In this insightful episode of Hustle & Flowchart, Joe Fier recaps the top episodes of 2025—including Jacob Gooden, Justin Abrams, Scott Duffy, Matt Wolfe, and Joe Stolte—to break down the key mindsets and strategies shaping the future for creators, entrepreneurs, and business owners. From embracing imperfection when starting out, to making luck work in your favor, training your own digital mind with AI, and confronting the future of software, this episode delivers practical wisdom you can use right away. Dive into candid stories, actionable advice, and forward-thinking perspectives to build a more resilient life and business.

Topics Discussed

1. Starting Ugly vs. Waiting for Perfection: Jacob Gooden shares why jumping in and creating—even imperfectly—is more important than ever, and the power of intentionality behind launching your podcast or content.
2. Finding Your Format & Intentionality: The process of finding the right medium for your message (podcast, blog, YouTube, TikTok) and the importance of defining your ‘why’ before you start.
3. Navigating Opportunity and Burnout: Insights from Justin Abrams on increasing your surface area for luck in a tough economy—whether you’re just starting out or an experienced professional.
4. Demonstrating Employability: Why getting a job (even if it’s not perfect) builds skills, networks, and resilience.
5. AI in Entrepreneurship: How building your own "digital mind" with AI tools can free up your time, scale your impact, and create new business models.
6. AI Taking Your Job—A Blessing in Disguise?: Matt Wolfe presents a controversial take on why AI replacing unfulfilling jobs could open doors to more meaningful work.
7. The Future of Software & AI-to-AI Marketing: Exploring the coming revolution where software morphs into personalized AI tools, and marketing becomes “AI matching AI” for optimum results.

Episodes Featured

1. Jacob Gooden: https://youtu.be/-XuMp_MLS1U
2. Justin Abrams: https://youtu.be/f24mAbJX-90
3. Scott Duffy: https://youtu.be/X5YFv-gN2CI
4. Matt Wolfe: https://youtu.be/Aa39C3_U-qE
5. Joe Stolte: https://youtu.be/vxjG5yOH2EQ

Connect with Us

1. Chat with Joe's AI Clone: https://hustleandflowchart.com/aijoe
2. Newsletter: https://hustleandflowchart.com/subscribe
3. Podcast: https://hustleandflowchart.com/
4. LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joefier/
5. Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/joefier/

If you’re ready to embrace imperfection, build your surface area for luck, and leverage AI for lasting success—don’t wait. Subscribe to Hustle & Flowchart wherever you listen, join our supportive community, and start creating your own future today. Hit that subscribe button and share your favorite takeaway with us—your next breakthrough might be one episode away!

2025 was the year hype died and the real work began.

So we stopped asking if AI and new media would change things, and we started asking

ourselves, how do I use this to win?

So we're gonna break down this blueprint of the year through five specific lenses.

The first one, starting with my producer and friend Jacob Gooden,

on why starting ugly is better than waiting for perfection.

That's.

More than important than ever, I would say right now.

Then we have, next up is Justin Abrams on how to increase your surface area

of luck in a tough economy, Then we have my business partner, Scott Duffy,

who is gonna talk about the actual reality of how to train a digital

mind to scale you and your business.

Then we're heading over to.

My best friend and my old partner here, business partner and podcast

host Matt Wolfe, the AI guy.

He's going to come on here talking about a controversial take on why AI taking

your job might actually be the best thing that's ever happened to your career.

Then we're wrapping it all up with Joe Stolte on why software is dead and how AI

to AI marketing is actually gonna be how things change and how you sell forever.

So before we dive into the first clip with Jacob Gooden, make sure to hit

that subscribe button and make sure that you are ready to build a more

resilient business and life in 2026.

I like the conversations you and I have about the media.

You made a great point, which I want to go through, is like, it's never

been an easier time to actually create content and make something of yourself.

You know, put your voice out there.

There's so many different mediums now, like.

New ones, existing ones that are kind of having new shape shifter

moments, you know, like podcasts, going to YouTube for instance.

You have great insights there.

But also, um, like the why, because that, that's like, you see

the spectrum of different shows.

You have your own show.

It's like, oh, why even do this?

Like, why would you have this?

Or, and like, how can it look like, how can it be packaged up and done

consistently for the right reasons?

So I kinda wanna just talk about that.

Maybe we start there is.

Yeah,

Yeah, I don't know where, where you want to pick up there.

Yeah.

