, don't assume

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that that's what I'm saying, I think that there are still people from both sides,

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builders and architects who want to just

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try and get a project into their funnel and hope that on the

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other side, the clients find more

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money.

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When we're asking for more money, these people are building with 1.

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5 million dollars and I always feel guilty being like,

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Can you get an extra 200, thousand dollars?

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Like, yeah, that's not a small amount of

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money.

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No, it's not.

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It's not.

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It's not.

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But I feel that's where, honesty, straight up.

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And if it means that you and I miss out on a project, And it does go to site for 1.

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7 when we said it's going to be 1.

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7 and they want us around 1.

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5, then that's okay.

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I feel that that's

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okay.

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Yeah,

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I totally agree.

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I'm actually gonna poop who on build is here.

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because I think what happens is at a moment is there's a lot of education

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out there for builders that you can go find very quickly how to

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run this pre construction process.

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And so you do a two day course and all of a sudden you know, an expert in

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it.

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But what we've always spoken about is you don't know what you don't

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know.

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Now

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I

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think that that has also ruined it for builders

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because they've done

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this course and hey,

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we're going to charge, but we don't know a

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process.

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to actually make this work.

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And it comes back to

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hurt us where I've spoken to some

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architects

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who have been

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So

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burnt by

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the process, and I totally

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wouldn't.

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be the

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same in their position.

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Uh, they don't want

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to do this

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anymore

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because they're like, Oh,

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we've,

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engaged this builder and another one, and they didn't

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get back to us, and the

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price they gave

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was

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half a million under budget

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and

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it just went to shit.

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and then

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I'm like, yeah, totally

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respect that you don't want to go down that

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process, but don't put the rest of us who actually

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have really solid foundational processes

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in that

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basket.

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Yep.

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I, agree.

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And I

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think there's probably a podcast episode in

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how we feel that, uh, you know, should be running it.

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And look,

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I'm all

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for

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builders.

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getting paid for their time in pre construction 100%, but I think that there

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needs to be value in the information that they're bringing to the table.

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You've

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got to be willing to give

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your information.

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So that's what you're there to do.

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So

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you can't be guarded of all your

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knowledge.

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You're there to consult and give

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the information.

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I'm

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going to say

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something that if you're consulting, you should also have a private

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indemnity insurance to protect your, because

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you are

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essentially

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you're consulting.

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You have it.

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You have to have

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it,

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um, because

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you're providing advice

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on the building.

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So you, you want to

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indemnify

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yourself.

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Yeah.

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I

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need to

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protect myself, like we're, the

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buildings we're working on aren't

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simple

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and there are

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things

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that we've, we,

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might get wrong.

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So.

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it's a small amount a year

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to cover ourselves.

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At least I know that I

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can sleep.

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I was just thinking as we were having a chat right now, there's two builders,

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you know, talking from one side of the table, like, I know I know we've

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talked about this before when we had Scott on, but I actually think that would be

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a great opportunity, you know, in, in a.

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really respectful way to bring in a couple of architects to hear

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their side of the story and get

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their thoughts on how we can run it

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better.

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I 100 percent think that the tender process is

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broken.

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the space that we operate in.

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and I 100

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percent

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feel as more and more builders

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start to value their time and bring valuable information

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to the pre construction.

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process that if architects want to go to tender, And it's going to get

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really, really expensive for owners.

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Because

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three builders are probably going to want to charge anywhere between

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five to ten thousand dollars

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each

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to get a price.

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you had a comment the other day

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where you, where I think someone said that, uh, why are

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you charging for your time?

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Now I'll put it this way.

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As

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If I let's flick it on architects.

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and again, we've had, we've got

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ones we work with a totally okay

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with

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us charging for our time.

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And we do not make

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money off this process,

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I would say that if

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the

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project doesn't go to site, maybe

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lose out on 20, 30 grand of our time.

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Yeah.

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it Would be a

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very close to estimate.

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We've we've run some numbers and we feel that it costs us anywhere

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between 20 to 30k to cost a project.

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and

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your, at the end of the day charging maximum you might be able

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to get out of is 10 000 across

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a one

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and a

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half

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year consulting period.

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Yeah.

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So we're, we're about that 12 000 to 13,

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000. at the higher end and it goes down to 9, 000 but yes, but the

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value that clients get from that.

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And I know it's me sitting on the builder side saying this,

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but as soon as the

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relationships become transactional, there's an expectation from both sides

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that there's deliverables Totally.

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and we're quite

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clear with what

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those deliverables are.

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And we're becoming more and more

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clear

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about what the expectations are in that precom process.

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Now for us to give

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someone a ballpark

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right now with our current process.

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It

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costs 800.

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Yeah, okay.

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And I feel it's at that point

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there, where there should be three builders, all giving their opinion on

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cost, and they all should

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be charging in between 500 to

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800 to give that opinion on

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cost.

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And then it's

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about

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the architect and the clients deciding who's going to be part of the

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team.

