If you had to rate your confidence in the mortgage industry in 2024 on a scale of 1 to 10, what number would you choose? For HousingWire president Diego Sanchez, it’s a solid 10—and for good reason.

As someone who interacts daily with lenders, vendors, and a best-in-class reporting and editorial team, Diego has his finger firmly on the pulse of the mortgage industry. Despite high rates, low inventory, and persistent inflation, he sees a wealth of opportunities on the horizon for originators and shares his top insights on how to capitalize on them.

Don’t miss this dynamic conversation between the industry’s most decorated sales expert and the president of one of the most influential (and fastest-growing) media companies in mortgage and real estate.

Dale and Diego cover a wide range of topics, from key data trends to the impact of technology and information on modern originations, the downstream effects of the NAR settlement, and the ongoing transformation of the valuation and title insurance industries.

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In This Episode

▸ How are lenders finding success in today's market? (starts at 4 mins 15 secs)

As president of a leading industry publication—and notably, one that hosts some of the fastest-growing industry events—Diego Sanchez has his finger on the pulse of which lenders are succeeding and which are falling behind. Hear his perspective on how the best lenders are navigating today’s market: containing costs, targeting niche growth opportunities, and leveraging data more effectively.

▸ The flight to quality (starts at 10 mins 10 secs)

The post-COVID market has, perhaps more than any other, separated the best from the rest in mortgage and real estate. Diego argues that this separation has enabled growing lenders to attract and retain top talent while avoiding—or, in some cases, shedding—underperforming employees.

▸ The role of information in modern originations (starts at 14 mins 17 secs)

The mortgage industry has an information problem. Why? In part because loan officers are failing to use the information at their fingertips to help clients make informed lending decisions. But more significantly, borrowers now have more access to information than ever before—yet much of it is preventing them from making the right decisions at the right time. That’s why HousingWire is committed to breaking down silos and providing our industry—and, through it, the American homeowner—with the full picture.

▸ Consequences of the NAR Settlement (starts at 23 mins 47 secs)

Are we living in a new world following the official implementation of the NAR settlement? Diego breaks down what he sees as the most significant downstream effects of the settlement, including a reduction in buyer’s agent compensation and a subsequent downsizing of buyer’s agents nationwide.

▸ Innovation in home valuations and title insurance (starts at 31 mins 12 secs)

The post-COVID housing market stress-tested every facet of the home loan origination process, including appraisals and title insurance, both of which were shown to be ripe for innovation. Diego shares his concerns about an aging appraisal workforce, the limited applicability of AVMs, and the mounting expense of title insurance. He also discusses opportunities to streamline those costs through regulatory changes and title insurance alternatives, including attorney opinion letters.

▸ The threat of servicers to non-portfolio originators (starts at 34 mins 50 secs)

With the Fed expected to cut interest rates within weeks of this episode’s release, the industry is poised for a refinance boom. However, many lenders have begun to worry about losing business to major servicers, who have strategically built up their database marketing capabilities and in-house origination teams over the past several years to capitalize on rising consumer demand. Diego shares his thoughts on the threat servicers pose to originators and how originators can prevent churn from their books of business.

▸ Where Diego believes the industry is headed (starts at 42 mins 48 secs)

Diego believes the industry is heading into calmer waters. As inventory normalizes, home value increases plateau, the likelihood of near-term rate cuts remains high, and inflation dips below 3%, he anticipates borrower demand will recover and, with shifting demographics, begin to grow. Additionally, a small refinance boom for late-cycle borrowers is on the horizon, which should provide lenders with a modest boost to reinvest in serving the next generations of American homebuyers over the next 15 to 20 years.

About HousingWire

HousingWire's mission is to break down silos and provide industry leaders with the full picture to move markets forward. They combine original data, analytics, technology, media, and events to support informed leaders.

🔗 Subscribe for free: housingwire.com/newsletter

🔗 Explore HW+ membership: housingwire.com/membership

About Diego Sanchez

Diego Sanchez is a digital media veteran with over a decade in executive management. He has held senior leadership roles at Travelzoo, Rodale, Adtelligent, and now serves as President of HW Media. Diego holds a Bachelor of Arts in Governmental Studies from Harvard and an MBA from Columbia Business School. Prior to entering media, Diego worked in both nonprofit and for-profit education. He lives in Brooklyn, NY, with his wife and two sons.

Connect with Diego

LinkedIn → linkedin.com/in/diegoesanchez

About Dale Vermillion

Dale Vermillion, an industry icon, has trained over 1,000,000 lending professionals and worked with more than 600 organizations. He is a three-time HousingWire Vanguard, a member of the 2022 Global Mortgage 100, and the author of Navigating the Mortgage Maze. Dale is also the founder of Mortgage Professionals Providing Hope.

Connect with Dale

LinkedIn → linkedin.com/company/dalevermillion

Facebook → facebook.com/dalevermillionofficial

X → x.com/dalevermillion

Website → dalevermillion.com

Email → listen@dalevermillion.com

About Batting 1,000

Batting 1,000 with Dale Vermillion is a production of Mortgage Champions. The show is produced and edited by Jake Vermillion. Music by Envato Elements.

Copyright © 2024 Vermillion Consulting, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Inventory

is creeping back up to a, to a more healthy place.

There are a couple of dynamics, um, that should lead to lower mortgage rates in the coming years.

