Beck and Dash welcome Willie Edward Taylor Carver Jr., a celebrated teacher and author, as their special guest. Willie discusses his experiences as Kentucky's Teacher of the Year in 2022, his published book 'Gay Poems for Red States,' and the societal challenges he's faced as an openly queer teacher in rural Kentucky. The conversation explores themes of Appalachia's resilience, the impact of regional and identity politics on education, and the importance of diverse representation. The episode also features humorous anecdotes about cultural quirks, such as gas station chicken and county fairs, while highlighting the intersections of Appalachian and queer identities. Finally, the podcast touches on the necessity of expanding diverse voices in media and literature.

Check out Willie's book Gay Poems for Red States (2023) and pre-order his novel Tore All To Pieces https://www.booksamillion.com/product/9781985903708

In the vibrant tapestry of identities, the intersection of queerness and regional heritage presents a unique perspective. Willie, a storyteller with roots steeped in Appalachian culture, offers a profound insight into how this region has shaped his sense of identity. For him, the term "queer" extends beyond sexual orientation or gender identity, weaving in aspects of his Appalachian upbringing.

When Willie speaks about being queer, he's touching on a broader idea than one might initially assume. He explains, "When somebody says he's Queer, they often mean he's different and we're aware of it." This reflection echoes a universal truth: queerness is about embracing one's differences and the perceptions they generate in the world. For Willie, being queer means living openly, acknowledging the distinctiveness that sets him apart.

In his narration, Willie makes an intriguing declaration: in the acronym LGBTQIA, the 'A' stands for Appalachia, alongside its other connotations. This symbolizes the integration of his geographical roots into his identity, a declaration of pride in where he comes from and how it has informed his worldview. It's not just Appalachian landscapes or folklore that define him, but the way these elements have played into his experiences of queerness.

Growing up Appalachian, Willie learned resilience early on—lessons that resonate with his queer identity today. He speaks candidly about facing pushback, not just for being queer, but for his Appalachian background. His response: "Go do it on purpose." This mantra encapsulates a rebellious embrace of identity, suggesting that authenticity is found in turning perceived negatives into points of pride.

Willie's story illustrates the power of embracing complex identities and the narratives they foster. By recognizing the multifaceted nature of queerness through an Appalachian lens, we broaden our understanding of what it means to belong to both communities. It reminds us that regional heritage and personal identity are not mutually exclusive but rather intertwined threads that enrich the stories we tell about ourselves.

Through his experiences, Willie invites us all to reflect on the layers of our identities and to celebrate the diverse ways they shape who we are.

00:00 Welcome to Queernecks

00:23 Introducing Willie Edward Taylor Carver Jr.

01:34 Appalachian Identity and Queerness

05:20 Accent and Cultural Misunderstandings

12:22 Challenges in Education

17:19 Advocacy and Resistance

24:45 Transition to Creativity

29:07 Decline of Gay-Straight Alliances

29:38 Resilience and Ingenuity in Appalachia

29:49 Liberation and Identity in Queer Spaces

30:42 Contrasts Between Appalachia and Blue States

33:16 Experiences in Queer Bars

34:33 Jerry Springer and Anti-Racism

37:01 Writing and Representation

43:46 Queer Appalachian Voices

Welcome to Queernecks, the podcast that

puts the Yee Hall in y'all means hall.

2

I'm your host, Beck, and I'm your host.

3

Dash.

4

Welcome to today's episode.

5

Dash: this week on, Queernecks

we got a friend who joined us

6

and we got to talking again.

7

So we're just gonna skip the

wheel, what have you, and just

8

bring him right on out here.

9

you may know our spe a special guest,

Willie Edward Taylor Carver Jr.

10

he was teacher of the year in 2022.

11

Kentucky's, teacher of the year.

12

due to a lot of the work he did,

as both an advocate in and outside

13

the classroom, and his students

were just massively successful.

14

And then he, published a

book, gay Poems for Red States

15

in

16

2023.

17

and it has.

18

A super high rating on good reads.

19

I don't know how important that is, but

I know that there's also a shitload of,

20

reviews that say it, changed their life

and altered how they think how they

21

see queerness, how they see Appalachia.

22

that's just the kind of, work that

we really love to see out there.

23

well, Willie, welcome to

24

Becky Risner Jenkins: Queernecks.

25

Willie: Thank y'all for having me

26

. Dash: I was just really

pleased that you, said yes.

27

I felt kind of crazy just

sending that email out into

28

the ether to your publisher,

29

Willie: I, love, I, I've made it

clear to them, like, I don't care who

30

it is, especially if it's L-G-B-T-Q

related or Appalachian related.

31

Like just go ahead and send it on to me,

because there's too much work to be done

32

anybody who's trying to do that work, I

wanna support and wanna be a part of it.

33

So thank you.

34

All

35

Dash: well, and, and I, you're from

Kentucky and I am from Kentucky as well.

36

Beck's, a nasty Ohioan.

37

Becky Risner Jenkins: From five

minutes away from Kentucky.

38

Dash: I mean, really, what's

a border in Appalachia?

39

Becky Risner Jenkins: Yeah.

40

Willie: right.

41

that's just one of those

constructs trying to keep us down.

42

And I, I grew up with that,

disdain for the entire state of

43

Ohio and really didn't learn about

Appalachian, Ohio for a long time.

44

but it definitely exists.

45

Becky Risner Jenkins: yeah.

46

Dash: We thought of Ohio as

the north, growing up in East

47

Willie: well, and my cousins

would come in from Ohio.

48

They would always go

like, it's so boring here.

49

And I'm like, what are you do in Canton?

50

Like, we're gonna go steal some hub caps.

51

Like we can do that here if you want.

52

so I had a chip on my shoulder.

53

but yeah.

54

Ohio's got lovely parts

55

Becky Risner Jenkins: I'm from

pretty close to where Hawking Hills

56

is, if you know where that is.

57

Yeah.

58

Dash: Yeah.

59

We met up there at grad

school in northwest Ohio.

60

A place I'd never really thought

I'd wind up was surprised to find,

61

things that felt like home there.

62

I think, Appalachia as a region,

first of all, it's massively

63

diverse, but its culture and its

ways of life extend beyond it.

64

Any places that continue to be rural.

65

So like being in rural, northwest Ohio,

I was like, this is still pretty country.

66

Willie: Well, and I think for me too,

I've thought a lot about how, like,

67

what makes Appalachia special to me.

68

And you can find that all over world even.

69

And to me, like whatever, I mean

when I say Appalachia doesn't

70

necessarily connect just to the hills.

71

I lived in France after my undergrad

and I was in the north of France and

72

the part of France that I lived in had,

they had some farming and lots of coal.

73

30 years before that, that was all gone.

74

There's a lot of poverty,

strong regional accents.

75

So strong in fact that they

were made fun of anywhere else

76

in France, I felt so at home.

77

In fact, I went to England with some

high school students and like was

78

aggressively protective of my students

when the Parisians were around and

79

kind of, shifted what I thought about

Appalachia 'cause I'm like, this

80

is Appalachia as, I mean the word.

81

Dash: So kind of a, a worldview and

approach to just live in and making do.

82

Willie: Yeah.

83

and it, Appalachian informed my queerness.

84

So when I say L-G-B-T-Q-I-A, that A

stands for Appalachia and other stuff.

85

But, uh, you know, it's queerness,

when, when somebody says he's Queer.

86

they say, you.

87

know, what they mean often is

he's different and we're aware of

88

it, you know, and I'm like, Yeah.

89

that's pretty much what queer is.

90

And every lesson I learned as a kid,

figuring out how to deal with the fact

91

that I was gonna face pushback from being

Appalachian was go do it on purpose.

92

Go make fun of him.

93

Go, be yourself in a way that

is undeniably appalachian

94

and smarter than them.

95

you know, and, that it's

exactly how I did queerness.

96

I just copied it.

97

Dash: I think any, identity that

comes from a, of disempowerment.

98

It requires a degree of, humor

and, like you say a little bit

99

of like, be faster than them.

100

Be quicker than them.

101

You gotta beat 'em to where they're going

102

Willie: Yeah.

103

Mm-hmm.

104

One of those, I don't

know, A-B-C-N-B-C-C-B-F.

105

One of those was doing, uh The poverty

in the hills sort of documentaries.

106

And we can do documentaries about

poverty in the hills that are

107

nice, but this is not one of those.

108

This was one of those exploitative

things, and a friend of mine,

109

her dad a coal mine at the time.

110

They are in his office.

