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Extinction: Thylacine, Ghost Tiger of the Feywild
Episode 1310th December 2021 • Making a Monster • Lucas Zellers
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The thylacine of Tasmania becomes the ghost tiger of the Feywild: a tragic figure as enchanting as it is terrifying. Get three extinct animals raised to life as monsters in D&D: https://store.magehandpress.com/products/book-of-extinction-preview

Episode transcript: https://scintilla.studio/monster-extinction-thylacine/

Guides:

Steve Sullivan, Director of the Hefner Museum of Natural History at Miami University

http://miamioh.edu/cas/academics/centers/hefner-museum/

Kieran Suckling, Executive Director and Founder of the Center for Biological Diversity

https://www.biologicaldiversity.org/

Andrew Coons, First Watch:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCu5p4VD1CxwndFhal7DF0mA

House Sivis Echoer Station:

https://www.sivisechoerstation.com/echoes/cyre-once-again

"Extinction Theme" by Alexandre Miller, The Boy King of Idaho

Like this stat block? Did I miss something? Let me know on Twitter: www.twitter.com/SparkOtter

Transcripts

Lucas:

Welcome to Making a Monster: Extinction.

Lucas:

This is the companion podcast to Book of Extinction, a monster manual where

Lucas:

animals lost to the natural world are resurrected for Dungeons & Dragons.

Lucas:

Every episode features one of the creatures in that book and shows you

Lucas:

how we expressed its history, ecology and folklore in a D&D stat block.

Lucas:

This episode, the thylacine.

Lucas:

A study in four parts.

Part the first:

what am I looking at?

Part the first:

Usually when we think of extinction, we think of cave paintings or fossils

Part the first:

or colonial era field notes, but as the sixth mass extinction of life on

Part the first:

earth accelerates, we find ourselves more and more often with pictures.

Part the first:

In a case of at least one, we have video.

Old Timey Man:

The Tasmanian tiger, easily distinguished by his striped, unjointed

Old Timey Man:

tail, is also a dangerous opponent.

Old Timey Man:

Though, like the devil, is now very rar,e being forced out of its natural

Old Timey Man:

habitat by the march of civilization.

Old Timey Man:

This is the only one in captivity in the world.

Andrew Coons:

So it's some sort of - man, it looks dog-like.

Rebecca Gray:

If I was like blindly telling an artist how to draw

Rebecca Gray:

this, I would say a mangy almost.

Rebecca Gray:

Hairless short hair, dog, a wild dog for the front.

Andrew Coons:

Like the face looks like a dog slash bear.

Lucas:

I am disappointed it doesn't open its mouth.

Steve - Sivis:

Oh my God.

Steve - Sivis:

I would love to see that.

Steve - Sivis:

What is, what is going on in there, sir?

Andrew Coons:

And then the body is quite dog-like, but the tail is like long.

Andrew Coons:

And like stocky and the S it's got stripes, but only on the butt?

Andrew Coons:

That, what?

Rebecca Gray:

The ass of a zebra.

Rebecca Gray:

Cause that just looks like a zebra.

Steve - Sivis:

I will say it does have the zebra stripes.

Rebecca Gray:

And then cheetah legs, back legs, without the spots.

Rebecca Gray:

And then, what you would draw if you were eight years old and trying to draw a tail,

Steve - Sivis:

Yeah, that's, just like a little stick right out the back.

Rebecca Gray:

Yeah, it doesn't move.

Steve - Sivis:

Start with the back half of a, like, uh, the tiger.

Steve - Sivis:

You're going to work really hard on that.

Steve - Sivis:

You're going to put in the lines and all that, and you're just going to

Steve - Sivis:

get really bored about midway through and stop doing the lines altogether.

Steve - Sivis:

And then just, just make that face a little longer than normal.

Rebecca Gray:

Yeah.

Andrew Coons:

And the head itself seems to be like a little bit,

Andrew Coons:

almost too big for the body.

Andrew Coons:

Like the proportions are a little bit off.

Andrew Coons:

I don't know if it's that the legs are too short or the body's not quite as

Andrew Coons:

long as I would've expected it to be, but yeah, like a dog bear, or like, almost a

Andrew Coons:

lion face, but with a longer snout, short fur, stripes only on the back are weird.

