The salient point of this podcast episode centers on the exploration of joy within the context of marriage and personal relationships, particularly as articulated by our esteemed guest, Dr. J. In this episode, we engage in a profound dialogue with Dr. J, who shares the concept of the "Elephant in the Marriage," referring to unaddressed issues that often hinder relational harmony. We explore the significance of perspective in shaping our interactions and perceptions, highlighting the necessity of recognizing and reconciling differing viewpoints within marital dynamics. Furthermore, Dr. J offers insights into the importance of effective communication, particularly during challenging periods, and emphasizes the role of the Holy Spirit in facilitating healing and understanding. As we navigate these complex themes, we aim to equip our listeners with practical strategies to foster joy and connection in their relationships.

Takeaways:

• Dr. J articulates the concept that our perspectives shape our perceptions, which can deeply affect our interactions within marriages and relationships.
• The necessity of confronting the 'elephants' in our marriages is highlighted, as unaddressed issues can lead to misunderstandings and conflict between spouses.
• Effective premarital counseling is crucial in preparing couples for the realities of marriage and addressing potential issues before they escalate.
• The dialogue underscores the importance of communication in marriage, especially in understanding differing perspectives and fostering empathy between partners.
• The episode suggests that recognizing when one is holding onto unhealthy perceptions can be pivotal for personal growth and marital healing.

Foreign.

Podcast.

So excited to have our friend with the podcast, Dick, Foth back for another session of Back Channel with Foath.

And then we're going to jump into our interview with Dr. J on elephant in the Marriage.

Dick, welcome back to the podcast.

Thanks a million, Aaron.

Always lovely to be with you.

It is, and Dick is very kind.

I flew into Colorado a few weeks ago and said, hey, I'll be there in just a little bit.

Not recognizing that Fort Collins and Colorado Springs are not that close together.

But anyway, we made it work and it was a mistake on my part in my lack of understanding of Colorado geography.

So there we go.

So, Dick, first question I got for you is what gives you joy?

And how do you practice joy?

I was really challenged by this question when you send it to me.

First of all, I think joy is a great topic, but let me start with a scripture that I think is a template for many of our lives.

We could later and it's Philippians 4, such a well known scripture.

Rejoice in the Lord always.

I'll say it again.

Rejoice.

Let your gentleness be evident to all.

The Lord is near.

He's speaking into a tough situation here.

Do not be anxious about anything, anything in every situation.

By prayer and petition of thanksgiving, present your request to God.

And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

I have a friend who's currently undergoing cancer treatment.

It's a very serious kind.

He's a speech writer historically for senators on Capitol Hill and he wrote a little piece the other day.

I just want to read his response.

If I may.

I'll express opinion that if I don't get the first part right, the rest of it doesn't work for me.

He's talking about this text.

If I don't get the rejoice part right, the rest of the text doesn't work for me.

And he was saying that he was studying Joy recently with a group of friends and he came to an understanding.

I have to choose to rejoice.

Joy is a choice.

So when the question is what gives you joy?

Anxiety says to me, this isn't going to work.

I don't have enough.

Or be realistic.

Rejoicing.

Faith says the Lord's an heir, the miracle workers on duty.

And I'm making all things new.

Joy for me at my age is getting a chance to reflect on maybe a small part of lives changed.

Looking back when, when you're older, you tend to look back because you're on A short leash at the front end, the other end.

Right.

And so being people, people will send notes every now and again or will bump into somebody who said, you know, this moment in time.

And you don't.

That moment in time, quite possibly.

But there's something joyous about hearing and reflecting on the second thing.

And this is going to sound cheesy, except to the women.

Okay.

Ruth and I are sitting side by side watching some program, Antiques Roadshow.

When you're old, you walk Antiques Roadshow.

And.

And Ruth reaches over and pats my hand.

There's something about the pat of a hand either when you're old or a little kid.

Yeah.

That's getting a patent head from on.

Yeah.

And also being a family person, having these kids and grandkids.

It's observing how God is at work in their lives.

I don't.

I don't mean that it's all, you know, sweet cream and peaches.