111

' cause he has an office, a, you know,

a trailer, outside of this mine.

112

And he comes in completely head

to toe, covered in coal black with

113

white socks on because he took his

boots off to go talk to these guys.

114

So they're, they've got the camera, they

sort of do this down to his socks and they

115

go, so you're, you don't have boots, you.

116

have to go into the mines and your socks.

117

And he's just watching them thinking,

how would my socks be white and cleaned?

118

You know?

119

But he just leans right into it.

120

He's like, Oh yeah, I was hoping

last year to get a pair of

121

boots, but he couldn't do it yet.

122

But maybe, maybe next

year we'll make it happen.

123

That's,

124

and look over the, you know.

125

Dash: Yeah, that it doesn't match up.

126

I, for a long time, I would

fight against my accent.

127

like, uh, my, it's fairly strong.

128

Where I'm from is, Jel lico and

it's a coal mine in town on the

129

border of Tennessee and Kentucky.

130

Willie: Is

131

Dash: never had, I have met so few

people who know what Jellico is,

132

Willie: times my thought

I was gonna have when.

133

Dash: Yeah.

134

Mountain, you ain't gonna get over it.

135

And it don't even have

to be that much snow.

136

Just the, a thin veneer of ice.

137

Willie: We got, uh, grounded down in,

uh, Gatlinburg three years ago maybe.

138

It was that really big snow came

and all the electricity was out.

139

It was awful.

140

We got stuck in a cabin, and we

were trying to figure out if it

141

was safe to drive home and there

was no app, there's no nothing.

142

And I said, there's a waffle house

in a McDonald's, un on Jellico.

143

So I just called the McDonald's and I said

to this kid, I said, is it safe to drive?

144

And this kid goes, hold on,

let me look out the window.

145

And then he comes back and he

goes, yeah, it's looking good.

146

I was like, this is better than any app.

147

Dash: it's, it's a, it's an experience.

148

And the, that region there too is also,

really, enmeshed in the, the union wars

149

and like the, miners uprising and things.

150

A lot of folks from Jellico

went over to Blair Mountain.

151

but I would try real hard to change my

accent because it is the Jellico dialect.

152

When I was growing up

there, it was really strong.

153

there wasn't any media coming

in in the eighties though.

154

So like, I was raised on Star Trek

and that was my only reference point

155

for how the rest of the world spoke.

156

And so I, I fought against my accent

for a long time and then I think I

157

just burnt out back, with a vengeance.

158

Willie: I got a linguist brain

and as country as I sound now like

159

my accent is destroyed just from

living everywhere and I've never

160

intentionally tried to change it.

161

Except for when I lived in France.

162

there to get the students

to teach English.

163

So they had a person born in

France teaching them English.

164

And my job was just to get them

to speak to a native speaker.

165

But I would look at 'em and go, so,

uh, you got a brother or sister?

166

and all these students just acted like

they couldn't understand a word I said.

167

And then it occurred to me, one

time I was asking 'em what they

168

liked, what they did at Christmas.

169

one of them raises their hand in French

and wanted to know how to say salmon.

170

so I go, okay, repeat everybody, salmon.

171

And they all go, I, and I was like,

they're not, That's just what they hear.

172

So I said to this girl, you

got a brother or a sister?

173

I go, okay, I know what to do.

174

And I go, have you got

a brother or sister?

175

And then she answers, yes, I have a And

so for two years I spoke with a fake

176

received pronunciation France, to French

teenagers, as if I was from England.

177

And when you do that for two

years and that's the only English

178

you speak, it messes everything.

179

So I moved to Georgia after that

teaching at the University of Georgia

180

first test day in French class.

181

I was like, all right

y'all, I'm speaking English.

182

I don't know what I sounded

like at the time, but stress.

183

It's just English.

184

Any questions?

185

And one of them goes, where are you from?

186

Where do you think I'm from?

187

one of 'em goes, well, it's obvious

English ain't your first language, but

188

you do it real good and then somebody

else goes, no, I think that's uh,

189

that's what New Zealand sounds like,

190

Dash: Oh man.

191

Here.

192

in, far, west Minnesota, they often

can't understand what I'm saying.

193

And one kid told me, I said, uh,

they go like, where, where are you

194

from I said, I'm from Kentucky.

195

And this kid goes, you look

like you're from Kentucky.

196

I was so taken aback that

I didn't even think to just

197

like, bust their balls on it.

198

'cause I was like, what in

the hell does that mean?

199

Would you like to know where

you look like you're from?

200

Like, you are stepping

to a mean ass hillbilly

201

Willie: I taught in Vermont

for a couple of years, and, uh,

202

Dash: not convinced that's a real place.

203

Like I can't even

204

Willie: grandmother-in-law, when I,

when we explained to her that we lived

205

in Vermont, she goes, well, now that's.

206

Is that, that's, that's Canada.

207

And we were like, no, that

it's an American state.

208

Well, no, I know America and

I've never heard of a Vermont.

209

And we were like, well, it, it's a state.

210

And then we told her our zip

code , which was like oh, Oh

211

seven.

212

And she goes, no, that's not a zip code.

213

It doesn't start with a zero.

214

You're in Canada.

215

but I had a teach.

216

Love their heart.

217

Love her heart, bless her heart.

218

A teacher said to me, you speak French.

219

interesting.

220

does your French sound like

starting from your accent?

221

And I go, oh, that's so adorable.

222

Do you think that your accent

better translates into French?

223

Why is that?

224

And I caught her up in like

her classism, and then she was

225

trying to change the subject.

226

And I'm like, no, I'm really interested.

227

What about Vermont or English Do, you

think just naturally sounds better?

228

How?

229

I've never heard this.

230

Is there research?

231

Dash: do people ever correct you on how to

pronounce Versailles outside of Kentucky?

232

I've had people tell me, oh

no, it's pronounced Versailles.

233

And I was like, it ain't

pronounced Versailles in French.

234

So why would it be pronounced

Versailles in America?

235

Versailles is more accurate to,

to the French than Versailles is.

236

Willie: Plus, let's not, they

always go after Southerners

237

for how we pronounce things.

238

Go to the Northeast and hear how

they've butchered, uh, French,

239

it's not even butchered anyway.

240

It's, it's, it's in English, you

know, but Charlebois was the name of a

241

truck company, so we were brand new to

Vermont, so we didn't know anything.

242

So we were, we would call it as we read

it, and I was saying something about

243

how we live not too far from Sha Vois.

244

And people were like, what are you saying?

245

And I, saidhow Vois, it's,

it's a big trunk company.

246

They're like, are you

talking about Charlie Boys?

247

That's what they call it.

248

people tried.

249

To correct my grammar.

250

And it never ever went well for them.

251

was walking outta my classroom once

and the teacher across the hall

252

said, good morning, how are you?

253

And I said, I'm good.

254

How are you doing?

255

And she goes, don't you mean I'm, well?

256

Dash: Girl

257

Willie: Do you think I'm using

it as an, uh, adversial modifier

258

or a substantive qualifier?

259

And then she kind of just looked at me

and go, no, I mean this literally, if you

260

think you're gonna correct me, I'm gonna

need you to engage in this conversation.

261

And then I just stared at

her until she walked into her

262

classroom and closed her door.

263

never said a thing after.

264

Dash: I'm no longer having you.

265

Good morning.

266

So, congratulations.

267

So you're from, Floyd, County, right?

268

Willie: Yeah.

269

Floyd County, Eastern Kentucky.

270

Uh, my husband used to joke that

he thought I was part of the mafia

271

Becky Risner Jenkins: that where Morehead.

272

is?

273

Willie: far from Morehead.

274

it's an hour and a half,

275

Becky Risner Jenkins: Gotcha.

276

Willie: I went school in Morehead though.

277

people would say, where are you from?

278

And sometimes I'd say Martin, Kentucky,

sometimes Prestonsburg, sometimes

279

Floyd County, e far enough away.

280

I'd even say Lexington.

281

if I say Frogtown, Kentucky,

like very few people are gonna

282

know what I'm talking about.

283

Same for Martin nor

Prestonsburg, honestly.

284

Dash: I had the Eastern Kentucky, region

for when I was a, recruiter so that

285

Floyd County was one of my counties.

286

I love going out there like, just

like the rocks and the mountains and

287

stuff is the most beautiful spot.

288

Willie: So you were competing against

who was the recruiter at Morehead State?

289

I know what years you were doing it, but.

290

Dash: This was just a couple years ago.

291

It was 23

292

, Willie: I can tell you this, my

husband was a recruiter from Morehead.

