Hey there, listener! Thank you for checking out our older seasons! We're adding this note on the top of the show notes to keep you up-to-date with the show. Connect with Jen Amos and get bonus content when you subscribe to our private podcast show, Inside the Fort by US VetWealth, at http://insidethefort.com/

Last Updated: September 2, 2024

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018: “When people transition, everyone loses the family that they knew.” How to survive and thrive through military transition and beyond with Doc Springer

Dr. Shauna Springer is a licensed psychologist and nationally recognized expert on initiatives that benefit the military community. Known as “Doc Springer”, she is a trusted advisor for a vast network of veterans, military families and fellow thought leaders. Her uniquely perceptive insights have helped thousands of veterans and their partners thrive after military service and she has personally helped hundreds of warriors reconnect with their tribe, strengthen their relationships, and build lives driven by their values. Dr. Springer’s work has been featured on NPR, NBC, CBS Radio, Military Times and Marine Corps Times.

Connect with Doc Springer on Twitter @Doc_Springer or visit http://www.hiddenivy.com/

Beyond the Military is now available! Visit http://www.hiddenivy.com/beyond-the-military.html or https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Military-Leaders-Handbook-Reintegration/dp/1544505574/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=beyond+the+military&qid=1574181929&sr=8-1

Beyond the Military has been endorsed by the “most interesting man in the world.” Check out his video at https://youtu.be/IYJyYLYPUkY

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Resources mentioned throughout the show:

Tragedy Assistance Program for Survivors (TAPS) https://www.taps.org/

Children of Fallen Patriots https://www.fallenpatriots.org/

New podcast coming in January 2019: Seeking the Military Suicide Solution with Duane K. L. France, MA, MBA, LPC

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This episode is brought to you by USVetWealth.com, recently featured on MilitaryFamilies.com! Read now at https://militaryfamilies.com/military-veterans/us-vetwealth-founder-creates-order-out-of-chaos/

Connect with Jen Amos https://www.linkedin.com/in/jenamos/

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Subscribe to our newsletter: https://bit.ly/hdtf-newsletter

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Jen Amos 0:00

There's no need to wait on your service member to share a second hand information anymore. Welcome to holding down the fort, a podcast show where we put military spouses and children's needs front and center so that they can make informed decisions together as a family. Because let's face it, we know who's really holding down the fort. Let's get started.

Unknown Speaker 1:45

It's really good to be here.

Jen Amos 1:46

Yes, we're so happy to have you. I know you're already doing a lot of bantering offline. And so I thought I just need to get this started. Because there's already exciting information that

Unknown Speaker 1:55

we're talking all day. Yeah.

Jen Amos 1:57

As I can tell. But why don't we start with you sharing? How did you hear about the show? And more importantly, what inspired you to speak with us today?

Speaker 1 2:05

Yeah, so I heard about holding down the fort podcast, or Keith trippy, who is the host of got your six TV, I saw an interesting video the other day that he hosted with Colonel Walter heard from the Transition Assistance Program. And just was connected up with you through that. And the reason I wanted to come on to this show was because the work that I've done is really related to supporting military spouses and partners. I think that military spouses and partners absolutely make sacrifices of their own. And the transition from the military absolutely impacts the entire family system, it's a very high risk time for relationships, as we started to talk about, there are a lot of relationships that are super solid, and then transition really throws everything into a blender, and even very strong relationships can be challenged by military separation. So I really wanted to come on and talk about that and answer any questions and kind of just have a conversation about that work.

Jen Amos 3:08

And I think what you're doing is remarkable. I feel like the military couple, I feel like the issues are the least address I my husband is a veteran. And I remember he him saying that. There's like three things that each service member prioritizes I forgot the first two, I think the first one is probably obviously service. But family is usually like the least the lowest priority in terms of like when they're active duty. And so a lot of things get left neglected, and especially if a military spouse is a stay at home spouse, they have to deal with a lot of issues on their own and figuring things out. And I know we'll get more into some terms of what it's like to just feel like the other service member or the service member wasn't there for them or and everything, but they go through, they go through a lot of issues, a lot of challenges, and they get the least rewarded for it. I think

Speaker 1 4:02

something I've been thinking about lately is Is it harder to learn to cope independently? Because as you said, a lot of military partners really have to learn to cope really independently if their partners are focused on the mission or deployed, or is it harder for them as couples to cope? interdependently? And I think it depends on what you're used to. You know, I think a lot of people learn to cope independently, and then transition throws all those previous roles and responsibilities into the blender. And everything has to be negotiated. And that is challenging, even in the best of circumstances. So there's that level of I've done a lot of this on my own to also kind of setting up structures that have actually can work really well for military families that then need to get radically changed after transition.

