In this episode, Nikki and Laurie are joined by James Lowry, and Joff Sharpe in a lively discussion on the evolving landscape of flexible workspaces. Together, they explore the complexities of modern work environments, touching on remote work, employee experience, and the challenges faced by organizations in adapting to new ways of working.

Tune in to gain valuable insights and perspectives from industry experts on the forefront of reimagining workspaces for the future. Don't miss out on this engaging and informative conversation!

For more episodes and insights on culture, leadership, and employee experience, visit withinpeople.com.

Learn more about James Lowery and Essensys here.

Learn more about Joff Sharpe here.

Stay connected with us for more thought-provoking discussions on the changing dynamics of work and leadership. Subscribe to Reimagining Work From Within for the latest updates and episodes.

will, I will answer that question.

2

But in one second, my

lights keep going off.

3

So I'm battling with the

lights in my room here.

4

. It's affecting your

5

Laurie Bennett: productivity, James.

6

I've

7

James Lowery: got to admit, it's

not, you know, this is, this is

8

balancing sustainability and energy

efficiency with productivity right now.

9

And it's, it's, it's,

10

Laurie Bennett: it's not working.

11

Flail your arms around every

now and again, we'll know why.

12

James Lowery: Well that's right,

if you see me just doing this,

13

this is, this is, this is why.

14

So I need to get out.

15

Oh, the

16

Laurie Bennett: visceral

experience of hybrid work Yeah,

17

Nikki de Vet: Hello, everyone.

18

Welcome to reimagining work from within.

19

My name is Nikki.

20

I'm a within partner based in London,

and I will be your host for today.

21

I'm super excited because today

I'm joined by three incredible

22

gentlemen, and we've actually all

known each other for quite Some time.

23

One of them is my Vancouver

based partner, Laurie.

24

Hello, Laurie.

25

And we are joined by two guests.

26

We're joined by Jane Lowery who

is the chief customer officer at

27

Escensys and Escensys is a software

platform that helps organizations

28

to deliver flexible workspaces.

29

And then last, but definitely not least.

30

Joff Sharp, who is the global operations

lead and head of EMEA for Flex by JLL.

31

And that's the flexible workspace arm of

one major commercial real estate service

32

business called Jones Lang LaSalle.

33

It's so lovely to have you all here.

34

As I said, we go back quite some time.

35

Joff James and I used to work together

at a property company in the UK,

36

which we then subsequently all left.

37

And Laurie used to work with us and really

helped us with our culture and the surface

38

proposition of a flexible workspace

offering that we all were working on.

39

How are you guys?

40

How are you today?

41

Anything that you wish to

share about yourself before

42

we go into our conversation?

43

Joff Sharpe: Where do we start?

44

I think we should, we should

probably refer to, we should

45

probably give each other a reference.

46

James Lowry.

47

He was the person who, who I worked very

closely with running a flexible workspace

48

business and he was best known as the

person whenever he had a really angry

49

customer with a complicated problem,

he would immediately delegate to me to

50

deal with his customer intervention.

51

So that, that I think is a

befitting introduction for James.

52

Feedback from you that you'd

like to reverse introduce?

53

James Lowery: Well, I just

took that as that was very good

54

upward management from myself.

55

So thank you, Geoff.

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Actually, the one, you know, compliment

back, because Geoff did a very

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good job of creating the space for

innovation to happen, which isn't

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always easy in large organizations.

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So I think that the going

back to the culture.

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point and actually the, you know,

everything coming together on this call.

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I think it's actually really nice that,

you know, creating the space, creating a

62

different kind of culture, actually all

the work that Laurie kind of, you know,

63

supported on, I think enabled a lot of it.

64

And then you put together, you know,

put that in the context of, you know,

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the team we kind of built and the

kind of the mission that we were on.

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Actually, I think it, you know, it

is quite a nice kind of coming back

67

together of the group that helped.

68

to deliver that.

69

So yeah, yeah,

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Nikki de Vet: absolutely.

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It's a reunion.

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Exactly.

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And I do feel like when we worked

together on this flexible workspace

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offering, it was a little, it

was a bit disruptive, wasn't it?

75

Like we were doing things that maybe

Not everyone was ready for yet.

76

And it's very interesting to now

think like how the world has evolved,

77

like, I don't know, seven years on

where we're finding ourselves and

78

how that need for, for flexible, for

flexibility, not only from a workspace

79

perspective, but also from a culture

perspective and an employee experience

80

perspective is very much needed.