It's.

But just seeing the Lord, those kinds of things bring me joy.

Wow.

Wow.

I love it.

Love it.

Dick, the second question.

The same person sent this.

These two together.

In dry spiritual seasons, I'm struggling to maintain joy.

Any practices you have found to be valuable, specifically in dry seasons?

I think there's something about music and truth that goes deep.

Songs of hope and grace and trust.

Listening to those.

Ruth is a pianist, and she's got some chronic things going on, but oftentimes I'll hear her maybe early in the morning or even midday, and she'll be in what we call our piano room, which is also her sewing room, and she'll be playing old gospel songs, songs that she knows more songs than.

And.

And they're almost always songs of hope and grace and trust.

Yeah.

There's something about.

There's something deep in us that when we hear music that can.

I mean, the World cup, you know, people listening to this, they know more about the World cup than most Americans would hear.

Right.

And we get to the end when the US Won something and everybody's singing your song.

That's right.

Country Roads.

Take me home.

Country Roads, which is, I consider, an old gospel song.

People say that's not a gospel.

Sure it is.

Take me home to the place where I belong that's the heart of the believer.

I'm on a journey home to the place I belong so that I think reaching back to connect with old friends gives me joy.

It's part of what I would call my relational theology structure that there is a piece of loving God that is expressed very blatantly in Love God with your whole entire being and love your neighbor.

Love the.

So reaching back to just being able to reflect, it isn't reminiscing necessarily, but there's something about that.

And the challenge with dry periods is I think whatever dry periods I've had in my life are where I either don't feel valued or engaged as I did earlier.

And when you age, you feel this a bit more or you reflect on a defect or a failure.

I just like to say looking at where I am now and speaking, I in the largest sense, not just me, but.

But when you age, you look back on, man when I was 33 and doing that, or when I was 52 and it was hot stuff.

And I have a friend who says comparison is the thief of joy.

Wow.

If I compare how, quote, productive I was 12 years ago and how I am now, you know, that kind of thing, sure.

Those are my thoughts.

Love it.

Love it.

Dick, always appreciate your wisdom and insight on Back Channel with Foe.

We're going to go ahead and jump into our interview with Doct J on Elephant in the Marriage.

Well, there's no time better than now to get started.

So here we go.

Greetings and welcome back to the Clarity Podcast.

So excited to be here today with a new friend of the podcast, Dr. J.

Welcome.

Well, welcome.

Good afternoon, Dr. J.

For those who did not get to meet you in Springfield, Missouri, those who haven't had the opportunity yet to read your book, will you share what you would like to share about yourself before I start asking you questions about the elephant in the marriage?

Yeah, absolutely.

So I get the privilege of serving as lead pastor at Capital Church out in Albany, N.Y. married 31 years, have three amazing kids, 21, 18 and 16.

So they're growing up.

Licensed counselor, been blessed over the years to be able to serve the community and kind of that unique role as both lead pastor, staff pastor at different opportunities, but then also being able to serve as a licensed counselor.

So God's opened some doors with some of our networks, some of our missionaries, some speaking opportunities.

And.

And God's used the book.

Yeah.

So is is your degree in counseling and becoming a licensed counselor?

Is that something you, you did before you went to ministerial training in the middle of it, after.

Yeah.

How was the sequence of that?

Yeah.

So after graduating from the University of Valley Forge, then went on to Loyola University.

So I was serving as a youth pastor in New Jersey and then commuting down to Baltimore, Maryland for three semesters until finally my wife and I was like, eric, this is crazy.

And so then we moved down to Maryland to the Potomac Ministry Network and served there.

And so my master's and my PhD are in pastoral counseling.

Wow.

Very, very cool.

Very, very cool.

Well, Jason, it was a joy to have you in your home and get to know you some this past this in the summer and looking forward to our conversation today.

So, you know, one of the major things you write about is perspective and how perspective can impact our marriage.

Can you share more about that?

Yeah, absolutely.

So when we kind of really break it down to that basic things, we see what we see and then we respond to what we see.

That's kind of like common sense.

