There are countless successful introverts that include an A-list of celebrities, CEO's, Keynote Speakers, authors and more. Yet being an introvert is not always easy, especially in environments where the loudest voices tend to get the attention.

My friend Terrance Lee is and introvert (like me), leadership coach and the author of Quiet Voice Fearless Leader. His mission is to help introverts reach their full potential fearlessly. In this episode we clarify some myths around introverts and discuss how introverts can and should expect to be just as successful as anyone else in their business, workplace and life.

Please share this episode with an introvert you love!

And one thing that I learned was that I could absolutely lead as an introvert. For so long I thought that I had to be something different. I thought I had to be somebody different in order to lead teams in order to be effective. And I learned that I, I could lead and I could lead. Well, welcome

To leadership. I'm your host, Aaron Keith Hawkins, keynote speaker, author, and today your gift giver. If you haven't yet received your free copy of my latest book, the Art of Trust and Influence, head on over to Aaron Keith hawkins.com/trust to grab your copy. It is your how to manual for ethically improving your ability to earn trust and influence in your workplace and at home. I believe you'll find it massively valuable. That's Aaron Keith hawkins.com/trust. Now let's jump into today's episode. Hello and welcome to Leadership. I want to introduce a guest I've been really looking forward to speaking with Terrence Lee, uh, author of Quiet Voice, fearless Leader, 10 principles for Introverts to awaken the Leader Inside. I look forward to, to the people that listen to the show, whether they identify as an introverted person or not. I really want everyone to leave feeling empowered, which is why I wanna have you on a show empowered, either because they are an introvert and they're gonna learn something maybe about themselves or maybe about some, some limiting, uh, thoughts or beliefs they may have that, uh, you may be able to help with. And also for my extroverted friends out there, cuz I've got plenty of 'em that honestly, when we, uh, I think one of the most empowering things we can do is understand more about each other and different personality types and things of that nature. So I'm looking forward to you and your words of wisdom, especially on the leadership front. Welcome, Terrence. I appreciate you being here.

Yeah, thank you for having me. I'm really looking forward to, uh, the discussion.

I wanna jump in right away and ask you this when it comes to your book, quiet Voice Fearless Leader, which by the way, for, for those listening, you can get the first chapter at Quiet voice fearless leader.com. Terrance, was there a moment that triggered you to write this book? Or was it sort of a gradual thing and you just decided, you know what? I've been at this introvert thing my whole life, it's time to write a book about it because I've had some things going on. How did that work out for you as far as putting pen to paper? Yeah,

Great question. So, you know, to be completely honest, uh, it's a book that I think was inside of me for a long time, but I just didn't know it was there. So, um, you know, I started out, uh, pretty much in middle school, like around 13, 14. I had a situation that happened that really changed, um, my personality. I started to really draw inward. Um, I lost a lot of my confidence, I'll say, in terms of speaking up in front of people in terms of, um, you know, being in front of the class. I didn't, I didn't want anything to do with that stuff, uh, when I got to around 13, 14 years old. And so, uh, they really carried into, you know, high school and college and my career. And eventually I started to have people say that they saw leadership potential in me.

Uh, when I started working in my engineering career. And I didn't know what they were talking about , I was like, who, like me, leadership potential, what do you mean? And people would say this. And I started to do presentations even though I was extremely nervous and I didn't wanna talk in front of people. And I started to get better, I started to feel more comfortable. And then I started to get leadership positions, uh, in the corporate world. And through all of that, I learned a lot of lessons on leadership. And one thing that I learned was that I could absolutely lead as an introvert for so long. Yeah. I thought that I had to be something different. I thought I had to be somebody different in order to lead teams in order to be effective. And I learned that I, I could lead and I could lead well.

So quiet voice, fearless leader is really something that, uh, you know, was sparked about three years ago. Uh, that's when I started to write it. And you know, the book came out in October of 2021. So we just crossed our one year mark here. Uh, to date it's sold over 9,000 copies, which is just amazing. And, uh, I've gotten to hear a lot of the feedback from fellow introverts on how they've changed and they feel more confident. And it's just, it's just really been amazing to see that. So, um, you know, long answer to your question, the short answer is it's really something that I would say birthed over the past few years and then just recently here, uh, came to fruition.

