Shownotes
Welcome back to ADHD-ish! In this episode, host Diann Wingert sits down with Dr. Gilly Kahn, author of the recently published Allow Me to Interrupt: A Psychologist Reveals the Emotional Truth Behind Women’s ADHD. Together, Gilly and Diann tackle often overlooked elements of ADHD, like emotional dysregulation and rejection sensitivity, shining a light on the daily realities that many women face but rarely see reflected in mainstream ADHD narratives.
Drawing on both personal experiences and clinical insights, Gilly and Diann unpack hot-button topics such as the gaps in diagnostic criteria, why women are often diagnosed later in life, and the profound impact of being emotionally sensitive in a world that expects conformity.
Whether you’ve been told you’re “extra,” struggled with impulsivity, or have battled feelings of not belonging, this conversation will offer validation, strategies, and a healthy dose of humor. Grab your headphones—it’s time to celebrate the quirks, strengths, and unique challenges of being a woman with ADHD.
What you’ll hear in this episode:
Emotional Dysregulation is Fundamental (and Overlooked): While most people associate ADHD with distractibility and impulsivity, Diann and Dr. Kahn remind us that emotional sensitivity and reactivity are just as central—especially for women. Emotional outbursts, rejection sensitivity, and the complexities of self-regulation often remain unaddressed but profoundly impact daily life and professional relationships.
Misdiagnosis & Misunderstanding Persist: Many women spend years feeling misunderstood, misdiagnosed with anxiety, depression, or even personality disorders, before discovering ADHD’s unique presentation in females. Trauma from chronic misunderstanding—whether “big T” or “little t”—leaves lasting scars on self-esteem and career confidence.
Diversity of Thought = Business Advantage: The strengths that come with ADHD—creativity, expansive curiosity, resilience in the face of rejection—aren’t just “superpowers” for individuals. As Dr. Kahn eloquently puts it, teams excel when they have true diversity of thought. Those who think differently spark innovation and challenge the status quo.
Mic Drop Moment:
“You can’t have strengths without also having weaknesses, especially when the strengths are extreme.” – Gilly Kahn, PhD
Guest Bio
Gilly Kahn, PhD, is a clinical psychologist, ADHD advocate, researcher, and author in private practice in Atlanta, GA, USA. Before pursuing a master's in experimental psychology and a doctorate in clinical psychology, Gilly studied creative writing, a passion since childhood, and regularly publishes articles on Psychology Today and ADDitude Magazine. Gilly and Diann are both members of the Committed Partners of FindTheADHDGirls.org, an advocacy group for ensuring that future generations of girls with ADHD are not overlooked.
Find Gilly Kahn, PhD, online:
Website: https://www.drgillykahn.com/
ADHD experts mentioned during the episode:
Want to know more about ADHD in girls and women? #FindTheADHDGirls.org
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© 2025 ADHD-ish Podcast. Intro music by Ishan Dincer / Melody Loops / Outro music by Vladimir / Bobi Music / All rights reserved.
Transcripts
H: One of the most important reasons I wanted to chat with you about this is even people who consider themselves knowledgeable about ADHD will always reference distractibility, impulsivity, hyperactivity. They know a little bit more maybe they'll talk about perfectionism and procrastination, but you rarely hear people talk about emotional dysregulation. And I know that you agree with me that that's at least half of what we struggle with.
G: Yes, absolutely. And there's a lot of overlap, too like, you know, it's difficult to say that someone is impulsive without also considering that they're impulsive because they're emotionally dysregulated.
H: Say more about that.
G: Yeah, so I think there's this big, like, just developmental component to ADHD because it's a neurodevelopmental condition. And when you're a kid, you're a bit more like an open book, that's the beauty of I think kids. They want to do something, they're more likely to do it. And so if you have adhd, that's kind of like the cherry on top. So that would propel you even more so to say exactly what's on your mind or to do exactly what you want to do. And the way the ADHD criteria are written right now in the dsm, they're written in a way that describes boys and children really well.
