What happens when fame arrives before you know who you are… and then disappears? In this episode of Psychology, Actually, I’m joined by 90s pop star Kavana (Anthony Kavanagh) to explore the psychology of fame, addiction, identity and recovery.

We talk openly about the reality behind the spotlight - from chart success and public adoration to addiction, shame, and rebuilding a life when everything changes.Anthony shares his journey into sobriety, what recovery really looks like day-to-day, and how writing his memoir became part of that healing process.

If you’ve ever wondered about the emotional cost of success, or what it takes to come back from rock bottom, this is a powerful and honest conversation.

Check out Anthony Kavanagh's brilliant book, Pop Scars, a memoir on fame, addiction and the darker side of 90's pop: https://amzn.to/3O2R8fh

This episode is sponsored by WriteUpp the online practice management software I use in my own practice. To grab a 30 day free trial & 30% off for 60 months for up to 6 users use code Marianne30 here: https://writeupp.com/?refid=142336

⏱️ Timestamps

• 00:00 Fame vs reality – what we don’t see
• 01:42 Writing a memoir during recovery
• 03:23 Pain vs humour in storytelling
• 05:23 Early life and first job
• 08:13 Getting discovered and becoming Kavana
• 10:38 First experiences of fame13:04 Identity, sexuality and performance
• 15:45 Pressure of maintaining a persona
• 20:54 When things started to shift
• 24:39 Losing momentum and public attention
• 26:14 Alcohol as coping
• 29:01 Hollywood years and escape
• 31:06 Addiction, denial and rock bottom
• 33:41 Loss of control and blackouts
• 37:17 Loose Women interview experience
• 39:01 4 years sober – what recovery looks like
• 41:00 Daily practices and staying well
• 42:42 Being sober in social spaces
• 44:30 Rebuilding identity without alcohol
• 47:39 Life now, creativity and future plans

Links:

📲 Connect with Anthony Kavanagh here: https://www.instagram.com/kavana_real/

🫶 To join my podcast membership to get early access to episodes and / or exclusive weekly content head to: https://the-aspiring-psychologist.captivate.fm/support or to the Apple Podcasts App: https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-aspiring-psychologist-podcast/id1605628278 or to YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOwjrIP_jatiqlAivJE2mgQ/join

📚 To check out The Clinical Psychologist Collective Book: https://amzn.to/3jOplx0

📖 To check out The Aspiring Psychologist Collective Book: https://amzn.to/3CP2N97

💡 To check out or join the aspiring psychologist membership for just £30 per month head to: https://www.aspiring-psychologist.co.uk/membership

🖥️ Check out my short courses for aspiring psychologists and mental health professionals here: https://www.aspiring-psychologist.co.uk/online-courses

Ask Marianne your most pressing psychology career question and she will send you a FREE bespoke reply! Grab your free psychology success guide here and fill in the most pressing concern box: https://www.aspiring-psychologist.co.uk (scroll to the bottom of the page)

✍️ Get your FREE Supervision Shaping Tool now: https://www.aspiring-psychologist.co.uk/free-resources

📱Connect socially with Marianne and check out ways to work with her, including the Aspiring Psychologist Book, Clinical Psychologist book and The Aspiring Psychologist Membership on her Link tree: https://linktr.ee/drmariannetrent

💬 To join my free Facebook group and discuss your thoughts on this episode and more: https://www.facebook.com/groups/aspiringpsychologistcommunity

Like, Comment, Subscribe & get involved:

If you enjoy the podcast, please do subscribe and rate and review episodes.

Hashtags:

#aspiringpsychologist #dclinpsy #psychology #assistantpsychologist #psychologycareers #podcast #psychologypodcast #clinicalpsychologist #mentalhealth #traineeclinicalpsychologist #clinicalpsychology #drmariannetrent #mentalhealthprofessional #gettingqualified #mentalhealthprofessionals #traineepwp #mdt #qualifiedpsychologist #traineepsychologist #aspiringpsychologists #wellbeing

In the late '90s, Kavana was one of the biggest pop stars in the UK. But behind the charts and the spotlight, something very different was happening. Today, we're talking about the psychology of fame, addiction, and what it actually takes to rebuild your life when the spotlight fades. If you find it helpful, please like and subscribe for more. Welcome along to Psychology. Actually, I'm Dr. Marianne Trent and I'm joined here today by Anthony Kavanagh. Kavana. Hi.

Thank you for having me. Finally, we meet.

We do. Thank you for being here. So if people are tuning in and they're like, who is Kavana? Could you tell us a little bit about you and your background?

Sure. Well, some people might remember me or know me as Kavana the 90s pop teen, idol, singer.

Heart throb.

Heart throb, apparently. Yeah, heart throb. And I had a string of hits in the late 90s, I Can Make You Feel Good was the big one that kind of launched me. Smash HIts Award, Poll Winner best male artist may I say as well. Well

Wel Done.

Dressed as Superman that day. And so that's my background. And then kind of disappeared for quite some time. I moved to the States, came back and tried to resurrect my career in bits here and there. And now, well, it's all in the book, but yeah, I've written a book myself and yeah, I'm really pleased with the reaction. So we've got

Pop scar. Pop scars.

Pop scars. It's a little play on words, pop stars.

Yeah. A memoir on Fame Addiction, The Dark Side and '90s Pop by Anthony Kavanagh because your actual name is not Kavana, it's Anthony Kavanagh.