You don't need a PhD to pick up on that.

But it's not something that we often think about in the day to day.

And what we see, our perspective, really just our line of sight, our field of vision, what we see then creates our informs, our perceptions, and our perceptions are our realities.

So, like right now I see you on zoom.

So I see that you're sitting there in front of a microphone, you've got headphones on or AirPods and then you've got a bookshelf behind you.

I can see that.

That's perspective.

That's just what I see.

But then from that, am I my perception?

Okay, I can look at those books and I can have an opinion about that.

And that's just really going to put it simple day to day in our marriage.

There's so much that we see socks on the floor, toothpaste, toilet seat, left up.

Like those are things that are just in our field of vision.

We see these things, but then we create perceptions from that.

And that is kind of those interactions that we have as husband and wives.

So our perspectives, you know, they're really kind of that building block, that initial foundation for so much that goes on.

And it happens so automatically.

I mean, this has been happening since we were kids, since we were born, that we don't really ever stop.

Very rarely do we stop to think about kind of what we see and how that influences what we think that we see.

So if I hear what you're saying is, is if we don't stop and think about our perspectives, sometimes they can be guiding.

We can be making decisions off those and we've not considered them.

Is that, is that a fair.

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

You know, so much of this happened just automatically based upon, again, just what we see, what's just right in front of us, and that creates those, those reactions.

You know, again, we see the socks on the floor.

That's a perspective.

That's something that we're seeing.

Our per is all right, our husband's a slob, or, you know, our wife didn't care enough about us to pick it up.

And it can still quickly kind of spiral, you know, one way or the other.

And so being able to.

That kind of a really helpful place just to pause and say, wait a second.

What do I see?

What do I think I see?

And what am I thinking about that?

Yeah.

And Dr. J, you share in the.

In the book this idea that perspectives are more cognitive than they are emotional.

They're more cognitive than they are emotional.

Could you unpack that concept for us?

Yeah, absolutely.

So, again, if we're looking at the perspective and the perceptions, you know, the perspective is what's in front of you.

Like right now.

I see there's a book, a bookshelf behind you.

That's cognitive.

That's just a fact.

That's line of sight.

There's no interpretation on the fact that actually, I see three bookshelves behind you.

That's just cognitive.

There's nothing subjective about that perception, though.

On the other hand, what do I interpret from that?

What does that mean to me?

Should there be more books?

Should there be less souvenirs?

Should they be taller?

Should they be wider?

Are they neat?

Are they organized?

All of those things fall under that subjective.

That more kind of that emotional aspect of our.

Of our perceptions.

And that's really.

I mean, that is where we live.

We live in our perceptions, those subjective realities, and often really just bypassing that initial critical component of that cognitive component of our perspectives.

Wow.

And as you work with marriages, you've seen that play out in marriage, too.

This idea that you're going off the emotional perceptions and not considering the cognitive perspective.

Is that.

Is that true?

Yeah, I mean, we.

We all think that we're right.

You know, I see what I see.

I know what I know.

And so when I have a husband and wife in front of me, generally speaking, they both know that they're correct about whatever's going on.

And to be honest, they're completely correct from their point of view, from their subjective realities, from their perceptions.

You know, perception is reality even if it's not true.

And so being able to then sit with that and say, all right, so how are these things impacting?

So let's say we've got both spouses working out of the home, and so they're living their days at the office, and they come home.

Well, there's a good chunk of the other person's day that they haven't even seen.

Yeah.

You know, so something as simple as the gas tank being empty, I was like, all right, well, I see that the gas tank is on E. Perspective.

That's just what I'm seeing.

Perception is they don't care.

They're lazy, they're inconsiderate.

It might be, you know, their credit.

Their wallet was stolen and, you know, their credit card was declined or something that they might not be aware of or someone's late coming home.

Yeah, all right.

Perspective, that's objective.

You look at the clock.

I said I'd be home at 5, it's now 5:15.

Perception then kicks in.

Well, they're late, they're inconsiderate.

Maybe they're cheating on me or they're going to the track.