Yeah, that's, I appreciate you sharing that. I, I was, I was curious. For those of my listeners who don't know, I am also identify as introvert leaning. I will say, from my experience with people that have been in and out of my life, um, in positions of leadership are not, we're all contextual, right? So there are moments where an introvert may act as if they are not, uh, fr to the, to the casual onlooker onlooker and vice versa, where, you know, an extrovert may not appear to be. So, uh, what do you think in, in your experience is the most common misconception that the inter introverts you've had the time and opportunity to speak with think about themselves and what their limitations might be?

Yes, yes. So I think one of the most common, uh, misconceptions, and it's the one that I had for a long time, and it's the thought that my being an introvert is a bad thing. Mm-hmm. , I think a lot of times as introverts, cause we see people that are more extroverted, right? We see the people that are leading the conversations and leading the discussions, and they're the loud one in the room and they know everybody and they network and they do these things. And we assume that we have to be like that. We assume that we have to change who we are at our core in order to be successful or to lead. And that's what I thought for so long. And when we think that way, we really limit ourselves because essentially what we're saying is that I'm not good enough. Like I have to be someone else.

I have to do something else. Right? And, you know, and the reality is that there are definitely things to work on, right? Like, I have had to work on stepping outta my comfort zone at times. I have had to learn to speak up in certain conversations and give my opinion when in the past I may not have done that. So it's not that as the introvert, we just should never change or we should never try to grow. But I think at the core of who we are, we can be who we are and still be successful and get to where we're trying to go. But yeah, I think that's a very big misconception that I see among, you know, fellow introverts is that we just feel like we're not enough or we feel like we have to be someone that we're not.

Yeah, I can relate, especially in my younger years as an adolescent, uh, even before I hit my teens, there was, there were definitely times where I was, well, I will say I was both shy and introverted, meaning I was shy. Like I literally had a fear of interacting or speaking up. It wasn't just me that my comfort level didn't want me to, I was literally scared of it. I do agree, uh, or I do, uh, empathize with that thought of thinking I need to change if I'm gonna get anywhere, right? Because if I want to be in my career and get promoted, I'm gonna need to change into this outgoing leader, uh, and, and change who I am. But that can become a downward spiral, right? Because

Right,

For us as introverts, when we are being louder than we normally would be, uh, or, or, or trying to put on that performance, it's draining . So it kind of kills our energy. Yes. And, and you know, by the time half the days through, you're spent and now you're not at your best, you're not performing as your best and then you feel like a, a a, you can feel like a, uh, a faker or you're an imposter. And that can lead to a downward spiral. And I'm hoping as we are talking about this, that somebody listening goes, oh wow. Yeah. Okay. So I can stop doing that. And it's okay. Was there someone in your career, uh, or someone's in your career who specifically kind of put you under their wing? Or was there somebody that, was there a moment or person who led you to realize I couldn't really thrive? Uh, both professionally and personally as an introvert and I don't need to change anything about myself other than continue to improve my skills? Was there somebody there for you that helped with

That? Yeah, absolutely. So I had a mentor, um, my first kind of large technical lead role that I got. And, you know, he had done the role before and he had a lot of experience in the technical field that we were in. And he really kind of took me under his wing. And at this time, it's funny because I got that role and I didn't think I could do it, honestly. You know, I was kinda like they picked the wrong guy. I mean, I didn't say that, but I was thinking that , um, cuz it was a high visibility role, you know, at a Fortune 500 company. And I was just like, can I do this? And he was really the one that showed me, like, Terrence, you have the technical aptitude, but you also have the personality for it. Mm-hmm. , which I thought my personality was bad, but something he pointed out to me, and I talked to a lot of introverts about this, you know, uh, now on my platform is a lot of times the person that's more introverted is I am in a very good space to be in high pressure situations.