Yes. That name is given to me. And also, I just want to say with the subtitle of the book, it was kind of decided quite quick. And as a first time author, you're so kind of pleased to have a book deal. It doesn't happen overnight. I mean, this was 10 years of me trying to write this. And then obviously it's about addiction, so they don't really go together trying to write a book when you're in the throes of addiction. But it isn't really about the dark side of '90s pop. It's more about, I guess, the dark side of addiction with some '90s pop thrown in, but also survival and silver lining. And it's got a lot of humour as well. I had to write with the humour.

Yeah. And we crossed paths because I was asked to write a review of your book for

The British

Psychological Societies magazine

Psychologist. Yeah. Which was so cool when that came in, I was like, yes, I totally want to do this. And I must say as well, Marianne, I had been dining out one of your quotes, which was, "This deserves to be a Netflix series." And by the way, I can't give too much away, but let's just say there's stuff going on in that department.

Okay. That's very exciting. But yeah, I'd messaged you and said, "I'm reading your book and I'm writing it. " And you'd said, "Please let me know when it's live." So that's how we cross paths. And you very kindly said you'd come on the podcast, so thank you. But when I was reading the book and seeing some of the reviews, people were saying, "Oh, it's hilarious."

And

Actually as a qualified psychologist, I read it and I just felt, it's not really funny, funny. It's painful. It felt tricky. I'm a mother as well. And we're not a million miles away. I think you're a few years older than me. I was really worried for you and everything you've been through. I found it painful. Even some of the things that happened that were more headline-y, some of the things that went wrong, I didn't find it hilarious, hilarious. I was just worried for you,

Anthony.

Right. Well, thank you, Marian. I do appreciate that. I think I wanted to write it in a ... I could never have written this without the length of sobriety that I've got now, recovery. And it took me a long time to get sober, like many failed attempts, many, many rock bottoms, which is kind of ... That term is used quite a lot, rock bottom, but I had quite a few and you're not ready until you're ready. But I've always had humour in my life. There's no doubt about it. I'm from an Irish background family northern on my mom's side. So you can imagine that mix. We've always seen the humour and stuff. And I was adamant I didn't want to write a pity memoir. And I don't want to say I'm funny because you can't call yourself funny, but life can be tragic and comedy as well at the same time.

So it wasn't forced how I wrote it. I didn't even know some things would land to be funny. So I guess different people have interpreted it different ways. So I appreciate that because it was painful at times. It's only by going back, can I write it like that? But I didn't want to ... It was not a guts get the violins out kind of thing. Yeah.

Okay. Thank you.

Yeah.

Let's think a little bit then, because I know that you had your first ever job that was working at McDonald's.

Yes.

And then were you fired from that? What

Happened

There? And then you said you're a pop star. That's quite the growth, isn't

It? Quite

The change.

Yeah. Well, I've just come back from Manchester because my mom's there, which we might talk about a bit later, but I walked past that very McDonald's. It's on Oxford Road and I thought blimey. I remember working there. I just left school. I didn't have many qualifications. I was dreaming of being a pop singer, to be honest. I wanted to get into music. I was musical. I could play the piano and sing a little bit privately. I was never a big show off singing. So I just got a job there to make ends meet. But yeah, I did get fired, which is a silver lining. As we look back, because if I wouldn't, I might now be area manager. Nothing wrong with that, but I wouldn't have used my talents I was given. Yeah, they have what's called a clean food bin. So when the food goes lukewarm, it goes into a clean bin, right?

It's still wrapped up. There's no dirt in there. And I helped myself to affiliate fish one day and I got a car and that was forbidden and I got fired. So that's how the book opens with that little ... No, it doesn't open without- It doesn't

Quite open

That. Open somewhere a bit more lately. Clear hanger as it opens later. But yeah, that's more the northern kind of Coronation Street part style where I'm in the ... Yeah, I'm in McDonald's and I get fired.

Yeah. Well, it all worked out initially well. Were you drinking already at that stage or did that come later?

No, I wasn't. I mean, I was drinking, but God, I mean, only like every teenage kid in my friends were. We'd go ... The night that I meet the manager that changes my life, we were on a bit of a pub crawl and that was the usual ... It's like you get to an age, I think I was 16. Well, I was 16 and you'd just go for a couple of pints on a Saturday night. You didn't really go to nightclubs. I think Friday nights I had my friends round from school and we'd drink cider in the bedroom. We'd play our tapes, we'd play our pop music and smoke a few sigs out the window, that kind of thing. But no, I mean, in those early days, there was no issue at all with alcohol. The normal

Limits, you could kind of

Take it or leave it. Yeah. And of course it's progressive as I now understand. But no, there was no issue at all at that point. No. Yeah.

So they were all kind of building you up and kind of waiting for the perfect time to launch you, and then ultimately it happened. And what was that like for you?

Well, it wasn't overnight as people could perceive it to be. Like I said, we went out one night, me and my friends, and we decided we were going to get into a nightclub and we tried to. We couldn't get in. And the third one, we were finally allowed in and it happened to be a gay nightclub. I was in the closet. My best friend was kind of in the closet, although he said he was bisexual. It was the era of swayed and blur, so that was kind of quite cool. And my cousin, who wasn't gay, and we got into this nightclub and in the corner of this nightclub was this manager who was very well known. And I went over to him, you don't have any second guessing when you're that age, you kind of walk through it. Well, I was so ambitious, but I was very naive.

