"In Germany, you’d never see a timber frame left out in the rain." 

That’s just one of the eye-opening differences we uncovered with Daniel Jakobs, a master carpenter and construction engineer from Germany, on the Mindful Builder Podcast. Dan has spent over 20 years in high-performance, ecological construction, and now serves as Technical Sales Manager for pro clima® in Australia and New Zealand. If you’ve ever met him, you know he’s got a world-class hipster beard, a great sense of humour, and the rare ability to make building science fun.

Dan shares what sets European building standards apart, from meticulous prefabrication and weatherproofing to the absolute importance of ventilation for healthy, durable homes.

Discover why protecting timber, getting back to basics with tools, and prioritising proper airflow are non-negotiables for future-ready construction. 

Australia has the talent and the tools; now it’s about raising our standards. That means learning from the best of Europe, investing in better methods, and refusing to settle for more relaxed standards. For new apprentices and seasoned builders alike, it’s about being open to new ideas, looking after your craft, and building homes that are healthy, durable, and genuinely fit for the future.

👇 CHAPTER MARKERS 👇

00:00 Introduction 

01:08 Special Offers and Promotions

01:53 Exciting News and Announcements

02:04 pro clima® Sponsorship

05:12 The Future of Building

05:47 Dan Jakobs Background and Journey

06:15 Building Practices in Germany

08:09 Challenges in Australian Building

21:42 Treated Timber and Building Materials

26:43 Challenges and Opportunities in Prefabrication

28:03 Small Scale Prefab: A Practical Approach

30:57 The Importance of Timber Quality and Sustainability

32:06 Education and Training in Carpentry

39:22 Innovations in Timber Products

42:52 Addressing Mould and Moisture in Construction

44:15 Encouraging Better Building Practices

52:12 Tips for Apprentices and Industry Professionals

58:43 Conclusion

LINKS:

https://proclima.com.au/

Connect with us on Instagram:   @themindfulbuilderpod

Connect with Hamish:

Instagram:  @sanctumhomes

Website:   www.yoursanctum.com.au/

Connect with Matt: 

Instagram: @carlandconstructions

Website:  www.carlandconstructions.com/

Ever feel like there's a better way to build?

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Thank you so much for being part of our community.

We truly appreciate you.

And now onto this week's episode.

If you want me, I can actually connect with the only dancer only.

20. So, and half now 25% off the only dance account.

Oh, we have a, it's actually, it's actually Air Boss Dan

doing his, uh, profu install.

We have a special code.

I was talking

about moisture management, honestly, how to ventilate.

You carry, properly, get, get,

oh God, I God.

So 25% of his OnlyFans account.

Only Dans.

Only Dans.

Only Dans.

And he actually installs pro climber with his top off.

Only Dan account.

Yeah.

Maybe ladies who 60 plus.

They might enjoy it.

Definitely not in Bo.

Not in Bondi and Coogee.

'cause if you don't have a hardcore six pack, you have no chance.

No one would even look at you.

Oh my God.

We've got

some exciting

news.

Hamish.

Yes.

You go.

Oh you, yeah.

You've got exciting news.

We've got exciting news.

Well you, we've got exciting news about us, about us.

Oh, tell me more about it.

Oh,

you tell me more.

Matt Pro Climber and now the official major sponsor of Pro,

the Mindful Builder Podcast.

We're now, we're

now coming from, uh, the unofficial official pro climber studio.

Yes, because we have a whole bunch of pro climber stuff behind us.

It was just

by chance for recording out of performance membranes.

And they're not the only distributor, they're shotgun group.

There's.

Ice Smart.

We, Shaw.

Shelton.

Shelton.

Shelton.

Shelton.

Shelton.

Group Climate.

Shaw Rescue.

We've got PHCP down in Ts.

Michael Lim.

Michael Lim.

Michael

Lim.

Lim Builder.

Is that in,

um,

Don?

They

official?

No, no, no, no.

Um, you've got, who else have you got?

You got Brian.

Brian.

Oh, Brian.

Yeah.

Yeah.

We have Roger.

Then we got chess in South Australia.

Yep.

Yep.

CL Shore and we got Kho and then we got two up north and.

Izzy.

Oh, nice.

The Brisbane

ones.

It's a growing market.

Yeah.

Just Dan on names.

It's terrible.

I know them pretty well, David, and like, you know them really well

listening be super disappointed.

Anyway, John Barrett and David's, um,

sorry, but pro climber coming on for us is huge.

Yep.

Um, we're both super excited.

I think we're, um, part of the deal is we're gonna be traveling.

You don't even know this, Dan.

Um, we are gonna be doing an event down in, um, Sydney.

Tasie, south Australia, Brisbane, and most likely Perth, maybe down

in Margaret River, apparently.

Apparently.

That is a, that is an area that is growing for passive fast products, apparently.

Yeah.

I had a few

training done there.

It's beautiful.

It is.

I was just down there the start of the year before we had our

little girl, and there are some.

The wineries.

We were already out to 2:00 AM the other morning, Dan.

We don't need to be.

Hey.

Yeah, yeah.

I'm just gonna say that

this whole pro climber thing has nothing to do with going out and getting booed.

All right.

It doesn't.

So this is about, so look, we, it's just a lucky

coincidence.

We,

we, obviously, Matt and I have been using pro climber products

before, I don't know, 2018, 2019.

Um, and when we were.

I guess pitching people for sponsorships for this, um, for this podcast, pro

climber was always up at the top and so we're both pretty excited to, to have

them on board and, and you know, see the, hopefully we can all grow together and

a hundred percent, I know that we didn't do much in the past.

'cause in the beginning we sponsored a few people, individuals, and

then it didn't turn out very well, like a lot of promises.

And then we actually stopped it completely.

And, but we actually create a good relationship over the years with

podcasts and trainings and presentations.

Yeah, whatever.

Yeah.

We did a few stuff

with my house and it turned out pretty well.

So I think that was a bit of a, a try before you buy for us Aim.

Yeah.

And, um, but I think we're, we're, it, it we're both incentivized.

Like we want to grow this podcast to areas that you guys are also trying to

grow into because we've, we live in our bit of our Melbourne bubble sometimes, so

getting out and doing some events and, um.

Linking with other people and showcasing what can be done.

Um, we've used it forever and we are very familiar with the

product and we talk big words and

it's not a hard, it's not a hard sell.

It's not, it's not a hard sell.

I mean, it's probably a good, um, kind of segue into what we're

gonna be talking about today.

Dan, we've obviously had you on before.

I think they ended up being a two part episode, didn't it?

'cause we just kept talking.

Yeah.

Um, I think the topic today is the future of building.

Like where, where is the Yeah.

The topic.

Yeah.

Where the industry is going here in Australia because.

Let's face it, we're pretty behind, you know, and I'd, I'd like to hear

it from your side because you did your training in Germany and now you've

come to Australia and probably for a long time are hitting your head against

a wall of how we've been building.

So before we get into that, people, for people who just the

future almost

exactly for people who don't know you.

Who are

you?

Um, yeah.

Hi, uh, I'm Dan.

