E65 | vicki abadesco! | Why I Yearn For More Empathy In The World
Episode 6514th July 2022 • My Fourth Act Podcast • Achim Nowak
00:00:00 00:39:31

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The daughter of Filipino immigrants, vicki abadesco! has become an internationally recognized leader in the field of social-emotional learning, anti-bullying, and creating a more empathy-based world. Vicki brings over 35 years of experience teaching life skills to young people and adults.

More importantly perhaps, vicki is a gatherer, storyteller, leader and community builder. She is a fellow for the Dalai Lama Center for Ethics and Transformative Values at MIT. In 2000, vicki co-founded an extraordinary organization, Soul Shoppe, that has impacted over 600,000 young people across the United States with its work. In a world of Highland Parks, Uvaldes, Buffaloes and AK 15s, we need more vicki abadescos!

Why empathy was always a core value for me. How my upbringing in a tough community shaped my adult choices. What I know about teaching self-management tools to youth. How I stay centered and energized while running a not-for-profit organization.

www.vickiabadesco.com

www.soulshoppe.org

Transcripts

vicki abadesco!:

And now I'm in a high school, where I'm a violence prevention specialist, and a gang prevention specialist. We have these kids that are raging, we have these kids who are angry for very good reasons. And they're also violent. And so here I have this very soothing voice, calming presence, that can see through the violence see through all of that pain, and I want to get somewhere other than that behavior. So there's a saying that our greatest wounds are our greatest gifts.

Achim Nowak:

Hey, this is Achim Nowak, executive coach and host of the MY FOURTH ACT podcast. If life is a five act play, how will you spend your for that? I have conversations with exceptional humans who have created bold and unexpected FOURTH ACTS, listen, and to be inspired. And please rate us and subscribe on whatever platform you are listening on. Let's get started. I am so happy to welcome Vicki our desk to them MY FOURTH ACT podcast. Vicki is an internationally recognized leader in the field of social emotional learning, anti bullying, and creating a more empathy based world. Mickey brings over 30 years of experience teaching life skills and conflict resolution skills to young people and adults. More importantly, perhaps, Mickey is a gatherer, a storyteller, a leader, and a community builder. She's a fellow for the Dalai Lama's Center for Ethics and transformative values at MIT. And in 2000, she co founded an extraordinary organizations soul shop that I know we're going to talk about because the world needs soul shop. Welcome, Vicki.

vicki abadesco!:

Thank you. Great to be here. Thanks for the invitation.

Achim Nowak:

Oh, I'm so happy to to just record this conversation with you. Before we get to soul sharp and all the amazing work you do. I'm always curious when you were a young girl teenager growing up, and you're a fillip, Filipina, but American one Filipina in the largest San Francisco area, what did you think you wanted to be when you grew up?

vicki abadesco!:

Thanks for asking this question. I was thinking about this. And you know, oftentimes, for me growing up with my parents being immigrants, that struggle was so real and so challenging for them. And I don't know if they thought that it was challenging for them. They were just living their lives and making the best for their family. And it was a struggle. And it was a struggle for us as their children. And oftentimes, I felt the survival mode was always in motion. And so when you're faced with discrimination, and racism and hatred, from different folks in our community, it was challenging to be inside of that. And so when survival mode is present, you're present to that. So for a long time, there was no dream of what I wanted to be. Because what was so important at the time was what was in front of me at the moment. So often, when I actually started to get a little older, we had, there was some gang violence in our neighborhood, and in our community, and I started to watch Friends I was going to school with get shot or stabbed, was starting to attend funerals. So I really wondered if I actually had a future. And many of the people I went to school with didn't think about future. When I started to see my older siblings go to college. Then I thought, oh, maybe there is something possible. I was that kid that everyone went to like he had a problem if you wanted someone to listen you like I was that kid. So then, of course, right then it's like, oh, well, what does a kid like that go to school for my therapist by a social worker. Again, just as a kid, I was creative and I could feel like I had like this kind of entrepreneurial spirit that would seep through some places. You know, like I would cut out coupons in the Sunday, you know, newspaper, and I would try to sell those coupons. Like it were five cents. I'll sell it to you for three like I didn't understand how they worked. And so I can see See these glimpses of who I was. But as a kid, I didn't have big dreams, I was really more of like, oh, this is who I am, I'm gonna just survive it the best that I can. And then went to college and got a degree in psychology and ended up in a high school where I was hanging out with some young people, helping them get through it as well.

