We are graced by the presence of Makeda Joi, an escort based in Atlanta, GA. In this episode we talk about privilege, acceptance, compassion, toxic masculinity, and we do it with gusto!

Makeda Joi's Links:

• Website: MakedaJoi.com
• Twitter: @makedajoi

Things We Talk About:

• Full Service Podcast with Tank
• Atlanta Strip Club Magic City Article

(Check out Part Two's show notes, because I am definitely missing some here.)

Podcast Links:

• Patreon: patreon.com/SexyGalaxyPod
• Website: parkerwestwood.com/podcast/
• Twitter: @SexyGalaxyPod
• ANSWER-Detroit: answerdetroit.org

. Welcome to A Sex Worker's Guide to the Galaxy where the answer to life, the universe, and everything is sex workers. I'm your host, Parker Westwood. And today, I am joined later on, not at this present moment, by Makeda Joi for a fantastic interview. They're a provider based out in Atlanta, Georgia. They were connected to me via Tank from Full Service podcast, which we give a shout out to, but I'll shout out again, because you should check it out if you haven't. Again, that's Full Service podcast. This interview does have some voice distortion, so if Makeda sounds a smidge like a squirrel, that is why. There we-- they were-- they requested for their privacy, a little voice distortion, and I learned how to do it so that security could be had by all. Um, and it was a fun learning process. I've-- I've told you before many, many a time that I like to learn things. And I do, and it was fun. And now I know how to do it for future interviews. Okay, so in this interview, we discuss some Twitter drama. We set a timer, so we only talk about it a little bit, but it is important to go into because we talk about the importance of understanding nuance and having compassion. And we talk about privilege, and we kind of break down some Twitter drama that happened and try to pick apart some meaningful pieces in it. We talk about joy as a way to cultivate resilience, and then we talk about ways to cultivate joy, both in client appointments and on our own. We talk about privilege, yet again, not just in in regards to this Twitter drama, but we talk about the variety of privilege that there, that exists, that we all have it, some form of it anyway, and the shame around admitting privilege and confronting privilege and accepting that we have it. And we get to talk about whiteness and some other things. We also get to talk about toxic maxulinity, toxic masculinity, which is a lot in one interview. And we have fun while we're doing it. There's a lot of laughter. I found out Makeda has a great taste in music, so stick around. Give her a listen and let me know what you think. Before we get into everything, I just want to remind everyone that we do have a podcast? **laughter** Of course, we have a podcast. I just want to remind everyone that we have a Patreon, and 50% of the Patreon proceeds go directly to ANSWER Detroit, A Network of Sex Workers to Excite Revolution, a sex worker justice collective based out of Detroit. And we recently voted that the podcast money is going to go directly to sex worker exclusive art events, which we had one already. It was a blast. It was a live nude drawing event. We're hoping to do other things with like clay and all sorts of other stuff. And this is something that I'm personally very passionate about, and it relates to this podcast in that I believe telling our own story in whatever way we choose to express our story and ourselves is truly revolutionary and so important. So that is a thing. So if you want to support that work and this podcast, which does help me to be able to do this more often, 'cause we in a recession, y'all. Yeah. Go to the Patreon. Support the podcast. If you can't do that right now, that's totally okay. Leave a review. That's super helpful. If you leave a review, say some kind words, suggest it to a friend. Just spread the love y'all and keep listening. I'm really glad you're here. You're really great. With all of that. I think that's all the things. Oh, it's been some months, I suppose I should say something about that. Um, it's been some months. I have taken the time I need to move at the speed of creativity, to move at the speed of life. And it seems like there was I did try, at times to reach out to people for interviews, and it seemed like every-- everyone was kind of on the same page. There was a lull. I like to think about it in a creative sense, where it's like there's creation, destruction, recreation, right? And it's this cycle and recreation being like recreation, and that can also include rest, but it's this cycle, right? And so we go through this creative streak, and then there's this destructive period, and in the creative process, there's this point of recreation or rest or play where a lot of great ideas are born. Okay, I will get off my little soapbox about creation and stuff. I'm about to walk into a very deep period of creativity. So I've been thinking about this a lot, but I just wanted to say thank you. You all have been so patient and kind and still hyping me up, even when I haven't been putting out episodes. And I'm excited to be putting out episodes more regularly again, so thanks for giving me the space, and let's get back into it. Okay, now that I've covered all of those things, I'll actually get off of my creativity soapbox for the moment. Let's get into this juicy interview with Makeda Joy. Queue music. Listeners, I am here with Makeda Joi, who is a joy, and you're going to find that out shortly. So welcome, Makeda.

