Today on The Rough Draft, we're joined by Claire McInerny, a former journalist turned podcast producer. Her podcasting repertoire includes the award winning Terrible, Thanks for Asking and It’s Going to Be Ok. She’s the co-creator and producer of Refamulating, a new podcast that celebrates all the different ways to make a family. Prior to podcasting, Claire was a higher education reporter for NPR member stations across Indiana and Texas.  Today we discuss navigating career transition and the podcasting landscape, an industry that’s by all accounts still in its infancy, how to create compelling narratives for audio, and the tools and tactics she relies on the most to find inspiration and creativity. 

Guest Bio

Claire McInerny is a podcast producer and writer. She’s a former producer on the award winning podcast “Terrible, Thanks for Asking,” and also produces “It’s Going To Be Okay,” a daily meditation on the okay things in the world. 

Claire is the co-creator and producer of Refamulating, a new podcast that celebrates different ways to make a family. 

Before podcasting, Claire was a reporter for NPR stations, telling stories about public education and worked for NPR member stations for about 10 years. 

Claire also produces audio projects for non-profits, companies and other commercial outlets. 

Additional Resources

• clairemcinerny.com
• refamulating.com
• Refamulating on Spotify
• Refamulating on Apple
• Terrible, Thanks For Asking
• It’s Going to Be Okay
• Claire’s Instagram
• Claire’s LinkedIn

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- Which I guess is a pun because-

- I was about to say it.

You said it and I was

like, that's a great pun.

- That's such a good question

'cause I feel that was

one of the big dances

her and I did at first.

- You have a pandemic, you have elections,

you have wars.

- Because you think too much.

You're thinking too much

if you're trying to craft

an email or craft a text.

- And is that common?

- It's so common.

- But how do you start that process,

creating something so unique?

- I was like, you got me there.

- I'm Kendell Kelton,

and today I'm your host

on "The Rough Draft".

In this episode, I sit

down with Claire McInerney,

a former journalist

turned podcast producer.

Her podcasting credits

include the award-winning

"Terrible, Thanks for Asking"

and "It's Going to Be OK".

She's the co-creator and

producer of "Refamulating",

a new podcast that celebrates

all the different ways to make a family.

And prior to podcasting,

Claire was a higher education reporter

for NPR member stations

across Indiana and Texas.

And today we discuss

navigating career transitions

and the podcasting landscape,

an industry that's by all

accounts still in its infancy,

how to create compelling

narratives for audio and the tools

and tactics she relies on the most

to find inspiration and creativity.

All right, here's my

conversation with Claire.

(bright music)

You just transitioned over the last couple

of years from a career in journalism

to a career in podcasting.

And it came at such a

kind of wild intersection

of what's going on in the world.

You have a pandemic, you have

elections, you have wars,

you have all sorts of

crazy things happening.

So I want to hear a little

bit about why you decided

to make that jump.

- Yeah, going into podcasting

was step two, I would say.

And step one was realizing I wanted

to leave the career I

was in, which was news,

and I was working in public radio,

so I had an audio background,

but I was a reporter.

So I was writing for online platforms

and then making radio stories

about the news I was covering.

I covered a hurricane

once when I was in Texas.

I covered the bombings

that happened in Austin.

Talking to people who lost

people in that violence.

And I wasn't a war reporter or anything,

but those stories I feel

were enough to make me start

to realize like, oh, this really

takes a toll on my spirit.

And I looked around and

other reporters like that.

They are energized by those moments

because it allows them...

It's important.

And I just realized I had

a different temperament.

And then COVID started

and it was all of those

feelings on steroids

because the second it started,

we were in breaking

news mode for six weeks.

And I would say that was the first time

I felt burned out was in 2020.

And just 'cause also I was a person

going through the pandemic.

I was stuck at home. I

couldn't see my family.

I couldn't see my friends.

And then what I was doing

all day was listening to

how other people were struggling with it.

How teachers and students and all of that.

So at the end of that year,

I knew I needed a change.

And so I decided I'm

gonna try and freelance.

I'm gonna go into podcasting

because I had some honest

conversations with myself about

what do I like about my job as a reporter.

I like talking to others.

I like telling stories.

I like learning about the world around me.

And I realized I can transition

if I get some opportunities.

And so freelancing was the way

to kind of take a small

job, take a small job,

and eventually get the

experience I needed.

- So let's talk then a little

bit about that approach

because a lot of people

just think, "Oh, podcast,

it's easy."

You grab a mic, you can just do it.

