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Defending Democracy: Ukraine Under Fire
Episode 1 • 3rd February 2023 • Democracy! The Podcast • CEPPS Advisor Adrienne Ross, Fmr Deputy Asst Secretary Strategic Communications, US Dept of State, Journalist
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In February 2022, Russian military forces launched a full-scale attack on Ukraine, escalating the conflict in the Eastern part of the country which began in 2014, and sparking the largest refugee crisis on the European continent since the end of World War II.

In the first episode of this in-depth capsule series, “Defending Democracy: Ukraine Under Fire,” Dr. Hanna Hopko, head of the National Interest Advocacy Network and former member of the Verkhovna Rada, walks you through the war’s broad impact on Ukraine and the world.

Then CEPPS International Republican Institute Political Parties Program Officer Vyacheslav “Slava” Lipetskiy shares a crucial decision he made in the first moments of the war that would change his life and the way he thinks about democracy forever. His powerful story is not to be missed.

Finally, as the ground war kicked into high gear, Russia’s assault in cyberspace also created havoc for Ukraine’s critical infrastructure. The International Foundation for Electoral Systems’ Senior Global Advisor for Cyber and Information Integrity, Matt Bailey, explains the critical role cyber warfare plays in Russia’s war on Ukraine.

Key Links

Follow CEPPS on Twitter and Instagram.

Democracy! The Podcast is hosted by CEPPS and Adrienne Ross with production assistance from Amy Radlinski.

Featured guests in this episode: 

  • Dr. Hanna Hopko, PhD;  Chair, National Interest Advocacy Network; Fmr. People’s Deputy of Ukraine (2014 -2019) & Chair, Committee on Foreign Affairs of the Verkhovna Rada.  
  • Vyacheslav (Slava) Lipetskiy, Political Parties Program Officer, The International Republican Institute for Ukraine. 
  • Matt Bailey, Senior Global Advisor for Cyber and Information Integrity, the International Foundation for Electoral Systems.

This podcast has been produced by the Consortium for Elections and Political Process Strengthening through the Democratic Elections and Political Processes Cooperative Agreement and is made possible by the generous support of the American people through the United States Agency for International Development.

Opinions expressed here are those of the host and the guests and do not necessarily reflect the views of USAID or the United States Government.  

Democracy! The Podcast is produced by Evo Terra and Sam Walker of  Simpler Media Productions.



This podcast uses the following third-party services for analysis:

OP3 - https://op3.dev/privacy

Transcripts

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Welcome to the second season of Democracy!

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The Podcast that shines light on some of the darkest challenges facing the

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fight for democracy around the globe.

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Brought to you by the Consortium for Elections and Political Process

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Strengthening in partnership and funding from our friends at the United States

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Agency for International Development through the Democratic Elections

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Political Processes Cooperative Agreement.

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I'm your host, Adrienne Ross.

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In the early hours of Thursday, February 24th, 2022, the Russian Army launched an

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illegal unprovoked assault on Ukraine, shattering peace on the European

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continent, creating upheaval and chaos in a nation that had just marked thirty

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years of hard-fought independence.

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Now, nearly a year into this war, CEPPS goes in-depth on the

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fight for Ukraine's sovereignty.

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In the first of this four-part miniseries, Defending Democracy:

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Ukraine Under Fire, we pull from the consortium's twenty-plus years of

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partnership with Ukrainians to bring you firsthand accounts of this brutal war.

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From Kyiv to the front lines, you'll begin to understand what Ukrainians are

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enduring for freedom, hear their greatest hopes for the future, and witness the

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remarkable courage it takes to defend democracy in these unimaginable times.

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Amy Radlinkski now with more.

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For more than thirty years, ever since the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991,

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Ukrainians have navigated unrelenting volatility and political turbulence to

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propel their nation towards freedom.

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Amid three revolutions, Ukrainians have improved responsiveness and

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accountability of local governments and political parties and promoted

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participation from all their citizens.

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Despite these gains to build a government for the people by the people, since

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2014, they have also endured Russian aggression in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine.

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In fact, in 2022, the territory was already under Russian occupation

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when Vladimir Putin gathered hundreds of thousands of military forces

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and heavy weaponry at the border.