And then home prices, which, um, have just been going up and up and up.

Um, those seem to have, plateaued and it really does seem like, like, like we're hitting that, that sort of flat line, which I think would be a very positive story because they've gone

up probably too much, uh, in terms of, you know, affordability for first time home buyers.

Um, it's, it's been a lot of, uh, a lot of home price increase.

Um, we still have this great demographic patch of, uh, millennials and then Gen Z who need to buy a home, who are, who are creating families.

creating households and need to buy a home.

And if, if you get rates that, you know, dial back into the, into the mid to high fives, like they could, that's a pretty big refinance opportunity.

And then you tack on the home equity opportunity because all these people have had such incredible gains and reverse mortgages.

Um, so, um, yeah, I think there's a lot of opportunity in the next two to five years, and I'm, I'm personally, uh, pretty excited about it.

You're listening to Batting 1,000 with Dale Vermillion, where heavy hitters from mortgage, real estate, and business share their secrets for lasting success

with your host award winning sales strategist and industry icon, Dale Vermillion.

All right.

Hello everybody.

And welcome to batting a thousand.

Where we have the heavy hitters in the mortgage industry.

And this is going to be an incredible conversation because, uh, we have today, uh, Diego Sanchez, who is the president of housing wire.

Uh, Diego is a digital media veteran been around a long time doing this.

Uh, in executive management, uh, host of the 10 minute talks, um, on LinkedIn.

If you haven't seen those, you should check those out.

He's also a former senior leader at Travelzoo, Rodale and Adtelligent.

So he's got a ton of experience in this industry.

Uh, comes with a batches of art in governmental studies from Harvard.

Wow.

Okay.

And also a MBA from Columbia Business School, lives in Brooklyn with his wife and his two kids.

And Diego, I also am going to add, I consider you a good friend.

And that's my favorite part about having you.

Uh, you and I had a chance to hang out together over dinner at the housing wire gathering event, which was the just an incredible, incredible event.

If you haven't signed up for the gathering for 2025, do it because you'll want to be there.

That was a great event.

And we want to open up by talking about your IMB summit that's coming up.

So Diego, welcome.

We're glad to have you here.

Talk to us about what's happening in housing where right now and, uh, what you're doing with this IMB summit come up.

You just came off the AI summit.

There's just a whole lot that's happening.

I'd love to hear some of the highlights that came out of those things and what you're planning coming up in October.

Well, Dale, first of all, I just really appreciate you having me on your show.

Uh, what an honor for me.

Uh, I always enjoy catching up with you and I also consider you a good friend Enjoyed chatting with you and and your better half, uh at the gathering.

That was really fun Really felt like we got to know each other Over the course of that dinner.

Um, so housing wires busy, you know, the, the, the, the news in mortgage and in housing overall has not slowed down at all in the six years that I've been with the company.

It's sort of big news event after big news event, uh, for the past six years.

So the summer continues to be busy for housing wire.

We did just launch a new.

Live event concept, which we're pretty excited about.

We call them one day summits.

Our first one day summit was on artificial intelligence and we sold out the George Bush presidential center auditorium for that event, which was really fun.

It's a really neat venue that where you get to see, um, you know, some of the history of that administration and our country.

Actually, some of the artwork that that George Bush has done is hanging up in the hallways, and it's just a really, really conducive environment for executive networking and learning.

And so all the feedback that we got from that event has been very positive, and we want to keep going with this concept of bringing the industry together.

for one day events around topics that are really resonating right now.

So when we came out of the gathering, you know, everyone was talking in sessions and in the hallways about artificial intelligence.

So that was our first one day summit made a lot of sense.

Um, I think another big topic at the gathering was, you know, what are independent mortgage banks going to do in this higher for longer mortgage rate environment?

How are they going to survive and even thrive?

And so that's the second one day summit we're calling it the IMB summit, but it's going to be focused on.

You know how people can win in this in this still somewhat difficult environment.

Um, so the IMB summit will be October 1st back in Dallas at the George Bush Presidential Center.

Uh, would really love to have, uh, you and Jake and, uh, all the members of your of your audience, uh, join us there.

Awesome.

So let's talk about that for just a minute.

What do you see?

You know, you see everything as president has where you've been doing this for six months.

I know that you've grown extensively in your role, but you've been there for a long time.

Um, and I know that you see everything.

You like me talk to executives every single day.

run mortgage companies.

You see what's happening out in the marketplace.

Um, talk from your perspective.

Uh, what are you seeing the trends to be in the marketplace and what are lenders doing to succeed in this marketplace?

Most importantly?

Yeah, that's a really good question.

And I think there are a couple of key things that I see In my conversations and in our coverage of the winners in this environment, um, and one of those is, uh, keeping a really close eye on costs.

Um, the, uh, the cost to originate a mortgage, and this is, you know, no secret, uh, the NBA puts out their, uh, their study every quarter.

Um, you know, it got up as high as, uh, you know, 13 and a half thousand on average, uh, per, per, per mortgage.

Which is insane, right?

Um, I think it's, it's come back a little bit, uh, you know, to, to mid 11s, but still when you think about, um, you know, margin compression and a difficult being in a difficult environment where the volume is not what it used to be.

Keeping a really close eye on costs and understanding your cost structure and the technologies that can potentially help you improve that cost structure, um, is super important.