I'm originally from Munich, Germany.

Uh, I'm a German master carpenter construction engineer, which I think will

lead us straight into the first topic.

Um, my main background is definitely carpentry.

Like some people would say also old school carpentry in Germany.

Uh, like Joe, get in your mouth.

So it's like old school carpentry back in Germany.

It's a like, really, like I did lots of retrofitting and new builds.

Um.

So it means kind of pre-cutting all roof structures completely by

hand, so you don't go on site and bring out your chainsaw or so and

cut things together, so you just use your screw gun or your nail gun.

That's it.

So you don't cut pieces of timber,

you don't over in Europe, you're not cutting on site?

No.

Just if you, oh, we can say it here.

Just if you fuck it up, then you bring out the chainsaw.

Yeah.

But usually no you shouldn't.

'cause otherwise you get in trouble.

And is it so, so just just to go

back to that, because I'm curious about this.

So what you're saying is you are pre-cutting any controlled environment.

Yes.

By

machine or by human.

Now by machine.

But my apprenticeship, how I learned it, because I was in a pretty old school

carpentry business, um, I really, we had to cut everything by hand, which is the

best work at all because like, I think I said it in a previous, um, podcast, like

a normal raft in Germany's lung, 160 by a hundred or 200 by a hundred millimeters.

Yep.

And it's eight to 10 meters long, so they're pretty heavy.

So you really, is that why you've got big biceps?

Oh, it's so big.

It's massive.

Not if you would think about my old boss, like he was even skinnier than me,

but he was strong as a beast, honestly.

Like unbelievable.

So you don't see, very often you don't see the strength because

you're not big and bulky because like hidden strength, I would

say.

So like condition, condition, strength.

Yeah.

So it means kind of the prefab, which is not prefab, how would you call it?

Because like you precut all the roof structure at your place.

And most times we actually had to do it outside too

because like, uh, that's how we

do it.

We've gotta cut our rafters outside.

Yeah.

Now,

but it's just like in one day and everything has to be cut.

And then you ship it inside.

Yeah.

So it stays dry.

And is it, was it uh, cut.

Outside 'cause it was so long.

Yes.

Yeah.

And like as I said before, like it was a pretty small carpentry business, so

it means kind of, it was an old farm, uh, um, it was an old farm, so we had

to do it outside because if you have eight, 10 meter long rafters and a normal

beam is like 10, 15, 20 meters long.

So you need a, you need a big warehouse to actually work in.

Yeah.

So big car trees, of course, they work completely inside.

So we had to adjust to the weather to, you

used use like a Makita battery saw.

Yeah, exactly.

And a hand saw.

Um, so, but that's a, because you just spoke about retrofits and new builds.

Yeah.

I feel like a retrofit, you'd have to cut more on site.

Yeah.

So a retrofit is something fundamentally different than you build.

So like I know like a lot of people asking us, okay, hey Proclaimer guys,

when are you doing more on retrofit?

And it's actually a really important topic, but we have to stop building

new shitty buildings first and then we can focus on retrofitting buildings.

But we've also, not every building should be a new builder.

We've got seven, is it seven to 9 million existing building stock?

Yeah.

They have to be touched.

We've also gotta hit

that.

Market.

Having said that, well, it's, it's multi-pronged though.

You need to stop, you need to stop building shit, and you

need to fix up the old shit.

Yeah.

It's also, so we wanna

create, first we wanna stop creating new retrofittable buildings for the future.

Yeah, yeah,

yeah.

And, and because like also, so should, should we start calling, um, or, um,

should we start calling like Buil homes?

Just retrofit projects?

Future retrofit projects.

Future retrofit projects?

Yeah, sure.

Yeah.

That was actually not funny to be honest, because as.

I see quite a lot going around having side visits, and you hear a lot.

It's actually a pretty sad story.

I think we all agree, isn't it?

Um, like one of my flatmates, she's a, um, a doctor who killed children

and an emergency in Sydney and like, unbelievable how many kids she got with

asthma attacks and stuff like this.

And like, would she come

on the podcast and talk about that?

Uh, I don't think so because she's not specialized on asthma.

So she does in general.

Um.

We will get general practice.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, but like, and she just got someone in, like two kids in the Northern,

they're actually my neighbors.

And she says, oh, I just got two kids in with Heavy AS asthma and super nice.

I talk with them all the time.

So it's, yeah, it's crazy.

Like how many kids and all the people and adults actually suffering from bad

air conditions and new as an old build.

But the question is, when people come to you to use your

membranes, it's what's the cost?

Oh yeah, of course.

You know what?

Before, before we, before we get there,

um, you had to

run already five to 10 topics.

Yeah, we have, we have, we have.

So, so you, you're German.

German carpenter.

Um,

how'd you end up in Australia?

Good question.

Um, I tried the first time 2013 with Mike's girlfriend back

then, and then we separated and she was more like settling down.

I had a feeling, oh, the world's still waiting for me, so I

just really rode once a v.

And adjustment to Proclaimer on a trade show in Munich and it was actually

Stuttgart means, uh, roof and timber.

Yep.

It's a pretty cool trade show to be honest, and as I Hey guys, I would

like to work for you in Australia.

Would you be interested?

Is that right?

You exactly The idiot we have been waiting for.

Nah, that's not what Lotto said.

And they're still saying that right now.

Why did we hire that idea?

So yeah, all caught up, uh, with Thomas Munich and, and then actually supposed

to go to Australia and started Australian business, uh, with other guys in 2016.

And then we started to, uh, build a training center in Auckland.

And then Lotus said like, oh, I think we should go to Auckland

first and build a training center.

And then I stopped and said, okay, I had enough from traveling.

'cause I always wanted to work on off.

I didn't, I never wanted to live permanently in Australia.

'cause I have my social circle in Germany and family and France.

Yeah.

So it's more like, uh, that out of this perspective and yeah.

And then 2019, Thomas caught me again and then.

He's actually, uh, the founder of Proclaim Australia.

C Yeah.

Yeah.

Works together.

I think you asked him also to be on the podcast.

Yeah.

Isn't did, how did

you know about that?

What'd I tell you?

The other morning at whatever time it was.

Yeah.

So, um, he might be interested because like the way how he started

is actually a pretty cool story.

Yeah.

So I think that's kind of intensive why he started it.

It's pretty awesome.

Um, it's definitely worthwhile

because you've also got the CEO of pro climber coming over.

Oh, like the, you all know.

Yeah.

Next year.

Yeah.

Yeah, he's coming out.

I don't know, I don't know if Loda would be into it 'cause he's 68 and pretty cool.

But, um,

his mind works different in our minds on a, in my opinion, a positive way

because Iria talk a lot with him and have a good contact with him.

But it's funny, like if you really know the whole feedback of

Proclaim, which he will hear more about when you interview Thomas.

It's Yeah.

Interesting.

Because yours was around 10 steps ahead.

Anyone said like, no way.

No way.

And it was always ahead, but that's what's so interesting.

Yeah.

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Is, um, is pro Climber privately owned?

Yes.

Okay.