293

that stuff is much more political and

brutal than I would've ever imagined.

294

Like he, he went to one school and

the guidance counselor stopped him

295

at the door and said, usually they

bring us donuts, just so you know.

296

Dash: Oh yeah.

297

And I, I had never been

a recruiter before.

298

It.

299

They outlawed the job I was doing in

Kentucky, which was diversity, like

300

special populations, uh, URM is what we

called it, underrepresented minorities.

301

And, they outlawed that.

302

And so I became a territory

manager in, rural student outreach.

303

And I had no background,

didn't know what I was doing.

304

I was walking into them.

305

Schools They, they picked me apart,

306

Becky Risner Jenkins: I teach race

and gender and I'm in Ohio where

307

they just passed state bill one,

which basically makes it illegal

308

to teach anything controversial,

which is everything I teach.

309

I read an article today about somebody,

a major university, it's blanking me

310

now, but just got fired in Texas yeah,

the, the teaching, the gender unicorn.

311

That's in one of my slides,

312

Willie: Well, it might have been I

know that someone at a and m just got

313

fired and a student, like the student

filmed and, anything is controversial.

314

I think what,

315

Becky Risner Jenkins: right.

316

Willie: is what they mean is that

might offend conservative people,

317

because minoritized folks already

know they're gonna have to experience

318

racism, homophobia, and transphobia.

319

that, that's built into the curriculum.

320

So it doesn't usually occur to

us to complain when it happens.

321

whereas our existence causes complaints

and that was certainly my experience

322

in education, in K through 12.

323

Dash: I was still doing that in

Kentucky when they passed, SB one

324

50, which was basically Kentucky's,

don't say gay bill in schools.

325

And, our university recruitment

materials didn't get altered.

326

EKU has a surprising

commitment to inclusivity.

327

and so our recruitment materials, I

mean, going into classrooms, giving

328

this presentation with rainbows

on 'EM and L-G-B-T-Q resources

329

here and this and that, I got

kidnapped kind of, uh, at a school.

330

they wouldn't let me leave.

331

They locked me in a room and

were like, interrogating me about

332

whether I was a pedophile and

I I shouldn't be allowed near

333

Willie: Oh my God.

334

Dash: And yeah, I, that was the day I

decided like, I can't do this one anymore.

335

but.

336

It was all because they were like,

well, you don't know what it's like.

337

And I was like, bitch, who do

you think you're talking to?

338

Of course I

339

Willie: Yeah.

340

Dash: like.

341

You are just now learning that

things can be difficult out here,

342

that things can be complicated.

343

That that things about who we are

that we can't help can be taken

344

away from us and politicized and

put into machinations that actually

345

don't have anything to do with us.

346

You are just now learning.

347

like me have been living

our lives this way.

348

Willie: Mm-hmm.

349

Dash: Fucking suck it up.

350

Willie: yeah, we, when I look back

at the things we were doing in

351

20 15, 20 16, and how skittish is

now, and then the allies are now,

352

Dash: Listeners, Willie just did

scare quotes around the word ally.

353

Willie: Yeah, I definitely

did a scare quote word ally.

354

we've had, in my final years

in K through 12, we had parents

355

complaining if we were just reading

something written by a black person.

356

so the school policy was if you

are reading something and there's

357

a parent complaint, you, you

provide the alternative assignment.

358

And so I am not going Right, right.

359

You know, I have literally, as much as

I hate it, I went through, as I lie,

360

dying and removed every cuss word, for

one family, and refunded their $12.

361

'cause they purchased a copy of that

book, and gave them this, this added

362

version, that tested the limits of

control f But one thing, right?

363

Because they're suggesting that saying,

you know, the word damn is so, offensive

364

that they can't be a part of it.

365

And I'm saying, even though I disagree

with you, I'm willing to act as the filter

366

to remove the dam so that you can see it.

367

But if you're saying to me that

someone being black or gay or trans

368

is so offensive that you won't

even look at what that person has

369

to say, I will not be that filter.

370

I can't morally be that filter

who erases a Jewish voice

371

and finds you a white voice.

372

I won't do it.

373

So I wrote a site-based policy

Kentucky had for the longest time,

374

site-based decision making councils.

375

a decision in the 1980s

that basically said.

376

Kentucky schools must, because

of our constitution in, in the

377

state, provide an equitable

education to everyone in the state.

378

And part of that reform was creating,

site-based decision making councils

379

that were made up of parents and

teachers who made curricular decisions

380

so that you didn't concentrate all that

power into the superintendent hands.

381

So I went to this site based decision

making council and said, here's the

382

thing, no teacher should be required

based upon the identity of a speaker

383

to find a new source material.

384

our superintendent fought

us on this of all things.

385

SB one 50 was proceeded the year

before with SB one, and that actually

386

killed site-based councils, ironically,

under the guise of parents' rights.

387

Dash: Oh yeah.

388

it's

389

always under the, clutching

390

my right to, you know, control

everything my child learns.

391

Willie: yeah.

392

And they love to hide behind

the, like, motto name of the bill

393

instead of the text of the bill.

394

And I'm like, how is a parent's rights?

395

When SB one 50 literally was the first

time that parents had a legal authority

396

in the curriculum, . What they wanted

was to give the authority to one person

397

who could make swift decisions based upon

complaints, as opposed to a site-based

398

counsel that would have to wait.

399

And as opposed to forcing conversation

before decisions were made after SB

400

one, we can do things in the dark.

401

Other irony is that my students

want a, grant $10,000, to buy

402

books with diverse authors.

403

and they did it because.

404

There were so many suicide

attempts so much general misery

405

among their classmates, and so

they did research on their own.

406

They discovered that having books

that reflected people helped in

407

these issues, and so they made a,

a grant proposal, won the grant.

408

The school rejected all of their books.

409

All of them.

410

And of all things, when I got the email

telling, because I can, I sent a list

411

with every title we worked with a curator

who actually went through and gave us

412

a list of all the best books on all the

best lists, If there's a single title

413

you have an issue with, let us know.

414

We'll replace it.

415

And they responded by rejecting

all of them and said, as you know,

416

because of SB one, we can't take them.

417

And I said, all that SB one says

is that the superintendent gets to

418

decide what books are in the library.

419

It doesn't say that you're

not allowed to have books.

420

when you say because of SB one,

you're saying the superintendent won't

421

allow us to have these books written

by black queer and women authors.

422

Dash: What, I mean, what was the

point where you said, okay, I think

423

I'm, I'm no longer interested in

this kind of classroom experience.

424

Willie: my first year was horrific.

425

at the time, Kentucky had an

internship that teachers in their

426

first year of teaching had to

complete and then without that

427

completion, they didn't get a license.

428

And that was the year when I was

told you have to be in the, closet

429

Dash: the, the preface to your

book, gay poems for red states.

430

You opened with that anecdote

about the principal saying,

431

no one's gonna protect you,

432

felt that so deeply

433

, Willie: and the sad thing is I'm

not even upset at the person who

434

said that because at the very least

they were telling me the truth.

435

because a lot of people would've

pretended like everything was

436

fine until it wasn't, and then

would've just let me die, you know?

437

We got a from outside of here who did not

understand how here works and had lots

438

of big ideas that did not ultimately fly.

439

But somehow I managed to sneak

tenure in during that time.

440

I was basically going into school,

like it was a fight every single day.

441

I mean, we were still learning great

things, um, but it was still secondary.

442

my primary goal was to make sure students

got civil rights, That students were

443

protected, that when my L-G-B-T-Q students

were bullied, uh, or when students

444

were racist with another student, that

the school actually did something.

445

because so often it felt like they didn't.

446

and I was able to put up with that

and frankly, even thrive in a lot

447

of ways in those circumstances.

448

Um, 2016 changed things.

449

because before then.

450

I had my knowledge of the law on my side.

451

And so when the school would say,

well, you can't put those posters

452

up, then I would say, you have to

pull every single poster down because

453

this is the limited open forum, and

this is settled Supreme Court law.

454

so they would begrudgingly agree,

or when they would say, well,

455

it's your word against theirs,

I would say pull the tapes.

456

If you've ever pulled the tapes for

anyone, you have to do it now or

457

else you're singling out the student.

458

After 2016, racism became a

political standpoint and it was as

459

if we couldn't punish it anymore.

460

the same for really any type of bullying.

461

So first I saw that, and then two I saw.

462

Factions of people who were in no

way connected to the school suddenly

463

start attacking, in my final year.

464

So we had a gay straight alliance

in a rural town that was at

465

its high, 40 students strong.