And although there are a few parenthetical statements that try to tailor the criteria to adults, those parenthetical statements, according to Dr. Russell Barkley, who's an expert in the field, were not necessarily based on any specific research. They were kind of added on to help clinicians better understand how this might present in adults. But the criteria are mostly based on children. So the misconception is that if you have adhd, then you're fidgety, you're maybe getting out of your seat, right? That's one of the criteria, you know, interrupting, speaking out of turn. And those are kind of items that reflect impulsivity in the criteria.
But the thing is that as you get older and your brain develops, then you're better able to control or suppress those impulses. And I actually start a chapter in my book in that way. And I talk about this where I was sitting at a conference, and I was sitting in on a support group that was being run. And while I was sitting there and kind of supporting the clinicians who were my friends and they were running the group, I looked over and I saw that there was, like, an emotional support dog there. And I noticed that the emotional support dog was rolling all over the floor and just, like, sensory input in a good way. And it was the end of the day, it was like 8pm after a long conference.
And by that point, my brain was fried, and I just looked at the dog and thought, like, I wish I could be that dog. If I could just get away and be like the dog and have the ability, or I guess the courage to get out of my seat and get on the floor and just lie down, that would be a nice life to have. But unfortunately, you know, I'm an adult. And so even though I have adhd, I'm still an adult. And so I have some ability, a much better ability than a kid would have to restrain myself and to sit still. And then maybe my mind is wandering, but I'm better able to kind of, you know, control my behavior. But in terms of, like, emotionality, you have to also think about, yes, even kids, when they're getting out of their seat, it's impulsive.
But just like in any other type of therapy besides behavioral therapy, the focus typically is on the whole person, right? So there are thoughts, there are feelings, and there are behaviors that's what cognitive behavior therapy is. But then when you look at the ADHD criteria, it's mostly objective and behavioral, what you can observe. But why is the kid getting out of his seat? Why am I sitting there in the conference as an adult, dying on the inside instead of getting out of my seat? It's because of, you know, and feeling that tension in my body.
There's an emotional component to that. Maybe the kid was bored, maybe he was upset about something and so he automatically got up. And for me, you know, sitting there, it was more like overwhelmed, honestly, because of, you know, the long day. But I guess what I'm saying is when you're thinking about impulsivity, like, yeah, there's the more obvious emotional outbursts, like when you're angry. And that falls under a similar umbrella anyway, because similar brain areas are affected for people who are impulsive and people who respond in an emotionally impulsive way. But yeah, it's hard to tease all of those apart and seems near impossible.
H: I think one of the things that I enjoy most about young kids also seems to be true for adults of all ages with ADHD is that because of social conditioning and also brain development and just different expectations for us at different ages and stages, kids don't think about whether their behavior is appropriate. That word doesn't even enter their mind until some adults drill it in. They just do what the feel like doing. And I think one of the things I've noticed about people with adhd, they always seem to be younger than they actually are. And I used to think, gosh, is it their skincare routine? Do they exercise more?
But what I realize is that most adults, as they get older, because of social conditioning and brain development, they inhibit their spontaneous emotions and actions more. They are more concerned with doing what is right and appropriate for the situation. And that means they're probably less exuberant, less expressive, less playful and less curious. You don't see that as much with people who have adhd. So I think in a way I'm kind of okay with that being considered a neurodevelopmental delay if we retain those behaviors that are more common to young children. The spontaneity, the excitement and exuberance, the playfulness, the curiosity like, I'm totally okay with that.
G: Absolutely. Yep, I've written something very, very similar. And my work on mind wandering and just natural curiosity that kids have, they tend to look at the world in more of a bottom up kind of way, where they're looking at things as if they've never seen them before. And with an open mind, and they tend to mind wonder a lot more, which lends to creativity and to making out of the box connections between different concepts. And as we get older, we develop more and more tunnel vision as we think that we understand the way that the world works. And that can be very limiting because we could be missing important information in that way by just relying on patterns or lessons learned from life rather than looking at things as if they're novel.
