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How did Los Alamos become the site where Manhattan Project scientists changed the course of WWII...and the world??

In this episode, a historian explains how this secret city became one of America's most important military history destinations—and why you should add it to your next road trip. We'll explore what visitors can see today, the stories behind the locations, and insider travel tips for this unique New Mexico historic site.

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Imagine heading high into the isolated mountains of northern New Mexico in 1943.

The address on your mail is just a nondescript post office box in Santa Fe.

You can't tell your parents, your siblings, or your closest friends where

you are going or what you are doing.

To enter, you have to pass through a guarded security checkpoint where

a woman named Dorothy McKibbin verifies your credentials before

granting you access up the plateau.

On any official map of the United States, this place does not exist.

Just months earlier, this high desert mesa was home to a quiet outdoor boys school.

But under an eviction notice from the Secretary of War, the federal government

seized the land and transformed it almost overnight into Project Y, a

secret makeshift city of thousands of scientists, military personnel, and

families racing against Nazi Germany to harness the power of the atom.

Led by J. Robert Oppenheimer and General Leslie Groves, this hidden enclave became

the birthplace of the atomic age, forever altering the landscape of the world.

Welcome to Talk With History.

One filmmaker, one historian, leading history-inspired world

travels for the curious, the history lovers, and the explorer in us all.

I am your host, Scott, here with my, my wife and historian, Jenn.

Hello.

Today, we're taking a detour from our Route 66 centennial road trip.

While Route 66 winds through Albuquerque, we decided to steer the car north into

the mountains to visit one of the most pivotal and guarded sites in American

Los Alamos, New Mexico.

It's not your everyday Route 66 stop, but standing up on the

hill where the Manhattan Project took shape is unforgettable.

We're walking you past the original main gate checkpoint, exploring

General Groves' quarters in the 1918 ranch house infirmary, and visiting

the stone cottage where Oppenheimer lived with his wife, Kitty, and

their young children during the war.

We'll also break down how an entire secret city grew to over 10,000

residents, the critical roles played by the Women's Army Corps on the Mesa,

and the re- the relentless two-year race that led from a ranch in the hills

of New Mexico straight to the Trinity test and the end of World War II.

I'm Scott Bennie, so check your clearance badge at the gate.

We're stepping inside the secret city of Los Alamos.

All right, Jenn.

I made it through that last line of the intro.

I edited it out, but for, for those of us, for those of you who are lifetime

members of the History Road Trip or of our app, which is History or Drive,

there is a private Facebook group just for lifetime members, and every

now and then we put outtakes on there of us screwing lines up or whatever,

or Jenn yelling at me off-camera-

or me scolding her off-camera.

Um, so if you guys wanna be a part of that private Facecr- Facebook group, um, you

can become… You can do that by becoming a lifetime member of History or Drive.

That's at historyordrive.com.

That's our history travel app, and, uh, I've been doing a lot

of updates to that recently.

There's a lot of great stuff in there.

And if you travel around doing History Road Trip travels, our, our

lifetime members have shown us that they've used it on their travel.

So check it out, historyordrive.com.

But we're not here to talk about that.

We're here to talk about Los Alamos.

So Jenn, let's, let's talk about this secret city.

So we… This is a part of our R- Route 66 trip.

Yes.

And so most people know Route 66.

It's the 100 anniversary, 1926.

Uh, that's what we're celebrating.

But Santa Fe was part of that original route, and it kinda takes you up past

Albuquerque up to Santa Fe because that was kind of a popular city.

This is north of Santa Fe, about 30 miles.

Yeah.

But it's very hilly, and it's, uh, switchbacks, so when you…

It's not, it's not 30 minutes.

Like, you have to be careful when you drive up there because w-

It's probably a good 45 minutes to an hour

… we're driving into altitude, and when you're driving up into kind of a, a more

r- rural area, which it really was then.

Now it's a built-up city.

But, um, in 1937 is when they cut off Santa Fe in, uh, for, for

Route 66, and they took basically 100 miles away, and you just go

right through Albuquerque instead.

Uh, so we wanted to do that original route and always wanted

to visit Los Alamos because of its significance in American history.

Yeah.

And like Scott alluded to, uh, this was the race for the atomic bomb.

This was during World War II, and it was really the race between the

Allied forces and the Axis forces.

Uh, Germany, Germany was the first to, to understand the power

of splitting the uranium atom.

