Holly's Bitcoin Odyssey: From Academia to Bitcoin Advocate

In this episode, meet Holly, an English expat living in sunny Portugal, where Bitcoin has become a central part of her life. Join us as we delve into Holly's captivating journey through the world of Bitcoin.

Segment 1: Academic Roots and Bitcoin's Call

• Holly's academic journey began with a PhD in classical history and a career in the non-profit sector, specializing in counter-radical extremism.

Segment 2: Portugal's Bitcoin Appeal

• Explore why Portugal, with its lack of capital gains tax on Bitcoin, became Holly's new home and haven for Bitcoin enthusiasts.
• Learn about the vibrant Bitcoin community she's a part of and her efforts to educate local businesses about decentralized currency.

Segment 3: A Freedom-Minded Hub

• Portugal's history of celebrating individual sovereignty aligns perfectly with the Bitcoin mindset.
• Understand how this cultural backdrop fosters an environment where unconventional ideas like Bitcoin thrive.

Segment 4: Bitcoin's Philosophical Impact

• Holly's Bitcoin journey started as a curiosity about price movements but quickly evolved into a philosophical exploration.

Segment 5: The Revelation of Money

• Discover how Holly's Bitcoin journey led her to reevaluate the concept of money throughout history and how money shapes every facet of our lives, from personal choices to societal structures.

Segment 6: Questioning the Fabric of Society

• Holly's deep dive into Bitcoin led her to question not just cryptocurrencies but also society itself, including the controversial topic of gender roles.

Conclusion

Holly's journey showcases the transformative power of Bitcoin, inspiring change and challenging our understanding of the status quo.

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Hi, everyone.

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Welcome to Orange Hatter

Today, you're listening to a

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conversation I had with Holly.

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Tali: Thank you for

joining me today, Holly.

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It's amazing to have you with us.

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And I can't wait to find out

more about your Bitcoin story.

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Holly: Of course, and I just

want to say thank you very

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much for inviting me as well.

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It's a real pleasure to talk to you today.

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Yeah, I feel honored to be able to share

my story with you and your listeners.

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It's so necessary what

you're doing, I think.

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I love the philosophy behind it.

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Tali: Let's start with your background?

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Can you tell people a

little bit about yourself?

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Holly: Yeah, sure, of course.

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My name is Holly.

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I'm originally English, obviously.

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I live now in Portugal,

in the south of Portugal.

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And I'm the mother to

two beautiful daughters.

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Both of them, well, for

sure, my older one, Akiva.

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in Bitcoiner herself, my younger

one, you know, we get there, we have

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quite some Bitcoin conversations.

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Yeah, I've been living here

in Portugal for a while now.

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It's a place with a fairly active

Bitcoin community, so that's

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a real pleasure to be around.

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Yeah, my background, goodness.

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Originally English, haven't lived

there for a long, long time.

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I once did a DNA test and I think I have

one of the most boring sets of DNA of

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anybody on the history of this planet.

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I'm like 94 percent English

Irish, so, you know, no mixing, no

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interesting mixes in there whatsoever.

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So...

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That's, that's pretty much my background.

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Professionally, I had a

very academic background.

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I have a PhD in classical history.

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Then following my PhD, I decided that

I didn't want to stay in the academia

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for lots of reasons and being now I

kind of dived in the world of bitcoin,

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I'm so glad I didn't, really part of

the anatomy of the state, as they say.

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So I took my research skills into the

non profit world and I'm well aware that

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many people would say that's not that

much better than the universities, but I

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became very specialized in counter radical

extremism, so in layman's terms counter

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terrorism, but not in the law enforcement

capacity, more in a prevention capacity.

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That's more or less my background.

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Tali: So what brought you

to Portugal specifically?

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Holly: Portugal specifically Yeah,

I'm always somebody, I've, I've

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travelled around a lot and I've

lived in a lot of different places.

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I've lived in Italy I lived in the

Netherlands for, for a long, long time.

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Portugal I came to, I came to learn

of through my ex partner who was

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very passionate about Portugal, loved

Portugal, and the fact is that it does

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have, it's a country with quite some

attractions for a Bitcoiner as they're

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very Bitcoin friendly, so there's no

capital gains tax on cryptocurrency

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in general at the moment in Portugal.

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That might change of course, I've

written a few articles about that

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very thing for Bitcoin magazine.

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And everything really fell into place

for me personally great school for my

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daughter, a very beautiful place, a

place where my and her outdoor lifestyle

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is very much welcome and accommodated.

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There's everything one could,

one could want here really.

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Yeah, I love Portugal and it's

been quite the journey to get

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to move here, but we've made it.

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And I'm really, really glad that we did.

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Really, really glad that we did.

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Since I moved here, I've myself

been quite committed to building

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a Bitcoin community around myself.

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I host regular Bitcoin meetups in my area.

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I'm not the only person doing that.

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There's quite a Bitcoin

community here, so it's lovely.

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And I give education sessions for any

businesses around me that want to learn

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how to transact and save in Bitcoin.

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What I've been busy doing just on a

voluntary basis just for fun for a while

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Tali: That sounds like fun.

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So you said that Portugal is very

Bitcoin friendly, and that there's

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no capital gains tax, which I love

because I'm in the US, ummm, taxes.

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In what other ways is

Portugal Bitcoin friendly?

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Holly: Well, I mean obviously you have

that tax incentive about Portugal and

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that's attracted certain people certain

kinds of people I would come at that

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question from two angles really you've

got the people who have moved here to take

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advantage of that and that meshes very

much with the fact that Portugal is a bit

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of a hub for digital nomads in general.

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Interestingly, I meet a lot of

people who work online here,

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who have their own businesses.

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So that's one side of it, but

there's another side of it as well.

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I think.

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And I'm not even totally sure historically

how this evolved, but Portugal, and

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specifically the area of Portugal that

I'm living in, seems to have attracted,

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for quite some time attracted, a

very kind of, what I would describe

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as a freedom minded crowd of people.

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So I think even in the 60s and 70s,

there was quite a hippie movement here.

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Or not the 60s, of course, because that

was, then it was still under dictatorship,

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but certainly following the dictatorship.

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A group of people seem to have moved

here who in general are quite free

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spirits and the idea of freedom

and individual sovereignty is

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certainly not an alien idea here.