Who knows where the creativity might go?

And who knows, maybe they were driving home and a truck knocked over full of kittens, and so they stopped.

They're rescuing these kittens off the highway.

And here they're a savior, and they did CPR on someone.

All of that comes from, you know, initially, those perspectives, that objective, like, really what.

What happened?

Yeah.

And then again, those perceptions.

Well, hey, even if you're giving someone CPR or administering CPR to someone, if you cared enough about me, you should have called.

That's that subjective component of perception, and that's really kind of that key and critical for thriving marriages.

Wow, wow, wow, wow, man.

Super insightful, super insightful.

One of the other things that you.

All throughout the book, there were things that I highlighted and marked and reread and reconsidered.

But this idea that.

Can someone reckon that the.

How do they come to reckon with the idea that maybe what they've held to be true may not be the whole picture?

And, you know, it made me think of things that I've held to be true.

But maybe I'm just so zeroed focused in that I'm not stepping back and seeing the broader perspectrum of that and then wrestling personally with.

Well, I like to be right, you know, I mean, and so you want it to let go of all.

There's actually more here and I'm going to let go of that.

I honestly, to be very honest with you, it was.

It was not necessarily easy.

And so how do you.

How do you help couples, individuals reckon with the idea that maybe they're.

What they see is true, but it's a limited view.

And then how do they begin to maybe let go of some of that or surrender to that idea rather than holding on tighter and digging their heels in.

Does that make sense?

Yeah, absolutely.

And I think you've kind of just unpacked part of that process there.

And it kind of starts with recognizing, all right, there's something going on here.

And quite often this is.

Honestly when I first might meet a couple in my doctoral dissertation that I kind of spoke about this, like, all right, all these things that I've unpacked, this is usually when they come into my office for the first time.

You know, she might say, he's not the man that I married.

And the honest truth is, he never was the man you thought that he was.

You know, we're all aware at least of the trope that, you know, the guy is trying harder to try to win and put on his best, you know, his best impressions for her, to woo her into whatever.

And then once they get married, then he.

He eases back.

Okay, well, that's.

That might be true.

That might be part of it.

But another component that we often don't really realize is that he wasn't who you thought he was to begin with.

You know, we kind of.

Well, this is what we.

I want him to be.

And we kind of interpret.

I had a. I had a couple that came in and she was explaining, like, what a heavy drinker her husband has become after they got married.

The truth was, he's always been a heavy drinker.

But she viewed, hey, well, it's the weekend, we're going out.

He's just a social drinker.

And he's like, no, that's like, she's at work during the day, he's at home drinking.

And then when she gets home, maybe he has something to drink with dinner.

Now that they get married, her perspective changes.

She's seeing more information.

And so she thought she was marrying someone who was not a heavy drinker.

Now, again with the caveat with these homies of God, we don't drink at all.

This was someone in the community.

So just being clear on that.

But the same thing happens with someone.

Oh, he loves the Lord.

They start dating, they get engaged, they get married.

And he doesn't want to go to church and think, well, you just wanted him to love the Lord.

And so, again, this is when those kind of reckoning with that, well, he wasn't who you actually thought he was.

And so for some, this comes as, like, honestly, really good news.

It's not that he is getting worse.

It's just this unexpected reality that, oh, he never was who you thought he was to begin with.

And again, it works both ways.

And so many different relationships.

You know, maybe we take a new job and after six months, like, wow, that's not what I thought it was.

Well, it's what you were hoping it was going to be.

But I have to tell people I'm a big fan of reality.

I was on staff at a church and my office was internal, so I didn't have any external windows.

And the pastor's wife, well, you could paint a window on your wall.

And I understand where she was coming from and some people appreciate that.

But I'm like, well, but I'm going to know it's fake.

And so for me, like, no, I'm a big fan of reality.

If I don't have a window, I'm just going to do the fact I don't have a window.

And in our marriages, being able to just face reality, oh, I don't know him as well as I thought.

Or this is an area that she's struggling with and just.

All right, let's start.

Let's start by introducing ourselves to reality and then being able to build from there and is really kind of that key way to record with that.