Yeah. Because one thing that I noticed about me and he said was, I was able to be calm in the midst of chaos. So like, when they were just chaotic situations and people were running around with, you know, hair on fire, all these deadlines, all these things, like I was kind of that calm voice and I could get the team to focus and get everyone to kind of calm down. And, and it's not that I wasn't passionate about my work, it's not that I, you know, didn't have a passion to get things done. It's just my approach was different. And he told me that I was a strength, you know, so no one had ever said that to me before. So I think his mentorship in him, not just showing me the technical side of things, but talking to me about leadership and, you know, telling me that my personality and my way of doing things was okay. Like that was really a turning point for me.

Yeah. Yeah. That's, and that's definitely a, that's a powerful truth. And, and for me, I was fortunate as I progressed through my career, uh, for those who don't know, I'm retired now as a police captain. I was on a SWAT team for 15 years, so I was really in positions where I had to be out in front and make some loud immediate decisions in real time. And fortunately I had both peers and leaders who were both introverted and extroverted and Terrence, uh, I don't know how you feel about this. I would not wanna live in a world where everyone was an introvert or an extrovert because I, I, I agree. I think we, I think we need varying shades of both for a wide variety of reasons. You know, uh, I agree. And those who are listening and think, Hmm, you know, I maybe somebody new in their career, somebody who's midway through their career or even in school and, and they're looking to excel or, or grow and just demonstrate more courage and confidence.

What would you say to someone who maybe has been kind of taking a step back, maybe they're in a workplace where there is a lot of loud voices in the positions of charge. And that could be, that can be very intimidating, you know, if someone's an introvert and isn't quite confident and you're in a workplace where people maybe don't know you as well as they could or should, and the feeling can be, yeah, it's gonna be hard to punch through this barrier. What would be your best advice to those people to help them realize that that's not necessarily the case?

Yeah, so, you know, I'm very big on mindset and I think that word gets thrown around a lot, you know, know there's tons of books about mindset and a lot of people talk about it and things. But I think that it's very important to have a good foundation and good core. So, you know, for me, I had to start saying affirmations to myself mm-hmm. , because I would be in meetings with these type A personalities, these people that were talking a lot, people that, you know, were, were loud. Um, I work in the defense industry, so it's a very, yeah. Um, oh yeah. You know, you're dealing with military contracts, military customers. So yeah, there are a lot of type A personalities in the type environment I work in. So I had to start saying things to myself like, I deserve to be in the room.

Yeah. I'm the best speaker in the room. Like if I have a presentation coming up or if I had, you know, a very tough just conversation to have or something like that. Yeah. Um, I would say affirmations to myself, right? So I tell people to, to do that. Like, you have to really know that yes, you're an introvert and being an introvert is not a bad thing. You deserve to be in the room that you're in. You deserve to be in these conversations. So I think it starts there. And the other thing that's very big is to think about your unique skill. So what is some unique skill, some unique quality that you have, and like you are the go-to person for that thing. And so, like for me, that was a game changer. Like, once I discovered what I was good at, that really changed the game for me.

So anyone that's listening to this that's an introvert, you know, don't so much focus on what the extroverted coworkers and leaders are good at. Focus on what you're good at. Like, what is your unique strength, your unique ability, that, that thing that when you think about it, you light up because you're so good at it or you're passionate about it. Right? Um, you know, focusing on that unique strength and then saying those affirmations, realizing that you deserve to be in the room, you deserve to be in the conversation. When you pair those two things together, I think you really put yourself in a good space to win.

Uh, what was it for, for you? Cuz this may be a good opportunity to give someone example of a strength. Uh, I, I'd be happy to share mine, but what was your, what was your strength for you that maybe was that first stepping stone to kind of make you or help you? You know, lean those shoulders back and puff the chest out a little bit and say, okay, there's, there's a lot of value I have here and I need to start exercising more of

It. So one of the ones for me that I noticed, and I use it to this day, I use it all the time, but just observation. Observation. So when I'm in meetings, whether it's, you know, on a, a virtual call or in person, I'm not the first one to always, you know, talk, um, as soon as the conversation starts, right? Like, I'll spend a lot of time observing, I'm watching body language, I'm listening, I'm observing everything that's going on. And then once I've observed the situation, then I'll give my input. And that's something that people would, it's actually kind of funny now cuz some of my like coworkers, like they know I do do it . So Yep. They'll even say like, alright, let, let's see, let's see what Terrence is about to say. You know, it's cause I'll just sit there and I'll listen to what people are saying.