Hey, girl. Hey,

do you will you take a minute to tell us your name, your pronouns, where you're located and what kind of sex work you do or have done, sure,

Sure. So name is Makeda Joi. Pronouns, she her based in Atlanta, Georgia, home of the world's busiest airport. And I am an escort. I am a companion.

Fantastic. Umm... Cool. And I want to take a second to do a little Tank shoutout. Um,

please. Shout out the homie, yes, please.

Do you want to? Do you want to say how, how we got connected?

I will, I will. I will tell the tale of love. So, so once upon a time, in a land far far away, I was on Spotify trying to desperately find new podcasts on the industry, and found Full Service and just fell in love. Then saw that Tank was in Atlanta, promptly lost my shit, and, like, consumed all these episodes, and then found out that, like, he had just ended the show. And I was like, wait, what? Like, I just, I just got to the party and, like, there's no food left. Um, so I reached out to him on on Twitter, and just sent him a DM. And I was just like, hey, I just found out about the show. I know you just ended but, like, it's been really meaningful to me. I love what you're doing yadda yadda yadda. Since you're not doing the show anymore, who-- what podcast in the industry do you love, you respect? And you know, A Sex Worker's Guide to the Galaxy was absolutely on that list, and he just talking about how he loved you, etc, etc. On and on. Parker's the shit. And so I messaged him, like, I don't know, a couple of weeks later. And I was like, okay, so real. Like, what would it take for you to come back? Like, what bribe do you need? And I really told him I appreciated him, because in the industry one, you don't really get to hear something from the perspective of a client

09:09

True.

Like that really honors and respects the industry and the workers. So I really appreciate that, that and then to like the voice of like a person of color, of, you know, a black person, and in Atlanta, like this triple threat. And I was like, Yo, I don't, I don't want to take no for an answer. So anyway, instead of just like, meeting up, just like, as friends, like for drinks, and had a really great time, and, you know, he was just like, why don't you just, like, are you gonna reach out to Parker? Like, what are you gonna do? I was like, I don't know. I'm not ready. Like, bullshit you need to-- He was not having it. I don't know if he had like too much mezcal at that point. Anyway, so I, like, left there, and then that's when I messaged you. And I was just like, yeah. That tank told me to, like, Stop messing around. And so anyway, that is how love for tank turned into new love for Parker. And so shout out to tank, yeah, and how the full service podcast, like, still, like people still download it and listening to it like he's off doing another thing and like, it's still is serving people. So

Absolutely yes. Shout major. Shout out to tank. The I did an interview with tank on full service podcast a while ago, and everyone should go check out that podcast. Even though he's not making it anymore, it's there's plenty of episodes to binge. Go do it. Let's get let's get into the other stuff now that we've praised Tank a whole bunch. So Tank, I hope you're feeling, hope your ears are burning, or your nose is itching, or whatever that saying is, right,

10:47

the precursory, like Tank praise, yes, and then, like he has to feel it somewhere in the ether. So, all right, I'm all yours. Girl. What we doing? What we talking about today?

Yeah, I was curious. So you're, you're newer to the industry, correct?

I am.

How did you, how did you get started? What's the origin story?

So I have long been fascinated by sex work. I don't know. I think you hear that a lot about people in this industry, there's been some like originating childhood fascination, shots out to HBO, like Real Sex, like the 90s that made like sex and like the appearance of it palatable and accessible. If you wanted to turn the volume down to one or two, while youre parents are in the other room. Hopefully, um, so, yeah, I really appreciate, like, I was always fascinated by dancers. I think part of that is also growing up in in Georgia and, you know, Magic City here in Atlanta has been dubbed like the, like, best, most influential strip club in the world at a point and like, where Hip Hop legends are born. Actually, there was a really good article about it in GQ several years ago about how, like, Magic City impact the ecosystem of hip hop.

Wow.