81

So yes, very much the coming back

together of a group of people.

82

I think very passionate about.

83

That interplay and that intersection

of how do we make this work in service

84

of, of customers, of employees.

85

And yeah, I'm very excited that you

wanted to jump on this conversation.

86

We mentioned the word flexible a few

times now, and both of our lovely guests

87

work in the field of flexible workspace.

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And exactly that is what

we want to touch on today.

89

So.

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What do we actually mean when

we talk about flexibility?

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You know, what does this truly mean from

a space and an environment perspective

92

and also from a culture perspective

and maybe more importantly, what are,

93

what are leaders out there facing in

terms of challenges in this field?

94

James Lowery: I'm happy to start.

95

I think, I think firstly, that what.

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It's, there's an important point to make.

97

I think a lot of the, a lot of

what we're going to talk about,

98

in fact, all of it applies really

to people working in offices.

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And I think as a kind of a

starting point, it's just worth

100

putting that kind of boundary.

101

Not everyone works in offices and, and

I drop my kids off at school every day.

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And I see the teachers who were there

five days a week at the gate at 8.

103

30 every single morning, right?

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But there has been this huge

shift of office based workers

105

and, and, and flexibility.

106

And I think if I look at it very

simplistically, I think that comes down

107

to a choice of kind of where you work.

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And we talk a lot about hybrid working.

109

So I think that often gets simplified

into the home versus the office.

110

I think in reality, it's probably

more complicated than that.

111

This is other spaces, which

I'm sure we'll touch on today.

112

And then there's the kind of.

113

When people work right, which I think

there's people, there's morning people,

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there's evening people, people do four

days a week and you kind of put all

115

that together and it becomes this quite

complicated mix of things, which is

116

definitely not a one size fits all.

117

And that is both a challenge for companies

who were kind of running businesses and

118

also for, for workspace providers who are

trying to cater for this kind of very,

119

very complex changing customer need.

120

So that'll be as a starting point.

121

There's lots in there.

122

Yeah, well,

123

Joff Sharpe: I guess you can, you can

look at it through different lenses.

124

COVID obviously, it basically forced

mass trial usage of working from home

125

or working from somewhere that you're

not used to, which had a consequence.

126

And so all of a sudden the employee

has, has a perspective and an opinion.

127

That their employer has to listen

to the HR people who now, I

128

mean, I used to be an HR person.

129

Nikki will probably tell you

a terrible one, but that's

130

what I was for a long time.

131

And, you know, a workplace

strategy wasn't a huge thing.

132

You know, it was a, it was, it wasn't up

there with talent management, for example.

133

You know, you would never take it

as seriously as a topic like that.

134

All of a sudden, workplace strategy

is, you know, something that a chief

135

executive will take an interest in.

136

Which is, which is new.

137

So.

138

Lots of ways of, lots of ways of

getting into the subject, I think.

139

Nikki de Vet: Yeah, and what I

actually hear you both say is things

140

have become more complex, right?

141

That's like, it's no

longer so straightforward.

142

No, now other people have a

vested interest in this, right?

143

Like our employees have a vested

interest in terms of what is

144

happening in the place that we work.

145

And with that has come a language change.

146

And now currently I, I agree with

James around the conversation.

147

Of flexibility.

148

A lot of what that language speaks to

is where do we work and when do we work?

149

So, Laurie, from, from a culture

perspective, what else do we see there?

150

Laurie Bennett: Yeah, I think the,

James, you said something earlier when

151

you were introducing Joff around that

he created a space that felt like it

152

was really conducive to the innovation

that you needed to start that business.

153

And I think there's something nice in

that word, that concept of creating

154

space that you're talking to from

a Physical environment perspective.

155

And I think the cultural

piece is sort of the same.

156

I think the big thing that we're seeing

around flexibility is trying to break out

157

of the, just speaking about flexibility

in terms of where you work and when

158

you work, that it becomes an office

space and a working hours conversation.

159

But it starts to really take into account

how different people need to be able to

160

work, to be able to do their best work.

161

And so if you're thinking about the

space you're creating, the experience

162

you're creating for the people you

need to deliver and produce the

163

work that you do, it's about asking.

164

More pointedly, how do the needs of the

different individuals that work here

165

differ and how do we somehow find a way

of catering to those that allows each

166

person to work in a way that enables

them to be productive and to kind of

167

balance what's going on in their life

with the way that they do their work,

168

whilst at the same time, um, Enabling

a collective system to operate so that

169

it doesn't just become a free for all

of everybody doing their own thing.