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Ultimately launching a full-scale assault on the country, Putin sent troops over

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the Ukrainian border from the north, south, and east, targeting government and

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military institutions with airstrikes, missiles, troops, and tanks with the

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clear goal of taking Kyiv, the capital.

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Hanna Hopko is a long-standing CEPPS partner.

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She chairs the board of the National Interest Advocacy Network.

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This is a group founded by EuroMaydahn activists, who also served in Parliament

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when the revolution ended in 2014.

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While in office, Hanna chaired Ukraine's Foreign Affairs Committee.

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Today, she travels the world asking for help from friends and allies,

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high visibility that has landed her directly in Russia's crosshairs.

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We caught up with her in Warsaw where she told me about the moment she learned

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Russian troops were advancing on Kyiv and the tough choices she had to make.

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Many friends were like telling me, Hanna, you should think about leaving Ukraine

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because you are on the assassination list together with other activists.

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So your life is under threat, so please consider it seriously.

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I knew about this, but at that time, I thought that for people like me, it's

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important to be in Ukraine, to stay in Kyiv and demonstrate the whole world

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that we will fight and we will not allow Russians to occupy our capital.

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We will not surrender.

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So we are not afraid.

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And "we" was my husband and guinea pig stayed, uh, stayed in Kyiv, in our flat.

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And when, um, uh, February 24 in the morning, Russia started to bomb Kyiv,

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we were still deciding what to do.

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So, uh, I, I was in Kyiv, but then, uh, moved thirty kilometers

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outside Kyiv because of this.

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All information that Wagner groups and, uh, Khedira guys, if they

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occupy Kyiv, they have a list.

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What they did in Kherson region with my friends, patriots, they came to

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their families, tortured, killed.

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And what we've seen this collective graves in Mariupol and Kherson in Kharkiv region.

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So, and this is why I decided like to live outside Kyiv.

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But then, many foreigners, higher-level officials came to Poland, to Jeshua.

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My friends told me, Hanna, with your foreign affairs committee experience,

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why you are staying in Ukraine?

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You should be here and talk to these people and convince them to

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help Ukraine, to provide weapons, to impose tougher sanctions.

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Come here and almost in one week period, I left to Poland and we

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established the International Center for Ukrainian Victory, and we

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launched the center on March four.

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March four was symbolic for me because it's my, uh, birthday.

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And for me, uh, it was really, um, very heartbreaking.

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So I remember all our TV interviews, it was hard to stop crying.

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And, seeing how Russians used vacuum bombs and deliberately attacked

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theaters, uh, hospitals, maternity hospitals, seeing these pictures, this

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was like, like without crying, you cannot accept this reality, honestly.

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And then, uh, my friend, like was like, stop crying because you have to be

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very strong and mobilize the world to support Ukraine to win, to defeat Russia.

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But crying will not help you.

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And people who are under occupation will not help your armed forces, you,

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because, uh, it's really very physically hard every time, but it was really very

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hard to focus because I was thinking about these people raped, uh, women,

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kids, all these family tragedies.

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So, this unstoppable work helped, uh, not to, to die of crying.

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It's about your moral duty to serve your country.

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For five years, from 2014 to 2019, I served my country advocating for

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tougher sanctions against Russia, a recognition of, uh, Russian Federation

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as a state sponsor of terrorism.

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Uh, many campaigns to release Ukrainian hostages.

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And it's very sad because one of them, Hennadiy Afanasyev, a political prisoner

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who was sitting in jail for his position against annexation of Crimea, two

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years he was almost like in captivity.

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He was released in 2016, and he was just uh, uh, yesterday killed in

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the frontline defending Ukraine.

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So within this nine years...it's a marathon when you have no

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luxury to cry or to be weak.

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You have to be strong because at stake, the future of your kids,

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your future grandkids, your nation.

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What has it been like to keep talking about Ukraine and to talk about

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Ukrainians' needs to the whole world?

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It's really important to explain to the whole world and mobilize uh,

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resources, uh, political will, public support, and not to allow this, uh,

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Russian fatigue to decrease the level of support and understanding why victory

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of Ukraine is in strategic interest of the West, in global communities.

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And Russia with China's support with Iran, North Korea, Belarus.