I think the why is really interesting because for, I mean, since before I

even worked for you, I, I was like, I'm gonna have a podcast, and I

bought the microphone and I sat on it for, I mean, what, five years?

Something cra I mean, it was longer than that.

I had it before.

I sat on it for like seven years just thinking about like,

what do I want my show to be?

I came up with all these ideas, I could do this, I could do that.

I was like relating into the music industry, so I was like, I'll do music.

Industry news.

And then I started working for you and I was like, I could do editor type stuff.

And then, um, during COVI, I had this idea.

I I, I got lonely during covid, like most of us did.

And, um, and I started having conversations with childhood friends.

We all grew up homeschooled.

And we would have these conversations about like, what it was like growing up

like that and then now being an adult and what's changed and who are we as

people now and, and, and all this stuff.

And so within that, it sparked this idea of like.

Oh, this might be the thing.

This might be the podcast.

Right?

And then it was like, okay, what's the intentionality behind it?

Because I don't wanna just like.

Be a bunch of people just sitting on a couch like yapping about nothing, right?

Like we need to have some kind of driving factor for it.

And so it, it kinda was like, okay, well let's think about that.

And it took another four or something years to, to like flesh it out.

But it, you know, I took way too long doing this.

I'll just, I'll just be honest.

Um,

It happens.

but, but it kind of landed on this space of like, okay, I wanna talk

about the good, the bad and the ugly of homeschooling and what that means.

And I wanna share individual stories.

About your experience, um, what it was like back then, what it's like today, how

it's shaped you into the person you are today with the intention of like, yeah,

it's like a support group for other people who went through that, but also for people

who are currently going through that.

Okay.

Does it get better?

Are you having a tough time for parents?

Kind of looking at it and making decisions.

I've interviewed my parents and we've talked about the, the mistakes they made,

but also the great things that they did.

Um, so anyway, I say all that to say like the intentionality behind it became very.

And it's changed even within the last, I've been going for nine

months, I think now with the podcast.

So it's, it's shifted even to be like, okay, we're starting to touch on deeper

topics than maybe I initially wanted to.

We're talking about deconstruction, we're talking about like, you know,

uh, heavy stuff that maybe needs a little bit of therapy sessions.

Yeah, exactly.

Parenting, we're talking about all this stuff.

That's, it is very heavy topic sometimes.

Not always.

We, we also touch on the fun laugh, laugh at it, cringey, homeschool stuff, but.

was this intentionality of like, let's find the spot.

And so that's when I work with people like yourself, like with working

on an RV podcast, like figuring out what is the reason you're doing

this, and then like, let's, let's find the space for that, right?

Where's the packaging fit the best?

Is it a podcast?

Is it a YouTube channel?

Is it a TikTok account?

Like.

It might not be any of those things.

It might be a blog.

Who knows?

We have to find that space.

That's the, that's the first thing, and then you can go from there.

I guess podcast, would you say podcast is like the best way to capture, because I,

when I think of content, like, I'll just give my thought on it really fast, is

I. And how I've coached a lot of people is like, Hey, you want to capture it?

At least, you know, audio and video, high quality.

We're using Riverside FM right now.

Is it perfect?

No, but no, no program is, you know, and make sure your equipment is compatible.

That's also something that we all learn along the way, but, uh, the, I

think of like capture, how do you, high quality capture, whatever the thing is

that you decide that you're gonna do.

And then, um, know that that can be turned into all sorts

of different types of content.

So like, in terms of the destination, you know, if you capture it well in,

in like this, like what we're doing at the highest quality, like 4K if you

can, because everything's on big TVs now, even, you know, YouTube videos.

So just, these are all like the things that I think about that

I know you've coached me on too, but like we've coached each other.

But are there any like, I guess like core principles, like foundational things that

before someone actually commits to it, like what, what should they have in mind?

Equipment wise?

Software process?

That's a hard one to answer because everything is a little bit different.

Right.

But, but I think the, we have a friend, Chris Krimitsos, he,

he has this like start ugly.

Philosophy and, and I'm, I'm with that.

My podcast is not super polished.

It's like sometimes it's recorded on Zoom.

That's just what's easiest for my guests.

So I, I also have to, there's a level to which you have to like,

meet people where they're at.

and so I think about like, yeah, of course you could go spend.

$5,000 and get a great camera and a mic set up and all these things.

Or you could just pull the thing that's in your phone, in your pocket, right?