170

And I think that the concept of

flexibility has got a bit stuck

171

in trying to navigate that tension

between how are we enabling

172

individuals to do what they do.

173

You've talked about morning

people versus evening people.

174

We've talked about people who have

amazing I think Places to do their

175

work from home versus people who share

their home with a whole lot of other

176

people who also want that kitchen table

for their laptop or have kids running

177

around and screaming in the background.

178

How do you start to enable an experience

for people through the space that

179

you create through the workplace and

through the culture that actually

180

enables them to do their best work?

181

Joff Sharpe: Yeah, I'd say there's a

couple of, a couple of related thoughts.

182

I would offer on this one is the JFK

thought of ask what, not what the

183

workplace can do for you, but what you

can do for the workplace, which is this

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idea of when you see all these LinkedIn

blogs about how productive people are,

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they rarely say I'm productive because

I'm available for the new, the new

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starter who wants to be mentored and

wants to be given a sense for the company

187

and the culture and all the rest of it.

188

It's all very selfish about.

189

They're productive through a lens of

now I can walk the dog and collect the

190

kids and do all the things that I want

To do but with very little commentary

191

around The consequence that might have

for a frustrated chief executive right

192

down to the brand new employee who

just wants to be orientated So I think

193

there's a there's a degree of selfishness

which is getting in the way of clear

194

thinking on this This topic, and it

comes from all directions, and it's all

195

disinformation of one sort or another.

196

The other thing which doesn't get

much airtime, and I think deserves

197

more, is the issue of calibre.

198

Because If the workforce is more self

directed, there is a built in assumption

199

that it is a motivated and a self

starting and an effective workforce

200

without traditional forms of supervision.

201

And that is a, that is a, an

automatic assumption, which

202

I don't think you could make.

203

And the Netflix HR policy, for

example, which is a much read, you'd

204

never think an HR policy would,

would get much interest from people,

205

but this one's been downloaded

some 40 million times or something.

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But.

207

It's a very liberalizing policy

that says we don't dictate

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holiday times to you, for example.

209

You can do whatever the heck you want.

210

But it is accompanied by a caveat.

211

That we only hire very good people and

if we make a mistake, they get very

212

short shrift and they get moved out of

the organization if they're not able

213

to operate in the way that we expect.

214

So, not to monopolize the conversation,

but there are other aspects, elephants

215

in the room, which really aren't being

talked about and they need to be in order

216

to move this conversation on to something

that's a bit more practical and useful.

217

James Lowery: Well, just to kind

of, I guess, relate it to that

218

point about high performing.

219

People don't mention

productivity earlier as well.

220

I think realistically today, not

many companies can accurately measure

221

the productivity of their workforce.

222

There's been a, there's been a perception

that if everyone's sitting in the office

223

sitting in front of their computer, kind

of, you know, typing away or looking

224

busy that they're being productive.

225

When you get into a world of people

working anywhere at different times,

226

but ultimately being output focused,

it's really difficult to do that.

227

Really difficult to kind

of truly understand.

228

And I think there are, you know, there

are parts of, of a workforce where it

229

is easy, and if you in a sales function,

for example, and your, your job is to

230

kind of sell, well, you can measure

that if you sit in marketing or HR or

231

finance to kind of really be able to.

232

Understand what great looks

like, what are the measures?

233

How do you kind of get down and to

highlight those kind of high caliber

234

people beyond just, I see X person at

their desk at seven 30 every morning

235

and they seem to work really hard.

236

So, and if you then kind of want to

pick that a little bit more, to me, this

237

whole concept of it is sort of, there's

a trust point I think in this kind of

238

flexible, there's a very sort of feeling,

you know, I feel like I trust that person

239

and they kind of deliver well for me.

240

But actually to be truly, truly objective

about a lot of the work that kind of

241

happens today and, and enabling some

of the kind of really high performing

242

companies working in flexible ways,

whatever that might look like.

243

I don't think we understand enough

about the businesses themselves.

244

Nikki de Vet: Yeah, I think both of you

are speaking to some real challenges

245

that leaders are facing out there, right?

246

Because it's, it, this is coming

up, like the conversation around

247

productivity, for instance.

248

The way we hear about this is that

people come to us and they speak

249

to, Hey, how do we make sure we

keep performing at the same rate?

250

So the language that is used there

is very much around performance.