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I feel

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that that's a really fair way of doing it.

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don't disagree.

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I think you need to, there's tools out there that you

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can use.

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You can look at past projects.

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You can Grab your own data to come up with that.

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Um, I think it's really important that, If you have

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someone and you're paying

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them, you've got them engaged.

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You can hold them to deadlines.

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you can hold, you can hold, them accountable.

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If you're not paying

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anyone, how can you hold them

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accountable?

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Because they've got

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other things

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that they're

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getting paid to

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do, which becomes more important.

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I would also

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argue, how can you then trust

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the data they're

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giving you?

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Yeah.

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Like if, if, if you're just getting spat out.

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an estimate with, you know, a whole bunch of different line items that

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they've probably just drawn from past experience and, you know, have

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they done the takeoffs correctly?

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Have they done this correctly?

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Have they brought their trades into it?

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Like

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I

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know

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that our process involves site visits for all our trades.

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So

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my trades are invested, you know, they know that

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we're part of the solution to get this project to site and that they're

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the only one looking at that project.

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So they're

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invested.

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They know that their time is not wasted.

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So there's two issues I have with

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the

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tender.

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If it's not

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on the plans and the

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architect misses it,

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which

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they're going to

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miss things, that's normal.

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Like I,

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they can't get

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everything right.

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We're human, right?

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

So

Speaker:

I'm not

Speaker:

putting

Speaker:

it in my

Speaker:

estimate because that's not what is as per plan.

Speaker:

That's not what is quoted.

Speaker:

You will

Speaker:

get a variation

Speaker:

on site

Speaker:

and most likely it's going to hold up your project.

Speaker:

There's also two, we will

Speaker:

probably find a more efficient way of building something

Speaker:

that's going to save you money.

Speaker:

I would

Speaker:

say that during, just having a builder on board,

Speaker:

will get your money

Speaker:

back with

Speaker:

a click of a finger once you have any discussion with an engineer,

Speaker:

And then also when we talk

Speaker:

about performance so they ask an optimization.

Speaker:

So,

Speaker:

within

Speaker:

that conversation, like, we

Speaker:

had one recently where we designed all the steel

Speaker:

beams out of

Speaker:

the project.

Speaker:

There's 30 grand

Speaker:

savings we've

Speaker:

just saved you a ton of money.

Speaker:

which in a tender process, would have just been flicked out,

Speaker:

stamped, hey, here's the engineering design to that, build to that.

Speaker:

Do you think that there is more opportunity for builders operating

Speaker:

in the high performance space to add more value to that tender process?

Speaker:

I'm

Speaker:

gonna

Speaker:

respectfully

Speaker:

say no,

Speaker:

but

Speaker:

can

Speaker:

you see where I'm coming from

Speaker:

though?

Speaker:

Yeah,

Speaker:

no, I totally agree

Speaker:

because the tool of like, say for example, PHP Yeah, you can

Speaker:

be used as a costing tool, but you need

Speaker:

to know how to use it.

Speaker:

Exactly So if you're

Speaker:

using

Speaker:

it for the first time,

Speaker:

no, definitely not.

Speaker:

You need

Speaker:

to have someone like

Speaker:

Cameron

Speaker:

who knows how to use it to have those conversations with you.

Speaker:

Yeah, I think you

Speaker:

have

Speaker:

to have

Speaker:

done maybe one

Speaker:

certified

Speaker:

passive

Speaker:

House first to be able to understand

Speaker:

that and the detail that needs to go into it.

Speaker:

So once you understand how it can be

Speaker:

constructed, Then you can understand the back

Speaker:

end

Speaker:

how that all works.

Speaker:

And I just did the

Speaker:

Passive House training for designers and I'm going to be straight out, it

Speaker:

was a complete waste of time.

Speaker:

Because I'd already felt

Speaker:

that I had

Speaker:

that knowledge through working with Cameron so many times and we've built four

Speaker:

of them, that I felt that Hey, we kind of weren't learning anything new where

Speaker:

what we're there to do is not run the

Speaker:

PHPP numbers.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

We're there

Speaker:

to run,

Speaker:

hey, if we're going to increase this amount of insulation to this,

Speaker:

what's the cost against that?

Speaker:

Yeah, We're not there to tell them what to include.

Speaker:

, but

Speaker:

I feel

Speaker:

like

Speaker:

there's, you know, just say wall build ups or double glazed versus

Speaker:

triple glazed like right there, there could be 10 or 15 grand, like

Speaker:

right there.

Speaker:

I've

Speaker:

got one at

Speaker:

the

Speaker:

moment

Speaker:

and it's, we're in Brunswick

Speaker:

now It's literally around the corner where

Speaker:

the heating 0.

Speaker:

2,

Speaker:

if we went triple glazed and they might be chasing passive house certification

Speaker:

So they're going to go, we need to get

Speaker:

that, triple

Speaker:

glaze, where I'm like, do we need to

Speaker:

go certified

Speaker:

to get you no extra value in money for that

Speaker:

extra cost

Speaker:

or

Speaker:

alternatively, okay, well let's put double glazing in and that's a net result of

Speaker:

10 saving.