Your phone, pull that out and just start figuring out how

to use this to make something.

Um, and that I think is like, what's incredible is like,

this is why it's so easy.

You could literally make an entire podcast just on this thing right here and.

There's apps of course, you know, Riverside is fantastic.

Love Riverside Descript is one that we highly recommend,

like they're all in ones.

But even just like if it's just you as a content creator, if you don't wanna

do interview stuff, like just use the camera app that's built into your phone.

Like just do it.

And then yeah, you could get a microphone.

There's of course, like wireless mics are great.

You can get wired mics.

I just upgraded my phone, so now I can plug my, my sick MV seven in directly

into my phone if I want to, like I can.

Yeah, of course.

But this is a $270 microphone, right?

I have, like we talked about tech issues.

I have like 150 to $200 camera set up that just wasn't working with Riverside.

Today I'm shooting this on my iPhone.

Um,

And I would, I, I didn't see a difference quality wise, honestly.

This might even be better.

So there you

very possible.

taken.

Yeah.

So it, it is one of those things where it's like, I also, like, I used a $15

webcam for years of like shooting, just like my tutorial content that

I would do use internally with teams of just like, I'm making loom videos.

Right?

Like I, I don't think it's always so much about like, oh,

you gotta have all of the tools.

You can get paid, use what's free.

Get started, but, but once you wanna upgrade, I think Descript

is like the easiest video editor.

Um, it's also, if you have a podcast, it's like a fantastic editor for that as well.

But if you, even if you wanna make YouTube content, you wanna make blogs, you want

stuff transcribed like you talked about, like you setting yourself up to make

things like six different ways is awesome.

It doesn't mean you have to make it six different ways.

Yes.

you gotta capture it somehow.

And if you're gonna capture it yourself or with someone else, do it right.

At least in, in a way that works.

are there any issues that you find or maybe like as you coach some folks or

whatever, like navigating opportunity and, you know, like, uh, issues in

getting passionate with an opportunity or, you know, because it's like it can

quickly lead to burnout for some folks if you don't approach it correctly.

so opportunity shows itself in, in quite a few different ways.

I often speak to young people that are in pursuit of their first job, and

the hiring market for juniors in any category right now is really difficult.

And you may be looking at a really long stint of unpaid internships and lots

of folks just cannot afford, literally financially afford an internship.

They quite literally need the income

Mm.

when that's the scenario, an opportunity comes calling.

Probably shouldn't have too much of an opinion about how you make money.

And it's always easier to find a gig when you have a gig.

Mm-hmm.

That's just a, that's age old wisdom and advice right there.

So it really depends on where you are in your career Projection.

It really depends on what your network looks like.

It really depends at where you are in your, in the stages of your career.

And so opportunity presents itself differently for the different stages.

If I'm talking to a younger audience, it is about being employable.

Demonstrate your ability to be employable.

So if you made it through high school and you didn't have a job.

I, I had my first job out.

I, I was 12 years old.

I was a ca golf course, super accountable.

It's the first time I, it is the first time I ever got told f you to my face

because of my performance with subpar.

That's a way to

fast,

heard that again.

And that's a way to learn again, is from some, some super rich local

that won't pay you for your round because you just weren't good enough.

And so that's a like.

Getting a job, demonstrating your employable, demonstrating

that you have a pursuit of skills no matter what job you get.

Again, the lens you look through, you could become passionate about

the core skills that you, that you stitch together for that experience.

Or you could just be slogged by it.

It could be a drag, but that's all about you, man.

Like that's all about the person.

And like it depends on the lens that you look in.

I can honestly say I've had some really horrible jobs in my life.

But I can do, I can dot 'em all together.

I can stitch every single job as a formidable experience, and I can tell

you a story from each one of those jobs that compounds today, 20 something

years later, into a professional career now opportunity for a more and

mature professional looks different.

It looks like promotional opportunities, it looks like is now the right time after

raising kids to start that business.

I always wanted to start.

It looks like the pursuit of financial freedom.

It looks like the pursuit of, of travel and calming down and maybe

distributing wisdom, and so opportunity presents itself depends on where you

are in the stage of your lifecycle.

But man, being a dad of young kids, being, being exposed to the youth and

to the next generation of professionals that are out there, the number one thing

that I implore is demonstrate employment.

I don't care where you had a job.

I don't care where you have a job currently.

I care that somebody else has a litmus test on you and that you're proven.

