Frontline Innovators: Transforming Defense Technology with AFWERX and Second Front Systems | The Pair Program Ep43

In this enlightening episode, we explore the groundbreaking work of Second Front Systems and AFWERX – both organizations that are driving technological advancements for our nation's warfighters. Join our guests, Donald 'Chee' Gansberg and Enrique Oti, as they share their remarkable journeys and insights at the intersection of software innovation and national security.

Chee, a former special operations forward air controller turned software evangelist at AFWERX, and Enrique, Chief Strategy Officer at Second Front Systems and retired Air Force Colonel, provide unparalleled perspectives on government tech modernization and the challenges of navigating the federal acquisition process. They delve into the mission of AFWERX to foster internal innovation within the Air Force and Second Front

Systems' quest to bridge the gap between cutting-edge technology and government utilization.

From overcoming bureaucratic barriers to building trust with the government, this episode offers invaluable insights for

anyone passionate about defense tech innovation and the transformative power of collaboration between startups and government agencies. Tune in to discover how these visionary leaders are reshaping the future of defense technology.

About Donald ‘Chee’ Gansberger:

Chee Gansberger was a computer programmer in the IndyCar series and the Silicon Valley who decided one day in September, 2001, that he'd rather jump out of airplanes and blow things up. After years as a special operations forward air controller including numerous deployments as a front-line operator, he ended up first in traditional acquisitions and then in the innovation scene. After helping usher in modern software reform while part of DIUx he then moved to AFWERX, as a software evangelist trying to bring innovative use of software to the warfighter.

About Enrique Oti:

Enrique Oti is the Chief Strategy Officer of Second Front Systems (2F), where he fast-tracks government access to disruptive, commercially-proven software-as-a-service (SaaS) applications for national security missions. Prior to joining 2F, Enrique had a 23-year career in the United States Air Force, during which he served in multiple assignments as a cyber warfare officer and China Foreign Area Officer. Enrique commanded an intelligence support squadron in Korea, and was a co-founder of the Defense Innovation Unit in Silicon Valley. He co-founded the Kessel Run software development program, and in his final assignment served as the Kessel Run commander, retiring as a Colonel. Enrique earned a BS in History from the U.S. Air Force Academy, an MS in Strategic Intelligence from the Joint Military Intelligence College, and an MA in International Relations from Zhejiang University in China, where he studied as an Olmsted Scholar.

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Welcome to The Pair Program from hatchpad, the podcast that gives you

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a front row seat to candid conversations

with tech leaders from the startup world.

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I'm your host, Tim Winkler,

the creator of hatchpad.

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And I'm your other host, Mike Gruen.

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Join us each episode as we bring

together two guests to dissect topics

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at the intersection of technology,

startups, and career growth.

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So we are back, uh, to The Pair Program.

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Uh, Tim Winkler here with Mike Gruen.

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Mike?

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Mike?

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We are celebrating two years, my

friend, uh, of running the pod.

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Pretty, pretty long drill.

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I didn't think we would make it past

month one or two, but here we are.

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So I wanted to ask you, you know, what's

been like your, your, your most satisfying

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part of, of being a part of the podcast

or what, what's been your favorite part?

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Mike Gruen: I mean, my favorite

part is just meeting people.

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Uh, I like networking.

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I like hearing what's

going on in the world.

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Um, especially in the world

of tech and stuff like that.

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So just the connections I've made.

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Um, it's been a great.

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Opportunity for that and a

great opportunity just to hear

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other people's perspectives.

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I've learned a lot.

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Um, and what's funny is I find

that I, uh, I tend to just

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listen for a lot of the podcasts.

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People probably notice, like, I

don't try not to talk too much,

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uh, and let our guests talk.

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So yeah, it's been great.

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It's been a great opportunity.

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I appreciate you including me.

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Tim Winkler: Oh, yeah.

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No worries.

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We'll send you a, the

invoice here shortly.

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Um, I, I'd say like a, that's definitely

part of it, but I, um, I also enjoy just

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like from the pairings perspective, you

get like good recommendations or like

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ideas of like, Oh, I never thought about

mixing, you know, a mezcal Manhattan

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together or something like that.

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It's like a, it's a, it's a lot of

alcohol wrecks come through guys,

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just a heads up on their parents,

usually good alcohol, good food wrecks.

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But, uh, I've enjoyed that.

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And then obviously I get into getting

to know some interesting people.

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Um, but, uh, yeah, we'll, we'll,

we'll kick things off here, uh,

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uh, for, uh, today's episode.

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So we're going to be continuing

this theme of tech modernization

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within the government space.

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And specifically for this episode, like

we're software innovation intersects

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with defense, um, and, and taking

full advantage of, of our pair program

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format, where we have two guests in

every episode, we're going to dissect

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this, uh, a specific use case where.

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You know, a, uh, a software company,

second front systems is collaborating with

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aff works, um, you know, an innovation

arm of the United States air force.

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Uh, so our first guest is, uh, Enrique,

um, OT, uh, CTO, second front systems.

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So Enrique brings a rich background

of dual use tech, uh, development,

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uh, 23 year U S air force career.

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Um, Founding, uh, Kessel run program

and co founding a defense innovation

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unit to pioneering accelerated access

to emerging technologies and cyber and

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beyond for a lot of national security

missions, um, uh, a heck of a resume.

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Thanks for, for joining with us, Enrique.

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Enrique Oti: No, and

thanks for the invite.

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Really love getting on

here, talking to you guys.

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And anytime I get a chance to talk

to Chi again, it's always fun.

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So

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Tim Winkler: for sure, for sure.

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And, and so on that, yeah, we,

uh, alongside Enrique, we're,

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we're joined by Donald Chi, uh,

Gansberger, uh, known as Chi.

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Uh, so he's the software director

at AFWERX, uh, master sergeant with

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over two decades in the Air Force.

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Uh, Chi is dedicated to elevating

airmen's innovative ideas into actual

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solutions, uh, for the Air Force.

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And a few other fun facts I dug up on

you, Chi, that you're passionate about

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open wheel racing, brewing, and cooking.

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So you're, you're, you're my kind

of, my kind of guest on here.

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Uh, we'll definitely have some interesting

add on questions here to, to, to close

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with the five second scramble segment,

but appreciate you joining us as well.

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That's cool.

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All right.

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Well, now, uh, before we, we,

uh, dive into the heart of the

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discussion, we always kick things

off with our pair me up segment.

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Mike, why don't you lead us off, my

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Mike Gruen: man?

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Yeah, definitely.

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Uh, not a food one or, or alcohol, sadly.

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Um, but in any event, uh, earlier this

week I had the opportunity through a

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community that I'm part of called techy

to lead a discussion around trust.

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And my pairing is related to that,

which is there's these like two

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concepts or two aspects of trust.

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Um, Confidence like that, the

people around you can do their job.

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They're going to play their position.

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They're going to get stuff done.

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They're reliable.

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And so on and so forth.

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And then this other aspect of, uh, trust,

which is really around safety that you

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feel comfortable making mistakes that

you feel like you're supported by your

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team and, and how those two things go

together and balance each other out and

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can create a lot of trust and how you

get a really great team out of that.

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Um, so it was really interesting to

have a whole discussion around that

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and how you can, you can sort of have

one of those and not the other, like.

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A baseball team might not have that sort

of psychological, emotional trust, but

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they all know that they're all playing the

right positions and so on and so forth.

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But when you can get both of those

things, just how, how awesome that

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can be and how powerful it is, um,

especially like an engineering team.

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So, yeah, so that's my parent.

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Yeah,

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Tim Winkler: well said, um,

you've been getting deep lately.

