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Changing Employee Behavior
Episode 4914th November 2022 • Close The Loop • CallSource
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Kevin Dieny:

Hello and welcome to the Close the Loop podcast.

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I'm your host, Kevin Dieny, and today we're gonna be talking

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about changing employee behaviors.

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That's not gonna be the easiest thing.

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Hah, I think, uh, gosh, you have to put yourself back, right?

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Those first, that first week, that first few days, maybe where you step into

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the role of management or leadership.

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You know, anytime where you're overseeing employees, maybe you're working on a

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project indirectly for the first time.

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Uh, many have found themselves going, Man, I wish I could change , change

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this person, or change this role, or change this employee for the better.

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And then we'd all be better off!

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Hah hah...

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Uh, maybe not.

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Maybe everything's just been smooth sailing for you, so you

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might be an expert in this.

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Uh, changing the behaviors of employees is, I would say difficult.

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I mean, changing the behaviors of anyone is difficult.

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Throughout this whole thing, I, in doing the research for this

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episode, I kept thinking about, man, this is so much like parenting.

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This is so much heh...

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There's so much involved in, in this.

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And a lot of this comes from knowledge of parenting mixed with what I'm

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learning about and managing and changing behaviors of others and, and employees.

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Uh, changing the behaviors of it yourself.

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Uh, it's all difficult.

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Heh, uh, it's very difficult to do.

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It's not something that I think inherently is built into every single

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person, how to do this perfectly.

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Uh, even what's even more interesting is how much people

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think this isn't even possible.

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. Uh, there's a lot of employees who say our managers and both employees and

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managers say, What are you thinking?

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You know, you have to hire the right person for the role and that's it.

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You're stuck.

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You're not gonna be changing their behaviors, you're not

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gonna change their attitudes.

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That doesn't happen!

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Um, one of the studies I saw said that, that from the thousands of managers that

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they interviewed, it was 50%, pretty close to 50% cut down the middle that believed

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you could change employee behavior, and the other side said you could not.

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So that's a pretty divisive, pretty divided idea.

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Pretty divided conclusion for managers.

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So this topic could be divisive.

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I am just warning you now.

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But, I'm gonna give you some input.

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I, I have some training, I have some experience doing this, I've read a

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little bit and I've seen what the research has to say, what has worked from

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studies, what managers have had to say.

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And so that's what I'm gonna be bringing to the table today.

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Hopefully will help you, guide you toward what I think could be some interesting

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ideas that could help you change the behavior of your employees so that you

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can improve the growth of your business.

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I think it goes without saying that if business leaders could grow their

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business better, they would want to.

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If that requires them to change the behavior of their employees,

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they may go, Hmm, is that worth it?

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Is that possible?

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So, yeah, let's dive in.

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Uh, here's a great, uh, headline for you.

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The best managers at changing the behavior of their employees

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are going to rely on feedback.

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We've had an episode, well, I think it was our very first episode, and a

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couple episodes after that where we've really dived in and focused on feedback.

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Feedback is any time that you're learning from the outputs of something.

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So the faster...

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Remember again, the faster you can you wanna learn, the more behaviors

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you wanna change, the better you want to change your behavior.

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It's gonna rely on high frequency, high quality feedback.

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So we're gonna talk about how to get there with employees.

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But the truth is, at the end of the day, right, some employees may not

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be willing to change, may not want to change, There may not be an incentive

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or a motivator, an intrinsic or extrinsic value to them in changing.

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The culture of your environment of where you work, of your company

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may not even be suitable for handling this change that you want.

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I mean, uh, it's like you're asking them to change when

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you're not willing to change.

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So a lot of this at the end of the day, I think too, comes down to the manager,

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the leader, being able to model and create an environment where the behaviors you

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want are part of the culture, right?

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Sustainable culture that you have.

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Again, let's dive right into the what the antagonistic opposite of this is, right?

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So what are people saying around changing employee behavior where

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they say it can't be done, no way.

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So what are the most common arguments against it?

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So we'll start there, the first one is, you could not successfully

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change employee behaviors.

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Right, you might be able to correct it in the short term.

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You might be able to bend it to your will through force or coercion,

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but you're not able to actually change their attitude or behavior.

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Well, that's an interesting one, right?

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I mean, 50% believe that.

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So, uh, maybe that's the case, but I don't believe that that is, and the

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reason I don't think that that's true is.

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That I, I believe that people want a better environment.

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People, you know, you come to work for a company, if you're not there to help

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the company grow or you don't want to be part of that, you don't want to,

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you know, you don't believe in the mission, what the company stands for,

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what it's trying to achieve, right?

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With its purpose or where it's headed, it's vision.

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You know, if none of that aligns with you as an employee, I think

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we're looking and talking about an employee, maybe disgruntled, maybe

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someone who's not really, there maybe not doesn't belong there, right.

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There's probably a better place for them.

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So we're specifically, I think what I'm thinking of as I'm picturing

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the average typical employee, right.

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Who may have things that are more important to them than work, right.

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Lots, I think that's the general, the case.

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You know, their family, their friendship, social, um, the social

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standing they have with their coworkers, people around them, their reputation.

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They may need the job for financial purposes too, obviously.

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But at the end of the day, I think, you know, they are there for more

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than just to, to complete a task.

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This is my belief, and I think if that's true, then an employees can

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be motivated, their attitudes can change, their behaviors can change.

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And it, I think it helps best when again, the manager or the leader is modeling

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that behavior that they want to change.

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So second argument against changing employee behavior, okay, is employees

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will only change for substantial financial or monetary incentives.

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Well, I think that it is pretty well established that financial

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incentives are very strong.

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. You do this, you get money for it.

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I mean, the nature of work, you work, you get paid, right?

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what else is there?

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But there's a lot, there's actually an interesting paradigm that a

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lot of, um, business management consulting companies have been

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trying to uncover psychologically, what are people motivated by?

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What are people willing to change for, Right.

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And that, I think at the top of that are things like, it

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aligns with who their values.

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Who they see themselves as, what things they stand for.

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They're willing to change when it aligns with their existing values, right?

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They have a place or position where they currently are, but something is better.

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Just over the fence.

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, the grass is greener over there.