Dr. J, how do you help or any words of wisdom, maybe for those who aren't married yet, that they can maybe open their eyes up to the realities that are there, rather than maybe waiting until they're married and then, I don't know, they're caught off guard by it.

Are there ways that maybe you work in premarital counseling or encouraging people?

These are some things you can consider in the pre marriage part of it to get a.

As you said, not to.

Not to paint it one way or the other, but just least have a grab on what reality is.

Yeah.

I mean, you hit on the key part right there is premarital counseling.

And like I would say, good premarital counseling.

Okay.

Premarital counseling that is not afraid to ask those tough questions because often, and I've worked with couples, they get engaged and their goal is to get to the wedding day.

And so they don't want to ruffle any feathers, they don't want to stir.

You know, they don't want to make any waves and they just want to keep each other happy and get to the altar and they avoid a great learning opportunity.

I always share with couples during that first premarital counseling session that the engagement is one of God's greatest gifts for the couple.

It gets you to start thinking like husband and wife without that, that covenant, that bond, that.

That binding contract of being married.

To put it quite bluntly, you get to learn things before you say, I do.

And not every couple that goes through premarital counseling ends up getting married or should end up getting married.

It's so much less painful to confront those things then and there than to just ignore, overlook, and not be aware of it, then get married, and then need to deal with it.

So really going through good premarital counseling, asking those tough questions, walking through that.

I had one couple that we walked through the premarital counseling and then decided, you know what?

Yeah, we're just, we're not, we're not going to get married.

And then about six or eight months later, they came to realize, you know what, the things that we were disagreeing on and those things that were barriers between us, you know, we really want to make this work.

And so they ended up getting re engaged, got married, and now they've got some beautiful kids growing up, serving the Lord.

But that's only possible by really confronting those things early on.

Yeah, good word.

And, and as you said, it's.

It's going to be uncomfortable either way.

Either if you wait till after or before you get married.

At some point, I think you're going to have to confront those realities.

But you pointed out, absolutely, it's less painful and maybe less impacting if you're able to do that before than waiting till after you're married.

And then the consequences that can be there can be such a ripple effect from, from there.

One of the other things you pointed out was this idea that we can become attached to realities in our marriage, even if those realities are causing us misery.

I thought about that even in other relationships in my life.

But for this, for this podcast, we'll stick to marriage.

But the realities that are causing us misery and we become attached to them, do we need to detach from those?

Do we need to address those from, from your experience?

How would, what would you speak into that?

Yeah, I think even circling back to something we just spoke about, again, being a big fan of reality, some of those perceptions that they're holding on to, some of those realities, those subjective realities, they aren't real realities.

And that's part of that.

What's causing the misery, you know, when we're walking with something that just isn't true, you know, if I, if I thought that I was going to be great at basketball, and for those who can't see me yet, Dr. J.

But I'm not that Dr. J.

And I'm not good at basketball, I don't have the height or the skill.

But if I just keep carrying myself as someone who is great at basketball, I'm going to keep being frustrated when I lose and, you know, when it's not working out, and I can hold on to that.

And a lot of people hold on to things, and it can be as simple as, hey, I'm a great communicator, or I understand how to show love to my.

To my spouse.

I'm a great parent.

You know, we hold on to some of these things that we want to hold on to, but they're not lining up with what they're really experiencing.

And so that's really kind of like that misfire in the engine, and it keeps causing misery because you're holding on to one subjective reality, your spouse is holding on to another subjective reality reality, and they're just clashing, and it causes unnecessary pain, unnecessary misery in the relationships.

And so, again, the goal would be being able to increase that communication, being able to increase the awareness of what we're seeing, and being willing to challenge some of those subjective realities that we're holding on to.

Good word.

So the title of the book is the Elephant in the Marriage.

So do most marriages have an elephant?

And how do people begin to name it?

Yeah, so in the book, I kind of run down a list of different names that people might.

In different ways that it might pop up.

But at the bottom line, again, circling back to those same two terms, again, really comes down to that reality that husband and wives were living in different realities.