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Um, I, I, I, I, I'll, uh, I'll, I'll

lighten, uh, lighten it up a little

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bit, uh, with, with my pairing.

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Um, so I'm going to, you know,

the weather's kind of changing and

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springs upon us, it's heating up.

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Um, you know, a lot of folks are out

there kind of cleaning up the golf

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clubs, gearing up for the season.

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So I'm going to, um, I'm going

to go with a sports pairing,

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um, a golfer and their caddy.

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So I think it's an

interesting combination.

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It's a duo where.

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You kind of have, you know,

strategy, meat, meat, skill.

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Um, so, you know, the golfer swings,

the others kind of like strategizing,

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but together they come up with like

this, this really unique game plan too.

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Attack the course.

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Um, and I think it's, it's a really

interesting partnership in sports.

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So I'm going with a sports pairing

with a golfer and, uh, and the caddy.

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So pretty cool.

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Yeah.

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Um, let's pass it over

to, uh, to the guest.

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Uh, let's, let's start with

you, uh, Enrique, a quick,

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quick intro in your pairing.

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Enrique Oti: Uh, Hey, yeah.

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Uh, Enrique Oti.

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Uh, so on a pairing, you want me to

actually be deep and philosophical and

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come up with a paired concept right now?

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Tim Winkler: Yeah, it doesn't

have to be deep or philosophical.

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You could legit go with,

yeah, butter and bananas.

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Enrique Oti: Basically, I have

a private little urge here

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that is really embarrassing.

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Whenever I travel, I actually

like listening to things

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like the voice and X factor.

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Which is ridiculous, but it's like

the most mind numbing things you like

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to watch those, but something that

actually came out of that as I listen,

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it's like, there's a massive overlap

with concepts of risk and inspiration.

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So you look at these people, these

like radical amateurs that just like

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jump up on stage and, and seeing like,

you may never hear these people again.

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But they did one thing

at one moment in time.

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And for three minutes, they did something.

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You're like, Oh my God,

that's fricking amazing.

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And these things have like 10, 20,

30 million views of this, like three

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men in one person's life that is

probably going to live on forever.

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And you look at it going like,

you know, if you really want to

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be inspirational, you have to take

risks and like, it's incredible.

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It can come out of that.

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I realize that's stupid, but for some

reason it's been in my mind now for

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like weeks as I travel, I'm like, like.

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Who's this crazy, like 15 year

old kid who just like sing their

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heart out for three minutes.

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I'm like, that's pretty damn cool.

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So it's kind of inspiring.

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So there you go.

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Tim Winkler: I dig that.

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I, uh, I'll give you a chair turn

for that, for that, uh, pairing.

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That was good.

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That was good.

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Um, are you, so you're

watching this season?

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I, I.

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I dabble every once in a

while, but again, it's good.

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That's like mindless.

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Kind of like have it in the background.

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I have

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Enrique Oti: no idea what

the seasons even are.

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I just click the voice on YouTube and see

what kind of goes down that rabbit hole.

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So I'm like, we're Bulgarian

or something rather.

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Tim Winkler: Well played.

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Good stuff.

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Uh, Chi, uh, quick intro and,

and, uh, and your pairing.

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Chee Gansberg: Uh, Chi Berger.

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Uh, I'm a, uh, uh, eclectic, um, . I've

definitely had a, an interesting

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career that's probably to this point.

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Uh, don't, don't need to go into detail

on that, but, um, my pairs probably, I,

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I, I keep noticing at every different,

whether it's office I'm in or, or program

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I'm working on, it seems like there's,

uh, there's false dichotomies all over

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the place where everybody is getting.

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Uh, pulled into like one

extreme or another, uh, and

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even inter organizational.

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And, uh, it's funny cause Mike's,

uh, pairing, I think kind of plays

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well into it in that there's a, uh,

a disconnect between, uh, how people

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think of, of, uh, their focus or

their goals, um, relative to what

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everybody else around them is doing.

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And I'm watching it now where, whether

it's politics, uh, and I don't mean like

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Like national politics, it should be like

office politics or whether it be like when

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I was an operator between the strategic

side, the tactical side or acquisitions.

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And you get into the, you know, um, the

money side versus the requirement side.

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And it's these people, they've got

their own tribe and their own mentality.

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And, and.

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Getting that mentality to kind of shift

views has been really, really difficult.

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Um, if anything, like when I met Enrique

and we were at DIU, I was at my wits

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end in terms of career in the military.

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I'd gone from being an

educator to doing fun stuff.

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Uh, suddenly I was in acquisitions

and I absolutely did it.

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And then I went out to DIU and it

was like, Oh, there's, There's a

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chance to actually change things.

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And it turns out that's really hard.

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Really, really hard, but

it's kind of worth doing.

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Um, but it, it's just opened

that back up to me now.

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I work with, like, people that are so

insanely brilliant, and I, I love them.

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But I'm watching them run up to

the same false dichotomies, whether

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it be political or something else.

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So, I think that's probably right there.

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Tim Winkler: That's fascinating.

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Yeah, I feel like, um, those are, those

are themes that kind of pop up throughout,

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um, a lot of our discussions with guests

on this, on, on, on this podcast is,

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you know, kind of dives into a little

bit more of like specifics of like

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the culture to at every organization.

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And then you can get more granular

with that of like, the different

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tech culture and everything else.

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But, um.

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Yeah, I think that's a,

it's a fascinating point.

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And, you know, I'd love to hear a little

bit more about, um, you know, kind

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of like the, you know, the, the theme

over at off works too, which is what

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we'll, we'll, we'll jump into and learn

a little bit more on this discussion.

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So, uh, let's, let's go ahead and make

that transition point, uh, into, into the

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heart of, of what we want to talk about.

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So, um, the way I kind of envisioned

this discussion flowing would be,

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you know, having both of you kind

of paint a quick picture on what,

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you know, what your organizations

do, uh, and then we can lead into.

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You know, what specifically second

front systems is delivering to AFWERX.

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Um, and then, uh, you know, can

dissect a little bit more on like

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the different aspects on the software

delivery and the implementation process.

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Um, but, uh, Chi, why don't you begin

first by maybe explaining, you know,

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what, for a lot of our listeners that

aren't queued into, into the defense

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space, you know, what AFWERX stands for,

you know, the mission, and then we can

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pass to you Enrique and dive deeper into

work that Second Front's delivering.

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Chee Gansberg: So yeah, AFWERX

is a fairly large organization.

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Uh, at this point, we've got Uh, for kind

of core, uh, core pieces of the team and,

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uh, the public facing portion of Afworks,

the, the folks out there in the civilian

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sector, they probably think of ventures

when they think of Afworks, which is the

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simmer arm and they go out and actually

execute, you know, the largest simmer

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portfolio in the federal government.

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Uh, and which is.

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Quite a bit of money

and a lot of contracts.

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The, um, the other portions of

AFWERX, uh, are Spark, which is

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actually where I started in AFWERX.

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And it looks at, uh, fostering

innovation internally in the air force

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to get that innovation mindset all

the way down to the airmen and help

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airmen actually mature good ideas.

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These are, these are the, the, the

small R requirements that are actually

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important in And, and they solve

those problems better than anybody

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else, but there's no infrastructure

for helping them mature those, those

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solutions up to the, the broader, more

political levels through the PEOs.

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So that's spark and then prime,

which is where I live now.

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Uh, it exists as a, um, it started

as a tech transition organization.

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Didn't really do a lot of that.

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Uh, and then the last couple of years,

we actually looked back at, at say, small

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UAS, which were invented in California.