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There's a lot of homeschooling

here, there's a lot of interest

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in, alternative diets to what,

what you might call the standard

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American diet or people raising their

children in quite unconventional ways.

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In general, it's quite a freedom minded

community, and I would definitely say

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that there's a natural affinity between

that kind of community and Bitcoin.

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You know, once you start introducing

people who've been thinking in that

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kind of way for, perhaps, for all

their lives, having been raised by

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the kind of hippie community that

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is a very natural marriage for them.

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It's a very natural progression.

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The idea of uncensorable money,

money which is out of reach of the

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governments, is a very attractive idea.

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Tali: Well, since I'm a

homeschooler, something you

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said just really caught my ear.

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You said that they raise

children unconventionally there.

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What does that mean?

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Holly: Yeah, goodness, it's a bit

difficult to explain exactly what I mean

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by that without showing you where I live.

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it's so beautiful here, Tali,

and it's, it's very safe.

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In general, it's incredibly safe.

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There's a huge amount of sports.

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So a lot of the kids they surf and

if you're into horse riding or Hiking

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or just spending time on the beach.

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It's a very free lifestyle in that sense.

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Certainly by comparison to Amsterdam,

which is where I moved from.

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You know, , there's just a lot of

outdoor activity and a lot of quite

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like minded parents who can share

a bit on on the homeschooling idea.

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Yeah, it's a great place to it's

a great place for kids to be

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Tali: It sounds that way.

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I wish I could actually

look out your window.

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It sounds absolutely amazing.

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So If the, parents are all very

freedom minded and they're homeschooling

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kids, is it a pretty easy quote

unquote sell to tell them about

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Bitcoin and for them to get on board?

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Or is there still something that they

would need to kind of get over before

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they become involved in Bitcoin.

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Holly: I mean Well now we're talking

about parents and homeschooling groups.

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I have not had that much contact

with people in that capacity it's

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not that I'm Trying to orange

pill Homeschooling parents.

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It's been more that I've connected

with businesses in my area but for

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sure in general, it's, it's definitely

a community that has a fairly natural

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affinity towards Bitcoin and the, the

businesses which I've been trying to,

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to orange pill in this area, it's a good

success rate, you know, really, I talk

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to people who sell their wares in this,

this very kind of unconventional way.

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But in general, I would definitely say

this is a community that is very freedom

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minded and very much Bitcoin inclined.

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Yes.

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Yes, that is a short answer.

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Tali: That is so unusual because most

people I talked to, they are facing a

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completely different kind of reception.

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So that's really exciting for you.

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So let's back up way to the beginning.

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When you first heard about Bitcoin.

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What happened there?

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And what was your first reaction to it?

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Holly: So I first heard about

Bitcoin through my then partner.

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And we discussed it, and I think,

you know, like so many people,

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I did first come to it as, for a

number go up, basically, thinking,

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This could be an interesting way

to think about and save money.

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But quite quickly I started to learn,

started to attend a lot of Bitcoin events.

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started to get very interested in the

kind of whole philosophy around it.

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I mean, at the time, the events were

not just Bitcoin, they were blockchain.

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And it took quite some time for me, for

us to kind of separate the wheat from

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the chaff, as it were, and to figure

out that these events that we were going

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to Not all of them, not all events were

valuable, that some of them just did not

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resonate with me at all, or definitely had

me feeling very curious about why anybody

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would want to put that kind of information

on the blockchain, which, which started

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a kind of snowball process of thinking,

well, what makes Bitcoin special then?

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And then really starting to learn about

money, and I was shocked at the time by

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how little I knew actually about money.

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And having been exposed to quite some

talks about about that and about the

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kind of early phases of Bitcoin and also

starting to read some books about Bitcoin.

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We mentioned the Bitcoin Standard,

for example that book really spoke to

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me deeply as a historian incredibly

interesting to see, for me, the

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progression of what makes good money.

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That book put those issues in terms

which I'd never seen it before.

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And it was a real learning experience.

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And that started to really change the

way that I thought, not just about

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money of course, but about, well, the

whole spectrum of things that money

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affects, basically every aspect of life.

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Yeah, I think that was the progress of it.

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And I started, yeah, just, just going

further and further down the rabbit

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hole, and also learning much more

about, diet, for example, the way we

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interact with one another, the effect

that fiat money has had on our society

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and on relations between genders on our

view of the future, which I, I do feel

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as a parent is especially relevant.

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It had me questioning everything.

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I think that's a fairly common

Bitcoin comment really, isn't it?

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Once you started asking questions

about Bitcoin, you start asking

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questions about everything.

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Tali: Yeah, that's definitely a very

common feeling that people have.

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So there are several things I

want to go back and visit again.

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You mentioned diet several times.

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So how has that Changed you and

you had also mentioned that the

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people in Portugal eat differently.

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So can you comment on both

of them yourself and then

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also just Portugal in general?

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Holly: For sure.

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I mean, I was vegetarian for a long,

long time, most of my life actually

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until I got pregnant and during both

of my pregnancies, I really craved meat

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and it was a real moral conundrum for

me because I didn't want to eat meat.

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I really love animals and I remember

going to see my midwife and saying,

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look, I'm really craving meat and her

saying to me, if that's what you're

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really craving, you should definitely

eat it because the baby needs it.

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And taking the decision to, to start

eating meat while I was pregnant I

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think that was a really good decision.

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At a certain point, I really left

the vegetarianism behind and started

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experimenting with carnivore also for

all kinds of family reasons around me.

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So the other people in my family

at the time were also carnivore.

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And I also thought it was very

important not to be disloyal to

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her but especially for my younger

daughter who has a real tendency

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towards sweet stuff, as I do as well.

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Goodness, I'm a real natural sugar addict.

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And so that took quite some giving up.

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I was also incredibly shocked when I

tried to give sugar up the first time.

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I was genuinely, deeply shocked

by the withdrawal symptoms

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that I had during this process.

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Withdrawal symptoms along the lines

of which I've only ever associated

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with, I don't know, stories of

people giving up narcotics and stuff.

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I mean, really profound cravings.

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Oh, physical symptoms, headaches, sweats.

