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The Roots of the Book with Sarah Cassidy
Episode 24 • 20th July 2023 • People Soup • People Soup
00:00:00 00:24:21

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Hi there and a very warm welcome to Season 5 Episode 24 of People Soup – it’s Ross McIntosh here. 

P-Soupers, we're continuing our chat with Dr Sarah Cassidy who is an educational, child and adolescent psychologist. She's also the co-author of an extraordinary book, Tired of Anxiety, A Kid's Guide to Befriending Difficult Thoughts and Feelings and Living Your Life Anyway.

In this episode we learn about the behavioural roots of the book - you'll hear how Sarah discovered relational frame theory (RFT) and Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) - and how she's using ACT to support her staff, using a training protocol developed by me and my mate, Paul Flaxman #flaxybabes #flaxintosh. We also hear Sarah's views on labels and her song choice.

People Soup is an award winning podcast where we share evidence based behavioural science, in a way that’s practical, accessible and fun. We're all about sharing the ingredients for a better work life from behavioural science and beyond.

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Friday 28 July - 10:00 to 11:00 GMT+1

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There is a transcript for each episode. There is a caveat - this transcript is largely generated by Artificial Intelligence, I have corrected many errors but I won't have captured them all! You can also find the shownotes by clicking on notes then keep scrolling for all the useful links.

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Transcripts

PART 2 -

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[00:00:06] Sarah: And I did a, a 700 page thesis and Maynouth actually made me take out two chapters because their criticism was that it was too long. Not that it was like torture for other people to read this 700 page thesis on my mad ramblings on, um, on the intervention.

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[00:00:44] Sarah: So it's pretty, pretty exciting.

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[00:00:54] Ross: And author. Sarah has co written an extraordinary book called Tired of Anxiety, a kid's guide to befriending difficult thoughts and feelings and living your life anyway.

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[00:01:18] Ross: And how she's using ACT to support her staff using a training protocol designed by me and my mate, Paul Flexman. Hashtag Flexintosh. Hashtag Flexibabes. We'll also hear Sarah's views on labels and her song choice.

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[00:02:03] Ross: It will be over four sessions in partnership with Joe Oliver at Contextual Consulting. and you'll find a link to all the details in the show notes. Also, an update on the live summer series of PeopleSoup podcast recordings. By the time this lands, we'll have welcomed our first guest.

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[00:02:40] Ross: And finally, reviews are in for part one of my chat with Sarah. Donna Mae Linton on Facebook said, Fabulous episode. Looking forward to the next two. Roberta Hines on Facebook said, Dr. Cassidy is hands down one of the most influential speakers on mental health for children and adolescents. is a privilege to work alongside of her.

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[00:03:03] Ross: Some poolside listening. Very proud of my friend and mentor, Sarah O'Connor Cassidy. Incredibly talented and a genuine human being. and on the Twitter our friend Duncan Gillard said, one of the very best speaking here. Twitter EPs, if you want to know how to truly make the world a better place, this is one Ed Psych I'd advise you to listen to.

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[00:03:46] Ross: For now, get a brew on and have a listen to part two of my chat with Dr Sarah Cassidy.

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[00:04:06] Sarah: they're so closely connected, So relational frame theory. I came across R F T kind of by accident. I had wanted to, so I had been working as an educational psychologist for the national ed psych service in Ireland. And I was living and working in rural Kerry. And mostly what I was doing was, educational assessments.

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[00:04:46] LABELLING

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[00:04:57] Sarah: You know, I, I think sometimes that can be really, really helpful in fact to say, here's, here's our case conceptualization, here's what I think is happening for a person. And this is a really good starting point for, our intervention. And, I think if the shoe fits and it's useful to wear it, let's put it on, you know, let's, let's name what this experience is and, and let's say, you know, here's a useful way for us to go forward for this person.

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[00:05:42] Sarah: and so, just for the record, in case people are saying, should I give my child or my adult or you know, is it useful or helpful to give this label? I usually say, yes, it is actually. And that's been my experience.

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[00:06:13] Sarah: Yeah,

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[00:06:18] Sarah: yeah,

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[00:06:22] Sarah: Yep.

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[00:06:24] Sarah: And also adults. So I know a lot of your listeners are, are adults rather than kids. or, they could be adults or, or parents. Um, so some of them will later go back and if they do have kids, they will then have these questions. Well, what about me if my kid has X, Y, and Z going on?