And in the back of my mind I'm just observing. I'm like, oh, this person disagrees with what that person just said. Oh, this person doesn't like that. Like, I'm taking all these observations in and then I'm giving my input. Yeah. So I think a lot of introverts share that because yes, typically, and you know, everyone's not exactly the same. Right. But a lot of times with someone that's more extroverted, they want to get the words out first before observing and thinking through it first, right. Where the introvert may observe, they may think it's just a different way of doing things. Yeah. And I, I find it to be a strength.

Yeah. No, that's, that's beautiful. I, I was trying to hold in my laughter, uh, cuz it felt like you were describing me there for a minute. Uh, my, a lot of my friends used to joke with me, especially on the job back when I was, uh, worked in the, on the street and we would go to some chaotic calls and, you know, we were trying to just get things in order and, and almost every time one or more of my colleagues would walk up and say, okay, what do you see? And they would say it without thinking about it because they know just, you know, how it is where, you know the people that you know, you know who you work with every day, you know what they're like, what their tendencies are. But that was the tendency that people would ask me just naturally not because they were saying, oh, Aaron's the weird one, let's go see what he noticed.

But it would just happen sort of organically. What do you see? Or what do you think? What'd you hear? What do you notice? What am I not, you know, what am I missing? Um, and that really is, uh, it's one of those things where yes, as you said Terrence, and it's so true, we're nobody's all the same. Everyone has their uniqueness, whether they identify, uh, regardless of how they identify. But there are some tendencies, uh, personality-wise, uh, that I think we share as introverts. And yes, because we do have a comfort level in silence, we often use that silence to use to, uh, exercise our other senses or, or hear listening and seeing and, and things of that nature. So naturally I think it's just common sense for someone who is not as loud and boisterous to be noticing things while they allow others to, to speak.

And I think that can, that can be a really big, uh, big, big strength. Jumping over to your book, I, I know it can be hard, and you touched on this briefly earlier, um, but one of the, in your table of contents, in your book, you have a, a section about not comparing yourself to anyone. And sometimes, uh, I think we can all agree that that can be easier said than done. Right. Uh, as you mentioned earlier, you sometimes we see that loud, boisterous, uh, either celebrity or leader or maybe keynote speaker, things of that nature. And it can be, it can be almost all inspiring like, uh, I don't know, like a Tony Robbins type of personal development and these larger than life personalities. Um, but touch on that section. I, I I wanted to ask you about this section on that book and what specific, what lessons specifically you can highlight for us from there. And maybe what led you to make sure you included that in your book.

Yeah. You know, so that, that particular, uh, lesson that came from a experience that I had, I was actually in a network marketing company, uh, for a while doing a, a, a business. And the people that I was in that business with, they were very extroverted. They were very, uh, just the way that they would talk was very different from me. You know, I'm a lot more mellow, a lot more laid back. And I remember when I tried to change my presentation, we would do these presentations on the business to potential clients. And the way that they would do the presentation was very lively and their hands would move a lot. And they were, you know, moving around the room and everything. And I tried to do that. I said to myself, you know, I'm gonna try to do this like they do. And I remember like the first time doing it, it felt a little weird, but I said, okay, I'm gonna keep trying to do this.