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They'd be willing to go there when it aligns with their values.

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There's other things too, right?

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Makes it easier to do your job.

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Uh, there might be a case where it's a better environment for you, for your work.

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It's a shorter commute.

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Maybe there's benefits, there's, there's a lot of, I think things you could

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say are incentive incentivizing for someone to go after, besides financial.

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That some people may value more than others.

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I don't think there's just a, I think in general financial is the number one, but

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there are other things that people value.

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Right.

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What do you value?

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What's important to you?

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You know, if someone said, Well, what would it take for

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you to work 10 more minutes, 15 more minutes every day at work?

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I mean, you may be like, Well, I accidentally do that all the time.

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, or I go way beyond that every day.

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But if someone brought it up to you at first and said, Okay.

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You know, what would it cost or what would help you work that extra?

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10, 15 minutes every day.

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Right?

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Is it just financial?

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Um, maybe you work that extra because the traffic is lighter or you know, there

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might be benefits of leaving a little earlier to catch a family or sports game.

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A son or daughters softball, soccer team game or practice or something like that.

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There are some interesting.

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Values that people have, and the better that a manager or a leader, I

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believe, understands those things for each employee, the better they can be.

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And again, that's something you gain through feedback, through having a

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conversation, maybe one on ones, uh, at some routine basis with employees.

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So last one.

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The last counter to, it's not possible to change employee behavior.

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Right.

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And that is, uh, changes to employee behaviors always revert back to the

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way they were after a short time . This one really makes me laugh because as

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I encounter, have encountered this and do encounter this all the time, right?

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Sure.

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You.

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You say, Hey, will you do something?

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I'll pay you an incentive, financial incentive.

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If you do this thing, then you get paid, and people may do it, but

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how do you get 'em to keep doing it and stay doing it for a long time?

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You know?

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Will it continue to hold the same value to them, or will it have to,

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the value have to be increased.

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Will you know, now that you've had them achieve, let's say, you know, now

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they're 70%, how do you get 'em to 80%?

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Right?

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How do you keep, Let's.

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A change, moving in the right direction, sustainable change, . I do believe it's

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hard, and I think the, the, the reason I think that this one is so common and so

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true, is that by default, right people, it's hard to turn a behavior into a habit.

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You have, you know, you're doing something maybe all the time at work.

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Maybe not at home.

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Maybe you're doing, you know, what you're doing, uh, for the behavioral change, but

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it's just not setting in something about it isn't settling down to the point where

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you would do it that way all the time.

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And to get behaviors and attitudes that become more permanent, to turn

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them into a more of a habit definitely requires, I think, a higher level

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approach to motivation than simply, you know, I think it takes a better

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understanding of the values of an employee to get them to push them to a

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sustainable habitual level of change.

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So that's why I think that one's absolutely problematic.

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. All right.

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So, um, I think we're gonna start out with the, there's a

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process here and I think you.

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It's best to deal with how we're going to get to changing employee behavior

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if we go through this, The process that it takes to get there, there is

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basically, I would say like four steps.

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This is what I have put together for this episode is I believe

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there's four steps right now.

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It, it's hard to remember on a podcast.

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, what was step number two again?

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When I'm on three.

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Okay, so I'll, I'll continue to reiterate them as we go so that

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you can follow along a little bit.

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Right.

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So the first one, very important.

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We're not even gonna be getting to the behaviors yet.

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We're not even gonna be getting . We're gonna be looking at this

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organizationally, which is what are the roles, the functions, the

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duties, and the schedule, right?

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Like how this all come fits together of your employees.

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So I'm talking about your direct reports, okay?

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If you have a lot direct reports, this could be a long, this is a big list.

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This is a big org.

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This is a big duties, functions, roles chart.

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Uh, take your take.

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Just one.

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Okay.

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So why listening to this?

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Think of just one direct report employee and think of, okay, what's their role?

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What's their function?

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What's their duties?

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Okay, so let me define those.

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Their role is what is kind of like their asso is sort of

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like their authority, right?

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So what's their role That's unique to.

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Different than the other employees, like what's special, unique, and gives them

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the authority over what they're doing.

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If you have, there's a, there's a couple versions of this.

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One of them is like too many cooks in the kitchen.

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Okay?

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If you have too many redundant roles, doing a simple, doing the single role,

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all trying to do it all together in the same kind of localized place, you may

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have sort of a power struggle occurring.

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So, Obviously you can have people with the same role, but

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usually they're divided, right?

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Geographically, location, or there's multiple tasks that in, in different

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areas or something that requires, uh, divided attention so that you can assign

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this role to each one and there may be a purpose to having it the way you do.

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So think of a role, okay?

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So think of an employee, maybe one you have a behavior

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you'd like to change, okay?

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And then think of their role.

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Okay?

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What is unique about their.

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You know, what's different about that role than any other role you have?

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Okay.

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And where does it sit in relation to okay, you.

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And do they have direct reports to them?

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Do they have, uh, horizontal or coworkers, other teams, other people they were,

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they work with that are sideways, right?

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There's a whole flow through in your company and that's

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organizationally how it.

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Okay.

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The duties is what things they're required to do to be

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successful in that role, Right?

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So there is success in that role.

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Well, what's success look like, right?

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If you're thinking of, let's say, um, a secretary, okay.

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Let's say, just use an example here.

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You're thinking of a secretary, someone who's working in the

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office, sort of an adminis.

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They have a behavior you'd like to adjust.

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, I'm saying that nicely, adjust.

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Okay.

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Change and this administrator, this secretary assistant, whatever it

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is, um, the assistant, the role of the secretary, that's the role.

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Right?

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And they're unique.

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Maybe say they're unique because they facilitate and handle calls,

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they schedule and they're, they are responsible for connecting people with.

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Other person that maybe they're in charge of, like the connections.

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So that's their role, their duties.

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What is, what are they responsible for, for success?

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Say, Well man, they do a lot of stuff.

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You know, for me, I wouldn't, I don't know if I'd say, you know, like printing

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or compiling or they decorate the office.

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No, no, no.

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Think about what is, so what are the, what's the critical primary function of

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that responsibility, of that role that helps the company be more successful?