Spoke to him, gave me his business card, went in on the Monday to his office with a demo tape that I made, and he signed me on the Friday. So within a week, I'd lost the job at McDonald's, met him, and then I get signed to the manager. And then it was 18 months, 18 months of learning how to write songs. He bought me a little studio, tiny little mobile recording studio in my bedroom, and I'd write songs every night, and then I'd go to singing lessons, which I write about, this teacher that was brilliant, who I went to see. And you do a bit of dance moves with the choreography, very slowly, but of course I wasn't in a boy band. So it was figuring out how that would work just on my own. And you just ... I got impatient. I was like, when is it going to happen?

When is it going to happen? But he knew what he was doing because all the labels, because he'd had so much success, the labels, so we got a bidding war and then we signed to Virgin Records and that's when it ... So 18 months later is when it really took off. And I'll always remember him saying, enjoy this time of preparation because once it starts, your feet won't touch the ground, and he was right. Okay. Yeah. So I was 18 then when it started. That's

A lot of change. We're

Talking

About 1995, 1996 sort of time

Are we? Yeah. 94 when I signed 96 when the first single came out. So yeah, 18 months, two years.

Yeah. What a lot of change. And what is that like then? So I know now, obviously with social media, things are a little bit different, but then what was it like the first time you got recognised?

Wow. Do you know what? I remember I was on the train to St. Ives to see my sister and brother-in-law because they lived there. And it wasn't that I was recognised, but they must have had the radio on the train. Or maybe I had my little walkman, you know you could get your radio on and they played my first single on radio one.

That must have been amazing.

Yeah. It wasn't like if it was a song called Crazy Chance and I wanted to tell everyone in the carriage, I was like, " I want the radio. "So I remember that very first moment, but the recognised thing, it happened slowly but surely. I mean, I was doing under 18s nightclubs. I write about that in the book and some of those- I was surprised

I wasn't there, frankly.

You may have been. Did you have a high ponytail in the Shell suit? Probably. It might've been you. So it was gradual and then suddenly you do start being recognised. I think my first TV appearance was live and kicking at eight o'clock in the morning singing live. And that's when it starts to, that's when you go in the supermarket or aside with your mom, like I always used to. I'd come home and do the normal stuff and then you see, oh bloody hell. But my mother was always telling people I was going to be famous. She was well known in the area, Rita, my mom. And then I'd walk up the Moston Lane where I lived and there'd be a picture of me in the butchers, she'd have give him like a signed picture or something, you know what I mean? I love that. Yeah, it was slow, but you just kind of slowly get used to it.

There was no immediate thing.

And I was think 14-ish when your big song came out, I can make you feel good. 14,

Right?

I think so. And I bought it. I bought the single as a big fan. Thank you. Thank you. But what I didn't know and what I think you weren't allowed to talk about was that you were gay and that must have been incredibly difficult to be having all this internal stuff going on for you, but having to, I guess, act ... Were you encouraged to act straight in the media?

No.

No.

There was no discussion about my sexuality. The manager knew I was gay. I never said I was gay, but he knew. I never came out to anyone. So I was hiding it from myself. I'd had no real experience, I suppose, with anyone my age of anything like that, of the same sex. But because my dream had come true, I sacrificed that. This was all I'd ever dreamed of. So that can go on the back burner. I'll meet someone eventually. I don't need to worry about that. And I'd got this new identity, you see. I'd become this name Kavana, so I was no longer Anthony. So I took that identity on.

I see.

It's

A little bit like a mask, like a costume you try on. So when you're Kavana, I do these sorts of things and say these sorts of things and go and sing on TV. Actually when I'm Anthony, I'll be hanging out with my mom and my mates, and it's like a split.

Yeah, absolutely. And I was actually quite happy to take on that identity because I was quite a shy kid. And obviously there's a bit of bullying at school and stuff like that because I did look, people used to say, is that a boy or a girl? Because I had the long hair. I was a bit these long eyelashes and I was a bit chubbier, a bit younger. So once I'd lost the weight, I got my haircut, I changed my name, or they changed my name, and so I became this new identity. So I kind of took cues from other pop singers, male my age, and they were all a bit cheeky, chappy. I suppose in the boy band, you'd have different identities, wouldn't you? You'd have the most serious one, you'd have the lady one, you'd have the more sensitive one. I was definitely the most sensitive one, but because I was on my own, I thought I better just become all of them, roll into one.

So I was very much still myself, but I did put on a bit of an act, like the kind of boy next door kind of thing.

That's such a lot of pressure though,

Isn't it? Yeah, I mean it was.

You are just one person.

How

Can we realistically expect you to be five?

Yeah, right. But that's what I wanted. And that's ... I assumed I was going to be asked to audition for a boy band when I first started, but no, I was told, "No, I think you should be on your own." It's like, well, look, I'll do anything. Yeah, okay.

Yeah. So it went really well. At one stage, I think in the book you said that you'd missed Madonna's call. I mean, that's a sign that things are going quite well, right?

Yeah. I had to get that in because- So what

Happened? Tell us a story.

So I'd go back to my mom and dad's. I was very lucky that I was able to buy them a house quite early on. I mean, so that's mad. We lived in a council house on a councillor state. My parents had me quite older. They're in the 40s when they had me. And so it wasn't really the place to ... I would get bullied and spotted and stuff like that. And I was quite ... Anyway, so we got this little small house. I would go back there at the weekends if I wasn't working. So if I wasn't doing radio on road shows up- You weren't

Being Kaverna, basically.

If I wasn't being Kavana, I guess. Yeah. I mean, it sounds weird talking about myself and the other ... Is it third person? Third person, yeah, third person. But yeah, if I wasn't being the pop singer and working or on tour or wherever, I would go back to my mom and dad's house because that's where I lived. I didn't buy myself a little flat. I bought a little family home for all of us because I was still quite young and naive. I didn't really know about buying my own ...