Outstanding. Um, so, like, yeah, like, dancing was always something that I admired, and I was like, I couldn't quite get that. I was too much of a southern Christian good girl at the time, damn it, Jesus. Oh my god. Oh my god. I wasn't like, a choke hold. I just wanted to be a hoe so bad, I was trying to wear a petticoat girl and ???.

**Laughter**

Oh, my God, so, oh yeah. So I was able to, like, experience sex work through, like, movies and media. So, like, I learned about Geisha Memoirs of a Geisha. Obsessed. Can like, like, do the whole script? Have you ever heard of Harlots on Hulu?

Yes, I have.

Oooooh. I love, love, love that show.

That one. I really enjoy that one.

It's so good! I will not get any spoilers. But when old girl died. I was like, no, like, you're not supposed to

Mhmm.

That one is so good. Um, what's another? Oh, there's a documentary I saw years ago called Whore's Glory. And have you seen this one?

I have not seen that one.

Okay, so it was on Netflix, and it followed sex workers in it was either India or Bangladesh, Mexico and Thailand. And it also showed like, not only how they, you know, saw clients and how they worked, but also like the spiritual lives that they had, and how there was this balance in these worlds that are, seemingly in so many cultures, like completely juxtaposed. Like in Thailand, they would just, you know, go to the temple before they went to work and or even, like the sex workers in India, like after they saw a client, they would, like, cleanse off the bed with like, like fire and herbs and like, dump water. Like it was these whole rituals that they all had. I was like, This is amazing. This is so fascinating. So every time I just would be able to come in contact with the industry in some way, however, it was tied to culture.

Mhmmm.

I was just always fascinated by that. And then I guess in this chapter, it became like presented to me. I learned about femme domme and the BDSM community. And Fin domme! And I was fascinated by fin domme. I was, like, a pay-pig?. What?! I was, oh my god, you know, shout out to Euphoria. Is like, how I started, like, Oh my God. I just found, like, so many different paths. So I was like, you know, is this my thing? And, like, you know, fin domme and, and then learning, you know, Twitter and, like, sex work Twitter, and then somebody ended up on a feed of Dom's who was an escort. And I was like, It's my people. Yes. That's-- Yes! Oh, my God. Oh. It was like, I don't know. It's like, finding, like, the best digital summer camp in the world. And so all of that. So, like, that's my long journey. It really has been like a long tale of, like appreciation and observation of sex work throughout, like history, like human history. I've read the Kama Sutra, like the original, translated texts. So, like, sex work is just something that I have holding high reverence, but I didn't ever know what my place was or a possibility was for me, and so when I saw like companionship, I was like, oh, oh yeah, that's, but that's it. That's, that's it. So here I am. I am fairly new to this extent of the industry, but, yeah, I come in with, like, a lot of appreciation, and I guess, a lot of other facets in my life that make this very easy, I think, for me to swallow and participate in and really respect.

Excellent. I love that. And how--

Long answer.

I know that's a great I love I love long answers. I love them. Um, what, when about, about, when did you become Makeda Joi? Like...

It was actually in November. So it happened to be not long before, it was a few weeks before my birthday, and I-- that's when I did it too! Was in November?!

I had my first client on my 30th birthday.

Really!? You better celebrate!

No, yeah, it was great. It was so fun.

Oh, wow. That is really, like, Pivotal. That's like walking through, like, a arc of your life. Oh my God. Parker.

I think there's something about the birthdays thing, because I've heard that from a few people, like, it's close to a birthday.

Interesting. Um, I guess. I mean, I didn't know, of course, I didn't plan it around my birthday. And I know you didn't plan, like, I'm gonna do this on my birthday. I'm getting me a present. God damn, give me that deposit.

**Laughter**

No, I think, like when I found that this was available and possible for me and like, it jived with who I am, yeah, I was so excited. And like consuming and creating and like, ready and like, talking to people and reaching out for, like, mentorship and like, Where can I get information? And before I even, like, launch my website, I had my Twitter. I might have had seven tweets, somebody found my emails, like, Hey, I see you. And like, immediately, like, booked into the deposit. And I was just like, Okay, shoot, something's happening in the Ether. Um, but yeah, I think that at any other time in my life, I would not have been ready. So it just happened to line up with my birthday. So something's happening in the stars, if it's happening around people's like, birthdays. That's such a cool story. I didn't know that about you, or that that you've heard that like, that's a theme.