251

And there is, I think, a very

interrelated, like productivity and

252

performance are, can be closely related.

253

And then we hear about different

generations in the workforce and having

254

different needs as you just spoke to.

255

Lori, what do you make of this from an

employee experience perspective, linking

256

to what the guys were just saying?

257

Laurie Bennett: I really agree, James,

what you're saying there about there's

258

more we need to understand and we need

to get more curious about what actually

259

drives performance inside our businesses

because for a very long time, time and

260

place have been too easy proxies that

we've been able to use for productivity.

261

How long is someone at their desk for?

262

And If they're at their desk and we can

curate this environment around their

263

office, then let's call that culture.

264

And so we've sort of equated culture with

office and equated productivity with time.

265

And I think what we're starting

to see what the pandemic did

266

was it tore those things apart.

267

I don't think anyone's really Sure.

268

Exactly where they've landed.

269

It depends who you ask, and

it depends when you ask them.

270

We've seen a sort of tidal flow

of people out of the office,

271

and this is the best thing ever.

272

And then actually, no, we're

going to bring people back in

273

the office because being in the

office is the best thing ever.

274

And I think what it what's been

interesting from our perspective

275

is starting to divorce those ideas

initially and go, Hey, time is not a

276

proxy for productivity in a lot of jobs.

277

If you're Punching a machine than maybe,

but if you're involved in a creative

278

industry that that relationship doesn't

work in the same way and actually the

279

conditions that you create around somebody

doing their work might enable them to be

280

enormously more productive within time.

281

And that asks big questions about where

we do this and the kind of culture.

282

We put around them.

283

I think the challenge within that becomes

if we suddenly recognize that different

284

people want different things and need

different things, whose agenda wins out

285

in the end, you know, in the past, maybe.

286

And Joff, you spoke a bit

about this at the start.

287

It would have been the boss saying

this is the way we do stuff here.

288

Like it or lump it, come join

our company if you like doing

289

it this way, don't if you don't.

290

And a bit of a shift to actually,

does it have to be one size fits all?

291

If that might be easier to manage, but in

the end it's actually not as productive.

292

We'll have something called hybrid

that feels like it's some compromise

293

around this, but we're finding it really

difficult to understand how to cater

294

to different needs simultaneously.

295

And I think that's what's leading to

the knee jerks of, no, let's just bring

296

everybody back to the office or let's

try and commit one way or the other.

297

, and I'm curious sort of what you

notice around who, who decides.

298

How this works in, in organizations

now, what a policy around workplace

299

looks like, is that a, can, is that

something that you go out and you ask

300

your workforce to help you decide?

301

Or is that something that you

mandate and they choose whether

302

to be a part of it or not?

303

Nikki de Vet: There is a real

divide in this, in the sense of

304

how people are approaching it.

305

And some some organizations are making.

306

Very bold, binary statements around this.

307

How are we feeling about that?

308

James Lowery: Look, I think To me, I

think the answer lies somewhere in the

309

kind of, , it's, it's a balancing of,

of, , what kind of employees want to

310

what the, what the company needs are.

311

And I think I read something recently,

which put it quite nicely around,

312

lead leaders need to work out how to

create this kind of holistic employee

313

experience that aligns to really what is.

314

Well, kind of valuable for their career,

for their employees career and what

315

is valuable for the business, right?

316

And that's the kind of, that's the

aim, to try and get the balance right.

317

, and, and I think from a, from an

employee point of view, there's

318

something around choice, right?

319

Because, you know, because

this, this, there isn't the

320

kind of a one size fits all.

321

So providing kind of Some kind of choice

and allow people to kind of decide when

322

and where and how and everything else.

323

But at the same time, you've got

to create those guardrails, right?

324

Because I think with no guardrails, that

just becomes kind of completely chaotic.

325

And that, and I think, with those

Guardrails, it's really important coming

326

back to sort of the, the culture bit.

327

And I think you link, , what

is a company culture?

328

I think there's points around clarity

on a kind of operating model of a

329

business, the strategy, the vision, all

of that sort of gets grouped together.

330

So that's got to be tight because

previously probably didn't need to,

331

because everyone just sat and bumped into

each other and seemed, seemed to work.

332

So I think on the one, on that side, we,

you know, companies need to be tighter,

333

clearer than they ever have been before.

334

And actually Joff mentioned it

at the very kind of beginning.