But even part of that, it sounded like that was kind of the management was suggesting maybe where your mom and dad were living wasn't really what pop stars would be doing. So you moved somewhere different, which was problematic as well.

Yeah. I mean, there was two houses. The first one, we did take them out of their area, but still more or less in the same area, but just on a more like a Brookside style ... You know, one of those show homes that you see? A bit

Of a development.

A bit of a development. Yeah. Funny enough, it's right near where my mom's care home is now. So I walked past it. It's funny. So I'd go back there. My best friend Andrew would still come and see me, the one who went in the nightclub with me, who I've known since I was a kid, and we'd just hang out like normal at the weekends. We used to on a Sunday. If I was off, it went straight back into being Antonint. Which must

Have been really grounding,

Actually. Oh, it

Was great.

Yeah. And we'd play our tapes and we'd do silly things and my dad would be downstairs watching his bullseye and my mom might be at bingo. It was dead northern. And I remember this one night, the Nokia rang, a bit heavier in them days, weren't there? Unknown number. I said, "I'm not answering that. " I said, "Who's ringing me on an unknown number here?" Your fan. You don't know who it is. I didn't answer it. Andrew was always, he started to see my popularity and all these new people in London that were my friends and he's like, "Oh, you're always talking on the phone." So I was very adamant not to answer. Anyway, I pick it up and it's a voice note from Madonna. She was with someone that I'd met at some party, a director. He told her about me. I don't know what it said, but she'd left a message and she was basically inviting me to a party in London and I've heard all about you, but you're not there.

And yeah, so long sucker. She said at the end, and then she put the phone down.

Oh.

Now me and Andrew used to play like a prayer nonstop. In fact, at one point, I think I write in the book, we had a shrine built to Madonna in my bedroom with candles because it was all- Imagine

If you'd answered that, but then would you

Have

Necessarily believed it'd been her? Well,

It was definitely her because I found out it was and you couldn't mistake a voice. And I was in Manchester. She was in London. It was eight o'clock at night. It was never going to work out. It wouldn't work, but my God, have I thought ... And I've been at parties where she's been in the room further when she was with Guy Richard, but I was too nervous to go over. But yeah, maybe one day I pass across again. You never know. But that was a wild ... Yeah.

Do you answer your unknown numbers now just in case?

No, I still don't answer the phone at all. I'm terrified I'm answering the phone. I don't really like the phone. I only text on WhatsApp, but no, I don't. But I did give everyone my pin code that night. You know you used to get- For your

VBMs.

Yeah. You know you could get it from a landline. You could go on a landline phone and get your pin code and listen to your voicemail. Oh,

That rings a bell. So everyone was listening into

Your older voice. I gave the pink code that night to everyone, yeah. I didn't record it. I wish I'd have Dr. Phone. Yeah. I didn't have one.

Before we continue, it's time for a quick behind the therapy room door moment brought to you by WriteUp, who are the practise management system I use in my own clinical practise. One thing that often comes up in trauma and addiction work is how important it is for people to feel safe enough to tell their story at their own pace. In therapy, the details of someone's experiences can emerge slowly over time, sometimes across many sessions. But for that work to happen, people actually need to be able to get to their sessions. And when someone is at a vulnerable stage in their recovery, small things like clear appointment reminders, easy communication and reliable scheduling can make a real difference in helping them stay connected to the work. Write up is trusted by over 50,000 clinicians. If you'd like to try it yourself, you can access a free trial for up to five users using the link in the description and the code Marianne 30.

Now back to the show. So things were going really well. When was the first sign that maybe things were starting to not go quite so well for you?

Well, I can only speak about my experience. We've seen the Louis Thuru documentaries and the boy bands and stuff like that. Obviously I did a show years ago called The Big Runion, which was slightly different documentary style edited in a certain way. I wasn't in the greatest place when we were filming that. But I remember the third single went top 10. Thank God that was, I can make you feel good. Second single went top 10. Sorry, fourth single went top 10. Then it was like number 16, but I was still getting top of the pops. Because you

Cos you Were Kavana right?

Yeah. And I kept getting magazine covers from ... Smash hits were just brilliant. There was an editor that took over called Gav who's passed away now, unfortunately, such an amazing, amazing guy. And he just kept putting me on the cover. Well,

You sold magazines, I guess.

I guess.

And I bought them.

Well, thank you. And just to see this magazine that I bought every two weeks for years.

Powerful start.

Yeah. And then there was the Smash Its Tours and then winning the awards, stuff like that. So that first round with that first album was great. Then I went over to Asia and that blew up and that was like nothing I'd ever experienced before because they loved, I guess, Teenidols from the UK and they loved soul music and my stuff was quite soulful. And anyway, then I left the manager. It just wasn't working out and I write about it better in the book.

But you lost your personal assistant at that time and it sounded like

She was

A real source of support.

Yeah, she was fantastic, Ying. And that was really sad because obviously she was part of his management. But yeah, you just started to ... It was the second album, basically. I went to Italy to record it. They pumped a lot more money in it as they did in those days. I had the Spice Girls producers on this one. So we lived there for three months in this beautiful villa and wrote the album from scratch every day. Had like a chef and an old Italian grandmother would look after us and we'd drive her. Didn't realise if it was all going on like, Bill, of course, because you don't. And that's fine. It was an amazing experience. My family flew out. And then the big comeback single for the second album, it went in at number 13, which these days would be seen as brilliant. And it was like, oh, okay, it's not gone top 10.