So

like a privately owned by lot mall, the founders a lot Mall came out,

has nothing to do with me, but I think it's an interesting story.

Um, lot Mall actually, uh, grew into a, a Sawmill family.

Okay.

Near man Manheim, Frankfurt, Germany, and, but he never wanted to step

into it, so he started Timber Tim engineer in Rosenheim too.

And then he started this whole thing.

So he got 50,000 German mark back then from his father and said,

okay, start your own business.

And then the saw mill was worth millions and millions and millions.

So it was a pretty small cut, more or less because he was always interested

and orient in healthy buildings.

We talk about the seventies, eighties.

So in all the hippies, like he was like this kind of guy who goes, I

know some of the background stories.

Oh, have been talking and so yeah, we have to do change this and that.

And then arguing and he was, come on, let's get to a point here.

What's happening here?

So he was always like, not radical, but like spot on the guys.

We have to agree now.

Yeah.

So he started the first building ecological supermarket in Europe.

So it's called the building biological island.

And the bus station is still called building biological

island and the mold group.

And so you start with insulation, with paint because back then you just have to

remember like paint have been offgassing and most of the INS, installations,

timber treatment, big issue also like all the stuff sold, how to protect

timber, how to work with timber.

All the knowledge actually had to come, come from somewhere.

Then insulation was a big one.

Um, wood fiber and not much wood fiber, cellulose and cheap oil.

And then after a while we realized, oh, we have to hold insulation place.

And then he actually, um, developed a reinforced paper right as the same scri

as the intel layer, it's called DB Plus.

And this was actually the first official proclaim product.

Then we realized, okay, we need a glue.

And we always, oh, from the beginning we said like, we

can't use any synthetic glues.

And then know like the stories when they tried it, it was a big mess,

so everyone hated to work with it.

So at some point we came up with the first tape, which our thing is equal

code, but I'm not a hundred percent sure.

And then some point, um, the senate of the materials of the

paper-based material to frown hofer.

And then

you can't see some video, just not be seat and just slowly see down.

Unexpected, um, yeah.

Right.

It's good to have air rights.

Yes.

In Australians, on Australian roads.

I wish they would have in my car.

Yeah, just hit the curb with my car yesterday gave,

because like the speed bump,

so this is off topic.

So off topic in, I was in pro climb last week and I go down to

that car park and so big car park who's right out the front there.

The, the first car park, like the CEO car park, it's Dan in his orange Mustang.

No, maybe we have to edit it out.

Um, so of, uh, so long story short, we sent the DB plus of the paper-based

product to Fho Institute and we just got different results over and over again.

So, so this,

this is a testing institute to test, to test.

What were you testing?

Fho for Institute is the same like you see as io.

Okay.

So we just tried to test the vapor permeability.

We talk about the eighties, nineties here.

Yep.

And then we realized in the mid nineties, then we realized we're

getting different results all the time.

And then the Frow Hofer Institute realized, oh, interesting.

The paper changes is changing.

Its paper permeability based on the humidity inside of the

structure and inside of the room.

And this was actually when the intel was born.

So that was a mistake by mistake.

Yeah.

And we invented more or less the technology, which was later,

um, used for the internal layer.

So it's intelligent.

So you've, you've set the market for an intelligent membrane across the world.

More or less it still, like Fran Hofer patented it.

It was more or less we, by mistake, invented it.

Fran Hofer actually realized what's going on together with

Proclaimer, but they patented it.

That's a bit dodgy.

Yeah.

So they sold a patent.

Patent, or not, they didn't sell it, but they sold a license to San Kaba, which is

like, like seas are just bigger in Europe.

It's like go live and Proclaimer like.

10, 15 people, 20 people.

And Lotto went to court against ABA and he won.

And then two years later we brought out the inte products.

They sued us again.

Lotto won again and Lotto on the end because like the difference of the

company, you couldn't imagine like program maybe made 5 million a year and Sanbar

a multi-billion dollar company like.

Huge.

And we won against him and he like put a big sup world and played from, um, queen.

We are the champion in court.

So that's what Loda is.

He's like really sneaky, but he really understands the game and that's how

we actually involve the products, like the soli tech sport products too.

So I just wanna just go back quickly to the intel, like the, I guess

the, the timeline of the intel.

So originally, um, this membrane was used to hold insulation in Yes.

At what point did they go, hang on a minute.

We need to start thinking about vapor permeability and, and air tightness.

Air.

So air, air

tightness was also important because we didn't realize relatively quickly,

um, that you definitely want to prevent the insulation from air washing.

Wind washing, yeah.

Yep, yep.

And air tightness back then was actually mainly on the inside, not on the

outside, because back then we still had vi two IC paper on the roofs, so you

had to ventilate, which goes back to.

A conversation with Reha and a few other guys online when we talked about warm

roof and a cold roof, and back then German roofs always have been a cold

roof, always have been a cold roof.

Because as you had a vapor barrier on the outside of your roof structure, you had

to ventilate 40 millimeters underneath.

Yeah.

So you ventilate the insulation layer.

And when we gimme some kind of timeline

here, what, what, what, when are we?

Eighties.

Eighties, okay.

Eighties.

Okay.

So, so there's a little, a

little, little Dan running around.

So

I was way before

my time.

The reason why I wanted you to say the eighties is that we are currently

sitting in 2025 and ventilated cavities have just become cool.

Yeah, that's 50 years ago.

It's crazy.

I just

wonder like DB Plus had 30 years, so it's actually 95.

95. Yeah.

Even so 30 years ago.

Yep.

Yeah.

Okay.

Alright.

Carry.

And that Instagram's

caught up

now.

Yeah.

So should your cavities be treated pine or not treated?

Pine,

let's not go down there.

No.

Because he's got a very strong opinion on this.

No, he did and he didn't get to say it in our.

Rest didn't.

Yeah.

So the thing

is like, we can trust which, which cross chu which,

which, which pathway are we going down now?

All of 'em.

All of,

okay.

I just, uh, throw out the official statements.

You've,

you've got, you've got two minutes to explain your, uh, opinion on

tree to pine versus at pine bat.

So,

so just, just for a bit of context, um, we, with a group of other experts have

a monthly, uh, conversation, let's call it, called beer and building science.

And the first topic that we covered was treated pine or non-treated

pine cavity battens and battens.

And off the back of that, there was some commentary around, um, potentially.

You know, the, um, the treatment in the treat of pine impacting the membranes.

Yes.

So that's just a bit of a background.

And then we had a conversation a couple of weeks ago about that.

Yeah.

And, um, I think unapologetically I said to you, well, I think it's a

good thing that we've kind of thrown.

You guys under the bus now that you've gotta try and figure out

what the fuck's going on here.

So, 'cause I know there was a lot of people that were

asking performance membranes.

Oh yeah, a hundred percent.

What should we be?

How many people

did you have call up about this?

Um, I'm not very in the service at the moment because I was hiding behind the

cameras over the last weeks because, uh, did lots of filming well last week.

So I wasn't directly involved.

I was definitely more Justin and Devin here.

Yeah.

And our customer service.

Yeah.

But we definitely put an official statement together.