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So this is why democracies should demonstrate solidarity, unity, and

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consolidate efforts not to allow this authoritarian club to attack,

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not just Ukraine, because we know their goal, it's a global dominance.

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Hanna, you've been on the record in many, many places talking about

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Ukraine's need for weapons and, and support from Western countries.

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Recently you made a lot of headlines when you said, "Democracy without

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weapons is just blah, blah, blah."

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Can you talk a little bit more about what you mean when you say that?

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So let's be very frank, uh, the sooner we reach parity with Russia

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on heavy arms, the faster the war will end with Ukraine's victory.

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Because without NATO standard heavy armor, artillery and air defenses, ammunition

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and equipment, which we need to be able to continue a counter offensive operations.

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Everyone say, "Oh, Ukraine is a shield of Europe."

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But let's be honest, we don't want to be a shield.

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Because we are dying.

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Ukraine is bleeding.

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Give us shields for each soldier of Ukraine, NATO standard weapons, and

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then we will contribute to the global security, but we don't want to be

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considered as just shield because the price we are paying, it's lives.

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My best friend, Adriana Susak, she just visited the Pentagon in September.

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She was heavily wounded because of lack of armored vehicles.

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Of course, we want to save lives because people who are now defending

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Ukraine with a risk to be killed, they are the future of Ukraine.

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They have to be protected by modern ammunition, armored vehicles.

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After victory to be part of modernization of our economy, armed forces, and also

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building strong Ukraine because victory is not just about defeating Russia,

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it's about building strong institutions.

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It's about rule of law.

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It's about successful model for the whole democratic world, like Ukraine

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defeated this imperialistic Russia and then became a true example

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of powerful democracy with all institutions and other characteristics.

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How is Adriana, is she okay?

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She is, uh, recovering.

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Uh, she is in military hospital now, but, uh, we cannot say about speedy recovery.

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I told her, like, God help you to survive and now you have to recover faster.

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And um, she's like, "Oh, I'll be back to the battlefield."

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I say, look, now you will continue...

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Not so fast.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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But this is the, how people, they have this resilience, this fighting spirit.

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You are a politics and journalism expert by schooling.

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Can you help us better understand the role media and information

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is playing in this war?

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Truth matters and, uh, unfortunately, I must, uh, say that international

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reporting on Russian war against Ukraine since 2014 deserves criticism.

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The biggest criticism is that unprovoked aggressor, Russia, has enjoyed a

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disproportionally larger voice, than innocent victim of, uh, Ukraine.

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Consequently, a number of Russian fake propaganda narratives have

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become part of western media landscape with direct consequences

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on the political decision-making.

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The most detrimental, prevailing narratives in major international

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media, even until today, is narratives about Ukraine war or war in Ukraine.

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So they orchestrated all of this and it was hard to convince even

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the most influential media, please stop using "conflict," start use

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"war," a Russian war against Ukraine.

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So changing the language is one way to fix this information system.

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Is there anything else you would like to see changed?

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So I'm very thankful to journalists who are working now in Ukraine.

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Because it's really important because before there were many,

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uh, foreign correspondents of the most influential media writing

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about Ukraine being in Moscow.

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So I'm really thankful for those who are working in Ukraine, especially my

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condolence to the families of those who lost journalists working in the warzones.

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It's really, uh, their sacrifice and, uh, the price they paid to deliver truth.

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But there are still countries where we have, uh, media censorship like China.

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Also, there are double standards or in different media in - in

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India we faced in other countries.

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So we still have to invest in media independence and not allow

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authoritarian regime actually to use their influence on media to deliver

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Russian propaganda, not truth.

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We've seen Russia weaponize information, food, energy, even

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water in Mykolaiv, and now winter.

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And you've talked about this a little bit, but what do the next

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few months look like for Ukrainians?

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These are going to be the most challenging months since the second World War

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that any European nations has endured.

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Let's be frank.

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And the scale of humanitarian, economic, energy, culture, environmental,

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ecocide, deliberately inflicted by Russia is of historic proportion.

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So Russia's obliteration of Ukrainian civilian infrastructure is meant to

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force Ukrainians to flee, to entirely crash the Ukrainian economy, and

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deprive our armed forces of support.