But that's not how it goes. Spoiler alert.

It's not.

So how did you in particular

kind of approach those small kind of gigs

that led to kind of a larger opportunity?

- Yeah, one of the first gigs

I got was a reporting gig.

And I remember thinking I don't

wanna report anymore though,

but that's what my experience was in.

So it was for a journalism podcast.

So I did this...

I wanna say it was maybe 40-minute story.

And I reported it and got all the tape.

And that was good because

I knew how to report

and I knew how to take interviews

and pick tape and all of that stuff.

I just needed to figure out how

to do it on a bigger scale with more time.

And so that was one of my first projects.

I worked for a studio

that does a lot of educational podcasts.

Again, they hired me for

my journalism background,

bring these writing skills,

these research skills,

these fact checking skills to

these educational podcasts.

And that helped me learn

the format, how to scale,

how to do something

longer, pacing, you know?

In journalism, the rule of thumb for me

in public radio was a clip from a guest,

a clip from someone I interviewed

should never exceed 20 seconds

'cause you have a four-minute story.

But in podcasting, it can be two minutes.

So I just kind of learned those things

through those first couple jobs.

And I do think my experience

as a public radio

reporter got me those jobs

because I couldn't necessarily say,

here's a podcast I've produced.

But in my time in public radio,

I did a documentary one year.

I worked on some longer form projects

with "The Newsroom" so

I wasn't totally new.

And I think those kind of

educational podcasts helped me

cut my teeth a little bit in

the format in that first year.

- You just released a new

podcast a few weeks ago.

And we'll get into that

a little bit later.

But I wanna point out, I

was listening to the episode

that launched this week of "Refamulating",

and I notice in

specific parts where you're wanting

to elicit a certain emotion,

you'll have a backdrop

of music, excuse me.

There's a very intentional pause.

And those are the things

that I don't think people

really realize make a podcast

so special sometimes,

are those little tiny things

that are happening in the

background that somebody like

yourself who's in a producer

seat for the most part,

sometimes you host,

but for the most part

you're in the producer seat,

you have to think about.

- Yeah, when we do interviews,

a big role of mine is the host

is leading the conversation

like you are now, has the questions,

and then my video is off

and I am making notes of,

oh, that's a good anecdote,

but they're missing some

details like we all do

when we tell stories.

Making notes of like, we're

gonna come back to that

and that very specific questions.

When you woke up that

day, how were you feeling?

Okay, then the thing happened, you know?

So we can build out scenes

and narratives around events.

That's what I'm listening for.

And you're right, they're very subtle.

Or saying a music cue should go here

or this anecdote would work well

as a cold open at the beginning

because we don't need a ton of context,

but it sets the tone.

All of those things are choices

that a producer makes that

do have a big impact, yeah.

- So I think there's

a lot of conversations

around monetization and how do

you make podcasts successful

and there's different versions

of success that everyone has.

But as I'm scrolling through

my Instagram feed or wherever,

I'm noticing things like

influencers are now jumping

on the podcast game

or I'm seeing pretty high placement

for celebrities like the Dax Shepherds

or the Jason Batemans of the world

and their podcast on Spotify.

So what is it like kind

of navigating that,

especially being part of

more of an independent shop

and an independent producer that may

have kind of a different hill to climb

in order to gain what many people may see

as typical success for a podcast.

- Totally.

And I'll start my answer

by saying the podcast

industry is still so new.

I'm only 33 years old.

I've only been a professional

for 11 years, 12 years.

And in that time, it's changed so much.

- Yeah.

- If you compare it to the film industry,

the TV industry, they have

decades under their belt.

So podcasting is still figuring

out its business model.

So we saw when the medium

was becoming really big

five to 10 years ago,

networks or radio stations started saying

we wanna produce podcasts.

And they would give these

massive deals to people.

Like here's a bunch of cash up front.

And the metrics we used were different

on the backend.

That's all shifted.

And one of the things we've

learned in the last year,

a lot of podcasters, is that the ad model

was the main way people

were making money, you know?

Oh, we could say 100,000 people listen

to our episode so that's gonna translate

to X amount this deal with

HelloFresh or whatever.

The more listeners, the more

money they're gonna give you.

- By the way, HelloFresh and BetterHelp

are all over my ads, every-

- And they haven't left.

- They haven't left. They're still there.

They've been there for a while.

- The mattresses came and went,

but HelloFresh and BetterHelp are still

in every Midroll break.

- There you go.