They had done it in 1938.

And they had done it, but they hadn't understood the nuclear chain

reaction that can happen, and they didn't know how to harness it.

Yeah, Albert Einstein had written that letter to America to s- telling them,

"The Germans are doing this." And because Einstein is, uh, Jewish, right, and

because he's seen the Germans do this, and he's knowing what already in 1938

what, uh, Hitler is doing with the, uh, antisemitism, uh, he's afraid of

they don't understand quite yet what they've unleashed, and so he wants to

make sure America is aware of this.

So-

So, so he, he sees the writing on the wall.

He sees the writing on the wall.

Okay.

And if you saw the movie Oppenheimer, it really is Einstein talking to

Oppenheimer, kind of letting them know the seriousness of this.

Okay.

Uh, and so that is what's happening here, is they know that Germany has this power,

but they don't know yet how to contain it, and, um, the Americans, especially

the American, um, government, starts to see the importance of scientists

who are leaving Germany, right?

They're escaping from Germany, but they understand the

power that the Germans have.

And it is, at this time, we've talked about this before,

this great race of technology.

Yeah.

Right?

America and Germany are really racing each other with who can be the

quickest to build better ships and better planes and better submarines.

And so it really is this race of technology, and so this is the,

the, the chemistry side of it.

And what's interesting is Hitler really doesn't put emphasis into this.

He doesn't see the power of this, and that is what's so great about these German

scientists, you know, um, Einstein, who do see the power of it, and they're able

to get the attention of the Americans.

And the Americans believe them and believe that, and so that's when they

get this joint operation, and w- we really talk about this in Los Alamos.

We really talk about Leslie, g- General, um, Leslie Groves-

Yep … and Robert Oppenheimer.

Like, they are really the power behind this, and the money and the people that go

into this, you can see this at Los Alamos.

And it's really great that America put the emphasis on this.

Germany put their emphasis on rockets and, uh, other technologies like that because

they didn't think… They thought they would win the war before the atomic race-

Mm

… had started.

They thought they would have the war won before this even, so they didn't

put a lot of emphasis into this.

And at the beginning, the Americans really feel like they're

neck and neck with the Germans.

Like, they're really, we're coinciding, we're racing each other.

It's in 1944 they start to realize that Germany is way behind, and they're

way ahead, and so they just keep going because they wanna make sure that they

have understood this atomic process.

So that was projects like the atomic bomb, the B-29, with how

massive that aircraft was and the extended range that it provided.

Like, that, those were kind of the big technological leaps really

of the era, along with everything else that we did during the war.

Now, you said kind of America said, "Yep, we believe you, Einstein."

Mm-hmm.

Right?

We're gonna bring all these scientists together, Oppenheimer

obviously leading that charge.

Did they essentially kind of find Los Alamos because it, we need… They were

like, "Hey, we need someone, somewhere that's out of the way, off the grid.

This is, you know- GS-14 classified

So they picked Los Alamos because of Oppenheimer.

Oh.

He had vacationed there as a kid.

He had gone to those camps.

Oh.

He had se- and he loved it there.

I didn't know that.

And he loved the isolationist of it there.

And what's really neat is a lot of Los Alamos is funded by

the University of California.

You get a lot of Berkeley people, and so you get a lot of their

laboratories that are funding this.

So it's close enough to California, and it's isolated enough that Groves

completely agrees with his idea to take this location and make it our top sec-

So-

… top secret location

… so Oppenheimer had been to the boys school, the ranch that was there.

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Oh, I didn't know that.

And

he- That's interesting

and he loved it.

He loved, he loved the area.

He loved what it provided for his, you know, for h- his soul

and how he could relax and- And,

and, and I'm glad you brought that up because, right, we focus on kind of h-

historic travel and things like that.

Mm-hmm.

It was m- more beautiful up there than I expected.

It was…

It had that very mountain town vibe to it.

It… You think Los Alamos, you think New Mexico, and you tend to

think kind of desert landscape.

Mm-hmm.

But this was, like you said, it was up at altitude, so it was cooler up there.

It was actually really nice 'cause we were smack in the, you know, the, the

end of July when we were getting up there, and it was really nice up there.

And, and it was scenic, and it was this… Again, it had this little

mountain town vibe that kind of reminded me of, like, in Southern California,

people from there, like Idyllwild or, or, or other little spots like that.