By about the third presentation, I was completely drained. I was like, this feels, this is not feel right. I don't even know who I am anymore. Like, what am I, what am I doing? And that was all, cause I was watching what they were doing and I was comparing myself to what they were doing, you know? And yeah, anytime that we do that, we just, not only does it not feel right to us, but other people can tell as well. Cause it's not really us. It's not really who we are, you know? So just comparing ourselves to other people, it never ends up in a win. I think that, you know, one thing to talk about in the book is measuring yourself against yourself and your goals not against someone else's and where they are. Cause everyone has different journeys in terms of where they are and where they're trying to go. So it's really about just measuring, you know, against your own goals and what you're doing. Yeah,

I totally agree. And I, I, I, I think there's a balancing act to that, right? Because if we are in positions of leadership, or even if we're not in a leadership position, if we want to be successful in a career or start a small business, even a business of one or two or 10, there are skills that need to be learned. And ultimately we do need to learn how to communicate more effectively, clearly show confidence and showing confidence just coming. It just comes naturally from being confident. So I think there is the value of skillset. I, it's, it's funny, I, you reminded me a couple years ago, I stumbled on an old, I think it was the first time I recorded myself speaking, and it was for a, uh, a public speaking class in college. Uh, and I hit play on it and had the grainy old video from back, you know, in before HD or any of that stuff.

And it was horrendous. I mean, uh, my, my presentation was horrendous. And it's funny because I remember those years in that time in my life, and I was still the same guy. I was the same introverted person. And if you compare that talk to now, the way I present if I'm on a stage or, or in front of an audience, it's two completely different people. But it's not because I changed who I was. I just developed a different skillset that I needed. Wow. Right? And, and, and, and those developing a skillset can change completely the way you communicate and commander rumors or speak. But that is, I think it's, uh, uh, important to identify what you're saying about not comparing yourself or faking it, but definitely also honoring yourself enough to say, Hey, I can build a skillset. And as, as you're doing now in, in your life, being that leader, being that person, uh, the one who's willing to, to be in charge and make decisions and lead a team, uh, but also build a skillset that helps you along that journey. Uh, but you, you just reminded me of that as you were talking about that faking it, because I definitely felt like I was faking it. So, to everybody listening, don't confuse yourself and think that just because something's uncomfortable that you're faking it, it can also be uncomfortable to be, um, it can also be uncomfortable as you're building a skillset because, you know, we have to be willing to suck at something if we want. Get good at it. Uh, yes. As long as we're being honest about it. Um,

Absolutely, absolutely.

Terrence, in your journey with this, this, uh, the book and, and reaching as many people have you had, what are you finding is some of the common threads of feedback that you're getting from introverts who are reading your book? And definitely on that note, if you are listening and you are not an introvert, you are not allowed to ignore this book, please make sure you go out and get a copy because it's going to help you, uh, as you're listening. It's gonna help you in your life in dealing with the people in your workplace just to understand people better. Um, so I think every introvert should read a book about extroverts and vice versa. Sorry, I got off track there, but I wanted to make sure I mentioned that. But what's, uh, Terrence, what's some of the common threads of feedback that you're getting?

Yeah, it's been, um, it's been interesting, uh, you know, some people, so in every chapter I give personal stories that tie into the principle of, uh, of the chapter mm-hmm. . And so a lot of people have said that they like the vulnerability. Um, I did get very vulnerable. I talked about, you know, my insecurities regarding my introversion. I talked about things I really struggled with for a long time. Um, and there are people that, you know, I think really identified with that. Um, I think a lot of other people, what I've been told again, is just a lot of people feel like being an introvert is a bad thing, or like they have to not be an introvert. And after reading the book, they actually read about like, the fact there are strengths of being an introvert and there are things about it that are, that are positives.

Um, you know, which, which is good cuz that's something that I wanted to come out of it. And then, you know, the other thing is, uh, I'm very big on action. So with every chapter there's an action plan at the end of every chapter. Cuz I didn't wanna just write a book about leadership. And, you know, it's a book, it's a good read, and then people just kind of put it to the side and, and that's it. You know, I really want there to be things where after every chapter, somebody can take principles away and apply it, you know, immediately to their life. So, um, I think a lot of people have, you know, told me about the action plans and they're actually implementing 'em. Like, that's just, that's awesome to see that whenever someone sends me a message like that. Um, so yeah, I mean, it's, it's been great and I just love seeing the, the

Feedback. Awesome. Uh, on, on that note, I I wanna mention it, uh, on your website, uh, there is, and I'll link to this for those who are listening in the show notes, uh, there is a, there's a free checklist, Terrence, that you give away on your website, um, that kind of coincides with your book. Uh, again, it's quiet voice fearless leader.com. Um, tell us about the checklist and what it can be used for and how it can add some value to the people that are listening today.

