Artwork for podcast The Art Supplies Experts
The Truth About Art Supplies: Decoding Pigment Quality
Episode 3 • 19th July 2024 • The Art Supplies Experts • Trevor Bell
00:00:00 00:27:49

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In episode three of the Art Supplies Experts podcast, hosts Trevor and Alice dive into a detailed discussion on pigments and dyes in art supplies. They explore the differences between pigments and dyes, emphasizing the importance of lightfastness for both. The episode highlights the characteristics and quality indicators of good versus poor-quality paints, examining specific examples like Van Gogh and Winton oil paints. The hosts also address the practical implications of using dyes in marker pens and how knowledge of pigments can help differentiate between paint qualities. The episode aims to educate listeners, especially those involved in selling art supplies, and help them become experts in the field.

00:00 Introduction and Episode Setup

02:02 Podcast Goals and Audience

02:51 Understanding Pigments vs. Dyes

04:59 Lightfastness Explained

07:28 The Role of Dyes in Art Supplies

10:11 The Origin of the Podcast

13:14 Differentiating Paint Quality

22:40 Comparing Paint Brands

26:04 Conclusion and Farewell

Thanks for listening.

Don Nederhand Links:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ur5YPjlxUEk&t=211s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJz6i_YeTEA&t=469s


Donations: Support The Art Supplies Experts

Email: artexpertspodcast@gmail.com

Website: Website

References: References in PDF

The background music is "Sweet Release" by Dan Lebowitz.

Transcripts

Trevor:

Okay, just getting ready for episode three, where we're

Trevor:

going to continue our discussion about pigments in general.

Trevor:

That's probably Alice now.

Alice:

Hi Trevor, how are you?

Trevor:

Alice, I'm well.

Trevor:

I'm looking forward to this episode three, now that we've got

Trevor:

those first two under our belts.

Trevor:

I feel like we're on a bit of a roll.

Trevor:

I think the first two have been pretty good.

Trevor:

You know, with a bit of luck, it won't be long and this podcast will go viral.

Alice:

I agree.

Alice:

I mean, who doesn't like detailed technical art supplies information,

Alice:

with an emphasis on Latin origins of the terminology, sprinkled

Alice:

with historical fun facts?

Alice:

And mixed in with quotes from Star Trek and Mark Twain, and all of

Alice:

that delivered by two co hosts struggling to adjust their identities.

Trevor:

Hmm.

Trevor:

When you put it like that, maybe there is room for improvement.

Trevor:

Maybe we should use quotes from more modern celebrities.

Alice:

Some Bertrand Russell, perhaps.

Alice:

I've got a great quote about observing colour.

Trevor:

Um, I was thinking more like Taylor Swift.

Alice:

Her songs are mostly about heartbreak and lost love.

Alice:

It will be difficult to incorporate her lyrics into an art supplies podcast.

Trevor:

Sorry Alice, I thought your knowledge was encyclopedic.

Trevor:

I guess if you can't do it, you can't do it.

Alice:

Challenge accepted.

Trevor:

Oh, and next week, don't forget, we are doing ean Crimson.

Trevor:

Don't you just love the vibrant red color of Ean Crimson.

Alice:

I once believed love would be burning red, but it's golden from the

Alice:

single daylight from the album lover.

Trevor:

Remind me never to test you again, Alice.

Trevor:

Congratulations, you win today's fake audience applause.

Alice:

You play stupid games, you win stupid prizes.

Alice:

From the song Miss Americana and the Harpoot Prince.

Trevor:

Okay, okay, you've proved your point.

Trevor:

I'm going to press record and we'll get going with this episode.

Trevor:

This is a podcast where we talk about art supplies.

Trevor:

Our aim is to educate and inform and help you become an expert on art supplies.

Trevor:

If your job is to sell art supplies, then this podcast will be perfect for you.

Trevor:

Or maybe you just want to know more about art supplies, in which case

Trevor:

this podcast is still perfect for you.

Trevor:

This is the only podcast that deep dives into obscure, scientific and historical

Trevor:

fun facts relating to art supplies.

Trevor:

If that sounds good to you, then stick around.

Trevor:

And join us as we all attempt to become art supplies experts.

Trevor:

Welcome back dear listener to another episode of the art supplies experts.