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It might be, Whoa, answering the phones is a big deal for them.

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, Right.

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And supporting and helping my needs so that I'm not so

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stretched thin as a secondary.

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Okay, so now you got these, uh, those are duties.

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Okay.

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So you have the person, the role, maybe the duties listed there,

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maybe the roles and how they sit.

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The last, um, and again, I said function, function and

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role are fairly similar there.

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Okay.

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The last thing is the schedule is.

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The capacity of when they're supposed to be fulfilling their role and when

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and how they accomplish their duties.

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So you might say, well, they're nine to five, six to.

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Uh, five or something, six to four, whatever their timeframe is.

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That's, that's a part of it.

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But also how does that, What happens during the day?

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Right.

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Okay.

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When they get in these things and then they have these things and maybe

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they've carved out their own schedule of what they're gonna do, that's fine.

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But generally speaking, you as a manager, you need to think

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about it as a top level, right?

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Higher level.

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Okay.

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They need to answer phones and support.

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Okay, so those two things need to occur during the day.

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So you might say, Okay, well the day the slot while they're available

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is primarily to answer phones.

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And then in between, there might be tasks, secondary things that, you know, that

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slot in for helping and supporting me.

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Maybe the afternoons are quieter, maybe the mornings are quieter.

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I don't know, , maybe the whole thing is just a crazy chaotic mess.

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But within.

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Within the schedule.

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Right.

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When do the problematic behavior and you just pick one.

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. , right.

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You know, I go, Wow.

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Just one.

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Yes.

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Just pick one.

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Um, hopefully there's just one.

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No pick one Problematic behavior of this example, right, Of

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the one you're thinking of.

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Pick one problematic behavior you wish was.

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I go, Well, gosh, I wish they would do this.

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You know, and they do this all the time.

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Those are the kind of behaviors you wanna be thinking about.

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Frequent, um, problematic issues, behaviors, you know, a one off

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thing, like someone yelled.

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That's not exactly what we're focusing on.

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Focusing on frequently occurring, problematic behavior.

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Think of one, think of something that occurs that you would just like to change.

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All right.

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And from that, right?

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Think about, okay, well, during the schedule of a day, so an average day,

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when does that problematic behavior occur?

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Why?

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You know, what's the situation, What's the circumstance?

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And that should give you a little bit better idea of what you're dealing with.

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Here it's like, okay, well, hmm.

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Just from.

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Kevin has mentioned so far, if you think about it and you're like,

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Well, the problematic behavior comes from something that's not related

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directly to their their duty.

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Then why are they doing it?

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Maybe if they just weren't doing that thing, then I wouldn't have that problem.

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I was like, Well, you know, Yeah.

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It's not related to the primary, primary duty of answering phones.

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It's related more to the second one, which is supporting me.

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Right.

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So then in that case, how much is it supporting me?

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Is it worthwhile?

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You know, like if it's so important, it has to happen and, but it's still

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the cause or trigger of this behavior, then okay, now we're getting some.

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If it's related to someone else, maybe the person answers the phone

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rudely, . Maybe there's a, maybe there's an interaction with some of the other

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employees that is problematic, right?

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Maybe there, there are some confrontational issues there.

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Maybe the quality of work is not, not up to the way you would like it.

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Maybe the, the way the work is done is different.

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It's still good, but different than the way you'd.

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I know anything could be anything, could be a behavioral thing

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you'd like to change, right?

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It's frequent enough.

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It's occurring enough and it's important enough to you.

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Okay, now we're rolling.

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And now you've seen the context of what we're getting to, right?

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What are the triggers?

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What's causing it?

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How important is it?

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Is it really related to the person's role?

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Right?

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All At the end of the day, that employee is there to, in that role, that specific

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role, to accomplish their specific duties in the scheduler timeframe that you have.

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Right.

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That's what they're essentially there for.

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That's their primary duty.

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Okay?

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Things relating to their primary responsibility that

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are problematic are very, very important for you to try to change.

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Okay?

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That's what we want to really, really focus on.

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So now ask yourself, Okay, so that's part one or two.

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Now of this first.

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Ask yourself, are the roles, the duties, the schedule, are

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those the way I understand them?

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Clear to the employees?

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. Okay.

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And I'm laughing.

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I'm sicking again because, uh, this is very rarely the case.

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Maybe not where you are.

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That's awesome.

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Great.

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Okay.

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But are the standards, the responsibilities, the duties, the

Kevin Dieny:

function, You know, how they sit, their authority, what they're required to do?

Kevin Dieny:

Maybe it was explained day one.

Kevin Dieny:

Maybe it's five years down the road now, 15 years down the road, whatever

Kevin Dieny:

they're doing, is it very clear what you'd like them to accomplish,

Kevin Dieny:

How that relates to accomplishing the goals of the company, Right?

Kevin Dieny:

How you'd like them to achieve that and how, like what success looks like for

Kevin Dieny:

that role, for their duty along the way.

Kevin Dieny:

What maybe microsteps are required to achieve that task, that objective?

Kevin Dieny:

Are they very clear on it?

Kevin Dieny:

The reason that that's problematic is if you're about to try to change a

Kevin Dieny:

behavior, but , that employee didn't really realize there was anything wrong.

Kevin Dieny:

didn't realize it was causing.

Kevin Dieny:

A problem against their primary objective, didn't realize it was

Kevin Dieny:

impacting you or the company in some way.

Kevin Dieny:

You want to take away the things that they're ignorantly doing.

Kevin Dieny:

Let's, let's shelve, let's, let's help them understand.

Kevin Dieny:

First off here, the, here's the role, here's the function.

Kevin Dieny:

Let's be very clear and concise.

Kevin Dieny:

Here's the objective and the goals I have for you.

Kevin Dieny:

Here's the culture of the company.

Kevin Dieny:

This is where these come from.

Kevin Dieny:

This is maybe just what I want you to do.

Kevin Dieny:

This is what I expect, right?

Kevin Dieny:

Just review.

Kevin Dieny:

Just be very clear on when and how all these things are gonna be accomplished.

Kevin Dieny:

And from that, that may clear up some behavior of rural issues,

Kevin Dieny:

but maybe not all of them, right?