Uh, and, uh, you know, probably butchered this a little bit, but the CEO of Freedom Mortgage at the gathering, you know, just his whole session was about, Hey, you got to make more money, you know, Per loan, then it costs you, right?

Like it, it's, it sounds very simple, but, um, a lot of lenders aren't there.

Um, and, um, and so that's, that's a really, really big one.

Um, I think another really big one is, um, despite how difficult the environment is, there are a lot of owners and executive teams that want to grow.

And our winning market share either organically and or through M& A.

Um, and so it's been really interesting to see the makeup of these organizations that are, you know, continuing to win.

Uh, in this difficult environment, um, and, uh, and so, you know, like taking a look at what they do and understanding how they're doing, what they're doing, um, seems like a really good recipe for, for, for success.

Um, so, and then the, the, the third thing, um, is, um, you know, there's like two key data points, uh, in, in the, in the housing market from my perspective, um, one is mortgage rates.

Right.

Um, and the other is inventory of homes available for sale.

Um, and, um, there are a lot of, uh, data providers out there and, uh, you know, media companies, um, that look at that data, you know, on a weekly basis or on a monthly basis, you know, home price indexes, um, that include inventory.

Okay.

It can sometimes be up a month, month, or two stale.

Um, it's really important to, um, attach yourself, um, to, uh, to a, a media company or, um, you know, a research company that is a little bit more timely with that data because it moves, uh, so quickly, uh, and so frequently.

That if you're looking at data that is a month stale or two months stale, that's not going to help you, uh, maneuver your business through, uh, you know, a still difficult environment.

Um, and so timeliness of the data and analysis of the data.

Um, I think it's really important to, uh, managing a business.

So, so let's talk about that a little bit more for just a minute, because you, you said some really important things there.

You talked first about costs.

I've always been a believer, you know, I, I consult to executives across the nation on how to succeed.

And we've got clients.

They're crushing it.

And I'm curious to, to hear from you, if you're seeing the same thing I'm seeing, what I'm seeing in this marketplace for the last two and a half years now is haves and have nots and nothing in between

either, either companies are absolutely slaying this market and they're happy where the rates are at, they're happy with what's going on, they're making a lot of money and they're closing a lot of loans or.

They're just dying on the vine and trying to figure out how to survive.

And those companies are the ones that latch on right away to that cost cutting idea.

Well, that's the way to profitability, but there's two sides of profitability.

There's cost cutting on one side and there's conversion on the other side.

You you've got to cut.

But you've got to convert at the same time.

And I think that's where the game is most highly accomplished that I'm seeing with my clients in the marketplace is the ones who understand that we're out of a volume market

that we were in in 2020 and 2021, we'd been in a conversion market for two and a half years.

If you're going to succeed, you got to start by cost cutting, but the thing you can't cut are the essentials that will allow you to convert more quickly.

Of your transactions and the funded loans.

So tell me based on that analogy, where do you see from your perspective?

Do you see this haves and have nots disparity and what are they doing to convert better?

You know, I think that there's, um, been a real flight to quality in, uh, the housing ecosystem.

Over the last two years si since we, since we saw things slow down.

Yeah.

Um, you know, the, during the, the pandemic housing boom, um, you didn't have to do much to, to to get business, right?

The business was kind of reigning on, on all the advisors, uh, you know, whether you're real estate advisor or, or mortgage advisor.

Um, but, uh, in a more difficult market, uh, you really see who the good.

Uh, loan officers are and who the good real estate agents are.

And I, it feels like consumers are gravitating towards those folks who are, uh, you know, the, the 90, 10 LOs, right.

The, the,

the, the

10 percent of, of LOs that are, that are doing 90 percent of the business.

And it's even more dramatic on the real estate side, you know, the 5 percent of real estate agents that are doing 95 percent of the business.

And so I think that The organizations that are able to retain, well, first of all, attract, uh, and, uh, recruit and then retain those winners, um, are, are the, the ones that I think are

able to move the needle and win market share because, you know, even though, um, you know, the housing market, you know, It definitely, uh, took a, took a pretty deep dive, uh, from the boom.

Um, there's still going to be, you know, 4 million or so homes sold every year.

Uh, and so there's still business for, uh, you know, a strong core of, of loan officers and real estate agents.

Um, and, uh, you know, I think that the, the, the winners are winning more business in this environment.

Um, they're able to show their value, uh, they're able to be strong advisors, um, and they're able to, uh, work with borrowers and potential borrowers.

Who, uh, you know, uh, maybe have more unique or difficult situations.

Um, so, um, you know, I think the winners are winning.

I love what it's, it's fun for me to hear you and your position as the president of Hollywood Wire really is a company that really provides the

best data and information and publications out there today to keep people informed.

And yet what you're talking about as the key to success is really built around the relationship, the value prop, the customer experience, how they're treating customers just saw a report that came

out from lending tree where they did a study of tens of thousands of consumers who closed loans and.

Over half of those 53 or 54 percent work with the first lender they talked to, which was so interesting.

And, and what that tells you is that consumers, when rates are up, are more concerned about somebody explaining to them, why should I buy in this market?

Or why should I refinance in this market?

Or why should I use my equity in this market?

Then my rates a quarter percent less than somebody else where I'm seeing the disparity in the industry today is.