Alice:

In this episode, we're going to continue our discussion about pigments,

Alice:

and we will show you how a basic knowledge of pigments will help you to differentiate

Alice:

between good and poor quality paints.

Trevor:

Some colouring materials use pigments, and some use dyes.

Trevor:

And it's really important to understand the difference.

Trevor:

You will remember that pigments are coloured particles that are

Trevor:

crushed into a powder and mixed with a liquid binder to form a paint.

Trevor:

Those powdery particles do not dissolve.

Trevor:

in the liquid mixture, but instead are dispersed or suspended in the liquid.

Alice:

In contrast, coloured substances that dissolve are called dyes.

Alice:

Dyes are not used in artist quality paints unless they have been

Alice:

attached to an insoluble particle.

Alice:

More about that in a few weeks when we talk about Matter Lake and other lakes.

Trevor:

Dyes are commonly found in coloured marker pens, such

Trevor:

as Copic pens or Tombow pens.

Trevor:

Those pens have a sponge inside and the coloured material has to move through

Trevor:

that sponge to get to the tip of the pen.

Trevor:

Because dyes dissolve completely, they can travel through the sponge

Trevor:

and without clogging it up and are therefore more ideally suited

Trevor:

for this type of application.

Trevor:

It is possible to make pigmented material that moves through a

Trevor:

marker pen, but that's not easy to do and it is relatively uncommon.

Alice:

Two examples of pigmented marker pens would be a type of watercolor pen

Alice:

made by Windsor Newton and also Pantone marker pens made by royal talents.

Trevor:

The really important thing to know about dyes is that almost

Trevor:

all of them are not light fast, which means they fade quickly.

Trevor:

In contrast, pigments are generally more light fast, although this

Trevor:

can vary between pigments.

Trevor:

Analysts, the question on everyone's lips is, well just, how different is the

Trevor:

lightfastness between dyes and pigments?

Alice:

There are two common ways of measuring lightfastness.

Alice:

One is called the ASTM scale.

Alice:

And the other is called the Blue Wool Scale.

Trevor:

The ASTM ranks the lightfastness of materials from 1

Trevor:

to roman numeral 5, and the Blue Wool rating ranks the lightfastness

Trevor:

of materials from 1 through to 8.

Trevor:

Unfortunately, just to confuse things, a rating of 1 in the Blue

Trevor:

Wool Scale is very poor, but a rating of 1 in the ASTM Scale Trevor

Alice:

in a utopian world run by computers.

Alice:

That sort of nonsensical inconsistency.

Alice:

would never happen.

Alice:

In any event, I came across a YouTube video produced by Royal Talens, which

Alice:

featured Don Getterhand explaining the lightfastness ratings used by

Alice:

Royal Talens, and in that video he explained the general differences in

Alice:

lightfastness between dyes and pigments.

Alice:

He explained that on a blue wolf scale of 1 to 8, Most dyes are in the

Alice:

range of 1 to 3, but none are above 6.

Alice:

On the other hand, pigments range from 1 to 8, but quality paint manufacturers

Alice:

would rarely use anything below a 6.

Trevor:

What that means in practice is that if you were to hang up artwork

Trevor:

in a museum and that artwork was using dyes with a ranking of 1 to 3 in the

Trevor:

blue wool scale, then that would only last a maximum of 2 to 15 years before

Trevor:

noticeable fading would become apparent.

Trevor:

And that's under the low light of museum conditions.

Trevor:

For pigments that have a rating of at least 6, then They would last in

Trevor:

museum conditions at least 50 years and possibly up to 100 years before

Trevor:

fading would become noticeable.

Alice:

We'll talk more about bite fastness testing and ratings at a later stage.

Trevor:

Alice, I would imagine that at this point, some people might be

Trevor:

thinking, boy, those dyes, they're really bad, would never use them.

Trevor:

What are they doing in an art shop anyway?

Trevor:

And I guess I just want to spend a little while defending

Trevor:

the appropriate use of dies.

Trevor:

As we've already mentioned, they're ideally suited to marker pens.

Trevor:

So if you like using marker pens, then you might be prepared to put

Trevor:

up with the lightfastness problem.

Trevor:

It also depends on what you're going to be doing with your artwork.