466

we would oscillate between

20 and 40 member students.

467

their parents were super involved.

468

They would bring, you know,

cookies and these and plan events.

469

And the kids did such cool things.

470

They cleaned parks.

471

They, like I said earlier,

won a grand of $10,000.

472

They, raised money when there were

hurricanes, when there were floods.

473

They, Raise money for

mental health awareness.

474

They taught themselves black

history and queer history.

475

Um, in fact, these kids, they

taught Tuesdays and Thursdays.

476

One day was queer history.

477

One day was black history

after school to each other.

478

because their school wouldn't teach it.

479

and the school was completely silent

as if these kids never existed.

480

We had a bass fishing team at this school.

481

I know because we got emails weekly

about the bass fishing team and what

482

they were doing out by the school.

483

But when my students.

484

We're in Time Magazine for their advocacy.

485

the school was silent except

for the teacher who mocked them.

486

when my students, want to grant the school

was silent when I met the president on

487

behalf of the work that my students did.

488

My school was silent as

if this wasn't happening.

489

And so this group of people, they're

actually connected to some church.

490

I don't even know.

491

I don't care enough to go learn about it.

492

except that I know that this church

is connected to the church in

493

Tennessee with the pastor who burns

books and claims people are witches.

494

Greg Lock.

495

Willie: I think, I think that's him.

496

these people, started basically going

to board meetings, saying that it was

497

inappropriate that a person who Is openly

gay should be a teacher suggesting that

498

there was something nefarious about

the fact that I existed, suggested

499

there was something nefarious about the

fact that L-G-B-T-Q students existed.

500

and I had to call a lawyer

who said, don't say anything.

501

You need to be silent.

502

then I was silent.

503

And during that silence, they, I assume

got annoyed and then moved to harassing me

504

online, They would even write like skits

about what they thought my classroom must

505

look like, and attribute the, the words in

these skits to me, people who didn't even

506

have kids in the schools were doing this.

507

and I was still silent because

that's what the lawyer said to do.

508

And then they went after

my former students.

509

they doxed them.

510

They shared photos of them

at their afterschool jobs.

511

I mean, these were still kids, these

were teenagers, or early 20 somethings.

512

they were getting threats as well.

513

And it was at this point that I begged the

school to please say something nice about

514

these students or to share anything about

these students or to do anything at all

515

because they didn't in any way refute it.

516

they didn't in any way say

what my group actually was.

517

and it was at that point that I

realized, okay, as much good as I want

518

to do in the schools, as much good as I

think my presence in the classroom is.

519

If it's causing my students to get

threats, if they're now physically unsafe

520

because I'm here, I don't think this is

the best way to do the work I wanna do.

521

so that's when I knew I really can't, the

actual moment moment happened, I was, it

522

was actually the day before I met, Joe

Biden, teacher of the year get to do this.

523

And I was in DC I went a day early.

524

cause I thought, oh, it would be nice

to just have a little break because

525

everything's been so stressful.

526

And the only other queer teacher in my

department, messaged me early that morning

527

and said they won't let me come to school.

528

because she had made a TikTok and

the TikTok had a cuss word in it.

529

they suggested that somehow she

was unfit to be around children,

530

Dash: clause for teachers?

531

Willie: Um, license said something about

upholding the dignity of the profession,

532

but she was easily able to find

another 20 teachers using curse words.

533

and two weeks is unprecedented,

534

Dash: that's a hell of a story and

I really appreciate you sharing it.

535

I did not know that it

went all down like that.

536

That's, that's incredible

537

children.

538

Willie: So that's when I realized

like, how do I move forward?

539

How do we all move forward

if this is where we are, and

540

that was three years ago.

541

We now see that allowing

politicians to molest children.

542

isn't even a, a stopping point.

543

for, for the group that's

pushing the narrative.

544

I don't think there is one.

545

Dash: No, and I'm, I'm less and less

motivated to try to get inside their

546

minds because I feel like it's nasty in

there and I don't want any of it on me.

547

but when avenues such as those

are closed off to people.

548

not that there are no

others, and so you, you.

549

Like many other folks, I think, and

maybe even us included, have, have

550

transitioned to creativity, to making

art and to using your words you know,

551

maybe some of the same words, but even

some, some better words, a lot of like,

552

freedom, I think in, in your book, I

mean, I, I'm not, I did study poetry

553

in college and I did get my bachelor's

in writing, but I am not a poet.

554

I am an appreciator, but I felt

so much expression in there.

555

Willie: One.

556

Thank you.

557

And you know, I think when I

started writing I can, the moment I

558

started writing, I remember, there.

559

are these moments I think in a, in

a life like this where that just

560

stand out and I won't forget them.

561

And one was the moment I realized

I'm never going back into

562

the classroom, standing there

about to meet the president.

563

And I'm like, how can I be a person

who is like lauded and cheered

564

on and meeting the president?

565

And simultaneously I have to go back

to a school district that will, prevent

566

me from going to the classroom for two

weeks over anything that they can find

567

because my queerness is the problem.

568

Right.

569

was writing an email to my

superintendent begging him to please

570

do something I started writing

the first poem in this collection.

571

Like when I was maybe halfway done with

it, I pulled it over and put it into a

572

separate file and I was like, I don't

know why I'm writing, but I have to.

573

that was the day that

whatever inner child I had.

574

For whom school was a magical place,

who knew what it was, what it could be,

575

for whom school was a safe place that

protected him, who watched the school

576

be silent while kids were threats.

577

who was watching me choose silence

because a lawyer told me to.

578

I think that was the moment that kid

boiled over was like, I need to speak.

579

And one of the things I really wanted

to do in this collection is think about.

580

Every single person in my family,

when I think about Appalachia, think

581

about these people who are denied

a voice who are denied access to

582

poetry, who are sort of painted with a

monolithic picture as somehow uncouth

583

and uncivilized and uneducated.

584

yet who say some of the most

beautifully poetic things that

585

I hear in any other discourse.

586

And so I said, okay, I'm gonna

pretend that Appalachia, even though

587

I know that Appalachians have been

contributing poetically, you know,

588

since Appalachia's been here.

589

But what if the people I come

from had been writing poetry

590

this whole time completely cut

off from the rest of the world?

591

What would we have made it look like?

592

how would we have honored those

things that we're already doing?

593

and that's really what I

wanted this book to be.

594

Dash: Yeah, hearing you talk

about, school as a safe place too,

595

like Beck talks about this a lot.

596

Becky Risner Jenkins: I

was that kind of nerd.

597

Willie: You that kid.

598

I'm working on a collection right

now about 80 pages in, and I'm

599

remembering all those moments.

600

'cause school was, I would go home and

teach my sister what I learned that day.

601

she was ready for kindergarten, when I

wasn't, because it, it's, it's magic.

602

Tell me how it's not magic.

603

When Ms.

604

Sloan would stand in front of us

and we were all sitting in the floor

605

and we didn't know the letter T and

she looked at us and said, I think

606

I can change the world and make sure

that you can learn another letter T.

607

And she says some words and she moves

her hands and then 20 kids suddenly

608

know something they didn't know before.

609

Right.

610

That's transformative and it's magic.

611

Dash: Yeah.

612

Willie: and that's what I,

613

wanted to do.

614

And what I do know from experience

is I had rural kids in a small

615

town in a Title IX school.

616

Who were speaking French conversationally

and winning every competition in

617

the state because I knew that the

primal sin is believing that they

618

can't, the primal sin is not walking

in with that same imagination

619

that my kindergarten teacher had

620

Dash: are you a a theory nerd about

like pedagogy and all that stuff?

621

Willie: to some extent, especially,

uh, language acquisition.

622

Dash: I'm a big, uh, Vygotsky fan

and I have been thinking a lot about

623

the, like scaffolding and, and the

way the ways in which like queer,

624

rural youth are often not scaffolded,

and I, I think that that's actually

625

probably, that's an older experience.

626

That may be just how queerness

was and, and in rural areas it's

627

more, it's isolated to a point

that that hasn't changed much.

628

Willie: how can we have a zone proximal

development When there's no one nearby?

629

You know, we can't.

630

Dash: proximity.

631

Willie: Yeah.

632

I remember, I remember being 20 and

I came out, the most terrified of

633

queer people because I thought, I,

I've already failed at one culture.

634

I don't wanna fail at another, you know?

635

Dash: know.

636

Willie: I remember that feeling.

637

And, we're studying so many of these

other, these kids now up for that.

638

and, and, and the data shows that

like, it is worse than people think

639

because the media coverage is like,

oh, every school is turning your

640

kids trans and whatever, whatever.

