Jay sits down with Kayla Stoecklein to hear a story from the other side of suicide. Jay and Kayla discuss the loss of her husband, the stigma around mental health in the church, and ways to help those struggling with suicidal thoughts.

Suicide Hotline- 1-800-273-8255 or 988

Fear Gone Wild- available on Amazon

Rebuilding Beautiful- Releases September 20th, 2022. Available everywhere books are sold, preorder on Amazon today.

Instagram- @kaylasteck

Website- kaylastoecklein.com

Entertained living or

welcome to this week's edition of taboo.

Talk with Jay louder today, we have a, a very special.

that has an amazing story.

She's having a huge impact on a lot of people.

She's written an incredible book, has another book coming out and she and

her boys have gone through something that a lot of people would not have

expected in lieu of the, the calling in profession that her husband had.

And man, just thank God for her and, and how she's being used.

Kayla, welcome to today's podcast.

Jay.

Thanks so much for having me.

It's an honor to be here.

Well, I just love the fact that, I mean, I, I'm not, I'm not gonna say in

some ways I, I do relate because obviously I have battled a similar struggle, but

in other ways I don't relate because the pain that the, the difficulty that

you've gone through is just unimaginable.

And sadly, there are people all over the world that, that, that.

That are, or that will be going through some of the same things

that you have gone through.

And I've met them all over the world because of telling my own story.

It's a common denominator of something that, that I, I hear often

I'm sure that many of our listeners will be familiar with your name.

Some of 'em I'm sure have read your book, which I'll be talking about

later on in this podcast, but Kayla, if you would, rather than me giving

you the lengthy introduction and, and telling your story, if you.

Just to kind of set the table for our listeners.

Would you kind of tell them a little bit just about you about your family

and and then we'll kind of move on from.

Sure.

So I am a former pastor's wife.

My husband, Andrew led our church inland church.

For almost four years, his dad had started the church when he was three

years old, he had grown up in it.

He was a PK.

He loved it.

He felt called to ministry in college.

We met and fell in love.

Quickly in college were married.

Super young.

I was 21.

He was 22, started a family right away and jumped right into ministry.

And it was a, it was a rough go from the beginning about a year into our marriage.

His dad was diagnosed with leukemia and it really rattled our

church community and rattled our.

Family.

And my husband stepped up to the plate in a million different ways.

And throughout the four year journey of leukemia, he was eventually handed the

Baton of leadership and became the lead pastor of the church at a very young age.

I think he was like 26 years old and we were starting a family.

We had two boys at the time and a third boy on the way.

So life at home was full life at work was very full.

And then just a few months later that year in 2015, In October of

two 15, and his dad passed away and Andrew's heart was for the church.

He loved the church so much.

He felt compelled to lead them through his grief, through their grief.

So kinda pushed his grief to the wayside and returned just a few weeks later.

And.

An incredible series on heaven.

And I just sat back in amazement of him.

You know, my, my role was to support him and to love him

and to care for our family.

I was a be at home mom, caring for our three little boys and

I loved being a pastor's wife, like my identity and my life was.

So wrapped up in who he was and supporting him and supporting

our church in every way possible.

And I loved my life.

I had a beautiful, amazing, meaningful life.

And then in the fall of.

Things started to shift.

It been a few years since his dad passed away and Andrew just started to burn out.

It started with panic attacks.

He was having panic attacks about two to three a week.

Very debilitating, very, it would take over his entire body

mostly when he was trying to go.

Sleep.

And at first we thought it was a health issue.

We thought maybe it was a thyroid issue.

Maybe he could just get some medication.

It would make the panic attacks go away.

And so we were seeing doctors doing blood work, taking the next right steps and

the panic attacks continued to get worse.

And they got so bad that he ended up in the hospital and it was

then that our church staff and our leadership team and our family

decided, you know, enough is enough.

This guy was pushing through.

He was still showing up on Sunday, even when he had panic attack

it minutes before he was showing up and preaching and present and

trying to push through his pain.

And we all decided enough is enough.

To take a break.

And so we put him on a sabbatical in April of 2018 and he rested.

And just a few weeks later, he was diagnosed with depression and we

finally had some of the answers we were looking for and why he was

experiencing these panic attacks and why he had so much anxiety and his.

Body was just depleted.

It had been a long journey of caring for his dad and watching his dad die

and caring for the church and raising young family that he was just exhausted.

But the doctors and the medical team that we had surrounding him was confident that

he would bounce right back that he was on the low end of the depression spectrum.

That was.

In medication and therapy and time off work.

He would just be back to himself in no time.

And so we trusted that we trusted their advice.

We trusted their plan and we took it seriously.

And so for the next three months, we did everything the doctors told us to do.

He rested, he started a medical treatment plan.

We took time together.

We went on a road trip together, just the two of us took time together at home.

He read, he went and spent time with mentors.

I mean, you name it.

We tried, we tried it.

We were doing everything we knew to do to get him better.

And by.

2018.

The doctors actually thought he was getting better and thought

the next right step in his healing journey would be to go back to work.

And so Andrew returned to work, hit the ground running and gave two powerful

weekend messages on mental health.

Talked about depression gave out the suicide hotline number gave

out quotes from the NAMI website.

Like he had done his research.

He would've known where to go for help and then headed into the third week.

He just had a really awful day at the office.

His mind wasn't fully healed.

He had told our family and told our staff that he was at about

65% when he returned to ministry.

And so he was hoping to ease back into ministry over time.

Which many of.