Which whoever wants to know, you can ask Devvin or Justin.

Yep.

Um, the thing, it's like using a long story short, it's like

using pre code compliant.

Uh, you just have to let them air dry for at least seven days and also like

history based like New Zealand inserting, using LSP treatment for 20 years plus

when we haven't had a single recall.

Okay.

Yeah.

So,

so in summary, you can,

you can use it.

I still wouldn't use it because I personally try to

stay away of treated timber.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, but, but I guess in like, just to simplify things, the treated products,

LOSP or H three treated timber pine, as long as they're off guests Yep.

Should be fine.

Yep.

So, so we, we want, we want to put 'em somewhere, let 'em

do their thing for a minute.

You don't really want to get it.

Cut it coming outta the factory.

No.

Straight onto site and put it on your No, it can't be.

So how about if you

rip your battens in half and then you spray the two ends?

That needs to set for a few days too?

I guess so.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's usually when LSP treatments most times your pressure treatment.

Yeah.

So, but that's actually a brand statement, so it's not like that we make it up.

So it's a statement by brands.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So you gonna put the number on it and what brand approval it is?

I'm just trying to find it, but I can't see it here.

So you are so.

Because it's a conversation I kind of wanted to also touch on.

In Germany, you don't use chemical treatment.

You use pressure treated of other sorts.

No, we don't treat the or steam you steam press it or something.

There's just one way where you could use it, but in general you

completely stay away with it.

So like we did lots of chemical treatments in the 80.

Seventies, but it's more or less completely banned.

So as we try in Australia, most of the times to get away with chemical

treatments, we say like we talk about constructional treatment.

So we actually, um.

Work with timber means install timber, so you don't need to chemical treat it.

So it means kind of fresh all to the ground.

For example, certain application methods.

Still, we have different conditions here.

We, so it's very important we not just copy everything 1 0 1.

Yeah.

We have high amenities here in Australia.

We have something called termites.

Um, but most of the times you're quite fine with H two treatment, isn't it?

Yep.

So it means kind of, it's, uh, bux and the other.

But you just forgot it.

So it's actually not only bad, to be honest.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So the LOSP, they like organic solvents.

That's the nasty stuff.

It's more or less petro.

Okay.

So, okay, so treated timber is fine, but you just need to be mindful of

when you are using it, when you're putting it on, and the conditions

that you are putting it in.

Yeah, it should be definitely kind of dry.

Yep.

Yeah.

So the actual timber product wants to dry.

Yes.

So you order it a week before, put it on your site, let it sit there, dry it out,

would be a very safe way to go about it.

Yep, yep, yep.

So I'm

actually just thinking right now that we have up until recently

been using H three treated plinth boards that we are ripping in half.

They're quite usually can be wet sometimes and they're usually quite wet.

Yeah.

So

it takes a long time.

You have to see like if you have a closed look, what's happening.

So you have to sell.

So you normally try to dry the timber.

Then you pressure treated.

Um, and it means actually you lock the cells of the, of the timber.

So yeah, it takes more time for the timber to dry out.

So I think we definitely should give the timber time to dry out.

So I would personally say that go down to 15% of below, but we know that no one,

not everyone has like a moisture sensor.

Yeah.

Blocks.

I

think.

I think, you know what, I think there is just being aware of this now,

like, you know, hopefully there's people listening to this now that.

Might just be, they might just take that little bit of extra

care, thinking about when they're actually getting material to site.

Um, they might store it in a rack somewhere, cover it

up, let it dry for a minute.

Bulk order your timber at frame stage that you're gonna be

using for your treated pine.

Let it sit there.

Yes.

And then you, then, then throw it on.

I think it's just about, just slightly tweaking the way

that you are doing things.

Yeah.

And if you wanna avoid it, just avoid it.

Yeah.

So I avoid it.

So I don't want to go down that path.

The treated pine thing, just wondering.

We just, we've cleaned it up for them.

I think it's wonder

for the audience.

I think we chomped like 10 topics and we have, we have.

So, so I

guess I want to get, because we are gonna talk about the future building.

So seventies, eighties, nineties, right.

People are thinking about better building.

How do we manage moisture?

How do we, you know, manage, how do we stop wind washing

in our, um, in our insulation?

This is all happening while Australia's going through massive booms of buildings.

You know, we've got, and low energy costs a very important at low, low,

low, yeah, true low energy cost too, so it doesn't cost that much

to heat and cool your building.

So it doesn't really matter if you're building leaky, you

know, unins out buildings.

So.

Your experience coming from Australia, like what was one of the f what,

what's your first thoughts about the buildings that you are seeing here?

A funny thing is, I just told this story somewhere, I think the first time

when I came to Australia and I saw a timber structure sitting in the rain.

I think I was staying there in the rain for five minutes and really just looking

at the structure and not, I couldn't make it up how someone would actually.

Just store a structure in the rain.

So that's how it felt like to me like, 'cause like in most parts of

Europe, if there's a rain cloud coming, there's just running and yelling

nothing else until it's covered up.

So timber doesn't get, as timber structures, they don't get wet at all.

End of story.

If you have a problem next day, you can be sure that the house owner or the potential

or the future house owner will stay there with Thelen, uh, with the lawyer.

Wow.

Yeah.

Even if you don't have a damage, but it means kind of like timber

structures, they don't get wet.

End of story.

Is that why

everything's prefabrication?

To limit that risk.

Yes, of course.

So really, and like,

I can't even remember when we actually didn't build prefab in this case, because

the roof, as in timber structure wise, because bricks of course, brick by

brick by brick, and that's what it is.

But usually back then you put the roof on, you cover the roof, and

then you just let it sit over winter.

So usually you just let it dry out over winter.

And when, when we talk prefab, we're not talking, a whole house

is being plunked on a site.

We're talking components almost.

So it might be the roof R.

Think of trusses.

Trusses are a prefabricated method of building.

It's little parts of the building.

Yeah.

That then you essentially put together like Lego to then

build.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

And I think that's probably the issue with prefabrication.

We think here, we think on a huge level, say a sips or a carbon light or a full

house, um, or a drop in pod, there are.

I, it's, I think where the pre prefabrication Australia would take

off is the tiny component methods and little bits along the way.

So in a house you wanna have 15 prefabricated methods.

I think like

when we talk about whole houses, it would, as, in my opinion,

it wouldn't make sense to, um.

Precut, all the stutts and everything else.

So it definitely would at least penalize.

Yeah, I think like that's a good middle way that you're penalize, you put your WB

layer on on the outside because you know you have your half a year resistance.

That's,

that's probably a good, um, distinction to, to make.

So prefabrication in my opinion is something that is just,

you know, it's plug and play.

Yeah.

It's coming on a truck.

It's going in the connected together.

It's good to go.

Yeah.

Panelized construction on the other hand is the actual panels.

Yeah.

So sips, as you said, carbon light, like a prefabricated 6, 10 84 frame.

Like, I think that's the future

specifically.

Like, because like most, I just wonder if we talked about it last time.

Um, but like, 'cause people talk about prefe, ah, Australia's not ready.