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And, and then we promptly let the federal

government screw up the legislation

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around small UAS, especially the FAA.

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And we Promptly, uh, exported

that entire market to China.

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And we realized like, we're

not going to make that mistake

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again with, uh, buying cars.

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So stood up a, an organization inside

prime called agility prime, which

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has spent hundreds of millions of

dollars over the last few years,

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maturing that technology and getting.

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The technology for

flying cars, ready to go.

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Uh, now we're to the point where

FAA has become the problem again.

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And, uh, the cynic in me is like,

Oh, well, this probably isn't

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going to work out as well as we

thought, but we did our part.

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We, we got the tech to

where it needs to be.

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It's at the policy level where

we're running into problems.

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The fourth one is new

and is, uh, like our.

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It's an internal organization,

but it's intelligence.

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And this actually gets into our

relationship with second front.

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When, uh, Simber looked at not being, uh,

renewed two years ago, uh, in Congress

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and had us all panicking and freaking

out that we were all going to have to

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get new assignments and all the civilians

were going to get let up, let go.

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And contractors would be gone because

what is Afworks without Simber?

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And the, uh, the do outs

for it were two things.

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One was go do better.

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Um, Better assessments of these

companies, making sure we're not

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incidentally funding Chinese venture

capital and enabling tech transfer.

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And Enrique and I know Dr.

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Brown well, who wrote a great paper on

it when we were back at DIU, making sure

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that doesn't become a recurring theme and

that we're not funding it through AFWERX.

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The other thing that we did though,

is we looked at how hard it was to

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support those airmen, uh, with anything,

uh, Congress selected us and said,

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your transition numbers are horrible.

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You've spent over a billion

dollars a year on Simmers.

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How many of them actually make it to

a phase three, make it to transition

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to, you know, to the government

or to the commercial sector?

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And the numbers are pretty small.

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So go fix that.

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Turns out that's really

hard to fix for hardware.

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All the intent for software was ATOs.

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And, uh, Second Front had a program

with, uh, DIU that we could just

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leverage and pull it into AFWERX and

say, Hey, look, this is a great way to

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actually enable, whether it be small

businesses through the Silver Portfolio

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or airmen who are developing things

to rapidly go get an ATO and fix that.

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That huge problem for us.

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And then of course, Enrique and I let the

good idea fairies flow, but we decided

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to extend tech ops out to the edge.

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Now this has turned into a totally

insane thing, but, um, I'm loving it.

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Uh, that, that, that part's way more fun.

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I think what I

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Mike Gruen: learned the most is that,

uh, we really had a missed opportunity

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for a pairing of government and acronyms.

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Uh, so just

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We'll have to put some show notes

together for all those acronyms.

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Tim Winkler: Yeah, we're not used to

common practice at this point, but,

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um, I don't think I realized how, you

know, how robust, how many programs

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were, were kind of happening across.

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Across app works and um, with the

kind of collaboration with second

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front, it sounds like it was just

right, right time, right place.

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Obviously a good, a good connection there.

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Past performance in terms of, you know,

knowing one another and having that trust.

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Uh, Enrique, maybe, maybe just kind

of build a little bit more on on

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second front and then we can start

to dig a little bit more into how

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this implementation took place.

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Enrique Oti: Yeah.

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So, uh, second front, uh, has

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Uh, and in its early days, it was

founded by two former Marines.

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It was basically like, why are we

going into combat with technology?

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That's not much better than

our adversaries, but our

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tech at home is awesome.

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And so they're like, how do you

transition the best of Silicon Valley?

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Again, when I say Silicon Valley,

it's the broad like tech ecosystem.

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Like, how do you, how do you

transition the best of Silicon

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Valley and the government?

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And second front at the

time, tried consulting.

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They tried building some applications

that help with the acquisitions process.

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But at the end of the day, through

this, a couple of years of exploration,

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the company really figured out,

you know, you have two roadblocks.

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To getting really good

tech in the government.

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One is the contracts and the

others, the security accreditation.

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Well, you're not going

to solve the contracts.

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Like there have been commission

after commission on how to do

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acquisition reform, tons of new

methodologies for contracting.

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And at the end of the day,

people like DIU and app works and

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others are trying to solve that.

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So the company really in, in like

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we decided to pivot, we're like,

you know, we're not going to help

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the government buy stuff better.

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Like we can't.

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Uh, but we can help them secure it better.

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We can actually let them go faster on

the cybersecurity piece so they can

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actually make use of these products

that they buy, because, you know,

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there, we have a lot of use case or

examples of the government putting

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somebody under contract with a siever.

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We paid them a million

dollars, a million and a half.

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They've been under contract for two

years and they never get accredited.

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But what that means is

they were never used.

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So in other words, the government just

spent over a million dollars on nothing.

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And sure.

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One time.

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Okay.

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That's bad.

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But when you start doing this thousands

of times, you look at a nearly billion

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dollar super budget that most of

it's going to stuff that it never

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gets transitioned, actually not in

transition, most of it never gets used.

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And that's even worse.

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And so we're like, well,

how do we solve this?

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How do we make it better?

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How do we reduce that friction?

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Because in reality, there's, there's

friction on both sides for those small

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innovators, this may be their only

time ever working with the government.

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They've never filled out

accreditation paperwork.

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They don't know who to talk to.

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They don't know what the acronyms

and acronyms mean either.

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They're looking those up on Google

saying, what does this mean that

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the government asked me for this?

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And so for them, it is an

extremely painful process.

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And these are small companies having

to hire outside consultants to

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help them just fill out paperwork.

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But on the other side, the

government, it's just as bad.

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The security officials on the

government, poor dudes and women,

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they are overworked, underpaid.

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And what happens is like their users, like

their operational end users, like annoying

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people like Chi who, who he's, he's an

operator, but he's also a technologist.

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So they come going, Oh my

God, I need these 15 apps.

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Those accreditors don't

want to deal with that.

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Um, they don't want their users

come to him saying, I want these 100

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different commercial apps because

they're like, I don't have time.

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So they end up just saying no, and

it's not because they want to say

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no, they say no, because they just

don't have time to look at 100

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different commercial companies.

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So we, in many ways, provide that kind

of that, that matching mechanism inside,

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which is commercial companies come to

us, we, we help them through the process.

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We provide them tooling to do it.

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So it's not just filling out paperwork.

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We do the tools for it, but then

the government, they've already

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accredited us one time they can

look at us go, Oh yeah, we trust

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that 90 percent of the tech stack.

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Now we only have to look

at that top little layer.

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That's the application itself.

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So it actually makes the process

easier for the creditors as well.

391

So really at the end of the day,

everybody's happier, but more importantly,

392

the tools get to the end user, which

is actually what we all care about.

393

Mike Gruen: Enrique, I'm curious

394

went through that process as a company.

395

We're trying to get our stuff

through that accreditation.

396

And we did the same thing.

397

We had our own internal people.

398

We hired a couple of consultants.

399

We had this, we had that.

400

One of the biggest friction points for

us was that the security requirements

401

as written were less like we're less

secure than what we were actually doing.

402

We were above what was in

the documentation, but the

403

people we were dealing with.

404

You know, I'm not going to take anything

away from them, but like, they're like,

405

well, no, you're not blah, blah, blah,

compliant because you're not using

406

one of these encryption algorithms.

407

Like, yeah, we're using a newer one.

408

That's better.

409

And it hasn't been accredited.

410

You know, it's like, and so

it was very, uh, I'm curious,

411

like, are you seeing that?

412

Is that changed on the last 10 years?

413

Is that

414

Enrique Oti: that, Oh, man.

415

I'm kind of optimistic here.