335

This is, this is the kind of the HR

department, the property, the, the

336

property team, it's, it's finance, it's

the operations team, it's everybody

337

coming together and ultimately the

CEO looking at it and, and being able

338

to, as a CEO, exec or whatever it is.

339

balancing all of those things, taking

the time to think about it as well.

340

Cause it, you know, it hasn't

been on the agenda now.

341

It has to be because it, you know, lots

of people are scratching their head.

342

Is my productivity dropping?

343

What is my policy?

344

So, tightening up on, on,

on the company kind of day to

345

day and providing that choice.

346

The other element in this actually, which

I think is, is worth raising as well.

347

There was a, there was an article, I

think in the BBC that, record numbers

348

, of people not working due to long term

illness, mental health being part of

349

it, , particularly in young people, right?

350

So I think, you know, that is part, , if

you think about why do people want to

351

come to the, to the office and actually we

think we've kind of mentioned earlier, but

352

there's, there is different needs that.

353

different kind of age groups.

354

And, , it seems to be the case

that younger people want to

355

be in the office to learn, to

interact and, and everything else.

356

And they are the ones that are,

, actually suffering in some ways

357

due to some of the hybrid working.

358

So it is a tremendously

complicated problem to, to solve.

359

And one that we'll probably just keep

iterating over months and years to come.

360

Yeah,

361

Joff Sharpe: because as you're talking,

I was thinking occupational psychologist

362

is, you know, you were going through

the list of all the people who whose

363

voices need to be heard and you could

add that to the list for that reason.

364

And there was, you know, Malcolm Gladwell

published this piece, I can't remember

365

what it was, Which publication it was,

but anyway, he was sort of talking

366

about self esteem and that sort of thing

and, , contextualizing the world of work.

367

And what he was basically saying is,

surely we don't all want to sort of, , sit

368

at home in our living rooms and that,

and that to, , define our existence.

369

And don't we want to get back to

some more contextualized, and even

370

separation between work and home

and all those sorts of ingredients.

371

What was interesting, what he was

saying, I don't think was particularly

372

controversial and of course he's a very

interesting commentator, but I mean

373

the visceral reaction that you saw from

people absolutely furious that, you

374

know, how dare he advocate a kind of a

re normalization from, from some people.

375

You know, and that's another feature of

this conversation, it's so, very often

376

it's, it's so individualistic and so angry

and so one sided and, and very rarely is

377

anyone permitted to say, look, there's

about six different points of view and you

378

need to think about all of them if you're

going to come to a sensible conclusion.

379

, Laurie Bennett: I think there's

something really powerful about that.

380

idea, Geoff, of there are lots of

different opinions and needs at play here.

381

And I think that one really useful break

that I, I would have imagined some of

382

the reaction to Malcolm Gladwell's piece

there was around was the system as it was.

383

Works worked extremely well for a certain

group of people who tend to be the people

384

at the top of the system as it was, which

is challenging because there were a lot

385

of people that that system didn't work

for that, at least breaking the bonds

386

between time, place and productivity

has opened up a conversation around.

387

I think trying to shut that conversation

down, which I see some CEOs doing

388

that to me is that perspective

of Hey, the other system seemed to

389

work just great where people came

in the office and did the work.

390

We could watch them and it happened,

which actually eliminated the ability

391

for people to grow and feel like they

could bring their best selves to work

392

for a lot of people for whom a 9 to 5.

393

In an office that they have to

travel to because they don't

394

can't afford to live near it,

etcetera, really doesn't work for.

395

So it opens up that conversation,

which is extremely powerful.

396

The problem, as you say, then, James, is

that conversation gets very complicated

397

very quickly when you're suddenly opening

up all of these different needs and wants.

398

And I think what is it that

starts to help us simplify that?

399

What are some?

400

What are some of the guide

rails That can be put in around.

401

Let's actually be really clear about

the work we do and about the way that we

402

deliver that work in this culture, the

kind of behaviors and ways that we need

403

people to show up and deliver around that

become Artifacts that we can say these

404

are the things that we're in support of.

405

And so as we start thinking about our

office portfolio and what it's used for,

406

as we think about our work hours and

our holiday time, there's an intention

407

and an integrity that sits behind that

that says that is in service of us

408

delivering in these ways, because that's

the way that we deliver things here.

409

And I think being able to have that kind

of conversation of what are those Elements

410

that we can start to build agreement

around or alignment around inside our

411

organization that opens the door more

than it was before to groups of people

412

who can suddenly find productivity where

it wasn't and leadership and growth where

413

it wasn't previously offered to them.

