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“You can’t suck and blow at the same time. We’re talking about keeping our elbows up by Canadian support. Canadian. And then you have these draconian policies being implemented at all levels of government,” says Richard lee, Executive Director of the Ontario Greenhouse Vegetable Growers Association, who joins Trina Semenchuk on Greenhouse Success Stories to expose the mounting obstacles faced by greenhouse growers in Ontario.
With decades of experience blending entrepreneurial spirit and environmental advocacy, Richard shares how everything from waste management to property taxation threatens the Canadian greenhouse sector’s growth and sustainability—and why municipalities might be driving innovative producers out of the country. His first-hand accounts reveal both crisis and opportunity, making for a provocative conversation anyone interested in the future of food, farming, and Canadian innovation shouldn’t miss.
5 Key Takeaways
- Collaboration makes solutions possible—reach out to local municipalities, associations, and stakeholders to advocate for greenhouse-friendly policies before you build or expand.
- Waste is opportunity in disguise. Audit your greenhouse packaging and waste streams, and connect with innovative recyclers to pioneer sustainable, circular solutions.
- Fight for unified, fair regulations. Lend your voice to push for harmonized recycling, infrastructure, and trade policies that empower—not restrict—growers.
- Don’t wait for disaster—secure your business. Work with associations to advocate for payment protection, business risk programs, and fair access to trade markets now.
- Build strong relationships with community leaders. Schedule ongoing meetings, invite them on greenhouse tours, and celebrate shared successes to strengthen support for your operation’s future.
Memorable Quotes
"You can't suck and blow at the same time. We're talking about keeping our elbows up by Canadian support, and then you have these draconian policies being implemented at all levels of government. Don't get me wrong, it's not just municipalities that aim to contradict any future investment in greenhouse."
"We need to be proactive, not reactive. We keep playing this game of whack-a-mole—something pops up, we whack it, we're just chasing issues. We know what the growth trajectory is, we know what we need to do to support that trajectory. The question now becomes, do you want to support it? That's at the municipal, provincial, and federal level."
"Controlled environment agriculture, greenhouse is the future of agriculture and is where we need to continue to put our resources. The future is going to be bright, but we need to be proactive to support it."
Connect with Richard
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/richard-lee-a8312b25b/
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Transcripts
You can't suck and blow at the same time. We're talking about keeping our
Speaker:elbows up by Canadian support. Canadian. And then you have these
Speaker:draconian policies being implemented at all levels of government. Don't
Speaker:get me wrong, it's not just municipalities that aim
Speaker:to contradict any future investment
Speaker:in greenhouse in your municipalities.
Speaker:Okay, thank you for being on this show, Richard.
Speaker:Today we have Richard Lee. He is the executive
Speaker:director of of the Ontario Greenhouse Vegetable
Speaker:Growers Association. So we'll be getting
Speaker:a lot of insight on the industry today instead of directly from
Speaker:the growers. So this shill be a really good addition to the podcast.
Speaker:So thank you for joining, Richard. Thanks for having me, Trina.
Speaker:So I, I did a bit of research, you know, prior to this
Speaker:episode and I saw you're with the Vegetable growers
Speaker:association for 18 years and I just got
Speaker:curious because I saw before then you were an environmental
Speaker:consultant. So I was wondering if you could maybe
Speaker:explain a bit of your background on, you know, where
Speaker:you were before the Vegetable Growers association and
Speaker:how you got into the industry. Absolutely.
Speaker:So just a point of clarification, it's 19 years, I'm going
Speaker:on 20, so I'm going to make sure I get every bit
Speaker:of my years of service as I can. So
Speaker:yeah, this is my 19th year. Next year I'll be beginning my 20th.
Speaker:So my background has been I was
Speaker:an entrepreneur originally before entering university
Speaker:and little stint in law enforcement as well as
Speaker:automotive. During the downturn in automotive in the
Speaker:late 90s, I had an opportunity that I
Speaker:could engage in meeting some of the
Speaker:ISO14001 requirements which were
Speaker:aimed at environmental sustainability. I
Speaker:created a consulting business where I was able to help
Speaker:automotive manage some of their waste, their
Speaker:waste streams, whether it be cardboard, plastics,
Speaker:steel, aluminum. I was able to provide them
Speaker:opportunities to be compliant with the new
Speaker:new compliance requirements. My
Speaker:secretary at the time was working for me and
Speaker:moved on to work with Ontario greenhouse vegetable growers. It
Speaker:was approximately three, four years when she
Speaker:tendered her resignation that she reached out to me and
Speaker:asked me if I was looking for a job. At the time,
Speaker:OGVG was looking for a compliance
Speaker:officer, someone to create regulations and an
Speaker:enforcement program which I applied and was
Speaker:successful with my application, ultimately leading
Speaker:to inheriting greater responsibility that included
Speaker:operational aspects of ogbg. And when the
Speaker:opportunity came up, approximately two and a half years
Speaker:ago, I was promoted to the executive director of the Ontario
Speaker:Greenhouse Vegetable Hours. Okay,
Speaker:that's a unique story. Unconventional path, Trina.
Speaker:Very, very unconventional path. What got
Speaker:you interested in
Speaker:environmental and sustainability? I know you mentioned that
Speaker:ISO opportunity presented itself, but did you feel
Speaker:like you had a calling to do something sustainable?
Speaker:I wouldn't say necessarily sustainable. That's that word
Speaker:sustainability means so much and different
Speaker:meanings to everyone. Right. Especially over the last five years.
Speaker:I like to think that that was my entrepreneurial spirit
Speaker:shining through. And I saw an opportunity where I
Speaker:would be able to fix an issue that's created by all
Speaker:of automotive and provide solutions.
Speaker:It's kind of funny, right? Because now my daughter's going through this
Speaker:right now and trying to identify a career path. She's gone to
Speaker:school for a specific discipline. And
Speaker:you start looking at what your future is going to look like. What do you
Speaker:want out of life? What do you want that's going to be
Speaker:rewarding? And to me it was something different.
Speaker:Something different every day, a challenge,
Speaker:continued learning and continued education.