And now we can all grow into potential.

And again, the opportunity will give you new sets of skills to explore that

maybe you'll become a professional at.

So this is all a compounding experience.

I, I love it, man, because with that, yeah, that employable essence, I guess,

and however you get in that mode, it changes something in us as well, and

the way that we think things through.

And obviously if you need to get paid, if you've got that cash flow coming

in, you're feeling better, you're more, you're open to more opportunity.

You.

Yeah.

Those dark corners that in your mind are now lit up to something quite

different, you know, and, and things just show up and you're like, holy crap.

It was just

I'll give you, I'll, I'll give you another piece on it.

I talk about this all the time, uh, in the, in the, in the

lens that a lot of folks have.

Something in the way, probably something that has to do with social anxiety.

I, I had that for a long time in my career too, but I was like pushed off

the cliff into networking and, and putting myself out there and being my own

advocate and, and et cetera, et cetera.

Getting a, getting a job, whatever the heck it is.

Putting yourself in those uncomfortable situations, it

increases the surface area for luck.

So.

By opening up that avenue for yourself.

You may run into nobody, but you may run into the next thing that happens to you.

Good or bad.

Luck doesn't always have to be good.

It could be bad luck on that day that you run into, but if you

stay static, you can guarantee one thing is that momentum is cut off.

And so for anybody that is pursuing opportunity or they're passionate about

something and want to explore it a little bit deeper, again, I specialize

in that zero to market, that zero to one, that getting that minimum

imaginative product off the ground and like how can we figure out how to

increase our surface area for luck?

For young people, it's about getting a job, demonstrating talent, building

your small network, getting referrals, taking the next coffee break.

Just get out there and make a name for yourself.

For the folks that are a little bit mature in their career, you

have options now, you now you have experience, you have worldliness,

you have a little bit of wisdom.

You might, you have a network there.

The options are just different, but we're all kind of in the same pursuit

of where is the next opportunity coming from for me to say yes or no to?

And that comes back to increasing the surface area for luck.

That means like, yo, take the day off to go skiing.

To treat yourself to the afternoon to go get your nails done or

go go out with your friends.

It's not really about enjoying the moment.

If you're in pursuit of opportunity, you're hungry for it.

Every one of those outlets is an opportunity to connect

with a new individual, which opens up new opportunity.

You were the very first paid customer of Delphi.

You were the original innovator that was in on that in on that stuff.

I didn't know that until for a long time, but you're right.

Yeah, I was the very first paying customer.

That was like over two years ago now.

It was funny 'cause yeah, I was in the offices of Delphi.

I know you know this, but I'll just say it, uh, up in San Francisco, meeting

up with them back in March of this year, and that's where they told me,

Hey, it's our two year anniversary.

I was like, what?

Like literally the day.

And this is in front of their whole team, like 15 people or so, engineers

and everything, uh, maybe more.

And um, then that's when they told me, yeah, you're the

very first paying customer.

I was like, this is so cool.

I had no clue and it blew me away.

And um, that's amazing.

Yeah.

No, it's, it's cool.

But that's where I'm like, and that was just stumbled upon Twitter at

the time and I was just looking.

The story for me, really, I'll just set it here, is that I

wanted to make this podcast.

A two-way conversation.

I didn't want it to be me just talking at people listening or watching,

but I wanted to give them the opportunity to have a conversation

with me and the guests on here.

So you can have that two-way conversation, make it personalized and go deep maybe

on something that we didn't cover.

But you know, you can kind of like use the, the collective podcasts that

have been trained into this thing.

I mean, my Delphi has something like 14 million

words

trained into it.

So it's like's amazing.

Got a lot of

stuff.

Yeah.

That is so amazing.

And, and when you talk about like your use case, so my use case was,

you know, 18 months ago I started a, uh, a conference called AI Mavericks.

And I was looking for early ai, uh, business tool companies

to come out and present.

And I was introduced by you.

To Delphi.

And Delphi came out and, and when, when we were first, and they had very

few customers at the time, right?

'cause all this stuff is really new.

All this stuff is really early and, and, uh.

my use case was, I had shifted from where I used to teach.

I have a couple of of books out there on entrepreneurship, on startup

and scale and things like that.

But I wanted to move outta that space.

And I just wanted to talk to people about ai.

And what I found was people kept pulling me back into the old stuff.

How do I raise money?

How do I do this?

How do I do that?