The companies that are still focused on being very transactional.

are failing miserably and the ones that are very relational are succeeding greatly.

That's to me where the divide happens.

And you mentioned in a moment ago, you talked about being an advisor.

The companies were winning.

They have an advisor mentality.

They're built on a great customer experience.

They look at providing their customers with Loan officers that really know how to build that strong relationship, provide that great value proposition.

So it all ties into what success is within this industry today.

It's about really treating that customer differently than you did in 2020 and 2021, where you could be transactional and get away with it, but you can't today.

So let's talk for a little bit about the importance of.

Information because that's where you guys are so powerful.

I couldn't do my job if I didn't have access to housing wire and all of the data and all of the articles and all of the information that you guys provide on a regular basis, talk about the importance from your perspective.

of lenders and loan officers alike, all the way down to the originator level, the importance of having the right data, the right information, understanding the marketplace.

And then what do you do with that?

When you get it, how do you respond?

Talk about that from your perspective.

Yeah.

I mean, it gets back to what we just talked about.

Uh, it's really hard to be.

a good advisor, uh, if you don't know what's going on in the market, what's going on with the data, uh, yeah, and specifically your, your local market.

Um, and, uh, so, you know, being a good advisor just really requires you to, to be smart, uh, on what it is you work on.

Um, and if you're a loan officer.

Um, you work in the housing market.

And so, you know, w w what's happening with inventory in the markets that you cover, um, what's happening with home prices, uh, what's happening with rates,

even though we can't control rates, you need to know what's happening with them.

Right.

Uh, and having a good feel for, you know, where they're heading.

Um, so that you can give that really good advice to your client and also like knowing your products, you Um, you know, it's a, uh, in a more difficult market, um, you know, it's not

just, it's not just conforming loans, um, that are, that are going to win you business, right?

You've got to, you've got to know about, you've got to know about non QM.

Uh, you've got to know about home equity, right?

Like you've got a bunch of clients who are sitting on a pretty nice, uh, pretty nice gains, uh, from, you know, those, those home price gains over the past, Uh decade, um, and so you've got you've

got to know home equity um and uh, so knowing your products Knowing the data and Knowing what's happening more broadly Um in the news that will impact Uh, the housing market is really important too.

So like right now Uh, we're in the middle of an election season and it might be a very different housing market You under, uh, under the different candidates that, that we've got.

Um, uh, so understanding how things might change, um, is, is super important.

Are we going to, uh, be getting into more of a refinance situation again?

Um, because rates have come down so much recently.

Um, it's, it's, it's really good to understand all of that stuff.

Again, so you can provide that really good advice to your clients.

And if you give that good advice, um, that's where your business comes from in the future, not only from them when they, you know, do another transaction down the road, whether that's refinance or, or buy a new house.

Um, but those referrals are golden.

Um, you know, if you, if you give somebody a good experience, um, most people, um, you know, get a referral.

Well, In terms of mortgage get a referral from their real estate agent or from their family, right?

So if you're if you're giving someone a good experience Um based on that information that you know That's going to be a winner for you.

I love that.

I just interviewed a couple months ago I had a loan officer on that has been a client, uh works for a client of mine for many years Closing 60 loans a month in this marketplace, 60 loans a month.

And he made the statement.

I said, so what's the number one key to success?

And he echoed what you just said.

He said, you've got to be the smartest person in the transaction.

That's all there is to it.

You've got to be the person that understands the market, understands your products, understands the process, understands every aspect of it.

And you've got to be more articulate than anybody else are going to talk to.

And they're not going to care about your rates at that point, because when rates are in the sixes and sevens, a quarter percent doesn't move the needle for a borrower.

What moves the needle is who's the most knowledgeable person that gave me the best advice when I worked through.

So let me ask you this question because.

We're talking about the importance of having access to information and data about the market so you can be that good advisor.

But what I tend to see happens a lot is that can also lead to this negative thing called analysis paralysis, where we've got, we've got originators that All they do is they live by what rates are doing.

And as a result, when rates go up, their attitude drops, they're, they're, they're not positive with their customers.

And they're given many times wrong advice.

When rates go down, all of a sudden they get excited and it changes and they get caught up in the information where it actually can become detrimental to them.

I know with the companies that I train every single month, you know, we, we train thousands of loan officers across the nation and dozens of mortgage companies every single month.

I'm always making sure that I'm pulling out, out of the headlines.

What are the things you really need to know to help you succeed in this marketplace?

And those are things like where's inventory heading?

Very, very important.

Where's affordability at?

How do you improve that?

You know, not what our rates, because rates are what they are, but how do you best take advantage of the rates so you get the lowest payment you can.

Talk from your perspective.

How do you see lenders Working through and what's your advice to get the right information, but don't get caught up in that trap of letting it become a negative force, but keep it as a positive force.

Yeah.

I mean, it's, it's tough because there is a lot of noise.

There

is,

there's a lot of noise.

And so I think it, uh, I think it comes down to finding, um, a couple of resources.

and information sources that you trust and that aren't, um, you know, are consistently not, uh, doing clickbait headlines.

They're consistently, uh, really giving you an understanding and a good analysis of, of where things are heading.

Um, and they're, they're as unbiased as possible.

And, um, you know, just bringing you the information, um, and, um, and helping you understand it.