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Just on my way from Ukraine, at Ukraine-Polish border, I saw and

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helped to take heavy boxes for two elderly women, a mom and a daughter,

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like, uh, 65- and 88-years-old.

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When I saw them with four heavy bags, and, uh, I, I tried to help them and

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ask like, what are, why are you leaving?

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"Cause we are from Kherson, they destroyed our house.

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We have no place to live, and these four bags, this everything we have."

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I think that we have been warning about this Russian strategy of terror

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for this winter since the spring.

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Unfortunately, our voices were not heard or taken seriously.

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No one wanted to believe that Russia would devolve into an openly terrorist regime.

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I'm thankful to those nations who already recognize Russian aggression as

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a genocide, why it's important because, uh, Russian goal is to destroy Ukraine

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Nation, Uk- because we are Ukrainians.

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For centuries, we were fighting for, uh, freedom.

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This is why we consistently defend our values, even at the cost of massive

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sacrifices in the face of threats, uh, that are much bigger than us.

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It's a part of our identity, like freedom is our religion.

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And, uh, this is why what Russians, uh, with their imperialistic nature

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of statehood, they don't understand why for us, we prefer to die for

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freedom than to be in slavery.

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Now, 90% of the population think if Russia, even if Russia continue to

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terrorize us, uh, destroying critical infrastructure, trying to freeze it,

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we will remain such higher level of fighting spirit and resistance because,

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uh, we understand that either we win or concentrational camps will be on all

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territories where Russian occupiers are.

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What is happening in-

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And that's not an option.

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Yes, it's not an option for us.

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So this is why we're trying to explain our western friends, uh, our partners,

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only military defeat of Russia.

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What is your greatest hope for the end of this war?

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The greatest hope for the end of this is, of course, justice because, uh,

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all families, the victims of Russian genocide, we have to take care of them.

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And justice, all the people like Putin, collective Putin, Russian

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Armed Forces, Russian society, they have to go through justice.

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I think the most important is that my daughter and my grandkids, they will

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never face the genocide like we are now.

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And they will never be forced to flee their country, their homeland.

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You have to do everything possible.

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Ukraine defeat Russian imperialists, the future generations of Ukrainians,

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they will contribute to innovations and since Ukraine is a very

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rich country of talented people.

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So this is our role, not just to be bread basket, or

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security guarantor of the world.

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I want the new generations of Ukrainians not to focus how to defeat Russia,

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imperialism, authoritarianism, how to uh, become a global contributor to democracy.

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And there are many people who joined Ukrainian Armed Forces now, brave

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Chechens, people who are helping us to win, and I will enjoy meeting these

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people and they will not be under the repression, uh, from Fazbear, and they

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will have right to speak, to write post on Facebook, and no one will

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come and punish them and put in jail.

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So this will be also our contribution to see the world free from

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authoritarian repression machine.

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Hannah, let's leave it there.

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You're such an inspiration.

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We wish you better days ahead, and we certainly wish Adriana a speedy recovery.

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Thank you so much for everyone who supported Ukraine, who believe in

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our victory, let's win together.

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An another patriot who believes in Ukraine's democracy with his

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whole heart is Slava Lipetskiy.

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Before the invasion, Slava worked in the International Republican Institute's

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Kyiv office, helping CEPPS strengthen democracy by training thousands

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of political party poll watchers.

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But as Russian missiles reigned down on his homeland, Slava

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knew exactly what he had to do.

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Now I defend democracy.

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You cannot talk about defend democracy, and in it's, it's happened.

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You must do this in any way or your word is nothing.

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You've been working on democracy for many, many years, have you not?

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Yes, and it's my religion now.

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Uh, maybe you remember this slogan on our trade union building, "Freedom is our

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religion," and democracy is my religion.

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When Soviet Union destroyed, I saw how the reality is totally different.

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I watched on TV or read in newspaper and it's changed to me,

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uh, a lot of people understand how freedom, how democracy important.

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And they're ready to defend this with their phones.

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They're ready to fight for this, uh, issue.

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And it's amazing how it's working and how small Ukraine, but with brave

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people, people who understand what is the freedom, what is the democracy, what is

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the purpose to influence on government, how it's important in their life.

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Can you take us back to February 24th?

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How has your life changed?