641

But the number of gay straight

alliances is at the lowest point

642

it's been since the nineties.

643

Like we've lost and it, it, the,

644

We lost 20 years in about three years.

645

and it's, it's cowardly allies period.

646

we lost the number of students who

say there are at least three people

647

in the building, that they feel that

they can trust that data it's down

648

into the nineties category again.

649

not only can they not step into

queerness by seeing it, they can't

650

even step into their own queerness

now, in, in whatever terms that they

651

might want to try to define that.

652

Dash: something else about

Appalachia anyway is the

653

resiliency and ingenuity folks.

654

Any given thing can be queered,

any given third space can

655

become a queer third space.

656

And I just remember as I got older and

came out into the wide world and stuff

657

and started to think about myself as

I always knew that I was, there was

658

something wrong with me and I constructed

this whole like uh pretend morality

659

so like, getting away from that, I,

I started going like, you know what?

660

may have been doing straightness wrong,

but I wasn't doing queerness wrong because

661

there's no wrong way to do queerness.

662

And that was so liberating.

663

and it also felt very redneck to me.

664

Queerness feels Appalachian.

665

Willie: I forget the name of it.

666

He, he's in the Fox Fire series, queer

seventies from, not county, but he talks

667

about this idea that he was living a

queer existence in Eastern Kentucky.

668

And then he goes to New York expecting

to find this, you know, liberatory

669

And he's like, there's so many roles,

you know, top bottom, bear this.

670

And he said, I think I was freer

as a queer person in Appalachia.

671

Dash: in Appalachia there's the

legislation or the legislature or

672

administrations tend to be very

regressive or repressive or flat

673

out to get you, but the people is

a totally different, and it's flip

674

flopped out here in the blue states.

675

The blue states are like, you have

access, there's, there's rights and

676

resources, and people aren't, going

hungry where I'm living anyway.

677

that is not a blanket statement about

all blue states, but the people,

678

there's not a sense of freedom or

liberation in queer spaces here.

679

and I just can't quite

get into the groove.

680

Willie: It's, so it was

actually in Minnesota.

681

that I kind of first had the

chance to talk about this.

682

I was invited to speak by very, very

nice people, but the question that I

683

was asked was like, basically, wow,

it must be so exciting for you to

684

come from somewhere as backwards as

Kentucky, and now get to be in, you St.

685

Paul, right?

686

how liberating does it feel?

687

and then I had to say

like, honestly, not at all.

688

I can go into any bar in West

Virginia and quickly size up, who's

689

the good guy, who's the bad guy?

690

Because everyone in West Virginia has had

to ask themselves, am I homophobic or not?

691

Right?

692

They, it is, they have settled

this in their mind, the

693

same for am I racist or not?

694

in Vermont.

695

Do not ask themselves, am I

696

racist?

697

Because they assume racism is a

southerner burning across in a yard.

698

so I heard the most racist things

I had ever heard in Vermont by

699

teachers who would call themselves

progressive, but didn't know that

700

it was inappropriate to say things.

701

And I couldn't teach them

because you can't learn from

702

some dumb hillbilly, right?

703

, I would say the same thing is, true for

me, if I'm in, sort of a progressive

704

blue space that's hip and metropolitan,

know who's gonna mock where I'm from or

705

how I talk when I go into that space.

706

And I can't discern them because no

one has had to ask themselves how

707

they feel about rural people, how they

feel about hillbillies, if it's right

708

or wrong to mock an entire culture.

709

the way I look at it In a randomized

10 people from Kentucky, six are

710

conservative, four are liberal

in a randomized New York sample.

711

Six are liberal, four are conservative.

712

So in a given room of 10

people, we're talking about

713

the difference of two people.

714

that's how different we are.

715

It's not that different.

716

It's the legislation that's different.

717

but a result of that legislation

is, the stereotype that gets

718

associated with the other people

719

Dash: is influential.

720

It is,

721

Willie: yeah.

722

Dash: these, it's not that,

Appalachia or, rural are, they go

723

unfazed by these political forces.

724

if you squeeze a population

enough, they're gonna start

725

to look for the boogeyman.

726

But talking about West Virginia,

Beck, what was the name of your

727

bar that you used to go to?

728

Becky Risner Jenkins: The Stonewall.

729

Dash: you, did you go to the

Stonewall in West Virginia?

730

Becky Risner Jenkins: In

Huntington, West Virginia.

731

Yeah,

732

was my first gay bar.

733

Willie: same year.

734

Becky Risner Jenkins: Yeah,

735

Willie: been 17 or 18.

736

sneaking not probably was 18, but Yeah.

737

we used to a girl I went to high

school with was dating a girl who

738

had a car that could get there and we

would all pile in six or seven thick

739

in this, car drive to Huntington.

740

once we went and a drag queen had propped

the door open so we could sneak in.

741

I remember this part.

742

that was when we were in college.

743

I was probably 20 and uh, what's

the other one that ends in wood?

744

It was the kinda,

745

Becky Risner Jenkins: the driftwood.

746

Willie: yeah.

747

Dash: man.

748

That sounds

749

Becky Risner Jenkins: it was, but

that's where he went to play pool.

750

That was the best place to play pool.

751

Dash: sounds awesome.

752

Willie: But Stonewall, back in

the day, they had all, you could

753

drink beer for $5 and you would

754

little twink.

755

I mean, it was nasty.

756

I, I'm guessing they just took Natty

light and poured water on top of it.

757

I think serve it in little styrofoam

cups, but I saw many a twink on the floor.

758

Dash: out everywhere.

759

it was screwdrivers that they all drank.

760

'cause you could get screwdriver

for 50 cents at the, at the bar

761

I snuck into down in Knoxville.

762

I wanted to ask you about the

Jerry Springer poem because

763

fucking love this poem so much.

764

Not just because Jerry Springer

is a universal truth, I think.

765

but like finding Appalachian

representation and queer representation

766

Appalachian representation on

TV is always so problematic and

767

it always is slightly queered.

768

but the way that we're so thirsty for

it, that when we find it in the most

769

we're just like, oh, hell yeah.

770

I've seen on Jerry

Springer today or on Cops.

771

Did you ever watch Cops

Looking for your Neighbors?

772

Willie: I, I really am, I'm so grateful

for Jerry Springer and to Jerry Springer.

773

Dash: know.

774

Willie: a weird mom.

775

I have a weird mom, but I mean, I guess

I'm thinking of her like at the presence

776

that got to control us when we were kids.

777

Mom is one 13 kids from a, a

Pentecostal from the head of

778

a holler in Appalachia and is

779

Becky Risner Jenkins: It's my family.

780

Dash: was about to say, I think your,

781

you, and Beck might be cousins.

782

Willie: we might

783

Becky Risner Jenkins: Yeah.

784

I have 41.

785

first cousins.

786

So you, just add you in there.

787

Willie: Yeah.

788

I got over a hundred, so I'm sure

it has to, mix in at the edges.

789

but Yeah.

790

she would wake us up at one in the

morning to watch Jerry Springer.

791

I remem I remember one, a few episodes

in particular we're like, one was the

792

KKK was on, and they were talking to

a black preacher, and mom wanted us

793

to know racism was and why it was bad.

794

this was an accessible way.

795

And unlike other places that didn't

want to get dirty, like Jerry

796

Springer brought out the worst

people and we gotta learn from them.

797

My mom would make us go.

798

she was so committed to.

799

form of anti-racism.

800

Like we had black Santa

Clauses because mom was like

801

watching Santa Claus be white.

802

or like we had, she would redo her

house all the time, but there was

803

once when it was all Black Angels.

804

I, looking back, I'm like, I don't

even know what to think of it.

805

Because on the one hand, like

what she was doing, the intention

806

was to make things more diverse.

807

The intention was beautiful.

808

It's slightly odd, I guess.

809

I think from people who might try

to say like, oh, it's performative,

810

but like, I know her heart.

811

It was not performative.

812

This is how my mom responded.

813

so Yeah.

814

Jerry Springer the opportunity

to see queer people with lives.

815

when Gay Poems for Red States came out.

816

And we were thinking of people

who might wanna blurb it.

817

one of the first people to

come up was Leslie Jordan.

818

Dash: Aw.

819

Willie: and we sent him a copy and

he was so gracious and responded and

820

said like, Oh I'm so proud of Willie.

821

I hope this book does so well.

822

I'm in the middle of a move and

I hope, I hope I can get, get to

823

read it, but I might not in time.

824

and he passed away like a week later.