And then also it's difficult for us as a builder, um, you don't wanna give away too

much responsibility for multiple reasons.

So I think like small scale prefab is actually where we're gonna talk about it.

Everyone can actually do his own prefab without massive costs.

Yeah.

So like think about a system like, and I'll use sips for example.

Yep.

Is you have your sips come, it's already got your membrane

maybe adhered to it already.

Yeah.

So as they get craned on, you're just jumping up and screwing it together.

Taping it off.

Yep.

And that's the method that we start with.

And then we, you can't have your electrical prefabricated.

We can't have the plumbing prefabricated.

Or pro run.

Yeah.

Yeah, you of course you could.

But the thing is kind of, if you really go like full prefab or modular systems, like

you need really, really good planning.

Yeah.

And, and also huge factory because then you have multiple traits working together.

If you just, like, you have one spot where you cut your framing

and then you just nail your frame together, nail screw together.

You put a USB board on, you put your WB layer on, you flip it,

you put insulation on, you put in teller, on beds, on, on both sides.

That's your panel.

Yeah.

Like a carbon life.

Yeah.

But I, I'd even argue that if you are, if you're considering doing it yourself,

just do it with the external membrane on.

There was

my next, there was my next point.

Exactly.

'cause

I, I kind of feel like that is not hard to come at.

I, I actually don't understand why the SIPS panels don't come pre.

Membrane.

We, we, I've talked about this with Dave before.

That's Yeah, there are, there are some, there are some kind of logistical reasons.

Okay.

And we, we've, we have talked about doing it before and we've kind of run

some numbers on sticking it here on it.

'cause that's probably what you're

doing.

But that's what, but to me that's what makes the sense.

Like that's how we, that's how as a society, especially when we look at

the, the lower hanging fruit of say, um.

Uh, the volume builder industry or as you recall, nor you say it, Dan,

the future of the retrofit market.

Yeah.

The, we need to the future retrofit

market.

So Retrofittable buildings.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So we need to create a system that is like around the building, go around the

building once, because at the end of the day, it's labor that costs the money.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And we, I think we haven't talked about health because when we

talk about the building codes and we talk about mold Yeah.

And mold index of three.

Uh, it means kind of, we may more or less, we can't have any visible mode

anymore in our timber structures.

So how do you wanna prevent your structure of getting moldy?

Even it's just your bottom plate or anything else.

If you don't cover it up immediately and in a stick frame, you have to be

realistic, specifically in Melbourne.

'cause you never have rain here.

Never.

And it's never, it hasn't rain for the past month.

Yeah, past five minutes.

And, and then it's mainly on the calendar too, so, you know,

it always rains Saturday and Sunday so you can cover it up.

Yeah.

So it means actually mold is not an issue in Melbourne.

If it would be, how can you prevent malts on your structure?

So just,

just for those listening, Dan's actually been sarcastic.

I know it's probably a little bit hard to kind of tell because if he's German,

I know I have a pretty stupid sarcasm, but

yeah.

So can I ask you a question?

So at the moment we've got a, um, and I don't know if you know the

answer to this, uh, hardwood timber.

Do you think that's more, um, or less susceptible to mold?

Most of the times, yes.

But, um, how sustainable is hardwood because it usually grow, um, significantly

lower than actually softwood.

Yeah.

And I think also like in Australia, we shut down most

of the hardwood for sustain.

Yeah.

So it means it will come over from, most likely from South America.

Yep.

Um, so as much as I like it, but I'm more like the person, when I

see someone chucking out hardwood.

Because of retrofitting a building, I get it built something.

Oh no, we're the same.

So, um, it's

almost like, um, when you, with the hardware, we are just shipping

the problem somewhere else.

Like, it's like, oh, we're not gonna knock it down here, wipe our hands clean,

but let's import it from somewhere else.

No, we could go deep.

The rabbit, how, how actually hardwood or like eucalyptus is

actually harvested in South America.

Oh, I don't wanna even know.

No.

So

it's quite easy.

You cut on rainforest and you, I guess the point is, what I was making is

like different, different timbers behave differently in, in certain conditions.

And that's the thing, that's something that as a, a carpenter, you're not

taught about timber in Australia.

Yeah.

Which like, because like in the last episode, which I guess will

come before when you had Devon.

Yeah.

You talked about like the education system having apprentice, and that's

also part of the education system.

The first year when you apprenticeship in Germany, you spent full time

at school, which sounds crazy.

I think that's

when you spoke about that last time, I was just like, poof.

Like.

Mind blown.

Yeah, and also like, because you need to be a master carpenter, start a cabinetry

business, you need to have like your train trainer license, which is a fixed part of

your, of your exams, of your final exam.

It doesn't mean that you're going to be better or know better, but at

least you have some fundamentals.

We just got off the track.

But I think, I don't, I don't think, I think education is an important part.

Don't, because you really need to have a close understanding

actually how to work with timber.

So like in Japan or in Germany, usually specifically if you use

timber on the outside, you actually install it how the timber was grown.

So there's actually an upside down.

So you install a timber.

On the, on the direction of the timber group.

Yeah.

I actually watched a, um, uh, Instagram reel on that and it

was, that was the black one?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And it was like, like that's, you know, had it sort of showing, you know, these

studs going in place and then someone saying, no, no, that's not how you do it.

Yeah, I learned that too.

It was, and, and then they turned the timber around because they

showed which way the knot was going.

Yeah.

'cause the knot you could see was going down.

Yeah.

They actually wanna turn it around.

So the timber.

Gets installed how it was growing.

And also like you can see, like, I'm shaking my head here, just being like,

I'm just trying to think about this.

But it's actually super simple because like if this is the knot, usually

you have always a darker parts.

Yeah.

With, uh, closer, um, rings.

Yeah.

And the wider parts.

And as.

The, the branch is just have creating more pressure.

On the bottom side.

You have a higher density on the bottom than on the top.

Oh, okay.

So that's where you can see that's direction.

I look all the knocks

in the ceiling here,

uh, behind you, I think you can see it on the model.

Oh, so,

so that's, so that's where the branch should be coming from that point.

That's where the pressure point.

Yeah, I think, I think you can see on the internal one here, on the

right side mid floor connection.

Yes.

This one.

So you can definitely, in my opinion, see that's a bit dark on the right side.

Yeah.

Okay.

Interesting.

Wouldn't think about that.

Yeah.

But this is, it goes back and we, I kind of want to get at comparing the

path, and I don't know if this is on the topic, but comparing the path of,

let's just say a German carpenter to how the carpentry apprenticeship is

sped out here, because I have a problem at the moment that we're producing.

It's, it's all about the number with apprentices at the moment.

We're not concerned about the quality that we're producing.

We're just concerned about hitting a certain number to tick a box.

But that's a future problem.

We're just creating it again.

Oh yeah, a hundred percent.

Because we, we don't create skilled labor for the future.

And the funny thing is, like, um, the TAFE teachers, I know

they have the same frustration.

So I, I work together with a few TAs and I know quite a few.

They're super motivated and wanna do it better, but they're not

even allowed to do it better.

