In this episode of The Yappy Hour, host Nathan Dunleavy chats with Jay Gurden a dog behaviour expert, author, and founder of Good Guardianship, about how to truly support sensitive, complex, or "reactive" dogs.

Jay shares powerful advice on how to build trust, reduce stress, and avoid the trap of “fixing” behaviours. You’ll learn how to read subtle body language, help your dog decompress, and become the advocate your dog needs in a busy world.

Whether you're struggling with reactivity, over-arousal, fear-based behaviours, or just want to deepen your bond with your dog, this episode is full of practical tips and heartfelt reassurance.

Topics covered:

• What “reactive” really means and why we’re moving away from that label
• Why trust and choice matter so much in behaviour change
• How to handle setbacks and bad days
• Tools and mindset shifts that help guardians and dogs thrive
• Jay’s own experience with her sensitive dog, Finn

🎧 Grab a cuppa, settle in, and listen to this supportive, insightful episode that will leave you feeling empowered and understood.

For more episodes visit the Yappily pod page!

Welcome to the Yappy Hour, powered by

Yappily, the podcast for dog lovers

2

who want to better understand and

connect with their four-legged friends.

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I'm your host Nathan Dunlevy, and

today we are talking about something

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incredibly important, how to

support complex and sensitive dog.

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My guest is Jay Gurden, a leading

expert in dog behaviour, trust-based

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training and guardianship.

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Jay is the founder of Good Guardianship

and the author of Building the

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Bond, living in Harmony with your

dog, a bo, a book that focuses on

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understanding a strengthening the human.

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Dog relationship.

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In this episode, we'll explore what makes

some dogs more sensitive, the challenges

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their guardians face, and how we can

help them feel safer and more confident.

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If you've ever felt like your dog

struggles more than others, this

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episode is full of great insight,

reassurance, and practical advice.

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So grab a cup of tea, settle

in, and let's get started.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Welcome back to The Yappy

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Hour, powered by Yappily.

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I'm your host, Nathan Dunlevy, and

I'm so excited to bring you another

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episode of The Yappy Hour Today.

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Today's guest is Jay

Gurden, as I said, Gurden,

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Jay Gurden: you.

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I, I get that all

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Gurden.

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And oh my God, I was meant to ask

you that before we even started

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recording, and I didn't, and then

I've just spoke to myself, shit.

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I've not asked her how, if I'm

gonna pronounce her surname right.

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So Jay Gurden with a, with a U.

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I'm so excited to have Jay with us.

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She's a colleague of mine as well.

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We hang out in some similar groups and

admins and similar groups in the world

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of Facebook and yeah, I'm so excited

to have a chat to her this evening.

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Right.

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Without further ado, Jay,

welcome to the Yappy Hour.

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As I said, I'm so excited

to chat with you today.

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How are you doing?

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Jay Gurden: Hi.

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I think I'm really,

really pleased to be here.

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Really excited that you

asked me to come on.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yay.

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We've got, we've got over

the microphone thing.

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'cause I did have a silver microphone

and you sort of, you know, you took the

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mick a little bit, but I've managed,

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Jay Gurden: the silver one up there.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

I know loads of people.

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It was all the, it was like innuendo,

bingo going on when I posted a picture

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of myself on this big silver microphone.

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But I've gone for the black version.

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I don't even know if that's even

better or not, but Hey, hey.

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Great.

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So glad you're okay.

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So Jay, for those who might not be

familiar with your work, can you tell

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us a little bit about good guardianship?

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What led you to focus on complex

and sensitive dogs, please?

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Jay Gurden: Yeah, I mean the, the

concept behind good guardianship, it's,

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it's really about helping people and

their dogs to just have the best and

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strongest relationship they possibly can.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Jay Gurden: those of us who have spent

time learning about dogs, we have that

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fantastic relationship that we build

with our dogs, and I just wanna help

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as many people as possible to do that.

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That, that

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

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Jay Gurden: heart of what I do.

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With my little side shoot, obviously

of the complex dogs which is, it

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is a love, well, I say it's a love.

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I don't think any of us who live with

these dogs really love everything

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about it, but these dogs and

their people is definitely a love.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

yeah, definitely.

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And we are trying to get away

from the word reactive and

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inverted comm, aren't we?

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So we're using sort of words now

because reactive is such a broad term

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and I hate it because there's tons of

reasons why a dog could be reactive.

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So, you know, we're going with

sort of complex, sensitive, I

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even heard spicy the other day.

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I love spicy.

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Jay Gurden: I love that.

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And Andy Hale uses the term

socially sensitive, which I think

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just sums it up so brilliantly.

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I do use the word reactive sometimes,

but it's purely because that's

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the word that people tend to know.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Exactly.

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Yes.

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Jay Gurden: once they've sort of found

me, then I can start to say, well,

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actually, that that's not quite right.

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It's a labor and it's not

quite what's going on here.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Jay Gurden: And.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: So what

led you to set up your business then?

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Because you've got colleagues and

you've worked with colleagues.

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I know that.

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So what, how did tell our

listeners how you came, how it

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all sort of came together then?

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Jay Gurden: Well, my relationship

with Do Re I grew up on a farm

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and in my teen years started with

working She Dogs with Border Collies.

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The farm has now gone, but the

border Collies have remained

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and it was for my sins.

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It was one particular one of these dogs

who, you know, he came to us as a puppy,

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like, you know, many dogs before and

things just didn't go quite the same way.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Hmm.

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Jay Gurden: There were things

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Jay Gurden: with and at that point

I didn't know enough about those

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issues to be able to help him.

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So I was kind of, I was where a lot

of people are now when they realize

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something's wrong with their dog.

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But I was fortunate that I had the

luxury of being able to go and I turned

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myself into like a full-time dog student.

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I spent a

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

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Jay Gurden: of years where all

I did was learn about dogs.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Oh, really?

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Okay.

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Oh, brilliant.

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Yeah, because you, yeah, you now

tutor and you, you write books and all

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sorts now, so we can talk about that.

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Jay Gurden: stumbled on the Kine Reactive

behaviour course at Kine Principles.

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A friend of

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yes, yes, that's right.

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Jay Gurden: it just in a

strange sort of circle, I now

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tutor that course, which, yeah.

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That, that actually was a

fantastic moment for me when I

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was asked to tutor that course.

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And it's like,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Jay Gurden: you know?

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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That's amazing.

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I love that.

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Jay Gurden: and it, it's, the

tutoring also has kind of helped

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me to broaden out with trying to,

to help people sort of on my own,

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I'd call, you know, I am a behaviour

consultant, but I don't necessarily

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work in quite the same way as a lot.

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a

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Oh, okay.

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Jay Gurden: sort of

the education and just.

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It's, it's just that understanding.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

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Yeah, and that's good.

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I think it's important.

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I'm really big on education and,

you know, under, you know, helping

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people understand because you

don't know what you don't know.

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So if there's someone there that

can help, you know, with that.

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That's great.

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So we mentioned about your books.

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You are an author you've written several

books on building relationships with dogs.

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What inspired you to share

your knowledge through writing?

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Jay Gurden: initially, well,

the very first book that I

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wrote was one on Reactive Dogs.

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It's called the Reactive

Dog Guardians Handbook.

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Still triggers along

and cells now sometimes.

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And

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Okay.

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It.

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Jay Gurden: that because, I mean,

this was back before I started.