Jen Amos 4:57

Yes, and we'll get into more of that later. later on in the interview, which I'm really excited about, because I feel like I know of people who after the military had ended up in divorce and just remarried. And but they were with that service member for 20 years. So it's just, I'm sure there's just that dark time, or there's that there's that transition, like you said, when everything gets blown, thrown in a blender, where it's like, we don't have like, we don't have the tools. Like we don't know how to work through this. I mean, there's a whole industry around transition for the service member like the taps program, but what about the relationship? What happens to that? Like, where are the resources for that? And so I think it's really exciting to hear what you're working on and everything. So yeah, really excited to get into it. But yeah, but before we do for people who don't know you yet, Doc Springer, why don't you share a snapshot of your life today? Or our audience, particularly what keeps you excited and busy nowadays?

Speaker 1 5:57

Yeah. So I went to go see Hamilton, for my husband's birthday this past weekend, kind of wanted to see what all the rave reviews are about. And there's this line in the play about Hamilton. That goes, Why do you write like you're running out of time, right, they ignite like you're running out of time. And at the intermission, my husband turns to me, and he said, that describes you pretty well. And I had to laugh, because he's totally right. I am always thinking, writing, trying to push my own understanding into the right direction, in terms of how I can support those that have, frankly, risked it all to protect us, and their families that serve right along with them. So this work comes from a place of a deeper calling for me, and an urgency to really have an impact for the servicemembers and their families. Because transition, as you said, Jen, it definitely affects everyone. And one of the things that I think people aren't so aware of, as much as they could be is that when people transition, everybody kind of loses the family that they knew. So in the military community, that family that existed for spouses was a network that gave life structure and social purpose. And so after transition, if you move out of that community and move off base, you're not only relocating, you're losing the network of relationships, as a military partner, spouse, as much as your service member does. So both people are going through this in parallel. And they need to be able to do this in a way that preserves their their trust that they have in that relationship, so that they can be safe and stable base for each other. They can be each other's anchor and really have each other's back as they go through an incredibly turbulent time stress. And so sometimes, like you said, we focus resources on the service member, and perhaps overlook the spouse or partner who's absolutely going through it with them.

Jen Amos 8:07

Can you share a little bit more about this deeper calling? What really inspired you to focus on military families in the military community specifically?

Speaker 1 8:17

Yeah, okay. My childhood was unconventional, even by California standards. And I think the best way to describe that has been to just sort of share that my father probably took the great Santini as a parenting manual. And my parents kind of raised us in a very military, like, weigh everything from early morning runs around the track when we were very young in the dark, running miles around the track, competing every year at the local track meets to different things that they did to really push us through what would have been anyone's natural anxieties at that age, have different challenges to get us through kind of fear, and included a lot of foreign travel from a very young age by myself, doing work in foreign countries. So I have this unconventional upbringing that made those who serve feel like home to me. And I didn't know if it was a feeling that was reciprocated, until I really got deeply into my time at the VA. I served the VA for eight years. I entered that period of eight years like an enlistment, it was my way to support those that serve. So as sort of two four year periods, I said, I'm going to stick it out no matter what. And I stayed eight years to the day from when I started. And so into that as I was learning from my patients and growing and better understanding the things that they often don't talk about, even in therapy settings. I came to understand that that feeling of comfort and trust was reciprocated, and somehow have gotten pulled into the military community in a way that's alive. I like the character that Robert Duvall played in The Godfather. Who was he's not he's not blood, he's not blood family. But he was a trusted consigliere very to the family, a trusted adviser. And so that's the space that I often find myself in within the community. And it's both just such an a personal honor and a privilege and a sacred trust that I hold with that work. So yeah, I guess it comes from my background, but it's really been a good fit for me. And it's hard for me to imagine ever letting go of doing at least some part of my life, serving those who who serve us in this way.