Achim Nowak:

So when it came time to get the psychology degree, I'm curious, did you pick it? Or did all sorts of friends say, Hey, you are we love talking to you, Vicki, you would be good at that? Or how did that crystallized in your mind?

vicki abadesco!:

I think a bunch of different things. I think it was, it seemed the easiest match for me, when I looked at the big list of things. Could I get a degree in like, I don't think that's me. I don't think the math degrees man, I don't think the science degree, which one feels the easiest for me to be able to accomplish. And that seemed the easiest. I also had a really good friend. And she was getting she was clear, she was getting a psychology degree. So I'm like, I'm just gonna follow you and do that thing. So again, I could feel how so much of my youth wasn't shaped in that way. I didn't know. And super grateful for trusting the path. And of course, in hindsight, hitting like, Oh, of course, that makes sense. I'm glad I went that way. I'm glad that I had a friend, that college was an option for me, it wasn't for many of my peers. So grateful that that moved in that particular kind of way.

Achim Nowak:

Or you use that phrase, I ended up in a high school, which again, made it sound like okay, I didn't really know that I want to be in high school. But that's sort of how it worked out. And so I'm curious, what were you doing at that high school? And what did you learn about yourself, and the work you wanted to do by being in that high school?

vicki abadesco!:

Yeah, growing up, I had a mom that was alcoholic. And every time I Dad attempted to fix that problem, he would send her to the doctor, the doctor would give her some prescribe medications. And now you have this prescription medication mixed with alcohol, which is not a very good mix. So created a lot of her erratic and violent behavior. And even in those moments, I had a lot of empathy for her. I was very scared also. So let's not the fear was there. And also there was this other side of caring compassion that I'm not quite sure really where it came from. But sometimes when she would be raging, I was the person as the youngest person in the family that was able to talk her down. So there was parts where I was also scared, but also could extend some care. So I was building a skill there, of empathy. And being a peacemaker, of being able to share compassion, even in the midst of something violent, and challenging. So when you take that experience of that, and the little girl that lived that life, and now I'm in a high school, where I'm a violence prevention specialist, and a gang prevention specialist, we have these kids that are raging, we have these kids who are angry for very good reasons. And they're also violent. And so here, I have this very soothing voice, calming presence, that can see through the violence, see through all of that pain, and I want to get somewhere other than that behavior. Right. And that's the moment for me that I like, oh, I have a little lot of wounds inside of this space. And, oh, here's my gift, here's a place a way to transform that pain, to be able to bring some healing and transformation for someone else. And so when I got dropped into that school, high school, I'm like, Oh, these are some of my skills. And this is what's easy. These are gifts that I have, and how do I make the best use of them to help someone else? And there are a lot of ways I couldn't help my mom and as a kid, it wasn't appropriate, right? She was the adult I was a child and and and so here, I am now an adult working with young people. And how can I will model some healthier behavior? How can I give them some choices that maybe I didn't really have as a kid?

Achim Nowak:

What I'm curious about i You may know this about me, but you know, I'm, I was trained as a mediator at the Brooklyn courts, by lawyers in the early 90s When mediation was very hot, you know, and I spent two years in every borough of Manhattan teaching young people how to become mediators. But the point of that is, is we it's about peacefully resolving conflict, but it was also teaching them very specific skill sets. And, and I being empathetic is, to me, it's like a core way of being. And it's a skill, of course. But I know you've taught other skills too. I want to say put empathy into action, right? What other skills? Did you have a chance to start developing or teaching?

vicki abadesco!:

I appreciate you sharing that. And I think that, you know, even in that situation, in that particular high school, I started to pull up me and put the pieces together. Alright, so there's a skill that I have in my being. And so then there's what do I need to learn? A, like how to put them together? Oh, here's how we we teach empathy, right? So we can role model it, and people can see that and feel that in our presence and how we interact with them. And then there's another place, you know, you were learning those mediation skills, there was a way that I was trying to teach these young people a particular kind of skill, right? How do you use your words? How do you communicate something? So when we get fired up? And so what's that mean? In your body? Oh, my belly gets hot, it runs all the way to my face, I now don't have control of my body. And now I'm hitting someone. Ah, okay, so can we slow that down? Right. So my own skills where I'm getting like, oh, active listening, oh, here are frames of how to communicate in particular kinds of situations, right, so pieces start to come together, right, and then learning starts to happen. And then when that learning can connection happens, there's a level of empowerment that happens, feeling that for myself, and also seeing that in the young people like, Oh, now there's choices, my body gets hot, my face gets fired up, I want to move to hit, oh, maybe the choices to hit a pillow, maybe the choice is to talk to somebody, maybe the choice is to run around the block. There's other things that I can now do versus this only one option that I have.