Um, so I, I, I think it's, you know, because there are so many sources out sources of information out there.

Yep.

Um, And a lot of them are, you know, candidly, uh, inaccurate about the housing market, especially when you look at, um, uh, media companies that, um, don't do housing media for a living, they kind of dip into housing every once in a while.

Uh, you know, I'm thinking of, you know, the really big mainstream news outlets.

Um, they're really good at bringing general news and information about what's happening in the world.

But sometimes when they try to dip into housing and give you a perspective on housing, It's wrong.

It is not accurate.

Uh, and so I, I think it's really important to, um, you know, you want to know what's going on in the world, but if you want to know what's going on in housing, um, find a couple of trusted sources, um, that, that bring it to you in a way.

That is, that is not clickbaity, that is not sensational, and that is fact based, uh, and that gives you good analysis.

Um, so I think

that's one of them.

I think you just defined housing wire.

Yeah, I mean, I, I, I, that, that's really what we try to do.

I mean, that's, I, you know, again, I've been, I've been at the company for six years.

Uh, when I joined, the newsroom was already incredible.

I think the company already had a really good reputation in mortgage, but what we've done over the past six years is we've broadened the lens.

So we're still very smart on mortgage.

We still track mortgage very closely, but we're looking at the entire housing ecosystem now.

And I think that's important because And we should talk about this a little bit.

What's happening in real estate with the commission lawsuits and the NAR settlements, uh, what's happening in appraisal, you know, with there not being enough appraisers, um, and, uh, you know, what's

happening in title, uh, all these things impact the loan officer and lenders so much that you can't.

Stay in a silo when it comes to the housing market, you've got to understand, um, what's happening, you know, with, with your, with your real estate partners and your title partners and your appraisal partners.

And I love how you guys deliver the information.

I love the housing wire member digest, how it's broken down and really simplified for people that don't understand the raw data.

You and I deal in that all the time.

So.

We can look at the raw data and pull out what we need to know and go forward.

But for the average originator or even manager, for that matter, a lot of times they don't know how to do that.

You guys disseminate that information properly so that people really understand.

So let's talk about those three things you just mentioned, because that was actually three of the things I wanted to discuss with you based on what I've seen.

Come on, let's start with the NAR settlement.

Where do you see that at?

Where do you see that going?

August 17th, right around the corner.

So let's talk about that for just a minute.

It is.

It's a new world.

It's, it's, it's a new normal and there are going to be a lot of impacts.

That, um, that loan officers and lending executives need to be aware of, um, because, um, there might be a lot fewer buyers agents out there.

Yep.

Um, and you know, what's the number one source of, um, Business and referrals for a lot of LOs.

It's the buyer's agent.

Right.

Um, so.

You know, just like we're seeing a flight to quality on, uh, on the mortgage side.

That's happening in real estate, but it's almost like I'm turbo.

Um, because, um, you don't have as a, as a listing agent and as a seller, uh, you no longer have, have to, uh, list.

Buyer's compensation, buyer's agent compensation, um, in your listing on the MLS,

right?

And you

no longer have to offer it.

Right.

Um, and so what that means, you know, a lot of times when, when you buy a house, Um, you're not, uh, you're not paying your agent, you're not paying your buyer's agent out of pocket.

Um, it's actually coming from the seller.

Um, so the seller is paying a commission to their, to their listing agent.

And that listing agent in the past, um, was split splitting that, that commission with the buyer's agent.

Um, and so a lot of that is going to go away and there will still be, uh, commission splits and sharing.

Um, it's just going to be a whole different ball game in terms of how that's communicated.

And there are going to be a lot of listing agents, especially if we're in a buyer's market who say, I don't really need to give much.

compensation, um, because it's hot.

Like I'm going to get a lot of offers and no matter what, so I'm going to, I'm going to keep more of that, of this commission.

And so what that means is.

They're going to be a lot of buyers agents who are trying to figure out how they're going to make, make their money, make, make their commissions.

Uh, and so you may see models where they're charging by the hour.

You may see buyers agent commissions go down fairly significantly and that will push out.

a certain number of buyers agents who can no longer cut it, uh, who can no longer make a living off of, off of, off of commissions.

Um, and so understanding that dynamic and thinking about where your referral partnerships should be, you want to pick those buyers agents Who are the winners and who are going to keep doing business?

Um, maybe you want to get more uh close to Listing agents.

Yep, because listing agents might be making those mortgage referrals Um, maybe you want to figure out a way to get to that lead yourself, that home buying lead yourself.

Um, and maybe you share that with a real estate agent, maybe you hire a real estate agent onto your team.

Uh, you've got, and you've got a buyer's agent on your team.

I think there's all sorts of ways that people can look at, um, what's happening with, with commissions from those lawsuits in the settlement, but it is going to be changing and it's going to be changing quickly.

Like you said.

Uh, the 17th is when, um, uh, this is finalized and these changes have to be in effect.

Um, but there are some states and regions that are doing it earlier.

Um, there are several MLSs that have already removed, uh, buyer's agent compensation from listings.

Um, and so, uh, the changes are going to be fast and furious.

And.

It will be really, really important to be tied to an information source.

That is tracking this very closely and what the different real estate brokerages are doing what team leaders are doing What individual agents are doing?

um on the buyer and the selling side And how that is impacting?