Andrew Coons:

That's an odd thing.

Andrew Coons:

Maybe hyena, like is the closest thing.

Andrew Coons:

Like it doesn't have the proportions of a hyena, but just kind of in its

Andrew Coons:

general weirdness, that's probably the closest thing I would equate it to.

Andrew Coons:

Yeah.

Andrew Coons:

The thylacine, I don't know what to make of that.

Steve - Sivis:

Pretend you and your spouse are working separately on it.

Andrew Coons:

That's an odd one.

Andrew Coons:

Nature's amazing.

Lucas:

That was Andrew Coons, dungeon master for first watch D&D,

Lucas:

along with Steve and Becca from the House Sivis Echoer Station podcast.

Lucas:

I asked them to take a look at footage of Benjamin.

Lucas:

The last living thylacine in the world.

Lucas:

Benjamin is one of the world's most famous endlings like Martha the

Lucas:

passenger pigeon, Incas the Carolina parakeet, and Celia the Pyrenean ibex.

Lucas:

The footage from the 1935 travel documentary "Tasmania the

Lucas:

Wonderland" shows Benjamin pacing his concrete, wire-topped enclosure

Lucas:

at the Beaumaris Zoo in Hobart.

Lucas:

The footage was discovered and restored by the National Film and

Lucas:

Sound Archive of Australia and released to the public in May 2020.

Lucas:

The difficulty in describing this creature brought difficulty in naming it.

Lucas:

It's called the Tasmanian tiger for its stripes, the Tasmanian wolf for

Lucas:

its snout and ears, occasionally the Tasmanian hyena, even though

Lucas:

as you've heard it doesn't truly resemble any of those things.

Lucas:

There's no other creature on earth quite like the thylacine.

Lucas:

It's uncanny in the way that fairytales are uncanny - the

Lucas:

world through a looking glass.

Lucas:

So let's take our thylacine and make a monster.

Lucas:

If you want to follow along with this build, you can go

Lucas:

to scintilla.studio/extinction right now to download a digital

Lucas:

preview of Book of Extinction.

Lucas:

There is a statlock for the real historical thylacine as well

Lucas:

as one for the magical version, we'll be creating along the way.

Lucas:

Go ahead.

Lucas:

There's a short musical cue before we go on anyway, you've got time.

Lucas:

And here it is:

Part the second:

Fairy Land.

Part the second:

Benjamin's ancestors developed in the dense old growth forests of Tasmania,

Part the second:

an isolated island ecosystem slightly askew from the rest of the world.

Part the second:

In D&D's pan-cultural usage, it could easily be described

Part the second:

as fifth edition's feywild.

Part the second:

It's at this point that I would like to describe in detail those primeval

Part the second:

forests or how the island's ecology differed from inland to coast or the land

Part the second:

management of the Aboriginal people there.

Part the second:

I've delayed this podcast several times looking for that information.

Part the second:

The trouble is it doesn't seem to exist.

Part the second:

Even John West's definitive work The History of Tasmania devotes only 36 of its

Part the second:

1,100 pages to the time before the first penal colony was established in 1803.

Part the second:

And those pages mostly cover the details of the first expeditions to the island.

Part the second:

There's something to be said here about the colonialist nature of the archetypical

Part the second:

D&D adventure and how those with a written culture always supersede those

Part the second:

without one, but it's out of place here.

Part the second:

Check out the GM Edition episode on Fun City for that particular digression.

Part the second:

It carries my point that the native fauna of Tasmania are so often

Part the second:

endemic to it, and so dissimilar from others in their ecological niche.

Part the second:

In other words, weird stuff lived there that didn't live anywhere else.

Part the second:

Where elsewhere you would find a beaver, Tasmania had the platypus, an

Part the second:

egg-laying, duck-billed, beaver-tailed, otter-footed, venomous mammal so bizarre

Part the second:

the first specimens were condemned as fakes sewn together from random bits.

Part the second:

Where Africa has the meerkat and the molerat, Tasmania has the bandicoot,

Part the second:

a kitten-sized omnivorous digger with a plump, arched back and a long

Part the second:

snout full of sharp little teeth.