I really don't wanna name any names, but it's kind of, um, most of them actually

know them, aware of the same problems, and they're working on our asses off.

So there's one TAFE in Sydney.

This guy is organizing like courses on Saturday, how to wrap buildings because

it got canceled from the program.

He's organizing himself and the students, like the last time we

went, we had 35, 40 students.

They all came in by themself.

So the

students want it.

The teachers want it.

Yeah.

But the government fucking tick box is like, ah, like yeah.

The government always, and I understand that they're always the biggest barriers.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's difficult because like of course, who to blame, but of course like you need, the

government wants to pump up more builders because we need more and we need another

55,000 more for the Brazil Olympics.

And so on and so on.

So we just hear all the numbers or we need more and more and more.

Yeah.

1.2

million homes, five years, but that's 1.2 million homes that we get to fit

fix up that are actually probably about one point, I think 1, 9, 9, 9.

I think

Australia's not the only country has having this problem.

Germany exactly the same, like we are like half a million.

It's, it's,

it's a world, it's a world issue at the moment, like housing.

I think one of the, I mean, let's sort of focus on some of the

positive things and maybe some of the things that we can influence.

You know, I put a, I put a, um, post ad on social media last week saying,

Hey, I'm chasing a chippy and a, and a car planner, an apprentice

between now and the end of the year.

And I had a teacher from TAFE reach out to me saying, Hey, I am a teacher at tafe.

I'm a qualified chippy.

Um, I'd love an opportunity to come out and work at one of your

sites so I can then go back and.

I teach my students how to build better.

Nice.

And I said, well, why don't you just bring the students out?

Yeah.

To one of our building sites.

And he's like, that's amazing.

So we do have good people, as you said, heaps in.

'cause I, I actually, you know, was just sort of cast in this,

you know, comments saying, oh, the teachers don't give a shit, you know?

Mm-hmm.

So they're all part of it, but.

But it's actually the, the, the system, the program that they're

trying to teach that hasn't changed

for so long and like, yeah, no, I had it like, uh, like really, it's

one of my favorite stories with tif, but I remember always during COVID.

And like I think 10, 15 to 20 of the head teachers from the chippies, they came to

my training as I went to their location and there was one like mid sixties guy

really saying in the background, like looking over the shoulder, 90 degree,

like body language, told the whole story.

I took him one hour and he came to me and asked questions, so it

means come he was also full on.

So it means kind of, you can't hide the truth and even if they're very skeptical.

Of course for myself, I have to be very careful how I transport my knowledge.

Yeah.

So I try to be as polite and respectful as possible.

'cause like quite a lot of people actually of say, ah, in Germany it's

better and, and that's the way how we do it is my, you're not in Germany.

It's like, yeah.

The reasons why I bring it up is not because I think it's better on

as a me, I'm better as a person.

So I'm just trying to implement as much as I can to lift the level for everyone.

'cause there's a lot of things we do better in Australia.

Like what, for example, a thing like he could potentially build

houses significantly cheaper, uh, in Australia than in Germany because

like as external wall in Germany would be like four or 500 millimeters.

So you don't need that much material here in Australia.

We have a healthy, comfortable, energy efficient building.

They, I think we, just, to be honest, my opinion, if you

would ask me, okay, Daniel, what would you change the way work.

Okay.

Would say, okay, we have.

It dramatically improved the quality of timber.

'cause most of the timber is wonky as it is, like it's nearly impossible to build

quality buildings without wasting a lot of time with, uh, planning and city of sea.

So normally four by two, you cut 'em in half, you just glue them together back

to back, so they're straightened up.

Um, so you just, you cross glue them.

Then you put those B boards on the outside and the best case should be

Australian produced, which we still don't have a factory, but it would be great.

And put the membrane on the outside and that would be a

great basic setup for a wall.

Just this setup would change a lot.

No noggins because you have OSB board on the outside and you don't need

noggins because your timber is straight insulation in, inte in chop down.

And if you really just get it run, you save so much time.

I mean, what, why I brought up the hardwood thing before and I, I will

give a bit of a plug to Australian hardwood, Australian sustainable hardwood.

We've recently, uh, trialed a product on one of our building sites where it's

a. Glue laminated one 40 by 45 stud.

So it's the, the timbers, the, the little bits of timber that make up

this stud are actually quite small.

They're little offcuts and they're actually offcuts of their typical,

uh, manufacturing process.

So this timber is ultimately gonna end up as pulp.

Mm. So they're trying to figure out a way to turn it into a product.

Sort of like crafted hardwoods, kinda like craft.

Yeah.

I mean, I guess in the same vein of turning a, um, you know, a, a product,

a waste product or something that's gonna get burnt or pulped or something

into a usable high-end timber.

Now, I'll tell you right now, those timbers are gun barrel straight

and beautiful too.

You don't even wanna cover it.

And they're, and they're beautiful, which is why I was asking.

I think there is a, and.

I dunno what like, how scalable it is.

That was my next question because like if it's a byproduct, I'm pretty

sure it has its limits and quantity.

So

byproduct, but also they've, they're now sort of identifying maybe we could

use some of the thinning trees now.

I did, one of the first things I asked, um, Chris, was

where's the timber coming from?

'cause I'm not gonna put this timber in if you're fell old growth forests.

Yeah.

And he said at the time, I think so he said in two or three weeks.

A hundred percent of the timber that we're gonna be using

is from plantation hardwood.

Australian Plantation.

Australian Plantation Hardwood

from Danny Tasie.

Okay.

So, but again, I dunno how scalable it is because if everyone kind

of adopts this, uh, you're gonna use the timber up pretty quickly.

But in saying that, if, if we're all of a sudden getting a hundred homes a year that

are using one 40, oh, I think it's one 40 by 35 would be the, the ideal timber.

'cause it's lighter.

Yeah.

Uh, at 600 centers.

Even if a hundred homes a year are being built like that,

we're still making an impact.

A hundred percent.

It can,

it can be in the weather a little bit longer.

They're straight, you know, you're not, um, having to deal with, um, straightening

externally and internally, it's like

we don't want our timber in the weather anymore.

I know we don't want that timber in the weather, but this is why I

was asking like, is hardwood gonna be uh, a little bit more durable?

Yes, but I couldn't tell you because specifically it is so funny.

Most of Australian hardwoods still don't know their properties and

everything, so every time when they go in a joinery or I see off cuts,

most of the times I have no idea, like German hardwoods or European hardwoods.

I know them all pretty well, and that's the fascinating part for me as a cheapie

because like I. I pick up each off cut.

That's, I just work with cedar last Saturday.

I took the off cuts there.

Actually, my car, every time when I go in my car have this nice cedar smell.

It's like your air freshener.

Yeah, exactly.

So, um, like I'm really like a nerdy chippy in this case.

So I really love timber, and that's a fascinating part with Australian

timber because you have so many different types of hardwoods.

On the other hand, I couldn't tell you what all the properties of

Australian hardwoods are, to be honest.

Specifically mold sensitivity of each thing that I just know, like that pine

and specifically the plywood we are using here, like is super sensitive.

Super sensitive.