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I received a phone call from my colleague, Victoria Chinook, at 5:15am.

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She told me, "Slava, war started."

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I immediately take my backpack with everything and went to recruiting center.

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In 5:40am, I signed the paper, and 11:00pm I will be in my brigade camp.

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In, uh, February 28th, I was in [unclear name of city] and fighting

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with, uh, Russian, uh, paratroopers.

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I did everything what I can to defend my colleagues, to defend my

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country from February 28th till May.

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Yes, I feel fear, uh, but it's different kind of, of fear.

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One fear killed you, one fear mobilized you.

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My fear mobilized me every time.

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And I, again, around me was, uh, perfect guys who helped me, who

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saved my life, who saved my hand.

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What happened to your hand?

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Unfortunately, I received, I received, uh, one pieces of, uh, metal in my head.

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Helmet saved my life, uh, and two pieces in my hand.

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Unfortunately, both hand in one time, one broken my, uh, bone from

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left side, broken my, uh, my ribs.

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That's why now my right hand is not bad, but left I cannot use for 100%.

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There's so much to ask you and talk about, but you obviously had a lot of

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time while you were fighting to think about democracy and democracy in Ukraine.

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It's very interesting, uh, with people, uh, during our discussion

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after, uh, our operation, they asking me about politicians and sometimes I

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destroyed a lot of myth about politics.

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People, guys, politics, it's everything.

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What you have in your life, it's everything politic.

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And it's the worst things which Ukrainian politics, um,

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did for Ukrainian, uh, voters.

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And they say, "Oh, please, if you don't touch politics, it's our job, not your.

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Just vote for me one time and nothing else.

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Don't care about this."

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Please, if you know, if you feel what you can change something on

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your villages, your island, your building, participate in politics.

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Can you draw the line between the work that you're doing with CEPPS IRI in

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Ukraine, the political programming, the supportive mayors, institutions, all that

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kind of work to the fight and the war?

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Why are those two things equal and, and equally important right now

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while you're at war with Russia?

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I can say my work in, uh, this politician party and layo much important than now.

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This would job for short period.

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Yet more important, more dangerous, and more bloody.

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But if we are talking about society, work with, uh, mind of the people with

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politic party, with politicians, with, uh, local elected deputies, more important.

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During this war, we've seen local government become more

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important than ever, the mayors, the locally elected officials.

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Can you talk a little bit about what you've witnessed in local government and

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how that working together has continued to help Ukraine fight the Russians?

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Because, uh, they more closer to voters and people with their problems go to

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the mayor, please give me, uh, water, give me electricity, or give me food.

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So democracy has become a little more apparent to people, perhaps.

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They, they see how it works and why coming out to vote and support

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freedom of choice is more important?

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Yeah.

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But again, during my conversation with my colleague on frontline,

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I say, you every time responsible for your voices, for your choices.

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You cannot say, no, no, no, I am, did not come to poll station.

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That's why I don't care about, it's not my choice.

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I say, "Yeah, it's your choice."

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What kinda work have you been doing now that you're back in the office

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with the political programming?

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Have you, have you been supporting parties or where have you been

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focused the most right now?

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We have now European solidarity, and it's well-organized political party.

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From other hand, we have majority in the Parliament and a lot of majority in a lot

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of main, the major city around Ukraine is a, uh, servant of the people party.

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But I cannot say what they grow very quickly.

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And we have 18% people who now, who still do, or no, maybe less, maybe 10%, still

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to thinking about Russia is our friend.

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And, of course, they vote for pro-Russia political party.

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So your, your thought about the future and your future work is that it needs

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to be more holistic to all of society?

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Yeah.

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So perhaps democracy is more accessible?

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Yeah.

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And understood by Ukrainians?

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Yeah.

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First of all, it's education about responsibility of the goverment.

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Who for what responsible?

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Because [small chuckle] people have broken elevator in the home

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and they send letter to president.

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And second, what - guys, politics, it's interesting.

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It's, it's have influence for all your life, all pieces of your life,

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not whole life, all, everything.

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And if you feel what you can change something, please participate.

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That's why I tried to invite new faces on my seminars.

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I, when I spoke with political party, please give me fresh faces.

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And I very happy with the IRI and the representatives IRI have

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the voice and a lot of political party listen to this voice.