Part the second:

Where Europe had badgers and ferrets, Tasmania had Tasmanian devils, squat

Part the second:

screaming 18-pound marsupial capable of generating the strongest bite per unit of

Part the second:

body mass of any predatory land mammal.

Part the second:

And where the Americas had wolves and coyotes, Tasmania had thylacines.

Part the second:

The first people with a written culture, and therefore a historical record,

Part the second:

to seriously attempt to living among this outlandish Tasmanian menagerie

Part the second:

were the 308 convicts who left London in 1803 on board the Calcutta.

Part the second:

They were a cross section of Europe.

Part the second:

To quote James Boyce's book Van Diemen's Land: "There were six or seven Jews from

Part the second:

the east end of London, a Pole, a German, a Portuguese, two Dutch, an Afro-American

Part the second:

– the violin player William Thomas – and the French confectioner, Nicholas Piroelle.

Part the second:

There were also 17 Irish, at least eight Scots, and the same

Part the second:

number of Welsh," endquote.

Part the second:

This is not to mention the seven English mutineers, the wealthy

Part the second:

landowner James Grove, and Robert Cooper, the 57 year old Romani.

Part the second:

I have to assume Gilligan and the skipper were there with the professor and Marianne

Part the second:

in tow, but you know, that's just me.

Part the second:

To them, Tasmania must have seemed like Anwyn, Tir Na Nog, Avalon, Mag Mell,

more likely, all of the above:

the otherworld, the supernatural realm,

more likely, all of the above:

the mirror planes common to each of the settlers' myths and storytelling.

more likely, all of the above:

In D&D, that's the feywild.

more likely, all of the above:

So if we're going to bring the thylacine to D&D, it has to be a fey creature.

Part the third:

fear love, and denial.

Part the third:

We make monsters out of what we fear and forbid.

Part the third:

So our monsters change as often as our morals do.

Part the third:

And sometimes those monsters become casualties.

Part the third:

Professor Asa Mittman once told me the drinking game of monster

Part the third:

studies - the academic study of monsters in art and literature - is

Part the third:

Jeffrey Jerome Cohen's 1996 essay "Monster Culture: seven theses."

Part the third:

The sixth thesis is that fear of the monster is really a kind of desire.

Part the third:

Cohen argues that monsters cross or police boundaries to the forbidden,

Part the third:

making them escapist fantasies.

Part the third:

Quote, “We distrust and loathe the monster at the same time we envy its freedom.”

Part the third:

D&D gives me the opportunity to take a more literal approach to

Part the third:

the fear and love of the monster.

Part the third:

Often you see monsters in this game, like dragons who can inspire

Part the third:

fear with mechanical consequences just by their very presence.

Part the third:

The opposite mechanic is charm effects, where creatures can enchant or enthrall.

Part the third:

You almost never see these two things together, usually because

Part the third:

they accomplish the same narrative objective: our emotional reaction

Part the third:

to the monster overwhelms our ability to act rightly toward it.

Part the third:

But for my money, the monster thylacine needs both.

Part the third:

And here's why.

Part the third:

I grew up in the 1990s, where conservation movements focused

Part the third:

on the charismatic megafauna.

Part the third:

As I absorbed it, this was the formula: we need to save the arctic,

Part the third:

so we get people to care about the polar bear who lives there.

Part the third:

We need to save the wetlands, so we get people to care about the

Part the third:

great blue heron who lives there.

Part the third:

Even Book of Extinction, I'll admit, follows the same formula,

Part the third:

but our monsters as border guards and exemplars fulfill the same role.

Part the third:

Here's Steve Sullivan again:

Steve Sullivan:

We've mentioned charismatic species a little bit.

Steve Sullivan:

Uh, there's a phrase I, I forget who coined it, but, um, "God had an

Steve Sullivan:

inordinate fondness for beetles."

Steve Sullivan:

And that's a recognition of the fact that there are more beetles than

Steve Sullivan:

basically anything else, at least as far as we know, and have looked.

Steve Sullivan:

And the fact of the matter is, is that we are ice age relic giants.

Steve Sullivan:

Most organisms are not as big as us.

Steve Sullivan:

We are vertebrates.

Steve Sullivan:

We have imagination, creativity.