825

we sent it Jerry Springer,

who passed away a week later.

826

then they said, we can

send it to RuPaul and

827

we're Send it to Rand Paul.

828

Dash: Oh, bless him though.

829

Willie: Yes.

830

I wa I don't like, I don't wanna

use the word inner child because I

831

feel like it has really specific,

notions sort of attached to theory.

832

But there is a kid who exists

somewhere, that kid writing this, and

833

taking advantage of, I don't know,

whatever skills or vocabulary or

834

ability to sort of express his world.

835

but I, mean, it was sometimes like,

I could just feel him sitting there,

836

wanting to write, and I would get

up every morning and just say,

837

all right, I'm gonna sit down.

838

And then I didn't know what I was

gonna write, but would tell me, this

839

is what he wants to talk about today.

840

Dash: love that idea of

another piece of you narrating.

841

it's not someone else, it's still you.

842

Folks who have come up from

marginalized backgrounds or in places

843

of, adversity, they're squashing

some part of themselves down

844

Willie: Well, I think you're 100%

right and I think especially queer

845

people and the groomer motif,

846

Dash: Hmm.

847

Willie: when I shared the cover

of this book for the first time,

848

multiple people on Twitter say,

why is there a child on your book?

849

You effing groomer, blah, blah, blah.

850

And I'm thinking, I'm being accused

of grooming my own childhood self.

851

how twisted the right is.

852

But it also is how I.

853

It is a story that every gay man

from the eighties born in, maybe

854

even the early nineties, carries

with him this knowledge that you're

855

gonna be accused of harming kids.

856

And I think for a lot of queer people

or a lot of gay men, especially in their

857

late thirties, early forties and older,

separated themselves from their childhood

858

self as much as they possibly can.

859

One, because we saw childhood as something

that queerness couldn't be a part of.

860

And two, because we saw ourselves as

often so weak and vulnerable during

861

childhood, that we wanted to separate

ourselves from it as much as possible.

862

Dash: a

863

Willie: yeah.

864

Dash: Appalachia.

865

I was even

866

Willie: Yeah.

867

Dash: like gendering and the way that

everything is so gendered and like

868

effeminacy is, one of the worst things

you can, you can be, even for women,

869

women can't be effin a lot of times.

870

We, we joked a lot about how hard

it was to tell if a girl was a

871

lesbian or just, in the four H,

872

Willie: I have an aunt who sleeps with

a pistol because she shoots copperheads

873

in the middle of the night because

her house, like is infested with them.

874

Dash: is so

875

Willie: not queer.

876

She carries a wallet in her back pocket.

877

but Yeah.

878

my husband's from metro Atlanta when

he first came down, he was really

879

shocked at how rigid, the norms are,

I was shocked when I moved to Georgia.

880

I'm like, is everyone, I

thought everyone was gay.

881

Every man I saw in Athens, Georgia

placed in Floyd County would've been

882

trying to, advertise his queerness.

883

that, that's how I would've perceived it.

884

But I'm like, no, they just wear

shorts that short talk about cake.

885

The other side of this is

that my father-in-law thinks

886

I'm somehow super masculine.

887

and I'm like the biggest sissy ever,

888

but I was helping him move and it was

one of the, first times I met him and

889

he was like, y'all gonna have to get,

somebody to come take that piece of

890

furniture part your mom about that.

891

And I mean, it, it's

some kind of complicated.

892

And I go, that's just a wing knife.

893

We can remove that from

the top of collapse side.

894

So I like screw the top

off and pull the sides off.

895

And he goes, oh my God,

you're some kind of genius.

896

the other time his brake lot wasn't

working on his camper and I kind of looked

897

under the camper and saw a wire and I

just heard like some Appalachian voice

898

in my head go better ground that wire.

899

So

900

touched it in the metal and the brake

lot started working and he thinks

901

I'm some sort of mechanical genius

902

Dash: it's just that adaptability.

903

Willie: Yeah.

904

Dash: well, before we close out, I was

wanting to get you to tell us a little

905

bit about this novel you got coming out.

906

Willie: Absolutely.

907

And, you know, I don't know that I've

even gotten to tell its Genesis story.

908

I was, in Montreal.

909

so the city is named after mo, a royal

mountain, which is a mountain in the

910

middle of Montreal for some reason.

911

and it has a pretty delicate walking

path up to the top of the mountain.

912

And it's about a 45 minute, you can use

the word hike, but I mean, it's paved.

913

I was walking up at completely

out of breath, had to sit

914

down and take a breather.

915

and a woman probably older than

80, wearing high heels just

916

breezed past me, mid conversation.

917

so, I was thinking.

918

That woman as I'm walking up and I ke,

I have this image from childhood that

919

pops up and it's of me and my cousin.

920

We were pushing our bicycles to

the head of the holler 'cause

921

we, we couldn't ride 'em up.

922

We got tired, cause we wanted

to ride the bikes back down.

923

And this little mean ginger girl looks

at us and I mean, she was so mean.

924

She might as well been smoking even

though she's about nine years old.

925

But she goes, and bikes work

better if you sit on, them.

926

I couldn't stop laughing about her.

927

So when I get to the of the mountain,

I, I sketch out a quick little

928

poem about the experience, and.

929

It's nostalgic.

930

It, it's not a really heavy poem.

931

There's a bit of a

moment at the end of it.

932

but that little girl, that little

ginger girl in my poem was like standing

933

by me when I tried to go to sleep,

going like, you need to tell my story.

934

Like she was mad about it, So then I sat

down and wrote, a story and it was the

935

same moment happened in the story that

was in the poem, but it's completely

936

different now even though the exact same

action happens, like once we've been

937

sitting with this little girl all day,

we understand that moment differently.

938

that's how the poem sort of started this

idea that, we can't really know anything

939

about the people that we're looking at.

940

We can't really know anything about the

moment that we're looking at because

941

truth is so freaking complicated.

942

and the more I wrote, the more I realized

what my heart was wanting to tell, Was

943

a story about those people who are so

often in the backgrounds of stories and

944

don't get to have a moment who don't get

to have their truth sort of on display.

945

so it's a book about blue

collar women who are doing good.

946

it's a book about queer people.

947

about loss.

948

it's really, a reminder that if

everything is a painting, you

949

can't pull certain colors out.

950

You can't pull certain people out.

951

You're stuck with us

whether you want us or not.

952

even if the perception

of what we are is torn

953

Dash: Wow.

954

that sounds really powerful.

955

again is Tore All To Pieces.

956

Willie: one of the reasons, I'll be

honest, that I stuck with this title

957

is I had sent my, I sent a poem in

to a very large queer review, that.

958

solicited it.

959

and then the editor returned it

and the poem was written from the

960

perspective of a boy in Eastern Kentucky.

961

And he used the phrase, tore up, underpin

him, and the editor changed it to torn up.

962

and I ended up not publishing, with them,

963

Dash: What the hell?

964

Willie: Oh, the, that's a

whole different conversation.

965

We could have.

966

The ignorance I've seen, from supposed

progressive people who have these lovely

967

calls, uh, about, being open to the

experiences of minoritized people, then

968

they don't like, or don't understand

the experience, but assume that they do.

969

Dash: to tell our

970

us,

971

Willie: Yeah, Well, they, they wanna tell

it in a way that makes sense to them.

972

Uh, for example, I had a, a short story

that went to a review, and I kid you

973

not, the editor wrote back and said,

I needed to work on characterization

974

because of the characters appears

to take herself very seriously, but

975

uses words like y'all and ain't.

976

Dash: somebody just today that I was

talking to the podcast space the queer

977

redneck podcast space is there's a bit

of a vacuum there We're kind of you

978

know Rae Garringer with Country Queers

has done a whole lot of multimedia

979

stuff there But um folks in the comedy

space I get lots of questions like

980

which one are you making fun of here?

981

and somebody today said, why would you

smash these two disparate themes together?

982

And I said, First of all, it's

just, this is what we are.

983

Like, what do you mean

we're queer Appalachians.

984

you asking, why do we exist if you ask

that I kind of appreciated that moment

985

of clarity you may not know what you

just said, but what you said to all

986

these people was, why do you exist?

987

How dare, how dare you exist Actually.

988

Willie: Somebody way back in the day

when I had Twitter, had commented

989

like, I don't understand why a gay

person would live in Appalachia.

990

so I responded earnestly, and then

reposted the response, but said, live

991

in Appalachia because I think it will

be easier to convince Appalachians to

992

treat queer people with dignity than

it will be to convince living in blue

993

states treat Appalachians with dignity.