That are in ministry or have been in ministry, know that it's very

difficult to ease into ministry.

It's kinda a full on thing.

And so really awful day that really triggered mental breakdown in Andrew.

And it was bad enough where our family and our staff realized like,

whoa, whoa, whoa, maybe this guy shouldn't have gone back to work.

Maybe he wasn't ready.

Maybe he still needed some time to heal.

And so the following day while we.

Away from him for just a little bit of time, the unimaginable

happened and he attempted suicide.

And it was an absolute blindside.

I mean, the doctors were blindsided.

Our family was blindsided.

Our church was blindsided.

Here is this young 30 year old, healthy, incredible man living out his

calling doing the job of his dreams, amazing supportive family and suicide.

I mean, it was just so unexpected and the worst day of my life.

And so he was rushed to the hospital and we were given the gift of one

last day to lay with him and hold him and pray over him and listen

to his favorite worship songs with him and ultimately to say goodbye.

And so on August 20.

2018.

He took his last breath.

And with that, I took my first in this very brand new life that I

never saw coming as a widow and single mom of three little boys who

were two, four and five years old.

So it's a journey.

That day that's a really long description of how I got to where I am today.

It's been a journey.

And so it's been about four years since he passed away and my boys now are

six, eight, and almost 10 years old.

And we are living in a completely different life.

I mean, it still takes my breath away some days that this is our life.

This is the life that we're living.

This is the life God's led us.

To we really welcomed our pain, welcomed our grief walked

through the dark valley of grief.

I mean, it was very dark, very scary.

There were days where I didn't know I was gonna survive.

But I'm here and it's been a lesson the last four years.

It's been a a giant lesson in learning to live with the pain and God has done some

incredible ministries through our story.

I've written a book called fear gone wild.

I've been able to share Story on various platforms all over the us.

And I wrote another book that's coming out this fall called rebuilding

beautiful that I really encapsulates that hope that there can be a beautiful

life after last that even though that.

Beautiful life that I had with my husband died with him.

It's that hope that life can still be beautiful again, and I'm still

rebuilding that with my boys.

And so I'm really excited to share that message in just about a month.

Well, Caleb, we talked even before the podcast, just briefly for a couple

of minutes and, and I was saying that, you know, a lot of people have the

assumption that those of us that are in ministry, that we have this kind of a

star wars force field around us and that we don't have some of the struggles.

Everyday folks have that are not in ministry.

And as we were talking, oftentimes those of us that are in ministry, not only

battle, but in some, some cases maybe even more so because of the fact that,

that we are in ministry and, you know, here, your husband was 26 year old.

Obviously he, he was a young pastor and not.

I mean, but he, he was a pastor too, of a megachurch.

It's not like this was a small church.

There was a lot of responsibility that came with his position.

I, I believe you'd said that it, you know, was several thousand people

that attended there every single week.

One of the things I was curious about, Kayla it prior to the situation where

your husband was facing burnout and started going through this season, had

there been depression in his life ever before that, or was this literally out

of the.

Yeah.

Andrew, you know, ever since I met Andrew, I met him when he

was probably 19 or 20 years old.

And he's always had a towards anxiety.

He's more, he was more serious very focused, very, so wouldn't say that

he had had experienced depression before, but he definitely just had a

bent towards just being a more serious.

Melancholy type of person mm-hmm and, you know, I think that there were probably

signs that I missed when his dad was sick.

There were days where he didn't wanna get outta bed.

There were days when he would just stay in bed all day and he would call in sick

to work and he wouldn't show up for work.

And you.

Some of those moments where I was so busy with our boys with raising a family.

And I was also working at the church until we had our third boy.

I was working in the children's ministry at the church.

So I had a big responsibility a big team that I oversaw.

And, and so I was busy, you know, doing my own thing that I didn't always

notice, you know, some of those warning signs and some of those moments.

Maybe I should have leaned into and really tried to see him

and meet him in those moments.

And Andrew really wanted to be this strong, capable man.

And so I think he had a hard time showing vulnerability and showing weakness and

opening up about how he was truly feeling.

But I think there were some warning.

Signs and maybe some red flags even before the panic attack started.

Even, you know, not even taking enough time off degree, he should have taken six

months off grief or even longer off grief.

Before he went back to work after his dad passed away.

So, you know, I think oftentimes we're so focused on what's best

for the church that we don't.

Put the pastors best interest in mind or pastor's best interest

or the pastor's family best interest at the top of the list.

And we think, you know, they can just handle it or this is what's best for the

church and we don't wanna lose momentum.

And if he's not there on Sunday, then people aren't gonna show up and we put.

So much pressure on this one person to, to lead this church.

And it's a lot, you know, it's a lot riding on one person.

I remember Andrew oftentimes calling himself the linchpin.

He really felt like he was the person holding it all together.

And I think it was just those four years of when his dad was sick and he really

truly was the guy, you know, his dad was.

Speaking through his leukemia journey, we were filming him from the hospital.

He would show up on Sunday after doing chemotherapy all week.

I mean, his dad had modeled to him that you do not, that you keep pushing

through the pain that you keep showing up, that you, the church first.

And it really wasn't modeled to him to take time to rest and to take

time off work and to put your own means and the needs of your family

before the needs of the church.

Yeah, well, no, there, and there's no doubt about that.

I literally just left lunch with a close friend of mine where I'm

preaching this Sunday here locally.

And we were talking about this very thing about most people just don't

realize, and it's not a poor me.

It's just the reality that.