- But now the platforms

like Apple Podcasts,

which is the main one,

most people still listen

on Apple Podcasts,

has changed their metrics

and it's very hard to get data now.

And so we are left with this

one number, which is downloads.

How often do you download a podcast?

- Yeah.

- When you go on a

flight or on a road trip,

most people aren't downloading

just to listen at home,

you're hitting play.

So it's an imperfect metric,

but that's what we have now.

And so when Apple podcasts changed that,

the monetization changed,

brands were like, well,

it doesn't look like

there's as many people

or we're gonna be a little more frugal

'cause we're in a recession.

Just the market changed.

And so when I started my podcast

with my partner six months ago,

we actually had two incredible

opportunities in front of us.

We had Feelings & Co,

the small independent network

that I had been doing some

work for as a producer.

So I had a relationship with

them. They were interested.

We also talked to a very big

network that everybody knows.

And it was very interesting

to see the things they

both put on the table.

So the big network, they

didn't offer us a deal,

we just had some meetings,

but it was interesting to get more info.

And the deal would've been

something like they would take

50% of any ads we sold.

They would take 50% of

any live show revenue

if we ever did that.

They would take 50% of any merch we sold.

And they would have control over the-

- 50% seems like a lot. Is that a lot?

- It's a ton. It's so much.

- It feels like a lot.

- It's a lot. That's a lot.

- It's so much.

- And is that common?

- It's so common.

- Interesting.

- So, and they would own the

IP, the intellectual property.

And so that was the thing that

kind of threw us being like,

they would put us in

front of a lot of people.

They would use their other big shows

to promote us if they gave us a deal.

Which again, they didn't.

But we just started to think

how seriously do I wanna take this?

Feelings & Co gave us

a very different deal

because they wanna use their platform

and their network to just lift up

other independent creators, not get rich.

And so the profit share

is a fraction of that.

They let us do editorially

whatever we want

and we have contracts,

but whenever we walk away,

if we choose to do that,

we retain the intellectual property.

Because what could happen

at a bigger network

if they own your IP, is

the show could blow up.

People could love it,

but if they don't get along with a host,

they could fire the host one day

and say we're gonna bring

someone else in to host the show

that we conceived of.

So for us, we chose to

go the independent route

because it didn't mean as much money

or exposure upfront,

but it meant we could

control the process forever.

And so we're in a moment now

of like, okay, our show is out,

it's called "Refamulating".

It's narrative storytelling

about different ways people are

making a family and we're

taking it upon ourselves to try

and build the audience,

get a loyal group of listeners because...

And you probably see

this all the time too,

the way independent creators,

whether it's podcasting or

other video or anything,

the way to make money now

is through a subscription network.

And not that it's a ton of money,

but the Patreons, the Substacks

of the world allow you

to create whatever you wanna

create without the red tape

of big companies

and the people who like your

stuff just directly support it.

It's like the public radio model

that existed for a million years.

And so that's what I think a lot

of independent people

are trying to rely on.

I'm gonna make a product

that people are very loyal to

and feel so connected

to that they're willing

to give $5 a month.

And I think that's where shows like ours

that have a very niche focus

and aren't just two influencers

chatting could thrive

is 'cause we're trying to tap into

a specific audience.

- Yeah.

Well, this is actually a

great transition into the idea

of defining the story.

And so maybe you can talk

to me a bit about "Refamulating".

I think it's a really interesting topic.

Y'all have an interesting name for a show

that y'all actually made up, which I love.

But how do you start that process?

Creating something so

unique and so specific?

- Yeah.

My partner, Julia Winston, who's the host,

conceived of the idea, which

I guess is a pun because-

- I was about to say it.

You said it and I was like,

that's a great pun for those who are about

to learn what "Refamulating" is.

- Because when she was 37, 38,

a gay couple she was

friendly with asked her

to donate her eggs so they could have kids

and she said yes and did it.

And they had twins this year.

- Oh wow.

- Yeah, and she became what

they call a fairy godmother.

She's a known egg donor

and she's going to be in

their life as a friend.

And it was just such a

spiritual experience for her.

She talks about it.

She doesn't have children of

her own. She's not married.

She had a lot of feelings

around those two realities.

And she said it took a

pressure valve off of her.

She helped someone else start a family.

So she was writing a lot

about this, recording a lot.

She had all these voice memos

when she was doing the egg

retrievals and hormonal and stuff.

And she realized I wanna make a podcast

because I wanna talk to

other people who have been

through this kind of experience

'cause no one in her life was

an egg donor, a sperm donor.