The ply.

Yeah.

The, the plywood standard, 12 plywood we have

is sensitive to mold.

Yeah.

Okay.

You know, you know like when you, when we sheet our house, it easily turns moldy.

Yeah.

You see, I keep saying my trainings like there's a rain cloud on the horizon.

It turns moldy.

Yeah.

Okay.

So, um, and we have to be very aware as builders that we will be liable

now based on the building code.

Is it a good thing, a bad thing?

But I, I personally, I don't see how we, when we build buildings, how we can get

away leaving our structure in the rain.

I really don't know, because I don't think we can keep our building

mold free inside of the membrane.

So we've

created a. Standard, uh, a, a terminology in the code about mold

and what we can and can't do, but no pathway to solve the problem.

But at least mold is in the building code.

No.

Yeah, but it's more in, there is

already a big step, but what's more dangerous?

Not having a pathway because that's, that's a scary.

Thing if we are not, we don't have a, a guide on how to do that, or we're never

taught, or we're never educated on, um, and again, we're going back, we're in

a bubble that we, we know about this, but nine outta 10 average people don't.

Yeah.

Maybe even nine and a half or 9.9.

Yeah.

Yes.

That's, that's not easy because it would come back to education.

I think like that's why the work we are all doing is so

important, like having events and.

And at some point I hope we make an impact on government level, to be honest.

Like that's why we as pro climber fights where we have like Jesse and Will, uh,

sitting on courts levels and connecting,

you know, off the back of this podcast, we're not gonna stop

frames being built and getting wet.

No, we're not gonna stop that.

So what are some of the things that we can do now immediately to minimize the risk?

I'm not saying we're gonna completely eliminate it.

You know, we can have this conversation in another 10 years time.

We're still gonna be building timber frames in the rain during winter.

Yeah.

It'll, it'll continue to happen.

So what are some of the things that we can do?

It's not

positive thinking, EMBA.

No, I understand.

No, no.

Okay.

But, but I know what you're saying.

You know, what are some of the things that we can do right now?

So tomorrow, you know, some frames are gonna rock up on a truck.

The trusses are gonna arrive.

What are some of the things that we can do?

Alright.

It's gonna get wet.

They're probably already wet.

They're prob potentially wet.

Mm-hmm.

So we built it, throw it up, we're wrapping it, you know,

in a, in a timely manner.

Um, and it's probably a bit of a loaded question 'cause I kind of know the

answer, but I wanna ask you, but what are some of the things we can do once

we've stopped the frame from getting wet?

What do you need to do before plaster goes on?

What do you need to do before floor coverings going on?

Just keep your timber dry is from the beginning, and if

it got wet, just let it dry.

That's very, very important.

So like, you know, like the few of the tassie builders they put turn fans on.

Yeah.

Um, one of my favorite tips, which I've seen a few times on social media

is put your bottom plate on packers.

Yeah.

Like in 10 50 millions of wa so your bottom plate doesn't sit in water

because it takes ages to dry out.

This is

something where I've got a new frame coming up, but the hard thing is.

Is the building survey survey gonna sign off on that?

Well,

it's just gotta be the engineer drawings.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's, yeah.

And that's a good point.

It has

to be in the engineer as long as you're fixing this Right.

Uh, underneath, um, right where the Packers, it's no problem at all.

Yeah.

So, yeah, I mean, if you are point lighting under every stud, no problem.

Yeah, exactly.

Easy.

Yeah, of course you have to.

But the time, you have to use common sense here.

Of course, you can't have like a load bearing wall and then

the packers left, middle left.

Yeah,

I know.

I know.

But there's gotta be, there's American systems that they've got these, this in

New Zealand?

It's in New Zealand.

They've got, they've got like a, it's like a tape you roll out that's

got like perforated mesh for it.

Like a, oh, I didn't

know about that.

I've just seen, I've just like a

tape you roll out and it's got like, um, I. Like, not core flute, but

it's got drainage planes through it.

Ah, I think like a super simple, just put on 10 mill packers and you stop

capillary, you can just wipe your water.

And water allows to dry out front.

I mean, you know, dev So scary.

I'll give

you another, I'll give you another idea for a product that you can start

selling through Performance membranes.

It's a something a a a bottom plate packer.

My, that will be an off the shelf product.

I have some better ideas you could bring on the market.

Okay.

All right.

Well maybe we can take that offline and we can do it ourselves.

So we've only got probably 10 minutes left.

We'll just gone another three hours, like last time

and, and I think, you know, we have, you know what, we have

gone all over the place here.

I think we've kind of, we've touched on everything.

We've kind of touched on everything, but you know, like we've talked

about, um, prefabrication and I think obviously this is something

that, you know, we talk about a lot.

Yeah.

Training.

Of apprentices probably how far we are actually behind here in Australia.

And it's, that's what you said?

That's what I said.

Look, and I, I'm always half glass full when it comes to this kind of stuff.

On, on

that positive note.

The buildings we are building are up there, if not some

of the best in the world.

The way we build here with the systems we have, the systems are already here.

If you choose to build correctly, it's a choice.

You can choose to use pro climber or you can choose to use a

non-compliant shitty metal sharking.

That's an active choice that the builder makes, that we, we have

the solutions here right now.

It's, I mean, it's probably to the point I was just about to say before is

like, you, you, yes, we're behind, but now we, now we now we do have a choice.

We've got the, the, the education here.

We've got the people willing to give up their time to train people.

You've got podcasts, you know, build Insight, SBA Future Builder.

All these people are helping educate builders right now on how to build better.

And we also have to see, because I see like with Jesse and Billy

sitting on building courts level.

There's a reason how, why mold made it into the building code.

Oh, right.

Yeah.

'cause of, 'cause of those guys, essentially maybe.

Um, and also like there are quite a few people also on higher levels as not

higher levels, but on the, on, on the science level, like Mark bury Cedar.

Cedar, so.

Uh, mark Bury is a professor for architecture and building

science in utas in Tasmania, and he's also a massive advocate.

So even on heaps and heaps of architects, they're also like

fighting to recreate better buildings.

So he means kind of, very often there are a lot of builders who

wanna do it better and very often feels like you really alone.

But as I live my bubble, I travel a lot around Australia.

Um, had also a few presentations on universities and TAs and

heaps of MBAs at the moment.

So definitely can say you guys are not alone because there's so

many people who wanna do better and they're actually really like

thankful, uh, for all these positive information, the right information.

Then also, like quite a few people listening to your podcast these days too.

Yeah.

That's why I recommended it on the end of every my, all of my presentations.

Oh, amazing.

We, um, touching on Jesse, uh,

have you had a mono already?

No, we haven't.

We've gotta get him on.

He's always in Germany.

We we're going up to Sydney next year.

Yeah.

Okay.

No, he's

just always there.

In summer.

We,

we got, we're gonna do a three hour podcast with him, like he's worth

spending our time with for three hours.

Oh yeah, of course.

Um, going back, I don't think, and he maybe knows, but I, I also think

he probably doesn't understand that moisture study that he did.

The Australian study on moisture management has probably been the biggest,

uh, uh, pouring of petrol on the fire to.