The pressure in ministry is so, so incredibly high.

And you talked about, you know, wanting to be strong and put up a good front

that's that's also a common denominator.

And I think something that the enemy uses too, to further isolate people, although

he may not have been open Kayla with other people, was, was he open with you or,

or was it wanting to shield you as well so that you wouldn't be worried about.

I think he wanted to shield me in some ways as well.

And I think we were so young and so naive, you know, I didn't

grow up in pastor's family.

I grew up attending church, but I no idea everything that behind the

scenes, young, starting just wasn't.

There just, wasn't an awareness of his needs.

For any of us, you know, it's like, we just, we just thought, you know, Andrew

was like this super human and he's just gonna get the job done because he did.

And so there wasn't a lot of space there wasn't a lot of

time where he was vulnerable, where he opened up to me and I.

I think I tried, you know, to, to dig in with him.

And there were moments where I really tried to ask him questions and see him

and acknowledge his pain and try to give him some space to talk about it.

But, you know, Andrew was a very private person, very, very close, tight knit

circle of friends, maybe just one or two people that he led into his life.

And so he had a very, very private life.

And I think he really did have a, had a hard time with vulnerability.

Yeah.

Well, and that's another thing for most people that are in ministry, especially

it's when it's a high profile position.

Like he had at megachurch people in ministry, didn't do tend to put up a

shield because they feel that they have to, in some ways, protect themselves.

It's very easy for people to, to find fault and criticism and, and

because they are supposed to be this strong leader who is invincible.

And so, you know, I think that's something that you see a lot as well.

You mentioned that when he went back into full time, back, back to his position that

he was at, or I think you said, he said that he was at about a 65% recovery rate.

Looking back on that, I mean, was that something that you felt

maybe that the professionals.

Were surrounding him.

Was that just ignorance on their behalf of, of not recognizing that or was that

partially of him thinking that okay.

I'm at 65%, but that's good enough.

Mm-hmm I mean, what's your thought on that?

I think, you know, I was, I was concerned when he decided that it

was time and the doctors decided it was time for him to go back to work.

You know, I, I was concerned and I was worried now about him, about

his mental health and his mental.

Stayed and worried that he wasn't fully healed or fully ready.

And I just know Andrew and I knew that he wanted to go back.

There were other, there was other motivation besides, you know, just

doing the next right steps for healing.

I think he knew that it was August.

And people are going back to school and it's when their

momentum picks up for the church.

And people are, you know, going back to church on Sunday, they're

done with their summer vacations.

And so I think he didn't wanna miss the moment.

I think he didn't wanna miss the momentum.

And so I think he pushed himself to go back to work before he was even ready.

And I think he.

So badly wanted to be, well, he so badly just wanted the whole nightmare

of mental health and depression to be over and wanted to be back to himself.

And I get that.

I totally understand that, but I wish that he would've himself more grace.

Yeah.

Well, and there is, especially at that time of the year for those of us in

ministry, I mean, it is like, as you say, everybody comes back and, and there's

these vice grips that are inherent with being in ministry where not only is

there is, is there this ongoing pressure, but there's these huge expectations.

And the truth of the matter is.

No man is the head of the church.

It's God's the head of the church, but yet there's this expectation that is put on

people in leadership positions, that you are the head of the church and you have

these obligations and responsibilities.

And if you're not SA sailing the ship, the ship's gonna sink another

thing I wondered Kayla is when people go through tragedy and, and to, to

really even to say tragedy, this is an understatement, especially for,

you know, a mother who's a stay home mom and trying to raise three boys.

And, and something is tragic as this happens.

And because of my own story and, and having spoken about this all over the

world, I find some people and, and I certainly don't blame them in, in any way.

But they go to a season of, of blaming God, you know, that God is responsible.

I was just wondering, is, is that something that you've struggled with?

You know, I, I mostly struggled with that when Andrew was sick.

I really struggled with God.

Why you, why are you allowing this to happen?

We just went through four years of his dad battling leukemia of

a really hard unpredictable life.

You know, there would be weekends where we expected.

I expected Andrew to be home.

Spending time with our family.

And he would get a call on Friday night that his dad couldn't preach on Sunday.

And so he'd have to work, you know, get to work right then and, and

come up with a message for Sunday.

And so we had been living with that, like that for four years.

And so I'm like, God, why are you allowing this to happen?

After the four year journey after his dad passed away after this epic weekend where

he became the lead pastor and like we're supposed to be headed into a new good.

Season, why are you allowing this to happen again?

It felt like.

And so it really felt, you know, in that season when Andrew was sick, like

a desert season, it felt like we were in this wilderness season of where are you?

God, why are you allowing this to happen?

And it really felt like God was silent.

I remember walking around my house.

Andrew was in the bedroom.

A lot of the time he was resting and spending time in our bedroom.

And so I was really pretty much a single mom that summer and trying

to take care of our three boys and trying to keep them away from the

bedroom so that their dad could rest.

Cause being in an environment was three little boys.

Isn't the most restful environment to create that space for him.

But I remember walking around my house and crying and saying out

loud, like this is the summer from.

So I was really struggling.

I was really struggling with where are you?

God.

And why are you allowing this to happen?

And.

As much as I believe that Andrew's mental health was a chemical

imbalance happening in his brain, that it was a result of adrenal

burnout and just burnout in general.

There was still spiritual component to it.

That was very real and very scary.

And so that to me was also very frustrating.

My husband was terrified and he.

Saw things and had some scary encounters with things that he saw.