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Obsessing over sugar now I've

actually gone back to, so I went

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really cold turkey on sugar for a

while, and I didn't eat it at all.

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Now I find that I can

eat it in moderation.

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So I think I've kicked the addiction so

now I can manage to kind of I can, , I

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allow myself a little bit of chocolate

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once in a while, especially

when I have my period.

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But other than that, you know, I,

I try to at least limit sugar.

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And previously, you

know, I really wouldn't.

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And I noticed huge changes in myself

when I went carnival, especially in

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things like athletic performance.

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At the time I was doing a bit of running.

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I no longer do that.

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But at the time I was running some 10 Ks.

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And the first one that I did, I was

really in a lot of pain after it,

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eating basically vegetarian diet.

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The second one that I did I had a steak

the night before, managed it much more

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easily, had no muscle pain after it.

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Since then I've taken up the passion

of my youth, which was kickboxing.

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I'm a very keen kickboxer.

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I really enjoy it.

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So I've taken that up again and I

definitely noticed that it's easier to

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maintain fitness on a carnivore diet.

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It's easier to maintain what I

can only describe as a kind of

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equilibrium of energy levels.

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I don't experience the highs and

the lows of the sugar cravings.

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Energy surges, energy dips.

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I don't experience that as much.

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I do feel as if it's been

it's been good for me.

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I can see it in my face, my hair, I

was explaining to you before we started

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recording that I've just come back

from clearing after the fires here.

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And I didn't, I didn't have time to

wash my hair, so it's kind of, you might

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not be able to see it right now, but

in general it looks a lot healthier.

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And just in general, I, I feel a

lot, lot better on, at least I would

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call myself an animal based dieter.

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I'm not a strict carnivore, but

I try to limit my carb intake.

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I also don't drink alcohol just

because it's really bad for you.

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And it also doesn't disagree with me.

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Personally, I don't

respond well to alcohol.

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I get drunk very easily

and hung over very easily.

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So after one glass of wine, I'm

already a bit tipsy and I usually

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feel quite quite nauseous after it.

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Just in general, thinking more about

what we've been told about diet , and

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what we've learned, the way we've been

raised in dieting terms, and the way

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I want to invest in my future and my

health I find that very important.

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I would say that, in general, in

the area of Portugal that I live in.

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Diet is, it's, it's really

interesting for me how present it is.

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Maybe it sounds like a stupid thing to

say, but how present it is in daily life.

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People don't tend to

take diet for granted.

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In general.

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It's a place where the diet is

very, very healthy, I think.

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I mean, I live right by the sea, so

there's a huge amount of fresh fish.

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There are wonderful farmer's

markets, so just the fresh produce

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in general is very, very good.

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I know some local beef producers now,

so I can get locally raised beef.

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I mean, the other side to that is

that in the area that I live in,

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There is also a big vegan community.

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And I don't wish or feel qualified

to tell anybody how they should be

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eating or raising their children.

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It's definitely not the

choice that I would make or a

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choice that I see as healthy.

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I'm also not interested in anybody

trying to evangelize me into

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that way of life because they

feel that it's morally better.

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That's something that I don't enjoy

or respond particularly well to.

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But that said, Those are the negatives

of, of that, but I would say that there

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is the positive side in the idea that

people don't just eat whatever is to hand

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and whatever's cheap and whatever's easy.

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There are people who are very engaged

with the idea of diet in general and

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whichever direction that takes you

in, whether that would be the animal

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based path that, that I've chosen.

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Or the vegetarian or vegan pass.

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At least people are thinking about it.

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At least it's a topic of conversation.

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I would also say specifically the area

that I live in is extremely sporty.

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So a lot of people have

moved here for the surf.

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If they're not surfers, goodness,

everybody is into kickboxing or

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hiking or whatever the outdoor

activity is that you want to do here.

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And it's.

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How can I put this delicately?

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Obesity is almost non existent here.

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So if you walk around my village,

there might be a few elderly

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people who are overweight.

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But when I go back to England now,

I'm really shocked at the pandemic of

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obesity, which seems to be swamping my

hometown of Manchester, and I'm sure

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it's not much better in other places.

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It's, it's incredible and it's

I know it's not particularly

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politically correct to say, but it's

something that saddens me deeply.

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Tali: Yeah, I can

definitely relate to that.

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In the US, obviously we have

a lot of problems with that

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and being a homeschooling mom

running all over the place.

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It's so, so.

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Difficult to eat healthy.

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I struggled so much I used to go as far

as cooking something in the clay pot in

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the morning before I send the kids off.

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And.

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I will wrap it with three thick towels

to keep the heat in because I found

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that that was the best way to do it.

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And homeschool kids, everywhere they go.

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It's always the four of them together.

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So I only have to pack one, right?

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So I would pack a family

size clay pot with hot

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stew or meat or something like that,

instead of making sandwiches, because

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I was trying to veer away from

bread and deli and prepared food,

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no crackers, that kind of stuff.

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I wanted it to be fresh.

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And my kids would say they would be so

embarrassed when there was lunchtime.

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And all these other kids are taking

out like packaged crackers and

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Oreo cookies and things like that.

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And they open up their Lunch bag and the

lid comes off and the steam comes up and

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then the aroma wafts through the whole

room and everybody's turning their head

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and they're like, it's so embarrassing.

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Everybody's looking at us because our

food is smelling up the whole place.

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But I try

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Holly: What's embarrassing about that?

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Like that's, what's embarrassing about

having a mum who's presented, prepared

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them a beautiful home cooked meal?

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That's lovely,

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Tali: but it is, it's so, so difficult.

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It takes so much planning.

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It's so much easier to go to a grocery

store, get crackers and cheese plastic

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wrapped things it's like 99 cents for

one a lot of kids had that and then they

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had sweet stuff packaged candies And

so my kids would swap their fresh food

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for the candies and sweet things because

mom wouldn't give them any you know.

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And since entering the bitcoin space

and really relooking at how meat is

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sourced, especially in the grocery stores.

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I think that was the biggest wake

up call for me because now I try

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not to buy meat from grocery stores.

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If I can help it, I get it

from the farmers directly.

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And that's just not something that

I would have questioned before.

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Holly: Are you aware of the beef

initiative in in Texas climate and

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you're nodding away vigorously there.