Yeah, I like how you say it feels like home. Because very often, even before I started this podcast, I was thinking to myself, like, how do I speak to military spouses if I wasn't an active duty military spouse myself, like I met my husband after his service. However, I the way that being involved in the community now is that I was a military child, I unfortunately, had lost my dad when I was young, while he was an active duty. And I was able to see a watch vicariously through my mom and her experiences as a military spouse, and someone who might, you know, my background, my, my family is very traditionally there, they're all about the family, the family comes first and you make sacrifices, and you adapt no matter what. And so even if I had my dad had the opportunity to retire, I'm sure he, my mom and dad would still be together today. But yeah, it was just kind of like that, understanding that we're going to figure this out. And we're going to do it anyway. And that's that. And so it was, it was really just like watching my, my mom and my dad, just make it work. Also my life today, like in most of my adult life, I had struggled to hold onto a job or like, stick with something long enough. And I think it had a lot to do with my like being deployed every two to three years, or moving around every two, three years as my dad got deployed. And so today, like my heart, like, to me, it does feel like home to help military spouses and military families, just because they are really the silent warriors. And I was really young at the time when I lost my dad, and I didn't know how to communicate the struggles I went through after I lost my dad, like I didn't know how to cope with it. I think it was really in my later 20s where I was like, okay, that's why I'm so like, non committal, or that's why I like to do many projects at once has a lot to do with my upbringing. And I feel just like what you said, I feel at home with the community today, the military community, because it hasn't really changed, you know, like, people are still moving around people, people are transitioning out every single day. And even to this day, military families are really the silent warriors. And so it's just great to see all these organizations and people such as yourself, that really want to serve the community and help help out. It's a beautiful thing.

Yeah, so you are your military family member. So you have that cultural backdrop in terms of how you were raised. And that's certainly a part of it. But for myself, not having come directly from a military family or having served, the only thing I can kind of make out in this equation is that people who serve have a very good instinct, to know if it's a job, or it's a calling, if you really care if you have ever suffered and sacrificed maybe in different ways. But if you've ever sort of pushed through your natural fears and boundaries, at times to do what's good for the mission, they pick up on that. And I think it's that whether you're a military service member directly, or somebody maybe from a different walk of life, that maybe helps unite those who are kind of sharing this common purpose. I don't know, it's a theory right now for me, because otherwise, I don't understand how there's this comfort level that I have sometimes with the Warriors I serve, having come from quite a different background, but but really very much caring about and feeling a mutual respect in that relationship with them.

Yeah, I mean, like, had I not known that you were not affiliated with the military community? Anyway, I know that was a lot of negatives. But I would, I wouldn't have noticed I wouldn't have noticed because I feel like you just really understand the community. You really empathize with the community. And I think it's just a testament to what you do in your profession and in your work drinks. Hey, everyone, Jen emos here just taking a quick break from the interview to talk to you about our main sponsor for holding down the fort. Just this last September of 2019. US vet wealth, and my husband Scott are Tucker has been featured on military families.com. I just want to read the first part of it to give you an idea of what we're about and what we represent. So this article is actually written about the founder which is My husband, the founder of us bet wealth has an approach to veteran employment that looks like jeans and flip flops. Among a crowd of suits. Scott had found that is what allows veterans to embark on a successful path to civilian retirement. Retired Army Major Scott Tucker, also West Point grad, spent upwards of seven years after his military career, learning the finance industry, listening to veterans woes, and being told there's only one mold, one path for the veteran workforce. Through that he learned the one thing everyone was missing. There's another way Scott gets quoted, if you have a mission to serve, whether that's individually or meaning a transitioning service member or spouse wants to go and create their own mission. That is what us that wealth is about is by helping our military families and service members live a life of intention. Through us vet wealth, Scott and his team, myself included mentor veterans, and military spouses who don't want to be a defense consultant, or play by a corporation's roles. US bet wealth is for people that want total control of what they do, and how they go on about it. If that sounds like you, check out us bet wealth.com To learn more about us. Alright, let's get back into the interview.