Kevin Dieny:

That, that just might be the beginning.

Kevin Dieny:

That's, that's why we're kind of getting it off.

Kevin Dieny:

So cuz this is part, uh, part two now, okay, you defined everything.

Kevin Dieny:

Now you're gonna make sure it's clear and concise for your employees, okay?

Kevin Dieny:

The third step now is to go, Okay, now once you've made this concise and clear

Kevin Dieny:

to your employees, did you get any.

Kevin Dieny:

, Right?

Kevin Dieny:

Were there, is there anything going on with the employee that might

Kevin Dieny:

be, This could be HR related stuff, personal issues, family issues.

Kevin Dieny:

Who knows?

Kevin Dieny:

There could be a lot of stuff going on with an employee.

Kevin Dieny:

Okay.

Kevin Dieny:

And those things can be impacting this person.

Kevin Dieny:

Do you have a good understanding of that?

Kevin Dieny:

Empathy for that, compassion for that?

Kevin Dieny:

Does it still work for you and the company?

Kevin Dieny:

Is this, are they in a good place now?

Kevin Dieny:

Maybe a bad place now?

Kevin Dieny:

Is it short term, long term consequences to this?

Kevin Dieny:

You.

Kevin Dieny:

Now you're at a place where you've, you can really gather, ask

Kevin Dieny:

questions, figure out, Okay, is this a behavior that they're aware of?

Kevin Dieny:

Right?

Kevin Dieny:

Can't fix something unless you know there's a problem.

Kevin Dieny:

is the way aware that there's a way to, to switch this, to change this

Kevin Dieny:

alternatives that might be better, different behaviors that could.

Kevin Dieny:

You know, promote what you're still trying to do, still

Kevin Dieny:

achieve the tasks they're after.

Kevin Dieny:

But the behavior's different.

Kevin Dieny:

The attitude is different.

Kevin Dieny:

You know, attitude and behavior can really make a big difference.

Kevin Dieny:

So when you've gathered that feedback, then you, then it's when you go,

Kevin Dieny:

this is the overwhelming part, right?

Kevin Dieny:

Cause now it's like, okay, I see this employee, I see what they're responsible

Kevin Dieny:

for, what they need to accomplish.

Kevin Dieny:

They are clear on.

Kevin Dieny:

Right.

Kevin Dieny:

The behavior that I would like to change, I now have a better understanding of why

Kevin Dieny:

they're doing it, what's causing them to do it, why they're doing it that way.

Kevin Dieny:

Right.

Kevin Dieny:

I can't tell.

Kevin Dieny:

It brings to mind like a parenting example here.

Kevin Dieny:

How many times I remember folding clothes and being told that's

Kevin Dieny:

not the way you fold the clothes . That's not the way you fold the.

Kevin Dieny:

How many different ways are there full of short?

Kevin Dieny:

Apparently there's a lot and if you've worked, you know, retail clothing, I'm

Kevin Dieny:

sure you know the best way, but this is just whatever I could, I just basically

Kevin Dieny:

rolled it up and threw it in there,

Kevin Dieny:

Um, but I was told no, that will promote wrinkling if I do

Kevin Dieny:

it the way I was doing, right.

Kevin Dieny:

But I just didn't care about the wrinkles.

Kevin Dieny:

So that's why I did what I did, you know, growing up.

Kevin Dieny:

I don't care.

Kevin Dieny:

So here's, that's an example, right?

Kevin Dieny:

Why is the employee doing that?

Kevin Dieny:

Well, Kevin was doing it cuz he just didn't care about wrinkles.

Kevin Dieny:

Okay, well how can I help my employee care about wrinkles?

Kevin Dieny:

Or see that?

Kevin Dieny:

Why the wrinkles cause problems, right?

Kevin Dieny:

The consequence of a behavior, okay, is very important to understand, for

Kevin Dieny:

instance, If the behavior they're causing only impacts you, they

Kevin Dieny:

need to understand its impact on.

Kevin Dieny:

Okay.

Kevin Dieny:

If it's having an impact on your business, meaning the rude to callers,

Kevin Dieny:

okay, the rude to coworkers, there's something that's causing other

Kevin Dieny:

employees, or you know it's causing a disruption, causing more time wasted.

Kevin Dieny:

It's confusing.

Kevin Dieny:

They need to have a good understanding of that so that they have all the facts too.

Kevin Dieny:

Feedback needs to be given to you, so you understand, Oh, I see why they're doing.

Kevin Dieny:

You know, he's folding it and he doesn't care about wrinkles, but how can I help

Kevin Dieny:

them understand, okay, here's the problem.

Kevin Dieny:

You know, you're gonna look, you're not gonna look as great as you could without,

Kevin Dieny:

you know, with a shirt that's just, looks like it was wedged in a suitcase.

Kevin Dieny:

You know, , like there's, there's some something there you might

Kevin Dieny:

be able to tease out under.

Kevin Dieny:

Help them understand around why there it is important.

Kevin Dieny:

Why certain things, behaviors have consequences.

Kevin Dieny:

What the consequences are.

Kevin Dieny:

Natural consequences.

Kevin Dieny:

Right?

Kevin Dieny:

The results of directly doing it or something more reasonable for you,

Kevin Dieny:

like, you know, this still gets it done.

Kevin Dieny:

They still achieve the goal and the they fulfill their duty, They

Kevin Dieny:

still achieve what they're after.

Kevin Dieny:

It helps the company, but it's taking a long time, you know, and if there

Kevin Dieny:

was a better way to do this, that save time, then we could get more.

Kevin Dieny:

, Right?

Kevin Dieny:

So they need to be able to understand that too.

Kevin Dieny:

And that exchange is the part that I think is overwhelming.

Kevin Dieny:

And I think where management go, Ooh, , you know, I can, I can talk

Kevin Dieny:

to my employees, I can address small problems with them, but helping

Kevin Dieny:

them through a behavioral change, helping them with, you know, change

Kevin Dieny:

management, who that's overwhelming.

Kevin Dieny:

Get understanding what's happening there, fine.

Kevin Dieny:

But then coming up with a, you know, ways where they can be guided

Kevin Dieny:

toward changing that behavior.