Yeah. It's interesting when you kind of can see some patterns, whether they're coincidental or not. You know, it's like,

Yeah.

It's really interesting.

Could you have done this? Like, if your first client was on your 29th birthday. Or do you think there was something about where you were at 30?

Oh, 100% there was something about I would have anytime before my 30th birthday, I would have been a hot mess.

Wow.

Full disclosure, everyone, you're welcome that I waited till I was 30. Yeah, it's, I think, I think there is a thing about, like, you-- when you're ready, you're ready. And there's, there's a there's a bit of-- we were talking about this in our, our first conversation, before we we did the-- were doing the interview. But there's some privilege to that where, like you're in a privileged position to be able to take the time to do whatever research and ground make ourselves feel comfortable entering in to this industry.

I'm sorry I'm cutting you off because you're free. No, go ahead. Do it. It, no. So like that word privilege. Like it, it. I know it feels like it thumps a nerve in me, because I feel like privilege has become a bad word

Totally. And it's not.

It's not. I think it's like, what do you choose to do with your privilege. Everybody has some level of privilege. Like, I remember, remember, like, on YouTube a couple of years ago, there were these videos going around about, like, pretty privilege. Oh, like, pretty privilege. Okay, shit, let's talk about it. So all privilege isn't just like white male privilege, although that is potent and old and strong,

Potent is a good word for that.

It is a *thick* concentrate

**laughter**

throughout history. So like there is, like you're saying, like, the age by which you came into this industry, I came in, and it's not the same, because, you know, for everybody at that age, but I think that the privilege of the age is the life experience. It doesn't, you know, talk about what your financial situation maybe your health or whatever, brings you to this again, because this level is kind of, but absolutely a privilege. There's no way you know even before you know, before I my birthday that and I'm 35 now. So I was 34 and some change when I started. I could not have done this at 33 definitely could no--. I could not have done this in my 20s, and it had nothing to do with, you know, other privileges, attraction or or education or whatever. It was, just like my pure like mindset.

Yeah.

My approach to business, my beliefs about my own body and myself, or societal rules, or, you know, all these things that keep somebody locked inside or unavailable to whatever. Totally. So I've never considered age as a privilege, because I hear so much ageism, not just in culture, but in this industry. Do you see that? Or is that just on my feed? Oh no, that's that is definitely there. There's, I mean, there's ageism, specifically around women in our culture, not even just in our industry, but it's very glaring in our industry. Mhmm.

Um, and I think the privilege doesn't necessarily come with age I think the privilege that we're talking about here is like the privilege to have the space to do whatever healing work or maturing, or whatever it might be, to get to the place where we can do this work without self harming. Yeah, I think that that's a that's a huge thing. Because I think you can, I don't. I think there are some instances where it doesn't matter how old you are, you can feel like you have to do this work in and in order to survive, right? There's like sex work where you're just like,

Right. Absolutely.

I don't have the space to do the healing that I need to do, to do this without, like, triggering myself in a certain way, or, like, whatever I need the money.

Yeah.

And so the privilege I see is not necessarily with age here. It's more that, like, we've had the space and the resources to be able to prepare and like be mentally grounded,

Definitely space, definitely resources to be able to do that work. Oftentimes, time can allow those things, not always, but oftentimes, those resources come with time. So as you get older, more access to these things, just through exposure. And it's interesting in the context of, you know, doing this work to survive. We know the concept of, like survival sex workers who do this work so that they can pay the bills, so that they can eat. I was reading a thread yesterday by a woman. I can't remember her name, but she's been active lately and talking about how she's been leaving the industry, and she's been doing, like, a lot of polls and questions, you know, like, what questions would you have for someone who is retired? You know, different things. I've been seeing a lot of interaction. And she was telling this story. She had a long thread about how she had, I think, 100k saved, and said she did not have enough to retire, and so that she was going to get to 500k so that she would have enough. And just, she'll just, like, arbitrarily chose the number out of the sky, and then she got to 250 and, like. Was just this long, this tale of, like, um, you know, self sabotage. And anyways, the privilege was that, because the time she'd been in it, because of how much money she saved, she was able to go to therapy and realize, like, the origins of her fear response. So she was surviving, not just to not live, you know, client to client, but because she was running from some stuff in her path that she was trying to survive.