She felt she didn't have

other people to talk to.

And so she came up with the idea,

but she doesn't have a

podcasting background.

She doesn't work in media.

And so we got connected because

I had just gone freelance.

And so we worked together

to create the show,

create the name like you said.

After a while it was like,

I feel like semantics became a huge theme

we talked about a lot.

There's not a lot of words

for people in your life

outside of mom, dad,

aunt, uncle, friend.

And I was like...

We decided, I think we

need to make a new word.

Even though many people have gone

through this experience, we

don't have a name for it.

We came up with that.

We talked about format for a while.

Do we just wanna do it as an interview?

At the time I was working

on a very narrative

storytelling based show

and saw how it can

make the audience feel much closer

to the story and topic and

build a lot of empathy.

And we decided, even

though it's more work,

we'd rather go with that format

to really get to know a family.

And so that's why we're hoping

to build community through this

'cause we've already

heard from many people

who are like, "Oh my God,

I feel like you're telling

my family story.

This is very, very helpful

to not just feel like we failed at it."

You know?

- Right.

- So yeah, that's kind of our

goal is to build community,

and that was always our goal.

And so when we talk

about monetizing one day,

it is centered around

building a community of people

who are either in this position

or wanna learn more about these topics

versus a live show

where we're entertaining and stuff

'cause that's not our goal.

So those were some of the

big picture conversations

we had as we got started.

- Well, and I love the premise of the show

because I think family

dynamics are so different.

- Yeah.

- And podcasts are a great way to connect

and build community.

So the host, Julia,

and you've collaborated with other hosts

on other podcasts before,

but how do you take

something that's so special

and so uniquely them

and capturing their voice

and their perspective,

but also ensuring that

your own kind of approach

to storytelling is

represented in your work?

- That's such a good question

'cause I feel like that

was one of the big dances

her and I did at first.

So the first two episodes

in the show are about her

experience and then we move

on and we talked to guests

and other people,

but we kind of wanted to

establish why she's the host,

why she is passionate about this.

And like I said, she's not a writer

or a professional storyteller or anything.

And so when I did those

interviews with her

and had all that tape,

I took the first pass

at writing these scripts

and telling her story and

which was very intimidating

because there were conversations

where there were times she was like,

"But you keep forgetting

to put in this one detail."

And I finally had to be like,

I know it was very

important when you lived it,

but it's a little bit of a

distraction in the story.

We had to have some of those conversations

of this is why I keep cutting

this whole anecdote about X

because it's kind of a pivot

and I know it was really important to you,

'cause she's so emotionally tied to it.

And I think once she heard the full thing

and we've done scripts

together, now she understands.

But that first episode we

worked on was her story.

And so it took so much longer

because one, we were just figuring out

our workflow together.

But it was also we wanted to get it right.

She wanted to feel right about it.

I wanted to feel right about it.

And the thing I had to tell myself

was just listen to her constantly,

hear how she talks.

Because if I send her a Google doc,

like most of us, when

you look at a bank page,

the way you write might

not be how you speak.

And often what I'll do

is we'll be on a call

and I'll be like, you don't even look

at the script right now.

Just start talking to

me and I'm taking notes.

Or with Julia, I'll often

send her text messages

and be like, can you send me a voice memo

where you answer all these questions later

and then I can write a scene

or give her the draft of

the opening of an episode.

And that way I can use

exact phrases she uses

or words that she would use,

and then she can later truly

make it sound like her voice.

But I give her a really

good starting place

because I've learned a blank

page is the most intimidating

thing for other people.

So if I can give her

something to start with,

with the narration that sounds like her,

she's just making smaller tweaks

and I found that works really well,

the voice memos especially

because I can actually hear

where she's getting excited

or how she is phrasing

it or things like that.

- Yeah, where otherwise

you wouldn't quite get

that if she just wrote it back

to you in a text message.

- Yes.

- I love that idea.

- Because you think too much,

you're thinking too much

if you're trying to craft

an email or craft a text.

- Oh my, I love that.

And these are the things

that people don't realize

that are going into the producer's

role of like, I hear you.

Yes, I want to make sure

that your story comes through

and I have to think

about the bigger picture

and what we're trying to achieve here.

And how do we pull other

people into this story as well.

I have to wonder if some of your...

Going back to your

higher ed reporting days,

if you're seeing a lot of

those dynamics taking place

and pulling that into

your storytelling as well.

- Yeah, I mean, as a reporter

you're observing a lot.