Steve Sullivan:

That's kind of our power relative to all other species.

Steve Sullivan:

And we are also very self-centered.

Steve Sullivan:

Fair enough.

Steve Sullivan:

Uh, and so we look at things that look like us.

Steve Sullivan:

We think about the primates first.

Steve Sullivan:

Of course, that doesn't mean we're not going to cause their extinction.

Steve Sullivan:

We're working really hard towards causing their extinction - orangutans and all

Steve Sullivan:

the Palm oil you've already consumed today are a great example of that.

Steve Sullivan:

But then we look at fuzzy things.

Steve Sullivan:

We look at things with stereoscopic eyes like us.

Steve Sullivan:

We look at things with eyes on the side of the head, if they're useful for us to eat.

Steve Sullivan:

And then we look at colorful things because we're color vision

Steve Sullivan:

primates - most animals of course see in some kind of monochrome.

Steve Sullivan:

So if it's a scarlet macaw, we think it's neat.

Steve Sullivan:

If we think it's a Spix's macaw, the blue one, we only think that's neat when we

Steve Sullivan:

suddenly realized that it was the star of a Disney or Pixar movie or something.

Steve Sullivan:

And now golly, it's extinct in the wild, I guess I feel badly about that, but I can't

Steve Sullivan:

differentiate that from a hyacinth macaw because I frankly don't care that much.

Steve Sullivan:

And then we go on down the road to less and less and less charismatic things

Steve Sullivan:

that maybe sometimes are less impacted by us, but certainly not always, um,

Steve Sullivan:

think about all of the amazing life that lives under the ground and has

Steve Sullivan:

evolved there and is amelanistic, that means, you know, it has no melanin.

Steve Sullivan:

Um, so these, these blind cave, salamanders, blind cave fish, blind

Steve Sullivan:

amphipods, we emphasize they're blind because vision is so important to us.

Steve Sullivan:

They don't care that they're blind.

Steve Sullivan:

They're more functional down there than we are.

Steve Sullivan:

But then we suck the groundwater out, we frack the groundwater to deathly

Steve Sullivan:

pollution, and don't care one wit about them, at least not enough to go down

Steve Sullivan:

and say, do they exist or to simply imagine, yeah, they probably exist.

Steve Sullivan:

Worms in the Willamette Valley, Oregon, Washington, California area

Steve Sullivan:

worms that are probably six to 10 feet long and as big around as your arm.

Steve Sullivan:

And that might live for decades, maybe longer, but are probably extinct because

Steve Sullivan:

we build freeways that cause vibrations to go down to where they live, that

Steve Sullivan:

stress them out so much that they can't reproduce and eventually they die.

Steve Sullivan:

Certainly worms like that, that live in Gippsland,

Steve Sullivan:

Australia, who knows about them?

Steve Sullivan:

Who cares about them?

Steve Sullivan:

And to some extent, do you, as an individual need to know about them?

Steve Sullivan:

You know, people will ask me about sports teams.

Steve Sullivan:

Okay.

Steve Sullivan:

Cool.

Steve Sullivan:

Do I need to know and care about every bit of diversity

Steve Sullivan:

of sports or cars or whatever?

Steve Sullivan:

No.

Steve Sullivan:

And I don't expect you to know or care about all the different species, but the

Steve Sullivan:

question becomes why prevent extinction?

Steve Sullivan:

And when I ask that to the average person on the street, why should

Steve Sullivan:

I prevent the extinction of the thylacine, the passenger pigeon?

Steve Sullivan:

And they look at it and like, well, what good is it?

Steve Sullivan:

So my question in return is, well, what good is a horse?

Steve Sullivan:

Oh, well, it gives you transportation.

Steve Sullivan:

Oh, really?

Steve Sullivan:

Do you ride a horse?

Steve Sullivan:

Now, if you're poor, you know how to ride a water buffalo.

Steve Sullivan:

And frankly, water buffalo have utility.

Steve Sullivan:

A lot of people rely on those for raising their food.

Steve Sullivan:

Okay.

Steve Sullivan:

So maybe at this point, why prevent extinction?

Steve Sullivan:

What use is it?

Steve Sullivan:

What utility is it?

Steve Sullivan:

Maybe horses.