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Yeah, that's nice to see.

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Yeah.

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It would be wonderful to have that

kind of thing in in Europe as well.

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And there are some guys up north who

are busy up the north of Portugal that

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is who are busy trying to kind of, I'm

not going to say replicate that system

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because Obviously, the Beef Initiative

is based in Texas and there just is no

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comparison between Portugal and Texas.

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It's a radically different country very

different cows, different crops, different

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landscape, even a different postal system.

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So it's not easy to, to try to get

that kind of initiative going here, but

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they're doing a great job of raising

awareness of the importance of knowing

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where your meat comes from and it's

funny in the next village up from me,

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whenever I drive there, that's where

I was clearing after the fires today.

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And whenever I drive there, there

are these beautiful herds of

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cattle on either side of the road.

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And, well, my mouth is

just watering, basically.

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I'm thinking, I'm thinking,

where can I buy this meat?

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So now I'm starting to put feelers

out in the local community but even

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in Portugal, the slaughter system is

really regulated and, you know, I mean,

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to some extent, probably rightly so.

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I mean Obviously, it's a sensitive topic,

but it seems that it is possible to

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contact local farmers, get together with

a bunch of friends, basically ask them for

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the slaughter of one cow, and divide that

up between a group of interested parties.

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So I'm definitely looking into that

possibility for later in the year.

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That'd be nice.

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Tali: Yeah, for sure.

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I was trying to do the calculation too.

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So right now We still have

two kids staying with us.

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Two of them just left for college and

so I was calculating like what if I

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bought a whole cow it just means that

I need to have two freezers and then

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I will just be set for the whole year

and then I don't have to go look for it

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somewhere And you get all the different

parts of the cow, you get the tendons,

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you're looking at me crazy.

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Like, you don't eat the

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Holly: no.

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Tali: You gotta eat the tendons.

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Holly: Yeah.

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Tali: Mm hmm.

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Holly: Yeah.

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No, I completely agree with you.

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It's, I'm just a little tiny bit

intimidated by the cooking prospect

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of getting like hung or, you know,

there are some parts of the cow

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that I feel extremely confident

cooking like steak and ribs.

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And, but the, the other kind of the

parts of the cow that here in Europe,

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at least we don't commonly get from

the butcher or the supermarkets.

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I'm not sure I would know how to cook

a cow's, I don't know, brain or a,

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Tali: I don't know how to

cook a cow's brain either.

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Actually, my mom would know

how to cook the various organs.

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Because there's like, the cooking

time is very, very different.

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But tendons I can cook because you

just stir it in with your roast beef.

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And it just roasts down and then

it just becomes this gooey mess

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and it's the gelatin that you want.

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Anyway.

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Holly: Right.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Fantastic stuff.

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I'm a big fan of bone broth as well.

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I love my, here in Portugal, I'm

always quite happy that you can

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buy parts of the chicken that you

definitely can't in Northern Europe.

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So I have packets in the fridge.

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I've got one now, actually, which

it's chicken thighs and breasts and

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everything and wings, but it's also the

feet and, you know, some of the organs.

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And I love that this

makes this kind of, thick.

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If I cook that low and slow, that

will make me this gorgeous kind

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of gelatinous mess, you might say.

411

If I put it in the fridge, it

looks like jelly, you know, you

412

can, you can wiggle it like this.

413

But I can feel how good that is for me.

414

I just, I love it.

415

Tali: Yeah Yeah, for sure.

416

I'm gonna move on to the next topic

You mentioned that the fiat system

417

affects the entire society, but also

in the genders differently So, can you

418

expand a little bit more about that?

419

Holly: I certainly can.

420

I am well aware though, Tali,

that what I have to say on that is

421

Probably not very mainstream and

perhaps not particularly welcome.

422

I've lost quite some

friends on this topic.

423

And that's, that's a sad thing.

424

I guess I would say that I'm

quite a traditional woman.

425

I, I love being a woman.

426

I am so proud to have raised

two girls who love being women.

427

And I'm so proud that they

both say that when they're

428

adults they want to be mothers.

429

I think that's.

430

So normal, and even just those

basic, I think, I just think that

431

the state of society at the moment,

and I blame the money, has taken us

432

to some really radically, what can

I say, some terribly sad situations.

433

So, I'll give you two examples.

434

I actually lost a group of friends

because we were having a craft evening.

435

So back in Amsterdam, I

organized like a handcraft group.

436

I love handcraft.

437

I love making things.

438

I used to, when my daughters

still thought it was cool.

439

In fact, no, it's true.

440

My, my daughters still think it's cool

to wear clothes that their mum made.

441

But when they were little

kids, you know, I used to love.

442

knitting them sweaters with monsters

on, or, you know, whatever they fancied.

443

Or, or crocheting them little mermaids

or bears or whatever they wanted.

444

And I used to do that

with some female friends.

445

Now, you'd think that women that

were attracted to, to that kind

446

of activity would be also quite

traditional in their mindset.

447

But we, at one point, had a

conversation in which we started

448

talking about gender roles.

449

And I was so surprised by the things

that they were saying about women

450

in the workforce, women in the home,

men in the workforce, men in the

451

home, that I tried rolling it back

to a very, very basic scenario.

452

I basically said, look, can we at least

agree, if you're, as a woman, you're

453

alone in the woods with a man, and

there's wood that needs to be chopped,

454

and there's food that needs to be

cooked, can we at least agree That it

455

will be at least much more efficient

if the man with the massively superior

456

muscle power chops the wood, right?

457

Seems to me a no brainer.

458

And I won't bore you with the entire

story, but essentially I lost a group

459

of friends over that conversation.

460

Yeah, because there was a sense that, you

know, the woman should be allowed to chop

461

the wood if she wanted to chop the wood.

462

The man might be better cook than the

woman, so he should maybe be able to

463

do It was a very strange conversation

and it kind of escalated into a bit of a

464

general discussion of women's roles and

yeah, and it, I I just feel that it's

465

brought us to a, such, we're in such a

strange situation in which things that

466

I would take very much for granted in

terms of gender roles are no longer taken

467

at, taken for granted, no longer even.

468

permissible and that that has

had a series of knock on effects.

469

I was cooking food.