Speaker:

Yep.

Speaker:

Can we build

Speaker:

up

Speaker:

those numbers somewhere else?

Speaker:

Yep.

Speaker:

Totally.

Speaker:

Can we, insulate

Speaker:

the service cavity is that going to get,

Speaker:

yeah,

Speaker:

so

Speaker:

this is

Speaker:

where I was kind

Speaker:

of

Speaker:

saying, like, I feel.

Speaker:

like in performance construction world,

Speaker:

managing thermal bridges, managing out steel, like insulating cavities or

Speaker:

not, 90 mils vs 140 frames, internal barriers vs no internal barriers.

Speaker:

Like there's easy grabs there.

Speaker:

and

Speaker:

it would be really interesting

Speaker:

to

Speaker:

get, say, Chris from

Speaker:

PrimeBuild on to have a chat

Speaker:

because I know he runs his pre con really

Speaker:

tightly

Speaker:

and has been doing it for a while to kind of get his understanding

Speaker:

of the areas that he looks

Speaker:

at

Speaker:

because it's not just, I will remove some joinery, Or change the

Speaker:

cladding, like

Speaker:

there are other

Speaker:

things that I think a builder

Speaker:

can bring to the table

Speaker:

that is

Speaker:

really valuable and can save that fee

Speaker:

before it

Speaker:

gets to site.

Speaker:

I

Speaker:

think builders

Speaker:

also need to understand they're not architects, they're not there to design.

Speaker:

100%. And I think that is

Speaker:

where the issue lies,

Speaker:

that

Speaker:

architects are

Speaker:

damn good at

Speaker:

designing, Yeah.

Speaker:

they're creative, they push boundaries, they want to push boundaries

Speaker:

and as builders we need to respect that and don't

Speaker:

kick back.

Speaker:

We need to go, hey,

Speaker:

uh, how can

Speaker:

we actually get what you want?

Speaker:

We'll

Speaker:

discuss

Speaker:

the buildability and

Speaker:

structure.

Speaker:

You give us the brief.

Speaker:

Let's now

Speaker:

make this work together because

Speaker:

I get bored

Speaker:

doing the same thing all the time.

Speaker:

So Greg challenged me,

Speaker:

but we've got to do it within a way

Speaker:

that is

Speaker:

going to make

Speaker:

it work.

Speaker:

So we might have to compromise it a little bit

Speaker:

here and

Speaker:

there, but we want to also

Speaker:

make

Speaker:

sure the

Speaker:

architect is trying to get their design

Speaker:

across the I

Speaker:

if

Speaker:

we're asked our opinion on

Speaker:

something, sure.

Speaker:

But I don't think it's our role in design.

Speaker:

You know, I have this

Speaker:

conversation with someone on my team in pre construction all the time.

Speaker:

It's

Speaker:

not our role

Speaker:

to

Speaker:

design this.

Speaker:

It's

Speaker:

our role to

Speaker:

talk about

Speaker:

implications on cost and performance, but it's not our role to design

Speaker:

we

Speaker:

had one

Speaker:

recently where there was bare stone cladding and it was super expensive

Speaker:

to install and the system behind it, the bare stone looks really well

Speaker:

priced and the cladding

Speaker:

itself and everything behind the structure and system is super

Speaker:

expensive.

Speaker:

So we're

Speaker:

like, we're

Speaker:

trying to do

Speaker:

volume management.

Speaker:

So

Speaker:

we will go to the client

Speaker:

and keep the, we'll go to the architect

Speaker:

and keep the client out of the conversation.

Speaker:

for a second and say,

Speaker:

Hey,

Speaker:

this is expensive.

Speaker:

Are you open to changing this?

Speaker:

These are just some other suggestions,

Speaker:

but that might be something that might be

Speaker:

non

Speaker:

negotiable.

Speaker:

So we're not going to touch

Speaker:

on that.

Speaker:

So

Speaker:

you do, it, you can do

Speaker:

it,

Speaker:

respectfully.

Speaker:

And if you're

Speaker:

wanting

Speaker:

to, if the

Speaker:

architect he was, they would pretty much

Speaker:

say, Hey, we need some volume management options,

Speaker:

have a crack at it.

Speaker:

So

Speaker:

we're

Speaker:

like, okay, these

Speaker:

are the things

Speaker:

we

Speaker:

think,

Speaker:

but Hey, you've got to

Speaker:

come

Speaker:

back to

Speaker:

us and be like, no, we like, or we don't

Speaker:

like.

Speaker:

That's

Speaker:

an interesting point about the

Speaker:

clients that you've just brought up there.

Speaker:

and I think, you know, there are potential clients that

Speaker:

are listening to this podcast.