416

Trying to look at the bright side of this.

417

Okay, so let's explain the

problem you want us to.

418

So, we'll look at the framework.

419

So, NIST 800 53 is a standard

NIST framework for how do

420

you do software security.

421

We just switched to version 5, right?

422

NIST 800 53 REV 5.

423

Well, REV 4 was released in 2013.

424

What that means is, Rev four was

written based off technology.

425

So on 2013, and actually it was

426

So you're really looking at 2010

technology that gets written into policy.

427

And only in about 2023, 2024, do

you start having a revision of that?

428

So you're right.

429

There are really exciting

portions of ref for that.

430

You're looking at going, if I comply with

this, I'll be incredibly insecure because

431

the world of technology has changed.

432

So this is one of the huge issues is.

433

When you have a compliance built framework

for accreditation, then your compliance,

434

the compliance policy can never keep

pace with emergence of technology.

435

I'll just talk to Google.

436

Google had a whole different way

of how they shard data and they

437

don't stick all the data in one

data center and one locked facility.

438

And so in many ways, Google's

cloud didn't meet the standard

439

expected by the government.

440

It took them years to finally

convince DISA and the government

441

that yes, even though it's different.

442

It is, it meets the

intent of being secure.

443

Again, that's different as opposed to

like Microsoft and AWS that stuck their

444

data centers on facilities that they could

say, yep, all your data is in one spot

445

and it's surrounded by a guy with a gun.

446

Um, and so, yeah, that's a huge issue

of keeping up with those standards.

447

So that's why for us.

448

We try to do that on their behalf

and then still try to offer up modern

449

tooling and modern processes that

still comply within that framework.

450

But from a commercial vendor

standpoint, when they look at what

451

we're offering, they're like, Oh

yeah, I've used those tools before.

452

Those are current modern

software development tools.

453

I feel comfortable with.

454

Mike Gruen: Are you seeing that on

the compliance side, sorry, on the

455

compliance side, that there'd be like

these standards that are being written,

456

are they being written more abstractly

more on the spirit of like what, what

457

the intent of these things are rather

than being so explicit about you need

458

to be using one of these handful of

things that we know two years from

459

now is going to be no longer relevant.

460

Enrique Oti: I'll give a short

answer and then she'll let you.

461

The.

462

I think they're getting better.

463

And there's a couple of

ways you look at this.

464

So DOD CIO's office, uh, has

actually been putting out new

465

guidance for continuous ATOs.

466

That's a relatively new model where

security is less about based off of, uh,

467

filling out spreadsheets of, uh, control

maps against risk management frameworks.

468

It's actually more about continuous

monitoring, continuous assessments, which

469

is exactly where we should be going.

470

And then the biggest one,

the army CIO last week.

471

For early this week, put

out great guidance on how to

472

secure things in the cloud.

473

It is one of the best memos I've seen.

474

It's like 28 pages.

475

I don't know.

476

Said no one ever.

477

Well, if you're in a sort

of thing, it's kind of cool.

478

Uh, yeah, actually.

479

So, so I think you're seeing a

real change and the Air Force, I

480

think really took the lead on this.

481

That's awesome.

482

USATOS, but.

483

You know, there's a really, there's

a movement now, and I think it's

484

going in the right direction.

485

Chee Gansberg: I, I, I like how Enrique

talked around the fact that he was kind

486

of on the ground floor helping make all

these things happen, the continuous ATO.

487

Uh, I, when, uh, he was still at DIU

transitioning to Castle Run, This was a

488

story told to me by one of the auditors,

uh, who's now at app works, but there was

489

a huge pushback against the continuous ATO

process because the static RMF, the static

490

ATO, the way ATOs were done beforehand

that we knew, like us as tech people knew

491

we were exposing ourselves to massive

amounts of, uh, security vulnerabilities

492

just because you got an ATO.

493

That means this, this SES said

you were, you were secure.

494

On that date and time, and you probably

were for what was known at that date

495

and time, but then all these zero days

are discovered and turns out that that

496

thing's got more holes than Swiss cheese.

497

I can't go fix them because the

moment we fix them, we break the

498

policy that allows me to use it.

499

So I just have to risk and we do that.

500

We do that all the time.

501

With the, uh, when they, when they

stood up Kessel Run, they, uh, I don't

502

know if anybody was paying attention

to how many of the commits that

503

they were committing to back to the

core were actually remediating CVEs.

504

We didn't care because the, the whole

idea of switching to an agile framework

505

was giving the user what they wanted,

sticking to like, Agile principles.

506

So we're willing to say when, when

the auditors came in and said, you're

507

exposing yourself to so much more

risk by this continuous ATO process.

508

Um, you know, you guys are

going to fail miserably.

509

And, uh, they were like, well, it's

a risk we're willing to take to give

510

the user software they'll actually

use and be able to iterate on.

511

That's so worth it just

from that perspective.

512

And then when they go into the evaluation

and find it's like the most secure

513

software in the air force because Like

getting CVS remediated, that's when

514

they realized like, wow, you're, you're

giving the user something they want.

515

And you're also actually making

it more cyber secure yet.

516

We don't have a policy to

capture that that cyber security

517

assessment is accurate and valid.

518

And so now it's like the PM who owns

the contract with, with second front,

519

we've deep platform users who haven't.

520

You know, like a new CV has been

discovered and they didn't meet the

521

CV remediation requirements in time.

522

Um, we're going to bring them back

on once they get their code back up

523

to standards, but in the traditional

way, Oh, they'd still be a platform.

524

They'd still be pushing.

525

And then we would just have

exposed, you know, vulnerabilities.

526

So it has, I think the policy has

moved on and we've gotten better.

527

And, uh, I really honestly, Enrique

and a handful of other folks from like

528

that early Kessel Run era are really

kind of who set those conditions

529

that the rest of us are just, we're

standing on the shoulders of giants.

530

Enrique Oti: Let's get credit where

credit's due on this one though.

531

So, you know, Mike, you're kind

of joking that I've said, Oh my

532

God, what an amazing army policy.

533

Um, policy matters.

534

In the government policy is it's like

the Bible, you know, and so it's great.

535

Like what we were doing there, it

was a lot of like these crazy ideas.

536

Myself in a few years of the had, we stole

the ideas from, uh, us digital services.

537

We stole the ideas from

NGA, uh, with Paul Puckett.

538

We sold the ideas from

Leo Garcia, got Jido.

539

Um, and it's great that I have ideas

and I sold them as deepest PowerPoint.

540

And like, I'm like, I'm like going around,

like evangelizing this new model based

541

off a really colorful and PowerPoint

slides with memes, but it actually took

542

someone in this case, a guy named Brian

Kroger to actually take that and turn

543

it into an air force policy that you can

show to leaders and get somebody to sign.

544

Like that's, and that's what

matters because there's all

545

this innovation out there.

546

That's absolute theater because

until it is turned into a

547

policy that is now repeatable.

548

It doesn't matter.

549

It's like it never happened.

550

There's just way too much of that

in the department of defense.

551

And so, yeah, policy does matter.

552

And somebody has to be willing

to write that stuff down on

553

paper and get it, uh, signed.

554

Mike Gruen: No, absolutely.

555

Enrique Oti: Yeah.

556

Tim Winkler: Yeah, we actually had

Kroger on, on the pod, uh, talking, uh,

557

yeah, he, he, he, he talked a little

bit more about that, that Kessel run

558

story and how it all came to be as well.

559

I mean, it's, it's really a, uh,

an excellent, uh, example of how,

560

you know, you fall into the second

front, uh, company and, and it's.

561

It's just an organic, uh, kind

of next step for you, given

562

the Kessel Run backstory.