I talk about it in my book, if you're gone wild, there's a whole

chapter called stranger things.

Where I describe these encounters that he had, and one of 'em was

in our bedroom and he saw, you know, it's gonna sound so weird.

And some people listening to this, but he saw like five creatures and they

all had different names and they were all saying different things to, to him.

And they were all the names were like anxiety and depression.

And success and failure.

And he was terrified.

I mean, I walked into my bedroom and got a sheet over his head and shaking and, and.

I'm praying.

I have people over at our house.

They're anointing him with oil.

They're anointing every room of our home with oil.

They're praying for our family.

We have thousands of people praying for our family.

Why are you allowing this to happen?

Why are you allowing him to be terrified?

Why aren't you fixing this?

And then ultimately he dies.

And then it's like, really like, God, what the heck?

So it's been a wrestle, you know, it's been a wrestle with God.

And oftentimes I think about the story of Jesus and the garden of G enemy.

And he's having that moment where he's on his knees and he is

begging God for a different way.

It's like, God, why are you allowing this to happen?

God, is there any other way, like, does it have to go down like.

Do I have to die like this?

Like, does this, is this the way things have to be?

And ultimately he surrenders and he's like, not my will, but your will be.

And so after passed away was like that surrender of like, I

can't change my circumstance.

Ultimately you allowed.

This to happen.

Ultimately, I don't believe this was plan a for Andrew's life.

But ultimately, you know, God allowed this to happen.

And so what now God.

Okay.

So render my plan to you.

Everything I thought about what my life would be is

washed away with Andrews death.

So what is my life gonna be now?

And what I found on the other side of death on the other side of.

Was that God is everywhere.

I mean, it was a while to go from this desert season of where you got

and why aren't you fixing this to the worst thing imaginable happening?

So you're literally feeling like God is everywhere.

There was miracle after miracle after miracle.

And that verse that the Lord comforts the broken hearted or the Lord's close

to the broken hearted and comforts.

Those who are Christian spirit is just so true.

I mean, God.

So, so close.

And I, I had coffee dates with friends where I was sharing with

them, the things that he was doing in our life, and they were weeping

with me and they said out loud, they have never seen the hand of God.

Like they've the of God in my grief, little tiny miracles.

Like the, I'll give you an example.

Right after my husband passed away, I waited a week to tell my kids.

And when I did sit them down and tell them right after that, I sat and I

colored in this coloring book with my five year and the coloring book

description, describing grief and death through the life cycle of caterpillar.

And so we were sitting there and we were together.

We were talking about caterpillars and cocoons and butterflies,

and then it was nap time.

So we put the book and I went to the curtains in our living room and right

where I put my hand on the curtain, a little tiny green caterpillar.

And I, I don't touch bugs, but I pulled the caterpillar off the curtain and I ran

and showed my five year old son Smith.

And I said, look, it's a caterpillar and Smith without skipping a beat

said, it's a miracle from God.

So he gave us little tiny miracles that my boys could see that were

tangible, that they could notice, and then huge, huge miracles.

For me, you know, and for our family and provision for our family.

In huge ways, you know, huge financial blessing for our family

because Andrew died by suicide.

There was no life insurance.

He had opted outta social security.

So we were not in a good place financially, and God just provided

above and beyond that way too.

And people, he gave people a heart to give to our family.

And so there were huge, huge miracles, tiny little miracles.

Went from where are you got to?

Oh my gosh, God, you are covering all of our needs.

You're so close.

You're so good.

You're everywhere.

I will never understand why you allowed this to happen, but I trust you.

Wow.

Well, obviously there was a, a huge struggle and that would to be expected,

but it sounds like Kayla that it really wasn't, you didn't go through

that season of really blaming God questioning God, of course, but, but not

really blaming him for what happened.

I, it sounds as though you recognized that, that it wasn't God's fault.

Am I correct?

Yeah, I truly believe, you know, when suicide happens, suicide

is such a different kinda death.

And when suicide happens, it's easy to point the finger at anybody and everybody,

you can point the finger at the spouse.

You can point the finger at the family.

You can point the finger at the circumstance.

You can point the finger at the medication or at the doctors or at God or whatever.

And for me, you know, I see Andrew's death as a horrible tragic.

Accidents.

And I don't blame anybody.

I describe Andrew's death and like a child drowning in a

swimming pool at a birthday party.

I mean, he was surrounded by people that loved him and we all just missed it.

We all just had no idea how bad his depression really was.

And I truly believe that Andrew didn't even know how

bad his depression really was.

And his psychiatrist after he died said something to me that was really helpful.

He said that 90% of suicides are impulsive.

It's this in the moment, overwhelming flood of pain, that many of us

aren't capable of understanding unless we've been there, unless

we've had an attempt, unless.

Many of us are just uncap uncapable of understanding.

And so I truly believe that the suicide isn't anybody's fault.

It's not Andrew's fault.

It's not God's fault.

It's not my fault.

It's not the doctor's fault.

It's not anybody's fault.

Nobody is to blame.

It's a horrific tragedy.

And trying to put blame on anything or anybody is just super unhelpful.

Taylor.

When I was struggling with suicidal tendencies.

There were people around me that knew I had issues, but even those that were

closest to me, albeit a very limited circle, really had no recognition

of how dark the darkness was and, and how much I was suffocating.

And part of that was similar to your husband.

I, I, I didn't want people to know.

I wanted people to think, you know, I'm a man and I can handle this and

I'm strong and yada, yada But, but people didn't really didn't know.