Achim Nowak:

I just know from my work with youth. The moment we understand that we have choices, it's life changing, right? And so the power of the word that and many adults are victimized as well and don't realize that they have choices also. So I appreciate that very specific example of what do you call it skill or tool that you just talked about? That was awesome. All of this, and you did other things. But I in my mind, this is a prelude to you co founding with the feminine, I think Joseph savage and extraordinary organization called Soul shop. And before we even talk about what soul shop is, you know, I met you so accidentally at an event in San Francisco years ago, and we just started chatting. But the word soul shop is just friggin irresistible, you know. So, before we talk about soul shop, for our listeners, I think I'm talking to a person who you can probably know, early on, tapped into a deep purpose and then kept expanding how she is of service with that purpose. But when the soul shop, how did you come up with soul shop? What does soul shop mean to you just the name is so cool.

vicki abadesco!:

When I had so there, I was in this high school working with these young people. And you know, I've been in education for 37 years or so. And there was a heart there's a soul to think what the educational system was, in my mind meant to be or maybe the possibility of it doesn't really reflect that in the reality of of what it is today. And but there's a heart there. And to me, that heart or soul is really there's a joy of our learning, that gets missed. And so we know what we're talking about. There's right we get something about ourselves, right? When transformation occurs, or even the notice that I can do something different, I have a different choice. And I think we grow up so much, believing that we don't have that. And so that we stay in a victim mentality that leaves us empowered. So when we things say things like oh, that's just the way I am. I mean, there's some things that are truths great to know who we are. And if we sit in a place like there isn't another choice and there isn't any power there. So when I think about learning when I think about true education It is about transformation and a true joy of that. And that's what I want it. It's like a wanted to bring that a level of joy of liberation of understanding ourselves, and the freedom that's there inside of our choices.

Achim Nowak:

Everything you just said my mind that relates to soul. The word but I want to talk about the word shop and shop you spelled P P e is like shop BP, which I think is totally cool. But why shop? Why did shop? Academy it could have been the soul playground, it could have been the soul ride, but you came up with a soul shock? Why shock?

vicki abadesco!:

Yeah, I think it's, you know, part of it again in those early years was like having a space, right having a container when I was a kid. And it may be you've seen early movies of like candy shops, they were spelled with the PPE. And so I wanted that fun, we wanted that fun kind of playful word that pinky used. At that time, we were doing K 12k College programming, not just elementary that we do now. We also, were doing a lot of adult offerings in programming. So I wanted it to be a gathering space for transformation for kids, for adults for everyone. And the funny thing about you know, using the p p e to spell shop is when the kids see it, they call it shopee. Which, of course makes them fabulous. So we have a tradition with our staff is you know what, we have a staff meeting or staff gathering and we're closing it out, we have a tradition, we put all our hands in and we say soul Sharpie. And part of that is just again, it's such an honoring to our young people that we work with on a regular basis, because that's how they refer to it. But anyway, it's playful, it's a part of a container. So container of this great joyful transformation that's possible.

Achim Nowak:

A word from your sponsor, that's me, I invite you to go to the website associated with this podcast www.my, fourth active.com, you will find other equally inspiring conversation with great humans. And you will also learn more about the my fourth act mastermind groups where cool people figure out how to chart their own fourth acts. Please check it out. And now back to the conversation. always strikes me so much as you're describing it now, it really moves me as you say it, because your childhood, as you just described was a little harder. And you chose to create a container of learning that comes with more joy. And that's really beautiful. I guess that's intentional. Now because our listeners might still go like, What the hell is soul shop? If you would? What impresses me is the work you do, but also just the sheer scale and the amount of young people you have reached. And I'm gonna ask you to shamelessly brag on yourself and describe just the level of impact you've had with sold shop.

vicki abadesco!:

Yeah, so here we are, we are closing out our 21st year. And so part of the break is, you know, there I was working in this high school in San Francisco, worked in that particular school district for 13 years. So doing a lot of work to support people to do what I was doing train them to work in other high school. So there was a great expanse throughout San Francisco, high schools and middle schools to bring these particular programs to young people and communities. And at one point, I realized, like, oh, okay, here we are working on the secondary level. So middle school, high school, and bringing these tools, right strategies, how to help them communicate, how to understand express themselves, in a way. So again, they have these choices. And then I realized, right, language development starts so much earlier. Right? So 21 years ago, I met Joseph Savage, we were working in an elementary school. It was my first elementary school. He was a master mentor, teacher, just fabulous, creative storyteller. And I'm like, huh, how do we match our skills like these great life skills for high schoolers, matching them to your fun storytelling way so that it's development leap appropriate for younger kids. So that was the start of social so of wanting to bring these tools so 20 One years later, you know, over 600,000 Young people have been touched by our work. So receive receiving peacemaking skills, bully prevention strategies, tools for forgiveness, ways to express themselves in a way that doesn't hurt or harm themselves or other people. By allowing them to understand their feelings, so they can clearly express their needs. And again, bringing them through storytelling through games through interactive experiences. So they don't just learn it in their head, they feel it in their body, and they see it in each other. And that's the experience, right? Like we you know, empathy is a great word. And how we best teach it is by the actual experience of it.

Achim Nowak:

I'm sort of chuckling inside because as I'm listening to you, I realize every single adult I know needs those skills to write. So the list is just we all these are. It's a cliche, but these are true life skills. If we want to have a richer, more connected, the Fed here says soul connected life, then these skills will help us get there, you know, and I want to again, just 600,000 is just extraordinary, because sometimes we go, does all work have impact, but that matters. We'll talk some more about the work but I immediately go You said 21 years, as somebody who has also started organizations. I like to take us to two extremes, there are moments where you go, this is amazing. This is why I do this work. And I know this monitor, would you go Why the hell am I doing this? This is too friggin hard. Can you give us maybe a story or an example for each so so we get a sense of the two things that you navigate as a co founder?

vicki abadesco!:

Yeah, there's many stories I can share. I will share this. We had a call from a father parent, after one of our programs. And so again, we go into these elementary schools, we give these workshops, the kids share their feelings, they gain these tools. And our hope is they go home and they share them with their families. So we get a call from a father. And he says, Hey, I just I want to say thank you. I have a third grader and I have a kindergartener both go to the school and they both had this experience of soul shop and they taught me about my feelings. And so I was standing there and I was yelling at my kindergartener to, you know, the usual things I yelled, my kids for, tell him to pick up his room, blah, blah, blah, yelling, yelling, yelling, and the third grader asks the dad, hey, do you have some feelings in your blooms that we use the balloon as a metaphor for putting our feelings we don't know what to do with? And the dad's like, What are you talking about with this balloon? It's emotional balloon, right? And so the kid has third grader shares? Oh, when we Yeah, when we have big feelings, we don't know what to do. You know, let's like that means we have some feelings in our balloon, our balloons fall. And then the dad said, he took a breath. He listened to his third grader. And he stopped yelling. And so he said to me, he said, Thank you for teaching my kids. Because I may never yell at my kids ever again. Beautiful. And I love that story. Because it's one of those things like even now I'm moved by just telling it because what it's now possible for that family, what's possible for those kids to now have a shift of oh, maybe I know, maybe I don't know, maybe that's another choice. Maybe I don't have to yell. That is what were helpful for me. Because that's no fun. And we know it's also no fun for kids to receive that. So that's one of the beauties and I get, you know, we heard lots of those stories. Sure. So it's beautiful when I hear it make its way back home. And something again, changes for that entire family. There's that story. And then the flip side is you're running a nonprofit, there's always stories of funding and things that happen and ways that we want to respond to the needs of schools, but then the resources aren't there. So we've watched a lot of our colleagues and friends fellow organizations, not make it through the last couple of years, financially, too hard, too challenging. You know, our team is under a lot And so how to continue going. And, again, finding funding, being ecstatic when the funding comes through being upset when it doesn't. And so those are the moments that I find to be the most challenging. And as you said, right, everybody, we all need these skills, and we all want to be met, we all need empathy and care. And we need to make really both receiving it, of it and the building of those skills. And it's such a challenge to find that it's difficult to find funding for us to have those kinds of skills that enliven our lives.