Speaker:

There aren't going to be

Speaker:

conversations that the builders and the design team, and the

Speaker:

thermal modelers and the engineer, Those conversations are going to

Speaker:

happen,

Speaker:

and you might not be sitting in the

Speaker:

room.

Speaker:

Yeah, Because it's

Speaker:

almost not worth your time to sit there because you're kind of going to

Speaker:

be asking questions and catching up.

Speaker:

So, you know, please don't think that we're excluding you from

Speaker:

these conversations intentionally.

Speaker:

Well, maybe

Speaker:

it is

Speaker:

intentional, but it's not,

Speaker:

throwing

Speaker:

anyone

Speaker:

under the bus

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

and then being like, Hey,

Speaker:

architect, that

Speaker:

cladding is

Speaker:

So expensive.

Speaker:

How about we look at this?

Speaker:

to the clients?

Speaker:

like, why did you pick an expensive cladding?

Speaker:

The architect's just trying to do their job,

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

so we can't

Speaker:

like, you've got to be

Speaker:

respectful to them as well.

Speaker:

100%.

Speaker:

what we need to understand

Speaker:

here is this is a process.

Speaker:

when you start out here

Speaker:

and

Speaker:

I'm drawing on my little,

Speaker:

my, my,

Speaker:

book here, You start out

Speaker:

here

Speaker:

and you kind of go

Speaker:

this way and that way

Speaker:

and

Speaker:

this way and

Speaker:

that way.

Speaker:

And then you end up over here and it might be slightly different from

Speaker:

your original idea of what that structure is going to look

Speaker:

like.

Speaker:

But that is the process.

Speaker:

Yeah And it's got all that

Speaker:

IP from every single person within that process,

Speaker:

adding their

Speaker:

information and their thoughts on the project.

Speaker:

As long as every single person in that team is making that

Speaker:

project king or queen

Speaker:

and everything that you're doing is for the project.

Speaker:

The,

Speaker:

project is a champion.

Speaker:

everyone needs to put their ego aside and

Speaker:

yes,

Speaker:

the

Speaker:

architect wants to design something awesome.

Speaker:

Uh, yes, we want to build it in a way that we want to build it.

Speaker:

Sometimes we've got to give up on that and

Speaker:

that's okay.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

The

Speaker:

client's

Speaker:

going to want best

Speaker:

value for money, but it's about working together to get the ultimate result.

Speaker:

And that's how you get the best projects.

Speaker:

is how the projects

Speaker:

run this most smoothest on site.

Speaker:

I don't know if that's the greatest English, that's how

Speaker:

there's a higher level of trust

Speaker:

is how it's,

Speaker:

the collaboration

Speaker:

just makes life so easy.

Speaker:

And I'll also, I've got

Speaker:

a note

Speaker:

here

Speaker:

that

Speaker:

the

Speaker:

thing is once you're

Speaker:

on site,

Speaker:

there's a, and there's an issue that arises

Speaker:

because all the issues

Speaker:

arise at the

Speaker:

start of

Speaker:

a project, in

Speaker:

demolition

Speaker:

or in the In the ground.

Speaker:

You've already got that trust, you've already got

Speaker:

that report that

Speaker:

you've developed.

Speaker:

So when those issues come,

Speaker:

you're like,

Speaker:

Hey,

Speaker:

this was, we spoke about this

Speaker:

a lot earlier

Speaker:

that this might be an issue and we've come across

Speaker:

it.

Speaker:

And

Speaker:

it's now

Speaker:

a problem,

Speaker:

They're like,

Speaker:

okay,

Speaker:

cool.

Speaker:

Thanks for being upfront and transparent compared

Speaker:

to if it's a

Speaker:

negotiator.

Speaker:

if it's a tender process,

Speaker:

it's

Speaker:

like

Speaker:

the client.

Speaker:

It's like,

Speaker:

is this really a thing where you're

Speaker:

just

Speaker:

trying to get

Speaker:

me for extra Like there's already

Speaker:

that

Speaker:

question.

Speaker:

You

Speaker:

haven't developed

Speaker:

that complete form of trust yet.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

I mean,

Speaker:

it's, you almost

Speaker:

can

Speaker:

like split it.

Speaker:

to There's two phases of building.

Speaker:

In fact, there's two parts of building.

Speaker:

There's the relationship building and then there's the actual building of the home.

Speaker:

And I feel if you miss

Speaker:

the relationship building, then you are setting

Speaker:

yourself up for problems

Speaker:

it's

Speaker:

how things are going to go wrong.

Speaker:

And

Speaker:

I just think we need to

Speaker:

value

Speaker:

each

Speaker:

other's time and everyone knows their role.

Speaker:

All the architects we know and we work with have never said anything like this,

Speaker:

but you had a few comments recently.

Speaker:

When we did a post about, um, working together as a team, and the architects

Speaker:

and on a model to architects kick back and practically said that

Speaker:

build it shouldn't be charging

Speaker:

for their

Speaker:

time, that that's what a waste of like, what a waste of client resources,

Speaker:

blah, blah, blah.