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And they started to listen.

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People not just to read, uh, the report from local party organization

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when everything is okay, but they started to hear people all side.

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And like for me, it's perfect step for future political party, for growing

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healthy political organization.

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I spent, uh, fifteen years to receive a such result.

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To have Ukrainians understand how to be involved in democracy

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and that it's Ukrainian owned.

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I think it's very important.

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It's very perfect for CEPPS' results.

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I understand it's not visible.

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You cannot put this on paper or show for donors, but it's very important

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to us and for future for country.

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So put the power to the people?

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Yeah.

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It's your decision, your political party, your voters,

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your team, what, how they fix it.

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But we advocated.

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It's not created out of nothing.

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We have, we look at the problem.

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It's, it's too slow.

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Every single process is very slow.

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And unfortunately, maybe it's like mentality.

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Oh, it's, it's, maybe it's - it's, it's working, we keep it.

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Don't destroy nothing.

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It, if it's, it's not working perfectly, it's, don't give

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result, but no, no, no changes.

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Well, we know democracies are fragile.

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And we know that they're always a work in progress, but getting people to

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always know that is sometimes difficult.

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They understand what is democracy, uh, why if you are looking for the

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territory, who can under control now, under Russia, look at for Crimea

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people who, after eight years of Russia occupation, they're ready to go on

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demonstration and defended their rights.

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Do you think it's much different in, in, among the people understanding in,

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in Crimea versus Kyiv, for instance?

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No, I think no.

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If you're talking, it's not different between democracy.

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It's about talking propaganda.

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Crimea people want to have big salaries as they think in Russia or build big

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freedom as they think in Russia, because it's Russia creates this myth again.

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Uh, that's why they fighting, can use democracy tools for fighting for their

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rights as they see and as they feel.

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If you could tell the world one thing about Ukraine right now, what would it be?

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Everybody do something to create and to build big, powerful anthill.

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I want say just thank you very much all American who support us, and I want

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say big thanks for American taxpayer.

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Without your taxes and your...

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I think everything finished here much, much, much quicker.

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That's why I thank you, I want to say, thank you very much uh, Americans, uh,

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people, Americans taxpayer who support us and um, in this situation show who

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is a real friend and who is a enemy.

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Thank you so much for your frank stories and your candor on democracy

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and the situation in Ukraine.

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Slava, we wish you the best.

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As the Kremlin's ground war escalated, Russia also took

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their assault into cyberspace.

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Using a weapon called "Foxblade," they attacked the country's critical

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infrastructure and military systems.

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We turn now to Matt Bailey, the International Foundation for

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Electoral Systems (IFES) Senior Global Advisor for Cyber and

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Information Integrity, with more.

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Matt recently returned from Kyiv where he assessed Ukrainian cyber

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defenses and even their ability to hold secure elections when they're ready.

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This question of post-war digital and cyber requirements

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is actually really timely.

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Even though the conflict is continuing, there've been fresh waves of, of

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attacks strictly on Kyiv and across the country, the government, the individuals

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on the street, everybody's already thinking about what comes after the war?

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What comes after the conflict?

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Uh, what's the future of democracy in Ukraine?

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And there's a couple things that are really critical.

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Um, the first is that, you know, there may not be a clean moment where

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it's obvious that the war in the real world or in, in cyberspace is over.

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And I think that's doubly true of cyberspace.

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So you may have a moment where peace comes to Ukraine, where there's a

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formal, perhaps end of hostilities, but cyber attacks, you know, as we know

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from from the United States and are continuing concerns about cyber attacks

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on our infrastructure, including during elections, are likely to continue.

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So a lot of the discussion that I was having there was with a lot of different

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folks, civil society, government, and otherwise to say, what is Ukraine

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gonna need over the long haul?

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And, particularly, through that moment where it transitions from

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war to peace and elections, what is it gonna need in terms of support?

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But a lot of the discussion we were having was with folks who were worried about,

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uh, the security of future elections, the security of critical services for

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Ukrainians that they'll need to access.

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You know, a lot of these discussions at a higher level thinking, how do we manage

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the risk that the whole country is likely to face in the context of cybersecurity?