Speaker:So when I saw this opportunity, I quickly put
Speaker:together programs based on relationships that I had with
Speaker:plants across North America and I was able to find
Speaker:solutions for them. And it worked well until there was another
Speaker:downturn in the automotive sector
Speaker:and ultimately led to where I
Speaker:am today. Interesting. I, you know, this is
Speaker:obviously the greenhouse podcast, so I'm going to start asking you questions
Speaker:about the Vegetable Growers Association. But just one more
Speaker:question on that out of pure curiosity, like what
Speaker:were kind of those solutions that you were finding? Were you,
Speaker:you know, sourcing other uses for the waste
Speaker:that they were creating and trying to create something like a circular economy
Speaker:or how. How were you helping them meet compliance
Speaker:Question? Yeah, waste diversion. So,
Speaker:you know, a lot of the plastic products that we currently
Speaker:have have a mixture of regrind as well as virgin
Speaker:material. At the time I had collaborated with
Speaker:companies across Ontario, some in the Michigan area
Speaker:as well, where I would source product
Speaker:globally or through North America as well. Bring
Speaker:those polymers into our processing
Speaker:plant here in Windsor. We would separate polymers based
Speaker:on density and type and we would regrind
Speaker:the plastic that regrind could be sold
Speaker:back to processors that can mix that
Speaker:regrind into injection of
Speaker:bumpers maybe or potentially
Speaker:body panels, cladding on
Speaker:vehicles, you know, the composite deck
Speaker:boards that people are using I know there's some,
Speaker:some commercial names, but they all
Speaker:used a polyethylene, a linear, low
Speaker:poly, linear low density polyethylene
Speaker:that was sourced by milk jugs and you know,
Speaker:milk jugs that had polypropylene cap. So you had to
Speaker:have the process to be able to separate those polymers
Speaker:and then reintroduce it into an end product.
Speaker:So I found solutions both locally in
Speaker:North America and at the time there was a big
Speaker:market in the Asian markets that could take bale film,
Speaker:bail plastics because their labor was so slow,
Speaker:cheap, they could sort all the contamination,
Speaker:cross contamination, okay. At a very low
Speaker:cost. Do you see something similar being
Speaker:done in the greenhouse sector for the packaging that
Speaker:people are using? Because I know, you know, if your plastics are
Speaker:labeled like your clamshells, you can recycle them, but then
Speaker:they get mixed. And if you have mixed plastics coming down the same
Speaker:stream, then they've got their different melting temperatures and
Speaker:it's hard to separate, to separate them. So I
Speaker:was wondering if. Yeah. If you've
Speaker:seen any initiatives happening like that with the
Speaker:greenhouse space. Yeah, that's a good question. We've
Speaker:testified before the Ag Senate Committee in
Speaker:Ottawa a couple times on the plastics movements.
Speaker:Right. I'd like to think that agriculture,
Speaker:greenhouse specifically has been very supportive of
Speaker:sustainability and sustainable packages.
Speaker:They have invested, when I say they, the growers, the
Speaker:marketers have invested millions upon millions
Speaker:to make sure that they are reducing their reliance on
Speaker:plastic and seeking alternate sources,
Speaker:recognizing that the future of plastic
Speaker:is going to be limited and we need to still
Speaker:protect and preserve the produce to ensure that
Speaker:it is in a form that is
Speaker:viable for long shipments. Like we're
Speaker:talking shipments, we ship as far down south as Florida
Speaker:and as all along the eastern seaboard. So
Speaker:it's not like some of the policies created in the EU
Speaker:where they have relatively short travel times
Speaker:and their produce is not exposed to some of the elements
Speaker:that we experience. So when you think about
Speaker:sustainable packaging, what you see left
Speaker:in plastic is out of necessity.
Speaker:We've reduced everything else and we are
Speaker:utilizing plastics where we have to as a last resort to
Speaker:preserve that integrity and quality of that product.
Speaker:When you look at recycling solutions, it's
Speaker:important to ensure that we have a global solution or
Speaker:in the, at minimum, a North American solution to
Speaker:ensure that we remain competitive. That's the last
Speaker:thing we, we should be focusing on is
Speaker:individual solutions based on municipalities or
Speaker:provinces that have no alignment across
Speaker:Canada that could put us at an unfair competitive advantage.
Speaker:So we need to harmonize that Approach ensure that the
Speaker:MRFs collecting these recyclables
Speaker:have the proper ability to sort
Speaker:them or collect them and have a central sorting
Speaker:solution. Or look at a collaborative approach
Speaker:of service providers across North America that are able to
Speaker:take these plastics and have an end use for them. Have you
Speaker:ever worked with a service provider in North America
Speaker:on this concept or have seen people in the,
Speaker:in the association working with service providers to develop,
Speaker:you know, truly reusable recyclable plastics of
Speaker:their clamshells? Good question. So some of my
Speaker:contacts have identified the
Speaker:opportunity to capture greenhouse waste
Speaker:and have been in contact with me over the last,
Speaker:I'm going to say year in trying to identify
Speaker:solutions. And the problem comes back down to the federal,
Speaker:provincial and municipal barriers that
Speaker:don't know how they can collect it. He's willing to take all of this,
Speaker:whether it be household plastics or consumer
Speaker:products. He's willing to take it all and they have solutions for it.
Speaker:So when you look at our reducing our reliance on
Speaker:the EU as well as Asian markets, we look
Speaker:at domestic sources and when I say domestic,
Speaker:sure it's Canada, but we're connected at the hip, Canada and
Speaker:US and if they're able to source these materials
Speaker:locally and invest in the processing locally,
Speaker:we have solutions now in North America that
Speaker:could address some of this use plastic
Speaker:nuisances that are created with one time used plastics.
Speaker:Okay, so this is, you know, this is my last question sort of on this
Speaker:topic, but that person that you mentioned, so
Speaker:would that look like he would, you know, set up a service where he's
Speaker:collecting only plastics. So people get an only
Speaker:plastics bin at their household or you know,
Speaker:at their residential unit and then he comes around with his own service to collect
Speaker:that. You're thinking at the post consumer level. Right.
Speaker:And the problem with any type of plastics or
Speaker:plastics result recycling. You need the volumes,
Speaker:you need the volumes to make them economically viable. So
Speaker:he's willing, his name's Gerald. Actually Gerald's willing to
Speaker:put together a program. But we need the support of the
Speaker:province, we need the support of the municipalities to be alive. We
Speaker:need the resources to ensure that is collected properly.
Speaker:That is has been the impediment at the
Speaker:roadside collection. And you're talking about a circular economy.