Another thing I've noticed, at least from my experience, and this is something I've worked on with my clients too, and I've seen growth with them in that way. But for me, it's like what I've learned is, is that. And I'm sure a lot of people with ADHD can relate to this, but we tend to have a lot of interests or like, our interests might change over time. Like, you know, when I was doing research in graduate school, I was all about peer relationships, friendships, and it's still really interesting to me, but that was like a phase I went through. And then, you know, I became really interested in, like, acceptance and commitment therapy, and that became like a phase.
But it's like you kind of, you discover this subject that's interesting to you, and then you latch on, do a ton of research about it, and then you might move on and think, why did I waste all my time learning about this thing that maybe your brain is telling you is irrelevant to your life in some way. But what I found is that those things later do become relevant a lot of times, because maybe it's the way that you thought about that concept, or it could be specific detail or information about that subject area that you then pull and you integrate into another interest or hobby that you have in your life.
And therefore, you know, there's no surprise that so many, you know, innovators and entrepreneurs are neurodivergent. It's because they have so many different interests, and that makes them, I think, they're thinking, a lot more variable, which is unique. And that's what leads to, you know, inventions.
H: Absolutely. I think it's hard to imagine changing the box from the inside. I think if you go back through history, most of the inventions, innovations, truly original thinking in any field, it's probably a person who's an outlier and maybe even an outsider, a person who doesn't think from the perspective of the status quo. Because the status quo is, like you say, that narrowing down of all the things that we could be considering. We kind of narrow down and then sort of filter out oh, yes, we've already considered that. We're not going to bring that up again, but that really, absolutely interferes and inhibits creativity and innovation.
One of the things I was thinking about as I was going through your book with respect to how we are perceived and treated and responded to as little girls with adhd, both you and I, long before we knew we were little girls with adhd, we were little girls with adhd. And I can say for myself, my daughter, and many of the women that I have worked with, both as a psychotherapist and later as a business coach, there's a lot of trauma there. Maybe it's not trauma with the big T, but trauma with a little T of feeling chronically misunderstood. Several of the women you interviewed for the book talk about that very eloquently. Feeling misunderstood, feeling like they may be able to get themselves to fit in, but they never really feel like they belong.
They might not always pick up on the social cues. They might be thinking well ahead of the rest of the group. So their mind is making connections and they're just leapfrogging ahead and then blurting things out and everyone's like, what are you talking about? They need to fill in all the blanks before they get to that point. And that can really leave a lot of emotional scar tissue. We will get to rejection sensitive dysphoria, which is something that I think, fortunately, we're seeing a lot of attention paid to. But let's talk about the experience of growing up with this chronically feeling misunderstood and like, you're one of these things is not like the others.
G: Sadly and unfortunately, even in the workplace, that is the mental health community, sadly, a community you and I are both members of, some people just don't want to accommodate other people's needs. They don't want to think okay, now, before I give any kind of feedback to Diann or, you know, to you. I have to put it in terms where she's not going to overreact. Some people really resent that. Some people think of it as a creative challenge.
H: But, you know, I think being able to look, as you say, at the whole person. This is one of the most energetic people on the team. This is one of the most creative and original thinkers on the team. This is a person who's really good in a crisis. This is a person who is very concerned about fairness, is always willing to go above and beyond, help others. And sometimes they lose their shit a little bit because they get overwhelmed or they get overwrought or maybe they have, you know, in the case of a therapist, they have a difficult session where they feel, you know, disrespected by a client or judged by a colleague. And that's when you're going to see this dysregulated state that is absolutely as much a part of this person as that whole list of benefits that everyone enjoys so much.
G: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I have clients who ask me, you know, like, why does my brain work like this like, I wish it was different. And then I ask them why, you know. Yes, it's hard right. But then the flip side of that is that if you're not sensitive about this. You wouldn't be necessarily such a sensitive person right. This is what brings you a lot of empathy and it could bring a lot of power to your life, too. Like, every I don't want to jump in and just say, like, ADHD is a this is superpower, you know. Like, I don't think it's global like that, but I do think that we have a lot of strengths, and you can't have strengths without also having weaknesses, especially when, you know the strengths that you have are extreme.