Speaker:

Now, I'm

Speaker:

going to

Speaker:

put it back

Speaker:

on those

Speaker:

architects that think

Speaker:

that way

Speaker:

and say, what if we had a process

Speaker:

of a client goes

Speaker:

out

Speaker:

to

Speaker:

three architects

Speaker:

and goes,

Speaker:

hey, design me

Speaker:

all the

Speaker:

concepts.

Speaker:

and then when

Speaker:

I'll pick, once you've done all

Speaker:

your concepts and we can compare,

Speaker:

we're

Speaker:

going to now pick

Speaker:

our.

Speaker:

Architect we want to work with.

Speaker:

and guarantee no architect is

Speaker:

going to go through

Speaker:

that

Speaker:

process.

Speaker:

There's no difference

Speaker:

from the builder process

Speaker:

spending their time

Speaker:

estimating

Speaker:

it

Speaker:

and then coming up with a

Speaker:

cost to then pick the builders.

Speaker:

I want to work with.

Speaker:

I would also, maybe, and I'm

Speaker:

I'm gonna be

Speaker:

completely naive here, but I would argue

Speaker:

that getting

Speaker:

a solid estimate together

Speaker:

could take 50

Speaker:

to a hundred hours more, way more I mean 80, 80.

Speaker:

to 150.

Speaker:

But then I would argue for to get a sketch design together and, and I'm

Speaker:

happy to be called out here by designers

Speaker:

and architects,

Speaker:

I

Speaker:

would say that it take less time to get a concept together.

Speaker:

yeah I agree, and

Speaker:

it, that's also not including the

Speaker:

value

Speaker:

management, but then you could ask, argue with the architect about this,

Speaker:

the tweaking of the concept, but it's probably the same amount of time in there.

Speaker:

it's also the cost where, like, We pay external people to help

Speaker:

us get the estimate to make sure our numbers are correct.

Speaker:

You work with

Speaker:

an estimator, I

Speaker:

work with estimator and quantity surveyor,

Speaker:

and

Speaker:

so there's an

Speaker:

expense from our

Speaker:

end

Speaker:

to get people to run the numbers to make sure we're running them correctly.

Speaker:

for the client and for the architect.

Speaker:

You know, that's a really interesting point because, you know, we,

Speaker:

like just talking on costs and maybe why we need to charge, like I have an

Speaker:

internal estimator and I have someone working full time in pre construction,

Speaker:

quite

Speaker:

often.

Speaker:

we do sense check it to an external estimator.

Speaker:

Current, right now, we're looking at at another

Speaker:

estimating, or sorry, modeling

Speaker:

tool,

Speaker:

company and tool, who can actually build the model in 3D, which

Speaker:

gives us bill of quantities and a model that the team can use on

Speaker:

site.

Speaker:

this

Speaker:

is all

Speaker:

encompassed in that price that we charge clients.

Speaker:

So we're actually

Speaker:

investing time and energy and money to make sure that we're costing it

Speaker:

correctly so we

Speaker:

can make money so I don't go

Speaker:

bankrupt.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

And then we're

Speaker:

getting

Speaker:

a really great, efficient, construction process on site.

Speaker:

What have you said before?

Speaker:

The best project is the client gets their home built correctly.

Speaker:

Yep, The architects get to see the design and their company and

Speaker:

their

Speaker:

projects profitable from their side.

Speaker:

Yeah, And the builder

Speaker:

gets a

Speaker:

project that is challenging, but also

Speaker:

they get to walk

Speaker:

away making a profit.

Speaker:

That's

Speaker:

the whole idea of running a business.

Speaker:

That

Speaker:

is the

Speaker:

ultimate project and

Speaker:

everyone is happy

Speaker:

Then also everyone has to give up a little

Speaker:

bit.

Speaker:

Yep.

Speaker:

100%. Look, and I

Speaker:

guarantee that all those architects and designers out there would much prefer

Speaker:

to see their

Speaker:

designs in real life rather than scrunched up and put in a bin in the corner.

Speaker:

Because that's the reality of what's happening

Speaker:

at the moment.

Speaker:

I would love to know

Speaker:

how many

Speaker:

dreams have been scrunched up and thrown into the corner.

Speaker:

I've had three since November.

Speaker:

So that's three within

Speaker:

four months.

Speaker:

Yep.

Speaker:

So what's

Speaker:

the solution?

Speaker:

Like

Speaker:

I feel, and again, we

Speaker:

would love

Speaker:

to

Speaker:

get um, an architect

Speaker:

sitting here because we know

Speaker:

that this is completely one sided right now.

Speaker:

I

Speaker:

think it's also, let's go

Speaker:

onto the, the tender process

Speaker:

because I can also

Speaker:

understand why you would tender.

Speaker:

Oh, that's a good point.