563

Um, I want to get a little, a little

bit more granular and we talked about

564

this briefly, Enrique, in our discovery

call, but, um, you know, trying to, you

565

know, uh, simplify a little bit more

for, you know, maybe these, you know,

566

some founders that listen, uh, to,

to our, our podcasts that, you know,

567

are, are breaking into the defense

space, or maybe they're working with a

568

consultant or an advisory firm to help.

569

You know, position themselves, maybe a

dual use scenario or something like this.

570

Walk me through like, what, uh, you know,

how, how second front is, is working with

571

these companies from, you know, uh, The

different phases like discovery and how,

572

you know, you don't get too deep into

the weeds of it, but I'd love to hear

573

just a little bit more of like, how, how

does these engagement, how they flow?

574

Enrique Oti: Yeah.

575

So I think the engagement actually,

it kind of has two halves.

576

So the first half is obviously what

we do with the government first.

577

Like, how do we make sure that the

platform we deploy, the tooling we

578

have, the reports that the tools

generate, how do we make sure it

579

meets what the government cares

about and what they need to see?

580

And that's kind of an,

uh, an evolving process.

581

Is, you know, different accreditors,

different security officials want

582

to see stuff slightly differently.

583

Um, as time goes on, it's one

of the things like there's the

584

expectation always increases.

585

It's like, sure, that was secure last

quarter, but how about this quarter?

586

What else have you added to, to

give us a higher level of assurance?

587

So there is a, as we as a company

are delivering to the government.

588

We are constantly having to engage,

I think, and this is very different

589

than, you know, there's other ways

to deliver the government there.

590

You can provide services where it's just

like, you're just butts and seats, your

591

bodies for the government to use at will.

592

You know, that is not our model.

593

We provide a technology, but the thing

is, we're providing our technology.

594

What we're not doing is we didn't

build a technology based off

595

the government giving us it.

596

800 pages of technical specs

saying, please build this widget.

597

And so what's happened is because we built

it to what we think is the right thing

598

to do, it ends up becoming a continuous

negotiation with the government.

599

Like, does this meet your standards?

600

Do you want to see it differently?

601

Do you want to see something else?

602

And so it's a constantly evolving process

of what our technology looks like.

603

And so that's our government relations.

604

But then the other side of the

house, like we talked about is

605

working with the commercial side.

606

So for commercial companies that want

to work with the government, that

607

engagement really starts with us,

um, doing like a tech screen saying,

608

you know, what is your app look like?

609

How is it built?

610

What's your tech stack?

611

What toolings are you using?

612

What cloud services are you using?

613

What external connections do you have?

614

And we really kind of do an assessment

saying, does it fit our model?

615

Cause at the end of the

day, I love our platform.

616

But I'm a firm believer that there's

no one solution for everything.

617

There are definitely some use cases of

technologies that I'm sorry, our platform,

618

it just, it's not compatible for you.

619

I wish it was, but that's

not how technology works.

620

There's software that is so advanced

using so many advanced underlying

621

cloud features, like there's no way

we could support that 'cause it's

622

well beyond what an accreditor or

policy would feel comfortable with.

623

At the other end, there's these

technologies that are like, man,

624

you're like nowhere close to being

cloud native or containerized.

625

We like, it's gonna take you a year

to to refactor to work with us.

626

So we try to cover like the core

center of the bell curve of modern

627

app development, containerization.

628

So we do a tech screen.

629

Then once we bring the

company on as a customer.

630

Uh, we start off by like, we

just take their containers.

631

We don't take their code.

632

We take their containers.

633

We scan them against a

bunch of security tooling.

634

We run hardening scripts against it to

minimize, you know, basically STIG and

635

minimize the container images and all

the root accounts and extra libraries.

636

And then we throw them up in a dev

cluster, run a, make sure the stuff works.

637

We have a full observability

stack and login and monitoring.

638

So we make sure performance is there.

639

And then we work with it to deploy

out into our environment where we

640

force an integration with our IDAM

solution, force an integration

641

through our networking paths, our

observability stack, our security stack.

642

And that's actually what allows

them to inherit our accreditation

643

or be given a certificate to

field off our accreditation.

644

Is because they're using all of our

tooling that has already been accredited

645

and that's what makes it work.

646

So, uh, for a company that's considering

this kind of model, you know, the downside

647

is you lose a little bit of control in

prod and a little bit of architecture

648

design of saying, you know, your engineers

cannot be as creative as they want to be.

649

But on the positive side, you

actually don't have to have as

650

many infrastructure engineers.

651

You don't have to have

the compliance team.

652

You don't have to have the 24

hour monitoring team because

653

we're covering all that for you.

654

So it's a, it's a, it's a business

and technology trade off for that

655

company saying, do they want to go at

all themselves and have full control?

656

Or do they want to give up a little

bit of control in those day two ops

657

for the fact that you can go for,

go faster and have a quicker market.

658

Mike Gruen: And I feel like that's

just the same old, like in the

659

technology world, build versus buy type.

660

Discussion like what's our core competency

and having lived through that, where we

661

actually had to hire a full time person

who is going to be sort of trying to

662

deploy the stuff at the government and

various Intel agencies and like trying to

663

figure out how we take what we did in the

cloud at AWS and how are we going to get

664

this deployed into these data centers?

665

And luckily we didn't use it.

666

AWS, like we're not cloud

agnostic, but it's still a pain.

667

Um, so I see the value.

668

I mean, we, I would have loved

to have you guys back then, but

669

it made things so much easier

670

Enrique Oti: when you kick

off your next tech company.

671

Let us know,

672

Tim Winkler: I'll be in touch.

673

So it's kind of a, you know, a genius,

uh, concept, uh, just knowing the,

674

you know, the, the hoops that you

have to jump through, you kind of

675

cut out all that legwork for them.

676

Um, but it sounds like a, you know, a

kind of continuous iterative delivery for

677

them to kind of given how always changing,

like the policies and the requirements

678

are going to be on the government side.

679

So then when you, when you engage

this, this commercial company and.

680

Things are kind of kicked off.

681

It's a good fit.

682

You, you, you agree to,

to kind of press forward.

683

What's the level of communication?

684

Uh, how much back and forth is there

between, you know, you and that

685

commercial company moving forward?

686

Is it, you know, what kind of cadence

do you guys connect back and forth?

687

Uh, or is it just kind of.

688

Enrique Oti: Do you want me to

show you our Slack channels?

689

Can you?

690

I would love to say, uh, our Slack

channels blow up because they're always

691

happy that we do incredible work,

but you guys know how the reality is.

692

Sometimes their Slack channels blow

up because something went wrong.

693

But at the end of the day, like we have

that kind of literally the day to day

694

interaction with our customers and the day

to day interaction with the government.

695

Like, Relationships matter.

696

Like I know everybody says

technology, it's an abstraction.

697

You can move away from people.

698

AI can move away from people.

699

No, no, no, no.

700

The relationships are even more important

when you're doing something that both

701

for mission has purpose and it's more

technologically advanced or cutting edge.

702

Like you have to have those relationships.

703

And so we try to maintain good

relationships with our customers.

704

I hope they would agree if they're

listening to this, but you know, if

705

you don't, please let me know black

and I'll, uh, start to solve it.

706

Mike Gruen: Totally agree.

707

I mean, it goes back to, I mean, I'm

not trying to plug myself here, but that

708

pairing that I had around trust, right?

709

If I know that you have the, that

you're competent and trust that you

710

know how to secure things like that

goes a long way when I'm reviewing

711

your security documentation and I.