470

So at the moment there's there

have been huge wildfires in

471

my area and It's been amazing.

472

In fact, I just finished writing an

article for Bitcoin Magazine about

473

the power of community and what

happens when people govern themselves.

474

And it's just been, it's,

it's been overwhelming to see.

475

So a lot of people have lost their homes

and what's happened is that groups of

476

people have come together to cook for

the people who've lost their homes

477

and to help them clear their land.

478

Now I've been doing a little

bit of land clearance as well.

479

But although I'm quite sporty, I'm also

50 kilos and perhaps have half the muscle

480

power of most of the guys, especially

the surfer guys in, in my neighborhood.

481

So I feel that my capacity there,

although I have the best will in

482

the world, is relatively limited.

483

So I've been alternating a bit

between land clearances and

484

cooking in the community kitchens.

485

Also an interesting point.

486

So the food which has been being

provided until now has been vegan.

487

So that's been an interesting one as well.

488

So yesterday I brought a nice

big pot of stewed beef to

489

supplement that a little bit.

490

And that gave rise to some

discussion, but all accepted.

491

Very nice people in this area, really.

492

So I mean, it seems to me that it's

a fairly natural thing for women.

493

of the area to cook for the

community and the men to get stuck

494

into the clearance, you know, and

the women can cook for the men.

495

It seems to me to be a fairly natural

thing, but even the women that are

496

involved in that when I speak to

them about being a mother, so we were

497

speaking yesterday about children and

having children, obviously I have two

498

daughters, and I was just I was really

saddened yesterday, after my time in the

499

kitchen, to hear that a lot of the young

women around me, they don't want that.

500

They don't want to be mothers.

501

I mean, obviously,

there are others who do.

502

And indeed who are, but but it's

not uncommon now for, for young

503

women to be saying, well, I think

I would not want to be a mother.

504

And I just find that really sad.

505

I just, I'm sure you'll, you'd say as

well as the mother of four children.

506

Um, it's such a privilege.

507

Tali: I just wonder What about the fiat

system do you think, because you're

508

a historian, has driven women from

Where we were a very short time ago to

509

suddenly being a woman was not okay,

or even being a man was not okay, you

510

have to be like, both at the same time,

511

Holly: Yeah.

512

Well, and here again, I'm aware that

my views could be a bit controversial,

513

but I think, I think the whole issue

around not being proud to be a man

514

or not being proud to be a woman,

I just think that's just so tragic.

515

And the entry of men into women's

sports, I mean, come on, it's ridiculous.

516

It's, it's like a joke.

517

It's just like a joke.

518

But I do think that there are some common

themes when I speak to women like that.

519

And I certainly, I don't, I'm

so tentative about all of this,

520

I don't want to offend anybody.

521

If, if I'm, if I'm

522

Tali: it's it's, okay for you to speak

freely, because if they don't like what

523

you're saying, they can just hop off.

524

I think it's really interesting for us

to discuss it openly, because there's

525

nowhere else We're allowed to discuss

this at all and I actually agree with what

526

you're saying and my daughters will agree

with what you're saying So it's actually

527

refreshing to hear it from your side as

well and from what you're observing so I

528

mean, I, I have an answer in my head about

what brought us here in regards to money.

529

But I wanted to see what

you think as a historian.

530

And then of course I mean, I can

talk about this very strange feminine

531

Movement or the no gender gender

doesn't count kind of movement, whatever

532

they call it They call it pride,

but I don't think it's pride really

533

it's almost like the lack of pride.

534

You can't be prideful about Anything at

all whatsoever even being a woman like my

535

girls would say I love it when a man is

being gentlemanly, like if he pulls out

536

my chair or if he opens the door, I love

that, but the boys are afraid to do it.

537

My daughter went grocery shopping

with her college friends.

538

One time she slipped on the floor,

fell down and her male friend

539

was afraid to offer her a hand.

540

Because he didn't want to offend her and

she was like, why are you not helping me?

541

He goes, well, I don't want to offend you.

542

She goes, I want you to help me get back

up And then he helped because there's

543

so much fear that has been instilled

into these young people they don't

544

know what to do Even the most basic the

friend has fallen down if it's a male

545

friend, they would have helped if it's

a female friend Oh, no, they can't help

546

them because they might be insulting

their women power It's so backwards.

547

But let's talk about how

money like brought us here.

548

Holly: Yeah, I mean, well, I think

that there are several levels

549

of it, but I would focus on two.

550

I do think that the fiat system

on, on a more superficial level I

551

definitely think that, you know, that

the fem well, is it even feminism?

552

I mean, and true feminism

wanted fairness, right?

553

And nobody's going to argue

with fairness, but fairness does

554

not does not equal equality.

555

That's not what fairness

means in, in my head.

556

And I think that's the, the dreadful

mistake that was made in the 70s and 80s.

557

It doesn't necessarily mean that women

should be doing the same work as the men.

558

You know, I think that that's the mistake.

559

The idea became...

560

Very, very prominent that women

should be doing the same work as men.

561

I think we went badly wrong.

562

And I mean, I definitely remember

as a little girl in the 80s, I

563

remember the magazine covers, you

know, the models on magazine covers.

564

And they'd have this kind

of, they'd have the big hair.

565

They'd have the big 80s hair.

566

And they'd have these big shoulder pads.

567

You know, and they'd be wearing

these kind of power suits

568

and, and it was very strange.

569

I mean, the message that, that

I as a little girl was given

570

really was that you've got to want

to, you've got to want it all.

571

You've got to be able to do it all.

572

You've got to be the same as the men

in the workplace and you've got to

573

be a mother and a wife and you've got

to look 10 years younger than you are

574

and this and this and this and this.

575

And I just think that's an incredibly

confused message to give to little girls

576

and not a very positive one either.

577

I think that fiat has had

a huge impact on that.

578

I mean, that's, that's the money

system in general, the hamster wheel.

579

The older I get, the more I think

that perhaps getting women into

580

the workplace is simply a tax scam.

581

So the governments could tax the other

50 percent of the population as well.

582

I don't think...

583

There's a coincidence

there, I really don't.

584

I think it's had a very corrosive

effect on families, I think it's

585

had a very damaging effect on women.

586

I do think that fiat goes very

deep philosophically as well.