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Rather than looking at individual computers and saying, hey, is

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your password strong enough, or do you need a better firewall?

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So what did you find while you were talking to these people in Kyiv?

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Are they cyber ready?

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You know, as ready as you can be.

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You know, Ukraine, Kyiv, but also across the country, it's one of the most

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sophisticated governments, cultures, and economies in terms of cybersecurity,

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in terms of technology, on the planet.

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I mean, they, they really know what they're doing.

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And, of course, you can see that in terms of this sort of the cyber

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offensive aspect of the conflict and in terms of the social media game that

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the government Ukrainians are bringing.

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This is not like a bunch of folks who just woke up and realized the internet

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matters because there's a conflict.

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But on the other hand, the attacks they're facing are incredibly

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sophisticated, well-funded, and sustained.

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And so, the needs here are not necessarily just about like, again, teaching people

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the x, y, z of, of cybersecurity or how to protect themselves, it's about

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how to build long-term democratic resilience and cybersecurity resilience

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for the country in this new environment.

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So you were looking at more than just the electoral systems?

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Yeah.

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I mean, it's every part of civilian life and government in Ukraine is

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under attack in cyberspace right now.

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Um, that was true before the actual hostilities began, uh, and it's

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certainly true in this environment.

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Um, so you're dealing with sustained, uh, what are called DDoS attacks,

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distributed denial of service attacks, sustained hacking campaigns, uh,

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disinformation campaigns that kind of are riding off the back of that.

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Uh, all sorts of crazy stuff going on.

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It's a world in which you're trying to not just understand what's the latest

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set of attacks, but actually build, proactively build for security against

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who knows what's gonna come next.

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So why is it important to track cyber attacks in Ukraine now?

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I mean, you've sort of touched on this, but, but why now?

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I mean, there's so many other things to worry about.

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There's room for not just for, you know, missiles to, to interrupt

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critical infrastructure like water or heat or electricity, but for cyber

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attacks to do the exact same thing.

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So these, these attacks just on a day in, day out basis and affecting

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people's quality of life, their ability to go about business but also to

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survive, is very much, uh, rooted in cyberspace as well as the real world.

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But also, tracking these, the cyber attacks that are happening, the

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specific types of attacks, how they're being coordinated with these larger

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scale of aggression against Ukraine is really also critical for, for

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Europe and for the world to understand what might come next if there's a

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continuing escalation in hostilities.

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We've seen attacks against other countries that have shown solidarity

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with Ukraine like Lithuania, against their infrastructure, as well.

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And so, understanding what these attacks look like, how they're evolving, and

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how they relate to sort of the, the geopolitical sphere, the larger situation

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in the world is really, really critical, not just for Ukraine, but for everybody

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to understand how to protect ourselves and protect democracy around the world.

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So we know in the days leading up to the invasion February 24th, that the

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Russians were using a cyber weapon called Foxblade, and there's been a

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lot of discussion about this online.

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What can you tell us about it, and, and how does it work?

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Countries, especially wealthier ones around the world, are

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stockpiling what are called exploits.

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And so what an exploit is, is it's basically like a, a vulnerability

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that's never been discovered before, at least not publicly, in

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commonly used software systems.

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So Foxblade, um, if I understand correctly, was using an exploit in

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Microsoft's, uh, database server software.

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So that's very, very commonly used in government, in small and large

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business all around the world, and certainly in, in Ukraine.

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Think of it as like an unlocked back door, an unlocked window, as

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a way to get inside of systems that Russian military wanted to target.

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You know, sometimes these types of attacks are very broad spectrum.

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They'll just sort of like try to hack into any computer that's

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attached to the internet or within a kind of a geographic area.

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Uh, in this case, Foxblade appears to have been used in a very relatively

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surgical or precise manner to target critical infrastructure, uh, government

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military systems within the country.

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So as you had tanks and military personnel rolling across the border

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into Ukraine, you also had this malware attack being deployed against

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what we think of as sort of critical infrastructure within the country.

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What it enables is almost anything, frankly.

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So, it was being used to delete data, so to think of it as like wiping the

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accounts off of government servers so that people can't log in and do their jobs.

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To extract usernames and passwords, but also it allows those computers,

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and this is a very common thing, to be taken over, almost like used as zombies

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to then also conduct further attacks.