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I think I just started

with the tutoring then.

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And I hadn't writing, I had a blog

and my writing was sort of tending

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along the lines of working with

these sensitive dogs, but I wasn't

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so focused on working with them.

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As a professional at that point.

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And what I found was there was a lot

of advice on how to work with these

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dogs and, you know, with the counter

conditional desensitization and so on.

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there was almost nothing for

the human end of the lead.

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This was just before Janet

Finley's book came out, your

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

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Yeah, I've got that one.

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Yeah.

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Jay Gurden: you know, hers and mine

came out at a similar sort of time.

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Hers was much better.

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I've got a lot better

remitting since then.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Ah.

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Jay Gurden: But before that, there really

wasn't anything much for the people.

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So you have these poor people who things

are going wrong with their dogs, and it's

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm

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Jay Gurden: hard to be that

person on the end of that lead,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: mm.

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Jay Gurden: wasn't the

support there for them.

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So I just wanted to write

something just sort of to let

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people know you are not alone,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

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Yeah.

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Jay Gurden: okay to have these feelings.

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It's okay to be sad,

it's okay to be angry.

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It's okay to grieve the life

that you are expecting when you

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brought a dog into the family.

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But there are things

that we can do to help.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yeah, definitely.

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Yeah.

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And you've recently released

a new book, haven't you?

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Jay Gurden: Of last

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: it's

in, yes, it's in my Amazon basket.

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I'm, I'm barely there to get, I've got

all these, but I've seen yours behind me.

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I've now got a bookcase behind

me, nowhere near as big as yours.

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Got all these books I love, like

supporting other, you know, trainers and

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behaviourists and colleagues I work with

and yours in my basket, like saved because

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I want to get, I'll get your recent songs.

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I keep seeing people posting about it and

reading it and Andy mentioned it as well.

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Jay Gurden: He

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: so you,

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Jay Gurden: for it for

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yes.

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Yeah.

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That's amazing.

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So tell us a little bit, so

you've just released at the end

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of last year, building bonds.

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I don't wanna

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Jay Gurden: living in

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

yeah, I love that.

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Jay Gurden: It came out end of

September, beginning of October.

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So really not very long ago.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Jay Gurden: it's, it's looking at kind

of all of the aspects of our lives with

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dogs and what we can do in each of those

aspects to build a strong relationship.

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So it's looking at training.

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The focus of the book isn't on

training, but obviously it is a

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big part of our life with dogs.

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There's a section on that.

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There's play, there's sleep,

there's canine emotions,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Oh, okay.

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Jay Gurden: there's so many

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

There's lots.

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Jay Gurden: yeah, there's

a chapter on communication.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Jay Gurden: it's

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Love that.

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Jay Gurden: I did question my

sanity a few times writing it

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because it's such a big topic.

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It was really hard to organize

how I was going to write it,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I bet.

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Yeah.

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Jay Gurden: because everything else

I've written before that has been

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like focused on a single topic.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Okay.

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This is, yeah, lots of different things.

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Jay Gurden: that it, it's just,

okay, it's a single topic.

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It's living with

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I,

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Jay Gurden: but

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah,

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Jay Gurden: just not that simple, is it?

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: no.

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Jay Gurden: many aspects to it.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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So what was that number four, number five.

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Jay Gurden: Number five.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Number six on the way

or plans in the future.

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Jay Gurden: seven and eight are

in various, various stages of,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: 6, 7, 8.

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Jay Gurden: nine is also in the

planning, but that's a long-term project.

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That's gonna take me quite a while.

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That one, because,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

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Jay Gurden: of dog

terminology, so that is,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Okay.

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Jay Gurden: yeah.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Jay Gurden: of breaking down dog training

and behaviour jargon into slightly

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Jay Gurden: language so that

that one is taking a while.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I think

we might have to have a chat offline

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'cause I believe you do like a writer's

or an author's mentorship as well.

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Did you wanna just tell

our listeners about that?

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Jay Gurden: Yeah.

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Basically for anybody who, who wants

to be a do writer it's, we do a monthly

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one-to-one session, sort of talk

about your project, go through it.

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Yeah, if there are any questions while

writing, can be emailed or messaged.

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I'll proofread, give

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: okay.

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Jay Gurden: writing, basically

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Jay Gurden: first starting your

idea through to self-publishing

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because all mine is self-published.

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So

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: okay.

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Jay Gurden: anybody who

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

That's really interesting.

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Jay Gurden: then yeah, I run

a mental scheme for that.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yeah, we can obviously give your

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details at the end of the episode

for various you know, contact points

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for people wanting to get your books

and obviously your mentoring scheme.

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The only reason I say about that

is because of Mutual said the other

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day, Sally Gutridge said that I

should write a book, and nowhere in

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a million years did I, would I ever

say that I was ever gonna, that I,

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that I don't even think I could do it.

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There's no way I could write a book.

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And she's like, yes, you could.

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You can write a book.

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There's a book in you.

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You could write a book about

dog walking or like business

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mentoring to do a dog walking.

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Jay Gurden: I

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

And I have.

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Jay Gurden: that Sally is responsible for

my first one because I made the mistake

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of saying to Sally one day, oh, I think I

could write a book, and she said, do it.

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And then I said, I'm not going to.

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She said, yes, you are.

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So,

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

I knew she was responsible for you.

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So like, I thought I just, she sowed

the seed with me now, the little m and

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she said oh, you know, you could do it.

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And I was like, never in a

million years did I ever, wow.

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Do I ever want to write a, but, but maybe

one day there's, there's something there

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that, you know, that I could maybe do, but

I've got a quite a, an interest in life.

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I always feel like I should do like a

bit of an autobiography or something.

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But not only Sally, but I interviewed Dr.

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Conor Brady recently and he even

said to me that I, I, I've got

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a book in me and I should write.

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So even if,

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Jay Gurden: book.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: of,

if Connor, if Connor Brady and Sally

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Gutridge just saying it, then maybe it'll

have to go on the plan at some point and

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I'll be, I'll be hitting you up for help.

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Jay Gurden: No Escape now.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

No, that's it.

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I've committed.

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So moving on to our next

section then, which is great.

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So it is all about what makes

a dog complex in inverted or

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sensitive in inverted commas.

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So when we talk about complex or sensitive

dog, j what does that actually mean?

320

Jay Gurden: It, it kind of ties

back to that label of reactive,

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because the easiest way to describe

these dog dogs is they tend to be

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the ones they overreact to things.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm

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Jay Gurden: So it doesn't matter

whether these things bother us, whether

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we think they're scary, the problem

is that the dog is bothered by them.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: mm Yeah.

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Jay Gurden: on exactly what's

going on, what's caused it, the

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reactions can be kind of different.

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I mean, the, the stereotypical thing

that we tend to think of is the barking

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and lunging, you know, the sort of big

loud, very big feelings coming out, but

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it starts much more subtly than that.

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And.

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Part of my passion is trying

to help people to understand.

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I saw a great, great quote the other day

of listening to your dog when they whisper

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rather than when they have to shout.

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And I love that.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: that.

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Absolutely love that.

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Jay Gurden: just sums it

up because when you can

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: It does.

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Yeah.

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Jay Gurden: need to shout out.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Because

they give us so many signs, don't they?