Speaker:How do you gather those plastics
Speaker:if you can't even train your constituents
Speaker:or residents in your municipality to sort of. It's
Speaker:an ongoing challenge, starts from the ground up. And are there
Speaker:solutions? Absolutely. But we need help from the province
Speaker:and municipalities to invest into a
Speaker:robust collection system. So that they're able to
Speaker:reuse and recycle as opposed to
Speaker:landfilling. Is this waste? Yeah. Right.
Speaker:So is that one of the roles of
Speaker:the Ontario Vegetable Greenhouse Growers association is to look
Speaker:for ways to collaborate, collaborate with municipalities and governments to help
Speaker:get services in place to help greenhouse growers
Speaker:succeed? Absolutely. So it's Ontario Greenhouse Vegetable
Speaker:Growers, and one of our mandates is advocacy best
Speaker:represented in our sector, to be able to identify
Speaker:solutions and enable our members to be successful.
Speaker:So, you know, you look at waste diversion, it doesn't have to be
Speaker:sustainability and packaging. It could be disposal of
Speaker:vines, vines that have cross contamination
Speaker:in, you know, the string that's used
Speaker:to lead the vines up while they're growing. It could
Speaker:be in the coals. Right. That we're currently,
Speaker:we're currently taking off the plant to ensure that health
Speaker:fruit is, is, is growing on the vine. The
Speaker:challenge comes is, is that tipping costs at local
Speaker:landfills is continuing to rise. And
Speaker:when you look at the sheer volume of the greenhouse waste that's
Speaker:created, it's only a matter of time that they close those
Speaker:doors to us. We need to look at waste
Speaker:diversion alternatives. We need to ensure that,
Speaker:you know, land application is one option. The
Speaker:problem is when you start dealing with disease and pests,
Speaker:what is the potential of those diseases and
Speaker:pests expanding to field farming or
Speaker:harboring a very mild winter and reintroducing
Speaker:themselves into greenhouse and impacting our
Speaker:production base? So we want to be responsible, we want to be
Speaker:sustainable, we want to be environmentally conscious. We
Speaker:just. At the end of the day, it also comes at a cost and a
Speaker:cost, not only financially, but managing our current
Speaker:greenhouse operations. Right? Yeah. And there's a lot
Speaker:of different moving parts that you have to consider when
Speaker:assessing the viability of these options.
Speaker:So just on this topic, I'm
Speaker:wondering if you could tell me a bit about story of one time
Speaker:where the Ontario Vegetable Greenhouse Growers
Speaker:association advocated and worked
Speaker:with the municipality, the government, to set up a
Speaker:successful program that helped empower growers.
Speaker:Yeah, so there's. There's a couple things, right. Like bill
Speaker:C280 was payment protection is a perfect
Speaker:example of where greenhouse is probably one of
Speaker:the only commodities that we don't have production
Speaker:or production insurance to ensure that growers are paid
Speaker:in the event of bankruptcy or insolvency.
Speaker:We had a large marketer that claimed
Speaker:bankruptcy approximately four years ago that
Speaker:resulted in catastrophic losses, losses that
Speaker:most small farms would not be able to sustain.
Speaker:We export about 85% of our producer
Speaker:to the US, they have what's called PACA Trust,
Speaker:which essentially ensures those selling produce
Speaker:into the US Are paid for the produce that they grow.
Speaker:It's a fundamental philosophy to ensure that
Speaker:you're paid for the product that you farm and grow. Right.
Speaker:Well, PACA decided to
Speaker:rescind the reciprocity offered to Canadian
Speaker:shippers because Canada didn't have a similar program.
Speaker:So now our shippers were not protected.
Speaker:We had introduced a bill, Bill C280. And when I say
Speaker:we. One of the MPs from the Holland Marsh area,
Speaker:Scott Davidson, was a champion on this bill.
Speaker:And we went through a litany of testimony leading
Speaker:up to the election, and in the 11th hour, the bill was
Speaker:passed. That was a monumental win that has
Speaker:been going on for over so the years. There's always a
Speaker:disparity in the years. Some of our. My elders that are in the sector
Speaker:say it's 35, some are saying it's 40 years. The best
Speaker:I can ascertain is over 35 years we've been
Speaker:working on payment protection to protect fresh
Speaker:fruit and vegetable growers to ensure they're paid.
Speaker:And that legislation was passed prior to the election.
Speaker:Now, based on the trade challenges we're facing
Speaker:right now, doesn't look like anything has moved forward as
Speaker:far as enacting that payment protection program,
Speaker:much less getting the reciprocity reinstated by paca.
Speaker:That was a perfect example. Years and years of
Speaker:consistent messaging to protect our farmers
Speaker:to ensure their pay finally came to fruition
Speaker:after all these years. Wow. Another
Speaker:example would be carbon tax. I know it may
Speaker:not have been just our advocacy or our
Speaker:lobbying efforts, but, you know, in
Speaker:2024, I think we were
Speaker:paying approximately $24 million
Speaker:in carbon taxes. And if it were
Speaker:to continue, not be paused, we would be
Speaker:paying over $30 million this year for carbon tax
Speaker:alone. So, you know,
Speaker:I like to think that our advocacy or continued
Speaker:messaging and collaboration with government had some
Speaker:input in having those carbon
Speaker:taxes paused. Especially to support growing cheap. Right?
Speaker:Especially to support that. Recognizing we don't have alternate fuel
Speaker:sources to heat greenhouses. And we need that recognized by
Speaker:the government. We need to also ensure that they understand that
Speaker:we're recapturing CO2 being emitted from our
Speaker:boilers and we're reintroducing that
Speaker:to greenhouses. And there's no
Speaker:reward for being directionally correct. Instead, we're
Speaker:penalized. And again, once. And that's with a
Speaker:significant discount, too. That's it. Like over.
Speaker:I think it was 80 or 85%. The fact the figures,
Speaker:exact figures escape me. Right now, Trina. But that was with an exemption
Speaker:of 85%. Could you imagine could be even as high as 90.
Speaker:Could you imagine what our members would be paying if we didn't have
Speaker:that exemption? You would not have
Speaker:agriculture in Canada. It it that
Speaker:that carbon tax was not exempted or paused,
Speaker:apparently. Right. And also like the
Speaker:price of produce for the end consumer for,
Speaker:you know, wanting to buy local would
Speaker:likely be, you know, a lot higher than it would be.