And matter of fact, even a friend of mine years later wanted to meet with me.

And, and I was telling him about some struggles he was having.

And anyway, he later went home and, and hung himself and his, his kids found him

and I carried a lot of guilt of going Jay, if anybody should have recognized

the signs, it should have been you.

I mean, you've, you've dealt with this in your own personal life and, and how.

Did you miss it?

And, and so I carried, I felt like I carried some responsibility that

I didn't see the signs you talked about and it, and it's always easy.

As the old saying goes, hindsight is 2020, meaning.

Yeah, you can, you can look behind you and go, how did I miss that?

And, oh, now this all makes sense.

And you talked about after your husband had ended his life.

You, you, you, you did see some of the signs that weren't so visible, you know,

it's, it's kinda like your analogy of a, a kid in a swimming pool drowning.

I think for a lot of people, it's the people that are surrounding.

And from my perspective, it's like, they're blind.

It's not that they don't care.

It's not like they wouldn't help.

It's not like they don't want to help.

It's that proverbial.

Yeah.

I'm in the pool drowning, but all the people around me.

They, they can't hear me and they can't see me.

And so I wondered when you looked back and saw, okay, gosh, now

I, I, I see this and I see that.

Did you carry a sense of guilt of why didn't I recognize this?

And well, if I would've, if I would've seen this, as clearly as I do now, well,

then I could have done this and that.

Did, did you walk down that dark path of feeling guilt and wondering, blaming

yourself for why you didn't see it?

When, when it was so obvious in H.

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

I think anybody that deeply loved Andrew would've done anything that

they, that they could have to save him.

And so after he passed away, there were months where my mind

would literally try to save him.

My mind would come up with every possible scenario and it would replay

over and over and over and over just trying to make sense of the trauma.

Just trying to make sense of what happened.

My mind had no category.

And so we just replay over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

And so I did struggle for a while.

With regret and with thinking back and wondering what I'd miss.

And as I did look back, you know, there was a moment where Andrew tried to tell

me we were sitting at the kitchen counter.

It was after the kids had gone to sleep.

And like I said, like it was the summer from hell for me.

And so I was exhausted.

I was depleted, I was getting burnt out Andrew's therapist had shared with me.

To burdening his depression, his depression.

And his response to me is that he's venting to me about his own pain too.

And he tells me that he was up in the middle of the night, the night

before and had his organization chart spread all over the counter.

And he thought about killing himself.

And I reacted out of my own emotion out of my own exhaustion.

I couldn't even hear or see what he was trying to say.

And so I reacted of my own emotion.

I said, Andrew, that's the most selfish thing you could ever do.

You would never do that to me.

And the boys just totally offended.

Like, I can't believe you even said that.

And I just totally dismissed it.

And Andrew, I'll never forget.

Andrew looked at me and said, Kayla, that's not what you.

You need to do some research and up with something better to say, and he was.

You know, that's not what you say.

I know now that's not what you say to someone that's struggling with suicidal

ideation, with someone that's trying to you, the darkest struggle of their mind.

Like that is not what someone's vulnerable and raise their hand and out for help.

You don't just dismiss them.

You know, looking back.

I wish I would've been able to pause in that moment to realize, to take my ego

off the table and realize that moment.

Wasn't about.

And to have the ability to pause for that moment and respond instead of react.

When someone tells you that they're struggling with suicidal

thoughts, it's time to lean in.

It's time to ask questions, questions, like, do you have a suicide plan?

What problem are you trying to solve through suicide?

How far have you researched it?

How often are you thinking about.

It's time to up the phone and call the suicide hotline.

I wish I would've done that.

I didn't exist that the

psychiatrist, psychiatrist the day and.

Said this to me, I'm concerned.

I wish I would've told our therapist.

Hey, my husband said this to I'm concerned.

I would've invited other family members that were walking the mental health

journey with, into the conversation.

But I didn't tell, and I never brought it up.

And I think I did a total disservice to Andrew because I

just, I truly didn't underst.

And so, you know, looking back I know that I did the best that I could

given the circumstance that I was in, and there's so much grace for that.

But I it's.

I'm so grateful that I'm able to share that now.

Hopefully for other people to not miss that moment, if someone's trying,

they're struggling, suicidal thought, not that moment, not that opportunity.

The one and opportunity that to see into, to be invited into

that dark space of their mind.

And so I wish I would've asked.

Every day too.

I wish I would've been comfortable.

You know, I think the word suicide scared me.

I think I, I think I was notable even saying the word suicide out loud and

now I, then I, that truly never happen.

But I wish I would've asked him every single day.

Are you suicidal today?

How are your suicidal thoughts going?

Have you been thinking about suicide?

I wish I just would've been able to see him and see how bad it really was.

I just totally dismissed it and thought it would never happen.

And

it did well.

I'm really glad that you answered that question the way you did, because

there may be people who will listen.

This podcast who recently are made in the future, have someone that,

that makes this statement similar to what your husband made to you.

And maybe out of just a response or maybe out of trying to, in some way,

awaken them out of darkness to say, you know, Hey, this is a selfish thing.

And, and I, I love your answer, you know, and that.

Continue to ask them to encourage them.

If they're not getting therapy to get therapy to surround themselves with

other people to not react, but yet take an action by, and, and you gave

so many helpful things about what, what people can do in, in that scenario that

you wish you would've said just last week I was in Colorado on vacation.