Yeah, absolutely. I have to put in a put in a word here for taps, which is tragedy assistance program for survivors, because you mentioned you lost your dad. And in that context, I would want your listeners to know, that taps tragedy assistance program for survivors, which has been around 25 years almost to the day, earlier this week was the 25th anniversary is an organization that leads the field in terms of supporting military family members who have lost a military loved one, I just got back from a week spent with around 700 to 800. Military Family survivors. And we have a whole program for wives for kids for parents who have lost military loved one. And for the little kids, we paired them up with a military mentor, who's an active duty military service member, or veteran and they get one on one peer grief mentoring with this military mentor. Over the course of this camp we call good grief camp. That is powerful healing for our military kids. And for their parents, you know that programming as well as just transformative. So I would just want people to know about tabs, I try to talk about tabs everywhere I go. Because I find it so heartbreaking when people don't know about the organization that can really change everything about how they're processing the grief and loss.

I appreciate you sharing that. I think I just think it's so beautiful how there are so many resources like that i There's a part of me, maybe this is just a mental block of mine, because there's a part of me that thinks that Oh, that was almost that was over 20 years ago when I lost my dad. And so does that stuff still apply to me? And I do want to say that there's this local nonprofit in Virginia, that actually what do you call it? They provide scholarships to military children to Goldstar children, you know, who lost their parents in active duty? Who, yeah, who actually provide scholarships for school. And I remember emailing them and I said, Oh, I graduated high school a long time ago. And also my dad, I lost about 20 years ago. And it was really beautiful. They replied saying, Well, why don't we talk about it? Maybe we can reimburse you for those college expenses. And I was like, wow. And so yeah. And so it's it's beautiful. And it's really only the recent years that I really started to learn about these resources. And so I feel like the more I do these interviews and connect more with the community and everything, I think the more comfortable I will feel a seeking out those resources. But that was a really kind thing for that nonprofit to say that and I wish I could have. I'm going to look them up later and probably add this after the edits. But I definitely want to give a shout out to them for saying saying that to me and realizing that there are still resources available for someone in my position. Hey, everyone, John Amos here, just wanted to do a quick plug out to the children of fallen patriots Foundation, which is the nonprofit that I was referring to at the time of this recording. So just a little bit about them. Their mission is to provide college scholarships and educational counseling to military children who have lost a parent in line of duty. The vision for children of fallen patriots Foundation is to ensure that every such child receives all necessary college funding and they are dedicated to serving the families of combat casualties and military training accidents as well as other duty related deaths. So Just want to give a shout out to children of fallen patriots foundation. Once again, thank you so much for our continual engagement. And if you want to learn more about them just visit fallen patriots.org. I'll also have that in the show notes for you. That's fallen patriots.org. Okay, let's get back into the show.

Yeah, and you know, grief really is losing someone we love is a lifelong journey doesn't mean, we're always going to be in deep grief. But I think just from speaking with you, some of what you're doing with your life is about the work of post traumatic growth. And using the platform that you do have and the connection that you do have with military partners and spouses to honor something that dad would have been really proud of. And that's part of grief and growing, is finding meaningful ways to, to bring the best of what we have to people we care about. So I would suspect it probably does link up but you can kind of be the judge of that.

Oh, wow. Well, thank you, Doc Springer. So post traumatic growth. I'm gonna look more into that. You I think you read me really well, because I, I've learned early on, I think, years ago, someone told me you turn your pain into your passion. And so a lot of my life has been about serving people that remind me of the in the younger girl that I was that didn't have the resources and so, so that's really cool. Thank you for sharing that.

Yep. Yeah, that's post traumatic growth. Wow.