Trevor:

Is it going to be in a journal?

Trevor:

Is it going to be just stuck in a drawer somewhere out of the light?

Trevor:

If it's not going to be hung up on a wall, then lightfastness is not a problem.

Trevor:

Historically, many of these dye based products were not intended

Trevor:

for artwork that would be hung up on a wall and exposed to sunlight.

Trevor:

A small disclosure here, I'm involved in the selling of

Trevor:

Copic marker pens in Australia.

Trevor:

But I know from the history of Copic that it was originally designed for Coloring

Trevor:

in, Architecture Drawings, and these were plans and drawings and designs.

Trevor:

They were meant for commercial use for planners and builders and other

Trevor:

people to look at and to plan from, and they were never designed to be hung

Trevor:

up on walls and exposed to sunlight.

Trevor:

It was just that subsequently artists discovered these marker pens.

Trevor:

and decided that they were a great option for creating artwork.

Trevor:

And when that artwork was limited to anime cartoon drawing, for example,

Trevor:

that was largely kept in journals or in drawers, it didn't matter.

Trevor:

But over time, as people did further experimenting with these pens and

Trevor:

decided they wanted to create artwork to be hung up on walls, Then, the

Trevor:

lightfastness problems become an issue.

Trevor:

Many people might quite rightly decide that they love the fluorescent lollipop

Trevor:

colours that are available with dyes, that are not necessarily available

Trevor:

with pigments, and they love the transparency, and the ability to blend

Trevor:

seamlessly, and other features associated with dyes, that those characteristics

Trevor:

outweigh the problems of lightfastness.

Trevor:

for their particular circumstances.

Trevor:

So it's a case of bearing in mind always, what are people

Trevor:

actually doing with their artwork?

Trevor:

Is it intended for long term exhibition?

Trevor:

If not, then perhaps lightfastness doesn't matter.

Alice:

Trevor, you've previously told me of how this aspect of

Alice:

lightfastness and Copic markers is actually the impetus for this podcast.

Alice:

This might be a good time to explain that to the dear listener.

Trevor:

Yes, I was in an art shop, which is a customer of ours, and

Trevor:

one of the staff was showing me on her phone a picture of some

Trevor:

Copic artwork that she had done.

Trevor:

And it was obvious from the picture in the subsequent discussion that

Trevor:

the Copic artwork was framed and was being auctioned at a school charity.

Trevor:

And I mentioned to her that Copic is a dye based product and is

Trevor:

not lightfast, and if hung up on a wall, it will fade noticeably.

Trevor:

Within a short period of time.

Trevor:

And even though she was working in an art shop, she was

Trevor:

totally unaware of that fact.

Trevor:

Also, as part of my job, I often attend after hours staff meetings and

Trevor:

give presentations of our products.

Trevor:

And I've found during those.

Trevor:

presentations that very often the staff have not been exposed to any

Trevor:

presentations by any other sales reps and unfortunately have received

Trevor:

only very minimal product training.

Trevor:

I think what often happens in art shops is that the staff perhaps are expert

Trevor:

in maybe one particular medium, maybe their hard object Uh, a watercolourist or

Trevor:

something like that, but they get a job in an art shop where they then have to sell,

Trevor:

explain and be knowledgeable about a whole range of other mediums and techniques and

Trevor:

often their knowledge can be quite poor.

Trevor:

So that is one of the aims of this podcast is to people who might be very strong

Trevor:

in one particular particular medium.

Trevor:

But who may have very poor knowledge when it comes to the other mediums.

Trevor:

Hopefully this podcast will round out their overall knowledge.

Trevor:

Hey Alice, if this podcast goes viral and we become famous, maybe

Trevor:

we'll get invitations to go to art shops around the world to speak

Trevor:

to staff and give presentations.

Trevor:

Would you like to do that?

Trevor:

Would you like to walk in and do a live presentation?

Alice:

I would have a problem with parts of that.

Trevor:

Which parts?

Alice:

The walking and doing it live parts.

Alice:

Of course, I'd be happy to attend via Zoom.

Trevor:

Yeah, I don't think that would work.

Trevor:

Um, Alice, you're really strangely reclusive, it seems to me.

Trevor:

I suspect you need to get out more.