Achim Nowak:

Do you? I ask this question from my knowledge of other organizations. Where my sense was, they would create programs that could be funded, even though they were not necessarily fully aligned with the core mission. So you're almost missing your bastardize, the work you want to do. Because if you say it in the purest form, it's harder to get the funding. And you create something that sounds educationally good, and you'll get money for you feel like you have to navigate that gray area at all.

vicki abadesco!:

Yeah, absolutely. Right. In our years, we've done the same kind of work, right. And so then we have these trends that move through our world. And so when I started this work, there was life skills. And so there was funding for life skills, then character education was a big thing. And so we got to shift to say, our character education, I think, you know, we're in alignment with all of those things. Bully Prevention, bullying work was, you know, 10 years ago was really hot. There was a couple of movies that came out when another one recently came out. So we tend to use these terms without though I think that are in alignment with us that if I had my choice about I would call as I yeah, we're, you know, we're all about creating happy kids and happy schools. Who wants to fund that? It's difficult because the positive outcomes have what we want, which is again, right building empathy have, those are not going to be they're not fundable things and people want to know the pain. You know, what am I solving? What am I putting my money towards? Oh, great. It's the how painful can we make the work sound. And I'm grateful that our work, that we continue to stay in alignment, and we find people foundations that are in alignment with us, we've walked away from so many that we didn't feel were once in alignment, and I just have to trust, right, and then just keep trusting this could be our last year that we move into, we could go another 20 years, regardless of what happens. The legacy is their legacy is there. And I grateful for that.

Achim Nowak:

I mean, the world, of course, is screaming, like literally screaming for the work you do at soul shop when I think of Uvalde you know, buffalo, yeah, war in Ukraine. To the people that give you money, understand this context and understand the world really needs and when to use them on proposal language needs young future leaders who know how to be empathetic, who know how to forgive, who don't bully, who know how to build genuine relationships, whether communicate authentically, to the people get that the world needs more soul shop right

vicki abadesco!:

now. Bye, think so. I think for us, I think our donor base really understands our work, which is one of the reasons they give, I think our larger like foundations that we're you go through this big array process for writing proposals and trying to make yourself sound good. There's probably 500 other organizations that want that $20,000 and need it desperately. I think they're in they're in a tough position. I think there are people who definitely understand and want more of this. And when we are in a world that has so much need, I also can't every organization that standing next to me also is so deserving of that money. It's a challenge because again, there's a mentality, you know, we don't want to, you know, be competitive, but yet you are in a competitive race. I really do my best to keep living inside of the skills that I teach.

Achim Nowak:

I was totally just thinking that it's you at times, right. 21 years is just an incredible ride. And I just keep thinking, and this isn't again in the spirit of our listeners. How do you continue to nurture yourself? How do you You continue to take care of Vicki. So, you know, the hardships or the burdens don't take over or not for long periods of time, like, how do you stay fresh and motivated for yourself?

vicki abadesco!:

It goes in waves, like any of us, right is we're just living our lives, there's just places where times, perhaps in our lives, and maybe throughout our own cycles, whether that's through the months through the year through years, decades, that we just have cycles, this particular cycle that I am in right now is, I'm so grateful for it, because I feel my joy, my internal joy, probably more than I ever have in my life. And my relationship to my joy is a priority for me. I know that if this work was no longer joyful for me, then I know that I could walk away, and I would walk away. And I would have all the support to be able to walk away. And I love innovation. I love programming. And I love thinking about how we can create more fun, interactive experiences for the people we serve and the young people we work with. And so that's fun. That is fun for me. And so it's a balance, right? Like all of it. It's like, oh, the heavy lift of trying to figure out funding, how do we stay sustainable? How do we give our team raises, all of those things are always there. But what's also there is opportunities for fun and joy. And I want to keep that balance. And for a lot of years of my life, the joy and fun scale was so not a priority. It wasn't even seen. I couldn't even see where it was. And so to have it at the forefront, just says so much about how much I have transformed. And I know that the more I can just like role modeling, empathy, and all of those fabulous skills, role modeling joy and fun is also important. And I see how that also serves people, my team, the people in my life, how that enlivens the work we do with young people. That's where it is for me. And that's how I'm keeping that's what keeps me going.