Speaker:

Because as a builder,

Speaker:

like I think that

Speaker:

I had a good,

Speaker:

chat with a client that's also an

Speaker:

architect and they do a lot of

Speaker:

public housing systems and they're explaining that because

Speaker:

it's for the government,

Speaker:

there's no other way you

Speaker:

can not do it because it needs to be fair.

Speaker:

you need a

Speaker:

tender.

Speaker:

So the government are getting the best of value for the projects because

Speaker:

they're, held accountable by the people.

Speaker:

And I understand that

Speaker:

to some

Speaker:

extent, I still struggle to

Speaker:

wrap my

Speaker:

head around

Speaker:

it.

Speaker:

because I'm like, well, what if you could work with

Speaker:

someone,

Speaker:

give it, get to have an ultimate budget

Speaker:

up front and maybe you've got to work to that budget.

Speaker:

And then if it doesn't, if

Speaker:

it goes over,

Speaker:

the project doesn't

Speaker:

go ahead.

Speaker:

So my understanding is

Speaker:

some of these government.

Speaker:

Projects

Speaker:

though, and correct me if I'm wrong that there is a fee that

Speaker:

is charged from the tenders

Speaker:

you have to submit your tender

Speaker:

of

Speaker:

your fee of what it's going to

Speaker:

cost.

Speaker:

And then

Speaker:

they

Speaker:

practically

Speaker:

pick the lowest fee and go.

Speaker:

Well, you're

Speaker:

going

Speaker:

to now Design it.

Speaker:

I'm pretty sure that's how it works, Alright, okay.

Speaker:

So you bid you've got to bid

Speaker:

for the job It'd be great

Speaker:

to have some clarity around that if

Speaker:

someone could sort of give us an idea and get some like Yeah.

Speaker:

Look, I

Speaker:

understand that and I guess when you're talking about spending other people's

Speaker:

Like money, when there's more parties involved, I understand

Speaker:

in that respect, but we're

Speaker:

talking

Speaker:

20,

Speaker:

30, 40 billion dollar projects.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

yeah.

Speaker:

Like

Speaker:

they?

Speaker:

They, require more

Speaker:

collaboration

Speaker:

as

Speaker:

well.

Speaker:

don't they?

Speaker:

And

Speaker:

I also, well, I agree, but I also feel like

Speaker:

there's

Speaker:

less

Speaker:

emotion attached in the end product.

Speaker:

We're talking about dealing with people's homes.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

You know, where,

Speaker:

as you said before,

Speaker:

like 10 years.

Speaker:

Yep.

Speaker:

That's what

Speaker:

we are.

Speaker:

A 10, 10 years marriage and you know at the end of the day, I want

Speaker:

to be having fun conversations with my client, with them telling me

Speaker:

how much they love the project rather than say, hey, my door doesn't

Speaker:

work anymore or a window's leaking.

Speaker:

Yep.

Speaker:

100%.

Speaker:

And

Speaker:

I think

Speaker:

what we also need to,

Speaker:

before we keep poo pooing on the tender process,

Speaker:

the tender process is a race to the bottom.

Speaker:

That's, that's simply all of these.

Speaker:

it's builders not knowing how to run their business not knowing their overheads,

Speaker:

not knowing what it costs because they're like, Oh, can we get this cheaper?

Speaker:

Can we get this cheaper?

Speaker:

We don't

Speaker:

really know how to

Speaker:

estimate

Speaker:

So we can just put some random numbers against it and hope for the best.

Speaker:

And then they win the tender.

Speaker:

And all of a sudden

Speaker:

they've missed a lot of stuff

Speaker:

because they're

Speaker:

not paid for their time

Speaker:

because they

Speaker:

didn't want to invest

Speaker:

the time

Speaker:

into understanding the plans and architectural

Speaker:

details.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

And also, you know, this is another thing that's come up recently too, because

Speaker:

you've talked about profitability, markup and margin and stuff like that.

Speaker:

You know, we often get asked

Speaker:

by architects,

Speaker:

even in the negotiated tender process.

Speaker:

What's your

Speaker:

builder's margin

Speaker:

or profit?

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And I'm like, okay, well, which one is it?

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Is it profit?

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Is it gross?

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Is it net?

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Is it

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markup?

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Is it Yeah, so, what are we looking at?

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Are we looking

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at when all

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is

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said and done and the

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project's finished, what are we trying to

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get?

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Or what are

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we marking

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up?

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completely different things.

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Now I will go on the

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record here and say that

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we mark

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up our projects 25

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because

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I

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know

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my overheads,

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And I know what

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net profit I want to go

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to.

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And

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it's probably the same for every builder.

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So I'm going to have

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a

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complete guess at this.

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You haven't told me.

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You're probably going to want to run at

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about a 10 percent overhead

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and a 15 percent

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markup for the profit of the

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project.

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It's

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pretty much more than a guess, Yes, it's

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the same as mine.

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And, and the other thing

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that we

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need to, to to understand too is that

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where the

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gross numbers and the net numbers sit too.