994

It's gonna be a lot easier, And someone

responded, who lived in Oregon, who was

995

like, it was a big gut punch for me.

996

she said, because I realized how often

I have probably engaged in behaviors

997

that are what you're talking about

without realizing I was doing it.

998

it's amazing to me, how little people

can know about a subject but well, this

999

is, this is part of the, issue, right?

00:45:14,316 --> 00:45:17,996

they are educated they think

in their educated state that

00:45:17,996 --> 00:45:22,736

southerners, hillbillies, Appalachians

rednecks, that all these people

00:45:22,736 --> 00:45:24,476

exist in some less than state.

00:45:24,772 --> 00:45:27,712

only person who can teach you

about what it means to be a queer

00:45:27,712 --> 00:45:29,032

hillbilly is a queer hillbilly.

00:45:29,032 --> 00:45:31,582

But we are precluded from being

allowed to teach them anything

00:45:31,582 --> 00:45:32,722

because we are a hillbilly.

00:45:32,890 --> 00:45:35,830

Dash: And just the stuff that we

make and do and the way we are.

00:45:35,830 --> 00:45:37,540

I mean, it's just, we are delightful.

00:45:37,540 --> 00:45:38,110

You know,

00:45:38,110 --> 00:45:38,350

Willie: Yes.

00:45:38,698 --> 00:45:41,098

Dash: I hope more people

start writing poems.

00:45:41,128 --> 00:45:44,968

I hope more, queer Appalachians

or Appalachians in general,

00:45:44,968 --> 00:45:47,218

start to get on the airwaves.

00:45:47,308 --> 00:45:50,698

there's all these jokes about, there's

too many podcasts out there or whatever.

00:45:50,698 --> 00:45:54,508

I don't, maybe that's neither here nor

there, but I know that there's still not

00:45:54,508 --> 00:45:59,218

enough variety of voices on the airwaves,

I'm not entertaining notions of there

00:45:59,218 --> 00:46:04,293

should be fewer voices out there until we

have a saturation of diversity on the air.

00:46:04,293 --> 00:46:07,473

Willie: the good thing about having

queer Appalachian voices, about having

00:46:07,473 --> 00:46:12,543

black Appalachian voices is I remember

growing up even though the people in

00:46:12,543 --> 00:46:18,143

my immediate vicinity, didn't affirm

queerness, from television alone that

00:46:18,143 --> 00:46:21,833

there were people out there who thought

that L-G-B-T-Q people deserved dignity.

00:46:21,893 --> 00:46:25,073

That there were people out there who were

fighting for gay marriage, that there was

00:46:25,073 --> 00:46:29,393

an entire part of America that thought

the queer part of me deserved dignity.

00:46:29,393 --> 00:46:32,573

No part of America thought that the

Appalachian part of me deserved dignity.

00:46:32,856 --> 00:46:35,886

part of America will listen to the

Appalachian part of me, but it will

00:46:35,886 --> 00:46:38,766

listen to me as a queer person, so

I can at least use that queerness

00:46:38,766 --> 00:46:40,266

as an inroad to get them to listen.

00:46:40,266 --> 00:46:41,436

and I find that powerful.

00:46:41,436 --> 00:46:44,960

I'm grateful that I'm queer,

because I get to talk to people

00:46:44,990 --> 00:46:46,280

who otherwise wouldn't talk to me.

00:46:48,882 --> 00:46:52,722

Dash: I am really enjoying your,

um, social media content and

00:46:52,722 --> 00:46:56,442

how often TikTok thinks that

you're a, homesteading lesbian.

00:46:56,533 --> 00:46:57,372

I just really enjoy that.

00:46:57,372 --> 00:47:00,169

Would you mind telling the folks

where they can find you online?

00:47:00,169 --> 00:47:00,769

Willie: Facebook.

00:47:00,769 --> 00:47:01,979

I'm probably the only Willie Edward.

00:47:01,999 --> 00:47:03,019

Taylor Carver Jr.

00:47:03,019 --> 00:47:04,819

and I think I'm Willie Carver Jr.

00:47:04,819 --> 00:47:05,359

Jr.

00:47:05,389 --> 00:47:06,299

At, Instagram.

00:47:06,299 --> 00:47:08,639

uh, someday I'll delete x.

00:47:08,639 --> 00:47:13,079

but with all of the complications,

literally, lawyers recommend that

00:47:13,079 --> 00:47:15,869

when you've had a big moment, you

wait years, before deleting anything.

00:47:15,899 --> 00:47:19,139

but yeah, please follow me on any of

those things and, definitely there's

00:47:19,139 --> 00:47:23,219

a lot of TikTok misidentification, and

right now I'm obsessed with the doll

00:47:23,219 --> 00:47:24,449

that has a cigarette in her mouth.

00:47:24,453 --> 00:47:26,012

Dash: God, I I love that too.

00:47:26,012 --> 00:47:28,585

Are you doing that Those

quotes on there oh my

00:47:29,605 --> 00:47:30,235

funny.

00:47:30,435 --> 00:47:30,705

Willie: I'm up.

00:47:32,308 --> 00:47:32,638

Dash: everybody.

00:47:32,638 --> 00:47:33,898

Go check out Willie's Instagram.

00:47:33,898 --> 00:47:36,748

We'll put the, we'll put links in

the show notes because Yeah, the,

00:47:36,748 --> 00:47:38,825

this little yarn I think it's knit.

00:47:38,825 --> 00:47:41,345

I don't think it's crochet doll with

a cigarette in his mouth, talks.

00:47:41,405 --> 00:47:42,365

Just like your memaw.

00:47:42,425 --> 00:47:43,295

It's just killing me.

00:47:43,295 --> 00:47:45,515

what do you, uh, would you

like to tell, share anything

00:47:45,515 --> 00:47:46,415

with the Queernecks followers?

00:47:46,415 --> 00:47:48,065

We're not very good at

interviewing people, so.

00:47:48,992 --> 00:47:50,552

Willie: Y'all are great

at interviewing people.

00:47:50,865 --> 00:47:53,270

uh, thank y'all for listening

and thank you, both for,

00:47:53,445 --> 00:47:54,495

for doing what you're doing.

00:47:54,495 --> 00:47:57,945

and I love that idea of saturating

spaces because the truth is right now,

00:47:57,945 --> 00:48:01,665

I think it's not that there are too

many, it's, I think, I think socially

00:48:01,665 --> 00:48:06,225

we are moving into a space where not

everyone's consuming the same thing

00:48:06,225 --> 00:48:08,325

there's gonna be a lot more variety.

00:48:08,415 --> 00:48:11,565

and we need all the help we can get

in getting representation out there

00:48:11,565 --> 00:48:13,875

because the marketplace of ideas.

00:48:14,025 --> 00:48:14,655

it's limited.

00:48:14,835 --> 00:48:17,595

so the more queerness

we can get, the better

00:48:17,595 --> 00:48:17,797

the.

00:48:19,492 --> 00:48:19,835

Dash: Oh yeah.

00:48:20,095 --> 00:48:25,075

need to know how queer Appalachia is

and how Appalachian queerness can be

00:48:25,075 --> 00:48:26,785

no matter where it is in the country.

00:48:26,785 --> 00:48:32,185

Your queerness is more akin to Appalachian

ness than you will realize, because the

00:48:32,185 --> 00:48:36,355

tenacity, the ingenuity, the resilience,

the community building, the mutual aid, I

00:48:36,355 --> 00:48:39,835

mean, anybody that wants to know how it's

done just needs to look at Appalachia.

00:48:40,035 --> 00:48:43,545

Willie: My friend, I've got a friend

in Sydney, Australia, and she told

00:48:43,545 --> 00:48:48,495

me once that somehow she happened

to be in some work related training.

00:48:48,495 --> 00:48:52,455

And someone said the word Appalachian

and was asking people like, what thoughts

00:48:52,455 --> 00:48:53,925

do you have when you hear the word?

00:48:53,925 --> 00:48:57,315

And she was like, and I suddenly realized

everything I thought was queer because I

00:48:57,315 --> 00:49:01,908

only say the words Appalachia, with like

queer possums and queer shit all the time.

00:49:01,908 --> 00:49:02,688

And makes me.

00:49:03,875 --> 00:49:07,475

The Appalachians who are most

embracing the term, and embracing

00:49:07,655 --> 00:49:09,395

their roots are the queer folks.

00:49:09,395 --> 00:49:11,938

I think everyone else is

too busy licking police

00:49:12,668 --> 00:49:13,178

Dash: we've done it.