And there's a guy that lives up in the north who has traveled with our ministry

on occasion and, and out of the blue text.

Me and I, I know that he's going through a divorce and texted me and

said, Hey does God forgive people that commit suicide and I was on vacation.

And so I normally, I mean, it was just me and my wife.

It was the first time just the two of us have been on vacation.

And I don't, I can't even remember when with no kids.

And so I really tried to stay disconnected from ministry or phone calls or

emails or texts, the best I could.

And we were about to go on a hike, but I knew that when I got the text.

Although he was trying to camouflage it where it sounded as though he

was just asking a a random question.

I knew that what he was trying to find out was if he ended his life, would

God send him to hell, which number one?

I don't believe that, but he didn't know.

So I immediately immediately called him.

And, and some of the things that you said, you know, I asked him if he was

going to therapy and he said, yes, he was.

And I said, does your therapist know your suicidal?

And he said, no.

And I asked him to make a commitment that he would call his therapist,

you know, here I'm in Colorado.

And I won't say what state he's in, but a long way from where I'm at.

It made him promise that he would not that he would contact his

therapist and let his therapist know.

I did tell him that I was on vacation, but even though I was on vacation

that, you know, I I'm I'm here for him.

And that while I am accessible, even though I'm on vacation, that it, he

needs to have other people that he tells this to, that can also reach out to him.

So I think those are, are really important steps that people can take.

Like you said, even the, the suicide hot.

asking, do you have a plan?

Which I think is another great question because it kind of

gives you an idea of how, how in depth they've thought about this.

How serious are they?

I mean, have they actually got to a place where in his case, matter of fact,

it's ironic that we're talking about it because I got a text message from him.

Yesterday.

And he said that he had already made a recording for his boys and had put him

in a Dropbox and left a note for his family that when they found him that he

had made recordings for his boys to let his boys know how much he loved him.

So, yeah, I, I loved your, your, your answer and I love the action

items that, that you listed out.

But I do wanna ask you this kind of in this same, on this same racetrack here.

You talked about this guilt that you had and how you wished you would've

responded at that moment of weakness, where he was trying to, in his own

way, he was reaching out for help.

He, he was trying to tell you how deeply he was hurting and, and you

did talk about, you know, the guilt and how you relive that and wish

you would've responded differently.

But I think there may be people listening to this podcast that.

Yeah, well, that's where I'm at now.

And I'm still carrying the guilt.

How, how did you actually move past that guilt of self blame?

Where I shouldn't have said this.

I shouldn't have made it about me.

I should have taken these other action steps that I now know to take.

How did you get past that guilt?

That some people are still carrying Kayla.

Yeah, I think it's really important to view suicide differently

to look at suicide through a completely different lens.

I think so often, you know, our culture and the way the words that we choose

to describe suicide are words like committed suicide or killed themselves.

And when you say words like that, you're putting blame on the person that died.

And so, you know, it's so important for me to change that language.

And I had that shift right away where someone had explained to me that instead

of saying committed suicide or killed themself, you say died by suicide.

And even that small shift in language totally takes the blame off of everybody.

It takes the blame off of the person who died.

It takes the blame off the loved one.

It takes the blame off the medical team.

You know, they died by suicide, mental.

Mental illness is a real illness, just as real as any other illness.

Mental illness is Aly, just other illness and mental invisible.

I think choosing to see the suicide through empathetic know through seeing

that truly doctors and the totally unaware of how sick he truly was and

the suicide isn't anybody's fault.

It's not Andrew's fault.

It's not my.

It truly is a tragedy and nobody is to blame.

And so even when we we're, we're discussing it and talking about it

in therapy or talking about it with friends, you know, I never talk about

it in a way where I feel guilt or where I'm putting guilt on Andrew.

And I think not only is that a gift to me and my own healing

journey because there's no bitter.

And there's no blame.

I, I really truly have grace extended grace towards Andrew and extended

grace towards the team of doctors and extended grace towards myself.

I think that's the, the, the, the biggest gift that we can give ourselves

is to extend grace to everybody, even

to ourself.

Right.

And just change your perspective of, I love what you said about changing

your perspective, but in all honesty, Kayla, a lot of people tell me that

they still feel anger at a loved one.

Do you have seasons of feeling anger at him or have you

completely been able to walk away?

I truly don't.

And I can honestly say that, you know, there are moments where I'm

like, gosh, I wish you were here.

You know, obviously like every single day I wish was here and my

boys are growing up without a dad.

And so I have the tangible reality of raising three boys

as a single woman on my own.

And so there are moments every single day where it's just like this ache and

this Ugh, you know, in the deep of my gut where I'm like, man, I wish you were here.

But anger, no.

You know, I think at the beginning, in that first year or two there

may have been some anger that I worked through, but I've, I truly

just have been able to get to a.

Where I can see the suicide as a tragedy where I can see the suicide,

you know, there was a description.

think Anne Voskamp had written a description in one of her blog.

About suicide and described it as being trapped in a burning building.

And the only way to escape the flames is to jump out the window.

And so, you know, Andrew was experiencing overwhelming pain pain that I am totally,

you know, I'm more familiar with now that I've walked through grief but pain that

I truly will never be able to underst.

And in that moment of desperation he felt like the only way the only

escape was to jump out the window.

And so you know, I think just living in that reality and, and seeing the,

that, and truly isn't something that in Andrew's healthy, right mind this

isn't something he would've ever chosen.

I think he is just a surprise by the suicide that the rest of us are.

And so yeah, I've really, I've really been able to reconcile those feelings.