Speaker:Thank goodness that you got it. Yeah. You're talking about the affordability
Speaker:crisis, which is probably an hour on its own. Right. Because
Speaker:you look at the cost of labor, the cost of energy to
Speaker:run a greenhouse. Those are two largest input costs.
Speaker:Yeah. If we didn't have that temporary foreign worker program, which is another
Speaker:program we continue to advocate for, we wouldn't have
Speaker:agriculture in Ontario. We would not be able
Speaker:to have domestic workforce working in a greenhouse
Speaker:harvesting crop and being a crop. It's
Speaker:unfortunate, but greenhouse isn't sexy. Farming
Speaker:isn't sexy. And we've seen a significant
Speaker:increase in the unemployment rate as it relates to
Speaker:domestic workforce supporting agriculture. And we
Speaker:rely heavily on that program. That's one thing the government has
Speaker:gotten right is creating this temporary farm with the program.
Speaker:The challenge we face now is ongoing
Speaker:changes to the program that could have
Speaker:detrimental impacts on our members and farms.
Speaker:So when it comes to, you know, your advocacy work, what would you
Speaker:say is the biggest challenge to, you know,
Speaker:pushing the needs of the members of your
Speaker:association forward? Like is it communicating with government
Speaker:or is it, you know, even getting time to speak with them?
Speaker:Or is it, you know, coordinating between all members to
Speaker:identify key issues like what would you say? Yeah,
Speaker:so we have a board of directors that represent our members
Speaker:and they provide guidance to staff on what
Speaker:deliverables looking for us to execute. I mean, when you look
Speaker:at it, we're a provincial organization. We're a significant
Speaker:provincial organization with farm gate value
Speaker:at in excess of $1.8
Speaker:billion. And we also
Speaker:collaborate with national organizations. Right. So we have
Speaker:Fruit and Vegetable Growers of Canada, Canadian Produce Marketing
Speaker:Association. We have Canadian Federation of
Speaker:Agriculture. And those alliances allow us
Speaker:to get the audience which we before our federal government
Speaker:because we export so much. Trina. Obviously,
Speaker:trade and market access is one of our key priorities. Ensuring
Speaker:their borders are open and that we have a strategy
Speaker:that protects our production base in North America.
Speaker:Policies that are friendly to agriculture and
Speaker:conducive to investment. Business risk
Speaker:management programs. That seems to be the latest
Speaker:buzzword at provincial and federal level. And modernizing
Speaker:those Programs and ultimately infrastructure.
Speaker:And infrastructure. It all flows down from the federal level. Right.
Speaker:Federal level provides funding to provinces,
Speaker:provinces fund municipalities, and
Speaker:we need to make sure that agriculture is carved out
Speaker:there as well. Okay, so you've
Speaker:mentioned trade a little bit. So I want to spend some time talking about
Speaker:trade and the introduction of these tariffs.
Speaker:What has been, you know, your experience and role in
Speaker:negotiating or playing a part of seeing
Speaker:how we can manage trade with
Speaker:greenhouse growers in Ontario, given these tariffs?
Speaker:And what do you think? How do you think this is going to impact
Speaker:greenhouse growers in Ontario and in Canada? If you could
Speaker:talk a bit about that. So let's just clarify something.
Speaker:Tariffs are not in place currently, are they, Gina? Because if you know something
Speaker:I don't know, we just have a threat of tariffs.
Speaker:Yes. So. So the letter that President
Speaker:Trump issued is. Is in fact just that, a letter.
Speaker:Right. It's a letter indicating that there could
Speaker:be broad tariffs applied as of this Friday
Speaker:against all commodities entering the US So if
Speaker:you recall back in January, President Trump. Trump
Speaker:was being inaugurated. Right. And there were some significant threads
Speaker:and reservations of, of what he could and
Speaker:potentially could do over those next
Speaker:couple of months. You know, he created some
Speaker:significant reservations, reservations that dictated
Speaker:pausing of investments, growth, and
Speaker:seizing opportunities for our members. As we've
Speaker:indicated, over. You know, we export
Speaker:1.6 billion of our product, the US
Speaker:85% of our production. We feed Canada first,
Speaker:but the US is our market. You know, Canada
Speaker:is a tenth of the US population. So
Speaker:we monitored these threats and we took them seriously.
Speaker:From January. Yeah. In March, if you recall.
Speaker:And I've been quoted as, as on this before,
Speaker:it felt like I woke up from a bad nightmare. And that
Speaker:nightmare became reality because when I woke up on that
Speaker:Thursday morning. Wednesday morning or Thursday
Speaker:morning, regardless, tariffs were in place of
Speaker:25% against all commodities entering the U.S.
Speaker:how do you stop shipment of a perishable product that's been
Speaker:picked, packed and on a truck?
Speaker:In those three days that our members continued
Speaker:shipments to the U.S. we paid $7 million
Speaker:in tariffs. Wow, that's in three days.
Speaker:And no opportunity or chance of recovering
Speaker:that cost of doing business in preparation
Speaker:for those tariffs. Just a quick question. So $7
Speaker:million amongst how many
Speaker:growers or businesses? And I know you
Speaker:know, you've got a few that they, they manage,
Speaker:they oversee a couple of different ones, but just in general.
Speaker:So we have growers, we have packers and
Speaker:marketers. Growers can only grow. Packers can only acknowledge. Marketers can
Speaker:only sell producers. Yeah. So we have 170
Speaker:growers and marketers were approximately 32 marketers.
Speaker:So those marketers are representing growers produce
Speaker:and are shipping to the U.S. so those marketers
Speaker:have been in discussions with their
Speaker:retail and consumers to say, listen, these
Speaker:tariffs are not something we can absorb. There is
Speaker:no margins, definitely not 25%
Speaker:margins in the supply chain that can absorb these
Speaker:costs. So in most instances, retailers were
Speaker:willing to take on some if not all of those tariffs.
Speaker:The problem was because they came in so quickly,
Speaker:purchase orders were already issued that week.
Speaker:So retailers were indicating, hey, listen, happy to,
Speaker:to amend our purchase order for the, the following
Speaker:week, but this week it stands as
Speaker:it is. Right. So the
Speaker:challenge was there, it was that once the tariffs were called off,
Speaker:they rescinded those purchase orders with increased tariff
Speaker:amounts and we got stuck with a $7 million
Speaker:bill. There was 1.8 billion in export activity,
Speaker:not 1.6, 1.8 billion.