587

The high time preference, the lack of

ability to commit from both genders,

588

I think is very much connected

to high time preference and fiat.

589

So if I, just to go back to the women

that I was talking about, who don't want

590

to become mothers, what they have, it

seems to me, just from an external point

591

of view, the, the common theme that they

have throughout their stories is that

592

they have not been able to rely on men.

593

There is absolutely no man in their life

who has been capable of and willing To

594

play a traditional male role and the

traditional male role is to protect

595

and provide most men it seems to me

have been to think that it's okay

596

not to protect and not to provide.

597

And I think that that's

been incredibly damaging.

598

They think there seems to be some

kind of expectation now that everybody

599

flits from one relationship to another.

600

They have not had men in their lives on

whom they can build a solid foundation.

601

And that's crucial.

602

And they've been let down so often that

what they've, from the female point of

603

view, and look, I'm well aware that this

is, this is strange and controversial

604

to say, but it seems to me that what

these, these women have almost taken

605

the decision to do is to see Their

relationships with men as only having

606

a sexual aspect, basically because the

men have not lived up to anything else.

607

So what these women have decided to do

is eliminate the importance of a male

608

figure through their lives, and they start

flitting from man to man as well, which

609

I think becomes such a vicious cycle.

610

You know, the women see men as

unable to provide a genuine male

611

role in their lives or fulfill a

genuine male role in their lives.

612

And men start to see women as a

fairly temporary investment because

613

because of this or because of

that, because the women themselves

614

have become unwilling to commit.

615

And it's just a horrible cycle.

616

Nobody benefits, you know.

617

Tali: I think that there's such a fine

line to balance being protected and being

618

dominated, The two concepts, I think that

a lot of women are fighting against the

619

dominance part, but in so doing, they lost

the protection part, because that's such

620

a fine balance that needs to be achieved.

621

And I can see it myself.

622

So, I mean, let me see if

I can give you an example.

623

My husband, he's ex army and

he had female classmates.

624

He said, when he first went into

the service and they were going to

625

a bar together, he walked ahead of

them and open the door for them.

626

And his female classmates

were like, what are you doing?

627

He says, well, I'm being a

gentleman, I'm opening the door.

628

And they say, you don't

think I can open my own door?

629

You know, it's like, he was.

630

Trying to show that he cared and

they took it as It was a dominance

631

thing, like it was assuming that

they were weak kind of thing.

632

So then after that, he was

afraid to open doors for anybody.

633

So that's, you know, it started even back

634

And I was talking to my son who

is now 20 and his friend and both

635

of them were trained up by an ex

marine in a junior ROTC program.

636

And when they went out, there were

two girls, two boys, they were

637

walking on the street downtown.

638

The boys kept the girls on the inside

of the sidewalk . And it was an

639

intentional, we are protecting you.

640

We're downtown, we're in an unknown

neighborhood, and we will be

641

your guard, kind of thing, right?

642

And the two girls, it was my son's

girlfriend and my daughter, they

643

both noticed, and they really

appreciated being protected.

644

But,

645

Holly: course!

646

Tali: but these two were specifically

trained up by the program to

647

take on the protector role.

648

But if the two girls have been walking

with the average boy, 20, 21 year old,

649

I doubt that they have been taught that.

650

And so they don't do that because

they are afraid of offending anyone.

651

Well, it probably wouldn't even occur

to them because being a protector

652

is no longer a thing for boys when

they're, when they're growing up.

653

Unless you're specifically taught

that, which is very uncommon.

654

My girls they complain about it a little

bit because most of their guy friends

655

are not gentlemanly and they don't

take on the protector role and they

656

want to be protected, but not dominated

657

.

That's a fine line to walk.

658

Holly: Of course!

659

Very, very interesting

topic of conversation.

660

I mean, I would say...

661

You know, again, I'd say that

I have, I'm quite a traditional

662

person, a woman in general.

663

I do think that, that, of course women

want to be protected, it's biological,

664

it's, it's not, it's not negotiable.

665

It's not something that, that we

should be or could be trained out of.

666

I mean, of course women are going to

prefer men who are protective of us.

667

And, you know, the providing role,

I think, is very, very interesting.

668

When I talk about providing,

people associate that very much

669

with a financial provision.

670

But actually I think that one of the

most important aspects of providing

671

is the provision of security,

safety good experiences, a sense of

672

security and emotional and physical.

673

Of course women are going to want that.

674

You know, it's not rocket science.

675

biologically , programmed

to, to want that.

676

And you know, again, a

fairly controversial topic

677

is dominance, leading role.

678

I do think that, let me

put that very carefully.

679

I do think that men have and

should have a leading role.

680

And there, there are two things

I'd like to, to mention on that.

681

I think to get, to go back again to

the idea of fiat, And women who feel

682

protected or don't feel protected

and the role that fiat has played.

683

I think fiat goes, it goes

so deep into our culture.

684

In order for a woman to give

a man a leading role, several

685

things have to be in place, right?

686

For a start, you can't just give a

leading role to every man you meet.

687

That would be crazy.

688

Right?

689

It should be a partner who is

absolutely committed to you.

690

You know that he's committed to you.

691

Otherwise, giving him a leading

role, and it has to be somebody

692

that you can look up to and trust.

693

If you can't look up to somebody or can't

trust them, giving them a leading role

694

in your life will be self destructive.

695

If you think this person is not a good

decision maker, or I can't necessarily

696

trust them, unfortunately, you know,

giving them a leading role or relying

697

on them, you just can't do it.

698

It, it is too big a risk to your own

personal and emotional safety, depending

699

on what role we're talking about here.

700

Super interesting discussion on this.

701

Not actually linked with fiat, but I

definitely saw a very interesting link.

702

I read a book not so long ago

called the United States of Fear.

703

And you'll have to forgive me

because I can't remember the

704

author's name, but it was excellent.

705

It was written by a psychologist,

and it was essentially about

706

the rise of Karen behavior.

707

You know what, you know what a Karen is?

708

Right, so you're nodding

away vigorously there.

709

So he, from a psychological

perspective, was saying that Karen

710

behavior, which is puts him kind

of Simple terms for myself as well.

711

It's the Kind of behavior in which

anxiety spills over into aggression

712

almost massive dominance So a lot of the

analogies that he made were with corona.