The referral partnerships that are the lifeblood of of loan origination um, so yeah, it's it it's it's going to be really important over the next You Three to six months to stay close to this story.

And again, that trusted information source, a couple of those information sources.

You know, you want to be understanding, you know, what's happening with these commission lawsuits in the settlement.

I think the one thing that we can certainly, uh, uh, agree on, and we know is already going to happen is the low producing real estate agents on the buyer side will be out of the market.

It's, it's just going to be the ones that really were doing a lot of business that listing agents will want to continue to have relationship with and work out.

And there's a lot of dual agency or dual relationship happening now where The listing agents are going to take the buyer side and the listing side both.

So it becomes dual representation on that, which isn't great for the consumer.

Um, because you really don't have anybody then who's protecting you on the, on the offer side, because it's in the best interest of the listing agent to sell it, but also represent the buy.

So that's one of the biggest concerns in this whole thing.

Dale, if I were to guess on that, that dual agency situation, um, I, that, that could be an area that, uh, the Department of Justice, um, goes after next.

I would, I would think so.

Because if you, you just said it, like, if you just think about it logically, um, Both sides cannot be, um, adequately represented, uh, if one person is representing both

sides, one of the, one of the sides is getting the shaft in that, in that, in that situation.

And, and so I don't think that that is, that is going to be an outcome of all the stuff that has happened.

Uh, and I think it's an unfortunate outcome and my guess is there will be more litigation.

In that area.

So that, um, you know, really both sides should have a trusted advisor.

Uh, and so we have, but we have to figure out a way.

To properly compensate the buyer's agent because they do a lot of work.

It's, it's, it's, it's, it's a tough job and the good ones, um, really save their clients a lot of money, uh, negotiate well for their clients.

And if it's a first time home buyer, I mean, it is such a complicated transaction.

They do a lot of work to, to, to, to simplify a very complicated transaction for that first time home buyer.

So I don't think they go away, but you know, we've talked about this already.

And to your point, um, I think there are going to be a lot fewer of them.

Well, and what we're teaching our clients and I'm teaching originators across the country is this is also very opportunistic for a loan originator, because if you are incredibly knowledgeable on the process

and you can educate the borrower where the real estate agent Used to do that function you become that much more valuable to the borrower in the process and Less and less chance you're going to go to your competition.

So that becomes the opportunity All right Let's close out by talking about um the other two things the appraisal problem and the title issue that you were talking about That we're seeing in the marketplace talk about that for a few minutes.

Yeah, so um We really noticed this during the pandemic boom when um Um, uh, there were just a lot of, uh, logistical issues that came up in the valuation process.

Um, and there weren't, there weren't enough appraisers and there aren't enough appraisers.

Um, it is an industry that for a number of reasons, um, has, you know, most of the, uh, workers approaching retirement age, uh, and will likely retire in the next decade.

Um, and so, um, we already had an issue.

Um, uh, that we saw during, during the last boom and, you know, housing is a cyclical business.

So there will be another boom.

There hasn't been anything that's been done to really fix the problem of there not being enough appraisers.

Right.

Um, and so, um, you know, you know, maybe it's, maybe it's technology and, and, and we've got to integrate, uh, AVMs more, uh, automated valuation models more into the process.

You know, maybe when you look at, um, you know, more standard type properties, um, you know, you, you have to do less when it comes to getting a, a, a fully licensed appraiser involved,

uh, and maybe like, that's a way to, um, uh, to, to skip some of the logistical hurdles.

But, uh, there's still an issue there, and, um, it's not one that can be fully, uh, fixed by technology.

I think that that that industry is going to have to figure out how they, um, integrate trainees and new blood more quickly, um, is very difficult to become an appraiser.

Um, and, uh, and, um, there's a whole apprenticeship model, um, that doesn't really make a lot of economic sense for the people who are going to be training.

Right.

The fully licensed appraisers.

Um, so there's just a lot of, a lot of complication, um, that is, that will need to be solved before the next housing boom that will, you know, come in the next couple of years.

And, uh, so hopefully that, that will happen and, and maybe we integrate more use of, of, of, of ABMs.

And then with, with title, um, you know, I think, I think the issue there that's, that's pretty interesting is, um, you know, do you need title?

Um, or do you need the full title process?

Uh, when you're doing things like a refinance, um, uh, on a property where, where the title was fully established, uh, in the original transaction, um, you know, are, are there ways that you could reduce some fees there?

Um, you know, the title industry.

Um, also has some competition from, um, uh, attorney opinion letters and other title alternatives.

Um, so, you know, could those bring the cost down, uh, of title, um, uh, you know, going forward.

Um, so just a couple of issues going on there that I think will, will have a significant impact.

Um, on, on, on the transaction.

Well, because the cost of the transaction has just become so high now and in an affordability tough market, you know, the consumers need every break they can get.

If you can find it, you know, I think, I think another, another, another area that, that we didn't touch on, um, that I think is, is really relevant to, to your audience is, um, is what the servicers are doing.

Um, we, we shouldn't sleep on, uh, on the servicers because they are the big ones, like Mr.

Cooper, New Rez, Penny Mac.

They are amassing gigantic servicing books, and they are building, and we discovered this at our AI summit, and we talked a lot about it because we had, you know, CEOs of

these different servicers, uh, giving, giving talks and presentations at the AI summit.