Steve Sullivan:

They can go extinct, but water buffalo shouldn't.

Steve Sullivan:

But as soon as everybody gets a solar powered tractor from Tesla, meh, water

Steve Sullivan:

buffaloes they're anachronistic too.

Steve Sullivan:

Well, is that true?

Steve Sullivan:

Do you like mozzarella from water buffalo or from cows?

Steve Sullivan:

If you're an afficionado, you say water buffaloes.

Steve Sullivan:

Okay.

Steve Sullivan:

So they're good.

Steve Sullivan:

We can keep those.

Steve Sullivan:

Horses?

Steve Sullivan:

Dang it, I still haven't found a good use for those yet.

Steve Sullivan:

Okay.

Steve Sullivan:

So I guess they're extinct.

Steve Sullivan:

Silly argument, right?

Steve Sullivan:

What good is it?

Steve Sullivan:

That's a totally silly argument.

Steve Sullivan:

Okay.

Steve Sullivan:

Well, is it?

Steve Sullivan:

Well, Monarch butterflies, are they pretty sure?

Steve Sullivan:

And that's why everybody tracks monarch butterflies and plants milkweed and stuff.

Steve Sullivan:

But, you know, tell me about your, your beauty underwing moth.

Steve Sullivan:

How much do you all care about that one?

Steve Sullivan:

It's brown on top, but it's pretty on underneath.

Steve Sullivan:

It's got red and black.

Steve Sullivan:

Nobody knows what that is.

Steve Sullivan:

And besides which, you think that bell bottoms and tank tops are cool and I

Steve Sullivan:

think that ballgowns and corsets are cool.

Steve Sullivan:

Our sense of aesthetics are very different.

Steve Sullivan:

Who's to say what aesthetics are?

Steve Sullivan:

And when it comes to organisms, we look at the gila monster

Steve Sullivan:

or the Mexican beaded lizard.

Steve Sullivan:

Ugly, according to some people, creepy.

Steve Sullivan:

Certainly places that want to develop vast tracts of land in the American southwest

Steve Sullivan:

think it's awful because one gila monster sits under that same rock for six to nine

Steve Sullivan:

months out of the year and if I build a parking lot on that, I'm going to kill it.

Steve Sullivan:

And if it's listed as an endangered species, I can't build my parking lot.

Steve Sullivan:

So I can't make my money, which gosh means I'm not going to

Steve Sullivan:

improve your local economy.

Steve Sullivan:

You should let me kill that gila monster.

Steve Sullivan:

Besides which it's ugly and dangerous.

Steve Sullivan:

It's venomous.

Steve Sullivan:

It's going to kill you!

Steve Sullivan:

Well, but then it turns out we can make certain forms of treatment for type

Steve Sullivan:

II diabetes using gila monster venom.

Steve Sullivan:

Well, now it's not so useless anymore, is it?

Steve Sullivan:

It jumped into that first category beyond horses and up with water buffalo.

Steve Sullivan:

But now I figured out how to synthesize that venom component using

Steve Sullivan:

transgenic bacteria in vats that were originally designed for beer brewing.

Steve Sullivan:

Okay, great.

Steve Sullivan:

Now we can kill off the gila monsters.

Steve Sullivan:

Phew, wanted to get rid of them anyway, I need another shopping mall.

Steve Sullivan:

So what it fundamentally boils down to is ethics.

Steve Sullivan:

Who are you?

Steve Sullivan:

Who am I to look at something and say, you're too useless, you're

Steve Sullivan:

too ugly, you deserve to die.

Steve Sullivan:

I can remain ignorant of you and kill you off and not feel badly.

Lucas:

It's the same fear and love we have for monsters.

Lucas:

And it turns on a dime.

Lucas:

I was reading The Once and Future World by J.B.

Lucas:

MacKinnon.

Lucas:

He argues that fear and love for animals are two sides of the same

Lucas:

coin, and that coin is denial.

Lucas:

At first, the shy, elusive, nocturnal thylacine was a lucky

Lucas:

encounter, but to quote MacKinnon:

Lucas:

"As European-style fields and farms spread over the Tasmanian landscape,

Lucas:

however, reports began to spread of thylacines killing sheep and chicken.