Yeah, absolutely. So the checklist is networking tips for introverts. Mm-hmm. And it really, uh, honestly came out of, you know, me. I mean, networking is something that I've struggled with for a while. Yeah. Uh, I'm actually gonna do a lot more networking this coming year. Um, I think that, you know, like 2020 ish when I was writing the book 2021 with kind of pandemic and things, a lot of people weren't out and about as much. Yeah. But now I'm starting to find myself, and I think a lot of people are, uh, getting out more, right? And so, sure as introverts, sometimes after a long day at work, we don't wanna be around people. We wanna go home and recharge or, um, just be to ourselves. But I do think that there are times where networking, that's the thing that can take us to that next level. So how do you do that as an introvert, while also maintaining your time to recharge, your time to get that balance mm-hmm. . And so that's really what the checklist is about. And, uh, yeah, that's on my website, it's free and just wanted to put that together for fellow introverts.

What I love about networking is the surprises that it brings. Uh, it's, it, it's funny. Reminded me when I started, when I first started getting into to keynote speaking and I was intentionally reaching out and on my previous podcast I did a number of episodes and just started meeting organically people whose career is just being on stage doing keynotes at conferences and things like that. And the funniest thing that happened was the more I got to know person after person, after person who's, you know, charging these really, I mean, really getting paid great money to, to stand on the stage and getting five figures, uh, just to stand there and, and do a speech for an hour and a half, phenomenal at it. Great skillset. I'd say probably about 75% of those people were naturally and just would just self-describe as introverts, which I really think was Oh wow.

Cool. And it, and it, and it helped me feel, I felt so much better as I, cuz at first I thought it was a quirk, like, oh wow, this guy's an introvert. That's kind of weird. It, and I'm an introvert and I'm calling it weird that somebody who I self identifies as introvert, introverted, chose public speaking as a career. But it, it really does go to your point about the, the power of networking because you'll, you'll get surprised by the people you meet that are doing things that, and for me, in my case, it was meeting all these people that were doing something that was important to me that I wanted to do. And in the back of my mind, if I'm being honest with, with you and, and the listeners here, I had this fear that man, uh, it's, maybe it's just not for me.

Because when I do get on a stage, uh, get on a stage, do my speech and get off like, like you just said, Terrence, I'm ex like, I'm exhausted. I mean, I love it. I feel great, but it's exhausting. I can I describe it as like skydiving, you know what I mean? I love it. I, you, I get a rush from it. But afterwards, you know, I, I want a cold beer in a nap because it, it takes a lot, it takes a lot out of me, but it's, it's meaningful. Um, but I think that's, that, that is important, like you're mentioning about networking to get out there and do those things. Uh, and please, as you're listening, uh, pick a, pick up a copy of that checklist because I think one of the best things that introverts can do is, uh, more than the average non introverted person.

I think networking for introverts is an extremely, specifically important skill because it will give others the opportunity to get to know you, uh, for who you are and the value that you bring. And it will also help the introverted person realize that you don't have to be scared of everybody. People are just people. We just have our own tendencies and, um, things of that nature. Uh, Terrence, I I want to touch on quickly, uh, the topic of courage. Uh, in your book you have the three pillars of courage. Uh, and I I think it would be remiss for us to have this discussion about introverts and empowering introverts and, uh, without having a discussion about courage. Because I think in some ways people have a tendency towards introvert, introversion benefit from demonstrating courage, uh, more than most. And sometimes it can be hard to build that up. So where did that come from in your book? What sparked that particular section and and what are those three pillars of courage that you would want people to hear about?

Yeah, so that particular, uh, principle where we're talking about courage, it actually gets into decision making. Mm-hmm. , , um, and the courage to make difficult decisions as a leader. And, uh, that really came from the fact that when I found myself in that technical lead role that I spoke about earlier mm-hmm. , there were a lot of times where there was a very hard decision that had to be made, and sometimes it had to be made rather quickly. And so when you're in that situation, how do you have the courage to make that decision? You know, like a lot of people, uh, that's one of the things about being a leader is like making those tough decisions. Some people don't want to do that, you know, so how do you do that? And then as an introvert, where a lot of times, you know, we may want to take time to really think through a process and really, you know, we may, we may want to come back like the next day, right.