712

As opposed to if I don't think that,

you know, and then I'm going to

713

be looking for, you know, through

it more fine tooth and so the

714

relationships absolutely matter.

715

Tim Winkler: I'm curious, is

there, um, you know, on the AFWERX

716

side, uh, in connection to second

front, like, are there specific.

717

You know, metrics, uh, that you

all are looking at to, you know,

718

it's kind of evaluating the

success of the of the solution.

719

Chee Gansberg: Oh, yeah.

720

Uh, I mean, specific metrics

themselves, like from a, um, you know,

721

cybersecurity perspective, obviously,

those are all well documented.

722

But there's even the onboarding process

like he talked about, um, you know,

723

there's a relationship there between the

two companies, which Totally benefits

724

the government in that it's like from

an engineering perspective, it's B2B

725

and I'm not getting involved in the

middle, um, which really saves the

726

government a lot of time and headache.

727

But for all of these apps with, with

rare exceptions, the exceptions being

728

autonomy prime, which are also mine.

729

Um, the, the rest of them are, there's

another government personnel involved too.

730

So you've got a government sponsor for

the actual app that's getting on board.

731

That government sponsor and I will

work together and figure out, like,

732

is second front the right fit?

733

And then if they are, then that becomes

a natural transition path for them.

734

And then the company will

start working together.

735

But there's still another government

PM involved in all of this.

736

So, uh, which has worked out

great because that government PM.

737

Like I'm, I'm focused because of the

platform with second front, I'm just

738

focused on like cyber security and, and

compliance and policy that other PM gets

739

to, he doesn't even have to think about

that he gets to focus on like day two

740

ops and prod and like adding features.

741

And what does his actual

user base that he represents?

742

What do they care about?

743

And then that other company

is to focus on that too.

744

So you, it's, it's not.

745

To, to quote, uh, uh, it's, it's a lot

of blocking and tackling and it's, it's

746

not sexy stuff, but it has to get done by

doing that and abstracting that layer out

747

from, you know, from the, the companies

that are actually performing, they get to

748

focus on the things that really matter.

749

Um, that's actually how I ended up at

DIU is I wanted to do that for JTAC

750

software and take the thing that every

JTAC in the Air Force has in common.

751

Or not the air force and the DOD abstract

that out, do the unsexy stuff and then

752

let all the program offices focus on what

made them unique and special snowflakes.

753

Uh, and it turns out like that same

process needs to happen at that corporate

754

dual use level for everything we're

755

Tim Winkler: at now.

756

Yeah, it's really interesting.

757

And Enrique, you all are probably,

you know, getting exposure to so

758

much interesting, you know, companies

and entrepreneurs and technologies

759

that are coming through the door.

760

And it's a really, really neat

kind of like funnel that you all

761

get to play a part in and bridging

that gap of how to add value into

762

the larger defense ecosystem.

763

I think, um, you know, I, unless

there's anything specific that you

764

wanted to, to tack on in terms of,

you know, how, you know, how this

765

process kind of flows, then we kind

of tackled it from a bird's eye view.

766

I don't think we need to get too

much more granular unless there's

767

something there, Enrique, that you, you

wanted to add on as a final takeaway.

768

Enrique Oti: Yeah, a final takeaway.

769

And it's less about our, like our process,

you know, it's our process, but like.

770

If you step it back, like what's the

process of a company working with a

771

government, like something I did not

realize when I was on the government side,

772

I'm like, Oh my God, this is so easy.

773

Uh, I didn't actually realize the pain

we put companies through to work with us.

774

Now that we're on the company side,

I really see what that pain is.

775

And it's incredible.

776

Things like you never think about

like, uh, pieces of paper, like there's

777

this magical piece of paper called

a DD 254, which is a piece of paper.

778

She might.

779

It's, it's a piece of paper that lets

you get access to like, you're allowed

780

to have access to this facility.

781

You're allowed to have access to

this classification, whatever.

782

Shockingly, sometimes getting someone to

sign a sheet of paper can take months and

783

you don't really think about that when

you're on the commercial side, like, Oh,

784

I got to execute on a contract and I have

to get a bunch of people piece of paper

785

signed or like, how do I actually get

on a network to see if my product works?

786

You don't actually really think about that

when you're delivering to the government

787

that, oh yeah, you actually have to have a

government virtualized computer somewhere.

788

And how do you get that kind of thing?

789

Like there's all these little things that

when you're a commercial vendor and you're

790

so excited about submitting for an RFI

or putting your proposal in or something

791

like what you don't realize is that the

hard part is not getting the contract.

792

The hard part is there's so much

other bureaucracy after you've been

793

in the contract and really none of

it's under the control of the program

794

manager that you're working with.

795

It's actually They're usually

just as frustrated because there's

796

all these other rules, even the

simple things like, Hey, I need it.

797

My team needs ID cards so we can

either get on a base or log in.

798

It's like, and then you ask,

like, ID cards and your program

799

manager, like, I don't know.

800

I got my, I don't know how you get yours.

801

You just described my

802

Mike Gruen: experience of trying

to get down to the Aberdeen.

803

And like, this

804

Enrique Oti: was stuff that

I was on the government side.

805

I never considered because I'm like,

It's just what we do every day.

806

And then you don't realize the commercial

companies have no idea how to do it.

807

And when they ask you, you realize.

808

Oh, I actually don't

know how to do it either.

809

Um, so anyway, that's the fun part

of delivering to the government.

810

It's a challenge every day.

811

Chee Gansberg: Thank you for

describing most of my life lately.

812

It's been doing those things.

813

Yeah.

814

No, it's, uh, the, the deeper I get

into supporting other war fighters,

815

like outside of my community, the

more, um, the more I found that a

816

SOCOM had a pretty well oiled machine

in terms of conventional acquisitions

817

and the rest of the DOD is not.

818

Um, And yet I don't even exist trying

to do the rest of the DoD from a

819

conventional acquisitions perspective.

820

I'm working in a.

821

You know, innovative acquisitions

perspective, which is trying to go

822

even faster than so calm, but it

turns out that, uh, yeah, you're that

823

means I'm one on Monday afternoon.

824

I'm sitting there with, uh, you know, and

PhDs talking about real high level stuff.

825

But Tuesday afternoon, I'm going

to be working on forms for.

826

People to get ID cards and

find access to networks.

827

So I think it's taken 15 drafts of a

DD 254 because I'm learning as I do it.

828

So it's,

829

Enrique Oti: yeah, the totally unsexy

side of defense innovation is paperwork.

830

Yeah.

831

Tim Winkler: Oh yeah.

832

All right.

833

We don't want to sugarcoat

it for folks too.

834

I mean, it could be a huge time suck

and a waste of time for you to consider

835

like, you know, really making that,

that pivot down, down that rabbit hole.

836

And so I think it's, it's an interesting,

I mean, you have that level of empathy,

837

Enrique, where, you know, having sat

in that and on both sides, um, it is

838

creating also, you know, there's a lot

of opportunities that are being created

839

from like advisory firms coming in

and, You know, helping those, those,

840

uh, entities kind of save that time.

841

Um, but, um, there's obviously

a lot of work to be done.

842

We're, we're having some interesting

conversations coming up here soon in a

843

couple of weeks on, on more of this, you

know, government reform and dissecting

844

like, um, the, the FAFSA, the federal

acquisition streamline, uh, act.

845

Um, cause that whole Palantir use cases is

a fascinating one to kind of pick apart.

846

But, um, there's, There's, you

know, there's definitely a, uh, I

847

would say in the last few years, you

know, there's, you know, certainly

848

been a lot of, uh, interest, uh,

building, uh, and, and getting

849

involved in, in the defense sector.