And I think inviting God into my journey and surrendering a lot of

that to him and I journal a lot.

I went to therapy every single week for an hour for the first two years of my grief.

Still go to therapy.

Like once every three months now I see my therapist cause I am doing better

and I'm in a much better place, but I still think it's really important.

And through, through being in community, you know, through inviting people

into my pain, through inviting people, into my anger, through inviting

people, into my guilt, through inviting people into some of those

raw vulnerable spaces and emotions, I.

Friends that have just held me.

They haven't tried to show up with an agenda.

They haven't tried to show up with all the right things to say, they've,

they've just sat and wet with me and held me and said, I'm so sorry.

And that was enough.

Their presence was enough.

And so I think inviting doing life with community surrendering my grief and my

pain and my questions to God and truly.

Facing my trauma head on and going to therapy and welcoming the pain and going

right through the pain and learning to live with it, you know, pain, isn't

something you get over or you move past.

Pain is something that you invite into your life.

And so learning to welcome it and invite it and see what it has to teach me.

And there have been so many lessons in my grief that I would've never.

Had I not gone through this experience.

And so pain has been one of the greatest teachers of my life.

And as much as I hate what happened to me, I am so grateful for the

lessons that I've learned through it.

And I love the fact Kayla that you're giving people tools.

I don't even know if you recognize, I don't even think you're doing it

intentional, but I mean, you just, even in dealing with grief, you just gave people.

I don't want to say an outline because there is no specific outline, but you're

doing the exact opposite, you know, of what your husband knew to do in your pain.

You're doing what people who are suicidal or who are considering,

or have suicidal tendencies.

You're doing the exact opposite.

You're letting people in, you're surrounding yourself with people

who love you, who allow you to be real and transparent and authentic

about your pain, about whether, whether it was anger, whether it

was guilt, whether whatever it was.

And that's a solution.

Not only for people who are contemplating suicide is allowing people in because

they tend to isolate themselves.

But it's also a recipe for people who are on the other side, like yourself.

You allow people to, to, to walk into your world and to invade your world.

And of course it's gotta be the right people.

It's gotta be people who, as you said, don't come with an agenda

and they come with a listening ear.

They come out of love.

They come out of compassion.

They come out of a, a, a, a.

An endeavor to understand.

And so, even though I don't even know if you're aware of it, you're really

giving some great tools for somebody that may be listening today that maybe

they all, they feel guilt or, or they're still going through that process.

Maybe they're angry at God or blaming God or blaming a

loved one who took their life.

What you're doing and what you have done, you know, you even mentioned therapy

and, and these are things that are very viable assets and resources and tools

to, to help people deal with this.

You know, one of the things that today, or really a couple of things

that I wanted to discuss, that really you've said without us even having to

discuss them, I, I wanna talk about, you know, removing the shame and stigma

that's associated with mental health.

It never even really even came out as a topic because you talked

about having a different mindset, a, a different perspective on that.

I wanted to talk about, you know, recognizing.

Suicidal tendencies as a medical situation.

And not always, sometimes it is a spiritual issue.

No doubt.

And I do believe the forces of darkness.

We know that the scripture says in John 8 44, that Satanists come to

he's a murderer matter of fact says he was a murderer from the beginning.

So not saying that there aren't I do believe that's a part of the puzzle

that it can be a spiritual issue, but it also is a medical condition.

And so I just love how.

You know, you you've hit on so many different topics that I wanted to, to

dive into that you've addressed with maybe like I say, not even knowing that,

that, that you were addressing them.

One of the things I wanted to ask you as a person who has been in ministry in a

mega way in a megachurch, why do you think Kayla that suicide and mental health and

depression are not more openly discussed?

I, I have my opinions about this, but I'd be curious what your thoughts.

Yeah, I think ultimately, and I think it's getting a lot better.

I've seen improvement in the conversation and people being willing and being

brave enough to have conversations about mental health and depression.

Since Andrew died, I it's, Andrew died.

There's another big pastor that died.

Several pastors that have died from suicide.

I think it's really cracked open the conversation where churches

have realized like, this is something we need to talk about.

And so I'm.

So grateful for that wanna acknowledge that.

But I think, I think there still is a stigma, you know, I think there

still is this stigma that if you have enough faith that you believe that

if you believe in God, very hard yep.

That you'll never struggle with depression, that you should never struggle

with suicidal thoughts that you'll never struggle with mental illness.

If you're just close enough to God.

You're praying every day and you're in the word and you're

doing all these things with yes.

Like do those things, you know, be in community, be in the word chase after

God do life with the holy spirit.

Like yes, yes, please do all those things.

I think those things will improve your mental health, but it's not just a

spiritual thing, you know, we're not.

Spiritual beings where also like have physical bodies that get sick.

And so mental illness is a real physical illness, just like

any other physical illness.

And so I think it should be treated with the same empathy and compassion and tender

care and love like any other illness.

And I think that's.

Where the church sometimes misses

the mark.

Oh, I totally agree.

And I've heard people say that so many times, as you stated, you

know, you need to pray harder.

You need to have bigger faith and what's ironic people who say

that about mental health issues.

Wouldn't say that about The flu, nobody would say, well, if you would've prayed

harder, if you would've went to church more often, if you'd have read your

Bible, you'd have never got the flu.

No people recognize that part of being a human being is, is you're

susceptible to illness or to sickness.

But for some reason, when it comes to mental health, well, that's a different

issue where people think, oh no, no, no.