414

But doesn't create a complete free

for all for a CEO to feel like they

415

have to juggle a thousand agendas.

416

They can really start to align

what's, what's needed here and

417

how that's going to work for them.

418

Nikki de Vet: Yeah.

419

I feel that, that the guardrails is

what people like more and more keep

420

asking for, like help us sift us

through, through this complex world

421

that we now, that we now live in.

422

And I think, thank you, James earlier for.

423

Making the point of the work like the

work that within is doing is very much

424

needed right now Can we just tighten

up on like the ambition for the future

425

make sure people know about that people

know about the strategy like people?

426

Know about what is expected of them.

427

That is now more so needed even more so

than before But and I want to bring it

428

back to a question that Laurie A post

earlier that we didn't really get around

429

like so if we know that all these things

are very much needed and we need to create

430

some alignment around, around these pieces

and people need to make decisions around

431

what is right for this organization in

particularly taking into account all this

432

complexity, like Who is in organizations?

433

Who is answering these

questions like like this?

434

It's quite a complex problem.

435

Whose whose desk does that land on?

436

Who's involved in those conversations?

437

James Lowery: I will, I

will answer that question.

438

But in one second, my

lights keep going off.

439

So I'm battling with the

lights in my room here.

440

. It's affecting your

441

Laurie Bennett: productivity, James.

442

I've

443

James Lowery: got to admit, it's

not, you know, this is, this is

444

balancing sustainability and energy

efficiency with productivity right now.

445

And it's, it's, it's,

446

Laurie Bennett: it's not working.

447

Flail your arms around every

now and again, we'll know why.

448

James Lowery: Well that's right,

if you see me just doing this,

449

this is, this is, this is why.

450

So I need to get out.

451

Oh, the

452

Laurie Bennett: visceral experience of

hybrid work that we're experiencing.

453

Yeah,

454

James Lowery: look, I

can from interesting.

455

I can give to sort of a

perspective from a census.

456

Actually, it is, you know, we meet,

we meet, you know, weekly as a kind

457

of a small ex co group and, and

weekly as part of a one hour meeting,

458

we will, we will talk about it.

459

Kind of hybrid working, we will talk

about what's working kind of, , what's

460

not, a lot of this does come back to

sort of some simple things, talking

461

about the guide rail kind of point we,

we have, , we moved to three days, when

462

everyone was coming back, we sort of said,

okay, let's try and get to three days.

463

A week, we got to three days

a week and actually move

464

that down to two days a week.

465

And we keep, , checking in, and we,

we try to refine it through team days,

466

all sorts of things we are constantly

testing and sitting in the room is,

467

you know, HR, CEO, finance, I, from the

customer side and all the operational team

468

linking to that and the sales function.

469

And that's globally too, right?

470

So on a weekly basis,

we, we talk about this.

471

We, we are getting better on

the data side of it as well.

472

Actually kind of what we do as a, as

a business, we can collect data as to

473

who's in the office at what times, kind

of when, anonymized data actually, but

474

again, picking up kind of patterns.

475

And interestingly, all of this.

476

happening at the same time as

actually we sort of hit we sort of

477

hit almost capacity within our office.

478

And we were at this point of, do

we want to take some more space?

479

Do we want to actually just kind of,

you know, that's part of the decision

480

to go from three days a week to two

days a week to try and smooth it all.

481

And, and actually, it's not, there's

things that aren't kind of perfect.

482

And I think the bit which I will kind

of reflect on is around the, measuring

483

how productive People are right.

484

We, you know, we're, we're, there's

certain parts of, again, I kind of

485

mentioned earlier, certain parts of

the business where we're really clear.

486

Actually, , we have a whole product

team here around 70 people and

487

they are just producing software.

488

Actually, that's quite easy

to measure productivity.

489

We measure that quite closely.

490

We have a sales function.

491

We can do the same.

492

We have a customer.

493

where we can measure certain things

quite well, actually, other parts

494

of business is tougher and we're, we

are refining how we look at really

495

across the business, our kind of KPI

set, how we can, take at a top level

496

look at it and say, this is, this is.

497

Product, this is high productivity

and this is less so, right.

498

And that becomes kind of a measure on,

on, , and it's not exclusively, are you

499

in the office two or three days a week

and what tools but, , we are trying

500

to tighten to learn and to improve.

501

Okay, and you're

502

Nikki de Vet: creating a little

bit of your own benchmark.