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And if we sort of, if people like, like

what we go back to about education, if we

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understood and we read the dog in front

of us, learn a bit more about canine

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body language, they give us so many like

indications and like they give us so

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many warnings or so many, like ways of

telling us before they get to the point

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where they're having to bark all that.

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And it could be so subtle, but if we

just took time to understand that.

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Jay Gurden: Yeah.

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And also the fact that it's

slightly different for every dog.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Exactly.

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Got yes.

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Jay Gurden: my, my lad Finn,

love him to bit, he's the

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most gorgeous blue male Holly.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Jay Gurden: he's a lot

better now than he was.

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He used to be quite challenging.

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He's reactive to people, dogs.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

This the one you had to

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introduce to your other dog?

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Because you've got two, ain't you?

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So when I first met you, you were

into, there was like an introduction

364

period or something, is that right?

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Jay Gurden: my, my

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Jay Gurden: came along as a little

puffy and there was a lot of very,

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very careful management with playpens.

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And we actually fenced off

a section of the Gurdens.

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She could run up and down the fence,

one side and him and the other.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh wow.

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Jay Gurden: we didn't need that much

earlier than we did because she just

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sort of came around the fence, bopped him

on the nose and off they went playing.

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But yet, because of the way he

is we decided that a pucky was

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gonna be far easier for him to be

introduced to because, you know,

376

there's obviously not a threat there.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

it's like a blank canvas, isn't it?

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Of a puppy, hopefully.

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Jay Gurden: You've hit on

one of my pet hates there.

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I hate that saying.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh dear.

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Oh.

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Jay Gurden: Yes.

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Well, no, because it actually leads onto

a really good point of what actually

385

causes these in the first place.

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And it goes right back to genetics.

387

Genetics can play a

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

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Jay Gurden: So you know, this,

this happens like at conception,

390

so you'd hope that the puppy is

as blank accounts as possible, but

391

you always have to remember there's

elements there that can be an issue.

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

393

Like you say, from genetics and

hereditary traits and stuff and the,

394

you know, the dog, the, you know,

what the dog's bed for and stuff.

395

Jay Gurden: Finn is, he's a really

good example because he's like,

396

if you take all of the things that

we know can cause doc a doctor to

397

have issues, he's got all of them

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Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Okay.

399

Jay Gurden: because his mum was nervous.

400

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Right.

401

Jay Gurden: didn't think anything

of that at the time because, you

402

know, we'd been round dogs that

weren't that keen on people.

403

No, she was nervous.

404

Then when we got him home, he was unwell

during his socialization period and we

405

weren't able to take him out and about.

406

And then when he got better and

we started taking him back out

407

into the world, he got attacked.

408

So

409

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

410

Jay Gurden: about five months old then

when, when he was yeah, big mastiff bit

411

him and it kind of, it went from there.

412

It, it

413

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

414

Jay Gurden: three months

for it really to come out.

415

And that is something else

that could make it complicated.

416

There can be so much time between event

and the reaction's starting to come out.

417

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yeah, yeah,

418

Jay Gurden: can be really, really

hard to make that connection.

419

now

420

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

421

Jay Gurden: I know everything that

wasn't ideal from the start and

422

the things that I didn't do quite

right and, you know, all the things

423

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

424

Jay Gurden: differently

with Rogue, my young dog.

425

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

426

But I, I love how you you know, I'm all

about setting the dog up for success.

427

So, and being your dog superhero,

and that's what you've done for Finn.

428

You've advocated for him and you've

been his superhero because you've

429

put all this control and management

in place, you know, to, for him

430

and for the, the, the new puppy.

431

And that's really important, isn't there?

432

Jay Gurden: take a lot of management.

433

I mean, they're, they're

absolutely fine now.

434

She's, she's nearly two now, so

435

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

436

Jay Gurden: a while.

437

We did

438

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

439

Jay Gurden: a time before, a couple

of years before RO came along

440

where we tried to introduce another

puppy and it just didn't work.

441

And we

442

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Oh, okay.

443

Jay Gurden: the puppy had to go back to

his breeder because fin wasn't ready.

444

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Oh, okay.

445

Right.

446

Jay Gurden: point.

447

He needed

448

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Fair enough.

449

Jay Gurden: settle in himself.

450

So a couple of years RO came along and

yeah, they're, they're getting well.

451

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

452

But good for you for acknowledging

that though, and obviously saying

453

that it wasn't the right times.

454

The puppy went back to the breeder.

455

That's, that's really amazing.

456

Jay Gurden: it was awful.

457

'cause he was here for four

days and he was just the most

458

gorgeous, confident little dog.

459

And that was the problem.

460

was too

461

And in your face of Finn was rogue.

462

When I went to see her in her litter,

there were three puppies and one puppy

463

came and bounced all over the fence.

464

You know, come on, look

at me, come and fuss me.

465

Another

466

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

467

Jay Gurden: hid behind the kennel.

468

And I, my first thought

was, I'm not having you.

469

I've got one complicated dog.

470

I don't need another one right now.

471

And then there was this little dog, she

was the smallest puppy of the three, and

472

she just sat in the middle of the pen

and she looked me up and down, and then

473

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

474

Jay Gurden: me.

475

And that's just her attitude to life.

476

Is she, she's a thinker.

477

She thinks about things so she's not full

on and in your face, which is exactly

478

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Okay.

479

Yeah.

480

Jay Gurden: she, she will,

she'll go in and try and, and.

481

Instigate play.

482

She sort of goes in with all the teeth

waving round playfully and, and dabs

483

in with a paw, and then he does it and

he's about three times the size of us.

484

So

485

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

How old is Finn now?

486

Jay Gurden: Finn is eight?

487

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Right.

488

Okay.

489

It's a bit of a age difference, isn't it?

490

Yeah.

491

He is getting into senior years.

492

Jay Gurden: She's two in a couple weeks.

493

So we didn't

494

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh.

495

But it kind of keeps him young a bit.

496

Jay Gurden: long

497

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: probably

keeps him young a bit, doesn't it?

498

Jay Gurden: because he had

the problems with other dogs.

499

I mean, we did have another dog when we

got him, but Red was 12 when Finn came

500

along, and he really wasn't interested

in all these puppy shenanigans.

501

So Finn had kind of forgotten how to play

502

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Right.

503

Jay Gurden: You know,

playing with people is fine.

504

He, he didn't know how

to play with other dogs.

505

And he's actually, I mean, it looks

and sounds terrifying because there's

506

growling and teeth all over the

place, but that's just how they play.

507

They love it.

508

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

509

Yeah.

510

Jay Gurden: we just

511

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Good.

512

Jay Gurden: be guided by her.

513

If she keeps getting up and

going back for more, it's fine.

514

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

515

Yeah.

516

Jay Gurden: But yeah, it takes a lot

of management with one of these dogs.

517

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

518

Oh, okay.

519

And what I love as well, I meant to

say earlier, is that everyone I seem

520

to speak to, they all get into the

profession or the industry because of

521

their own sort of dog that they've,

522

Jay Gurden: Yeah.

523

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: wanna

say like, have issues with, but like,

524

well, it is because a lot of it, a lot

of the time is because they're, the dogs

525

sort of, you know, going through stuff.

526

And then that's made the owner,

the pet parent sort of then learn

527

more, and then they then decided

to get into it as a, as a a career.

528

You know, I've got my own essay dog.