Okay, yes, I have post traumatic growth. I'm gonna like, read more into that later. Awesome. I love it. I love it. Well, I'm excited because I, we get to get into our educational topic for our show today. So really, the purpose of holding down the fort is to provide or create awareness of the current resources and education available to military families. And although there are a lot of resources out there, sometimes it's better to hear it from people straight from our community, or people serving our community. And so in this case, Doc Springer, I want to read a little bit about what you had mentioned in your questionnaire, because I think it written out itself was pretty impactful. So you wanted to mention today that military transition is an intensely stressful time in the lives of our servicemembers and their families, leaving the military can be a high stakes time for even the most solid, well established relationships. And so the transition can create a special vulnerability for what is called the attachment wounds. So doc Springer, I'd love for you to elaborate on that and explain what attachment wounds is, I feel like once people hear the definition, they could definitely relate to it.

Yeah, sure. So there are just a few questions that determine how healthy our closest relationship is. And the questions are about attachment and about trust. It's questions like, Do you really love me? Is it safe for me to ask you what I need? And can I depend on you when, when I really need you. So those three questions together, hard to think of a relationship conflict or problem that doesn't trace back to one of those three questions being shaky. So in terms of attachments, it should function as a secure attachment is like a stable base of operations. Just like in military sort of deployments, you have your your base and everything goes out from the base, you want to create a stable base in your relationship, well, when your whole life is suddenly altered. And as we kind of insane thrown into a blender, then there's a high vulnerability that a couple have attachment wounds. And the attachment wound concept is basically described by this feeling. I really needed you, I was broken down. And I really needed you to be with me to walk with me to have my back. And I didn't feel like you had my back. Or you were not there for me when I was at my weakest and really needed you. And so when both partners in the couple, as we were talking about are going through all of this change and stress and transition shifts in their roles and probably new jobs and new relocation. They both are vulnerable to feeling like the other one is not really there for them. And yet, there's an opposite concept, which we don't even have a word for. So I've given it a name and kind of the work that I've done in this space. So if the concept of attachment wounds is this feeling of I really needed you and you were not there for me, the opposite can also be true. And I've absolutely seen this in the relationships that I've worked with. So the opposite is what I call attachment gifts. Now an attachment gift is described by the feeling I was broken down. And you were there for me. And you had my back. And I know that because we navigated this really intensely challenging time together, that nothing can break us down now that we're a stronger, a better team. And I don't doubt your full commitment to me, and that you and I are really together, whatever may come. So, with the right insights and the right support, couples can be aware, they're sort of situationally aware of where they might be vulnerable to attachment wounds. And they can instead learn to give each other stability and attachment gifts. And when they can move in that direction, then that's what I call the evolution of battle tested relationships, the people that evolve into a stronger, closer team, because they have been very intentional about this process. And that's my goal is to really give people the right insights and the right information, so that they can not only survive, but thrive through military transition and beyond in their closest relationships.

Wow, that's incredible. So let's talk about how that would look like in practice.

Well, I'll tell you a story if you want. Because, I mean, I've seen this over and over clinically, one of the stories that that really stands out to me is I'm going to give him a fake name, you know, preserve his privacy. But let's call him Vincent. So Vincent was coming out of the army. And he was discharging honorable discharge, headed home, everybody's excited. And he meets with a cold wall from his wife. And he comes back very confused, because she has always been his rock. So when you hear somebody say, This person is my rock, that basically to me in attachment terms, is they are my secure attachment. Right? They are my stable base, or my anchoring person, like you are to your dog, you know, that is my person. So when he was getting sort of this coldness from her, it threw him into a spiral of very deep distress. Because she had been the person that basically he thought about all the time when he was deployed, and he couldn't get through to her. And I remember him saying to me, one very memorable session, it feels like I am holding my arms out to her. And she's cutting them both off and just letting me bleed out. And she's walking away. Wow. Yeah. And so the situation was kind of spiraling in a really sort of dangerous and negative way. And I told him, You, you have got to take a risk with her, and tell her and be vulnerable, and take off your armor with her and tell her you love her need her. And you don't know what has happened. But whatever it is, if she will take a risk and tell you why she's responding to you in this way, as though you're dead to her kind of way that you will do whatever you can to heal that relationship. And he looked at me and said, Doc, I would rather walk into an ambush a firefight than tell my wife how much I love her. And I need her right now. Wow, said yeah, I understand that. And that's where, like, it really set in for me that the kind of courage it takes to do this in our closest relationships. It calls for different kinds of courage than the kind of courage that we need for a physical firefight. And still, he needed to do it. He needed to take off his armor with his wife. So he finally got to a place where some of the code chew through this. And we talked very specifically about his angle of approach and how he's going to be gentle. We probably wrote it down a couple of times, and practiced. And then he went, and he did it. And she said, she broke down crying, first of all, and she said, I found a letter that told me that when you deployed, you were not forced to go back, you volunteered to go back, and I was pregnant with our second child. And I felt like you abandoned me and our kids in my moment of need. So that was the original attachment wound right to go back to that the attachment wounds he had chosen to go deploy, rather than being there for her when she was very vulnerable, having just had their newborn baby. And so that is why she was then wounding him. And so the attachment wound that she was an acting on him was this stonewalling and this treating him like you're dead to me, was throwing him into a primal panic. And so they both broke down. And they, they took off their armor with each other. And it was just really beautiful. They came back and he was just different and better and things were good again. So I guess one of the things I learned was that it's a different kind of courage that's required. And then even if things are really bad, and they feel really hopeless, sometimes if we can get to the root of it, things can get restored and repaired, and get on a much better track pretty quickly, once people take off their armor with each other, if that makes sense.