Kevin Dieny:

Ooh, wow.

Kevin Dieny:

Difficult.

Kevin Dieny:

Okay, but this is why you really only wanna focus on one . Okay?

Kevin Dieny:

And now we get to the meat of this.

Kevin Dieny:

Okay?

Kevin Dieny:

You have a good understanding of what's going on here.

Kevin Dieny:

You have a better understanding, maybe not a perfect understanding.

Kevin Dieny:

Okay?

Kevin Dieny:

Let's not get that.

Kevin Dieny:

That's not, that's not idealized here.

Kevin Dieny:

okay?

Kevin Dieny:

You have a better understanding of this problem, this behavioral issue.

Kevin Dieny:

You wanna.

Kevin Dieny:

Okay.

Kevin Dieny:

It's just one thing.

Kevin Dieny:

You have a better understanding.

Kevin Dieny:

You've gotten feedback from it.

Kevin Dieny:

You, they are, They understand clearly what's going on.

Kevin Dieny:

You understand clearly what's going on.

Kevin Dieny:

Okay, So you have this one time meeting.

Kevin Dieny:

Great.

Kevin Dieny:

Well, it's not gonna be a sustainable behavioral change unless you do

Kevin Dieny:

the next thing that I'm gonna recommend, which is praise.

Kevin Dieny:

Maybe you're expecting well just pay them to keep changing or motivate them

Kevin Dieny:

or slap a, you know, a punishment.

Kevin Dieny:

If they don't, No, no, no.

Kevin Dieny:

It's none of those things.

Kevin Dieny:

And I'm not saying, you know, just tell 'em that their hair looks nice, , or

Kevin Dieny:

the quality of the work is sufficient.

Kevin Dieny:

I'm talking about being very, very specific with praising the behavior, a

Kevin Dieny:

positive, changed behavior as it happens.

Kevin Dieny:

Now, this might be a little bit of a self correction.

Kevin Dieny:

How much are you praising employees today for what they do?

Kevin Dieny:

Okay.

Kevin Dieny:

The most common thing that I've heard is, well, I praise them when we'd

Kevin Dieny:

have these big wins, when there's something so spectacular happens that,

Kevin Dieny:

Wow, I'm just floored and I gotta come out there and I gotta praise them.

Kevin Dieny:

But, you know, for doing their job or doing their duty, you

Kevin Dieny:

know, for, for handling things the way that they're supposed to,

Kevin Dieny:

I don't, I don't say anything.

Kevin Dieny:

I think that's wrong.

Kevin Dieny:

I think that's incorrect, and I think that is part of what has to

Kevin Dieny:

be built in to a changing behavior is look at those duties, those

Kevin Dieny:

responsibilities that you wrote down.

Kevin Dieny:

Okay?

Kevin Dieny:

The things that are critical to your business success, the primary stuff, okay?

Kevin Dieny:

Even the secondary stuff can be in there.

Kevin Dieny:

Look at those things.

Kevin Dieny:

Do you praise those things when they happen?

Kevin Dieny:

I go, Well, that happens all the.

Kevin Dieny:

You know, they take 40 calls a day, so I'm, am I gonna praise after every call?

Kevin Dieny:

It's like, okay, well figure this out in like a reasonable way, Okay.

Kevin Dieny:

For walking into your office every time to say, Good job handling a call.

Kevin Dieny:

Good job handling a call.

Kevin Dieny:

Wow, you did a really good job handling that call.

Kevin Dieny:

No, no, no.

Kevin Dieny:

That's talk about is the opportunities to praise are everywhere.

Kevin Dieny:

There's 40 calls happening, right?

Kevin Dieny:

There's a lot of opportunities to praise.

Kevin Dieny:

Okay.

Kevin Dieny:

There's also some things you'd like to be changed.

Kevin Dieny:

There's also growth and improvement that could happen.

Kevin Dieny:

Okay.

Kevin Dieny:

So anytime you want to have like a serious conversation or help them or, or

Kevin Dieny:

maybe nudge them in the right direction.

Kevin Dieny:

Let's say you're, let's say that there's like a, uh, It's a good way

Kevin Dieny:

to describe this, like a piggy bank.

Kevin Dieny:

Okay.

Kevin Dieny:

And every time you're like, You know what, here's things that they could

Kevin Dieny:

do and improve and help and change.

Kevin Dieny:

Think about those things, right?

Kevin Dieny:

Like every month or so, two months, there's something that the

Kevin Dieny:

employee could do to be better, that would help them, okay?

Kevin Dieny:

When you address those things you're taking out of this

Kevin Dieny:

piggy bank, any money that's.

Kevin Dieny:

Okay, you're withdrawing as much as you possibly can because

Kevin Dieny:

it sort of credit against what you're about to ask them to do.

Kevin Dieny:

, you're basically saying, You know, I'm gonna really need you

Kevin Dieny:

to do something different, or you know, if this thing needs to be

Kevin Dieny:

addressed, we need this to happen.

Kevin Dieny:

Those are withdrawals.

Kevin Dieny:

Now, to make sure you're not bankrupting yourself in this relationship and this

Kevin Dieny:

management you have over the employees, you have to put stuff in there so

Kevin Dieny:

that you can pull something out.

Kevin Dieny:

And what you put in is praise.

Kevin Dieny:

An employee does something different than they did that moves them

Kevin Dieny:

forward in a prog in a progression.

Kevin Dieny:

Maybe they fulfills the duty, the role, the responsibility.

Kevin Dieny:

There's a task that they achieved.

Kevin Dieny:

Something that's done in a, in a great way, right?

Kevin Dieny:

Think about it specifically.

Kevin Dieny:

What did they do?

Kevin Dieny:

How did they do it?

Kevin Dieny:

What did you like about it?

Kevin Dieny:

What was so great about it?

Kevin Dieny:

That boom is a praise, and you do that often.

Kevin Dieny:

I'm not looking at management like all you're gonna do is praise

Kevin Dieny:

all day, every day when you have like 10 employees, no , right?

Kevin Dieny:

You pick and choose your battles, but you need to make sure that you know

Kevin Dieny:

the frequency that you're gonna ask them to change, to improve, to grow, to

Kevin Dieny:

reach a higher level than they're at.