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So Foxblade was, uh, sort of the tip of the spear for cyber attacks, uh,

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against Ukraine as the parallel real world attacks were taking place, and

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it enabled a whole bunch of different types of mischief, ranging from deleting

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data to actually weaponizing the systems that it was used to in infect.

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And do we still see that today, or did that go away in February?

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When these types of attacks are, are detected, in this case, Microsoft

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actually had a really critical role in detecting that these attacks were

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happening against their software and, and supporting the response, what you

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can start doing is called patching.

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So you can patch individual systems that are, uh, either infected or susceptible

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to being infected, and then you can start trying to basically clean up the servers.

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So there's been a, an amazing response, uh, in part supported by Microsoft and

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by US government, Ukrainian government, so forth to, to get this under control.

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But unfortunately, a great number of servers and systems around the world

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remain unpatched to this particular vulnerability, but more worryingly,

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there's no doubt that Russian intelligence services and military

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have a bunch more exploits that they're just sort of sitting on and

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waiting for the right moment to use.

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So Foxblade was a particular and sort of novel attack at that moment,

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but the reality remains that you could see similar or new types of

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attacks like this any given day.

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So what is IFES going to do to help Ukrainians protect themselves from

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future and ongoing cyber attacks?

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There's no shortage of aid that's being supplied by the international community

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supporting all different aspects of cybersecurity, and, and other needs for

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Ukrainians and the Ukrainian government.

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What we're particularly worried about is that moment where there's a

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transition from a wartime emergency footing to being able to need to

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conduct the next round of elections.

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There are meant to be elections in 2023, 2024 in Ukraine, and, and all of

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this will be affected by the emergency, by the conflict that's continuing.

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But there's gonna be, uh, a real moment of scramble to make that round of

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elections timely, secure, and credible.

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Uh, something that we, we sometimes struggle with under the best

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circumstances around the world these days.

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So what we're doing is we're really working in tandem with every possible

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stakeholder around the elections, whether that's the election commission, whether

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that's civil society, to understand what are all the risks, what are all the

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needs, for that kind of all-hands-on-deck moment for those first and, and subsequent

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rounds of elections from a cybersecurity standpoint, as well as just more broadly.

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We're worried about how many voting booths, physical voting booths

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can we locate and how do you get back in touch with all the voters

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and make sure the voting role is intact and, and has integrity?

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All of these questions are gonna be really, really critical, unprecedentedly

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complex, and cybersecurity has an overlay over all of them.

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So if you had to rate how Ukrainians are set up to manage the

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future, how would you rate them?

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I was just profoundly impressed by everybody that I spoke with,

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whatever their role, whatever their personal circumstances, because, of

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course, many of these folks, whether they're civil servants or journalists

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or everyday people are struggling with personal trauma and adversity.

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Their families are flung around the world in some cases.

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In the face of all of that, the attention to detail, the attention to continuity

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of government, continuity of what it means to be Ukrainian, of, of democracy,

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was incredible across the board.

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Matt Bailey, IFES's Senior Cyber Information Integrity Advisor, thank

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you so much for joining us today.

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Thank you.

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For the most up-to-date information on CEPPS democratic support, don't

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forget to check the show notes.

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On the next episode, straight from the front lines, the people of Mykolaiv

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are not giving up or giving in.

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"Russians still think that if they kill the mayor, the city will give up.

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And for sure, they don't know how democracy works."

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Now, their brave mayor, Oleksandr Senkevych, sits down with me

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to tell his tough city story.

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Plus, hear from three members of Ukraine's Parliament who will let

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nothing stop them from upholding their sworn duties to their country.

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Democracy!

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The Podcast is brought to you by the Consortium for Elections and Political

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Process Strengthening (CEPPS) through the Democratic Elections Political

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Processes Cooperative Agreement, and is made possible by the generous

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support of the American people through the United States Agency for

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International Development (USAID).

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Opinions expressed here are those of the hosts and the guests, and do

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not necessarily reflect the views of USAID or the United States Government.

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This podcast is produced by Evo Terra and Sam Walker of Simpler Media Productions.

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For more information on Democracy!

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The Podcast and to access the complete archives, please visit CEPPS.org/podcast.

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