Now I'm getting cooler press. I'm getting the covers of attitude. I'm getting the gay press and a little more mature. I'd been to LA and worked out with this fitness trainer who becomes my dear friend. And so I'm more adult and grown up and I'm writing my own school.

You also spending loads of money

Because I spend money. I've got advice from accountant that-

Maybe it was mismanagement advice.

And I must never blame anyone from my past because that doesn't serve me or anyone else. But I could have made some better decisions or took better advice, let's say.

Hindsight is twenty twenty vision, as they

Say. Yeah. And then the single after that, I think went to number 26. It's like, oh my God, they're pumping money into it. But they kept shoving me out to Asia, which was doing brilliant.

Okay. I remember you told this story in the book that you came out of an event and usually there'd been throngs of girls screaming your name and you came out and there was nothing and they asked you when so- and-so was coming out. That must have been quite the adjustment as

Well. Yeah. I mean, some of the bands talk about it, how they would ... We'd all go on nights out sometimes and then go straight to GMTV, then ... Well, not GMTV, SMTV.

Still half drunk basically

And undersled. Other things you don't know. I was hanging out with people that were older than me because I wasn't in a band. So I'd be hanging out with the cool fashion people or the ... Still very lonely, but buying friends or meeting people at this cool place called the Met Bar, coming back to my hotel, I'm drinking, drinking. They all go home at three o'clock in the morning and I've got to be up at six for all self-imposed. And yeah, so I remember coming out of, this was the third sing of the second album and I talk about performing it and nobody really knew it. And I'm like, oh God. And then going outside and they'd always wait, the fans and they were kind of like, "Oh, cap, camp." Go over as I always used to. And when a step's coming out and I was like, "Oh, right.

Oh, okay. Will you go and ask them?" I'm like, "Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, of course." And so I used to- A bit

Crestfallen

Though. They

Weren't waiting for me.

They just wanted

Me to get the insider knowledge on steps.

Yeah. And it's those little things that start to chip away and then you've got the rest of the day to yourself because you're in London. There's nothing in the diary that day. So you're back in your hotel room. Of course, I didn't realise I had addiction issues at this point. So you've

Got the mini bar in the corner. Got

The mini bar, you go, but you've got the gym in the hotel, so you do a bit of that.

Then you've earned a drink though,

Right? You learned a drink and then it started to change effect on me the drink. It started to comfort me and give me, just be able to switch off from this kind of- Well,

Because it's kind of an anaesthetic, isn't it? It takes the edge off. And that's why it can very quickly become problematic

If

You've got more and more problems rising.

Yep, absolutely. In the background, my father had cancer, so there was all that going on and the funds were going down, but I was still so young.

Still spending like a millionaire though.

I was still spending a lot, but not necessarily ... I wasn't buying sports cars and going to stripper clubs and being wild. I was just careless with it.

But then if you think it's going to last forever, then you do make different decisions,

Don't

You, at that

Time? Yeah. And like I say, I take full responsibility. It's brought me to where I am. I mean, I'm glad to have had these experiences and that's when it started to change slightly. But luckily I'd made enough money to ... I felt quite shameful that my career was over at 21. That's how I perceived it. And that's when I moved to LA like you do. I mean, like you do. I mean, I'm saying- To try

And break America?

Well, yeah. I mean, I say like you do because it was so random and it was quite delusional. But yeah, I'd saw all this success in Asia and it was me and a lot of American artists in the charts. And I just kept thinking, you know what? I'd already met this person, this fitness trainer who became my best pal. And so I went out there and that was a whole different ... Well, that's a whole few chapters in there, the Hollywood-

The Hollywood years.

The Hollywood years, which isn't as glamorous as it sounds as we know, but there was some life changing, beautiful moments, but also there was some darkness there because I was free. I was 21 years old, nobody knew of anything of my past. Only the good stuff I showed them. You get the 01 visa, you pay for it with a lawyer. So the 01 says he had all this success. You show the magazine covers, you show the huge hits of the awards, the Smashics Awards. They don't know what Smashes Award is. It could be a British- Something you bought from

The trophy shop down the

Road. Yeah. Or it could be something really esteemable. I mean, I guess it was in the pop world, and that's when I moved out there. Yeah, 21.

When was the Red Jogging Bottoms era? Was that back in the UK or was

That in- That was towards the end. I've just seen them in my drop. You

Still

Got them?

Oh wow.

The Adidas.

If people aren't sure about that, tell us what I mean by the red jogging buttons.

Well, there's three ... Well, I'd say there's ... I actually wrote this, and this sounds quite garny. I wrote it in three acts, this book, act one, act two, and act three. Act one is the pop years. Act two is me going to Hollywood, trying to make it, not making it, coming back with my tail between my legs, no money, a tan and a transatlantic, weird transatlantic accent.

So you looked hot.

I looked good because I was still getting away with it, but there was this slow burning addiction that got hold of me. And then act three- Were you

Aware of that at that stage, do you think?

I knew. Yeah. I mean, I knew there was something, but I was in so much denial, Marian, I think I think that we weren't as informed as we are now about addiction, especially mental health, because I think addiction is a mental health issue. There's no doubt about that. And I had a lot of pride and shame, and I was still very ambitious. And it hadn't turned on me to the point where the red jogging buttons, and that's I say in the act three part of the book where game over, I think there's a chapter called Game Over, where I'm just at rock bottom. And so that's one of the final rock bottoms where I was in full addiction, dangerous, very dangerous addiction. Drugs were involved as well. And in the rooms of recovery, you hear people's stories where they wear the same clothes for shower.