00:49:13,178 --> 00:49:16,122

Had our sermon today, so stay

on this positive route.

00:49:16,322 --> 00:49:22,180

we're super proud of, of you and Kentucky,

producing more and more great artists

00:49:22,180 --> 00:49:23,453

And thanks so much for being here.

00:49:29,838 --> 00:49:33,768

Well, now feels like a good time

for a word from our sponsor.

00:49:34,608 --> 00:49:38,898

This week's episode of Queernecks

is brought to you by the County fair

00:49:39,138 --> 00:49:45,588

an OSHA demilitarized zone and FDA

detente, a third space smorgasbord.

00:49:45,588 --> 00:49:47,898

This year's theme is Carnival of Cows.

00:49:47,998 --> 00:49:51,568

Come on down to the fairgrounds where

the rides are equal parts thrills,

00:49:51,568 --> 00:49:55,048

chills, and duct tape, and the smell

of funnel cakes and cow manure weave

00:49:55,048 --> 00:49:58,828

into the most comforting and nostalgic

olfactory tableau of your life.

00:49:59,312 --> 00:50:02,282

Test your luck at Carnival Games

rigged tighter than ant road's.

00:50:02,282 --> 00:50:02,912

Rum cake.

00:50:02,912 --> 00:50:06,255

Win a goldfish that will definitely

be dead before school starts.

00:50:06,255 --> 00:50:09,105

Or a stuffed bear that smells like

Marlboro Reds and diesel fuel.

00:50:09,105 --> 00:50:12,315

If you're hungry, get yourself a

corn dog longer than your forearm.

00:50:12,315 --> 00:50:15,975

A bucket of curly fries dripping

with molten cheese product and wash

00:50:15,975 --> 00:50:19,485

it all down with a literal gallon

of lemonade shaken by a teenager

00:50:19,485 --> 00:50:21,675

who's definitely not, not uns sober.

00:50:21,675 --> 00:50:24,645

And don't miss the livestock

pavilion where prize winning

00:50:24,645 --> 00:50:26,505

heifers strut like runway models.

00:50:26,505 --> 00:50:29,505

And you'll find at least one rooster

that looks like he's judging your outfit.

00:50:29,505 --> 00:50:32,685

Pat them all telling them how they're

the prettiest you've ever seen.

00:50:32,685 --> 00:50:35,475

And on your way out, sneak a

photo of the greased pig Chase

00:50:35,475 --> 00:50:37,095

signs for your grinder profile.

00:50:37,295 --> 00:50:39,185

A Ferris wheel ride with your crush.

00:50:39,245 --> 00:50:40,895

A little hand brush in the midway.

00:50:41,015 --> 00:50:44,195

That electric spark when you both

reach for the same deep fried Oreo.

00:50:44,195 --> 00:50:47,765

The country fair holds all the liminal

potential of your first time sneaking

00:50:47,765 --> 00:50:50,345

into a gay bar, but you don't have

to worry about getting grounded.

00:50:50,345 --> 00:50:53,195

If you get caught, you might still

get crabs from the toilet seat though.

00:50:53,295 --> 00:50:55,065

Put on your best flannel fashion forward.

00:50:55,065 --> 00:50:58,795

Look, grab your last $5 and your

senses of wonder and humor and

00:50:58,795 --> 00:51:02,025

come on down to the county fair

proudly sponsoring queer necks.

00:51:02,225 --> 00:51:02,975

Becky Risner Jenkins: That's awesome.

00:51:03,382 --> 00:51:05,992

Dash: The county fair is

not really an experience.

00:51:05,992 --> 00:51:08,422

I actually had that much growing

up, but now it's one of my

00:51:09,050 --> 00:51:10,670

Becky Risner Jenkins:

Oh, I went every year.

00:51:10,670 --> 00:51:12,650

The demolition derby was my favorite.

00:51:13,552 --> 00:51:13,632

Dash: I'm so jealous.

00:51:13,632 --> 00:51:15,192

Becky Risner Jenkins: I gotta

love a good demolition derby.

00:51:15,192 --> 00:51:16,362

It's, the redneck in me.

00:51:16,694 --> 00:51:19,604

Dash: it's, I mean, I know I've said

this before, but it's just the lifecycle

00:51:19,604 --> 00:51:23,834

of, it engineered things, it's,

that's the perfect re reduce, reuse,

00:51:23,834 --> 00:51:26,304

recycle farm equipment or whatever, or

00:51:26,572 --> 00:51:29,292

Becky Risner Jenkins: Yeah, they

do buses, even like school buses.

00:51:29,292 --> 00:51:31,032

They do a school bus derby down there.

00:51:31,032 --> 00:51:31,062

I

00:51:31,062 --> 00:51:31,757

Dash: I don't know if I would

00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:32,020

Becky Risner Jenkins: and

00:51:32,057 --> 00:51:33,589

Dash: you ever drive

in a demolition derby?

00:51:33,844 --> 00:51:35,617

Becky Risner Jenkins: hell no, chicken.

00:51:35,739 --> 00:51:36,999

Dash: out with whiplash or something.

00:51:37,188 --> 00:51:37,458

Becky Risner Jenkins: Yeah.

00:51:37,458 --> 00:51:39,438

I'm way too I, I'm way too breakable.

00:51:39,438 --> 00:51:42,138

Dash: I don't know if this feels true

because I have done so many stupid things.

00:51:42,338 --> 00:51:43,118

Just for the hell of it,

00:51:43,701 --> 00:51:44,661

Becky Risner Jenkins: Amen to that.

00:51:44,661 --> 00:51:48,021

Dash: but for demolition derby,

I'm like, oh, no, no, not me.

00:51:48,221 --> 00:51:50,681

Becky Risner Jenkins: My neighbor,

uh, I had a neighbor that helped me.

00:51:50,681 --> 00:51:54,191

a whole lot when I was down at mom's,

and he entered and he won his heat.

00:51:54,191 --> 00:51:57,463

he came in like third of

the, over uh, I don't know.

00:51:57,463 --> 00:51:58,273

I couldn't tell you.

00:51:58,308 --> 00:52:01,487

I'm not good at naming cars, Yeah.

00:52:01,517 --> 00:52:02,477

Beat up old car

00:52:02,677 --> 00:52:05,587

Dash: I might do the, the

little, uh, riding lawnmower one.

00:52:05,677 --> 00:52:07,314

I don't know, they don't go very fast.

00:52:07,514 --> 00:52:08,024

Becky Risner Jenkins: Yeah.

00:52:08,031 --> 00:52:08,721

that could be fun

00:52:13,774 --> 00:52:17,674

This week's noun of Appalachian

interest is gas station chicken.

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Gas station chicken isn't just a food,

it's a rite of passage in Appalachia.

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It's basically our soul food, the

kind of meal that says, yes, I

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do have a cousin named Bebo, and

yes, he is on his third wedding.

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Thank you for asking.

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You ain't gonna find this stuff

in some big city Whole Foods?

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No, sir.

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You gotta pull into the station where

the gas pumps still click in over

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in dollars and cents and inside.

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There's a fryer that's been in continuous

operation since the Carter administration.

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That fryer seen more history than

your high school history teacher.

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The chicken comes in two speeds,

fresh outta the grease, and I've

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been under this heat lamp long enough

to qualify for social Security.

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Either way, it's perfect.

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You can get it with tater

wedges the size of your forearm.

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We call 'em Jojo's, where I come from,

or if you're lucky, and it's Thursday,

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a side of frog legs because nothing

says fine dining, like deep fried

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amphibian next to a Pepsi cooler.

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let's not forget the packaging, the flimsy

styrofoam clams shell that always springs

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open in the passenger seat like it's

got a ven deta against your upholstery.

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one wrong turn.

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And suddenly your Camry smells like

Colonel Sanders retirement plan.

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There's also the mystique

of gas station chicken.

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Like why does it always taste

better when you purchased it next to

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windshield wiper fluid and slim gems?

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Is it the grease in the air vents?

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The spiritual blessing of Marlboro smoke

floating in from the lottery ticket line.

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We may never know, but

the science is settled.

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Gas station, chicken slaps.

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and every town has one gas

station that's famous for it.

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In my hometown.

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It's the Briar patch Open

24 7 365 days a year.

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And they have everything from

racing fuel to crockpots to

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live bait, to yes fried chicken.

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Folks will argue about it like

they're debating politics.

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Nah, you gotta go over to

the BP by the Dollar General.

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Their chicken's crispier.

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You gotta stop in at

the Briar patch though.

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The gas station chicken isn't just dinner.