Yeah, absolutely. And I know you had mentioned in our prior questionnaire that the reason why it's hard to remove that armor is because oftentimes, it's motivated by a protective instinct, and they don't want to actually burden the other partner with their issues. And I think that's so interesting. I

even think about that with my, with my husband, and sometimes I do the whole Stonewall thing with him. And I realized that I have to just tell him how I really feel in the heat of the moment, it's so hard to communicate. I think, for me, I just think like, can't he just like, break down my walls for me, and like, you know, like, figure it out for me. But fortunately, our communication has improved throughout the years, where eventually I am able to open up again and say, hey, the reason why I was acting that way is because you know, and really talk about it. But it takes a lot of pride and a lot of vulnerability. And I think the the fear for most people is maybe losing the partner thinking like, Wow, if I really tell them how I really feel, maybe they won't love me anymore.

I think that's part of it, as well. But yeah, I totally understand everything you're saying. And I imagine, for our listeners that are going through transition right now, hopefully this is resonating with you as well,

yeah, that'll all be in the book Beyond the military, the different reasons why we do not take our armor off with each other, we're resistant to taking your armor off each other Brene, Brown has done some really great work kind of establishing why vulnerability is so important in close relationships. And in the book, I extend this by talking about it from a military framework. So for example, as you were saying, the common tendency that I saw all the time with couples was for the military service member to say, I don't want to burden my partner, I don't want him or her to think of the same images that I have in my mind, or to have like a visual image a representation of the things that haunt me all the time. And military spouses also, because they're socialized, often to protect a service member. So it's kind of like the thinking around a distracted operators a dead operator. Well, military families and spouses are socialized, to not distract to just handle it on your own, to not burden to Don't, don't bring it up, don't don't weigh them down, don't increase their burden. So much that this absolutely happens in both directions. And as you said, it's really hard. It takes so much courage to get to a place where you can say directly what you need and want from your partner. But that is also the hallmark of secure attachment. And so one of the things that I talked about in the book is how you can talk about your experiences, let's say it was a trauma experience while you were deployed. But you don't have to share details. You can say, I'm struggling with a feeling of guilt right now that's eating me alive. I had to make choices to protect the men and women that I served with that no one should have to make. And right now, I just need you to hold me and tell me that I'm a good person, or whatever it is. So it's needed. Like there's nothing in there about details of specific trauma images that you saw, or even things that you did, but you've communicated the heart of where you're suffering. And I think the realization here, which is something I really expound on in the book is that when people try to protect their partners by not burdening them, or holding back on what they share, it actually really greatly increases anxiety in their partner. So when we know that our loved one is suffering, but we don't really know what the nature of their suffering is, or what's causing it or really anything about it, than our, our suffering, our anxiety goes off the chart. Whereas if we can learn to take off our armor and in these safe ways, using safe methods that I outlined, we can share with each other. What's going on On even just the nature of it, that our loved ones can come in and support, and we can get through, get through that suffering faster.