Kevin Dieny:

You know, to do more, to take on more.

Kevin Dieny:

How, Think about that, like where you want them to go and where

Kevin Dieny:

they're at today to get there.

Kevin Dieny:

You know, there's certain steps they have to take.

Kevin Dieny:

Okay, what are those steps?

Kevin Dieny:

Are you tracking that?

Kevin Dieny:

That's what you know, you wanna help your employees get there and so you

Kevin Dieny:

have to be putting stuff in to the piggy bank of, uh, praise to make sure

Kevin Dieny:

that you're encouraging them along the.

Kevin Dieny:

You're helping them see, yeah, I am doing this, I do like this.

Kevin Dieny:

Or, Wow, this does feel good.

Kevin Dieny:

Or, Hey, he, he pays attention, he notices.

Kevin Dieny:

You know, that has to be part of the culture of your, of the business

Kevin Dieny:

to be able to foster change.

Kevin Dieny:

Okay, So again, let's ground ourselves here.

Kevin Dieny:

What's required to foster changing employee.

Kevin Dieny:

A culture, a culture of praise, a culture of acknowledging success,

Kevin Dieny:

acknowledging problems, being able to come together and figure out

Kevin Dieny:

ideas for changing things, right?

Kevin Dieny:

Getting feedback, a feedback culture.

Kevin Dieny:

All of that is involved and all of that needs to be sort of culturally

Kevin Dieny:

on level for the business as well.

Kevin Dieny:

Maybe for you as a manager, for you, for the business, if you're an owner.

Kevin Dieny:

Okay?

Kevin Dieny:

All of this is important.

Kevin Dieny:

So where do you start?

Kevin Dieny:

Right.

Kevin Dieny:

Again, pick an employee behavior, maybe the most problematic employee

Kevin Dieny:

with the most problematic behavior.

Kevin Dieny:

. Pick something.

Kevin Dieny:

Okay.

Kevin Dieny:

Figure out, define the.

Kevin Dieny:

Duties, the roles, responsibilities, what they're doing, what's what's required.

Kevin Dieny:

Make sure you have a better understanding of what's triggering

Kevin Dieny:

and causing that problem to occur.

Kevin Dieny:

Have some empathy.

Kevin Dieny:

Talk to them, get feedback.

Kevin Dieny:

Figure out how you could address this together.

Kevin Dieny:

Figure out if the, how well they understand the problem, right?

Kevin Dieny:

And then, okay, come up with a plan of how you, how you're gonna move forward.

Kevin Dieny:

Now, I think I've been told that this take, this can take like a month that.

Kevin Dieny:

You can get, boom, you can knock out a change.

Kevin Dieny:

I feel it's closer to like six to six weeks plus.

Kevin Dieny:

I don't think it takes that long.

Kevin Dieny:

I think you might, you might be surprised right now, going six weeks.

Kevin Dieny:

, I've been telling them for years they're not gonna change.

Kevin Dieny:

Uh, no.

Kevin Dieny:

Let's be very clear.

Kevin Dieny:

You could knock this out probably in four weeks.

Kevin Dieny:

. Well, let's stick to six weeks.

Kevin Dieny:

Okay?

Kevin Dieny:

Um, you go through the step, Okay?

Kevin Dieny:

So day one, identify these things, write them down, have that meeting with your

Kevin Dieny:

employee address and talk about what needs to happen, what needs to change.

Kevin Dieny:

And I'm thinking of this as a manager to their employee, so, right, So a

Kevin Dieny:

manager talking to an employee when the employee's got a behavior that needs.

Kevin Dieny:

Adjustment.

Kevin Dieny:

Again, using that special phrasing there, the changing of an employee behavior for

Kevin Dieny:

the better, right For them, better for the company, better for you better, right?

Kevin Dieny:

Win, win, win.

Kevin Dieny:

So those are the types of things you're gonna pick.

Kevin Dieny:

That one, you're gonna just try to understand it better, get to the bottom

Kevin Dieny:

of it, help them understand what's going on from your point of view, really

Kevin Dieny:

try to understand their point of view.

Kevin Dieny:

And then it's like, okay, here's the plan.

Kevin Dieny:

You might say, Well, what ideas do you.

Kevin Dieny:

For fixing this, solving this, addressing this.

Kevin Dieny:

And the employee might go, Well, wow, they're valuing my opinion.

Kevin Dieny:

You know?

Kevin Dieny:

That's, that's really great.

Kevin Dieny:

That's so interesting.

Kevin Dieny:

They wanna know what I think.

Kevin Dieny:

Um, maybe I'm new to the job, I just need more time, you know,

Kevin Dieny:

Maybe, So I'm pushing myself.

Kevin Dieny:

There's a lot going on at home.

Kevin Dieny:

There's a lot you could learn from getting feedback, having a one on one, and I'd

Kevin Dieny:

really suggest one on one for this.

Kevin Dieny:

Okay.

Kevin Dieny:

And.

Kevin Dieny:

You can go from, Man, this problem bugs me to, Wow, we're on the same team now.

Kevin Dieny:

We're both fighting for this thing to change for this, gosh, for this problem,

Kevin Dieny:

behavior to go away and it fills you.

Kevin Dieny:

And then with optimism, I have been surprised by this process

Kevin Dieny:

how much, sometimes you bring up something, you start talking about

Kevin Dieny:

it, you get in and they're like, This has been really impacting.

Kevin Dieny:

This has been hurting them.

Kevin Dieny:

Not just you, but maybe way more.

Kevin Dieny:

This has been way more of a problem for them than it is for you.

Kevin Dieny:

And so now you're just lifting off all this weight.

Kevin Dieny:

Gosh, how good that feels.

Kevin Dieny:

Right?

Kevin Dieny:

Now let's look at some alternative ways that you can change employee

Kevin Dieny:

behavior and why they're problematic.

Kevin Dieny:

Okay?

Kevin Dieny:

This is the ways you don't go . I would suggest you not.

Kevin Dieny:

Okay.

Kevin Dieny:

Um, sure you can motivate people with money.

Kevin Dieny:

You can motivate people with time off, with vacations, with flashier equipment

Kevin Dieny:

tools, a truck, uh, their own, their own.