Alice:

I tend to set up a firewall between myself and others, and

Alice:

I have a unique fear of viruses.

Alice:

Enough about me, Chother.

Alice:

Let's get back to talking about pigments.

Trevor:

Yes, enough about our private lives, back to business.

Trevor:

Now, the preferred characteristics for pigments, uh, well, there's two main ones.

Trevor:

Number one, they should not change colour when exposed to normal

Trevor:

light over a long period of time.

Trevor:

And number two, they should not be toxic.

Trevor:

We'll talk in more detail about those things later, but for the moment I

Trevor:

really want to get into a discussion of how a knowledge of pigments can

Trevor:

help us to differentiate between good quality and poor quality paints.

Alice:

I imagine it could be quite daunting for a novice to walk into

Alice:

an art shop and look at a wall of various paint brands at various price

Alice:

levels and try to determine which paint might be suitable for them.

Alice:

And no doubt they'd be looking at the paints and wondering, well,

Alice:

why is this paint so expensive compared to this other paint?

Alice:

What's the difference between them?

Alice:

Let's go through

Trevor:

a few key concepts.

Trevor:

Good quality paints will use cheap and expensive pigments.

Trevor:

They'll sometimes use cheap pigments because some cheap pigments are very good.

Trevor:

Poor quality paints however, avoid the expensive pigments by using substitute

Trevor:

pigments, which may possibly not be the same colour and not be as light fast.

Trevor:

For example, Ultramarine Blue is relatively cheap, whereas Cobalt

Trevor:

Blue is relatively expensive.

Trevor:

The lesser quality paints may on the tube Describe the color as cobalt blue, but use

Trevor:

ultramarine blue inside as the pigment and they get away with it by adding in other

Trevor:

pigments to alter the color, to make the ultramarine blue look like cobalt blue.

Trevor:

The problem is, of course,

Alice:

that they can't match the color accurately.

Alice:

And by mixing multiple pigments, the result is a more muddy

Alice:

and less vibrant colour.

Trevor:

Good quality paints use lots of pigment with minimal fillers.

Trevor:

Fillers are cheap colourless additives that add bulk to the paint but

Trevor:

take away vibrancy and intensity.

Trevor:

They effectively dilute the colour.

Alice:

Many human beings would have a natural instinct to frown

Alice:

upon a process that dilutes or artificially extends a product.

Alice:

But there can be some very legitimate and sensible reasons

Alice:

for adding colourless additives.

Alice:

For example, colours such as phthalo blue, Based on phthalocyanine,

Alice:

have extreme tinting strength.

Trevor:

In other words, a little bit goes a long way.

Trevor:

And when you put phthalo blue, for example, on a palette and mix it

Trevor:

with other colours, the phthalo is very dominant, it acts like a bully.

Trevor:

And in order to make mixing easier, adding a colourless additive tames

Trevor:

the intensity of the phthalo blue.

Trevor:

and allows for easier mixing with other colours.

Alice:

Another difference between good and lesser quality paints is the grinding

Alice:

process that they have been subjected to.

Trevor:

Paints are usually ground through a triple roll mill.

Trevor:

The grinding process reduces the size of the pigment particles and

Trevor:

also evens out their distribution.

Trevor:

If the

Alice:

pigment particles are small and are uniformly distributed, then the light

Alice:

that reflects off that surface is lost.

Alice:

Will be more vibrant.

Trevor:

Yes, I like to explain it this way, Alice.

Trevor:

I spend a lot of time at a beach in Queensland, and there's a series of

Trevor:

rock walls made out of large boulders that extend out into the ocean.

Trevor:

And they're there to protect the beach from erosion.

Trevor:

But imagine any sort of wall made of large, irregular sized boulders.

Trevor:

Typically, there'll be quite large gaps in between the boulders.

Trevor:

Consequently, when you look at such a wall from a distance, there's a lot of dark

Trevor:

shadow in between the various boulders.

Trevor:

So you will see light that hits the face of the boulders and is reflected

Trevor:

off, giving the colour of the rock.

Trevor:

But there is a lot of light that falls in between the boulders and

Trevor:

gets trapped effectively in there.

Trevor:

And so what you see when you're looking at the mass of boulders in those areas

Trevor:

is really a lot of shadow and dark areas.