529

He's got like chronic back pain, so then

he's sort of resource guards and he's

530

reactive and he's blessing, he's got essay

and stuff and like, you know, outta seven,

531

I haven't done too bad that it's got one

that's got his, you know, got his quacks

532

as I like to call it, is a special boy.

533

Jay Gurden: I tend

534

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: But

535

Jay Gurden: you know, the,

these dogs have actually led us.

536

They've needed us to learn something.

537

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

538

Jay Gurden: we've

539

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

540

Jay Gurden: that and sort of

discovered that other people

541

need help with those things.

542

So that's kind of how we go.

543

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: why

I, that's why I specialized in sa in

544

the end, in in lockdown because my

dog walking business had to close.

545

And I then retrained as a, a dog train and

literally did as many courses as I could.

546

And I then specialized in SA

and then I thought, well, you

547

know, it helps me understand him

more, but then I can help others.

548

And there was like, this

big boom wasn't then

549

Jay Gurden: Yeah,

550

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: with

people going back to work and stuff.

551

So, you know, I do love the SC work, but

552

Jay Gurden: boom with the learning too.

553

'cause I was tutoring

through lockdown and the,

554

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah,

555

Jay Gurden: it was like, it

556

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

everyone's just,

557

Jay Gurden: regular levels

of as assessments and all

558

of a sudden up it went.

559

'cause everyone had time.

560

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

yeah, they did.

561

Everyone was at home or Yeah.

562

More time to learn.

563

But that's good.

564

I'm glad that people were learning

stuff 'cause that's what we need.

565

So our next question, we have touched

on it a little bit, but these traits

566

is it something a dog is born with

or do they develop it over time?

567

Jay Gurden: some and some.

568

Obviously genetics the dog is born with

569

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

570

Jay Gurden: Also, you have epigenetics

that comes into play, which is where, you

571

know, there are things that can affect

gene expression, turn genes on and off.

572

And if you have a mom who is

stressed throughout a whole

573

pregnancy, that can have

574

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

575

Jay Gurden: on the puppies

before they're even born.

576

But there are also areas

that aren't set in stone.

577

Obviously the, the big thing

is like puppy socialization, so

578

getting them used to the world.

579

And also a lot of people have

a misunderstanding of what

580

socialization actually is.

581

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yeah, I know.

582

Jay Gurden: many people who think that

it's, you know, it's going a meeting and

583

interacting with everybody and every dog.

584

And in actual fact a lot of the time

with puppies and letting them watch

585

quietly from a distance and get

586

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

587

Jay Gurden: to things, it,

it is a better way to start.

588

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

589

Jay Gurden: Then we also have a.

590

The dogs who have bad experiences.

591

So the ones who are attacked

592

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Former, there's kind of sticks of him.

593

Jay Gurden: that's, then you end up

with what we call like single event

594

or one trial learning where one bad

experience, if it's severe enough,

595

can stay with that dog for life.

596

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Mm mm It's a shame, isn't it?

597

Jay Gurden: And

598

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

599

Jay Gurden: also an aspect

sometimes of, we know that

600

dogs, dogs are social animals.

601

They do social learning so

they can learn from others.

602

again, going

603

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

604

Jay Gurden: as an example, because Finn

has these issues of things that he's

605

worried with, we made sure that although

they both go out for a walk when it

606

was early in the morning and there was

nothing for Finn to worry about, about

607

in the day times where there were would

be people, dogs, cars, other animals

608

about that I would take Roget on her own.

609

So she got to

610

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm-hmm.

611

Jay Gurden: these things without worrying

about her seeing fin reacting and worrying

612

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm

613

Jay Gurden: she should worry about.

614

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: mm.

615

Jay Gurden: that is a, that's kind

of a slightly lesser element, but it

616

is something just to keep in mind,

617

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

618

Okay.

619

Brilliant.

620

So how can pet parents recognize if

they have a sensitive or complex dog?

621

Jay Gurden: it comes back to

what we were talking about

622

earlier on with body language.

623

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

624

Big in it.

625

Jay Gurden: it's taking the time to learn

the signs of stress and importantly,

626

learn what they look like in your dog.

627

So

628

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

629

Jay Gurden: what your dog looks

like at home, when they're relaxed

630

and happy, what they look like when

they're excited and playing, and

631

starting to see the signs of when

they're not comfortable with something.

632

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm,

633

Jay Gurden: Because especially in the

early stages, they will tell us a long

634

time before it gets to the reacting stage.

635

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

636

Jay Gurden: If those signs don't

work, they can start to not show those

637

anymore because they've not got them.

638

The, the, again, going back to Andy

Hale, he talked about the relief.

639

safety and

640

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

641

Jay Gurden: from the stress.

642

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

643

Jay Gurden: level of signals

haven't got the dog that relief.

644

So

645

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm,

646

Jay Gurden: something else that you see

a lot of the time is dogs do what works.

647

that

648

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yes.

649

Jay Gurden: works when it comes to stress.

650

You know, if a dog is in a

situation, they don't feel safe.

651

And that's essentially what it is.

652

This, this dog does not feel safe.

653

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm

654

Jay Gurden: they need

655

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

656

Jay Gurden: they need to get away

from that thing and they will

657

do what gets 'em that distance.

658

So

659

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

660

Jay Gurden: you know, whether that

is, that their, their guardian

661

will listen when they start to

show these more subtle signs, or

662

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

663

Jay Gurden: else fails the lunging and

barking, that's pretty much guaranteed

664

because we all then, you know, sort of

get hold of them and, and drag them away.

665

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

And this is the thing, isn't it?

666

It's those subtle signs like

we lip licking, yawning.

667

People recognize like the,

the vocalization with the

668

barking and the, the lunge.

669

But these subtle signs that you may,

you may miss, you may blink and miss it.

670

It's all those little things, isn't it?

671

That can, that's leading up to it.

672

Jay Gurden: But with Finn,

he will get very fixated.

673

He gets very vigilant

674

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

675

Hypervigilance.

676

Yeah.

677

Jay Gurden: a lot of

it depends on your dog.

678

He, is very, very food oriented.

679

He has the most food

680

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm,

681

Jay Gurden: Collie I've ever met.

682

He thinks he's a Labrador and a fat one.

683

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: love it.

684

Jay Gurden: So yeah, he, he would

eat 24 hours a day if he could.

685

So for him not to be able to take food

is a clear sign that he's stressed.

686

But it

687

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Okay.

688

Yeah.

689

Jay Gurden: than that.

690

If he's starting to worry about

something but still isn't at a

691

point where he has to overtly react,

he will start to snatch treats.

692

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Hmm.

693

Interesting.

694

Jay Gurden: to what his inner level is.

695

If he starts to

696

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm-hmm.

697

Jay Gurden: need more distance.

698

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

699

Jay Gurden: But

700

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

701

Jay Gurden: really, really different

to a lot of of sensitive dogs because

702

often see the advice of, you know,

don't ask them to sit, whereas

703

he will sit and watch something.

704

That's just

705

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Okay.

706

Jay Gurden: it.

707

And

708

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

709

Jay Gurden: your own dog, their

communication, their preferences,

710

their needs is central.

711

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yeah, that's what I was gonna

712

say is that obviously you've

gotta work with a dog in front.

713

'cause every dog in breed's

different, aren't they?

714

So what your dog does is probably

different to my toy poodle or

715

Jay Gurden: Yeah.

716

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

know, you've gotta learn.