H: And I think these the way I sometimes think of it is like a circuit board or even like the fuses on your house. You know, maybe your laundry room is on the same circuit as your back bathroom. You can't turn off one without turning off the other. So our positive traits, the traits that people enjoy that, you know, often people will say, oh, I love your energy. I know that, I know it's my adhd. I know it but I'm not going to say, oh, thanks, I have adhd. They'll say, I like your energy, or, I love that you are. You always have so many great ideas, or you're always up for a new adventure. They love that.
But they might not love so much that I can get very upset and kind of irrational sometimes, or that I might take criticism way too hard. They don't like that but these are all wired in on the same circuit. And I think to that point, one of the things we see, we have both seen as clinicians is women who got their diagnosis of ADHD well into their adult life. But prior to that they developed a whole lot of anxiety, depression, possibly eating disorders, possibly addictions, a whole lot of self esteem, challenges, maybe, you know, really dysfunctional relationships with other people because they think there's something wrong with them. And some of the people that I've worked with who are actually ADHD and always have been were even told that they're bipolar or that they have a borderline personality disorder.
G: Borderline personality disorder that's very common.
H: Because of those strong emotions.
G: Yes, exactly. Because emotions are not included in the criteria. You know, clinicians are trying to understand what this person is struggling with, and so they give a diagnosis that they think fits based on what's available. And then girls and women, they end up feeling confused. A lot of them I know, have tried specific medications based on their diagnoses and tried this medication and then a different medication and then a third and then a fourth and they keep switching off and nothing's helping them and then they really feel like they're broken.
So diagnosis and having the right diagnosis and making sure that, you know, the criteria really are like specific to, I mean, we can go even more specific beyond that, but at least between the sexes, right, because women are built differently than men biologically. We have different hormones and our hormones vary throughout our lifespans. And that's a major reason that even in animal research, you know, female rodents are less likely to be used because they're not stable variables.
I mean, it's sad for us too, because then it trickles down. It starts with the animal research and then it goes into human research. But even in human researchers, they don't really take the time to compare women to men. So we end up with this misunderstanding of females and specificity and diagnosis would be really, really helpful.
H: I sometimes wonder whether the three different subtypes of ADHD should actually be the same condition, the same diagnosis, simply because, I mean, and we certainly don't want to make it any more difficult for women to be identified. My goodness. We are both involved with an organization that is advocating for helping girls be identified by the age of eight, just like boys. And I think it starts with that but when you consider like the hyperactive impulsive subtype, the inattentive distractible subtype, and the combined type. That's a very different presentation with some of the same struggles, but some real variants.
And I think sometimes I wonder, you know, as a combined type adhd, when I talk about my experience and some of the really cringy moments in my own life, a woman with inattentive, distractible subtype would say, yeah, that no, that's not how it was for me. And one person said, you know, I think you ladies who have more of the hyperactivity and impulsivity are having a lot more fun with this diagnosis than we are, and they may not be wrong about that. What do you think?
G: Glad you said the initial thing that you said where you mentioned that you thought maybe the three presentations should not be three separate presentations, and it should.
H: Just a thought, you know, I'm kind of spitballing it with you.
G: Well, I agree with that, I think it's like, you know, the way I think about it is, like, if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's a duck. I don't think we need to break it down into different presentations. The research shows that the presentations are not even stable over time anyway. Like, you could be diagnosed with adhd combined presentation one day, and then three months later, you're predominantly attentive. So then what's the point if the presentations can vary? The other thing is, you know, the presentations tend to follow a trend. So it's like when you're a kid, maybe you're diagnosed with predominantly hyperactive, impulsive, or combined.
And then as you get older, it looks more inattentive because as what we talked about before, where you're able to rein it in more and control yourself, your prefrontal cortex is hopefully fully developed, and so you're better able to control your behaviors. And so the predominantly inattentive, technically, it looks like it fits better, but you and I both know that adults can struggle with internal restlessness, and that hyperactivity just might look different. So, yeah, I think it just complicates things to me. It's like, I think maybe we jump the gun.