You're not talking.

I would sit in rooms

and be recording or I'd be

sitting in rooms observing,

waiting to go talk to someone after.

And so it definitely set me

up for that of how am I...

I'm always thinking about the big picture

while also noticing details around me.

And I think that translated

very easily into podcasting.

- So then let's kind of talk about

I love the trick about the voice memo.

There's been a lot of change

just in terms of technology

in the last few years.

And I mean, even just thinking about how

to distribute a podcast,

how to measure a podcast.

There's all sorts of tools out there.

So in what ways has that

helped your storytelling capabilities

or increased your ability

to tell better stories?

- So many things.

I think one of the

biggest ones is being able

to do so much remotely.

I think in podcasting,

if we're talking about buying equipment,

it's one of the lesser expensive things

because you can get a USB mic

that plugs into your laptop

for under $200,

and a pair of headphones for $50

and then you could do

interviews all day long

and not sound you're in a cave.

I think that's opened up a lot

in terms of reaching people

because the way this used

to happen is you either

had to get your guests to a studio

or you paid a freelancer

like me to go to their house,

hold a microphone up to them

while you did an interview

with them on the phone.

And that still happens.

But I just appreciate being

able to do interviews online.

Things like voice memos,

things like headphones with a mic.

It's not the worst sound in the world.

So we can do this in an accessible way

and talk to people all over the world.

So that's a huge one.

I think...

Like I said, I haven't been in

this industry for very long,

but when I started working in

public radio 11, 12 years ago,

I hand transcribed every

single interview I did,

which was the worst.

You write a sentence,

you go back and listen,

you're like, yeah, yeah.

It took hours and hours and hours.

So now we don't have to do that.

I can just put my audio

file and it transcribes

and I can make it perfect later

once I've chosen what tape.

But that also helps with

working with hosts or producers

or companies who don't do

podcasting all the time

and hire me to work.

It's like, here I put the

tape into the platform,

now you go through and tell

me which parts you like.

And so that technology is

huge and saves so much time.

And I think also just like social media,

there's good and there's bad.

But I think social media,

the good side is it does help

people find niche content

and it helps content creators like us

find our niche audience.

But for "Refamulating",

one of the areas we decided

to spend money on when we

don't have a lot right now

is on someone to do social

media and she's making Reels

and TikToks because we're like,

we know there are so many people out here

who will connect to these episodes,

but they have to know they exist.

And so that's a way to reach strangers

and also people in our life

are spreading it word of mouth.

So I think all of these things,

there are huge, huge pros.

Especially compared to 10 years ago,

what the audio industry looked like.

It took so much longer.

- Where do you find the most

inspiration for your work?

So you've picked up a lot of

good habits along the way,

but how do you keep yourself excited

and kind of thinking a little

bit differently about how

to approach a story or

just getting jazzed?

- I think anything that is telling a story

that is using writing

or storytelling to articulate an idea,

I can find inspiration from.

But then also, I'm a huge

reality TV viewer again,

because it's so different

from what I do all day.

It feels like a break.

And I would say what surprised

me is I get a lot of ideas

from there because they're

doing the same thing.

They're taking a real,

quote, "real life moment".

People set it on a mic, it's not a script.

And they're figuring

out how to tell a story.

And so things the finale

of The Real Housewives

of Salt Lake City, if you know, you know,

they were playing with time.

They were like, it's 7:00 AM

or we started the episode,

"It's 2:00 PM and

Heather's losing her mind."

And then it was like...

And that whole kind of editing moment

of they played with

time throughout the day

to build the drama.

I was like, you got me there.

I was screaming from my couch.

- So many people were screaming.

- Versus just letting

that whole scene play out.

It would've been dramatic enough.

But the way they built it up,

I remember thinking, oh, I love that.

I love that the editors

were playing with time

and pushing us back in time

and playing with our emotions in that way.

So I think things like that, editing,

I often too, my partner and I watch

some Bravo shows together.

He'll watch "Below Deck"

with me, the yachting one,

and he'll sometimes say,

"I feel like they're being so

dramatic in their interview."

And I'm like, no.

The producer asked them a

question that said when...

They didn't say, was

this particular docking

of the yacht going to be very dangerous?

They didn't say that.

They said in general,

what are you worried about

when you're docking a yacht?

And that's why the captain

said, "We could hit the wall,

we could hit blah, blah, blah."

I was like it's all about

how they phrase the question.

So those are the things

I'll start to notice

watching that show.