And so I said to Andrew, our friend, uh oh, Andrew over at Delphi, you

know, I said, I said, this is my thing.

I want to spend all my time over here.

And he said, well, let's take all of the content that you have.

Let's take all three of your books.

Let's take all of your podcasts.

Let's take all the videos that you've shot.

Let's take, I had hundreds of articles and blog posts and things like that.

And he said, let's put 'em in there.

He said, let's just train your digital mind.

And from now on when somebody asks you, how do I raise capital?

Just send them to your website and have them ask you.

And the crazy thing is that from the first person who went on there, it'd

just be like, at first it seemed kind of weird to me and And I'm like, how is

gonna work?

But what I found was that from the, the first time somebody went on there,

they're like, man, that was awesome.

I was on your clone for 50.

I remember he said 50 minutes just talking and having this one-on-one conversation.

And it was about raising capital.

And so, you know, I have other friends, we have other friends who've done

the same thing, but now what they do is they'll charge, you know, X

number of dollars a month or something like that for that 24 7 access.

what that did for me is it gave me so much time back and it enabled me to focus

on the programs and the things that I wanted to do in my business, um, without

missing a beat with those particular customers or or leads or prospects.

that's the key thing is that it's, it's scaling you in a way where it

doesn't need to involve your time.

Um, so many people have, yeah.

They start with what is the thing that's bottlenecking

them in the business right now?

Where can you add more value, you know, to an existing community?

But then pretty quickly after, actually most of the time is they see how

well it's working like pretty quickly after, you know, you're onboarded, you

have the Strat, it's all programmed content's in there, then you start

thinking like, where else can I use this?

And then that's where we've seen a lot of people turn into and

like create a front end Yeah.

Lead gen type of experience that then can turn into a subscription.

Maybe it's a new, um, subscription, you know, revenue stream for

their business because of that.

Yeah.

All access pass basically.

Um, and it's, it's, and what I've heard is like, it's literally little

to no maintenance when it comes to.

These, these things obviously want to keep it up to date and check

in and make sure you're optimized with the new things coming out.

But it's a whole different type of me, uh, media really like, just like podcasting.

If you think about, now this is a different form a way it's modulating your

existing content, but you're technically creating new, uh, a way of engaging

people online or anywhere in the world.

back to the topic of like AI sort of taking jobs from people, um, I welcome it.

I

I.

here's the thing, like, There's this like double sort of thing that's happening

with people where they come home at the end of a long day and complain about

how much they hate their job, but then at the same time they jump on Twitter

and talk about how scared they are that AI is going to take their job.

Right.

I think the jobs that people don't enjoy doing, the ones where you're coming home

and you're complaining at the end of the day about how much you hate your job.

Those are likely the ones that AI is going to take first, right?

And like, why are you freaking out about that?

I like,

I don't want to be like unsympathetic.

I am very, very sympathetic.

I am very empathetic.

Whenever people talk about like their fears with AI, I like to listen.

I like to address them.

I like to talk about them.

I like to understand where all these, like all sides of things are coming from.

And so I know saying that sounds very unempathetic of like, Through your job.

You hate it anyway.

Why do you care about it?

Like, why do you care if you lose it?

Well, also, jobs create income and you need that income to survive.

And I, I understand that part of it.

But could we also possibly see this as like a blessing in disguise?

If AI takes that job, maybe it means you're going to move on to something

that you actually want to be doing.

Maybe it's something you actually enjoy doing.

Maybe it's something that You're not coming home at the end of the

day going, I hate my job, right?

Like maybe that's what it's going to create for you.

Maybe we can look at that glass half full verse glass, half empty side of things.

And look at this as like, if AI ends up taking your job, well, then a, it probably

wasn't the most skilled job in the world.

B it probably wasn't the most fulfilling job in the world.

Maybe this is that blessing that you need to go and find something that.

Is what you really want to be doing saying that, you know, I'll step off my

soapbox here in a second, but saying that there is no better time in the history

of humanity to go and create your own career, to go and build your own thing.

To go and create your own software product and try to sell it, to

create your own YouTube channel, your own podcast, your own blog,

your own sort of content business, your own agency to help other people.

It has never been fricking easier to do any of that.

You've got chat GPT.

You've got perplexity.

You've got tools to make graphics for you.

You've got AI tools to do SEO and copywriting for you.

You've got tools where you can give it a prompt and it will build software for you.

Like there has never been a better time.

To start building some little side hustles.