And a friend of mine who was in recovery used to say, I knew when you was in trouble or when you was relapsing or when you was in the dark, you weren't getting better because you'd have the red jogging bottoms on me. I hadn't washed or changed for a week or two.That was towards

The

End.

And was anyone looking out for you at that time or were you kind of deaf to their voices, even if they were?

People tried, but as we know, it's addiction once you isolated on your own. And what are you going to do? You need your fix. You need your ... For me, it was alcohol and it started with alcohol and it finished with alcohol. I would never have touched drugs without alcohol. Alcohol did for me something very different than it does the normal drinker, which is something that I've finally ... Well, not finally, but something that I understood once I got into recovery and got a bit of time behind me. There's a whole thing about it being an allergy and stuff like that and the phenomenon of craving, stuff like that. For me, it lit up my brain in a way. It gave me energy. So it gave me confidence. It gave me energy. It didn't really calm me down. But also I had this once- So

It lit you up really?

It lit me up. And the craving ... What I couldn't get my head around is I could be having a really good day, right? And the thought of a drink would not enter my head. And I might have just got sober again and life is starting to get good again. This is why I kept relapsing. It's important for anyone listening to who might understand, might relate to this. And out of nowhere, I would get this blind spot that would say, "Have a drink." Now, I know what's happened in the past. As

Like a little voice in your head?

Yeah. Well, yeah, I guess, you want to call it that. Against all evidence that's happened in the past because of my drinking, that goes out the window. It's like I'm in a trance or I was in a trance. And so it wasn't a craving for a drink. It was just a blind. It would just go have a drink. And I had no defence. So I'd pick up the first drink thinking I'll just have one and that's when the craving began. Once it goes in my system-

One's never enough, right?

Once it goes in the system, exactly, the craving began. And then some days it might just get- Like you've lit

The blue touch paper, as

They say. Yeah. And some days it would just be a bottle. Some days it might end up being a three day a bender where I just can't stop. But you can be sure it would always end in some kind of episode of something not good. Yeah.

And during this journey, you say in the book

That

You're on Loose Women.

Yes.

And I have to confess that I did put the book down at that stage and I Googled that.

Yeah. I mean, I think some people have said the same thing. That's

A hard watch actually.

I'd come back from America and I remember going into a ... I'd had all these new songs that I'd written with some great writers, very different sound and was really proud of them because I did do some good stuff out there. It wasn't all chaos. And I went for some label meetings, said I'm back. It felt

Really energising.

There's lots of

Drive going

On. Yeah. I was like, "I'm back and I'd love to ... " And they said, "Well, you kind of need to do a reality TV show." I'd been away for 10 years. When I was 21 and left after the career finished the first time, there was no jungle to go in. There was no big brotherhouse. There was no-

There was no Instagram either to-

There was nothing like that. Maintain

Your presence.

No, you could ... And so I said, "Oh, right." And I was kind of running out of money fast. I couldn't even pay my parents' mortgage something. What do I do? What do I do? So I found this ... I was asking people, there's only reality shows about asking agents, well, there's this one called Greece is the word. What's that? And you

Look a bit Danny Zukoy,

Right? Right. Somebody said that at the time, maybe more like Jhon Vaulter now these days, but nothing wrong with that. We love John. So I was like, "Oh, right. Okay. I'll do that. " So I lined up for this talent show and the next thing you know, I'm on it every week with all these theatre kids and I'm auditioning for the part of Danny Zoo Club on national television every week. And I kept getting put through every week. Long story short, I didn't win. The other guy won who deserved it much more. He's from stage who's 19 years old. I was like 32 trying to get my career going, but the public did keep voting me and I was very grateful for that. You

Captured the hearts, I guess.

Yeah. And I got to sing on Do What I Love Again. Amazing. It was kind of like an X-Factor style show really, because we just sang every week. And my addiction was in the background. I was still drinking and even in some of those shows, some of those live shows, I'd have to have a couple of drinks in the toilet before I went on. Nobody knew. And I got put on loose swimming to talk about a record that was coming out off the back of that and that my old label put out a greatest hits or whatever you want to call it. And I went out the night before, as we do, I think we call it self-sabotage. Just go out for one.

Right.

Well, this one turned into 100 and the rest, other stuff. And I just woke up in this couple of strangers' house through a very, very nice actually and they said, "Oh, you okay?" I'd got the car to pick me up there for iTV and I just was in hell, like the worst hangover. At that point, I discovered hair of the dog, and that was the real change in my drinking. Once the hair of the dog was introduced, oh boy, I could get away with ... Well, I thought I got this cure. Oh my God, I can function again. Never have

To have a hangover again.

This is amazing until it wasn't. And I remember just, I wasn't just hungover where you need a couple of paracetamol. I was like- You were

Unwell.