You know, there's a book that talks about being from different planets.

Like, no, we.

We live on the same planet.

We're just not on the same page.

And it would be one thing if we were in different planets like you and I, right now, we're in different time zones.

We're aware of that.

So even preparing for this, this conversation today, we confirmed, right?

What time zone are we talking about?

What platform are we using?

Because we knew we're not in the same city, husbands and wives, they're in the same home, they're in the same bed.

They might even drive the same car.

So then they assume that they're living on the same page, but often they're not.

And it can be subtle, but it's just enough.

And so really, that's the elephant.

It's right there.

They keep bumping into it when they're trying to plan where we're going for dinner, what are we doing for the holidays, how are we spending this week's paycheck, they just keep bumping into it and not discussing it because they don't really know what it is.

Maybe they're not aware, or how do we handle this?

And both thinking them, or at least assuming often that, well, I'm right.

And so when there is that friction, then we just assume it's the other person's fault because, well, why would I be wrong?

I'm seeing clearly.

You're overspending.

I'm seeing clearly.

You're not picking up after yourself.

And we don't often challenge what we see with our eyes.

And this is really words that, you know, we talk about seeing something from someone else's perspective, walking a mile in their shoes.

There's a lot of wisdom and just that practical stopping and thinking.

What is it that they're seeing?

Thinking, observing.

One of the.

For me, it was just a really powerful moment.

I was on staff at a church and one of our staff pastors was preaching.

It was his first time preaching in, like, the adult service, the main service.

And quite honestly, he did a phenomenal job.

And right after service, you know, often people might come up, you know, share something that they liked or thought.

And this individual came up and started criticizing the staff pastor for one of the songs that he referenced.

It was a non Christian song, I think, a country singer.

And, you know, here he just gave it it all and preached two great services.

And he was devastated, you know, and I'm hearing about and affirming him.

And then I reflected, like, imagine, imagine what she must have been going through that morning for after all that she heard you share for that to be the one thing she picked up on.

And I saw his face just completely change because for that moment, he put himself in her shoe, not understanding.

All right, I don't know where she's coming from.

I don't know why she chose that.

But obviously she must have been going through something that.

It wasn't the scriptures, the altar call, or any of the illustrations.

It was the fact that he used a non Christian country song and its lyrics.

And I think if we're able to do that in our marriage, you know, when our spouse gets upset or disappointed or, you know, being able to stop and think, all right, what from their point of view, from their perspective, what do they need?

And this is, you know, one of the beauties of the love languages, the five love languages, is it's not just how do I want love?

Or how am I good at showing love?

It's really stopping and thinking, well, how do they receive love?

You know, what would be meaningful to them?

And that's really where we're able to start addressing these elephants.

It's where we're able to not just simply survive marriage, but begin to have a thriving marriage.

When I speak at conferences, I often will just say a quick show of hands.

How many of you have not killed your spouse today?

Most of them will raise their hands.

So you've survived another day of marriage.

That's kind of a really low.

A low benchmark.

Just simply surviving.

Yeah.

I believe God has so much more for us, and that really is in that thriving marriage.

But it does take work, it does take intentionality, but it's absolutely worth it.

Yeah, for sure, for sure.

Dr. J.

What does it look like to lower our defenses so that we can be open to what the Holy Spirit is speaking to us as and we.

Perceptive perspectives, perception, and allowing the Holy Spirit to come in and do.

Do a work in our hearts and life.

What does that look like to invite him in and to open ourselves up to.

For him to help us in these areas?

Yeah.

And we really do need the Holy Spirit because this is.

This is humbling.

This is being able to say, I might not be right.

Yeah, I may be wrong.

I might have to put in some extra work.

And quite honestly, there's only so far that we can go on our own.

You know, you can try your hardest, try your hardest, try your hardest.

But when we create space, you know, kind of with the natural and he can be the supernatural and come and help us do more than we can do on our own strength.

And this is one of those powerful moments of prayer.

Seeking the Lord at the altars, times of fasting, or just humbly asking your spouse to be able to share and then not judge, not defend, but being able to actively listen to what they're communicating, It's not easy.