Speaker:So then who ended up paying that 7 million? Was it
Speaker:divided amongst like those 202 businesses
Speaker:in total? How did, how did that work?
Speaker:Ultimately the grower is the one left holding the bag. Right, because
Speaker:it's their product. Yeah. The marketer is just the agent
Speaker:of sale. And their returns would have been depressed
Speaker:for those three that week. By the time they accounted for that sale,
Speaker:they would have suffered some significant losses this
Speaker:year. I mean, we were talking about $100,000
Speaker:for, for these growers. That's a huge cost
Speaker:out of nowhere. And you know, you are asking about the
Speaker:volume and what goes over the border. We produce over
Speaker:510 million kg of produce
Speaker:in one year. To put that into context,
Speaker:that's about 300 trailer truckloads leaving farms
Speaker:daily to service consumers. Two thirds,
Speaker:two thirds of those trucks are headed south of the
Speaker:border. So if you put
Speaker:that into context, those three days we had 600 trucks
Speaker:crossing the border that were subjected to those
Speaker:tariffs of $7 million. Yeah, I like it when
Speaker:you break it down based on trucks. For the visual learner, it's like
Speaker:easier to comprehend how much produce
Speaker:that really is. Moving
Speaker:forward, as your role in the
Speaker:association, what would you say the biggest challenge today is
Speaker:for supporting the greenhouse growers and the
Speaker:marketers and the whole industry in Ontario? What would you,
Speaker:what would you say that is? I like to break it in everything into
Speaker:priorities. Right. Top three priorities, trade, trade access
Speaker:policies. And I, I would put business risk management
Speaker:programs in those policies. Because without friendly policies,
Speaker:you're closing the door to investment and growth in Canada.
Speaker:And lastly, infrastructure. Because without the infrastructure,
Speaker:you're not able to grow, you're not able to remain competitive. You're
Speaker:making capital investments to ensure that you
Speaker:remain viable. That comes at a cost.
Speaker:And can you talk a bit about the infrastructure restrictions that are
Speaker:being placed now on growers who want to expand or
Speaker:new growers who want to get into the market in terms of getting
Speaker:access to energy and water?
Speaker:Yeah. So I mean we've had some challenges with hydro
Speaker:natural gas as well as water and wastewater. Right.
Speaker:And I'll start west and work my way east, recognizing
Speaker:that we represent Ontario, southwestern Ontario.
Speaker:80% of the acreage is located in the Kingsville Leamington
Speaker:area. So that gives you a sense of the number of
Speaker:acreage and investment dollars have been made in the sector.
Speaker:We have municipalities, we want to remain
Speaker:competitive. So we have year round production now. Right.
Speaker:And the only way we can can remain competitive with year
Speaker:round production is the use of supplemental lighting.
Speaker:So that supplemental lighting comes with some perceived
Speaker:irritants because of the the close proximity of
Speaker:our farms located in the Kingsville Leamington area. Yeah,
Speaker:we've worked with communities and identified plans
Speaker:to install curtains that would mitigate those
Speaker:light being emitted. We have municipalities that are
Speaker:looking at 100% light of baby. So when you think
Speaker:about that no light can admit from any
Speaker:greenhouse structure.
Speaker:How do you accomplish that? Even in a residential home, how do
Speaker:you stop every little bit of light emitting from your farm?
Speaker:We have another municipality that is implementing a boarding rooming
Speaker:lodging housing bylaw that requires every
Speaker:owner of a long term rental greater than I think it's
Speaker:21 days, subject themselves to another registry,
Speaker:unannounced inspections that are
Speaker:redundant to existing inspections that are taking place
Speaker:and subjecting themselves to a criminal background check.
Speaker:So now you have a municipality determining licensing provisions
Speaker:based on criminality that is enforced by federal
Speaker:legislation. We have another one where
Speaker:we have farms, about 16 farms that paid for
Speaker:sewer infrastructure over
Speaker:$200,000 each person. And due to the flooding
Speaker:that occurred in 2023, they're quick to blame
Speaker:greenhouse for the excess of discharges that
Speaker:we've made into the sewer system that we paid for. And
Speaker:they're choosing to support residential development
Speaker:over agriculture and now looking to tax
Speaker:greenhouse to pay for infrastructure costs that
Speaker:they don't have the revenue to support. These
Speaker:guys are connected to a sewer system, domestic waste and
Speaker:greenhouse nutrient feed water, which we call gnf.
Speaker:And now they're bringing them back to the table and saying, well, now
Speaker:you can only discharge X amount and only during these times
Speaker:of the day, but little to
Speaker:no considerations for what do you do with excess
Speaker:now you have to install additional tanks. You have to monitor your
Speaker:quality of water. You have to restrict when you flush the
Speaker:toilets and when you discharge into the system at certain
Speaker:times of the day, when you have infrastructure where
Speaker:studies show that they failed to maintain,
Speaker:there's groundwater infiltration and it wasn't running
Speaker:at capacity at the time of the, of the torrential
Speaker:downpours that Essex county experience.
Speaker:It's just ridiculous when you look at it. They're looking to
Speaker:target agriculture because we have a
Speaker:25% exemption on property taxes
Speaker:to support agriculture. So now you have a municipality
Speaker:that you have farms that have been established there since,
Speaker:geez, I'm going to go back to the 50s, late 50s, early 60s.
Speaker:And you have a council that is
Speaker:looking to deter future investment and migrant workers
Speaker:in their community because they don't get the tax base
Speaker:without recognition of, you know, the pack houses that pay
Speaker:full industrial rate, the marketing companies
Speaker:that are huge, huge corporations in
Speaker:their community, the jobs and spin off jobs that are
Speaker:created in the community. Instead they're looking to tax
Speaker:greenhouse. So what they can offset their budget and be able
Speaker:to invest in infrastructure. Question is, is will they
Speaker:actually invest in infrastructure for greenhouse or they just
Speaker:continue to apply bylaws and development charges
Speaker:that would hinder that investment going in their community.
Speaker:It seems to me that there's a bit of a gap between
Speaker:the municipality and the greenhouse growers and
Speaker:operators. The municipalities clearly maybe not seeing a
Speaker:benefit from having these greenhouses here just from
Speaker:listening to the way that you're explaining it. So I'm
Speaker:wondering, is there more consultation that needs
Speaker:to happen between municipalities and greenhouse
Speaker:growers and, and operators within those jurisdictions?