And there's ethical

ways and unethical ways

to cut together someone's real life.

But that moment of, oh, we could punch up

the drama a little bit here.

This was a tense moment.

Let's make sure that comes through.

Things like that come with

taking someone's quote

and breaking it up through narration.

So the narrator's being like,

and then this happened,

you hear from the guest,

and then this, and it feels fast.

There's ways to play with

a real source material.

- Yeah.

But again, this goes back to that

kind of the backbone of these shows

really fall on a producer

and people think about the director

or they think about Heather, the star.

- The star, the face you see, yeah.

- The face you see,

but they don't really think about the glue

that's holding everything together.

But yet it feels a little

bit like a thinkless job.

And so I wonder how you kind of approach

maybe not getting the public

credit that otherwise,

whomever it may be may actually receive.

Would love to kind of hear

your feelings on that.

- I have a lot of feelings on that.

My previous career, I was

a public radio reporter

and every time I did a story,

I ended with, "For Blank Blank

News, I'm Claire McInerney."

My name was so attached

to the work I was doing

that then when I was in the

bubble of the world I covered,

people were like, "Oh,

you're a Claire McInerney.

I hear you on the radio all the time."

And that, I loved that.

I'll just be honest. I loved that.

- There you go.

- I liked being like,

I'm getting the credit

for all this work I've done.

But some producers are

people who are like,

"I never wanna be on camera on air.

Forget that I exist. I

just wanna do my thing."

And that's not me. I'm not

a shy, introverted person.

And so that can be a struggle sometimes.

And when Julie and I were talk...

When Julie and I were

launching "Refamulating"

and having initial conversations

about us being partners,

which isn't how we started,

one of the things I said was,

I enjoy talking to people.

I enjoy being on the mic.

That's not something I am adverse to.

And so as we go forward,

if there are moments where

it makes sense for me

to be included, I'd love to

at least bat that idea around.

As the producer, I'll

still make the choice of

this is gratuitous, Claire,

you don't need to be in here.

But I wanted that option.

And a big conversation her

and I had was around our titles,

but one of the things I said was,

could we call me a co-creator of the show?

And that was something that

we both sat on for a while

'cause for her it was,

this is a show based on

my personal experience,

I conceived of it.

I have to stop saying conceive.

I came up with the idea on my own

and I totally heard that too.

And I was like, for me,

this is now something I'm

not getting paid to do,

but I think it's so important

and I want it out there in the world.

I am bringing all this experience

into storytelling to it.

I don't think the show would exist in

this format without me.

You would still have a show for sure.

You would've found a different producer,

but that's why this is important to me.

And to her credit,

she came back and she was

like, "Okay, I'm down.

I'm the host and co-creator

and you're the producer and co-creator."

So it's clear what we're

both bringing to the table.

But we did both do this,

and that meant a lot to me.

So I'm not in every

episode, I'm not the host.

You hear my name at the end.

But the fact that she was willing to give

that to me meant a lot.

It just made me feel

like I have more agency

as we're trying to grow

and create something on our own.

It helped me be like,

yeah, I am an important

role in this project.

So it worked for us.

But I think being honest about that,

having that kind of title

and way to introduce myself

as we talk about this helped

me feel like I was getting

the credit from the person it mattered,

the person I was working with

as we go out in the world.

And it also gave me agency to

be like, this is my show too.

When I'm meeting someone,

I'm like, yeah, I have a

podcast, you should listen to it.

Not just that's a thing I work on.

And it helped me feel for sure

more invested in its success.

- I love it. Well, I really

appreciate you coming on.

I think this gives folks,

especially those who are

navigating podcasting

and just creating some type of content

that they wanna share with the world

a better peek into what is happening

a bit behind the scenes

and some good nuggets.

So I appreciate you coming

on and chatting with us.

I do want you to tell folks

where they can check out your work.

- Yeah, so "Refamulating"

is the big project

I am excited about right now.

And so you can find that

wherever you get podcasts.

We spell it R-E-F-A-M-U-L-A-T-I-N-G.

You can follow me on Instagram.

My handle is CMcInerney.

I feel like that's where

I spend the most time.

But then I'm also on LinkedIn

and post a lot of my projects there

and write about them there.

And yeah, those are the

main things I spend time on.

- Amazing. Well, thank you for coming on.

Really appreciate all

of your words of wisdom

that you shared, and we'll talk soon.

- This was so fun. Thanks.

- Thanks.

Well that's it for today's

episode of "The Rough Draft".

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