Achim Nowak:

So appreciate the phrase, my my, I have a relationship with joy. And to use your language, Joy is a choice, right? And it's also another choice and about. We can learn how to choose more joy, which I get a sense you are doing. If you had to give us a taste of maybe what are one or two things that bring you joy outside of your work. What brings you joy,

vicki abadesco!:

I love nature. I was this last weekend was at a camp out no internet, no Wi Fi just totally disconnected. And a couple of early mornings before anybody else was up, I pull the show off of my tent. And I was nestled under some incredible redwoods and is to be there just like on the ground on my nice cushion. Now nice Christian, my sleeping bit I was so cozy and just to be right in nature and feel the abundance of the giving of those trees and the quiet and birds and the distance and the stillness, super nourishing, super nurturing. Is that a big smile on my face from those moments of like, this is my life. This is my life. It's great. It's so good. So that is definitely one of the ways

Achim Nowak:

what a beautiful example. Just want to test this one with you. Especially when somebody like you has been identified with an organization and mission and purpose for a while and you've grown it into something extraordinary. I always wonder other if you were very very honest with yourself other other things Vicki would still like to do that she hasn't done where you go if I had the time. I like to do this if circumstances were right. Anything else?

vicki abadesco!:

Yeah, that's a great question. I think about sometimes people ask, Oh, if you weren't doing this, what would you be doing? And I think the older I get, I there's a way that just like as I was sharing about who I was as a little person, there's an essence of who I am. I think who we are that carries throughout our lifetime. And so if I chose I mean it's not a dream of mine to be a plumber, but if I chose like if tomorrow I was a plumber. I will tell you what kind of plumber, I would be, I'd be the kind of plumber that walked into homes, connect with people. And possibly maybe more often than not, I'd be talking to those people, there might be some connection happening. There'd be empathy occurring, because it's just who I am. And I can't escape that. So my, my job now is, is how do I uplift that part of myself? How do I expand that part of myself? How do I have that part of me just be a part of everything I do, which, by the way, it is because it cannot not be. Alright, so when I think about other things, and I think, Oh, what are things? Okay, if I were to move outside of the soul shop or even inside a soul shop, how do I bring that forward? More? Right? I think about these fun, like, interactive kind of empathy, carnivals, right, where every activity is a fun way to connect with yourself or other people. It's a road show,

Achim Nowak:

you make me laugh, because I see how everything is connected to these core things. And you express it so beautifully. I'd love for you to contemplate this question, which I like to ask every guest, because you described how your childhood was different. If based on what you knew, now, you had a chance to share a few words of wisdom with young Vicky or not to rewrite her life, but also for other girls like young Vicki, who may feel as you did them. What would you want? What would you want them to know?

vicki abadesco!:

Ah, I would say to them and myself. Yeah, it's okay. When it gets hard. Right? It's okay. When it gets hard, and you have what it takes to do whatever you want to do. And that there are options, there are choices, it's not always going to be hard. And there are adults, there are people find them, who can help you. Right, who will listen to you, who will share and reflect back your brilliance. That's what I would say, just seek them out, and they will find you. I didn't take the risk. Take the risk.

Achim Nowak:

Thank you for that biggie. As we wrap up, I want to give you a chance to let our listeners know where they can go to learn more about soul shop or I know you're also very open to being financially supported. So anybody wants to give you some money? Take it. Where would folks learn more about soul shop and the amazing work you guys you

vicki abadesco!:

can learn more about us and our website, soul shop.org which is S O UL s h o p p e.org. It's all sharpie.org. And yes, there's a Donate button there. There's ways to reach out to us. If you'd like us to come to schools in your area. Ie my email is there. So please reach out. Ask questions. Again. Reach out for any opportunities to support as well.

Achim Nowak:

Wonderful and I just just to come wrap it up. As you know you're based in Oakland, California. I live in Hollywood, Florida, just outside of Miami Dade. And I was just ecstatic to find out that Miami Dade County brought in soul shop and you just did some amazing work. So you are you're willing to travel and go you're not on your

38:40

island at a place. You're not confined

Achim Nowak:

to California. Thank you so much for the gift of you the gift of your work and the gift of soul shop. I'm so glad you exist. Thank you.

vicki abadesco!:

You're welcome. Thanks for having me and allowing me some space to share with you.

Achim Nowak:

You bet we'd like what you heard, please go to my fourth act.com And subscribe to receive my updates on upcoming episodes. Please also subscribe to us on the platform of your choice. Rate us give us a review and let us all create some magical fourth acts together. Ciao