Speaker:What if somebody, you know, wants to start up a
Speaker:greenhouse brand new in a municipality is maybe
Speaker:something that they should do is start working with the municipality and
Speaker:seeing if they could have something to offer with their greenhouse
Speaker:that might, you know, boost the municipalities like small
Speaker:services or I'm just spitballing ideas here, but it would be a
Speaker:novel concept. Novel concept establishing a task
Speaker:force or I would like to resurrect
Speaker:agricultural committee that represents
Speaker:southwestern Ontario, that's inclusive of Chatham Kent. The
Speaker:consultations on this water, this sewer
Speaker:system was done in a manner
Speaker:that supported that they were checking boxes.
Speaker:It was done in a manner that they had already
Speaker:predetermined the outcome because they ordered the meters in advance
Speaker:of the passing of the bylaw that would be specifically
Speaker:installed on greenhouses only to determine
Speaker:what they're discharging and when they're discharging and
Speaker:volumes. So when you look at that and there is no
Speaker:engagement prior to seeking input
Speaker:and you look at post passing of the bylaw,
Speaker:it indicates that they created a task
Speaker:force after the fact that excluded ogbg, that
Speaker:represents all growers across Ontario. They
Speaker:now started meeting with individual growers seeking
Speaker:input. And it's almost like they
Speaker:put the cart before the horse. It made no sense at all. Now they're
Speaker:trying to figure out how they work around this. Now, you know,
Speaker:in another municipality, we have no sewers
Speaker:and no water, but a farm
Speaker:punches a hole for a well and puts in their own
Speaker:wastewater treatment center on site, they're still
Speaker:subjected to paying the development charges of connecting
Speaker:to infrastructure that's not available to them
Speaker:in summer it exceed, you know, we're
Speaker:talking 3, $400,000 cost to connect when they
Speaker:can't connect. Yeah. We have another
Speaker:municipality with development charges
Speaker:$177,000 per acre for
Speaker:the first year for water, wastewater that will go to
Speaker:$377,000
Speaker:by year five. How do you put up
Speaker:an acre of greenhouse at those costs?
Speaker:That's before a shovel hits the ground. That's before permitting, that's before
Speaker:approvals. It's just archaic. And then we have a
Speaker:municipality going east further
Speaker:that is looking to implement stormwater taxes
Speaker:for greenhouses, impermeable surfaces,
Speaker:so that they can support, support their infrastructure needs. There's no
Speaker:sewers where these greenhouses are located, but yet they're forced to
Speaker:pay this stormwater tax. So.
Speaker:And the scary part about this, Trina, and we laugh about this because
Speaker:you can't make this up. Right? And the challenge becomes,
Speaker:you know, you continue to create these bylaws
Speaker:and these development charges when they meet for their
Speaker:municipalities meetings. There's 444
Speaker:municipalities in Ontario. They meet at Roma and
Speaker:Amo and they share these ideas. So if
Speaker:we don't push back and we don't challenge them, we threaten
Speaker:the future viability of agriculture in Ontario and in
Speaker:the municipalities we currently reside in. This sewer by
Speaker:law that they've implemented will cost my members in
Speaker:excess of 100 to
Speaker:$150,000 annually. They're
Speaker:subjected to paying additional connection charges which they would have
Speaker:paid when they originally connected, pay for these
Speaker:meters, which they can't tell us how much they are,
Speaker:pay for the installation, which they can't tell us what it is because
Speaker:it's so complicated, and pay for the monitoring.
Speaker:They have a provision in that bylaw that states any costs
Speaker:associated to implementing this Bylaw will be borne on greenhouse.
Speaker:Are you seeing the same trend happening in other provinces?
Speaker:No, they actually so part of our national organizations, they look at
Speaker:me and just shake their heads and like, are you making this up? Like
Speaker:it's comical, right? Because again,
Speaker:we've had significant growth over 5% annually
Speaker:over the last 10 years on average. So when
Speaker:you deal with that type of growth, you're going to have growing pains.
Speaker:Problem is we're a willing partner, we remain a willing
Speaker:partner. We want to find solutions. We'll walk into
Speaker:provincial government with you hand in hand looking for
Speaker:solutions. But when you take draconian approaches
Speaker:like this, all it does is tells me and tells
Speaker:our members we don't want greenhouse in our sector. We don't care
Speaker:about domestic food security or sovereignty.
Speaker:We just want revenue to support growing,
Speaker:building homes quicker and bringing in that tax base that
Speaker:will help make that community more prosperous. And
Speaker:that's, it's deplorable to think that.
Speaker:And is the same trend happening with
Speaker:traditional agriculture? Well, that's the funny part. Right.
Speaker:Agriculture is agriculture as far as I'm concerned, Gina, we're
Speaker:growing food. Only difference is we're doing it a
Speaker:lot more effectively based on yield and a smaller footprint.
Speaker:Are we using natural resources? Absolutely. We're maximizing
Speaker:inputs, minimizing outputs. We recover what we
Speaker:put in to the best of our ability to lessen that
Speaker:impact on the environment. They don't care. They just
Speaker:see it as drawing that resources that they could divert
Speaker:to taxpayers are pull up paying the full,
Speaker:full wage of or not wage, but the full
Speaker:complement of the property taxes. Looking for,
Speaker:knowing all of this, you know, if there's a new grower
Speaker:who wants to get into this space or someone new who wants to start
Speaker:up a greenhouse, what advice would you give them?
Speaker:Would it be to consult with the municipalities, you know
Speaker:it immediately right from the start or what would
Speaker:that be? Absolutely due diligence. Right. And,
Speaker:and it's kind of funny that you brought that question up because I was
Speaker:approached about a year and a half ago by a
Speaker:third party looking to establish greenhouses in
Speaker:Ontario and try to guide them through all the
Speaker:challenges, the infrastructure, etc. Right. And
Speaker:that was a year and a half ago, just last month, I get
Speaker:a call saying that it's a no go,
Speaker:but costs associated to getting infrastructure to that site
Speaker:just totally destroyed the project. Right.
Speaker:And then you look at competing jurisdictions, We've lost
Speaker:about 500 acres to Ohio and Michigan area.
Speaker:Ohio, Michigan are saying how much energy do you need?