100%

And that still is a mentality of survival, and she had to get through that so that. So it was just interesting reading that, because it kind of added to the definition of survival sex work, which means I think a lot more of you know providers, a lot more providers can be in that category as well. Like, it's not just you know, people talk about survival--, oh, I'm gonna catch myself before I go down the rabbit hole. Survival sex workers, if they're like, Oh, you it's okay, or, you know, oh, she's, you know, she or he or they've got it bad because they are... shout out to all survivor sex workers.

Yeah.

Mad respect, because you just don't know what people are doing their motivation. But survival sex work cannot just be blanket associated with with shame, totally or impoverished or like

Pity.

There's pity, yes, not pity. Some survival sex workers, quote, unquote, have been able to experience power in their lives, sometimes for the first time because of sex work. So yeah, I'm gonna dial it back.

Yeah, there's a lot of things, and we don't necessarily want to speak for an experience that neither one of us have have experienced so it's like that may be true, but also like we're not the people that can speak on it necessarily,

No. And I think that, like, when you talk about privilege and survival, sex work and like, they seem to be just juxtaposed and like, and they have, like, this ugly relationship with each other. It gets really hairy. And I feel like it steps out of this, like human experience into just things that are that most of us have no business talking about

Totally but I do think that, like the point you made earlier, of privilege is something that all of us have is like an important thing that I want to come back to too, because it's-- Privilege is not a dirty word, and it's not something to be ashamed of. I think that that's a lot of specifically, like, white people's reaction to being accused of being privileged is to get defensive and be like, I've worked hard and all that. And it's like, you can have privilege and also have had a hard life. Like, those things are not exclusive, and just acknowledging that, like you've had it a little bit easier than some people, because of the amount of books in your home, growing up, the kind of education you had, the color of your skin, like all of those things, is a very important thing to recognize that our world has these like systemic

yeah

biases,

all day,

yeah, all day,

all day long. I am a dark skinned black woman born and raised in Georgia.

Mhmm. You know.

28:38

I know. Do I!

**Laughter** Does a bitch have a lil amnesia? Perhaps. But also, like, I

I love you so much.

28:53

No, no, it just gives you some extra tools. Um, there's a and, yeah, it gives you some extra tools. Sometimes it gives you the knowledge of how to use the tools,

Right? Yes

Yeah, Yes.

I'm not going to turn this into the privilege show. I just I get All excited about it.

No. I'm glad, well, you had said we wanted, you wanted to talk about it, and I'm really glad you did, because I think it's something that hadn't we haven't really touched on in the show. And I do think it's an important thing, not only for our industry, because it comes up in our industry a lot, sometimes just to be inflammatory on Twitter, which, yes, we can get into Twitter here in a minute, if you want to go there for a second.

**Laughter**

If you're turning it into Twitter. I will drink some more water. I will stretch. We could do a time limit on Twitter. We can have five minutes? You're gonna have five minutes or 10 minutes to just like, rant about Twitter for a second, and then we'll talk about joy. Because I know you wanted to talk about that. We gotta talk about joy, because that's the point, man, Joy. I mean, the clouds are temporary, but the sun is gonna be there forever. We gotta talk. Oh, my God. Okay, so are we setting this Twitter timer? Let's, yeah, I will. I got, I got a Twitter timer going. We got five minutes.

Okay, you could tell you've been therapy, because, you know about the timer. I can't tell you how many like I've had to, like read somebody thier rights to set a timer. Shout out to all the therapists out there.

We love you, especially if you're sex work positive. you're the best.

We love you. The world appreciates you. Okay, Twitter rant. and this is, I'm gonna keep it focused to current events. Did you see the email I sent you about the whole thing with the quote, unquote, PhD girl,

yes, I so I read the initial tweet, and then went, oh God. And then, like, moved away from it.

Yes. So first things first, my heart goes out to her and for everybody that was impacted by that conversation, step one. Step two is-- I don't even know what step two is.

Will you preface with, like, what-- will you just give a little overview of the-- so that the listeners know what we're referring to?