Like, you know, it starts with some basic criteria, and then I think it would have made more sense to then make the criteria a little bit more specific to adults or to at least, you know, again, make the criteria, like, separate, like, boys and girls, or to specify within the criteria what's maybe more frequent, you know, for girls or what are girls more likely to. What are the symptoms that are more likely to show up for girls and women before we could move on and then split it up into different presentations.
The other thing is, I like to compare, like, the diagnostic criteria of ADHD to autism. And, like, autism doesn't have different presentations or subtypes. It's like you're autistic or you're not. I mean, there's different levels, like level one, level two, level three, depending on how much support the person needs. But that makes a lot more sense to me. It's just like a list of symptoms and you just determine based on the list of symptoms whether the person meets criteria between the restricted, like repetitive behaviors and then the social communication. But it isn't divided into different presentations or subtypes so I don't really see the need.
H: Yeah, that makes so much sense, Gilly. And I think, honestly, I don't think if we were to eliminate the different subtypes that it would suddenly make it 10 times easier for girls or women to be identified. There have been decades upon decades of gender bias, and one of the things I say most often on this topic is you simply can't find what you're not looking for.
G: Exactly, exactly.
H: We haven't been looking for it, so we weren't going to find it. And it was, you know, something I've talked about several times on this podcast. I was in grad school in the mid-90s and at that time working with young boys with ADHD because again, at that time only young boys were being identified. I worked in a very well respected institute at UCLA, the Neuropsych Institute. And every single one of the psychiatrists and psychologists and social workers that I work with said we know for a fact that this only affects a small percentage of boys and we also know that they outgrow it by adulthood. Well, you know what? I started meeting a whole lot of dads that were picking up those boys that I was working with. And I'm like, hey folks, I know I'm just a lowly grad student, but I'm pretty sure they don't outgrow this.
And that's actually what I ended up doing my thesis on. And it was still at least a decade later that we finally started seeing ADHD in the adult section, but still no improvement in the specificity for women so we got work to do. Let's talk a little bit about rejection sensitivity, because that is such a hot topic right now. And that is probably of all the different ways that we could try to raise awareness and empower our clients and ourselves and bring just a greater degree of understanding about really what the full spectrum of behavior and thinking and functioning challenges people with ADHD have. Rejection sensitivity is the one that's getting a lot of attention right now, what would you like to say about that.
G: Yeah. So that was actually the concept that drew me to the idea for the book. That's like many other women, I didn't know it existed. And so when I read about it made a lot of sense to me. And then I started discussing it with my clients and sharing, like Attitude magazine at the time that's all there was.
H: Yep.
G: By Dr. Dodson his blogs about RSD and people had such an emotional response to just the label. Just having a name for what they're struggling with. And so I think it inspired a lot of my clients and the parents of young people I was seeing where I said I would describe their responses or their behaviors, and they were like, wow, I didn't even think about it in that way that they're responding to me because of rejection sensitivity. For example like, a really, like, I think, easy to understand scenario is. And if you're raising teens, then I bet you you've experienced this but, like, when parents ask their teen.
Let's say they poke their head into the kitchen and they point out, like, oh, you haven't emptied the dishwasher yet right. There are a lot of different ways that you can respond to that. Like, the first thing you could say is, like, oh, I know, I'll do it in 10 minutes. I was just about to do it. Or, oh, shoot, I forgot right so that's kind of a mild response. But the teens I've seen who tend to struggle with projection sensitivity usually look something like this like, I told you I was gonna do it. Like, you never think, I'm gonna do what I told you I would do. Why are you on my case again and so it comes off as oppositional.
H: Yep.
G: Right like oppositional defiant disorder. And that makes me sad to think that this is the way that clinicians are understanding their responses, because it's so the opposite of that. Like, in a lot of these teens, they're not trying to be oppositional or defiant. They really are just sensitive. And so when their parents say, you haven't emptied the dishwasher yet, they're hearing you're irresponsible or you're oppositional right.