717

Jay Gurden: border colleagues.

718

We actually, we had mother and daughter at

one point, and you could not have got two

719

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh

720

Jay Gurden: dogs.

721

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

722

Jay Gurden: was really intelligent,

didn't really care about people.

723

Daughter loved people, not two

brain cells to rub together.

724

She was the sweetest little

dog, but she just, there were

725

she had an original thought in her life.

726

Bless her.

727

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

728

Jay Gurden: dog for closeup work.

729

'cause she just did whatever

you asked her to, but

730

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

731

Jay Gurden: that required her to think.

732

She wasn't so hot on that.

733

Bless her.

734

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

735

Yeah, I've got a mother and daughter

but they're quite similar actually.

736

It's interesting.

737

But and also talking about like

this ladder of aggression and this

738

escalation pyramid, that's some of the

signs, like the, the lip licking, the

739

blinking and you know, it can go up and

up and then it gets to like a growl.

740

But we often hear about sort

of over arousal, don't we?

741

And over threshold.

742

So that's when the dog can make a

negative or positive choice, isn't it?

743

If they've got to that point.

744

Jay Gurden: Yeah.

745

I mean, if you think about arousal

levels, everything that, we are doing.

746

Will affect arousal levels.

747

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Mm, that bucket fill into that.

748

Jay Gurden: yet

749

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

750

Jay Gurden: is a great way to describe it.

751

I will often use spoon theory, so,

752

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

heard of spoon theory.

753

What's that one?

754

Jay Gurden: you start, start the day and

you have a certain number of spoons to

755

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Oh, okay.

756

Jay Gurden: Okay.

757

And

758

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

759

Jay Gurden: maybe getting

up, having a shower, getting

760

dressed, that uses two spoons.

761

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

762

Jay Gurden: argument with somebody

in the street that uses three

763

spoons and you get to the end of

the day and you've run out spoons.

764

So that's, you can, you know,

you just can't take anymore, and

765

that's when you go over threshold.

766

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

767

You blow

768

Jay Gurden: Yeah.

769

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

was hearings too.

770

Jay Gurden: The other way I

used to describe it that I, I've

771

written in my books is to describe

a, a supermarket shopping trip

772

where, you know, you have the one

773

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Okay.

774

Jay Gurden: straight to the supermarket,

into the carpark, into the shop round.

775

The shop you are in the queue, someone

cuts in front of you and you know, it's a

776

bit annoying, but you know, no big deal.

777

Then you

778

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

779

Jay Gurden: and you walk out the front

door and your car's got a flat tire.

780

Every traffic

781

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

782

Jay Gurden: on the way to

the supermarket is red.

783

You get to the, the car park and the only

space left is right over the far side

784

of the car park next to the idiot who

can't park straight into the supermarket.

785

And you've got one of those

trolleys with the wonky wheel.

786

So as you're going round, you know,

your neck hurts, your back hurts.

787

You just wanna get on, you wanna get done.

788

And then this person cuts you up

in the queue and they turn around

789

and give you this big SM grin.

790

And it's

791

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh,

792

Jay Gurden: And anybody that looks all

of that, it's just gonna say that you

793

went off out nowhere and it wasn't,

it's all those little things building up

794

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

up to it, isn't it?

795

Yeah.

796

Jay Gurden: And it's

exactly the same with dogs.

797

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Like a volcano erupting.

798

Jay Gurden: Oh, you've, you've

seen me supermarket shopping there.

799

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Oh my God.

800

I hate supermarket.

801

I don't go, I make my husband go, so

802

Jay Gurden: I

803

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

I can't stand it.

804

Jay Gurden: We get it.

805

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Wow.

806

We used to do that.

807

We used to do that, but he got fed up

with a bloody date, so he has to go now.

808

But he does park as far away as he

can 'cause he's so precious about his

809

bloody car, so he parks the furs away.

810

Jay Gurden: that

811

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Right.

812

And the f and the funniest Wow.

813

Frustrating for him.

814

Funny thing for me is that be all

these other spaces and then a car

815

would would've parked right next

to him and he loses his shit.

816

But yeah, but the point of this is, is

that the dogs can hit their threshold and

817

then they can sort of react and, you know,

go over a threshold and over aroused.

818

And that's when they then

sort of do the barking.

819

In lung.

820

It's important to identify the signs

through your dog before they get to that,

821

Jay Gurden: it's important to

822

That things that have happened at

the previous couple of days can

823

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Exactly.

824

It can build up, it takes about 48

hours for, well, 70, is it 72 hours?

825

My mind's gone back for

arousal levels to decrease or

826

Jay Gurden: up to 72.

827

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

again, dog dependent.

828

Yeah.

829

Jay Gurden: Absolutely.

830

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

831

And you could be adding to this bucket

and there's still, that's why I like

832

to say to people, like, if something's

happened the next day, you just need

833

to have a day off from walking and

do some brain games, sniffy games.

834

'cause you just need to give

them chance to decompress.

835

Jay Gurden: yeah.

836

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

837

Jay Gurden: such an

important part of the process

838

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Yeah, definitely.

839

Jay Gurden: trying to work on their

relationship with the things that

840

bother them, without that decompression,

you're just, you're not giving either

841

you or them a chance for success.

842

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Well, they can't learn can of when

843

they're in that heightened state

of arousal and stress and that.

844

Jay Gurden: that's the ability to learn.

845

Just go.

846

If you think about it, this

is them in survival mode

847

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

848

Jay Gurden: this thing bothers

them so much or you know, this, of

849

these things together have bothered

them so much that they're just in,

850

they're literally in fight or flight

851

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

852

Jay Gurden: it, you

853

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

854

Jay Gurden: just, they're just

trying to survive the situation.

855

It doesn't matter that in actual

fact, it's a bin bag, it's fine.

856

It's not gonna eat them.

857

It really can you tell,

I used to ride horses.

858

It really doesn't matter.

859

Well, in actual fact, there

was one occasion with Finn

860

where I was walking him.

861

It's four 30 in the morning

and he just stopped one day and

862

would not walk along the path.

863

And we actually

864

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Sorry.

865

Four 30 in the morning.

866

Fly me.

867

Jay Gurden: that's when I used to

walk him, because it was the only

868

time I could walk him without stress.

869

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

870

Jay Gurden: But the,

871

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

The things we do for our dogs.

872

Jay Gurden: yeah, definitely.

873

Especially when it's like November.

874

That wasn't fun.

875

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Ooh.

876

Ooh.

877

Jay Gurden: The only way he would

go forward was he'd make a big

878

semicircle and I couldn't work

out what on earth was going on.

879

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

880

Jay Gurden: and looked back,

someone had left their bin six

881

feet away from its normal position.

882

And because dogs are so context

sensitive, they, they, they see so

883

much more of their environment than

we would notice that to him was wrong.

884

So

885

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Okay.

886

Jay Gurden: was danger

887

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

888

Oh, bless him.

889

Jay Gurden: so bad now.

890

And if, if Rose says anything

like that, she just barks at it.

891

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Right.

892

Jay Gurden: She

893

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

There's no, is is there, is there still

894

4, 5, 4 30 gis or have you managed to

895

Jay Gurden: No, no,

896

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

get a few lions now?

897

Jay Gurden: will do early walk walks

that just 'cause that suits him.

898

It j

899

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

900

Yeah.