Speaker:How much Natural gas, how much electricity do you need? You need water,
Speaker:how much you need sewers, how much? They're
Speaker:opening doors, they're welcoming that investment and they're
Speaker:ensuring that they stay there with tax concessions
Speaker:and they're willing to attract business, create
Speaker:friendly policies that support agriculture,
Speaker:that support, support businesses remaining in Canada.
Speaker:You know, I, I use this terminology a lot and I get some, some weird
Speaker:looks on it, but you can't suck and blow at the same time. We're
Speaker:talking about keeping our elbows up by Canadian support. Canadian.
Speaker:And then you have these draconian policies being implement at all
Speaker:levels of government. Don't get me wrong, it's not just municipalities
Speaker:that aim to contradict any future
Speaker:investment in greenhouse. In your
Speaker:municipalities. And by the time
Speaker:they realize that it was an oversight, will it be too
Speaker:late? Will that investment have gone elsewhere?
Speaker:Whether it be competing jurisdictions outside this province,
Speaker:in climates like Quebec, British Columbia, Alberta.
Speaker:Those are some, some other areas that are heavily vested in
Speaker:greenhouse vegetable production. I don't have a good solution
Speaker:for. Listen again. Point is,
Speaker:we can find solutions. Yes, and
Speaker:they're looking at declassifying greenhouse as agriculture
Speaker:so that we don't have that 25% exemption on property
Speaker:tax. Could you imagine that you're declassing
Speaker:agriculture? That we feed people, support the economy,
Speaker:contribute to the economy. All the people that work in Greenhouse. Over
Speaker:35,000 jobs through the full value chain is
Speaker:what is attributed to Ontario greenhouse vegetable growers.
Speaker:Richard, do you meet with like the mayors of these
Speaker:municipalities or. I did until they passed the bylaw.
Speaker:Listen, I like to take a pragmatic approach to all
Speaker:these situations. We had some relationship
Speaker:rebuilding that had to occur when I took on this job.
Speaker:I met with these mayors on a regular basis
Speaker:to discuss growth plans so that they understood what the
Speaker:projections were. We identified potential
Speaker:new nuisances that they are facing and how we collaborate to
Speaker:help. We opened up our greenhouses to
Speaker:tours to the general public to give them an
Speaker:understanding of what we're trying to do here. It's not just
Speaker:a big conglomeration of metal and
Speaker:plastic or glass and concrete. We protect the ground,
Speaker:that ground. Once we lift that greenhouse off that ground,
Speaker:that's still protected land. And we need
Speaker:organizations like Ontario Federation of Agriculture,
Speaker:Ontario Fruit and Vegetable Growers association, the
Speaker:national organizations, to recognize that greenhouse
Speaker:is agriculture. End of story.
Speaker:And we need to support one another because
Speaker:once it pivots from greenhouse
Speaker:field farming, conventional farming will also be a target
Speaker:if they're looking to recover costs. So what
Speaker:has been successful? I know There's. I know
Speaker:there's tons of challenges. They passed this bill. Sounds like a
Speaker:lot of frustrations with, you know, wanting and needing to support
Speaker:growers to expand and new growers. And, you know, obviously there's now
Speaker:all these limitations and restrictions on them, which. Which is
Speaker:frustrating. But have you had, you know, successful
Speaker:consultations or engagements with. With any
Speaker:municipalities, and what has that success resulted in or
Speaker:looks like? Absolutely. So one of our largest communities
Speaker:is the Leamington area where our office is located. That's where
Speaker:the largest volume of growers are located. When
Speaker:I came aboard, one of my. One of my main objectives was
Speaker:rebuilding relationships due to past transgressions.
Speaker:The current mayor is also the warden of Essex county, so she
Speaker:represents all the mayors in Essex County. Hilda McDonnell
Speaker:has made some very, very
Speaker:supportive comments in some of her public addresses, recognizing that
Speaker:Greenhouse is part of Leamington and that we need
Speaker:Greenhouse as well as retail, industrial,
Speaker:commercial restaurants, etc. So for her
Speaker:to recognize Greenhouse and support Greenhouse
Speaker:and look for options to help address some of
Speaker:our concerns like infrastructure, I think that was a
Speaker:positive turn of events. And I use that
Speaker:as a case study for any discussions I have with other
Speaker:mayors of these other communities, saying that
Speaker:we are where we were with Leamington five years ago,
Speaker:and if we can fast track it, because it's not like you're going to take
Speaker:out the hundreds and thousands of acres in your
Speaker:community because you don't want to support agriculture.
Speaker:Greenhouse agriculture, if we can
Speaker:learn from what we went through with Leamington will save
Speaker:a lot of headache, time, trouble and money, and we
Speaker:can work together in a concerted effort. That's all we're asking for.
Speaker:So how did you get to that point with
Speaker:the mayor? How did you rebuild that relationship? It
Speaker:takes two willing parties. We're both reticent. You know, she. She
Speaker:tested neo, she contacted some colleagues. I
Speaker:did the same. Hey, listen, it's business, right? We're not
Speaker:going to agree on everything, but, yeah, we can agree on. We'll work
Speaker:together on. We sat on, you know, different
Speaker:committees together. We had different discussions. Like I said, we have
Speaker:almost a monthly meeting where we catch up and ensure. And of
Speaker:course, it doesn't just focus on business. It focuses on
Speaker:the rumor mill, right? And what's going on in the community, as
Speaker:well as your vacations and, you know, so it's
Speaker:developing that rapport to ensure that they can have
Speaker:a trusting, willing partner that's willing to best represent
Speaker:Greenhouse while recognizing the municipality's concerns as well,
Speaker:is the Mayor. The one that makes the final decisions?
Speaker:No, but she's going to be the strongest voice to speak
Speaker:on behalf of our association and our members to
Speaker:support Greenhouse. And then you're going to have subsequent meeting
Speaker:with the CEOs and councils, individual council members.
Speaker:You know that the community that I call that
Speaker:passed the, the bylaw, the municipal passed the bylaw.
Speaker:Only three of their counselors returned like call.
Speaker:I wanted to speak to them before the deputation and
Speaker:passing of the bylaw. Four of them chose not to
Speaker:return my call. They don't believe OGBG
Speaker:has a seat at the table and that's probably the first
Speaker:oversight in trying to resolve conflict.