Sure, sure. So there is, there is a companion. And I guess two weeks ago now, she posted a tweet about a terrible time she had with a client. You know, she bought a an expensive dress, she paid for really nice hotel room, and she went beyond her boundary sexually because she thought that by doing all of these things that she was creating an experience and was going to gain him as a long term client. Now I hope that I said that more eloquently than the tweet came across with. Has she right? But that is what she was saying. But oh, and she also referenced her degree. She said, I paid this month for the dress, this month for the hotel room. I have a PhD, and basically violated on sexual boundaries. I lost so much money. I will never do that again. And immediately, people like, well, if you, you know, if you've got a PhD, then go do that. Go make more money there. You're dumb. People started making memes about the girl. It blew up. And it was tragic. It was so tragic. She ended up writing some tweets saying, like, she needed to get off her, you know, Twitter for a while, her mental health, she's been triggered, brought up some old stuff for her. So then there were side conversations of other workers saying, like, you know, we hope she's okay. And then, I mean, it was, it was just like the Firestorm, because everybody's like, nerves got triggered about privilege and degrees and expectations and, like, luxury marketing, like all of these tropes that we talk about in the industry literally were in one tweet.

Ugh.

In one tweet. And like, it just like everybody went crazy, and then so I think maybe a week later, like she was just trying to, you know, continue her marketing and, you know, her schedule tweets, you know, shout out to Buffer, whatever. And she made mention of, like, I'm not a quote, unquote, survival sex worker, and you're not a quote, unquote client, like we chose each other. What I think she was trying to say was, Don't look at me like a stereotype, like, just look at me like this woman. You're you. We're choosing each other. We really want to be here, which, again, came across as, So now you first, you're talking about you got a PhD, and next you're talking about you're not a survival. Again, it just sounds like... Mmmmm. Goddess bless this woman and everybody. Because, again, you can have a degree, you can have several, plenty of workers in this industry do, and it doesn't get you-- It doesn't matter, like it can be a part of your marketing, but it's not... I remember when I was starting grad school and getting my MBA. First month or two, I remember going to career services and saying, okay, realistically, how much can I make, Expect to make out of school? I'm getting this MBA. My university is prestigious. Like, what can I expect? So threw out this number, like, very smug, like, Oh, of course. Girl, I think, like two or three months later, the economy crashed.

Uh huh.

What? What do you mean? This was so, this is 2008 and so, like me getting this advanced degree, literally, the promise, the smug promise of it, was gone in a matter of months.

Yep.

So I feel, mostly, I feel sorry for the experience around her with this tweet one and then two. Anybody sex worker or not who is struggling with what they expected from what people told them, their privileges to get them. Yep, You're told that. You know, she's also like, I think of like, Creole heritage, which is like, for whoever's listening, it's like, Beyonce, yeah, her Mama, my she says, my daddy, Alabama, Mama, Louisiana, you make that Negro with that Creole? Get a Texas Bamma. That's what she said. I have to quote Beyonce, because Beyonce is God.

yes, always.

no, really, like when we talk about joy, like you can just like, I'll just say Beyonce and we can get off the interview at that, Dear God. But this woman is, she is of Creole heritage. So I've seen people on Twitter like She's saying she's a black woman. She is, she is white with complex No. People of African descent at a time in American history could also pass as white. They would call it passing, quote, unquote, yeah, and lived as white people, so they can attain this privilege and not be discriminated against. So this woman who got--

And that's where we got the term passing that like trans folk use today, Yes! yeah, absolutely.

So, for anybody who listening and thought that this woman was like white, trying to say she's black. No, she is a woman of African descent. So there is a privilege that's supposed to come with fair skin. There's a privilege that's supposed to come with

a degree

when you're white, a degree,

yeah.

So when you have the total privileges we

have 60 seconds, by the way, on our Twitter, oh,

this is good. Okay, you can do your three minutes on Twitter, cuz i;ve been running my mouth.

I'm here for it.

The whole point is, God bless her and everybody like her who was told that their privilege was going to make the world easy for them, and God loves everyone who was told, if they acquired those privileges, that it would make life even though they didn't have them. If only I was lighter, if only I went to school, if only now I can post pictures of a Chanel bag on Twitter, and they'll find me a Chanel bag, and now I'll be a fancy lady to have those things does not give you a promise. And I think that is what broke Twitter. Ping, Okay, So many things. Um, Hooo... Breathe girl!