So I was kind of surprised at, at how, just kind of what it was up there.

I was pleasantly surprised.

It was really nice.

Yeah, so this was a, a ranch school opened in 1917, and the goal was providing

an Ivy League education with rugged ranching and outdoor opportunities.

Ah.

So that's kind of… I mean, you can imagine Oppenheimer has that.

He's Ivy League, right?

He's a smart guy.

Yeah.

Well, and i- if you think about it, for boys- Mm-hmm

especially in that era, there's no, right?

Y- y- technology's not really as much a thing.

It's, it's getting outside and doing stuff.

Yeah, and it ve- it very much reminded me of kind of like a Boy

Scout kind of school- Sure … kind of thing or Boy Scout camping area.

And so they had built- Cottages, some log cabins, you know, places

to eat and stuff like that, like a camp, like you would go to camp.

And so that's what they commandeered, and that's what, like you said, the

Secretary of War had sent a letter saying, "We take over your spot."

Yeah, that was really interesting to me because, you know, it's, the American

government doesn't typically do that.

Right now, espe- and they were, they'd done it a lot in the past, right?

Obviously we're talking history stuff, right?

But this is 19- the 1940s, right?

This is, this is very uncommon, but it was so important to the war effort.

And, uh, that to me, I, was just very interesting because even in

the video, we show a clip of the actual, basically like the eviction

notice Yeah … from the Secretary, from the Secretary of War, um- Yeah

the De- Department of War to this boys school.

Yeah, so in January of 1943, they send a letter.

They have the letter there on the wall, and it's one of those Too bad.

Yeah.

Like, you're not, you, you're not gonna … I, I don't know if

you're gonna be compensated what it's worth, but you have to leave.

Like, we're taking this, and it really doesn't matter.

It's for the war effort.

Now, this is 1943, so we've been at war… Actually, it's, like, the end of 1942.

Um, been at war almost a year now, so people are very much

into the war effort anyway.

And yeah, so it's very interesting.

Uh, Oppenheimer, uh, he's the leading figure in the collaboration

here, and he tells Leslie Groves that he really likes this location,

and Groves really likes it, too.

Uh, he likes the, the fact that h- the site is, uh, remote, and it has

some infrastructure already developed by the ranch school, particularly

the Fuller Lodge, which we go to.

It's now the museum.

Yeah.

And so they have buildings already there.

It's not like they have to build stuff from scrap.

There's some…

There's an infirmary there.

I think that's where Groves liked to stay.

So there were some log cabins, and it's very log cabin-y-

Yeah … when you're there.

There was some stuff there that they could commandeer, but he liked that remote

structure because then he could control.

Like you said, we talked about the gate.

You can control people getting in and out of the area.

You can protect the area.

And what's interesting is, um, the max population, uh, before the project was

about 600 people, and then by the time the project is done, they have 10,000

people living- Yeah … in the town.

Yeah.

And you have to understand, they opened the laboratory in 1943.

They have their first successful Trinity test in 1945, in about the end of 1945.

So in two years they get 10,000 people up there, and 42% of

those personnel are military.

Because you have to think, this is a really joint effort here between

the military and the civilian sector.

Yeah, so, like, the other 60%-ish are probably family

and support and all that stuff.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

The military's not bringing their family, right?

Right.

So it's all of the scientists and the physicists that are

bringing their families.

And so much so when they open the school there, and they open

a school with 140 students, 16 teachers, most of those teachers are

wives of- Yeah … the physicists.

So, and it's their children that they're teaching.

So the military brings in a lot of WACs, and we ha- this is very interesting.

They have a whole area dedicated to these women, Army Corps.

They bring in about 300 of them, and they do a lot of the logistical

work- Mm-hmm … there, right?

The typing, the memos, all these things that you see.

I mean, this is 1940s.

Everything's still done by letter and telegram and typewriter, right?

Snail mail.

And so they're typing up all the plans.

They're typing up all the programs.

What's interesting, though, when you go there, is you learn

that how much people didn't know about what each other were doing.

It very was compartmentalized- Mm

what your job was, and they made that so nobody could understand the bigger

ramifications of what's going on here.

Yeah,

and that's the kinda typical kinda military compartmentalization where

that's how they keep the, like you said, the overall project more secret-

Mm-hmm … by compartmentalizing, and only a few key folks actually know

or understand the, the big picture.