Lucas:

The losses appear never to have been very great, but the thylacine

Lucas:

was quickly made into a monster.

Lucas:

Where once a settler might write of 'feeling very lucky to have been so

Lucas:

close to a tiger' or remark that, in Tasmania, 'there is nothing that will

Lucas:

hurt a man but a snake,' suddenly, the thylacine was so feared and hated

Lucas:

that men who killed one often burned its skin and smashed its bones.

Lucas:

The idea of dying in the fangs of a thylacine took on a nightmare quality.

Lucas:

The animals were said to kill like vampires draining their victims of blood.

Lucas:

Having gained supernatural powers through human storytelling, the thylacine was

Lucas:

denied its flesh and blood vulnerability.

Lucas:

By the late 1800s,when scientists were having difficulty finding any thylacines

Lucas:

at all, sheep ranchers still claimed the hills were infested with them."

Lucas:

Next, in order to explain the disappearance of native Tasmanian animals

Lucas:

as European settlement altered the landscape, science denied they were fit

Lucas:

- calling them "idiotic" and the primitive result of an evolutionary backwater.

Lucas:

Then as Benjamin's death made the thylacine well and truly extinct after a

Lucas:

century of habitat loss and extermination campaigns, some denied having known the

Lucas:

species was that close to the brink.

Lucas:

This, despite at least 25 warnings about the thylacines increasing scarcity.

Lucas:

From the moment of Benjamin's death, MacKinnon writes, the species has

Lucas:

been subject to the only act of denial still available: it has been

Lucas:

refused the finality of extinction.

Lucas:

Personally, I've read at least three books during this project claiming the thylacine

Lucas:

is still alive despite 85 years without hard evidence of a living specimen.

Lucas:

In monster terms, the thylacine might as well be Bigfoot.

Part the Fourth:

the extinction of magic.

Part the Fourth:

I don't tell this story to make you feel guilty.

Part the Fourth:

I really don't.

Part the Fourth:

I tell you this story because I want you to understand the relationship.

Part the Fourth:

Natural history has to the bulk of fantasy literature that D&D, players love so much.

Part the Fourth:

The trail of mythology through Linnaeus's taxonomy is something else that I would

Part the Fourth:

love to explore, uh, and I just want to get your thoughts on one example,

Part the Fourth:

the Tasmanian tiger it's, uh, it's designation is thylacinus cynocephalus,

Part the Fourth:

and I think I know where that comes from, but you're nodding knowingly.

Part the Fourth:

Uh, um,

Kieran Suckling:

Yeah.

Kieran Suckling:

I don't know exactly where it came from, but you know, it it's, it's a really good

Kieran Suckling:

example of how we know animals in one context, and then certainly especially,

Kieran Suckling:

uh, Europeans, because they travelled the world so dramatically in a way that,

Kieran Suckling:

you know, few other people did with that, uh, kind of magnitude, arrive

Kieran Suckling:

in new places, see these new animals and then try to interpret them through

Kieran Suckling:

these other animals, you know, and cause the Tasmanian tiger is not a tiger.

Kieran Suckling:

Um, and like so many other creatures, uh, you know, here in the U.S., um,

Kieran Suckling:

uh, you know, for example, our, our, our bison are not actually bison.

Kieran Suckling:

Um, that's another word from Asia and you know, it just goes on and

Kieran Suckling:

on, but you know, that's exactly how language and culture works.

Kieran Suckling:

It's just ever changing, ever-evolving thing that, that just

Kieran Suckling:

works by mixing things together.

Kieran Suckling:

That's exactly what it is.

Kieran Suckling:

It's a mixing together, which is very interesting in terms of, um, that happens

Kieran Suckling:

very slowly and sort of organically with many, many different people

Kieran Suckling:

accidentally contributing over time so that we ended up with certain perception

Kieran Suckling:

of a species, a name, et cetera.

Kieran Suckling:

So it's intriguing to me thinking about that in terms of someone's

Kieran Suckling:

sitting down today and saying, okay, I will myself create a monster, right?

Kieran Suckling:

I'm going to compress what would normally be thousands of years of

Kieran Suckling:

work, thousands of people accidentally contributing, I'm now going to do that.

Kieran Suckling:

Um, and so what does that look like?