503

James Lowery: Well, we're creating

a bit of our own benchmark.

504

And actually we take, we, we also take,

, ultimately from a SAS business point of

505

view, you can, there's quite a lot of

metrics and benchmarks out there as well,

506

which we can take as a guide as well.

507

You know, again, it's not, it's not

a perfect fit, but we can, we do

508

look at what, what, what does good

look like from an industry standard?

509

Joff Sharpe: Yeah.

510

I mean, the kind of considerations.

511

for any business are, you know,

what's my employee turnover?

512

So if your employee turnover is

extremely low, you can probably be

513

more remote because you've already

established norms and values, hopefully.

514

And so you're reiterating

something that's broadly agreed

515

and understood between people.

516

If you have high turnover, it

becomes much more difficult.

517

If you work in a company that generates

IP, where you have quite a lot of

518

individualistic work, that's more

conducive to home working, assuming that

519

People have the environment to do that.

520

So that's a, you know,

that's another consideration.

521

And the, and the caliber and

associated level of remuneration

522

is a consideration as well.

523

So it's interesting to hear a

census, you know, for James.

524

I mean, they, you know, you, I know

your company well, obviously, and

525

you have lots of very high caliber

people doing quite complicated things.

526

And I think.

527

You know, you have to look at every

circumstance and, you know, you

528

guys, Laurie and Nicky, I mean, your

business is remote by definition.

529

That's the way you are.

530

You know, years ago, I

worked for M& M Mars.

531

In those days, kind of remote working

was a bit of a pioneering idea.

532

And we had a program where everyone got

together and, and emphasized the idea

533

of investing time early on, figuring out

who are these other people who live in

534

Vancouver, London, and America, and all

points of the compass, you know, where,

535

who are they, what are their values,

do we share a common perspective, and

536

establishing those norms and values, so

that when you then bomb burst to your

537

respective locations, you trust each

other and you know that you're pretty

538

much doing what's expected mutually.

539

You can rely upon each other.

540

And if you don't invest that time and

effort, you know, you might think you

541

all share values and only, you know,

much later in the day in a way that

542

might negatively impact customers.

543

For example, you discover that.

544

Your perspective is not as common

as you had previously assumed.

545

So again, this is not a brand new topic.

546

It's just one that used to be

the preserve of specialists like

547

yourselves, and it's now something

that everyone has to worry about.

548

Nikki de Vet: Yeah, it's evolved.

549

It's a thing now.

550

Hybrid is, is, has a name, you

know, we've labeled it and it's not

551

just, it's not just remote working

or, you know, going on an overseas.

552

Business trip, for instance, it's

interesting to hear that there is,

553

so there's, there's different people

around the table talking about this

554

James, in terms of your example of how

you go about looking at these things

555

and figuring out what this might

mean for your, for your organization.

556

James Lowery: Can I actually just, just

jump in one, one point actually on Joff's

557

point around kind of global businesses.

558

And I get, I know that you guys will

definitely see this, but , we, we have

559

a team in Sydney, , so talk about,

, work, working in a different place.

560

, I'm working at a different time that

kind of flex the two of the, the, the,

561

the, the dimensions of flexibility

and they, , they couldn't be any

562

more different to the UK, right?

563

So all of that, , a lot of my focus , is

to make sure that anything and everything

564

that we are doing is, is doing it in a way

that's supporting, , a very remote, , on

565

the upper ends of flexible working team.

566

And it's tough, you know, it's tough, but

then, then that's, I think that kind of

567

the how point and the, the, the cultural

point and the understanding and the ways

568

of working and the tools, making sure that

we, we have that really, really robust

569

and that, that then creates the support

570

Joff Sharpe: that, that helps.

571

I mean, we all, , we all talk about

flex and hybridization of work as

572

though that's, you know, more or

less expected and even necessary

573

to, , live a fulfilling life.

574

But I can tell you, I mean, , some

of the people I've spoken to is.

575

, by all means, work from home just as long

as you, you submit a sickness note to

576

prove that you were ill that day, so we,

we shouldn't universalize this and assume

577

that every culture is heading in this way

because that's actually not true either.

578

Hmm.

579

Nikki de Vet: No, that's not true.

580

True, definitely.

581

And I think more and more complex for like

bigger organizations that span so many

582

different geographical markets, right?

583

It's like, how do, how do you bring

people together and how do you come to

584

some sort of alignment if, if the needs

or the actual requirements of the culture

585

that, that they're living in are, are

so different and might not accept such

586

policies that we all dream up together.