I really liked that approach because I feel like a lot of us have to, or feel compelled to sharing all the details before we really get to the root cause where you're teaching people how to just communicate what the root causes are, what the that feeling is that they're really struggling with. And just saying, can you just can you just hold me and tell me I'm okay. And I'm doing all right with doing right with things. And I really liked that. I think that's something that I'm going to apply in my life. Because I always feel even for myself, I always felt compelled to explain giving a narrative of my situation sometimes, but the time for people that I may not feel comfortable sharing all the details with, I like that as an exercise to share with people. Yeah, yeah. Thanks. So speaking of your book, if we haven't hinted at it already. So doc Springer, you have a book coming out this year, is that correct?

I do. It's coming out in about three weeks on November 11. Veterans Day, actually,

I believe by the time this episode is out, the book will be available. And so I'm sure that I'd love to get that link from you, Doc Springer in which we can share with our audience once this episode is up live. But as you had mentioned, this book is titled beyond the military, a leaders handbook for warrior reintegration. And I know you had already mentioned some of the tools and the things that are going to be mentioned in the book. When did you I think my question is like, when did you decide to put together a book like this? Like, was there a particular maybe experience you went through? Were like, Okay, I just have to do this. Now. I have to get this book done. Yeah,

yeah. So actually, my co author, Jason, Ron Caroni, who's a former battalion commander, in the army, sent me a manuscript that was close to 300 pages, if not more, that he had spent a year of his life writing. And I read this as just a friend of his and kind of a trusted early reviewer. And I said, Jason, this is brilliant. What he does so well is really use his own experience of transitioning out of the military twice, and his own expertise as somebody who really understands military transition, to really focus on the identity crisis, that is central to transition for so many service members. So it's basically he was looking at the identity crisis and identity reintegration cultural assimilation piece that we don't, I think, focus enough attention on it was so different in such a exciting manuscript to me that I actually said, I love this, would you consider letting me write as your second author 80 to 100 pages on relationships, because I think that's a piece that if we could hit that, then we would have something that would be a totally integrative program of transition that looks at the psychological and the relationship parts of transition, that are critical, and that nobody's focused on in this way or at this depth. And so I sent him some stuff, I did about 10 years of really deep dive research on close relationships, before I even started working with the military and veteran population. And then I was, I was in charge of something called the relationship therapy seminar series at the VA where I used to work. And every month, I would have a different topic. And I would share on a number of different topics that are about close relationships. So for example, you know how to have a good fight was one of them. And groups were hard to fill at the VA, even groups that you would think would be just a total spot on what people need kind of group. But this group had sometimes 30 people show up. And so yeah, because of that, it just was something that I had done and then tabled while I was focused on other things. But I knew it was an area of deep need, that I could do in a much more wide scale way. And so that's the story is it really was started by Jason and using his own experience and investing a year of his life, to write this book, and then bringing me on as a second to share the arc of my career around military relationships, to really bring forward this integrative program that we developed.

Well shout out to Jason, your co author.

Yeah, he's great. Yeah,

no, that's, that's absolutely awesome. And I've been told that you have been endorsed your book has been endorsed by the most interesting man in the world.

Tell me about it. Yeah. So so he wanted to do something this the world's most interesting man, who we all might remember From the docentes commercials, he's apparently the most mean to person in all of history. And when I used to do seminars for military couples, on one of my slides, there was a meme that he didn't even know about. And it said, I do not always run away. But when I do, I make a tactical retreat. And I thought that was so great. And so it pairs with this particular relationship skill, called a tactical withdrawal, that is part of how to have a good fight. And so I was put in touch with him by somebody that is in my network, who was supportive of of this. And he was lo and behold, willing to turn that meme into a little short video, in support of that relationship skill part that is just a part of the book. So when he's talking about tactical retreat, he's not talking about transition from the military as a whole. We're talking about a specific skill among many that I share in the latter half of the book. But yeah, it was really fun. He sent me that video. And that was just a really fun way of feeling supported when bringing this forward.