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[00:07:00] Ross: Yeah. Yeah. Discovering R

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[00:07:16] Sarah: And I was really frustrated that all I seem to be doing in my job as an educational psychologist. And I was quite happy to be working in the education system, but I was really frustrated that I just seemed to be doing assessment, assessment, assessment, assessment. And I didn't seem to be doing any treatment.

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[00:08:09] Sarah: And, and I mean, I, I didn't know about relational frame theory, but I just had a few speculations If we did, you know, some of these things I. and kids seem to be getting better at some of the things I was sort of speculating about if we did some of these things and it seemed to be having an impact on some of their intellectual skill sets.

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[00:08:46] Sarah: And um, they were walking around the parking lot outside of, uh, Brian Roach's office. And I'll never forget it cuz my dad was very patiently walking around the parking lot, holding Patrick's hand. And Patrick was, um, just, uh, walking along the curbs for three solid hours while Brian Roach and I hash hashed this out.

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[00:09:29] Sarah: But at at the end of that we showed that um, we could raise human intelligence. With derived relational, responding so I mean it was pretty, pretty exciting that, and we, um, we wrote the first paper demonstrating that we could raise IQ with relational frame theory. Yeah. So it's this, this was a fundamental shift in, how we think about human intelligence.

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[00:09:52] Ross: Pioneering,

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[00:09:58] Ross: notes and [00:10:00] and like I say, spoke about it a bit with Shane as

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[00:10:13] Ross: great. And, and Fairplay to Brian for,

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[00:10:17] Ross: for, for working with you and

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[00:10:21] Ross: No, that didn't come up the right way. Sarah.

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[00:10:28] Ross: Um, what I was trying to articulate was, was working with you to, over that three hour meeting

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[00:10:35] Ross: I'm gonna do a PhD.

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[00:10:58] Sarah: I didn't wanna tell a lie cuz you know, I'm quite precise in how I do things and I really didn't wanna tell this man a lie. And, uh, I was kind of like, yes and all I'd really done was Google R F T. so I was kinda like, I've heard of it. Um, but anyway, by the end of it, by the end of it I knew, knew R F T fairly well.

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[00:11:19] Sarah: so that did lead me into act because I did want to do, um, and I, and I, so I studied ACT during my PhD because actually everybody. Who was in Manu at that time, whether you liked it or not, you were going to be doing some act. And so while Brian wasn't that super into act at that time, everybody, well, I won't say everybody else in the department, but a lot of other people in the department at that time were studying act.

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[00:11:54] Ross: Wow. And it's a question I touched on during the intro, but how [00:12:00] do you fit all this in?

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[00:12:02] Sarah: You know, it, it's, this is only recently, become an interesting question to me because I actually did not know until very recently that I was actually doing more than other people. I actually genuinely never knew that. And, um, Ian Tyndall, my very good friend, and I think, you know, Ian Tyndall is a, is a very, very good friend of mine and he always makes comment on how much I do.

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[00:12:50] Sarah: And my younger brother came along and you probably remember me making reference to, you know, my mom carrying me around on her hip for years and years. Cuz I, I just, I just never, ever, ever slept. And to this, this day, this isn't a healthy thing. It'll probably give me Alzheimer's or something, you know, later in my life.

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[00:13:21] Sarah: But I actually never realized, that I might be doing more things in the hours in my day than other people are doing. But I, I wonder, is this part of like a neurodivergent brain thing where, I'm doing more things with the hours in my day and, and I think this might be part of Neurodivergence where, you know, you have sort of like the tendrils of, where your interest goes.

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[00:14:07] Sarah: Well, it's finished when it's done. Like, that's, that's what the answer is. It's finished when it's done. So like, if I make a commitment to something, I finish doing it when it is finished. And

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[00:14:18] Sarah: so, I don't know if that answers your question, but like I, I continue to do a job until I have finished that job. And I, and I make too many commitments because if you say to me, Sarah, will you do this thing? And I say, yes, that's really interesting or that's really important, and so I will do it.

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[00:14:36] Sarah: That has been something that's been really difficult for me to do, I am learning the art of saying no. but it's been really difficult for me because if something feels important to me, if it feels important to me, I tend to say yes to it.

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[00:14:51] Sarah: but I am learning in the interest of self preservation to start to say no.

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[00:15:17] Sarah: Yeah, I know. He's amazing.