So when your job goes away, the one that you hate, the one that you say at the

end of the day, I, I hate my job, but also complain that AI might take it away.

Well, guess what?

Start building something else with everything at your disposal.

Because if you build something else with everything at your disposal, you

won't give a shit when it goes away.

In fact, you'll probably be cheering that now I get to focus my time on

the thing that I want to be doing.

All right.

So box off.

And you're damn right.

And yes, yes.

And if you are offended by anything Matthew Wolfe just told you,

uh, you should start listening to Matt Wolfe's videos more.

Uh, you know, mine too, but start building this stuff.

Like literally, if it's pissing you off, it probably means

there's some truth behind it.

But I feel like a lot of the world, you're absolutely, there's, I think

there's just a misunderstanding of what.

Is happening right now.

when I give keynotes, I, I'll have a slide that says The future of marketing,

and it's a picture of C3 PO and Han Solo.

You remember that scene at Star Wars?

Like, never tell me the odds, because today it's going to

be non portable intelligence.

It's like it's in your computer, it's in your phone, it's, but, and it'll

get to personalization where, why would I need to see a software screen?

Software is dead.

It has stage two cancer.

Like it's all gonna be talking to an LLM that gets the result for you, And

I've never heard software stage two cancer.

It's

Well, It's not, it, it's not gone yet, but it's, you

know, it's, and I don't wanna make light of cancer, you know, my father

passed away from cancer, so I don't want anybody to take offense to that.

I'm, it's just, it's just an analogy.

Like it's, it's not gone, but it's in trouble.

It

needs to be helped.

And, and, and the way that it's gonna be helped is things are gonna start

to look more like an LLM chat type personalized experience where it's

automatically updating and having almost like a C3 po conversation with

you in the computer or the phone.

Then if you've been paying any attention to robotics, it's, it's very quickly

gonna become portable intelligence.

It'll be that.

But in a robot helping you doing physical things in the real world

and talking to you and being connected to the internet.

So if your products and services aren't moving in that direction and

the AI vendors that you're working with don't seem to be trending in

that direction, there's a fairly good chance they're not gonna survive.

Yep.

I agree.

It's, it's almost like the way I see it, because, uh, and I want to talk

about this version in Del in, um, and not Delphi, but in, uh, daily AI is

essentially having these triggers and actions built into a system like Delphi

has that, it's almost like Zapier make.

To an extent built in within there before it can go out to another layer.

And I think, yeah, what you're saying is, you know, you have like the smart

intelligence of whatever software platform that makes it unique to you, but also

it could take actions on your behalf

Yeah.

And, and that's why having companies that are building with real machine

learning, like where they take your corpus of data, like your customer

interactions and your individual things,

and then they remember them and build on top of them.

'cause that's gonna be the critical input.

'cause eventually, um, and not, probably not that far from now.

It's gonna be AI is talking to ai.

You know, marketing will become, you know, it's, it's already here.

I've been saying this for about a year and a half, but like marketing is going

to become a member matching algorithm.

And it's really gonna come down to how good is your offer, where

you take your offer and you go to the marketing ai and you say, I

want I the ideal buyer for this.

And it will make the creative, it will write the

copy.

And when I say creative, I don't just mean imagery.

I mean the videos too.

Tiktoks doing it.

All the platforms are about to start doing it.

It'll make a fake influencer video, it'll publish it, and

it'll find who resonates the most.

It'll test where the drop off points are, and it'll optimize for it.

Now, if your offer is extraordinary.

Then what's going to happen is you will end up getting customers back for cheaper

than it costs for what they paid you.

You have a positive customer acquisition cost, and that's what,

that's where marketing's going.

So it's, it's already halfway there with, with the new, like you look

at Facebook, like they're absolutely getting away from interest targeting.

If you understand paid ads, it's just, give me your people.

Who do you want?

And gimme your offer.

You gimme like 10 versions of your creative and I will go find the thousand

weirdos that are weird like you and love your weird stuff, and hopefully it's.

Acquire them cheaper than what?

What they pay you.

That's we're already there.

So like that's where it's going man.

It's like AI is talking TOIs and doing all these workflows for you

and getting you customers and leads while you, well, you just work on

having great offers and products.

So like that's where all of these things are going.

And so if your products and services that you're buying from people

aren't moving in that direction, then they're probably not gonna survive.

Again.

That's a real thing.

And that, that may be okay,

but that's just the way it is.