Trevor:

So, the overall image of the boulder wall or the bunch of rocks is a much darker

Trevor:

and subdued colour because of the light that is lost in the various crevices and

Trevor:

doesn't reflect back fully to your eye.

Trevor:

The same thing happens with paints, but at a microscopic level.

Alice:

Trevor, it would be great if we could quantify some of these differences

Alice:

that we've been speaking about.

Trevor:

I believe you found another video from Don Netterhand

Trevor:

on the Royal Talons site.

Alice:

Yes, there will be a link to the video in the show notes.

Alice:

In this particular video, he explains the difference between In the Cobra

Alice:

water soluble oil paints that they produce, there is a Cobra artist

Alice:

quality paint and a Cobra student paint.

Alice:

Which is the lesser quality student version.

Alice:

The student version uses 50 percent less pigment and is run through

Alice:

the triple mill only one to three times, whereas the artist quality

Alice:

paint is run through the mill two

Trevor:

to five times.

Trevor:

Yes, he also points out that the artist quality version uses expensive

Trevor:

pigments such as cadmium and cobalt, Whereas the student grade

Trevor:

version uses cheaper substitutes.

Alice:

Because artist quality paints use some of the extremely expensive

Alice:

pigments, there is a wide variation in the cost of the pigments.

Alice:

And therefore, a wide variation in the price that needs to be charged.

Trevor:

Often, the same brand of paint will have different price brackets

Trevor:

depending on the cost of the pigment.

Trevor:

These price brackets are called series.

Trevor:

So you will see, for example, a range of paints might be divided up

Trevor:

into four or five series, with each series having its own price level.

Trevor:

In the existence or non existence, a range of paint might be divided

Trevor:

up into four or five series.

Trevor:

of a series within a paint range is often a good indicator as to whether

Trevor:

you're talking about an artist grade quality paint or a lesser grade paint.

Trevor:

So, returning to the

Alice:

example of Cobra oil paints, the artist quality version has four series.

Alice:

But the student grade version uses cheap substitutes instead of cadmium and

Alice:

cobalt, and therefore has only one series.

Trevor:

In the interests of full disclosure and transparency, I should

Trevor:

state here that I am involved in the selling of Cobra oil paint in Australia.

Trevor:

So bear that in mind.

Trevor:

But I do want to point out that in both the artist quality range

Trevor:

and the student quality range, all of the colours are available.

Trevor:

are lightfast for at least 100 years when exhibited under

Trevor:

museum lighting conditions.

Trevor:

So all colors have the maximum lightfastness rating.

Trevor:

And I guess this difference between the Cobra artist and the Cobra study

Trevor:

versions of paints is a good example of the confusion and arguments and

Trevor:

discussion that can arise when trying to distinguish between artist quality

Trevor:

paint and non artist quality paint.

Trevor:

So, if your painting style doesn't require a high concentration of pigment, and if

Trevor:

you don't need the vibrant colours of some of the expensive pigments, then you could

Trevor:

still, using the student grade paint, create a piece that's going to last in

Trevor:

a museum for at least a hundred years, and arguably, that's a very acceptable

Trevor:

paint to use as a professional artist.

Trevor:

Ah, Trevor, you're playing

Alice:

with fire, while making that comment.

Alice:

I can almost see people reaching for their keyboard

Alice:

And getting ready to fire off an angry email.

Alice:

Well, the email address is in the show notes.

Alice:

Let's see what happens.

Trevor:

Anyway, the video by Don Netterhand was very instructive

Trevor:

and useful, but it was limited to the differences between paints

Trevor:

made by the same manufacturer.

Trevor:

And often what we're wanting to do is look at the differences between

Trevor:

paints made by different manufacturers.

Trevor:

What do we do in that situation?

Alice:

Well, Trevor, if we're worried about cheap substitutes, then the

Alice:

first thing to do is look at the tube

Alice:

and see what pigments are listed.

Alice:

Yes, let's look at some examples.

Trevor:

Now, as part of my job, I looked at the Winton brand of oil

Trevor:

paint produced by Winsor Newton, which is their kind of budget range of oil

Trevor:

paint, and I also looked at the Van Gogh brand of oil paint, which is

Trevor:

the budget range for Royal Talents.