They're building technology to originate from that servicing book.

Uh, and so when you think about like the opportunity that's going to be out there, uh, to originate.

The services are going to be taking a bite of that apple.

Um, and so when, when you think about retention and how am I going to stay in touch, um, with my borrowers, with my customers?

Uh, it's really important to do that and to do that in a way that adds value.

Yep, because those servicers Um are going to be making a lot of offers Uh to your clients, right?

Um, and so, uh, just being aware Of the businesses that they're building and aware of their intention To do massive origination from that those servicing books It's just another competitor

that you got to be aware of as you think about your business plan for the next couple of years.

Yeah.

And it can't just be a technological touch.

It's got to be a human touch is what really happens.

Yep.

Yep.

Absolutely.

So final question, where do you see from your perspective, the industry going in the next?

Well, I think it's actually going to be a fairly positive story.

Um, I think that, um, I, this has been a rough couple of years and, you know, it's been rough for, uh, lenders.

It's been rough for, for, for real estate companies.

Um, you know, it's been difficult at housing wire.

You know, we, we, we're not immune to the challenges of the housing market, but it's, it feels like a number of, when you look at the data, Um, there are a number of very, very positive signs.

Um, so, uh, so one, uh, inventory is creeping back up to a, to a more healthy place.

It has been very unhealthily, unhealthily low for a number of years, even during this difficult market.

There was just no, no good inventory out there.

Um, and so, um, you know, we've been looking at this over the past couple of months.

Um, and, uh, it, it is, is definitely going up and there are several states.

Where there's more inventory than there was back in 2019 when we had a more balanced market.

Um, and so I think inventory is a very positive story.

Um, I think mortgage rates, I mean, you never know what's going to happen with mortgage rates, right?

But it seems like there are a couple of dynamics, um, that should lead to lower mortgage rates in the coming years.

Um, one is, you know, it does seem like the Fed has Successfully, um, you know, beating down inflation and there is a decent chance that they are going to come

in for the soft landing, um, with, with our economy, which is, would be amazing.

I don't know if they've ever done that before.

Um, so we'll see if it, if it actually happens.

Um, but that, that would be really great.

And, um, the spreads between, um, between treasuries and mortgage rates.

Thanks.

You know, which are a signal on like volatility and how comfortable people are with with mortgages in the housing market.

Those spreads have really narrowed over the past 6 to 12 months, and it seems like they will continue to narrow now again.

Something could happen that, that throws the world into chaos and then all bets are off, but it looks like the spreads will continue to narrow.

So, you know, that second data point of, of mortgage rates.

Um, uh, seem to be coming down.

Uh, and then home prices, which, um, uh, have, it's been great for homeowners because they've just been going up and up and up because of that lack of inventory.

Um, those, seem to have plateaued.

Um, and if, you know, we, we update our Altos research data every week, um, and it really does seem like, like, like we're hitting that, that sort of flat line in home prices.

And if you look at, um, the percentage of, uh, home listers who are dropping their prices, um, that is creeping up.

Um, and that's a signal that those home prices will either, you know, stay flat or maybe even decline a little bit, which I think would be a very positive story because they've gone up probably too much.

In terms of, you know, affordability for first time home buyers.

Um, it's, it's been a lot of, uh, a lot of home price increase.

Um, so if you look at all those data points, It's it's a really positive story.

Um, and then, um, you know, if we, if we can, in fact, have, uh, a relatively soft landing in the economy, um, we still have this great demographic patch of, uh, millennials and then Gen Z who need

to buy a home, who are, who are creating families, creating households and, and need to buy a home.

So I think it's going to be, I think it's gonna be a good couple of years.

Uh, and then you add on to that, that like there are millions and millions of people who have gotten mortgage rates, who have gotten mortgages with rates in the, in the sevens.

Um, and if, if you get rates that, you know, dial back into the, into the mid to high fives like they could, um, in, in 2025, uh, or maybe they even go a little bit below that.

That's a pretty big refinance opportunity

it is

And then you tack on the the home equity opportunity because all these people have had such incredible gains and people want to age in place So, you know, they got to do repairs on their home um, and uh, you know There's

a lot of dynamics that, that, that lead to home equity potentially being an area that will boom and reverse mortgages.

Um, so, um, yeah, I think there's a lot of opportunity in the next two to five years.

And I'm, I'm personally pretty excited about it.

Me too.

You and I are on the same boat.

I think literally this is right now, one of the most opportunistic markets we've seen in a decade.

Um, when you look at the amount of equity that consumers have to work with to build wealth and pay off debt, the amount of debt that's out there today that needs to be

eliminated, you know, people are paying 28 percent when they could pay that off at 6.

5%.

It doesn't seem so bad anymore when you do that.

And, um, these are things that can really create opportunities and the purchase market just gets better and better.

And better every day.

Inventory has been going the right direction.

Logan Matashami, who, you know, is the analyst for you guys that, you know, dear friend, one of the great greatest analysts in the country when it comes to providing information is constantly talking about the inventory improvements.

And, and that's been a really good sign that we've seen.

So I'm as excited as you are.

Well, let's close out.

Thank you so much.

First off for, for being on here, Diego, you are just such a light, um, in the industry and so much knowledge.

Talk to us about what people should be doing, what are the lenders watching this, the executives watching this, and even the loan officers watching this.