You're doing this on purpose, and they know that they're not. Or it's sort of like covering up also, even if they forgot, maybe they feel ashamed that they forgot. They don't want to be irresponsible, they want to be good kids. And so that's a completely different way, I think, to understand your child. And that is therapeutic within itself, because then the parent is less judgmental, less punitive, and more about, like, problem solving, validation, and trying to understand their child.
H: Yeah, I think it's really interesting how this dynamic shows up so often in families and frankly, in couples where both parties have adhd. You would think what would be logical to assume is that I have ADHD and my kid has adhd because we know this is a genetically transmitted condition, or I have ADHD and my partner or my roommate has adhd. So if I have ADHD and I experience rejection sensitivity, then this other person does too. But so often we're told, wow, you can dish it, but you can't take it because you love to give direct feedback to other people. You give direct feedback to other people, but when someone gives direct feedback to you, it's like, oh, how dare you? You know, like, I'm so offended and it's like, oh, I hate that about me but it's not wrong.
G: Yeah, no, it's not wrong. And I think, one, we can laugh at ourselves for it and that's helpful. But also, you know, again, there are ways people could speak to us and to, you know, girls and women with ADHD and give us that feedback without making it hurtful, because it's still helpful feedback. And then we can try to backtrack and maybe fix our wording or the way that we approach whenever we were dishing it right.
But then, yeah, I think it's also like, I mean, we're not. There's a reason we have issues in relationships, we're not the easiest to, to get along with or to crack, like, to understand. But, yeah, I mean we can try to explain what our struggles are, but I think it takes a special person, patient person, and then if it's a parent, you know, they're stuck with them, so they have to learn.
H: I think most people are baffled by us, Gilly. Even the ones that I would say there's a group of people that I call ADHD enthusiasts. They don't have ADHD themselves, but they have quite a few people with ADHD surrounding them by choice, they enjoy us. They enjoy our sense of humor. They enjoy our energy. They enjoy our, you know, flights of fancy, our side quests and all of our interests, and they just think we're just a lot of fun.
But I think the emotional outbursts and the emotional reactivity baffles even them, and it really baffles us. I think most of us, in my experience, do have, like, patterns we have certain triggers that there are things that are more likely to set me off than not. But sometimes it comes as a complete, unexpected. And next thing you know, you're either like, so upset, you're speechless, which for me to be speechless is takes quite a lot, but sometimes I'm just like, in tears.
And I think that when that's part of your presentation in childhood, that can lead to social rejection, isolation, bullying, and being told you're extra, you're too much. I think for women with ADHD have grown up with this. This juxtaposition in our heads of being told we're too much and believing it, but also thinking we're not enough because we're culturally conditioned. All women think they're not enough, but we have that extra bonus. Well, I'm not enough and I'm too much, which is super confusing. Have you ever had that thought yourself?
G: Yes. And I think the not enough feeling is it's sensory too, you know, like with rsd. The other piece of it that I think a lot of people have connected to is the fact that there's like, a description of the physiological response, you know, and Dr. Dodson has described it based on what his clients have told him, that it feels like you're like being stabbed in the chest. And I think it's a little bit more maybe it happens that way for a lot of people, but I think it's more just pain. It's hard for me to really describe it. It's more just the same pain and yeah, like, in my over here, like my chest, my tummy.
But like, there are moments where, you know, I feel like I failed at something and I will just. I've just like started crying and I just told my husband, like, it hurts like it physically, like, physically hurts. And so I think, you know, that's a big part of it for me too. When I think about, like, the feelings of not enough. And I think that, you know, more attention also need needs to be paid to, because this goes hand in hand with emotions too. The physiological response and the maybe the sensory over response to feelings of rejection. And yeah, I describe a lot of the neurology and the just the biology, like explaining why is this more relevant to females.