Ignite the conversation in building, also

giving a guideline in my, I think he, yeah, he just spent four

and a half of years of his life to, uh, create this document.

So is it almost a page day?

I would say so, yeah.

And I got, I got a question.

So the amount of work you put in there is like, and it's still like, while building

up Proclaim Australia, we really have to see like, there was a day-to-day business

and I would say like, uh, most of the book happened on his couch, not in the office.

So, so, so you need someone with so much passion to bring this

document out to really like,

so you could say Jesse's like always probably more right than you are.

A hundred percent.

Oh.

Oh, we got that on

video now.

No, of course we can have

that play in the pro climber office.

I think, I think, I think my respect for Jesse is not a secret, to be honest.

He's, we disagreeing a lot, which is good because like we know

exactly the reasons why and yeah.

And with those

disagreement you create.

It's sometimes when you are so hell bent on thinking a certain way you don't

think how someone else might think.

So that disagreement actually gives you those, uh, questions

that someone else might ask you.

Before time a

different perspective because like we all, as humans, we think like

that our way, our perspective or the way how we think is always right.

I just Did you love yourself too?

Um, it's always the right one.

And so it's kind of always good to challenge and not battle

each other, but like challenge each other in a positive way.

Absolutely.

To be actually a consider your own opinion again.

I think like it's, it's not comfortable.

It's not comfortable.

Consider I might have been wrong.

And I think that's, and that's a thing also a big battle for

builders because they listen to us or they come to my trainings.

And very often, eventually I just think like, what have I done right?

And what have I wrong?

What have I done wrong in the, in the past?

And that's why I've been very careful how I actually, 'cause most

of the times people think they're coming to a sales presentation.

Yeah.

And then I come up with building physics and all the other stuff.

And you haven't done it, it's fine.

Conversation.

And, but I, I still have to be very sensitive.

It doesn't work every single time, but I try.

So to really give people like a sensitive, a first step into this kind of world of

better buildings and building science.

So Dan, we have a segment on this podcast sponsored by MEGT, called the

MEGT Mindful Moment, and the whole idea of this, so MEGT Australia's

leading apprenticeship experts.

They are.

Uh, that we are coming up with an idea for apprentices and people in the industry

and a bit of advice that can help them go on their way to, to educate themselves.

I wanna get, and we haven't spoken about this prior to this, I wanna

get three tips that you would give anyone in the industry, apprentices,

apprentices on their journey to, uh, just through their trade.

What would you, what's the biggest three tips you would give them?

First of all, I would always say like.

Get yourself good tools and take really good care of them.

Like and the chisels for example.

They should be all sharp and if you have apprentice, you should always

go to the toolbox and check if you can share himself otherwise said,

okay, go sharpening even if you have something more important to do a thing.

That's kind of, because like it's kind of an old, it doesn't matter if in

Japan or in Europe, like the way how I treat your tools and specifically

your chisels is actually how you treat.

You're building how you build.

That's, I think, a very important part because it's the mindset, how you

actually work step by step through your building and how you detail everything.

Step number one, treat your tools.

Have good tools and treat them well.

'cause usually buy them once in your life if you take care of them.

Um, step number two, keep a learning mindset.

Um, it's kind of, I had to, for me it wasn't easier because.

Me with my big mouth.

Also, like when I finished my apprenticeship, I thought

like I know everything, um, which is, yeah, pretty cool.

But I remember also like when I did my black belt in karate, my teacher

said, so, so now you have the basement.

So now you're ready to start training.

Do you know what that is?

That right there is probably one of the best analogies that you could

give, uh, an apprentice carpenter who's just finished their time.

Yeah.

Now you've got the basics.

Yeah.

Now you can start your, your, your real journey on becoming a carpenter.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But that's how it is.

And that's like a difficult part when you go back, like to the TAFE system because

like in TAFE you learn the same stuff.

You one side and usually you should go to school to take time to.

Work, learn in depth, um, to to, yeah, to work with your hands.

And my third tip would be go back close to the first tip

is use more of new hand tools.

Get your hands out and get cut bits and pieces by your, by your hands.

Get your shoes out or get your hand plan out and just if you have small bits and

pieces, but the hand plan has to be sharp and you shouldn't have to be sharp and

your so needs to be really nice so you can actually make nice cuts per hand.

And for me it's still normal.

Like it's just I shave things off by hand, step by step.

But you see like, oh, there's still like a bu okay, take my hand planer and work

it out, get the sandpaper out and sand it.

Like, yeah.

Yeah.

I, I'm actually just imagining that in my head, like, um, the difference

between using like an electric planer or battery planer versus

using a, you know, like a hand plane

and there's always a use for something.

So I'm not saying you shouldn't use it, but.

I think the best things, as much as I hated it back then, but in the first

year of my apprenticeship, I wasn't allowed to use any power tools at

schools of, you have to remember, full-time school two days a week.

Just practical, like building stuff, models, roof structures.

You're just allowed to use hand tools.

Wow.

It's so different here, right?

Yeah.

Yeah.

We look, it's, it's kind of the conversation that we kind of

had as a, a brief into this.

This podcast is building to the future.

The rule, honest is true, is we're actually just looking into the past.

Yeah, well the an, I mean at the end of the day, the answer's there really aren't

they further you point you were saying

before?

Yeah, I have heaps of ideas, but, uh, but like I keep talking about my ideas, but

I don't have the time to execute them.

So, but it needs kind of something, a figure and something where

actually apprentice actually can like follow and say, okay, cool.

It's a way through my apprenticeship where I actually see and learn

things, which you usually don't see.

Yep.

Awesome.

But.

Take pride in your work, whoever's doing it, and always go all in and

try to be as good as possible and always try to improve yourself.

That's what thing is like, always think like, how could I have done it better?

Be always critical of your own work.

Yeah.

But also celebrate the wins.

Yeah, a hundred percent.

Um,

but that's also like very important for you guys and that's super hard

for me because I just working with the two young guys, three young guys

in Sydney and I keep forgetting like.

Shouting them out.

And so, because like, uh, this one's ticked off, move on to the next one.

So for us, if you have like people helping us or working for us, it's very important

to really get a tip on the shoulders.

Like, so I really like it and go into the detail, not just a phrase.

And I like it and said like, specifically this detail, 'cause you

looked at it, it's like, I really liked it how he worked it out.

Do you know I, uh, I was on the phone to Beth the other day.

Oh yeah.

And um.

I was telling her like, how good one of my apprentices was, and

I'm like, oh, yeah, she's amazing.

Like she's, you know, probably one of the better ones I've ever had.

You know, she's enthusiastic, you know, she shows up.

She, uh, always, she's always keen to learn.

And Beth turned around to me and said, have you told her?

Mm-hmm.

I said, no, I didn't.

I haven't.

She goes, okay, cool.

You should.

Yeah.

So I got off the phone and I sent her a voice note.

Yeah.

And I, I said exactly what I said to Beth.

And the response was awesome.

It was exactly what, how Beth said she goes.

'cause she probably doesn't know that you're thinking that.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.