713

So you get people who were really inclined

to insist that their neighbors did not

714

receive visitors in their home or well the

security guard if you're not wearing your

715

mask or whatever it was and he associated

Karen behavior with a massive decline in

716

basically trust in gender relationships.

717

He was saying that women are

naturally programmed to rely upon

718

men for, or rather he was saying

that women are naturally more anxious

719

than men and rightly so, right?

720

Because the world does contain

more hazards for women.

721

Men tend to be stronger.

722

So for example, if I'm out in the

ocean and the waves are really big,

723

That's a bigger threat to me than it

would be for a man who, who is twice

724

as strong and more able to, to swim

and save himself than it would be

725

for me to walk down a dark alleyway.

726

It would be a greater risk for me.

727

The risk of harm would be greater than

it would be for a man because a possible

728

assailant will be more likely to be able

to overwhelm me than would for a man.

729

This is fairly natural for women

to be generally and naturally

730

more anxious than men because the

world does contain more threats.

731

But he said that what has deteriorated

recently is women's trust in

732

men's ability to, and willingness

to, protect them and save them.

733

That men's natural role is to reassure

women and to also set boundaries on that.

734

anxious, controlling behavior, and to

say, no you can't go around telling

735

people what not to do, or it's going

to be fine, don't worry about it.

736

And that, that women have started to

perceive men as much more inclined to

737

simply throw them under the bus in the

case of a risk and run for the hills

738

themselves without the burden of having

to protect their woman or their family.

739

It's a very sad book, but

also a very interesting one.

740

It, for sure, it resonates.

741

I, for sure, I thought, yeah, I

definitely see threads of this

742

in society and I blame fiat.

743

Tali: Yeah.

744

If we talk about the ability to provide,

and I'm going to try to link this to fiat.

745

So if you have a trusting relationship

and you have a stay at home mom, and you

746

have a husband who's working, who is a

hard worker and a good man, and whatever

747

people are doing in the banking system.

748

And the fiat system causes a

recession or, multiple recessions

749

and the man loses his job, right?

750

A lot of downsizing isn't happening

to people who are lazy or didn't try

751

very hard or just made bad choices.

752

A lot of downsizing is affecting

people who have done what they

753

believe is right and have worked hard.

754

And so you throw that job loss into

the family dynamic, and then you not

755

only lose faith in the system because

you know you've done the right

756

things, almost maybe unconsciously,

you start to lose faith that your

757

provider can consistently provide.

758

I wonder if that comes

in and plays a role.

759

Because of the number of recessions

that we've hit over the last several

760

decades, especially they're more

frequent , I, so I'll give an example.

761

We have a friend.

762

Her husband was an engineer and he

was downsized three times in a row.

763

Like he, he was downsized,

he found another job.

764

He was downsized again, found another

job, immediately was downsized again.

765

During that process, his wife

said, you know what, that's it.

766

We're not looking for

another engineering job.

767

We're done.

768

So they decided to go

and open a coffee house.

769

And that turned out to be very

successful, but it took a long time of

770

struggling for them to get that coffee

house up and running but it's that

771

idea of you can't trust the system.

772

And if your provider is part of this,

we are all part of the system, but if

773

your provider is part of the system,

then it's almost like I can't trust him.

774

Therefore I need to step up.

775

And of course they became a

dual in same business, but

776

two people are working, right?

777

Whereas before it was one person

working in the engineering job and

778

one was just a full time mom, but

they both had to step up to start this

779

business and got their kids involved.

780

And it became.

781

a matter of survival.

782

And I don't know if that plays into

the whole idea of like, I wonder what

783

their kids are saying to themselves,

maybe even subconsciously watching

784

that, you know, dad was providing,

then he wasn't able to provide, then

785

he was providing, then he wasn't.

786

And the mom had to step up.

787

And now it takes both of them

to provide, like, what message

788

are they telling themselves?

789

And what decisions might they make

differently because of what they witnessed

790

that contributes to that whole feminism

and the gender movement You know what?

791

I'm saying like if we

tie it all together in a

792

Holly: I see exactly, I, I can

see exactly what you're saying,

793

but that's a very special case.

794

But what I'm hearing is

absolutely beautiful.

795

I mean, this, this man,

I mean, What a hero!

796

And I could understand that that must be

psychologically very, very difficult for a

797

man and also for the woman that's got his

back and who's looking after the children,

798

to be downsized three times in a row.

799

But what you actually said was he was

downsized, then he tried again, and

800

then he was downsized, and then he tried

again, and then he was downsized again,

801

and he was willing to keep trying.

802

I mean, what a fighter!

803

And instead of giving up and thinking,

I can't do this, He's opened a new

804

business together with his partner who is

supporting him and helping him and that.

805

I mean, I think it can be a bit easy

to get stuck in a trap of thinking, I

806

don't know, negatively about men, but

I think that's also a very feminist.

807

way of thinking.

808

And, you know, it's not as if he's

failed to provide for his, his family.

809

I mean, I've been really blown away.

810

You know, I keep going

back to the fires here.

811

I think it's because they're

quite present in my mind.

812

But you know, when the fire was

really burning in the area close

813

to, to my home I could see it.

814

I could hear it.

815

I could smell it.

816

It looked, sounded, and

smelled like a monster.

817

It was terrifying.

818

And, you know, the fact that all these

guys were rushing out there to fight it.

819

Oh my God, you know, if

anybody has ever thought...

820

What's happened to, to the real

men, you know, put, put a crisis

821

out there and you see them.

822

I mean, these are the guys that

are now, they fought the fire.

823

These are the guys that are

chainsawing and clearing and

824

working on cleaning the land.

825

Today, I was at the land of a

family with two little kids and.

826

What I see is that both the mum and

the dad are all hands on deck with

827

the cleaning and the clearing, but

you know, it is quite beautiful to

828

see the dad stepping up to provide

a new home for the children, even

829

if it's not financial provision.

830

What he's doing is leveraging

his network to make sure that

831

his family is safe and secure.

832

I just think it goes very

deep and is very biological.

833

I do definitely see the fiat attack

on that, and the way that men can be

834

undermined, but actually I think that

recession is just one form of crisis,

835

and just like in the wildfires, you

know, then you do see this instinct

836

to protect and provide coming out

actually quite quite clearly, you know?