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Yep.

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So

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that's

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the

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other thing, And again, we're probably

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straying just a little bit

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here.

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But we don't make 15 percent off a project That's the other thing.

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No, No, no, no, no,

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no, This this

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is,

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this

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is the, this is

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the thing where it really, you really need to understand what that then builds up.

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And I reckon that's probably maybe even a conversation or another time, Yeah.

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we've actually got some numbers that we're referring to and rather than

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just, you know, spitting off things.

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So I guess

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my comment to architects out there is if you are going to ask the question,

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be quite specific about what information you're trying to understand.

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Because me

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saying,

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well,

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we put a 25 percent margin on it and then you sort of reverse

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engineer that and go, well, that's a

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huge number.

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go.

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Well,

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businesses need money to run.

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Yep.

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We have

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cars.

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we have employees, we have overheads, we have bookkeepers, we have estimators, we

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have all these

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kinds of things

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insurances,

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Insurances.

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There's a hundred million ounces.

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Now, my markup.

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is

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going to be a lot

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different

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to someone who is a bag it on builder

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markup

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because

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I'm obviously not on the tools.

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However, their

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carpentry rate is

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going to

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be higher.

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their carpentry rate is going to be higher.

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Exactly.

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So you need

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to

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kind of look at everything on balance when.

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you are

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using that as

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a key factor

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in deciding where you think that project is from a cost point of view.

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Yep,

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Because I think that it

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can be a little bit misleading.

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And you're playing with fire.

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If you're engaging someone that doesn't

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understand this,

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there is a

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high

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risk

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that

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you're going to either one, the project's not going to be profitable for them,

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so they're going to lose interest.

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So then they're

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going to be cutting

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corners to get it across the line.

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Yep.

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Or, and

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most likely in the current

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climate,

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they're just going to go bankrupt.

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Yes.

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I think as an industry where we're talking, we're going to organize an

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event later this year As an industry, we're going to have a conversation with

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everyone and bring everyone into the room and understand how this process and

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how architects and builders can align.

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Because I fear they're not on the same page.

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Yeah.

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I think.

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That is a huge issue because we both want the same results and we just need to work

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together.

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Do you know what would be even interesting, more interesting, is

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actually bringing clients into that and understanding what they want?

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Because do clients want a

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tender?

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comes down to education because if you speak to someone they don't

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know about and negotiate a tender.

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they're of course going to say, hey, I want a tender.

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Yeah.

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I think the thing you, it needs to start with the education.

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Between builders and architects who then can educate the client

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because

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they, they don't know about construction or they've gone through and done

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in a certain way in a past time.

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And

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that's how it worked for them And seemed to work well.

Speaker:

But now we don't speak to

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the builder.

Speaker:

So once you start to dissect it from the client's perspective.

Speaker:

Did it actually really work?

Speaker:

Yeah, I mean, I feel we've had many successful Negotiator tenders

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And the things we get wrong in the negotiator And I was also I was

Speaker:

also about to say, I've also had negotiated tenders which haven't gone.

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Well, yeah, you know, and We're always learning from this We,

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you know, And I think the ones that haven't gone well is when if we go back to

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that honesty thing is when I haven't been

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honest.

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Um, I'm not going to

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as honest as I probably should have been at the beginning,

Speaker:

where maybe I've known that it might've gone over.

Speaker:

Yeah.

Speaker:

But I was like, Oh, well, let's just see.

Speaker:

Where is it because your process, you didn't know your process that

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well and you've refined it since?

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I think so.

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And I also feel

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that the last couple of years have been quite tricky with, , you

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know, fluctuations in prices where we were, we gave a price.

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You know, 12 months before that final price and then we've seen prices go up.

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and there's

Speaker:

inflation at like three and a half percent.

Speaker:

And that's

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not a great

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experience.

Speaker:

for clients.

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you know, I would love that if we gave an estimate and that's

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what we'd then contract it on.

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And I feel, you know, the way that we're approaching it now,

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using the tools that are available to us, you know, our knowledge

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past projects and a new tool that we're starting to use, that we can

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give a pretty accurate estimate.

Speaker:

That should.

Speaker:

Range of where the project should land.

Speaker:

You know, we're also putting in other inputs to accommodate

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performance construction as well.

Speaker:

I know you're using the same tool.

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Maybe we

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can talk about it at some other stage,

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But I actually feel that

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that's a really great way to pressure test it.

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And if I go back to what I think

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the perfect, , process is at that stage, get two or three builders

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running that process, spend the money,

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because if you spend the money, you know, you need a good data.

Speaker:

You know, you've got to pay for that information.

Speaker:

It's at that point, pick one of the builders that you're comfortable with.

Speaker:

Because I'd almost guarantee if you, me and Mark all did

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that process, We'd be within

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5 percent of each other.

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our roof is going to be the same.

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Mechanical ventilation is going to be the same.

Speaker:

Uh, whatever, the other trades

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we use are the same.