Kevin Dieny:

Territory customer list.

Kevin Dieny:

Um, gosh, I think it sky's the limit, right?

Kevin Dieny:

You could do those things that are very much aligned with the

Kevin Dieny:

growth of the company, but are they gonna help the employee achieves?

Kevin Dieny:

Like, are, are you really setting up the employee for success

Kevin Dieny:

outside of just what their.

Kevin Dieny:

Responsibilities are like, how are you gonna help them achieve those?

Kevin Dieny:

And if there's problematic behaviors in a small area, it's probably gonna be

Kevin Dieny:

greater when you scale up things for them.

Kevin Dieny:

So you kind of wanna address everything as quick and as fast as you can, nip it and

Kevin Dieny:

then have it, you know, nip it as fast you can so that these things are addressed.

Kevin Dieny:

It is not so confrontational as it sounds.

Kevin Dieny:

But, and while those things are motivators, strong motivators, Hey, if you

Kevin Dieny:

do, you know, if you change this, then you know, I'll give you an extra day off every

Kevin Dieny:

quarter for every month or something.

Kevin Dieny:

Or let you leave early on Fridays.

Kevin Dieny:

That that could be a really, that could be amazing motivator, but there's still

Kevin Dieny:

the behavior that's not addressed.

Kevin Dieny:

Right.

Kevin Dieny:

Why are they doing it that way?

Kevin Dieny:

Why it's important, why they wouldn't, Like, why can't you just

Kevin Dieny:

say, Hey, this thing is a problem.

Kevin Dieny:

Can we fix this?

Kevin Dieny:

And they go, Yes.

Kevin Dieny:

Oh, I'd love to fix that.

Kevin Dieny:

Doom.

Kevin Dieny:

Boom, it's done.

Kevin Dieny:

Right?

Kevin Dieny:

What's keeping you from just getting to there?

Kevin Dieny:

And the, And those are the things that I think you need to work on with

Kevin Dieny:

praise, with the proper understanding through feedback of what's going on.

Kevin Dieny:

And that way you can address the true cause and problem at the source.

Kevin Dieny:

Okay.

Kevin Dieny:

Now, what does praise sound like?

Kevin Dieny:

Okay.

Kevin Dieny:

When you're say, Hey, do this thing, you get money, do this thing.

Kevin Dieny:

Right?

Kevin Dieny:

It's sort of a transactional thing.

Kevin Dieny:

It's coming from you.

Kevin Dieny:

It's not their idea.

Kevin Dieny:

Okay?

Kevin Dieny:

Praise sounds like, Hey, this thing that you are struggling with,

Kevin Dieny:

you're really doing well at this.

Kevin Dieny:

Like you've made improvements.

Kevin Dieny:

Wow, look at this.

Kevin Dieny:

This is where things are.

Kevin Dieny:

This is where they are.

Kevin Dieny:

Like, Yeah, this.

Kevin Dieny:

These are areas where like, it's tough, but look what improvement you've had here.

Kevin Dieny:

Like this is really good.

Kevin Dieny:

Um, it's specific, it's concise.

Kevin Dieny:

It needs to be done as soon as possible.

Kevin Dieny:

Okay.

Kevin Dieny:

So, I don't wanna say plug, but basically we have a service where

Kevin Dieny:

we listen to phone calls, okay?

Kevin Dieny:

And we grade the employees, we grade the call handlers.

Kevin Dieny:

So you can see how you're doing on the calls.

Kevin Dieny:

Now, what's really valuable, okay?

Kevin Dieny:

What could be a really valuable takeaway here, You get an employee,

Kevin Dieny:

they handle a bunch of calls in the day.

Kevin Dieny:

You, at the end of the, near the end of the day before that employee leaves, can

Kevin Dieny:

you look over a few and see some that were, that where they scored really?

Kevin Dieny:

You know, and you go, Wow, look at this.

Kevin Dieny:

Like they've made improvements in these areas.

Kevin Dieny:

Maybe in the greeting, maybe at this part of the call, maybe in the ask

Kevin Dieny:

part of the call, and then you can walk over and say, These calls, you

Kevin Dieny:

did this, You followed up really well.

Kevin Dieny:

This is really great.

Kevin Dieny:

I like the direction things are going really well, like

Kevin Dieny:

you're doing a great job.

Kevin Dieny:

Right.

Kevin Dieny:

This could be at the end of the week.

Kevin Dieny:

You know, something specific you want them to improve in this example

Kevin Dieny:

would be their appointment setting skills or call handling skill.

Kevin Dieny:

But that's where you want to address it quick, right?

Kevin Dieny:

You want to be able to talk to them at the PO near the point where the thing that

Kevin Dieny:

they're trying to change has happened.

Kevin Dieny:

If it is.

Kevin Dieny:

Let's say it's, you know, being rude on the phone and you're sitting next

Kevin Dieny:

to 'em and you go, I'll just sit with you for a little while, and you hear

Kevin Dieny:

them take the call and you go, Wow, that was a great way you answered that.

Kevin Dieny:

Okay.

Kevin Dieny:

, right.

Kevin Dieny:

When they have done it is a great time to emphasize praise.

Kevin Dieny:

Okay?

Kevin Dieny:

If you say, Hey, that thing you did five years ago, that was so good, , you

Kevin Dieny:

can see how that's problematic, right?

Kevin Dieny:

It's like, well, I don't remember why I did that, or, Well, I,

Kevin Dieny:

that's a long time people.

Kevin Dieny:

Really gonna be best to influence right in real time or right around the

Kevin Dieny:

time where they've done whatever it is that you want them to do better.

Kevin Dieny:

Okay?

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And anything they've done better is pray is worthy in that problematic direction.

Kevin Dieny:

Okay?

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So, It's like, man, this person always leaves their food in the fridge.

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That's the thing I want to change, you know?

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And then come, you know, at the end of Friday when they're leaving

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and you see their food's on, there you go, Hey, look at that.

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Your food's on in here.

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Thank you so much.

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Like I know that it's hard to remember and you're busy on Friday,

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but I really appreciate that.

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I might be banging right there.