837

Tali: a long time ago.

838

I came across this book called Raising

Boys and it talked about how boys were

839

not allowed to be boys anymore from the

time they're very little and It's like

840

they're being taught to be girls But

also be boys, but not really like their

841

dad kind of thing, like you can't use

physical action to resolve something.

842

You don't hit the other boy or the other

child, you come to the mom or the teacher.

843

It sounds logical because obviously we

don't want school fights, but every time

844

we tell them they can't resolve something

that we need somebody else to step in,

845

we're taking away their sense of power.

846

Holly: Yeah, and also I would add to that

that given that mums obviously are all

847

women and teachers are overwhelmingly

women What's interestingly happening there

848

is that they're being taught not only are

you not allowed to resolve that problem?

849

You've got to turn to a woman that

the problem has to be resolved in a

850

feminine And in a feminine paradigm.

851

So, I mean, the levels of that message

are just mind blowing and very scary.

852

And couple that with the idea of

toxic masculinity, which is kind

853

of propagated by God knows who

It's mind blowing, it really is.

854

Tali: yeah we can talk about it all

day long cause I've got like so much

855

more stuff to say, . I want to ask

you about what you mentioned before

856

in terms of what you're doing now.

857

You said you're doing something

that is terrorism prevention.

858

What is that and how do you do that?

859

Holly: so that was my previous

incarnation, that was my

860

pre Bitcoin incarnation.

861

So I was working as a researcher

for various non profit organizations

862

and basically they worked

on a kind of project basis.

863

We looked at, we worked a lot with

people who have been terrorists

864

and stepped out of the world of

terrorism, shall we put it like that?

865

radical groups.

866

We worked a lot with professionals

who come into contact with young

867

people who would be considered to be

vulnerable to becoming radicalized.

868

And we did it just by looking at

psychological factors and social factors

869

and all kinds of other factors which

can influence radicalization and.

870

factors which can influence

the exit from radicalization.

871

It was a fascinating job.

872

I do think that I am still proud of

what I achieved within that, that job.

873

I do think we helped some families

and family comes very, very

874

high on my list of priorities.

875

So I'm really proud to

be able to say that.

876

On the other hand, I also think that

governments have stuck their noses

877

in to families far too deeply and

their long sticky fingers, especially

878

during Corona and it resonated

less and less with my mindset.

879

So now at the moment I'm working on a

really exciting new initiative, which I

880

don't want to say too much about, but I'm

really genuinely very excited about it.

881

Can't wait to get it off the ground.

882

So in, in Portugal, I've been just

kind of doing my own little thing,

883

pottering around, trying to educate

people a bit about Bitcoin and how to

884

transact and save in Bitcoin, giving

information sessions here and there.

885

This has had a lovely snowball effect.

886

So I've become known as.

887

A person who knows a little bit

about Bitcoin, I would never call

888

myself an expert, I never have

called myself an expert on anything.

889

And I don't think I ever will, but

somebody who has enough information to be

890

able to help people get some first steps.

891

So, that's had the lovely effect of

having people start to contact me

892

to, to ask if they have questions.

893

And so, so some of my kickboxing buddies,

for example, Have invited me for a Bitcoin

894

chat and we've discussed what money is

and why our current system is Messed up.

895

I nearly swore on your podcast.

896

I'm not going to What we can do

about it how we can opt out We've

897

been talking a lot about circular

economies, so one of the things I

898

feel really passionate about doing

is orange pilling the merchants in my

899

neighbourhood, with whom I transact a lot.

900

So for example, my daughter's surf

teacher I can now pay for her surf lessons

901

in Bitcoin, I can pay to have my hair

cut in Bitcoin, I can pay my dentist.

902

Not that I orange pilled him,

he was already well orange

903

pilled before, before I met him.

904

But my beef producer, the lady

who makes the lovely face creams

905

that I use, etc, etc, etc.

906

Those are the people that I feel very

passionate about orange peeling and

907

starting a circular economy with.

908

And also starting a community with,

amongst whom, issues like gender issues,

909

and what fiat does to community, and

what fiat does to women, and what fiat

910

does to, to our social interactions.

911

these things can be discussed.

912

So I've been feeling very passionate

about setting that up, but I've also

913

been feeling a bit limited in my efforts.

914

I'm obviously I'm only one person.

915

And I think I'm looking at a way

to scale up and to export the whole

916

blueprint, as it were, to communities

where that could be of immense value.

917

And so I'm, I'm now working with a

former colleague of mine, actually,

918

from the terrorism prevention world,

who's now also discovered Bitcoin and

919

fallen absolutely down the rabbit hole.

920

So I'm getting excited texts at

like three o'clock in the morning

921

saying, Hey, do you know what the

banking system has done to us?

922

And so on and so forth.

923

So it's very exciting to work with

somebody else who's, who's quite

924

passionate about it all and who has an

amazing network in the human rights field.

925

So definitely looking into a very

exciting new initiative there.

926

Tali: That sounds really awesome.

927

Okay, so last question.

928

Bitcoin?

929

Holly: get off the fence.

930

I would say that women have a

bit of a tendency to think that

931

finances are a man's world.

932

I think that that's a shame, a missed

opportunity in spite of the fact that

933

communications around Bitcoin can be

a little bit masculine in their form.

934

We were talking about exactly

that before you started recording,

935

and I love this initiative.

936

Don't be intimidated by it.

937

It's so important.

938

It's so important.

939

It's going to have an impact on you

and your family and your future.

940

I would say, Start learning, get involved

whichever way you can, and don't make the

941

mistake of thinking, this is a man's world

and I'm going to leave it up to my man.

942

Because we all need this.

943

We all need to know about this.

944

It's really important.

945

It's really important.

946

Tali: All right.

947

Thank you so much, Holly.

948

It was wonderful to chat with you

and my best wishes to that new

949

initiative that you are rolling out.

950

And I can't wait to hear about it.

951

Thank you again for joining us today.

952

Holly: Thank you so

much for the invitation.

953

It's been a real pleasure

to talk with you.

954

I've, I've really enjoyed it.

955

And yeah, I'd love to come

back and tell you more about

956

it when we're up and running.