Um, what should they be doing from an information standpoint to reach out to housing wire?

What are the conferences they should be attending?

What are the things you guys are doing that lenders and originators should be involved in, um, right now?

Yeah, I've got a couple, I've got a couple of recommendations.

Um, so one, um, I think our editor in chief, Sarah Wheeler, uh, has by far the best podcasts In housing, housing, housing, our daily, uh, that is a really

excellent way to stay in touch with everything that housing where it has going on.

So Logan goes on that show twice a week.

Uh, James climbing the managing editor of our newsroom goes on once or twice a week.

Mike Simonson, the president of Altos research, which we acquired last year, um, goes on regularly.

Um, it is such a great show for keeping your, your, your finger on the pulse of what's going on in housing.

Um, so sticking with, uh, Mike Simonson and Logan Motoshami just for a second, uh, they are two of the best forecasters in housing and analysts in housing.

Um, and they both do weekly work.

Uh, and research and analysis that I think is pretty helpful to, to, to stay in touch with, uh, so Logan does the weekly tracker, which you can just find on, on, on housing wire and it goes out in all of our

newsletters, uh, and, and Mike Simonson actually on the Altos research YouTube channel does this really great.

Weekly 10 minute video where he just breaks down, this is what's happening in the housing market.

It gives all the data, inventory, home prices.

Um, and, uh, it's a really great way to keep track of, uh, housing market data on a weekly basis.

And then I have to mention again, um, especially for your audience.

Our upcoming IMB summit, the agenda is being put together by Sarah Wheeler, our editor in chief.

She's amazing at putting together content and bringing the best speakers in the industry together to deliver that content.

Um, so October 1st.

Back in Dallas.

Um, and again, you can just, you can find a link to, uh, the IMB summit, uh, website on housingwire.

com.

Um, I think those are the big things that, that will help, you know, the, the podcast, keeping in touch with what Logan and Mike are thinking about and writing about, uh, and then the IMB summit.

Well, and, and access to the housing wire.

Information every day.

I mean, being a housing wire member, housing wire plus member is even better.

Um, so you get access to all of the information.

Um, that would be my recommendation to everybody in the mortgage industry.

So you guys do an incredible job with the information and have such a great team.

Clayton and Leslie and yourself and Logan and Sarah, it's just the dream team.

It's really what it comes down to.

We, uh, we, we, we do have a lot of fun.

Um, and I think that.

You know, the people who come to our events can see it in person.

We actually like to hang out with each other.

Um, and we like to hang out with the industry, um, and learn together, uh, network together and have, have a good time together.

Um, so appreciate that feedback.

Um, I, I, I love the team.

Uh, I think it's, I think it's a great team.

Uh, it's the team that Clayton and I have built over the past six years.

Uh, and it's been a, it's just been a great journey.

Awesome.

Well, I can tell you, uh, after 30 years of doing conferences, hundreds and hundreds of them, that gathering conference that you guys had in Scottsdale was unbelievable.

It was, it was a great networking conference.

It was great information.

It was timely.

It was short pieces.

So you didn't have people talking to you for an hour and a half and you're, you know, can't keep attention.

It was really done.

As good as any conference I've ever seen.

Kudos to you guys.

I

appreciate that.

Yeah.

You know, as, uh, as executives.

We think about how we like to experience conferences and, uh, you know, unfortunately, how short our, our, uh, you know, my attention span is at times and, and it, there's not, there's

nothing, um, that, that you can say in, in, in 30 minutes that you can't say in 15 minutes.

That's right.

And it's going to be way more punchy.

That's right.

And people are going to remember it a lot more.

If you deliver it in 15 minutes, right?

Because if it's 30 minutes, you're kind of looking at your phone.

You're, you know, you're talking to the person next to you.

Um, you lose the focus.

And so we do try to keep the sessions to, you know, 15 to 25 minutes.

25 minutes is max, right?

Um, that's like a, a really interesting panel or something.

Um, just the key again, you know, the key to conferences is like, Okay.

Can I just take away, you know, a handful of nuggets, um, that I can integrate back into my business.

Um, and so when you keep those sessions punchy, it makes it easier to, uh, to deliver those nuggets.

Well, Diego, great conversation.

Thank you again for your time and for your willingness to do this.

Uh, so appreciate your friendship and your partnership with housing wire.

Um, thanks for what you guys do for the industry.

Uh, we, we could not be who we are without you guys.

So we want to thank you for that.

And, uh, I look forward to the next time I get to see, which will probably be in October and Dallas isn't, you know, in October, it's not 150 degrees there.

So it's a nice time to be in Dallas.

It might actually be a really good time to be in Dallas.

Um, so I really look forward to that as well and hope you have a great rest of your summer.

You too, Diego.

Thanks so much.

So that wraps up another, uh, batting a thousand where we interview the industry's heavy hitters today.

Again, we had Diego Sanchez, great conversation, great interview.

Uh, we'll look forward to seeing you guys on the next one until then.

God bless.

Have a great rest of your month.

Thanks everybody.

Batting 1000 is a production of Mortgage Champions, a company that's been transforming the people who transform companies since 1995.

Have a suggested topic or guest?

Contact my team on Twitter, that's at Dale Vermillion, or tweet us using the hashtag Batting1000, that's hashtag Batting1000.