Yes, and so w- it's now run by the National Park Service.

Yep.

And, uh, and so when you go there, you can go to the National Park site.

Now, that's not anything in particular, that site.

It's just a building now.

Uh, but they give you the map to go and see the Fuller Lodge, the guest cottages.

And it's pretty walkable too.

It's pretty walkable.

Mm. Now, I will say, kinda we're talking some, some travel tips here.

When you're driving up there, there's a gas station that you can stop

at if you want before you get up, but it's a pretty well-built city.

So there's gas stations up there and grocery stores, stuff like that.

But as you're driving in, one of the things we show first on the video

is the actual, the old, the, the…

It's actually at the actual location of the outpost, the guard post that

you would have to check in before you're going into Los Alamos.

So it actually has the old-school sign, and they have pictures of the

old sign from the 1940s, and it matches exactly with the sign that's up there.

So that was, that was kinda neat.

But what it is now is actually just, like, a public restroom.

Yes.

So And I recommend stopping- Yeah … 'cause it's really good.

You've just driven those 40 minutes to get there, and you're like, "Oh, the

sign." But that's… But if you're going to the National Park, it's about three

miles away, so you're like, "Is that…"

Yeah, I would… As you're driving into Los Alamos, stop there first.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

Stop at the… You can use the restroom if you wanna use the restroom.

But you can take a picture.

There's some kinda good scenery, and a- and for those watching the

video, I'll show video clips of it.

Um, but you can stop there, take your pictures, then you can go into the city.

We actually didn't realize that.

We drove past it and came back later.

But if you're, as you're driving into the city, if you're listening to this

on your way up, go ahead and stop there, and then you can kinda just

continue on up after you've gotten out, stretched your legs, taken pictures.

So when you get to the National Park site, you are gonna do…

They have a walking tour.

It's a very easy place to park your car-

Walk around

… and walk around, and that's basically what you can do.

Now, they do offer Great tours into the actual deep locations, where

the Trinity site took place, where, uh, the different bunkers were that

people were at deeper into Los Alamos.

Those are only available certain times of the year and by lottery.

So that's not the typical tour you're going to do.

The typical tour will be these sites where the physicists lived

and where they ate- Yeah … and where they went to the movies.

You

can see Oppenheimer's house.

Yes, you can see Oppenheimer's house, which I heard is going

to be open for tours eventually, but you can go to the outside.

And if you saw the movie, uh, they depict it in the movie.

And so you can stand there.

This is where he lives with Kitty.

It's where they h- they have one child while they're there.

They raise their other child there.

And so you get to see how it's right next door to the other physicists' houses, and

it's neat because it's almost like they're trying to make it a little neighborhood-

Yeah

and have some semblance of-

Normalcy

… normalcy there.

And so I thought that was very neat.

But it's really cool to do the tour.

Go to the visitor center first.

You're gonna walk around the pond, and then the first thing

you see will be the statues.

And so we have, uh, videos from that, but there's a statue of General Leslie

Groves and a statue of Robert Oppenheimer because these are the two heads, the

two men, the two visionaries behind the entire Manhattan Project, and one

represents the military and the money.

I mean, we're gonna get into the billions of dollars here.

Yeah, back then.

And then Oppenheimer, the, the brains behind it, and how they both had to

come together, and with such vision.

understand how they could do this and the possibilities of it.

And really, when you think they do it in two years.

It's, it's pretty wild.

Now, the museum is one of the spots that we went first.

So that we went to the visitor's center at the, for the national

park, kinda got the lay of the land, did some walking around outside.

Kind of, again, a very pleasant, nice place to kinda walk around outside.

Then we got over to the museum, and the museum's not huge, but it does

a really good job of walking you through kind of this whole timeline.

'Cause if you think about it, there's a lot that happened in a

relatively short amount of time.

So it kinda shows, I think they even had some pictures of, like, the boy's

school, the ranch before, from before the Army came in and, and took over.

Um, so they walk you through that.

They show you the Secretary of War letter, kinda, you know,

evicting them essentially.

Um, and then it talks you through what life was like in Los Alamos.

It focuses a lot on that.

So there's a lot of, uh, displays talking timeline.

It shows the growth of the city, how it grew, like you said, from 600 to almost

10,000 by the end of the war effort.

Um, and this is all in two and a half years that- Wow

that they were there.