Kieran Suckling:

Uh, and how is.

Kieran Suckling:

What you think you're doing as my unique individual in fact,

Kieran Suckling:

probably not exactly so much.

Kieran Suckling:

Um, because you're carrying all these sensibilities.

Kieran Suckling:

With you and you can only, and it only works coherently in a limited way.

Kieran Suckling:

Like as a game maker, I'm sure, you know, can't just randomly

Kieran Suckling:

make up any rules you want.

Kieran Suckling:

That'd be a really crappy game.

Kieran Suckling:

Uh, you make up the rules, but the rules have to interplay in certain

Kieran Suckling:

coherent ways to make it a good game.

Kieran Suckling:

And it's the same thing I think, with creating monsters and also.

Kieran Suckling:

The bigger cultural long-term development of, of, of language and

Kieran Suckling:

how we think about these species.

Lucas:

Yep.

Lucas:

So this one, uh, I tracked back to Pliny the Elder, uh, his Natural History.

Lucas:

Uh, he, um, yeah.

Kieran Suckling:

So many of these come some Pliny, it's fascinating.

Lucas:

Yep!

Lucas:

It's one of those names that I didn't hear before 2021, cause I wasn't a

Lucas:

student of philosophy or history.

Lucas:

Uh, and now I hear it all the time.

Lucas:

Uh, and Pliny described the cynocephaloi, uh, the dog-headed tribe of Greek

Lucas:

legend, which, un, tend- people tend to think now he was working off

Lucas:

someone's description of a baboon or a mandrill from, from Northern Africa.

Lucas:

So, yeah, and now it's applied to neither of those places, but to an extinct

Lucas:

marsupial in Tasmania, which is wild!

Lucas:

I want to introduce you to the unique magic you have

Lucas:

right now to save them before.

Lucas:

Again, Steve Sullivan,

Steve Sullivan:

I guess, as a biologist, one of my fundamental fascinations

Steve Sullivan:

with magic, but then also one of my fundamental frustrations with

Steve Sullivan:

magic is that there is no magic.

Steve Sullivan:

It's contained already within the individual species.

Steve Sullivan:

And what, what is magic ultimately is the ability to take a trait from an

Steve Sullivan:

organism and imbue it on ourselves.

Steve Sullivan:

And I guess the one thing that I've always thought that's maybe really magic is

Steve Sullivan:

the ability for dragons to breathe fire.

Steve Sullivan:

Um, there's a famous story about Alfred Russell Wallace.

Steve Sullivan:

And I won't go into one of my heroes, Alfred Russell Wallace, suffice it

Steve Sullivan:

to say that if it weren't for him, Darwin would not have done his stuff.

Steve Sullivan:

And Alfred Russell Wallace discovered everything that Darwin discovered any

Steve Sullivan:

more succinct and slightly different way.

Steve Sullivan:

And Alfred Russell Wallace was out one day, collecting beetles.

Steve Sullivan:

He had a beetle in one hand, he had a beetle on the other hand, he flipped a

Steve Sullivan:

log and saw another beetle that he wanted.

Steve Sullivan:

So he took one beetle that was in his hand and tossed in his mouth

Steve Sullivan:

and then grabbed the other beetle.

Steve Sullivan:

It turns out that the beetle that he put in his mouth was a bombardier

Steve Sullivan:

beetle, which is now shooting explosive, hyper-heated acid all

Steve Sullivan:

over his mouth, that's kind of the equivalent of breathing a fireball.

Steve Sullivan:

And so it is then conceivable over the course of evolutionary timescales that

Steve Sullivan:

something could be fire-breathing too.

Steve Sullivan:

So ultimately magic is awesome, but magic is already around us constantly.

Steve Sullivan:

The ability to fly, eh, dime a dozen, right?

Steve Sullivan:

Um, the ability to swim under the earth?

Steve Sullivan:

You got it!

Steve Sullivan:

Moles are a big problem this year apparently thanks to cicadas.

Steve Sullivan:

All of these things already exist.

Steve Sullivan:

And so the, the thing about magic then is the imposition of

Steve Sullivan:

that characteristic on a frankly hominid species that we've created.