Awesome. And I have the pleasure of playing that audio clip for you all here. And if you do want to see the video, I'll also have that in our show notes. So all right, so we went second, I'm going to I'm going to play the audio for you,

my friends, I do not always run away. But when I do, I make a tactical retreat. Tactical withdrawals can be good for one's relationships. That's what the interesting people do. So my friends, stay interesting. Always good luck and yours.

Cool. Well, there you have it, the most interesting man in the world, seeing a meme come alive.

Yeah, yeah. I know, that was a bit of a drawn out intro to to that little video. But it is important to me that people know that statement about tactical retreat is not about how we see people discharged from the military. It's really about that relationship skill building piece.

Yes, absolutely. I love it. I love it. Well, Doc Springer, I just feel like we had such an incredible conversation today, just about your profession and the amazing work you're doing for military and transition, as well as your book. Do you have any any closing thoughts for us as particularly those that are going through transition right now anything you want to say to them?

Well, I think the main thing that I would say is that transition is a military transition is one of many transitions in life. It's a particularly challenging one. But there will be other transitions in life, whether it's changing your career, or bringing children into your family. Those are huge shifts in everything that was before. It's a defining moment kind of thing. And it is possible, it's very possible. I've seen it happen, that when people have a roadmap, and they know what to expect, and they can kind of plan for the challenges that come, they can not only survive it, but they can thrive through a transition in terms of their sense of self, their sense of meaning and purpose, and their close relationships. And so the book that we wrote beyond the military is really is designed to be available for people in the year before they transition out of the military in a perfect world. But I also know a lot of veterans and their partners that are feeling stuck and sort of still in limbo around transition or relationship issues that have shifted, and the book is also for them. And so when Jason and I were asked, How do we price this, did some research and people said, Well, guys, it's like nearly 400 pages, it's years of therapy and coaching all into one package, you should sell this as a program for like 150 $200. And we thought about that and ultimately decided, no, are deeper why our deeper purpose is to get this out to the greatest number of people for the greatest impact. So when it goes on Amazon, on Veterans Day, it's going to be available for $30 A month or the whole 400 Page Program because I want military service members and Jason does too. And their partners and their families and companies to be able to buy this in bulk to get this out, so that we can really change how we support servicemembers and their families in transition. So thank you for having me on today. It's been really fun talking to Jen.

Yeah, it's my absolute pleasure. And as I've already mentioned, I just appreciate all of the knowledge and tips that you've shared on our show today and also teaching me about poster medic growth. That's new for me. And I just want to thank you so much for everything that you're doing for active duty servicemembers, for those about to go through transition, those that are transitioning, and really just the military community as a whole. For people that would like to get a hold of you, Doc Springer, how could they do that? How could they find you?

Well, I'm being told by lots of people that I need to get more proficient Twitter. So in line with that, please join me and my 10 followers, if people could connect with me on Twitter, I'm actually going to be using that as a way to share out about when the book comes out. So putting an announcement on there, and so probably kind of directed that way, because that's an area of growth for me. So if people could connect with me on Twitter, that would be ideal. Also, in January, I'm going to be co hosting a podcast. That will be a weekly podcast, through military times with my co host, Dwayne France, who does a really excellent podcast called Headspace and timing. And we are going to do a year long weekly podcast called seeking the military suicide solution that is planned to kick off in January. And what we want to do is bring on guests that have actionable ideas that have impact, to move us from awareness of the tragedy of suicide into action, and really doing things that can change that, beyond the military is not a suicide prevention book, specifically, but it is an upstream book to help leaders become leaders in society, and to really help leaders fulfill their full potential, which is to me about what our leaders deserve, and about the quality of life that we can support them to have after the military.

And for our listeners, if you didn't catch any of that, don't worry, I will have all of that information provided in the show notes. Doc Springer. It's been an absolute pleasure having you on our show. Thank you again for joining us.

Thank you for having me. It was really fun to talk to you. Yes. And to our listeners.

We hope that you had gained a lot of insight and education from this episode today. Thank you so much for listening, and we look forward to seeing you in the next episode. Tune in next time.

Goodbye. Thank you.