901

Jay Gurden: it

902

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: And

he works nights as well, doesn't he?

903

So,

904

Jay Gurden: Yeah.

905

Or you know, like early

starts so it, it suits

906

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

907

Jay Gurden: walk early.

908

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

It's nice.

909

You'd have to bump into anyone.

910

I think I prefer it as well.

911

I just,

912

Jay Gurden: the other thing we do

is we, we go to places where there's

913

just like masses and masses of space.

914

So, you know, we are quite lucky

that it takes us a couple of hours

915

to get there, but we can actually

go to Salibury plane and Okay.

916

You have to occasionally

917

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Oh, yes, I know.

918

Jay Gurden: which can be

interesting when they emerge out

919

of the grass in front of you.

920

But know, it's just somewhere with

lots of space and really good eye

921

lines so you can see anybody and in

a different direction if you need to.

922

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

923

Jay Gurden: a lot, lot better now we

can sort of pass somebody like the other

924

side of the road without too much hassle.

925

He might

926

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

that's good.

927

Jay Gurden: snort at them, but.

928

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

It's not,

929

Jay Gurden: Oh, he

930

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: it's not

931

Jay Gurden: and

932

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: too bad.

933

Jay Gurden: and yeah

934

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: so,

oh God, I lost my train of thought.

935

I was gonna say something then.

936

Right.

937

Okay.

938

Let's move on to our next

question in this section then.

939

And so how can pet parents recognize if

they have a sensitive or complex dog?

940

Jay Gurden: again, we're going

back to that body language

941

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Oh, that's what I was gonna say.

942

Being a dog detective.

943

Yes.

944

Body language.

945

Jay Gurden: yes.

946

Sarah Fisher came up with that, wasn't it?

947

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

948

Yes,

949

Jay Gurden: brilliant.

950

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

I think so.

951

Jay Gurden: ace free work for, for

Sensitive Dogs is just amazing.

952

It's absolutely

953

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

954

Jay Gurden: and it fits in really

well in the decompression stage.

955

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

956

Jay Gurden: but yeah, that, that's

largely what it comes down to.

957

When you've spent time studying your dog

and learning about sort of the language,

958

you can see like really little subtle

signs like their whiskers flaring.

959

You know, is is it's like

a, an early stage sign that

960

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I've

961

Jay Gurden: checking

962

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

never even thought of that before.

963

My God, that's so interesting.

964

Jay Gurden: My, my young girl, she's,

she's got sort of very luxurious whiskers.

965

They're all sort of very bright

white and she can really see,

966

'cause the, the basin's dark.

967

So you can really kind of see when

she's got them flared forward.

968

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh,

969

Jay Gurden: Yeah.

970

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

you have to hear about cats having

971

like quite prominent whiskers.

972

But I've never thought

about my dog's Whiskers.

973

I'm gonna be looking at 'em now.

974

Jay Gurden: if you think, Joe, we

know that one of the early signs of

975

stress is like tension in the lips.

976

And then if you also

977

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

978

Jay Gurden: of whiskers, it's just,

you know, it's like a sensory thing.

979

It makes sense

980

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

981

Jay Gurden: kind of out and ready.

982

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

983

Jay Gurden: So yeah, that, that

is, that is is a sign that I'll

984

use quite often with my guys.

985

The vigilance thing is a really good

thing to look for if you know, if

986

they seem to be looking for something

listening, staring in, in a direction,

987

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

988

Heckers can go out, can't they?

989

Like pile erection

990

Jay Gurden: yeah,

991

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

and all that sort of stuff?

992

Jay Gurden: yeah.

993

Which with Rogue is hilarious

'cause she can only get them

994

on her shoulders and her bum.

995

it.

996

That's all.

997

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

998

Jay Gurden: has these

999

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

These little Tufts.

00:35:45,762 --> 00:35:45,912

Yeah.

00:35:45,912 --> 00:35:49,392

So it's all about like, I'm

really big on sort of pet parents

00:35:49,392 --> 00:35:51,162

and people working with dogs.

00:35:51,192 --> 00:35:54,762

You know, just learn understanding,

learn canine body language.

00:35:55,002 --> 00:35:55,512

Really?

00:35:55,725 --> 00:35:58,005

Jay Gurden: of the areas I tell people

to look at most, because it's one of

00:35:58,005 --> 00:35:59,565

the easiest bits to see is the tail.

00:36:00,525 --> 00:36:00,915

So if you

00:36:00,942 --> 00:36:01,782

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yes.

00:36:01,845 --> 00:36:03,975

Jay Gurden: naturally carries

their tail, so like with my

00:36:04,032 --> 00:36:04,752

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

00:36:04,785 --> 00:36:06,585

Jay Gurden: tend to be down like that, or

00:36:06,702 --> 00:36:07,242

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

00:36:07,245 --> 00:36:08,570

Jay Gurden: up is when the, like the

00:36:08,772 --> 00:36:09,282

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah,

00:36:09,585 --> 00:36:10,605

Jay Gurden: levels are starting to go up.

00:36:10,635 --> 00:36:14,385

And with thin, if it goes above

level with his back, it's time to

00:36:14,472 --> 00:36:15,012

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah,

00:36:15,165 --> 00:36:15,405

Jay Gurden: out.

00:36:16,842 --> 00:36:17,112

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yeah.

00:36:17,112 --> 00:36:18,552

I was chatting to my friends that weekend.

00:36:18,552 --> 00:36:20,142

They have a rescue from Romanian.

00:36:20,142 --> 00:36:25,992

They said that they have towel, literally

tucks so far under as far as it can go.

00:36:25,992 --> 00:36:26,082

And

00:36:26,565 --> 00:36:26,805

Jay Gurden: Yeah,

00:36:26,922 --> 00:36:28,542

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

that's a interesting sign.

00:36:28,665 --> 00:36:28,995

Jay Gurden: yeah,

00:36:29,352 --> 00:36:29,922

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm-hmm.

00:36:29,975 --> 00:36:31,785

Jay Gurden: it's one of those ones

where it's really important to

00:36:31,785 --> 00:36:33,495

understand your individual dog.

00:36:33,495 --> 00:36:36,315

'cause obviously like, say something

like a Whippet or a Greyhound where

00:36:36,315 --> 00:36:38,325

they tend to carry their tails very low.

00:36:39,015 --> 00:36:42,345

other breeds that could

be a sign of extreme fear,

00:36:43,317 --> 00:36:43,737

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm-hmm.

00:36:43,905 --> 00:36:44,445

Jay Gurden: whereas for,

00:36:44,562 --> 00:36:45,072

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

00:36:45,345 --> 00:36:46,965

Jay Gurden: or whip it,

it's their natural position.

00:36:46,965 --> 00:36:50,295

But for them it would come almost up

and up, touch the tummy underneath.

00:36:50,295 --> 00:36:50,595

So

00:36:50,922 --> 00:36:51,642

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

That's right.

00:36:51,645 --> 00:36:55,965

Jay Gurden: really important to understand

your breed or type of dog and your

00:36:56,362 --> 00:36:56,772

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

00:36:57,135 --> 00:36:59,985

Jay Gurden: And obviously it gets

complicated when you have like the dogs

00:36:59,985 --> 00:37:01,905

who've had got no tails, whether they're

00:37:02,052 --> 00:37:03,582

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: I

was about, I was literally thinking

00:37:03,582 --> 00:37:06,102

that, thinking that as we were

talking towels, like do towels.