587

So yeah, there's, there's

many different facets to it.

588

Laurie, what else have we

learned about, about hybrid and

589

what comes into play with that?

590

Laurie Bennett: Oh, I mean, it's

the list of things that don't

591

is probably shorter because I

think the mistake we make is the.

592

To thinking that the thing, what we

have to talk about in terms of a hybrid

593

workplace, again, is kind of where are

people going to work and when, and I

594

think if you expand from that into the,

what the implications are for other

595

systems and processes inside a business

and a culture that are affected by those

596

decisions, technically a lot can, a lot

can change, you know, I think zooming

597

right out, there's a question of what

does it mean to be successful here?

598

What are we trying to grow for and into,

and is the objective here to maximize.

599

Profit and revenue and growth.

600

Or is it to maximize the experience

of a group of people and still

601

have a successful business?

602

Like, I think you can go

zoom right out to that lens.

603

But even coming closer to home, I think

some of the things that you're referring

604

to James and Joff in there around you

can't make a decision on where and when

605

people work without it starting to impact.

606

Well, how do we measure people's success?

607

And what is it that

Productivity means here.

608

If we're a company, for example,

you know, in an agency world that

609

we're a part of that sells time.

610

And that is the currency

by which we measure people.

611

And so to say we're going to get

flexible with time suddenly is

612

alarming because that's the whole

basis on which we do things.

613

So you have to be starting to think in

those places of reconnecting the ways

614

that we reward people and help them feel

like they are growing and rewarded for

615

the work that they do in ways that align

to how it is that they want to work.

616

And I think the things that I see

coming up a lot around this, these

617

conversations that relates to how we're

talking today is being able to ask that

618

question into a into a group of people

and starting to think about a system.

619

That will enable people

to do their best work.

620

Part of that is around

where and when do we work.

621

Part of that is around what sort of

space do we need to enable people to

622

do the work that needs to be done.

623

And can we get intentional

about how that space is used?

624

Do we have places where people can

collaborate and do certain kinds of work

625

and places where they can do other things?

626

I know that's been a big

part of the discussion.

627

Journey that we were all on together

many years ago was starting to imagine

628

what that space needed to look like.

629

I think related to that is one

of the ways that people get

630

to connect with each other.

631

And a lot of that should be through

the work, and that's difficult to

632

do if people are constantly remote

and isolated from each other.

633

But connection in the sense of I

feel like I belong in a culture,

634

and I'm part of a bigger plan here

of things that we're making isn't

635

Exclusively about spending time in.

636

Physical contact with each other.

637

There are loads of other things in a

culture that can help to deliver that.

638

And I think the other thing that we

haven't discussed much today, but is a

639

huge piece of this transition is around

skill that working remotely requires a

640

fundamentally different set of skills

around self responsibility and managing to

641

outcomes rather than tracking time, like

a whole bunch of stuff from from Employees

642

and even more from managers and leaders

who have to somehow kind of connect and

643

convene a culture, maintain productivity

and be able to do that in a way that's

644

based on Hey, I'm gonna trust the people

in my team here to deliver the outcomes

645

that we say we're going to work on

without being able to see them or manage

646

the time that they're working around it.

647

Like that's a huge piece of the

puzzle that I think doesn't often

648

get pulled into conversations

about flexible hybrid working.

649

I'd like to see more of.

650

Nikki de Vet: Yeah.

651

Thank you, Laurie.

652

And I think that's a, that's a great segue

into kind of bringing this conversation

653

to the end, thank you guys for stepping

into this conversation with us.

654

Super excited to have heard

your perspective on this.

655

And very grateful for you to come

on this podcast, because whenever we

656

talk to our clients and people in our

community about the topic of flexibility.

657

Space and where and when are always

at the forefront of people's minds.

658

And I think as we've heard

today, there is just a beautiful

659

connection between those things.

660

And how do you therefore cater to people

from employee experience perspective?

661

So thank you for listening, everyone.

662

We hope you have enjoyed this

exploration of flexibility

663

with James, Geoff and Laurie.

664

You can find more of our thinking

on this topic and culture and

665

employee experience at within people.

666

com and you will find more

about Geoff and James in the

667

notes that go with this podcast.

668

Tune in to our podcast for more episodes

on what's happening in the culture

669

and leadership space and what's on the

minds of leaders committed to change.

670

Reimagining work from within is available

wherever you listen to podcasts.

671

And that's a wrap.