I was very unwell. I had the DTs, which I'd never had before, which I now understand is that your nervous system shot, your body's craving more because of the way my system is. And I remember-

Your body was dependent on

Alcohol. I was alcoholic. And I remember the driving there thinking, "How can I do this live interview? I'm literally shaking." And I stopped off. I said to the driver, "You need to stop." I remember running into an SO garage or whatever I said it was in the book. And the only thing that ... I had something quick. It's not going to smell vodka. Of course, it smells. We just alcoholics pretend that it doesn't ... And I just out of fear glugged the whole thing and next thing you know, I'm on live television and it could have been 10 times. It could have been a lot worse, but by the skin of my teeth, I got through it. But yeah, it wasn't- I

Think it was the artful interviewing style of

The

Ladies on the panel that

Really

Helped move that along, but it was-

Well, thank God. I mean, I was a loose cannon in that studio. I mean, apparently at the time my agent called me the next day, I write about it. I mean, they ended up in some bedsiting Paddington. I'd woke up thinking, "Oh, I ended up back here. What happened yesterday?" I didn't remember. I started getting blackouts. I thought blackouts meant you fell to the floor and blacked out. Not that you functioned. But

Had no memory of it.

And had no memory. Your memory shuts down.

And mine

Just happened to be on national television. And he said, "You banned from ... You can never go on that show again." Right. So I got a band. I mean, they lifted it a few years later when I went to my first rehab. They said, "Oh, will you come on and talk about it? "

But

I had nothing to talk about. I didn't want to just go on. So

I think I saw on your Instagram yesterday that you're now four years clean.

Four years sober clean, yeah, which has gone by crazy fast the last couple of years. And I was one of those guys that couldn't get four hours, four minutes sometimes. It's a

Real celebration, lots to be proud of.

Yeah. And thank you. And it's not just about putting that down the source of medicine, because for me it was towards the end. It's about living without it, actually, and what tools do we put in place to get by. And so I'm just really grateful that the last ... I mean, just being able to write a book, I know that I was in no way intoxicated. It just literally came to me.

It's

Just you, right? It's just

Me. Just

You. And I wasn't trying to impress. I didn't know who would read it. I really enjoyed ... People say, oh, is it hard to write? It actually wasn't. There was moments where I wrote about my sister who passed away, but I never dealt with any of that stuff at the time.

Buried it deep, right?

I buried it deep and I was drinking on it and great excuse to drink. My sister's died, my father's died, my mom's got Alzheimer's, but I almost have processed it now through writing. So it's been a great experience actually. And the most important part about it to me is the feedback that I get from readers who thought it might be one thing, but I've seen that it's something

Else. You

Can

See that it's been, how it's

Been

And then now how it's going and how actually that's possible

Even for

Someone that is having to drink every day,

Every hour. Absolutely. And I am in no way an article about recovery. My recovery is not perfect. Okay. I haven't touched any drugs or drink, but I still make mistakes. Will do. It's thinking

About finding your

Adaptive

Coping

Strategies. Yeah, absolutely. But I know this morning about ... We swapped a couple of texts. I hadn't actually looked at them until I was about to leave because I have to do certain things every morning to put- To keep you well. ... to keep my head in the right place. So for me, I pray to a God that I don't understand or that isn't a holy God. I ask for ... Let me be useful today. Let me guide me if you want. Good, oddly direction, God, if that's what you want to call it, because my thinking and my willpower got me nowhere. It got me into some bad places. And- So

You're kind of drafting in another

Way? Yeah. I just say you drive today. My driving's not very good as we know. So can you drive? And I have a really cool relationship with, call it a higher power if you want.

There's a bit like accountability maybe as

Well.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

But it's not always easy. So I don't drink. I haven't drank now for about 18 months.

Wow.

Okay. I'd never really problematic.

Yeah.

Just I thought, I don't think I need this. And our produce today, Stu, and I went to an event, was it late last year? Yeah. Other people don't necessarily like you not drinking, do they? People are bringing drinks around on trays at events and

Trying

To top me up with Rose or

Fecco

Or whatever. And it's like actually I don't drink and I have something ... I was having to ask and I have something non-alcoholic and almost shunning me and like, "Ooh, oh, I don't know. We'll have to go to the bar." Yeah. And

It's with elderflower cardio or something.

I wouldn't have

Minded that, but

They were happy to walk around just topping you up. It isn't easy to be sober. We bought some kombucha here today.

Yeah, I love kombucha, actually. Yeah.

It's not easy always to be the person that's not drinking. And especially if people around you have been problematic drinkers or are, they will want you to drink with them, won't

They? Yeah. I mean, I lost a lot of friends once I

Properly got sober, but I also will say, and that's nothing to do with them or me, it's just the way things are. You stop getting invited to things and that's probably fair enough because I was probably a nightmare towards at some points in my drinking. But I remember that first year in relating to what you said, Marianne, that first year of my proper sobriety where I thought I've got ... Rehab's a part of my story I've been twice, but the last one I went to where I nearly died before I went in, I came out and I was like, "This is it. I've got to take this seriously now." So I started going to meetings. There's all different types of meetings. They call it 12 step recovery. You know there's meetings out there, AA, NA, whatever you want to call it. So I would do that, but I didn't go anywhere.

I didn't go anywhere. I lived like a hermit actually, not in a depressing way, but I would get invited to things or even family events and I'd have to put boundaries and say, "Do you know what? " You can't

Trust yourself at that

Stage. Yeah. And I just can't be around it for a while. Maybe not because I was going to drink, but because how uncomfortable I felt. All my receptors were going, "Oh yeah, this reminds me of that. " Or even when I go back to Manchester at this point, I'd go and see my mom and I'd pass all the pubs I used to sometimes sitting on my own towards the end when I was depressed or even in London, they're everywhere. Familiar

Strangers, but also triggers.

So I really just had to ... And I say to people-

Reinvent yourself.

Yeah. Yeah.

Who is Anthony

When he

Doesn't drink?

Absolutely.

Where does he go? What are his interests?

Yeah.

What does activate you? What do you look forward to? What do you like?