00:37:06,102 --> 00:37:06,882

It's hard, doesn't it?

00:37:07,065 --> 00:37:07,635

Mm,

00:37:07,789 --> 00:37:09,679

Jay Gurden: kind of look

at the, the muscles.

00:37:10,489 --> 00:37:10,549

the

00:37:10,755 --> 00:37:11,625

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: yes.

00:37:11,659 --> 00:37:12,199

Jay Gurden: Similar with

00:37:12,230 --> 00:37:12,520

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

00:37:12,739 --> 00:37:14,599

Jay Gurden: obviously ear

movements are much easier to see

00:37:14,599 --> 00:37:16,009

in dogs who've got pricked ears.

00:37:16,549 --> 00:37:18,829

But if you've got dogs that have

long ears, if you look at the base

00:37:18,829 --> 00:37:21,979

of the ear, you can with practice,

see how the muscles are moving to

00:37:21,979 --> 00:37:23,269

see if they've gone forward or back.

00:37:23,509 --> 00:37:24,289

'cause those

00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:25,080

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Interesting.

00:37:25,339 --> 00:37:26,779

Jay Gurden: in in the similar sort of way,

00:37:27,660 --> 00:37:28,290

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm.

00:37:28,339 --> 00:37:29,239

Jay Gurden: quite so easy to see.

00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:32,250

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

My chihuahua ears are very

00:37:32,250 --> 00:37:33,435

different to my poodle ears.

00:37:33,864 --> 00:37:34,154

Jay Gurden: Yeah,

00:37:34,455 --> 00:37:34,675

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: You

00:37:35,244 --> 00:37:35,534

Jay Gurden: yeah.

00:37:35,670 --> 00:37:37,260

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: know,

chihuahuas like this and they go round.

00:37:37,260 --> 00:37:41,340

And then the poodles obviously

all long and brilliant.

00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:45,570

Moving on to our next section, which is

all about challenges and misconceptions

00:37:45,810 --> 00:37:48,450

about our sensitive and complex dogs.

00:37:48,820 --> 00:37:52,330

Many owners of sensitive or

complex dogs feel like they're

00:37:52,330 --> 00:37:54,190

failing or not doing enough.

00:37:54,580 --> 00:37:56,770

What would you say to them in that case?

00:37:58,109 --> 00:37:59,039

Jay Gurden: Absolutely not.

00:38:00,029 --> 00:38:00,389

You know,

00:38:00,610 --> 00:38:01,060

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Hmm mm

00:38:01,679 --> 00:38:04,469

Jay Gurden: it's really hard to be

the person with one of these dogs.

00:38:05,155 --> 00:38:05,375

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: mm.

00:38:05,474 --> 00:38:07,754

Jay Gurden: stand there on the

end of the lead and have, there's,

00:38:07,814 --> 00:38:10,964

there's this expectation in society

of dogs behaving a certain way.

00:38:12,044 --> 00:38:15,554

You know, dogs should be

able to go everywhere, do

00:38:15,875 --> 00:38:16,255

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

00:38:16,454 --> 00:38:17,534

Jay Gurden: know, with no trouble at all.

00:38:18,704 --> 00:38:22,004

In my life with dogs, I've

had one dog like that, one dog

00:38:22,045 --> 00:38:22,465

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

00:38:22,470 --> 00:38:22,675

I,

00:38:22,904 --> 00:38:26,204

Jay Gurden: anywhere I've

fallen in my un one dog and I'll

00:38:26,294 --> 00:38:27,494

probably never have another,

00:38:28,615 --> 00:38:29,035

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: why?

00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:29,370

Okay.

00:38:29,984 --> 00:38:32,984

Jay Gurden: those sorts of dogs

are actually really incredibly rare

00:38:33,955 --> 00:38:34,555

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm,

00:38:34,784 --> 00:38:38,774

Jay Gurden: because there's so, society's

understanding of what a dog should be

00:38:39,014 --> 00:38:41,174

is not actually the reality of the dog.

00:38:41,485 --> 00:38:43,165

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

I know it's frustrating as well.

00:38:43,555 --> 00:38:43,765

Mm.

00:38:44,095 --> 00:38:49,585

Do you think since lockdown we, we are

seeing more like are we seeing it more

00:38:49,585 --> 00:38:54,205

like dogs with sort of, I don't wanna

say issues, but dogs with sensitivities?

00:38:54,505 --> 00:38:56,305

Dogs that are, yeah.

00:38:56,305 --> 00:38:57,295

Dogs in child, that's the word.

00:38:57,295 --> 00:38:58,195

I couldn't get my words out.

00:38:58,195 --> 00:39:00,775

Are we seeing that more

since lockdown, do you think?

00:39:00,794 --> 00:39:01,274

Jay Gurden: so.

00:39:01,274 --> 00:39:05,344

I mean, obviously there was that huge

boom in people getting dogs in lockdown

00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:06,560

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Hmm

00:39:06,574 --> 00:39:10,024

Jay Gurden: and especially puppies

who joined their families in lockdown.

00:39:10,024 --> 00:39:10,954

They missed out and lot that

00:39:10,965 --> 00:39:11,325

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: hmm.

00:39:12,075 --> 00:39:12,315

Yeah.

00:39:12,315 --> 00:39:14,115

That key socialization period.

00:39:14,164 --> 00:39:15,934

Jay Gurden: I mean, you know,

those, those first weeks up to

00:39:15,934 --> 00:39:17,434

sort of about 12, 13 weeks old are

00:39:17,805 --> 00:39:18,495

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

That's it.

00:39:19,845 --> 00:39:20,475

Hmm.

00:39:20,794 --> 00:39:23,494

Jay Gurden: puppies, you know,

even if they were being able to go

00:39:23,494 --> 00:39:27,574

out for walks, they weren't seeing

as much as they would normally.

00:39:28,324 --> 00:39:33,274

So that does make you, some dogs will come

through that and be relatively unscathed.

00:39:34,144 --> 00:39:35,074

dogs will struggle.

00:39:36,010 --> 00:39:36,300

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

00:39:36,305 --> 00:39:36,405

Yeah.

00:39:36,634 --> 00:39:40,414

Jay Gurden: And I think possibly

also in that time, a lot of,

00:39:40,804 --> 00:39:43,984

a lot more first dog parents.

00:39:45,230 --> 00:39:45,520

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

00:39:45,690 --> 00:39:46,400

There was a lot.

00:39:46,470 --> 00:39:46,760

Yeah.

00:39:46,765 --> 00:39:48,405

Mm-hmm.

00:39:49,129 --> 00:39:51,919

Jay Gurden: They maybe would've wanted a

dog for a while, but felt like they, they

00:39:51,919 --> 00:39:53,599

couldn't because of responsibilities.

00:39:53,599 --> 00:39:55,759

Well, you know, we've got all this

time that we are gonna be at home.

00:39:55,849 --> 00:39:56,779

We're gonna be working from

00:39:56,865 --> 00:39:57,465

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

00:39:57,534 --> 00:39:58,609

Jay Gurden: let's, let's have a dog.

00:39:59,655 --> 00:40:01,095

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: And

then they didn't realize when they

00:40:01,095 --> 00:40:04,125

were starting to return back to the

office how that dog was gonna cope.