H: Absolutely. Now, you majored in creative writing in school, and you're an excellent writer. We recently shared an experience where I got to see some of your writing apart from the book. And you remember I told you I thought it was delightful, but it's undeniable that if you are a creator, if you're a writer, a creative writer, even a nonfiction writer, you are going to experience rejection. And so something I'm fascinated about is a lot of people with ADHD are writers. A lot of them. They may be journalists, they may write for publications, they may author books.
But I would like to know if it's not too personal that you decided to write this book, and I'm so glad you did. And there's an undeniable gauntlet that you have to deal with, because there are things that might be rejected. Now, you worked with a publisher. They probably didn't approve of 100% of what you wanted to do. Maybe they changed the title, maybe they changed the cover art. Maybe they wanted you to add things and take things out.
What was it like for you to go through that process and just managing your own emotional reactivity and dysregulation and specifically with respect to rejection in order to get the book published? Because I know so many people, some of them have been clients who want to do something of that magnitude. And yet the possibility that they're going to experience rejection, not just throughout the process, but even after the work is completed is just daunting for them, and they just can't do it.
G: Yeah. So I think the hardest part was actually the waiting like, waiting for answers. When you're a writer, people don't even answer you if it's a rejection. They don't even let you know.
H: They just ghost you, yeah.
G: Yeah, exactly. So you're, like, in limbo so that's the hardest. It still is the hardest part for me. I think with rejection, it's never easy, but I think when it's something that you really, really love and you're really passionate about, if you practice feeling rejected, it actually does habituate. Like, you habituate to that part of the process. You know, actually, just today, I got a rejection from a major media outlet that was going to include excerpts from my book. And I honestly hated the waiting and the not knowing more than the answer because you see it as, like, part of the process.
It's a numbers game, there are people who are going to reject you, and you also have to think, most people will reject me. If you're going into the arts, there's going to be more rejections than acceptances. I think they're also just kind of helpful ways of thinking. I messaged my dad, and I told him that I was rejected, and then he goes, you know, he says what any parent would says, say he's just like, screw them. You know, he's like, in the future, they'll be approaching you.
So then I said, that's right like Albert Einstein right. I'll tell them to wait for the red roses. You know, turn it as a joke. Because, basically there are a lot of very successful and famous people who failed a lot in the beginning and who were rejected. And we laugh about that now because they made it, but they went through that too so remind yourself of that.
H: I don't think I've ever heard anyone say, practice feeling rejected. And yet, the moment you said it, at first I wanted to giggle because I'm like, that's fucking brilliant. But secondly, I realize, you know, you and I, as mental health practitioners have probably both done, like, progressive desensitization work with clients with phobias. And so how do you desensitize someone to a phobia? By giving them exposure to it in small doses so that they can. They realize, oh, I am coping with this. I'm uncomfortable, but I'm not losing my mind. And little by little by little, it's like, I think I can get in that elevator or take that flight or be in the same room with a spider.
G: But you dip yourself into a tub with spiders.
H: Well, I probably wouldn't go that far, but maybe plastic spiders. But practicing feeling rejected and really taking it on as a creative and developmental challenge, because it's just part of the path and you want what's on the other side of it, and you also reach out to supportive resources. You knew what your dad was going to say before you messaged him. And you messaged him, because even at that moment, you're like, oh, I knew he was going to say this, but it still helped, right?
G: Yeah. I mean, I messaged him, so he's informed, too. But I think, yeah, yeah, I mean, getting support, for sure, yes, it's really helpful, especially for rsd, just getting praise and reassurance for people who care about you. That's helpful. But I think the other thing about, like, when okay, for example, as a writer, it's like, I'm putting myself out there. If I don't put myself out there, I won't get rejected, but I'm taking that risk and I'm putting myself out there, and in my mind, that's within my control.
You know, like, I'm putting myself out there, and then I know there's the possibility of rejection. I think what's worse is if you're just like, living day to day and you're not really taking risks and you just have your like 9 to 5 job and then your boss calls you and they're like, hey, we need to talk. Because that is totally random and, you know, kind of, I guess, takes you by surprise.