Speaker:

Now, I'll say this though.

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as The negotiated tender is in a builder's best

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interest.

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And I say that in a way because one,

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I think that we come in tighter on our numbers because we've

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kind of got the project, we've just now got to get it to site.

Speaker:

So we're respectful and like, Hey guys, come in tight because we really

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want to get this project to site.

Speaker:

But hold on.

Speaker:

the other thing is it allows us to schedule in our projects for the

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future, knowing we're blocking them out when projects are going to be.

Speaker:

So you're now on there's a higher chance your project is going to start

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most likely when you want it to start because we've been able to schedule in

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and control the cost.

Speaker:

the other thing too, which I hopefully would give clients and architects a

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bit of assurance around this is we're almost hanging our hat on

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this number, which we haven't dove really really deep

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into the design.

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There's no details.

Speaker:

But we've had enough experience and we're relying on these industry

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tools and past projects to recognise that the range that we're giving

Speaker:

you is a good realistic number.

Speaker:

Now we're going to try fucking hard.

Speaker:

To re To get in that band.

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Yeah.

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Like 100 get in that band because if we're not, then our process is shit.

Speaker:

There's no point

Speaker:

doing

Speaker:

it.

Speaker:

and the thing is, you can't as architects, which is really challenging for them, is

Speaker:

they can't look at projects in three using and say, Hey, we built This for that.

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This is what it's gonna cost now.

Speaker:

Unfortunately, that luxury is going outta the windows since COVID.

Speaker:

And that's really difficult on them because I think with architects,

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is if they've got a budget of say, $800,000, now they're gonna give a pen

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and paper and go, where do I start?

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Because 800, 000 gets you nothing these days.

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And

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that's the reality.

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Well, It doesn't get you as much as

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it did.

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But also, the other important thing to note with that point is that the

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architect's getting the contracted value.

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Yeah.

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Not the as built value.

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Because as builders, we've

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got, well we've priced it back here and then we've started here, and then we've

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taken 12 months to build the project.

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And then we'll do like a post mortem on

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the project and really understand what that project cost us.

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So we actually have that real cost of the project,

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real time, in

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today's current market.

Speaker:

Unfortunately architects don't have that.

Speaker:

And Chris Gilbert brings that up

Speaker:

too, in the conversation that we've had.

Speaker:

that us as builders, if we could plug that data in somewhere,

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then architects are winning.

Speaker:

And maybe that's the solution.

Speaker:

I

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what is working isn't currently working.

Speaker:

I think we're all still

Speaker:

finding our feet.

Speaker:

I think that we have ours pretty well dialed in.

Speaker:

But then I've completely flipped my process recently on its head

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too, because I'm like, well, we can improve on it again, 100%.

Speaker:

And I think that's where a good builder will be able to

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able to

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Understand the process.

Speaker:

A good architect will also be able to question us on our process.

Speaker:

with some very clear guided questions on how does your process work?

Speaker:

How does it work?

Speaker:

I think the most important question an architect can ask

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is how has your process failed in the past?

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So then they can start to understand what didn't go wrong So we can now

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give this project the best chance to go ahead How have you learned from

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how you were doing things two years ago and what chances have you made?

Speaker:

let's test how transparent the builder is and

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go, oh no, all of our projects are fine and dandy.

Speaker:

Well, the reality is, I've had four or five projects in the last

Speaker:

two years that haven't got to site

Speaker:

because they didn't meet budget.

Speaker:

Well, and I'll tell you what, I've also had projects that have gone to

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site where if I look at, you know,

Speaker:

our projected, profitability, it's 12 to 15 percent off where I'd wanted it to be.

Speaker:

totally.

Speaker:

So,

Speaker:

but I think we wrap that up.

Speaker:

I think this is our first episode in person, so bear with us

Speaker:

for a few episodes to see how we get it.

Speaker:

All these will now be on YouTube as well.

Speaker:

we're really keen to start spitting out some way better content.

Speaker:

Um, we've got some awesome stuff in the pipelines.

Speaker:

Around webinars and trying to bring out.

Speaker:

little, uh, handbooks.

Speaker:

got some ideas that we're going to really start to help build this

Speaker:

industry up and not just make it a podcast but make it a big collaboration

Speaker:

between everyone.

Speaker:

So, yep.

Speaker:

And the good news is a lot of this information that we're

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talking about is going to

Speaker:

be free.

Speaker:

Yeah, we do need to fund this at some point, , but that's

Speaker:

where the sponsors come in

Speaker:

if you want to sponsor, reach out to us, Uh, we do have a few lined up

Speaker:

that are keen to come on board, so.

Speaker:

Awesome.

Speaker:

again, want to say a massive thank you to Hit First Hire, yeah,

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for letting us film here today.

Speaker:

Building Better Exchange.

Speaker:

Better building Exchange.

Speaker:

Better building exchange.

Speaker:

See you, Matty.

Speaker:

Ciao.

Speaker:

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