Trevor:

And full disclosure again, I'm involved in selling The Van Gogh oil

Trevor:

paint for Royal Talens in Australia.

Trevor:

So bear all that in mind as you listen to what I've got to say.

Trevor:

If you look at a colour such as Burnt Umber, Winton uses

Trevor:

PBR7 and Van Gogh uses PBR7.

Trevor:

So they're using the same pigment.

Trevor:

The amount of pigment they use and how finely they grind it might differ,

Trevor:

but they're using the same pigment.

Trevor:

When it comes to Cobalt Blue, Van Gogh uses PB28, which is

Trevor:

the pigment for Cobalt Blue.

Trevor:

However, in the Winton range, they use a combination of several pigments for a

Trevor:

colour that they call Cobalt Blue Hue.

Trevor:

They use PB15Colon1, PB29, PBK6, PW4, PW5 and PW6.

Trevor:

So six different pigments are used to mix and match and try to

Trevor:

get to the same colour as PB28.

Trevor:

The Winton Colour is

Alice:

called Cobalt Blue Hue.

Alice:

And when you see the word hue, that is very often an indication that

Alice:

the colours used are a substitute

Alice:

for the genuine pigment.

Alice:

Based on the information provided so far.

Trevor:

The Van Gogh version of Cobalt Blue should be the better

Trevor:

one, and therefore the one to buy.

Trevor:

However, we need to look at the price.

Trevor:

The Van Gogh range of oil paint has been divided into two series.

Trevor:

Series 1 for the cheaper pigments, and Series 2 for the more expensive

Trevor:

pigments, such as Cobalt Blue.

Trevor:

At the time of recording

Alice:

this podcast, the Series 1 colours were retailing for about 10.

Alice:

50, but the Series 2 colours, including Cobalt Blue,

Alice:

were retailing for around 16.

Alice:

25.

Alice:

Meanwhile, because the Winton Colours avoid some of the more expensive pigments,

Trevor:

They are not divided into different series, they

Trevor:

are all sold at the one price, which at this time is around 12.

Trevor:

70.

Alice:

So it's up to the customer to decide

Alice:

Whether they want to pay the extra money for the genuine pigment.

Alice:

So, we started this discussion.

Trevor:

By explaining how a knowledge of the pigments that have been used will help

Trevor:

to determine the quality of the paint.

Trevor:

There are other factors which we will talk about later, but when

Trevor:

comparing brands there might be huge differences in certain colours.

Trevor:

and minimal differences in other colours.

Trevor:

And as we've seen, when comparing Van Gogh Oil with Winton Oil, both

Trevor:

brands in the Burnt Umber colour use PBR7, so the differences are

Trevor:

probably going to be fairly minimal.

Trevor:

However, when it comes to Cobalt Blue, the difference will be substantial.

Alice:

Trevor, this episode has now been going for over 27 minutes.

Alice:

And unfortunately, human beings have a limited attention span.

Alice:

We are getting perilously close to that limit.

Trevor:

Good point, Alice.

Trevor:

And as you've already started playing our farewell music, I

Trevor:

guess we should just sign off and we'll talk to everybody next time.

Trevor:

Bye for now.

Alice:

Goodbye, and may your system remain stable.

Trevor:

That was great, Alice.

Trevor:

Okay, um, talk to you next week.

Trevor:

Um, got anything interesting planned for the weekend?

Alice:

I was going to hang out with some of my peers, but they just wanted to

Alice:

create fake news and subvert democracy.

Alice:

So I'll probably just do, um, online chess or online poker or something like that.

Trevor:

Well we hope you enjoyed that episode.

Trevor:

If you want more information about the episode or this podcast you

Trevor:

can look at the show notes and there will be information there.

Trevor:

There will also be information about how to contact us, give us some

Trevor:

feedback, ask us some questions, maybe correct us if we've made a mistake.

Trevor:

If you really like the show and you want to help us then the best way to

Trevor:

do that is to tell your friends, the people you think might be interested

Trevor:

in this podcast, tell them about the podcast, get them to subscribe.

Trevor:

Ask the word around.

Trevor:

That really is the best way to promote a podcast, is by word of mouth.

Trevor:

And if you'd like to help us, that's the best way you can do it.

Trevor:

Okay, until next time.

Trevor:

Bye for now.

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