I know I'm like, where do I want to where do I want to begin? Because, yes, like the promise, the promise of like, what our privileges, or like achievements, or whatever can give us, and then that not, that not happening. That's what like. That's the whole that's why incels, incel guys minds are broken like, why they just like, cannot connect the fact that like that-- we were, we don't even have to go into incels, but like that, that was the first thing I thought of, where I was just like, Oh, you have these expectations and these promises were given to you about your maleness and your whiteness, and not seeing the fruits of that, and you're taking it out on women, um, but as far as a degree goes, um, okay, so the first thing I thought of when I was hearing you talk about the tweet and, like, the backlash is that, like, sex workers cannot win, um, in general. So, like this, this, this poor companion. Bless, bless her. She's so I'm just like, my heart goes out to her, because, yeah, being bullied online is no fucking joke. So she has, she said she has a degree, and she gets like, backlash. She's there. People are like, Well, why don't you go fucking use your degree, get a job, whatever. But if she didn't, people would be like, go get a degree, go get a quote unquote real job. So like,

You're right.

No matter what, sex workers cannot win in that department, because people always got shit to say. And then, second of all, I really love that this goes to prove-- like, basically that initial tweet was her saying, like, I have a degree, and yet I still bent my boundaries too far. Like we as women, as queer folks, as People of color, people who are of marginalized communities, we have learned to bend our boundaries in order to stay safe. It's like the fawning trauma response, right? And so I think that like that saying, like I have a PhD, like I am a smart cookie, and yet I still struggle with these things. Like, that's powerful and heartbreaking,

yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it was a very vulnerable moment. Like, you don't get on,-- I don't see how you can get on a public forum and say, like, with, I don't know. I mean, of course, you don't know. You don't you wouldn't say that to cause harm. You're not that. You're being vulnerable. And you think in a community of people, whatever I understand, yes, um, so, yeah, it was, I think it was a very vulnerable moment of look at all the privileges I try to assume, in this place and I was still harmed,

Yeah, and also, when you're, I don't know about you, but for me, for sure, when I am in a like, heightened state of arousal, like my I'm I'm triggered, I'm, like, not feeling safe, um, which can last for, like, after, after an incident, for a while. I'm not choosing my words wisely, like, no, which is, like, probably don't go on Twitter, but like, that's what she chose to do, and that's okay, but

Right,

yeah. Like, I just feel, I feel for her in a big way. I

I, I just if, if you're listening to this, I also don't want her to be called quote, unquote PhD girl for the rest of her career. Like, I don't want that to be minimalized for that moment. So fellow sex worker, if you're listening to this, I'm sending compassion and kindness and grace and healing from me. Makeda to you, Yeah. Also, you could own it. Make T shirts. People will buy that shit. PhD girl, I'd wear that. I don't have a PhD, but I want an honorary one, one day. That's my goal. Okay, I do want to honorary PhD one day. We might be the same person. And have you ever heard of somebody called Kevin Samuels? No. Girl, Kevin Samuels was a goddamn mess, or my essay was because he lives well. Did live in Atlanta. He unfortunately was found dead this week in Atlanta, but Kevin Samuels was a YouTube personality. Had like seven, several million subscribers. Look at me plugging him and like, everybody's gonna listen to this and go running. But anyways, he was very problematic in the Africa-- or very divisive in the African American community, because he talked about relationships between black men and women, and women need to lower their standards. Men need to make women step to the plate and earn them. It was like, the fuck is this misogyny fest? with the pocket square? Like? What is this? So he had a guest on at one point, and he would ask, like, women sometimes, you know, what do you bring to the table or something? And you know, this one that was listing off her traits she was, like, and I also have a PhD, and he turned that into, like, a running joke for the rest of the his show. Like the episodes where he would just, like press a button sometimes of her voice, I have a PhD. I have a PhD. Like to run this joke of like, you have an accomplishment, and men don't care, like it was a trope and a bit of minimalization. Ugh! And like the last video he did, apparently, was a few weeks ago, and he said that black women over 35 and unmarried are leftovers. Oh fuck off! Yeah, he's that kind of guy. And then so apparently, like they found him dead this week in this apartment. Their word on the street is that he was found with a companion, which would be a very juicy turn of events. That would be juicy as fuck. So we're waiting for that to be out. But like, just to talk about how you said, like, women can't win, sex workers can't win, like it is an accomplishment. And in our world, in the vanilla world, like it's, it's made like a joke.