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[00:15:21] Potential Transition SPOONS ACT Ross and Paul's Protocol

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[00:15:37] Sarah: And Josh? Yeah,

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[00:15:41] Sarah: it's amazing so far. Yeah. So what I, I'm so glad that you brought that up because you've been actually big on my mind, because we're, we're actually using your protocols right now, so, uh, thank you for bringing it up. What has happened? You, you know, about nacoa, um, the New England Center for O C D and anxiety, [00:16:00] and you, we've, you know, we haven't really, actually, actually haven't talked too much about the book, but myself and our team are doing, this New England Center for O C D and anxiety and, it struck me that in all that we're doing with our, our new service and we're seeing all these children and families with high rates of anxiety and we're asking our staff to, you know, train up quickly and see children and families with much higher rates of anxiety and to do e r p with them and learn these new testing tools.

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[00:16:35] Sarah: And I thought, gosh, their rates of anxiety, their, our staff rates of anxiety, stress, burnout, are bound to be a lot higher than normal. And how are they gonna cope, you know, how are they going to cope with their own high rates of stress, mental health and stress and burnout whilst treating all these children families?

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[00:17:24] Sarah: You know, wouldn't that be cool? Because, I suppose, sits in well with the, the way I, the way I view the world. And I care a lot about our, employee mental health and wellbeing too. So we are. Two sessions in. So we've had four hours of, uh, we've had four hours of flex and tos, and, uh, we're, we're collecting data, so I'll, I'll be able to tell you more at the end.

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[00:17:53] Ross: Beautiful.

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[00:18:12] Sarah: And so I'm, you know, leading your, I'm leading your, your intervention. and I'm delivering it to the Boston team and our Irish team and the LA team are watching it asynchronously. And, and, um, the New York team are, are watching it asynchronously as well, and Yeah. Yeah. So that's, that's,

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[00:18:45] Poss intro - Flaxintosh protocol

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[00:19:16] Sarah: So how can they cope with that? If they themselves have got high rates of stress and anxiety, and that's what the data shows us, that men mental health workers will have high ri, high rates of, of stress and burnout. So, so we need to help them cope so that they can carry, they can carry that,

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[00:19:54] Ross: And we're working with, uh, Uganda at the moment, Roscoe and [00:20:00] Comisi, and they're doing a systematic adaptation of the protocol for a Ugandan audience. And that's just firing off everything for me. Cuz I often go into an organization like a big hospital and think how can we reach more people with these skills?

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[00:20:40] Ross: So there's lots of adaptations going on. That seems to be our theme for, ongoing work of the, the, the protocol is how can we adapt it, and I'm looking how we adapt it for shorter interventions, maybe to get people with some skills and maybe funnel them into the longer program.

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[00:21:03] Ross: I will, I mean, I, I. My, my expertise is kind of based on Google, so Yeah. But once I've got a clearer idea, I, I will take you up

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[00:21:22]

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[00:21:23] Ross: So Sarah, a question I ask all my guests is for a song choice that would announce your arrival in a room for the next few weeks, maybe a couple of months. So it's not forever, but when you go to the supermarket, when you arrive home, this song would play. So what would your choice be?

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[00:21:45] Ross: why would you, why would you choose that?

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[00:22:14] Sarah: And a lot of them are here anyway, you know, but like, holding back the river is just an impossible task, but just slow down. Slow down. Let's look. Let's look inwardly, because you know, here you are. Here we are. And just pause.

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[00:22:35] Sarah: Yeah. Step inside yourself for a minute.

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[00:22:46] Ross: that's it, part two of three in the bag. Thanks so much to Sarah for being, frankly, a legend. Next week, we reach the dramatic climax. Where we talk about Sarah's book that she co wrote with Lisa Coyne, Tired of Anxiety.

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[00:23:13] Ross: If you like this episode of the podcast, please, could you do three things? Number one, share it with one other person. Number two, subscribe to the podcast and give us a five star review. Whatever platform you're on, and particularly if you're on Apple Podcasts, the Apple charts are really important in the podcast industry.

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[00:23:49] Ross: And on Facebook we are at People Soup Pod. thanks to Andy Klan for his Spoon Magic. And Alex Engelberg for his vocal. Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after [00:24:00] yourselves. Peace supers and bye for now. and then we'll talk about your book,

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[00:24:06] Ross: oh my God, I got quite emotional reading it at times because I was thinking flip a neck, if I'd had this when I was a child, how amazing it would be to, to read this with my mom. It was just like touched me.

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