00:40:04,129 --> 00:40:06,139

Jay Gurden: because I'm sure you probably

see that as well in your, your SA

00:40:06,165 --> 00:40:06,465

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

00:40:06,739 --> 00:40:07,069

Jay Gurden: Yeah.

00:40:07,069 --> 00:40:10,189

It, it, you know, the two sort

of really tied together with that

00:40:11,325 --> 00:40:12,795

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Well, mark and my husband really

00:40:12,795 --> 00:40:17,025

blames himself or us because he was

furloughed for so long in lockdown.

00:40:17,025 --> 00:40:21,585

He says that's why Bailey got sa, but you

know, it's obviously genetics as well,

00:40:21,585 --> 00:40:26,205

but he's the only one out of the four toys

that have got it, luckily, but you know.

00:40:26,299 --> 00:40:29,749

Jay Gurden: sometimes it's just hard to

pinpoint, you know, I'm, I'm kind, kind

00:40:29,749 --> 00:40:33,619

of quite fortunate with Finn in that I can

pinpoint the different bits that went into

00:40:33,619 --> 00:40:36,229

it, which one of them had the most impact.

00:40:37,009 --> 00:40:37,549

way of knowing.

00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:38,820

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm-hmm.

00:40:39,019 --> 00:40:40,489

Jay Gurden: and, and

that is often the case.

00:40:40,759 --> 00:40:44,119

I think also, I, I have a

bone to pick with Disney.

00:40:45,154 --> 00:40:45,304

they

00:40:45,465 --> 00:40:46,045

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Oh, okay.

00:40:47,284 --> 00:40:47,524

Jay Gurden: hot

00:40:47,700 --> 00:40:50,280

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Disney,

they, they got a lot to answer for.

00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:50,610

They have.

00:40:51,064 --> 00:40:57,784

Jay Gurden: But it's just kind of all

of these, these, these sort of cartoons

00:40:57,784 --> 00:41:01,504

and programs and fictional things

that make having a dog seem so easy.

00:41:01,504 --> 00:41:01,744

You know?

00:41:01,984 --> 00:41:03,154

Oh, having a dog's, no problem.

00:41:03,184 --> 00:41:04,144

Anyone can do it.

00:41:04,174 --> 00:41:04,354

You know?

00:41:04,354 --> 00:41:05,044

It's easy to

00:41:05,055 --> 00:41:05,475

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm-hmm.

00:41:05,554 --> 00:41:05,764

Jay Gurden: it's not,

00:41:07,145 --> 00:41:07,565

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm-hmm.

00:41:07,624 --> 00:41:12,814

Jay Gurden: really isn't to just sort

of be a responsible dog guardian.

00:41:12,874 --> 00:41:17,434

There's a lot to think about and yeah.

00:41:17,434 --> 00:41:21,484

And that, that's just with a dog who

doesn't struggle with aspects of life.

00:41:22,375 --> 00:41:22,795

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Mm-hmm.

00:41:22,834 --> 00:41:23,974

Jay Gurden: there are a lot

of people that don't do that.

00:41:24,004 --> 00:41:25,834

'cause we all know that

he's friendly brigade,

00:41:26,715 --> 00:41:27,295

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh God.

00:41:27,394 --> 00:41:27,874

Jay Gurden: yeah,

00:41:28,125 --> 00:41:28,415

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

00:41:28,474 --> 00:41:29,524

Jay Gurden: won't go down that route.

00:41:29,595 --> 00:41:30,690

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

If I had, yeah, I was gonna say,

00:41:30,690 --> 00:41:32,730

if I had a, every time I'd hear

that I'd be a million there.

00:41:33,994 --> 00:41:34,054

Jay Gurden: Yeah.

00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:36,570

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

00:41:36,784 --> 00:41:38,464

Jay Gurden: not connected

to sensitive dogs.

00:41:38,464 --> 00:41:42,604

But my sort of funny anecdote with

that was I was out at one point with my

00:41:42,604 --> 00:41:45,754

previous dog my uniform dog had him out.

00:41:45,884 --> 00:41:51,104

He was on lead 'cause we were walking

through this, this sort of busy bit of

00:41:51,194 --> 00:41:53,324

bridal path before we got to the field.

00:41:54,349 --> 00:41:59,114

And this black Labrador turned up, you

know, running loose, no sign of her

00:41:59,145 --> 00:41:59,725

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

As you do.

00:42:00,734 --> 00:42:03,404

Jay Gurden: And she was getting very

excited and sort of jumping around

00:42:03,404 --> 00:42:07,094

red and he wasn't taking any notice

'cause he just, his thing was, hello.

00:42:07,124 --> 00:42:08,294

Okay, I'm gonna go sniff over here.

00:42:09,884 --> 00:42:15,224

And it was a good 10 minutes before this

person turned up and, oh, there you are.

00:42:15,370 --> 00:42:16,000

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Really?

00:42:16,124 --> 00:42:16,904

Jay Gurden: aren't you a funny girl?

00:42:17,744 --> 00:42:17,954

And

00:42:18,100 --> 00:42:18,430

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: gosh.

00:42:18,824 --> 00:42:21,974

Jay Gurden: this, this Labrador was

trying to almost reverse under my dog.

00:42:24,130 --> 00:42:26,050

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh gosh.

00:42:29,249 --> 00:42:30,119

Jay Gurden: So I said

00:42:30,125 --> 00:42:30,345

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh.

00:42:30,389 --> 00:42:33,389

Jay Gurden: woman, probably ought

to tell you that my dog is in fact

00:42:33,449 --> 00:42:38,609

entire, and she then kicked off

at me about how irresponsible I

00:42:38,609 --> 00:42:41,009

was to be out with an unrated dog.

00:42:41,339 --> 00:42:42,659

He was on the lead.

00:42:43,529 --> 00:42:44,039

She had

00:42:44,095 --> 00:42:45,025

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

Oh my word.

00:42:45,299 --> 00:42:49,799

Jay Gurden: absolutely ragingly

standing in season bitch out

00:42:49,799 --> 00:42:51,149

of her sight for 10 minutes.

00:42:51,539 --> 00:42:53,069

But I was the irresponsible one.

00:42:53,395 --> 00:42:54,235

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

God knows what could have

00:42:54,235 --> 00:42:55,645

happened in that 10 minutes.

00:42:55,645 --> 00:42:57,640

They can tie and it can be over in 10.

00:42:58,439 --> 00:43:01,139

Jay Gurden: Fortunately Red had

absolutely no idea what it was for.

00:43:01,885 --> 00:43:02,545

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

00:43:03,419 --> 00:43:04,829

Jay Gurden: absolutely not a

00:43:05,005 --> 00:43:07,195

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour:

some people honestly.

00:43:07,829 --> 00:43:08,129

Jay Gurden: So that's

00:43:08,245 --> 00:43:08,335

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Oh,

00:43:08,429 --> 00:43:11,819

Jay Gurden: extreme anecdote of, of the,

the sort of the, he's friendly people.

00:43:12,835 --> 00:43:13,165

Nathan Dunleavy - The Yappy Hour: Yeah.

00:43:13,165 --> 00:43:13,855

The friendly brigade.

00:43:14,155 --> 00:43:17,905

So what would you say are some of the

common mistakes pet parents make when

00:43:17,905 --> 00:43:20,125

trying to help and invite commas?

00:43:20,125 --> 00:43:21,925

Their sensitive or complex dog?