And answer the question , where I found myself in situations where it was like, all right, Terrence, we need an answer in like 15 minutes. Yeah. For some, you know, huge project that was going on. Right? So, some of the things that we get into is one of the things that, uh, a pillar we talk about is just asking the right questions. So making sure that you fully understand the situation and what's going on. A lot of times people will just kind of go off the fly or go off the cuff, or you'll hear, you'll hear people say things like, you know, go with your gut, right? Mm-hmm. like, you'll hear these phrases, but sometimes people don't take the time to just sit and really listen to what people are saying and fully digest the situation. So that's one of the pillars is like listening and just understanding the situation.

From there, it's making sure that you understand the stance and where everyone on your team kind of where they fall in the decision, right? So, for example, you may have a team of 10 people and you're listening to everybody and you're getting the different feedback and everything. It's very important that you understand kind of everyone's stance and you're really listening to what everyone is saying. Because sometimes people may have like one or two kind of go-to people that they'll listen to them and they might completely miss what some other people are saying, and their feedback is just as valuable, right? So it's very important to get all of those, just those different opinions, those different things, and weigh that into the decision you're gonna make. And then lastly, and this is, this is the big one, is to have the courage to make a decision, even if everyone won't agree with it.

Yeah. And that can be a very tough one. Um, specifically I'll say for some introverts, because a lot of us can tend to be what I'll call people pleasers, right? We don't want to upset certain people. We don't wanna, you know, uh, make certain people feel like we didn't listen or we didn't go with their thought, right? So having the courage to realize, hey, when you make this decision and your team is gonna go in this direction, everybody may not agree with it, but the fact that you've, you know, really taken the time, you've listened to people's thoughts, you understand the situation that really, really is gonna help you. Cuz people are at least gonna know that this person heard me out, they heard the situation, and they really tried to understand. So it takes a lot of courage to do that. Like, making decisions is not an easy thing, uh, especially when it's a hard decision. But, uh, that's what that, you know, principle's about. And those three pillars,

I, I 100% agree, especially with making decisions. And, and I I empathize for, you know, I empathize with our fellow introverts out there because I, I, for me at least, I think objectively or logically thinking, I understand that in a role of, in a leadership role, uh, or decision-making role for an introvert, what happens when you make a decision and you know there's going to be people who disagree? What are you almost always forced to do? Not not that you have to explain yourself, but at some point you're going to need to articulate that decision, right? Because decisions, even if you're the one making decision, there needs to be ongoing collaboration and communication, whether it's at that moment or the next day or the following week or the month later. These dis these, these conversations about decisions when they, when objections rise, when objections rise, that triggers a need for conversation, right?

And what does conversation do? Yeah. Especially if it's a conversation with someone who's not happy with you. It can be exhausting. Yep. It can naturally just be exhausting. And I think as in as introverts and as you as a, uh, as a listener, whether introvert or not, one thing it's important to understand and maybe for some people understand about themselves, is that we need to be fair and be honest with ourselves and recognize that if we're hesitating to make a decision, is it really because we don't know what the decision is? Or are we trying to protect ourself from not having to have that discussion? Uh, and I will say to our fellow introverts out there, don't short yourself make the call and be willing to step up and have that discussion. And then you can have a nap later and have some tea and take some quiet time to yourself.

Uh, it's not always easy, is it? Right Terrence? It, it's, it's not always easy. It's easy. It's not to do these things, but hey, whenever we're doing something that is important, it's often not going to be easy. Um, Terrence, last thing I'm gonna ask you is, is this, uh, what would you share, uh, what do you think is the top thing if you were to have a audience of 10,000 extroverts out there that all gathered to hear you explain to them what they need to know about, uh, introverts and so that they understand them a little better, maybe understand the thinking a little better. If you had 30 seconds to do it, what would you share?