Speaker:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And
Speaker:just, just on a positive note about Leamington,
Speaker:you know, as someone who has always wanted to be in the greenhouse
Speaker:space and you know, dreamed about how can I design greenhouses and get
Speaker:greenhouses everywhere here in Winnipeg knowing that there
Speaker:were really none in the city. It's like if
Speaker:you really want to learn about greenhouses, everyone
Speaker:says, you know, you have to go to Amsterdam, but really you
Speaker:can go to Leamington because of how many
Speaker:greenhouses are there now and how many equipment providers and service
Speaker:providers. It's really a hub for greenhouse design
Speaker:construction. So one of the huge benefits of promoting this
Speaker:industry is attracting talent to the
Speaker:sector. And, and so I think that that's something that should also
Speaker:be communicated with other municipalities
Speaker:because, you know, I'm not, you know, I, I drove to Leamington and no
Speaker:offense to Leamington, but when I got there I was like, oh, okay. It's, you
Speaker:know, a small town, but at least they have greenhouses everywhere. You know what,
Speaker:it's, it's, it's actually shocking, right, when, when people
Speaker:actually understand the scope of, of agriculture,
Speaker:greenhouse agriculture in this area. It's mind
Speaker:boggling, right? They, they, they come down off of
Speaker:77, off the 401, the main corridor in. You see all
Speaker:these high tech greenhouses that are
Speaker:generations of work, right? And yeah,
Speaker:you know, I, I get the point that the
Speaker:community should be, you know, able to see the inside of
Speaker:these greenhouse and better understand what they're doing and how
Speaker:they're doing it. But let me ask you this. I came from a background in
Speaker:automotive. I don't know how many years
Speaker:I wondered what these plants were doing.
Speaker:Like I couldn't go in and visit them. I couldn't go and tour
Speaker:the farm or the factories and see what's going on.
Speaker:Greenhouses, open their arms, open their arms.
Speaker:Willing to provide these Tours and you have counselors
Speaker:turning their nose up during the discussion.
Speaker:And you also have the potential of spread of disease
Speaker:based on, you know, closed controlled environment agriculture
Speaker:that could spread rapidly. So we have to be very cognizant in how
Speaker:we approach it as well. Are we hiding in it? Absolutely not.
Speaker:But we do have to observe biosecurity measures and
Speaker:ensure that they are. Any tours are conducted in
Speaker:a controlled environment and I will not subject
Speaker:my members to any of that risk if
Speaker:it's simply to appease the community
Speaker:or the citizens of that municipality. I
Speaker:was happy to provide educational briefs, seminars.
Speaker:You know, we're even invest in investigating
Speaker:opportunities of a traveling greenhouse that we can put at
Speaker:fairs. Yeah, that's a great idea. Right. But again,
Speaker:comes out resources, comes at liability, it comes
Speaker:at where do you manage, who manages it and it is the technical
Speaker:experts that should be there. So it's, it's just
Speaker:ongoing. Then you go virtual and you just not get in the scope
Speaker:of, of greenhouse agriculture in
Speaker:Ontario, much less cannibal. Just to end this off here,
Speaker:I want to ask you one last question. Despite all these
Speaker:challenges, what keeps you in the greenhouse sector and
Speaker:what is your proudest moment as your involvement with your
Speaker:current association? Wow, my proudest moment? I don't
Speaker:know, I, I really.
Speaker:Yeah, you know what, it, it's, it's difficult. My mentor
Speaker:retired last year and he said that, you know, it was, it was
Speaker:never for his, himself, it was always for
Speaker:the growers, it was always for our
Speaker:members. And, and I'm, I'm almost of that same mindset
Speaker:in a lot of cases it is a thankless job. Right. If you're
Speaker:doing this for a pat on the back or for someone to say, hey,
Speaker:atta boy, I'm sorry, you're in the wrong sector.
Speaker:I really like the challenge. I really like the challenge
Speaker:that is different daily. I like the
Speaker:opportunity to implement my
Speaker:input and it's oftentimes collaborated
Speaker:with our board or individual members or staff to ensure
Speaker:that we find the best solution to represent our
Speaker:members. I think, you know, to have
Speaker:that ability to see and
Speaker:experience things that most people would never
Speaker:be able to experience. How many people have met with the Prime Minister
Speaker:or the ministers of agriculture, different ministers across the country.
Speaker:Right. Or at the provincial level and
Speaker:be able to impact and provide feedback that
Speaker:influences policy, that influences
Speaker:decisions that ultimately impact agriculture
Speaker:moving forward. Yeah, so I don't have one
Speaker:defining moment, I'll tell you this, that it's
Speaker:definitely been a roller coaster ride,
Speaker:you know, from my previous role to my current role. And
Speaker:I'll tell you that I continue to learn and
Speaker:these members, I tell you, once you, once you get,
Speaker:you know, gain that respect and trust,
Speaker:you learn so much about this sector that you would
Speaker:never read about unless you experience on farm
Speaker:or they shared it with you. And to me that's impressive,
Speaker:right? To see a multi billion dollar
Speaker:sector created in the hamlet of southwestern Ontario and
Speaker:expand to the rest of Ontario tells you
Speaker:that you know what controlled environment
Speaker:agriculture, Greenhouse is the future of agriculture
Speaker:and is where we need to continue to put our
Speaker:resources and recognize that the future is going
Speaker:to be bright. But we need to be proactive, not
Speaker:reacting. We keep playing this game of whack a
Speaker:mole, right? Something pops up, we whack it.
Speaker:We're just chasing issues. We need to be
Speaker:proactive. We know what the growth trajectory is, we know
Speaker:what we need to do to support that trajectory. The question
Speaker:now becomes, do you want to support it? And that's at
Speaker:the municipal level, provincial level and the federal level.
Speaker:Well, thank you for all of your insight. Thank you for
Speaker:your time. You have a very important job that you're doing
Speaker:to be grow the sector. So thank you for all of your work
Speaker:and all that you contribute to helping Greenhouse Growers. Appreciate
Speaker:it, Trina. I appreciate your, your zest for
Speaker:this, this sector and what you're trying to accomplish in in
Speaker:Manitoba as well. And anything we can do to support you, we're happy to
Speaker:do that. I hope you enjoyed this episode of
Speaker:Greenhouse Success Stories, hosted by Trina Semenchek. Thanks to our guests
Speaker:who make this all possible. Special thanks to our title sponsor, Arnois
Speaker:Greenhouse. To read the full show notes for each episode, which includes an episode
Speaker:summary, key takeaways and guest resources mentioned, please
Speaker:visit greenhousesuccess. Com.