And so it does a really good job of walking you through that whole

process, and then kinda giving you insights into Oppenheimer and Groves,

and then the women that were there contributing and, and things like that.

So they didn't go deep into the lives of any of these kinda

primary characters, but, uh, it, it, it was a good little museum.

I was pretty impressed.

And that museum is not It's not run by the national park, so you'll have

to pay separate to get in there.

However, they gave it to us free because of military, so

we were able to walk around.

It was built as an infirmary for the ranch school in 1918, and it later

served as a guest cottage for visitors.

And like I said, it was General Leslie Groves' favorite

place to stay in Los Alamos.

Uh, and the museum features, uh, exhibits on the Manhattan Project,

as well as people from Los Alamos.

Uh, and if you need, wanna buy your, um, souvenirs- Yeah … that's a

good place to buy them as well.

So yeah, it's called the Los Alamos History Museum today,

the former infirmary school.

So what you can see is how they repurposed these buildings.

You can see the buildings that were available there to them, and then

how they repurposed them and used them for the Manhattan Project.

And like I said, Leslie Groves w- actually would stay there and

liked to stay there during, um, while he was visiting Los Alamos.

But you walk around, and you go to what they call Bathtub Row, and Bathtub

Row are where these h- was homes basically on a street that had bathtubs.

And they were, um, they were homes built for the ranch school, but

they adapted them for the scientists and their families, and it got

their names 'cause they're the only homes in town that had bathtubs-

Oh, interesting

for their families, right?

Because they had children and, and so they wanted to make it seem

homey for these scientists that are coming here to kind of sit together

and, and figure out this process.

So, uh, and Oppenheimer's home is at the end of Bathtub Row.

And, and it's a good size little place for what you see up there, right?

Mm-hmm.

So, you know, it kind of makes sense.

He was leading a lot of the effort, and so his, his house was, you know, a little

bit bigger than some of the others.

It looked like they were doing a little bit of work on the front

of the house when we were there.

Um, but it was interesting to me, 'cause I asked you this

before we started recording.

I was like, "So two and a half years, they're doing all this stuff." I was

like, "Is the movie relatively accurate when it comes to Oppenheimer and, like,

how promiscuous he, he was while he was there?" And you told me, like, yeah, you

know, he, uh, he was not faithful to his wife while he was there in Los Alamos.

No, he…

I mean, uh, he was one of those ecc- ecc- eccentric scientists, right?

And he had a strong sexual appetite, so, uh, yeah, uh, that is true.

If you watch the movie, that is true.

And that's one of the things they kinda In the movie and, and in real life, you know,

you're always trying to see where people's weaknesses are when it comes to giving

away secrets, especially when you're dealing with such high level clearances.

And if you have these different vices that they know that they can be used against

you, it was one of the things that made him very vulnerable, and that's why it

was so well-known, is because you had to, you had to poke the bear and make

sure, "Hey, is this gonna be an issue?

Is this gonna be a problem?

We know about this.

Is this gonna be something that we have to worry about your clearance

with?" And that's why his wife knew about it and things like that.

So it's very interesting, v- you know, human nature-

Yeah … and talking about this.

But, um, when you go to Bath, New York and you walk and you see,

uh, O- Oppenheimer's house, it's right by the Hans Bethe's house.

Yeah.

Did I say that right?

Yep.

And he's the chemist that, uh, the, the two chemists that were brought there,

McMillan and, uh, physicist Hans Bethe, they both were Nobel Prize winners, and

they lived in that house at separate times, but they were brought there

for their brains and, and part of the whole, uh- Race to build the atomic

bomb, but it's right across the street, right, of the pathway to Oppenheimer's.

Yeah, it, it, all these houses were pretty close.

Again, it's, it's very, has that kinda camp ranch feel to it.

So everything's pretty close.

It's not like they're spread out and they're typical city streets.

Now, it wasn't when, when we were there, because it's been built up,

but back then, it really wasn't that.

Yeah, the city has engulfed this.

Yeah.

So when you're there, like, there's businesses right across the

street from Oppenheimer's house.

Like, there's, like, a, a brewery- Yeah … right there.

Yeah.

You could go have a beer, right?

And there were some bigger clubhouses for the ranch that are no longer

there, and they have pictures of them, so you can kinda see where they

were in those business areas now.

But some places have been preserved, like the theater, like

the, uh, barracks for the WACs.