850

There's been, you know, there's, there's

a level of stability that comes with this,

851

you know, with the government as well,

where you see a downslide in some of the

852

commercial markets, like we've been seeing

that, you know, leads to founders figuring

853

out how to diversify and become more.

854

Um, you know, dual use if the use

case exists, but I think this, you

855

know, this is just another episode,

another example of, you know, just

856

a small nugget of wisdom on, you

know, how some of it's done as a, as

857

a good use case with second front.

858

So definitely value the, uh, uh, the

time that you guys, uh, contributed

859

to, to break that down and explain it.

860

And, um.

861

I know we have just a couple of minutes

left, so I want to, I do want to get

862

to the five second scramble real quick.

863

I think it's a fun one to just

kind of learn a little bit

864

more about you guys as guests.

865

Um, so, uh, Mike, I want you to

kick it off with Enrique, and then

866

I'll, I'll, I'll take a, take Chi.

867

So here we

868

Mike Gruen: go.

869

I'm just going to ask you questions.

870

Don't worry about it.

871

It's a mix of like business questions,

then personal questions, you'll be fine.

872

All right.

873

You ready?

874

Uh, explain second front to me

as if I were a five year old.

875

Enrique Oti: Um, you, you just bought

a new toy and you want to play with

876

your new toy, but you can't play with

it until your dad spends eight months

877

filling out pieces of paper that

says you're allowed to play with it.

878

Uh,

879

Mike Gruen: what type of

technologists thrive at second front?

880

Enrique Oti: Oh man.

881

Uh, Technologists that have

actually served at like the tip

882

of the spear in the military.

883

Like if you're like a cutting

edge special operator and you like

884

tech, those are the kind of people

that thrive because, you know.

885

It's an undefined problems and

you just have to solve them.

886

And that kind of, it's the mindset that

seems to work basically to anybody,

887

anyone who has that kind of mindset.

888

It was like, I just

want to solve problems.

889

Mike Gruen: Uh, what's your favorite

part about the culture at second front?

890

Enrique Oti: Um, I don't think

we take ourselves too seriously.

891

We have like a whole meme

channel, which is just a blast.

892

And like everything we do is

like, there's a lot of like.

893

Unserious aspects of our day to day

life, uh, which then compensates

894

for the fact that we have to

act serious when God in public.

895

So, you know,

896

Mike Gruen: it's good.

897

Do you have a chief memes officer?

898

That's a lot of companies.

899

We've had that.

900

Enrique Oti: We actually do.

901

His name is Dylan Sims.

902

Uh, he's a rock star.

903

I mean, yeah.

904

Awesome.

905

That wasn't

906

Mike Gruen: one of the ones.

907

Anyway, uh, if you could have

one hour mentor session with

908

any tech giant, who would it be?

909

Oh my

910

Enrique Oti: God.

911

Um, you know, I actually,

I'll, I'll say Kevin Mandia.

912

I just, the work that he has done on

pioneering security for attribution of

913

adversaries, which again, this is me

putting my former military hat on what

914

I used to, like, I love that stuff.

915

Love to sit down.

916

It was like biggest brain for

an hour on adversary threats.

917

Mike Gruen: Uh, something you did

as a kid that you still enjoy.

918

Was that something you did as

a child that you still enjoy?

919

Enrique Oti: Uh, so I, you know,

over Christmas, my kids bought me

920

another Lego set, so I still do Legos.

921

Yeah.

922

Mike Gruen: Nice.

923

Uh, what's a, uh, charity or corporate

philanthropy that's near and dear to you?

924

Enrique Oti: Um, I donate, I've been

donating for years to an organization

925

called International Justice Mission,

which, so IGM actually helps, uh, free,

926

uh, slaves, uh, from around the world.

927

We had a huge slavery issue right now.

928

It's, it's, it's massive.

929

It's all over the world.

930

And so they go out and try to get,

uh, slaves both through legal systems

931

and through other methodologies, like.

932

Education and then the legal system

to get people removed from slavery.

933

Mike Gruen: Wow.

934

Um, what's something you love

doing but are really bad at?

935

Enrique Oti: Uh, so I broke my

elbow dislocated at playing soccer

936

because I'm that bad and that clumsy

that I fell, but I still love it.

937

I'm still a great sport.

938

So there we go.

939

Mike Gruen: Cool.

940

Uh, last one, cause I know you got to go.

941

Uh, what's the most outdated

piece of tech you can't let go of?

942

Enrique Oti: Well, like most

people, I still have like two

943

gigantic boxes of old cabling.

944

I just never know when I might need it.

945

So it's still there.

946

That's what's in my closet.

947

It's my wife.

948

It is going to kill me at some point.

949

I drag it from place to place.

950

Um, yeah, I think that's probably it.

951

It's just all my cables.

952

Tim Winkler: Classic.

953

That's great.

954

Yeah.

955

Everybody can relate to that.

956

Freaking drawer of just old

cables, just sitting there.

957

God knows what they go to.

958

I've got some good SCSI cables.

959

It's awesome.

960

Chee Gansberg: Oh, I don't have a SCSI.

961

Tim Winkler: That's awesome.

962

Uh, all right.

963

Yeah.

964

Last, uh, last few minutes here, Chi.

965

Uh, you, you ready?

966

All right.

967

So what is one word you'd use to describe

the innovation culture at AFWERX?

968

Chee Gansberg: Complex

969

Tim Winkler: said, uh, what's one

emerging technology that you believe

970

will revolutionize air force operations?

971

Chee Gansberg: Um, I mean, I could

take the cheap way out and say AI,

972

but, um, I, I think it's actually.

973

It's not so much technology itself.

974

It's going to be the way we ingest

technology, um, and changing

975

the, changing the way we, we

proliferate it throughout the DoD.

976

Tim Winkler: What's the first step

that you would advise startups

977

to that are looking to take that

next leap to working with the DoD?

978

Chee Gansberg: First look internally to

make sure you really want to do this.

979

Um, second, I would say having

a, um, While there's a lot of

980

benefit to working with the D.

981

O.

982

D, especially if you're trying to

mature a product is make sure you

983

have some sort of, uh, you know,

corporate dual use case in mind, uh,

984

something commercial because, uh, the

government is really good at putting a

985

carrot on the end of a string and then

leading you really, really far down a

986

rabbit hole before you get paid off.

987

So having like if that's

if we're you're Yes, sir.

988

If you're basing your business model

and your venture capital on just

989

dealing with the government, it

can get very dangerous, very fast.

990

Check that runway.

991

Tim Winkler: Um, What, how do you envision

the role of software and the air force

992

changing over the next five to 10 years?

993

Chee Gansberg: I tried to, uh, be

in another soft guy, uh, sat down

994

yesterday and said, we need to update

the SOCOM, uh, mantra from humans

995

are more important than software.

996

That is more important than hardware.

997

Um, I definitely think software is,

uh, Especially getting involved in

998

big programs now that that involve

a lot of high end technology.

999

Software is the most important thing.

00:49:39,199 --> 00:49:42,889

Uh, I get cheap hardware to do all sorts

of amazing things, but I need exquisite

00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:45,449

software to enable those amazing things.

00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:49,750

So, uh, yeah, it's, that's, that's why

I call myself a software evangelist.

00:49:50,260 --> 00:49:50,470

Tim Winkler: Nice.

00:49:51,370 --> 00:49:56,330

If you could race any car on any racetrack

in the world, what and where would it be?

00:49:58,020 --> 00:50:03,490

Chee Gansberg: Oh, the track is, is,

uh, probably want to do the Nürburgring.