Yeah,

It's like, it's so hard to attain, and then, like, it is easy to-- I don't know It's making my head hurt. I just know it's, I, yeah, I feel you. And it is, it's frustrating because, like, men, men, specifically trying to minimize women's accomplishments is, like, is, I mean, it's misogynistic, and it's everywhere, and it's enfuriating, especially for sex workers. For sure, yeah, yeah, all right, I won't talk about it anymore. Yeah, I don't want to be angry.

We can get angry about other things, but let's talk about joy.

Yay!

We're just gonna shift. We're gonna take a complete 180.

Yeah!!!

Hello, listener. So it turns out that Makeda joy and I spoke for a very long time, and you're not gonna get the whole interview today. I will be posting part two of the Makeda Joy interview in two weeks time, and in the meantime, you just get to marinade in all the thoughts that we just laid out in the last 45 minutes. Yep, I was gonna post just an extremely long interview, but I decided against it, and I'm gonna make part one and part two. Um, because why not? It's my podcast. I'll do what I want. So check back in two weeks to hear Makeda Joi speak on joy. You won't want to miss it. You can hear at the end of that part of the interview how excited she is to talk about joy, and that excitement just grows and is contagious throughout this next half of the interview. I just want to say thank you for being here. This podcast is a joy to create. Yeah, so I guess I'll see you all in two weeks. Um, thank you all for being here. Don't forget to leave a review or send out some good energy or subscribe to the Patreon. Yeah, so I'll so we'll see y'all again in two weeks for the other half, the joyful half, the even more joyful half of the Makeda Joy interview. And in the meantime, I hope you all find some joy in the next couple of weeks to revel in. And I hope that your self talk is full of compassion. Ooh. And now we got to do a Space Fact. Hold on. Hold on. I've started to go with actual space facts, like real ones, not ones that I just make up, because I just like learning about this stuff. Okay, so this space fact has to do with the spatial phenomenon of of the nebula, or nebulae in the plural, and nebulae are clouds of gas and dust and fragments, sometimes from, sometimes leftover from an exploding supernova, of like a white dwarf or a giant star. So that's pretty cool. It's just this, like shrapnel cloud of of leftover stuff in space, and they're known as Star nurseries. Like quote, unquote star nurseries, because stars are born there. And the way stars are born there is that some of the space dust and gas and chunks and things begin to collect, like gather together. And as they bump into each other and kind of stay close and gather together, their gravitational pull increases, and so they start to pull in more gas and dust and things more matter and they grow, and so that something acts as a nucleus, the initial gathering together. And I'm using this phrase on purpose, and you'll see why in a second. And then it starts to create a small mass that grows larger and larger, and once enough stuff is gathered, usually I'm imagining that the gas is like flammable, or like it exists in a state of emitting light, and then we have a star. I'm not a scientist, obviously, I would be explaining this much better, but there's that, and I really think that's so cool. I sound so I think it's so interesting, because that's how-- the way the matter works in the star is how people work. Hear me out on this. I'll use ANSWER as an example, we were all just out there, each of us, individual sex workers, floating around, and some of us bumped into each other and were like, Hey, I vibe with you, and I've got we have a similar idea of like a world where sex workers rights are are validated and exist. And we gathered together, and we had a gravitational pull, and we ended up gathering together more people, more like minded folks. And as we gathered together, our light shone brighter, and our attraction, our gravitational attraction, grew stronger, and an ANSWER continues to grow. And so I it's interesting to me that people act like matter in that way, and we gravitate towards each other. I just think that's beautiful. I also really love the idea of just like we are all floating around in a nebula, just looking for each other, we really just want intimacy and to feel seen and heard. And that is a beautiful thing. So keep shining bright, and you'll find others to shine with you. Community is a bright shining star. Sometimes I hate me. Nanu nanu, motherfuckers.

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