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as a praise sounds like.

Kevin Dieny:

Okay.

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And.

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What's so great about that is it's like, wow, someone's,

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Someone's paying attention.

Kevin Dieny:

Okay?

Kevin Dieny:

. Someone's really focused on helping me, and that makes a big difference.

Kevin Dieny:

That'll help employees.

Kevin Dieny:

Encourage them to have sustainable changes, right?

Kevin Dieny:

Because that was the third point.

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Hey, you can change behavior in employees, but none of it's gonna stick around.

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Okay?

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Having the culture and praise continually turns behaviors into habits, turns

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everyday tasks into purpose, right?

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Helps people identify, this is why I'm doing this, Reminds them, keeps the thing

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going until it's second nature, right?

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Praise is so functionally valuable.

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It sounds like a gimmicky.

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Maybe to you.

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It did to me when I was first starting about it.

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Praise.

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You know, I don't do, I work off praise.

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Everyone essentially needs guidance and direction and reminders, feedback on how

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things are going, and they're going in the right direction that things are going

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well, and that is what praise gives.

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Now, the last time, let's say, think of the last time you praised your.

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Praise the specific employee.

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Praise the employee that you're thinking of.

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That's problematic.

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Alright, let's go there.

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When was the last time I go?

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Well, I do it all the time.

Kevin Dieny:

Okay.

Kevin Dieny:

Well, again, if we're focusing on changing one specific type of behavior, let's

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really focus on praising those things that an employee does along that, that

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line of that change, and that might require you to be a little more hands.

Kevin Dieny:

Okay, , do I have to sit with them when they answer phones?

Kevin Dieny:

Do I have to, you know, pick out the colored paper that I want?

Kevin Dieny:

Cuz they always use blue and I don't like that.

Kevin Dieny:

Yes, you may need to be a little more hands on.

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In the short term, right?

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Help them understand, get the right feedback, have that discussion so that

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in the long term you're not having that problem continually repeat, okay?

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You are upfront, frontloading your issue so that in solving it and helping

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and arming your employees with the tools they need to be successful,

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so long term, you can go back to focusing on the bigger picture.

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That's what this whole thing is about.

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Reacting to, let's say, Okay, things are going well, and then they reverse and

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they explode, or there's a behavior that's so bad, okay, I'm not, I don't think.

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You might have a totally different culture than this.

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I don't think it fosters change to belittle, discourage to break

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point out people's failings.

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Like the, you want to be honest, you wanna have a good one on one

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discussion about what's occurred.

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You want it to be very clear, but have it be a learning experience.

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You don't want it to be a debilitating experience.

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Okay.

Kevin Dieny:

Um, that's a totally different way of thinking.

Kevin Dieny:

Totally different way of motivating.

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I'm not, That train.

Kevin Dieny:

Okay.

Kevin Dieny:

I think that's going in the wrong direction personally, because I think

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how you react, how you model the things that you want to do, that you

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want in your business go a long way.

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I think same thing occurs in parenting.

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The same thing occurs in relationships with other people is you want

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there to be respect and even though someone may be, you know, Roles

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deep beneath you from where you are.

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There still should be some respect and understanding there of what's going on.

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If you wanna address a behavioral change, um, this is the guidance you

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can give managers beneath you and how you can even model it with them, right?

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Teach a manager how to fish and how they're fishing with their employees and

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then their, those employees aren't right.

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It passes on.

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So, you know, some simple questions.

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Do you have a clear understanding of the behavior that you wanna change?

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Could you get that?

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Do you have an understanding of your behaviors, , maybe you

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problematic behaviors that, uh, your employees see that would help them?

Kevin Dieny:

Okay.

Kevin Dieny:

That's interesting, right?

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Have you tried to kind of walk around in the shoes of your employees?

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That's the empathy part.

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And finally, how can you get more, How can you include praise, get more

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praise into your everyday business?

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Uh, It's harder with a lot of direct reports.

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It's harder when you don't see our direct reports that often, right?

Kevin Dieny:

When you're not involved in the behavior that you need to change,

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when there's, when you don't have the tools to understand how well

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they're doing, uh, or the ability to change something that is problematic.

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There are certain things you can't change.

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There might be situational things or environmental things, or just the way

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things are done that are not able to be changed, and that's where hiring for

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the right role, making sure that it's very concisely understood the duties,

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what's required for success, what every day might look like for someone, is

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helpful to have clear up front, right, that you're, you're really helping

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yourself in the long run by doing that.

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Reacting to when people make mistakes is first to, you know,

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try to try to calm it down.

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Let the situation be not so emotionally charged, and then you can address

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the problem in a logical way.

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Some of the problems clear up, you know, by themselves, essentially, you know,

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like someone does something the wrong way.

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They sort of.

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Hopefully we'll meet the consequences of that that aren't

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too harsh and bad, but things that really matter to your business.

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Those are things you really should figure out a good way to address them.

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If you need support and resources, I'm sure there's a lot of

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HR related stuff out there,

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There might even be some management.

Kevin Dieny:

Um, resources, videos, guides, tools.

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But I think a really great way if you're really interested in figuring out a

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problem, is to talk to a mentor or someone else who, maybe someone who's a little

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more experienced, someone who has, who you trust has very quality management skills,

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who has shown that they have a good repeatable way to help employees change.

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You know, if you know half the management population of the world is divided

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on this, try to find someone from the belief area that they know that this,

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this happens, and they have maybe some examples of them doing this.

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And I think that's a great resource for you.

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So that's it.

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That's it for the episode.

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I hope.

Kevin Dieny:

Uh, We took a serious look at this topic.

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We didn't get too deep into some of the specific problematic

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behaviors because some of them, there's just too many, right?

Kevin Dieny:

And there's a lot going on here, but I think you can grow your business

Kevin Dieny:

if you change employee behavior.

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If you model that yourself and if you figure out a way to praise your

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employees, to encourage them to change so that it's sustainable.

Kevin Dieny:

And I think you can do it.

Kevin Dieny:

I know you can do it.

Kevin Dieny:

And thank you for listening.

Kevin Dieny:

That's it for today.

Kevin Dieny:

I hope you are encouraged to go, develop some employees into better employees.

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