00:50:03,670 --> 00:50:07,520

Um, the car would be, that's,

that's a, that's a better question.

00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:12,850

Um, I would, I would love to lie and

say like a modern F1 car, but honestly

00:50:12,850 --> 00:50:20,485

I would just like, I would probably

want something, you know, Some exquisite

00:50:20,485 --> 00:50:24,455

new supercar, uh, that I, I feel like

I'd be able to, to, to go drive myself.

00:50:25,795 --> 00:50:27,875

What's the name of the first

beer that you ever brewed?

00:50:29,705 --> 00:50:34,165

Ooh, the first one I brewed, I don't know.

00:50:34,865 --> 00:50:35,595

That's a hard one.

00:50:35,664 --> 00:50:40,404

I think the first one I brewed of my

own, um, recipe I've, I've named our

00:50:40,405 --> 00:50:46,090

show, um, after a Belgian model, uh,

Uh, but, uh, the, uh, my dad calls it

00:50:46,090 --> 00:50:50,920

the mistake because, uh, it's me trying

to like merge two recipes of two of

00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:52,240

my favorite Belgian beers together.

00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:55,510

And then when it got to brew day,

I was missing some ingredients.

00:50:55,520 --> 00:51:02,240

So I had to just make stuff up and the

resulting beer, uh, when I put it on tap.

00:51:02,790 --> 00:51:08,060

Months later, uh, I, I poured a pint for

my dad and I was like, I apologize if

00:51:08,060 --> 00:51:13,129

this is trash, but this, this is, this is,

this, this is what I had it forward with.

00:51:13,439 --> 00:51:14,360

And my dad took a sip.

00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:16,650

He's like, this is 1 of the best

beers I've ever had in my life.

00:51:16,950 --> 00:51:18,550

Please tell me you wrote this down.

00:51:18,639 --> 00:51:21,219

And I'm like, yeah, so I've

now made it numerous times.

00:51:21,219 --> 00:51:21,914

And if I ever.

00:51:22,255 --> 00:51:23,245

Start my own brewery.

00:51:23,245 --> 00:51:24,885

That will definitely be my flagship beer.

00:51:24,885 --> 00:51:26,375

It's amazing.

00:51:27,325 --> 00:51:28,135

Uh, what

00:51:28,165 --> 00:51:31,475

Tim Winkler: is a charity or corporate

philanthropy that's near and dear to you?

00:51:32,945 --> 00:51:35,315

Chee Gansberg: I've been donating

to the special operations warrior

00:51:35,315 --> 00:51:37,305

foundation pretty much my whole career.

00:51:37,355 --> 00:51:42,794

Um, they've done amazing stuff and taking

care of, uh, uh, the families of fallen

00:51:42,795 --> 00:51:48,780

operators who, um, and, and, I mean,

just in, In not just financial ways, but

00:51:48,780 --> 00:51:53,290

intangible ways, uh, you, you, you're,

you're a high school student and they're

00:51:53,290 --> 00:51:56,710

going to get you a scholarship, but

you're having problems getting grades.

00:51:56,750 --> 00:52:00,020

They'll reach out to the community

and find a nerd like me who loves

00:52:00,700 --> 00:52:05,110

deep math and tutor those kids

before they go off to college.

00:52:05,110 --> 00:52:07,270

So, uh, it's more than just about money.

00:52:07,270 --> 00:52:11,600

It's about actual connections and keeping

those, uh, those people part of the family

00:52:12,070 --> 00:52:14,850

is, uh, I, we, we did a, uh, a call.

00:52:15,135 --> 00:52:19,405

Every January on the anniversary of

one of my buddies, uh, dying and his

00:52:19,435 --> 00:52:24,234

wife has since remarried and moved

on and she dials in and, um, she's,

00:52:24,305 --> 00:52:26,724

she's got a thousand older brothers

that are still looking out for her.

00:52:26,775 --> 00:52:28,685

So I love that organization.

00:52:28,685 --> 00:52:29,225

Very cool.

00:52:29,275 --> 00:52:29,465

Tim Winkler: Yeah.

00:52:29,465 --> 00:52:31,964

We'll plug both of those in

the, in the show notes as well.

00:52:32,014 --> 00:52:33,819

So build some awareness as well.

00:52:34,390 --> 00:52:36,570

Um, what was your dream job as a kid?

00:52:39,900 --> 00:52:40,690

Chee Gansberg: I probably had it.

00:52:40,780 --> 00:52:43,520

Um, honestly, uh, I'm

working in an IndyCar team.

00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:45,300

Um, it was great right up until I did it.

00:52:45,790 --> 00:52:50,610

And then, um, uh, like, well, this is

a lot more work than I was expecting.

00:52:50,959 --> 00:52:56,230

Uh, and then, uh, and then when I went

into the military, um, you know, my,

00:52:56,270 --> 00:53:01,695

my first tech where, um, When, when

things went to hell at a hand carton

00:53:01,695 --> 00:53:05,845

and a gun run, and a guy tells me he's

going to go home and see his daughter

00:53:05,855 --> 00:53:07,495

because of me, it was like that heroin

00:53:07,535 --> 00:53:07,625

Tim Winkler: hit

00:53:08,065 --> 00:53:10,535

Chee Gansberg: and I was dragging

the whole rest of my career.

00:53:10,865 --> 00:53:15,365

Um, and, and now I'd say this is

feels like my dream job right now.

00:53:15,395 --> 00:53:18,354

So much so that as my active duty

retirement is around the corner.

00:53:20,255 --> 00:53:23,615

I'm actually like going to stay

government for a little while as

00:53:23,615 --> 00:53:28,595

a, as GS, just to get like this

program over the line, uh, I've got,

00:53:28,875 --> 00:53:30,314

I'm too like passionately involved.

00:53:30,604 --> 00:53:34,445

And I think the big reason is when,

when I was at Fort Bragg doing Fort

00:53:34,445 --> 00:53:40,765

Bragg stuff there, sorry, Fort Liberty

go, um, they would, um, I felt like I

00:53:40,765 --> 00:53:42,165

was solving today's problems right now.

00:53:42,165 --> 00:53:42,735

And it was great.

00:53:42,775 --> 00:53:46,665

It was very fulfilling, but now I'm

in a position where it's like, Hey,

00:53:46,665 --> 00:53:48,355

go prevent the next 30 years of war.

00:53:48,415 --> 00:53:53,620

And, uh, Make it so that the U S has

competitive advantage that we haven't

00:53:53,620 --> 00:53:58,539

even thought about, um, instead of just

refighting the last, last war over the

00:53:58,540 --> 00:54:01,709

next fight at three to 5 percent more

efficiently, because that's traditionally

00:54:01,710 --> 00:54:03,030

what government acquisitions does.

00:54:04,090 --> 00:54:04,590

Tim Winkler: That's great.

00:54:04,670 --> 00:54:09,460

Um, uh, awesome, uh, answers all

around you guys pass the flying colors.

00:54:09,710 --> 00:54:12,630

Uh, it's been, it's been a pleasure

having you both, uh, you know,

00:54:12,630 --> 00:54:14,149

share your experiences with us and.

00:54:14,580 --> 00:54:18,320

Um, I love the innovation that

you're, you're doing it for

00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:19,370

national security at large.

00:54:19,370 --> 00:54:23,170

It's, it's definitely inspiring and,

uh, grateful for your time and, uh,

00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:26,310

thank you for your service and I

appreciate you all joining us on the pod.

00:54:27,099 --> 00:54:27,289

Thanks.

00:54:27,470 --> 00:54:28,250

Thank you for having us on.

00:54:28,309 --> 00:54:28,619

Thanks.