Steve Sullivan:

Most of the characters that we play they're hominids, even dragons

Steve Sullivan:

are, they're really, it's uh, what's his name, sherlock Holmes

Steve Sullivan:

crawling around in a green suit.

Steve Sullivan:

Right?

Steve Sullivan:

So in fact, the thing that differentiates us from all the other organisms is

Steve Sullivan:

basically the ability to have imagination, to think about the past, to interpret

Steve Sullivan:

the present and predict the future.

Steve Sullivan:

It's not necessary for me to know all the sports teams and all the cars on

Steve Sullivan:

the road to be like, you know what?

Steve Sullivan:

You're cool.

Steve Sullivan:

And you're smart because you came up with that diversity.

Steve Sullivan:

And it's similarly not necessary for you to know all the diversity

Steve Sullivan:

of organisms that live on the earth to say, you know what, there's

Steve Sullivan:

other life forms out there that have just as much right to life as I do.

Steve Sullivan:

Even if I don't know what they are.

Steve Sullivan:

And I have the power to either consume them and or their habitats

Steve Sullivan:

out of existence, or to live as a sustainable fellow traveler on this

Steve Sullivan:

awesome blue marble floating through space and enjoy life together.

Lucas:

So this is our quest adventurers.

Lucas:

Let me give you some spell slots.

Lucas:

Here are two ways to take action to save endangered species.

Lucas:

First, share this story or this podcast with the people who play games with you.

Lucas:

Just telling people these animals existed and what they represent begins to

Lucas:

reverse the sliding scale of decreasing biodiversity by helping people realize

Lucas:

and admit what we've already lost.

Lucas:

Second, and this is the big one, donate to conservation through Book of Extinction.

Lucas:

If you go to scintilla.studio/extinction or follow the link in the show

Lucas:

notes, you can download the preview of Book of Extinction.

Lucas:

You can pay what you want for it, and whatever you pay will be

Lucas:

donated to conservation efforts to preserve endangered species,

Lucas:

habitat, and biodiversity.

Lucas:

Right now I'm meeting with conservation organizations to select a project and

Lucas:

organize a grant and you can follow this podcast or join my email list

Lucas:

to get details as they're finalized.

Lucas:

We're not going to keep any of the money we've raised through that preview.

Lucas:

We just want the chance to tell you about Book of Extinction when

Lucas:

it comes to Kickstarter in 2022.

Lucas:

The full book will include animals like the Carolina parakeet, the

Lucas:

Yangtze river dolphin, giant moa, and the Formosan clouded leopard.

Lucas:

The first three of these animals are available right now: passenger

Lucas:

pigeon, great auk, and the thylacine

Lucas:

Special thanks to my guests this episode:

Lucas:

Andrew Coons of First Watch, a cinematic D and D actual play series on YouTube.

Lucas:

Steve and Becca of the House Sivis Echoer Station podcast, a fiction

Lucas:

podcast about the first public radio station in the Eberron campaign setting.

Lucas:

Steve Sullivan, director of the Hefner Museum of Natural

Lucas:

History at Miami University.

Lucas:

And Kieran Suckling, founder and executive director of the

Lucas:

Center for Biological Diversity.

Lucas:

You'll find links to all these people in their description.

Lucas:

And I highly recommend you check out their work.

Lucas:

Each one has contributed to the growth and understanding of this

Lucas:

podcast in their own unique way and is definitely worth your time.

Lucas:

I'll be back soon with one more episode before a short hiatus for the holiday.

So I guess I have to say the thing:

:

next time on Making a Monster.

Ben Gilsdorf:

So, if you've ever seen a pileated woodpecker, it's

Ben Gilsdorf:

the bigger woodpecker with the red crest, black and white body long bill.

Ben Gilsdorf:

That's sort of the most famous when new people think of a big

Ben Gilsdorf:

woodpecker, it looks like that.

Ben Gilsdorf:

The ivory billed looks remarkably similar to that.

Ben Gilsdorf:

Um, it has a bit more red up top darker body.

Ben Gilsdorf:

Um, they're a little smaller than the pileated woodpecker and they lived

Ben Gilsdorf:

in a different part of the country.

Ben Gilsdorf:

So they lived in the American southeast by and large and old growth Cypress forests.

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