If, if you're walking with God that you're isolated from that, and it's not true.

Mm.

Okay.

As we, you know, kind of bring this thing to a close.

And, and I, there are people who listen to our podcasts that are believers.

There will be people, people that listen to this, that are ministry

leaders, lay leaders, people that are from all walks of life.

And there will be people that will listen to this podcast that, that

don't have a relationship to Christ.

You know, of course our goal here, we're not trying to harpoon anybody or

spear anybody, but we do want people to know that ultimately, as people who are

followers of Christ, our ultimate hope is in him, in him and nothing less, not in,

not in religion, not in denomination not in any good works, but our, our hope is in

the fact that God's son gave his life, he was executed on dead mans hill 2000 years.

not so we could be isolated from all problems and difficulties,

but so we could have relationship, not religion, but relationship.

And as we kind of bring this thing to a close Kayla,

obviously I know you love Jesus.

And, and, and you're a believer.

What would you say?

Just somebody who is listening to this podcast and, and they're not a believer

what words would you have for them?

I would say you're missing out.

If you, you're not doing life with God and you're not doing life with the holy

spirit that you're missing out on the, on the peace on the love, the you missing out

on one of the greatest mysteries of life.

And I know that I couldn't have survived what I've survived the last

four years without God, without my faith without doing life with him.

And so I just encourage you to after what that is in your life,

what that looks like for your life.

Get curious to ask questions, to pick up a book, maybe pick up a devotional.

Maybe someone's gifted you a book and it's been collecting dust on your

bookshelf and maybe it's time to crack it open and just get a little curious.

About what, who is this Jesus guy and what does it mean to live life with him, to

walk with him, to follow the way of Jesus?

Like, what does that mean?

What does that look like?

What does it look like to be filled with the power of the holy spirit?

And I always encourage you to.

Questions to get in community to find a local church.

And, and honestly, I think it does start with curiosity with just showing

on a Sunday and just checking it out.

And if you don't like it, go check out one around the corner there,

another one around the corner.

And that, you know, when you, when we do life with God, it truly.

The best life.

And that doesn't mean that it's exempt from hardship.

That doesn't mean that awful, terrible, horrible things

won't happen because they will.

But what it does mean is that he will sustain us through that

and he will give us the grace.

And the, and the strength and the peace and the joy, all

supernatural all from him.

Hardest,

hardest.

And.

That's such an awesome answer.

And even as you were talking I was thinking there may be people that go, you

know, I've tried this, I've tried that and, and nothing has brought the hope.

Nothing has brought the healing.

I'm still, I'm, I'm suffocating.

I'm stuck in the quick sand of life and maybe it's not suicide.

Maybe it's a marital issue.

Maybe it's a health issue.

Maybe it's a financial issue.

Maybe it's a career issue.

I, I don't.

And I think about the story about the, the lady in her case

it was a medical issue and she'd spent all the money that she had.

She went to the doctors, she'd seen the best that she could afford.

And matter of fact, according to the story in the Bible, her situation, not only

didn't get better, but it got worse, but God even utilized her pain, her suffer.

As a tool to help her recognize that she couldn't do it on her

own that she couldn't part, part, part the sea on her own that she

couldn't, that, that she needed help.

And because of that, she was able to come to Christ and not only was she healed,

but her life was instantaneously changed.

And now here it is 2000 years later and, and people are still

talking about her as I am right now.

So maybe even for someone that's listening, that goes, yeah.

You know, that sounds good.

I don't know if that works for me.

Nothing else has worked well, just maybe just maybe God has allowed you.

And I didn't say cause, but maybe God has allowed you to come to the place where you

are so that you could recognize that he is not a answer, but he's the only answer.

And that knowing him and to beginning a relationship with him is just as simple as

your willingness to call out to him and to invite him in your life and surrender to.

It's not a matter of just of words, but a matter of saying, Jesus, I need you.

I want you in my life.

And obviously.

What he can do is so obvious Kayla through your life.

I'm so grateful today to have you on the podcast.

Your story is truly, I mean, honestly, it's phenomenal.

I have so much respect for, even though you, and I've never met face to face.

I have so much respect for how you've handled the situation

for what you're going through.

And I have so much respect for how you're using your pain as a

platform to help other people.

And I know ultimately that that's what God would have you to do.

He would.

Have you to take what you've been through to help rescue others.

I want you to know.

And I mean, it, I really mean it with a depth to my heart that I'm gonna

be praying for you and for what it's worth and, and for your three boys.

I know God has great things ahead for you.

I want our listeners to have the ability to connect with you.

I mentioned earlier, you've got a book called fear going wild.

You've got another book coming out, rebuilding beautiful.

Kayla, how can people reach out to you and get a copy of your first

book and, and your upcoming book?

Remind.

Yeah.

The best place to connect with on social media, I'm Instagram

also be available, you know, local bookstores too.

So those are the best places

and Kayla on, on Instagram, is it, is it Kayla your full, last name?

No, it's just stack S T E C K

S T.

Well, I'll tell you what I'm gonna, I'm gonna start I'm I'm literally

on my phone at this minute, cause I wanna start following you myself.

And tell me, tell me again, our listeners.

I couldn't hear you clearly.

It's K a Y L a.

What?

Spell

it for us.

S T E C

K.

Awesome.

Kayla, thank you so much today for.

For taking your time to be on this podcast and thank you for for what you're

doing for the kingdom much respect to you and, and just know that God's gonna

continue to do great things in your life.

Thank you so much.