And then to me, that's scarier because if you're putting yourself in the position purposefully with the knowledge that you know you might get rejected, and then you do it over and over and over and over and over again, and you notice that, like, most of the time there are going to be rejections, but then every now and then there's one acceptance, and then that brings you slowly, slowly, like, closer to your goal. I feel like that's a learning experience. You learn that it's all about persisting right. You just keep going.
H: You know what? I'm really glad you brought that up, Gilly. That's a really important point because if we decide to put ourselves out there, if we decide we're going to be entrepreneurs and we're going to make a living from our own skills. Okay, this is part of what you're signing up for being ignored. That's, you know, and I agree with you I would rather someone say you suck than hear nothing at all, because my imagination will just take my for a wild ride. And I don't like waiting for anything anytime. But I think that the notion that, okay, you. That is part of what you sign for. Don't tell yourself it isn't and you can learn how to get better at it. But it's the element of surprise when you're trying to play it safe.
G: Yes.
H: Trying to put yourself in a set of circumstances where you're not going to experience things like that because you know you're not good at it. And it happens anyway what is one either a mindset shift or an actual strategy someone can start to use to get a little bit better at dealing with the unexpected things that trigger rejection sensitivity.
G: Good question. I think when it's unexpected, it feels like a hit because it's unexpected.
H: Exactly.
G: And in those moments, I would say be kind to yourself. I think it's helpful to have the language and to understand what rejection sensitivity is and that it even exists and that maybe it's more likely for women with adhd, which is research is showing so far, although most of it has focused mostly on women, so we'd have to see more comparisons between women and men. But understanding this is a thing for you, that this is the way that your brain works. It's what makes things really hard, but it's also what makes you a really beautiful and compassionate and driven person.
And I think that without the pain and without the challenge, because we thrive off of challenge. So according to Dr. Dodson, ADHDers perform well in a few different conditions or a few different conditions increase motivation for people with adhd snd one of that is challenge. And so I think that when we get that negative feedback, you need to give yourself some time to recover. You know, be kind to yourself, ride the wave of the emotions like you're not you when you're hungry. It's the same thing in the moment.
You need to give yourself time to come back down to baseline. And then once you feel semi collected, then you can start to address, you know, what do I want to do with this information? Okay, you know, like I was told X, Y and Z, that really hurts me is this something that I feel like I could change or is this something that is so big that I feel like I might want to make an environmental or like an occupational change?
And I'm assuming that a lot of people with ADHD end up like maybe leaving positions because they have felt misunderstood, disrespected and hurt and they're kind of done with it. And that's when they make the choice to go out on their own and be solopreneurs and start doing more work independently, which may be a better decision for them. But initially there's that pain and then once you've got the ability to put your ducks in a row, then you make improvements in your life.
H: You know what you actually took the words right out of my mouth because I think a lot of people, many people who have adhd, start businesses because they couldn't imagine working for a boss. They know themselves and they're like, oh hell no. But a lot of people also end up in entrepreneurship the hard way because they either keep getting fired or they keep quitting. And eventually they're like, you know what, I'm unemployable. I got to figure out how I'm going to make this work on my own. I've been trialing a wrap up question for my interviews, and in so many ways you've already answered it, but I'm going to ask it anyway, and that is this. If you were trying to explain to an entrepreneur who's neurotypical, not like us, why having ADHD could be an advantage in business. What would you tell them?
G: I don't know if you've gotten this answer a lot, but I feel like it's the best one. It's the fact that we think differently. I guess I'll give you, like, a little bit of an analogy, because that's just how my brain works. So I was working with a kid who was elected into a position in her school, and she made a comment to me like, I just don't feel like I'm good enough, they're all so extroverted, and I'm just not like that. And so I paused and I said to her, you know what, you're right because most groups and teams, they need people who are exactly the same.
And she starts laughing and she goes, you're right and it's true. You know, if you have no diversity of thought on your team, then it's static and you just blend in. And the benefit of having someone who thinks in a way that's more out of the box, who maybe takes a little bit of time to come up with good answers, but then when they do, it's excellent, and it could completely shift the trajectory of your organization. It's worth it to hire people like that.