Hmm, great question. Great question. I would say that introverts are not quiet. One of the things that I see a lot is that people that are more extroverted, I give the example of a room, right? So there's a room with 10 people in the room and in that room, none of those people are talking and laughing and exchanging ideas and exchanging information and all of this. And there's that one person in the room and everyone just kind of looks over them. Like everyone just sees them in the room, they're in the meeting or whatever the situation is, and they just assume that person has no value. They just assume, well, they're not talking, they don't have much to say. They don't have much input. And what I would say to any extroverts that are listening is to not overlook that person. That person may have the thought, they may have the idea, or they may have some perspective that can completely transform that room.

They may have the one idea that everyone needs to hear. So don't assume that your introverted coworker, friend, family member doesn't have value to add and don't assume that they're quiet. It just might be that they're thinking, it just might be that they have to be in the right situation, they feel comfortable to share their thoughts. It could be a lot of different factors, but what I would say is to not discount that person. Cause that person could be the person you really need to listen to. So, um, it's very important to not just assume that all introverts are quiet and don't add value.

Uh, I, I 100% agree that's a mistake that could be made. Uh, I, to be honest, to be fair, I think it's a mistake that is made far too often, and I've seen, I've seen it happen. Uh, I appreciate you sharing that because that helps everyone, right? You know, if, if, if regardless of the organization, business company, uh, government, private or otherwise, there are people in your organization that had a value. And if, and if big pieces of value being missed just because of a misconception, it does a dis disservice to everyone, uh, to the employee, to the person that's not being asked to the leader themselves, that's doing the overlooking, and then ultimately to the people that are being served, uh, by the organization or business. So it benefits everyone to make sure that we're intentionally, intentionally being inclusive and, uh, getting as much value from all the, the people and the resources that we have.

Terrence, from the bottom of my heart, I, I thank you so much for doing what you do for specifically for writing this book and providing a place in a resource for introverts to really unders help understand themselves better and understand themselves in the context, in the big picture of, of really taking a moment to recognize how much they have to offer, and also for helping those that aren't necessarily introverted to understand how much value that they may be missing from the people in their lives, uh, that aren't as loud as some of the others. Uh, it's important work. I I, there there are a few things that are more value to me than inclusion, regardless of the context. Um, just including everyone, uh, I, I think is one of the best things that all of us can do is to make, make sure that everyone is being included, everyone's being recognized, and everyone is being encouraged to be at their best.

And understand that regardless of who we are, we have some serious value to give and we need to be courageous enough to, to find out what that value is and keep exploring so we can give those gifts, uh, to the world. Uh, Terrence, I, I can't say enough. Um, how much I appreciate you and your time. Uh, to everyone listening, please make sure you go right now, not later. Well, if you're driving, go ahead and pull over , but go to quietvoicefearlessleader.com. Get that chapter of Terrence's book. As a matter of fact, hop on there. There's a link right there to go pick it up from Amazon. Get the full copy, yes, do grab that checklist off his website, grab that first chapter, but go ahead and hit Amazon and get the audiobook, get the paper back, get the Kindle, whichever is your preference. And take advantage of the value that this book has to bring, Terrence parting words, of wisdom from you to the audience that's listening here.

Yeah, well, you know, first of all, I just really appreciate you having me on. This has been awesome. Um, I guess I'll just leave with, you know, if you're listening to this, whether you're an introvert, an extrovert, uh, in between wherever you fall, uh, just realize that you are enough. You know, you don't have to be anything else. You don't have to be anyone else. Um, we can always grow, we can always work on skills and we can get better at things. But at your core, you're enough. You know, so don't feel like you have to be something that you're not, or you have to become something that you're not, you know, uh, you're amazing, you're awesome. It's just about growing to become what you want to be.

Terrence, thank you so much. I appreciate you for who you are and what you do in the world. And thank you the listener for hanging out with us. Please make sure you follow up with Terrence and thank him for spending this time with us today. I'm sure he'll appreciate that You did. Thank y'all so much. We will talk to you soon, Terrence. Talk to you soon, my friend.

All right, thank you. Appreciate it.

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