Those things have, have been preserved, and they could be open at different

times for you to go in and see.

And I know they're trying to revamp some of that to make it visited, um,

more visitor-friendly, but it was really cool, if you've, especially if

you've seen the movie, to kinda stand-

Yeah

in Oppenheimer's backyard.

Yeah, I, 'cause we, I was, like, trying to look in his window, but

the, the shades were all drawn.

Yeah.

But that, that was the same house, you know?

Yeah.

And, uh, and if you're, again, if you're watching the video, that's

what you're seeing right now.

Yeah, it was super neat.

And if you knew anything, you know, there are three locations that are

really synonymous with the Manhattan Project, and one of 'em is in

Tennessee, Oak Ridge, Tennessee.

So here's a, it's another, a National Park Service map.

Um- Yep,

future video that we're gonna try to do

… and then we just did Los Alamos, and then you got, uh, Hanford,

Washington, Richland, Washington.

We've made a video from there.

It has not been… It, it's in the, it's in the can.

Yeah, we haven't published it yet.

We haven't published it yet.

But these three locations is what's needed to make the atomic bomb, because

when we talk about uranium, uranium is mined, and it's very hard to find it.

You get uranium-239, but that's not what's needed for the atomic bomb.

You need uranium-235, and out, out of all the uranium that's mined, 230,

um, 238, I'm sorry, 238 is 99% of that uranium, and only 1% will be the 235.

And that's the uranium, that's the, uh, atom you need to split.

And so what's so difficult about finding that uranium is they were like, "Is there

another process we can do to get the same kinda reaction?" Well, you can turn that

uranium-238, the bigger stuff you get, into plutonium, and through a nuclear

reaction, um, you can make- y- the, the more uranium you find into plutonium.

And when you split that plutonium, you get almost the same kinda reaction you

get from splint- splitting uranium-235.

And so when they make Little Boy, Little Boy uses that uranium.

That's- That's

the… Is that the first atomic bomb?

The first atomic bomb, and that is found in, uh, Oak Ridge.

But when they make Fat Man, Fat Man is using plutonium, and that's

what they're getting from, uh, Richland, from Hanford, Washington.

And so really, it's these three locations that come together, and in Los Alamos

is where they do all the testing, where they do all the actual putting it

together- Right … and the containment, and they do the Trinity test out there.

Now, they're doing the Trinity test in July of 1945.

It's successful, and they will drop the bombs in August.

Yeah.

So they don't waste any time.

A- a- and I didn't realize that either.

I didn't realize that it was that, the timeline was that

tight from testing to usage.

Yeah, I mean, again, it was a race.

Yeah.

And so it was… I will say, uh, we will make it out to Oak Ridge eventually.

Yep.

And but being able to go to Richland and see that a- another rural location.

That's where they're gonna build the first nuclear reactors because

you need these reactors to change that uranium into plutonium.

And those are still out there today, and you can see all of that.

And again, they're bringing in all these people, and they're

putting them in homes, and they're bringing in all these scientists.

It's the same kind of feel in Los Alamos.

Uh, but I will say Los Alamos, the town, is much more built up- Yeah … uh, today.

But it was super neat to visit, be a part of the story, see the actual

locations, stand in Oppenheimer's backyard, and just celebrate, uh, America

and what we did during World War II and how we came together in this race

and actually beat the Germans to it.

As you drive back down the winding mountain road leaving Los Alamos, looking

out across the vast New Mexico landscape, it's hard not to feel the lingering

weight of what happened on this plateau.

In just over two years, a secluded ranch became the engine that

reshaped modern warfare and ushered humanity into the nuclear era.

Standing outside Oppenheimer's stone cottage or looking at the security

checkpoints where ordinary families lived extraordinary and classified

lives, you realize history isn't just made on the battlefield.

It's forged in hidden rooms, intense debates, and the moral

complexities of scientific discovery.

Taking this detour off Route 66 was a powerful reminder of how

many world-shifting stories sit just beyond the highway markers.

Next time, we point our wheels back down the Mother Road, and we continue

our trek across the American Southwest.

We'll talk to you next time.

Thank you.

This has been a Walk With History production.

Talk With History is created and hosted by me, Scott Bennie.

Episode researched by Jennifer Bennie.

Check out the show notes for links and references mentioned in this episode.

Make sure you hit that follow button in that podcast player,

and we'll talk to you next time