Yeah. Yeah. And I had no idea because it was all squashed out. Because you'd

Always done it with alcohol as well.

Yeah. I mean, the last few years, I couldn't even sometimes pick up the phone without having a drink. I couldn't ... I mean, yes, there was a lot of trauma be involved. There was deaths. There was all stuff going on in my family.

It's a sign you needed support as well.

Yeah. But I think when you find such a quick version of support in alcohol, which was around the corner- It worked every time, right? Oh my God. It promised me so much for a while and it did. It soothed me instantly, but it also eventually took everything away. But yeah, slow and steady, I was told, slow and steady and just for today, I'm just not going to have a drink today. Okay? Sometimes I'd be holding on by the skin and I just thought I just can't. But I would go to meetings, you see, and I'm looking- Of that

Community.

Yeah. And by the way, I always thought AA meetings would be people sat around moaning, complaining, whatever. I've never been in a place where there's so much laughter. People don't really talk so much about the drinking. They talk about their life in general. I mean, there was a lady in a meeting the other day talking about a washing machine breaking down.

But you were invested in that

Story, right? Yeah. And we love- Because you're

Part of something. I think that's the thing with AAM recovery groups, is that because drinking can be very social, we can also be very antisocial, can't it? But you come together quite often. So then when you're coming out the other side, replicating or creating a different community that you feel part of can be really part of the solution.

Absolutely. And you get access to the 12 steps, which sounds very cultish and very ... But it's not. It's just a very simple design for living. And the only way to understand it is by going, I suppose. And I'm not perfect at it. It's just kind of ... Each one's in order for a reason from one to 12. And by the time you get to 12, that's more about your spiritual side. So serving, helping others or ... No outside stuff is going to fix me. I realise that now. Listen, it was great to get number one pop bestsello and this came unbelievable. Great to get ... Oh my God, the dopamine in my brain was after nothing for years and suddenly people are giving me good reviews. Well,

I loved it.

Thank you so much. But I have to be careful of that stuff because I won't get cocky, but I'll miss it when it goes.

But it's not Cavanaugh that I liked. It's Anthony.

Yes. Thank you. Anthony wrote this. Good. But Anthony used to write his songs as well. Again, I'm talking about myself. But this is the true version of me, but I had to go through all that to be able to write it. And there's a reason it took so long for it to work. Doors kept closing it. We're not interested. And then suddenly when the time was right, they were ... Okay.

So tell us about you now. What have you got coming up? What's in your life now, Anthony?

Right. Well, just for today, I'm here doing this lovely podcast with you, Stu. And I'm just trying to enjoy it. I'm really trying to ... I have to put my recovery first because if I don't, then before I know it, just my head goes. And what I mean by that is radio, there's a bad radio. It tells me things that aren't true. It's based in fear a lot of the time. I have a great relationship with my family, what's left of my family, mainly my aunties and my mom and my cousins and stuff. Obviously, my mom is Alzheimer's. She's 89. She's in a care home, and she's featured a lot in the book. She is. Yeah. And I wanted to write that. In fact, the book finishes with me and her, doesn't it? The scene and the care home. And I get to be present.

I'm not always comfortably present, but I get to be present. And I understand now that feelings are not going to kill me. I know that I have, and anyone listening, has survived 100% of everything they've ever worried about. And I go to meetings, my creativity's back. I'm going back out to Asia, which is crazy because I've not been there for 25 years. Interestingly, as Kavana, if you like, because I was so ashamed of that version of me for so long that I've now realised that I can still be that just in a different way because some people do still listen to me and like that version. So I'm kind of seeing- I still love

That song. I still hear it

On the

Radio

While

I'm still dancing and

Singing. Thank you.

It's like an energizer. It's you and Umbup, I would say.

Right. I'm happy with those two. I remember that at the same time you came out. And yeah, I mean, I try not to talk about too many things that I'm working on because I did that in the past and then it wouldn't work the way I thought it was going to work. I just kind of take it- You are

Where you are.

I am where I am. But my ambition is back in a healthy way and I- Good. I hate to say this, but it's the only way I can describe it. I feel somewhat validated again as a human, as an artist, as a writer. An author. As an author. I mean, they say once you get sober or recovery, whatever you want to call it, you'll get a life that you never imagined. And that doesn't necessarily mean the life that you dreamed of, but I could never imagine A, being sober and I could never imagine being an author. And that's kind of where I'm at today. But yeah, I definitely want to do more and there's more stuff, kind of possible adaptations from the book and-

Amazing.

Yeah.

Well, I'm so pleased. And I could never have imagined that Kavana, Anthony, would be so lovely and that when I messaged him, he would reply.

Absolutely. You gave such a great interview.

Thank you.

Yeah. And review of the book here.

Yeah. So thank you for being-

Thank you for having me.

And wishing you best with everything that comes next. So at the moment as we record, the hardback book is out, but the paperback is coming out in the summer, is that right?

Yeah, the paperback's out in the summer. It'll be slightly differently packaged and a few little surprises. And the audio is the thing that's really blown up, which I read myself, which God bless your ears because it's eight hours of me talking, but the audio is available too and the hardback Amazon or some bookshops.

Perfect. So where can people follow you on Instagram?

So my Instagram is Kavana, K-A-V-A-N-A undersscore_real, R-E-A-L. Kavana_real.

Perfect. Thank you so much.

Message me. I always kind of look at my DMs and messages. You

Do. You're very

Kind. You're

Very kind. Thank you very much for your time.

Thank you for having me. It's been brilliant.