Again, when you mentioned earlier, we like to be right.

Someone once said, you can be right or you can be happy.

And it really could be a tough choice.

And, you know, there's some truth to that, but also kind of tongue in cheek, because to truly be happy is to have that thriving marriage.

And it's creating that space for the Holy Spirit to work.

And there may be areas within ourselves that we need to repent, areas within ourselves that we really need to create space.

You know, especially when a question I'll often ask a couple, you know, they're sitting before me and I'll ask, well, so how long have you been married?

All right, we've married 10 years.

Okay, well, it's taken you 10 years to get to where you are, it's going to take you some time to change things.

And that formula works, whether it's be we've been together one year, 10 years, or 25 years, you can't imagine.

I mean, my wife and I, we've married 31 years.

You know, anything that we want to address, you know, before that we were engaged, before that we were dating.

We met when we were in children's church.

So I have known my wife now for about 45, 46 years.

Wow.

And I'm not perfect.

And so anything in our marriage that we want to work on, you know, it's going to take some time.

Yeah.

And.

And, you know, there's always.

I'm going to try harder and maybe for a couple of days, for a couple of weeks, maybe, if we're really good, for a couple of months.

But we tend to ease back into known patterns, known perceptions, because we're still seeing things the way that we want to see things.

But if we're able to see things from the other's point of view, we're able to understand what it is that they're seeing within the relationship, within the way we're acting, you know, that really creates that opportunity for the Holy Spirit to do some miracles in our marriages.

Amen.

Amen.

Dr. J, you write about the reality that missionaries and pastors face some of the same challenges in marriages, the same realities in marriage, those that they're ministering to, those they're caring for, those are shepherding.

Do how do you help pastors and missionaries 1 not be ashamed of that?

At the same time, walk in that and walk towards a sense of wholeness and in healing in the marriage?

Yeah.

You know, it's challenging.

Often those in the pews will look up to missionaries.

And quite honestly, even just as recently as this Sunday, I'm sharing, you know, those hero stories of our missionaries and what they're doing, because I think there should be a lot of honor and respect for what they do in responding to God's call.

But they're still human.

If you prick them, do they not still bleed?

They're still human.

And so at the end of the day, when they go home, they face the same realities, the same elephant in their marriage that anyone else does.

Just because someone has responded to God's call doesn't mean never any issues with finances, never issues with health.

Their kids will instantly always behave and doesn't mean that their marriage will just instantly fall into sync and their communication will increase.

You know, they face some of the Same challenges, but then also they have unique pressures of being on the mission field.

And so they face some of the same interpersonal relationship challenges, but they're facing it in an increasingly more challenging situation than even those in the pews.

And then you add to that that those that are responding to God's call and are serving often feel that they don't have someone they can talk to about it because, well, they're responding to God's call, they're serving.

And, you know, they've got their supporting churches and those that are praying for them and coming on teams and trips and, you know, being able to be vulnerable and share, oh, no, hey, we're struggling.

It can be really isolating for them.

And sometimes it just kind of snowballs if they're not addressing it.

And so, you know, it's just always been an honor to be able to step into some of those situations and just bring a little bit of kind of direction and guidance.

One, normalizing what they're walking through, but also to show, hey, there is a way forward and a way towards health in the relationship.

Yeah, for sure.

I got one or two more questions for you.

In general, people move away from pain, but you share that looking at injuries and caring for them so that we can heal is valuable.

So that idea of missionary, as you said, you know, coming to the place of finding who they can talk to and sharing about that maybe some of the pain they're experiencing in general, we, at least Aaron does, he moves away from it.

I don't necessarily seek pain out and sometimes I can cover things over.

But how do we.

How do we begin to look at those things and bring them to a place where they can find healing?

And how do we do that?

On a practical level?

Yeah, so I think on a, on a practical level, one is believing that there, there's benefit for it.

I mean, if there's an elective or optional surgery, we're not going to choose it if we don't feel that the pain is worth the benefit or the gain.

And so this is, again, often when I'm meeting a couple for the first time, it's when they got to that point that it's so painful they have to do something.

And although I'm honored and grateful to be able to work in those situations, we don't have to wait until it gets that bad.

We can preemptively and proactively.

So it's being able to realize benefit for this.

I have a whiteboard at my office and I'll often kind of during A first or second session, just draw a check mark on the board and say, you know, things might appear to get worse.

You know, the check mark, where things go down, things may appear to get worse before they get better.

And sometimes just that visual can be helpful for them.

Because, hey, for these first few sessions, we're going to be talking about things, asking questions, looking at things that we would rather not and that we haven't for a while.

And so there's that reality may appear to get worse.

It's not getting worse.

In the book, I talk about the real life example of skinning my knee and my mom grabbing the hydrogen peroxide and pouring it on my knee.

The peroxide isn't making it worse.

I'm feeling it more and I'm wondering, why is my mom torturing me?

It's not making it worse, it's actually helping.

And so, you know, being able to, to recognize that.

And sometimes, you know, a couple might get to a spot where we need to reach out to someone.

They go for two or three sessions of marriage counseling and like, wow, this is just making things worse.

Like, I have had couples tell me, like, even recently, oh, yeah, we've gone for counseling.

It just made things worse.

Well, not necessarily.

Yeah, but if we're kind of able to stick with it, it may appear to get worse, but being able to.

That's why I like to ask that miracle question of, hey, if God did a miracle in your relationship and you woke up and things were better, what would that look like?

And it's helpful to be able to tease out tangible, what are we aiming for?

And when you can get a husband and a wife on the same page of what their fighting for, you know, what they're working towards, it can be really, really helpful.

Oftentimes they'll come in for marriage counseling and they have different goals, which is fine.

Again, we have different perspectives, we can have different goals.

But being able to find out, hey, what can be, what can we be working towards together can be really helpful to be able to kind of lean into that pain and not just running away from it.

Love it.

Dr. Jamie, last question for you is if I was a good podcast host, what is one question I would have asked for?

The elephant in the marriage or anything, Any relaxed words of encouragement or thing you would like to share that I didn't ask.

And then I'm going to ask you to pray for us.

Yeah, no, thank you again, it's just an honor being able to be here.

And you've been a phenomenal hosted and asking the questions.

And I appreciate, appreciate that and again, just appreciate the opportunity to be able to in any which way.

I pray that those even listening today, whether they're going through something or someone that they know is going through something, to recognize there are resources out there.

You know, being able to, again, depending upon your situation, if you feel you can talk to, you know, a supporting church or a pastor, or find counseling or being able to reach out to someone and something even as simple as, hey, I don't know who I can talk to.

But being able to start picking up a book or a resource like the Elephant in the Marriage, and I talk very candidly in the beginning of the book, like this isn't the greatest marriage counseling book ever.

There are a lot of other great best selling books.

But what I have found is that many times they can read an excellent book, sit through an excellent marriage seminar read or sit through an excellent sermon series on relationships, but they're still stuck in their perspectives and their perceptions and so they don't get everything out of it that they can.

And so in a sense, I look at the elephant in the marriage.

It's kind of like a can opener that helps to get more out of.

And so being able to walk through this either by yourself or ideally with your spouse and then, you know, those other resources and books and workshops you've gone to, they can become that much more impactful for, for them in their marriage.

I love it.

Love it.

Dr. J.

Will you pray for us?

Absolutely.

Well, dear Heavenly Father, Lord, once again we just thank you, Lord.

I thank you even for this opportunity here, Lord, recognizing, Lord, that we, we all need your help within our marriage and our relationships, Lord, that we don't need to walk through this alone, Lord God, and even for a specific moment like this, that there may be someone that's listening that has been looking for, seeking or praying for the Holy Spirit to help them within their relationship.

I pray that there's been something that they've heard today that would help them take that next step, Lord God, to not just simply survive, but to thrive within their marriage.

Lord, I just thank you for this.

We pray this, Lord, in your name, the name of Jesus Christ.

Amen.

Amen.