This client success story episode features Andrea Klunder, an award-winning podcast agency owner and creative entrepreneur.  Andrea was a regular, but casual listener of this podcast until she realized she was on the brink of burnout, and knew she needed help to turn things around. 

Her agency was growing, she had a rockstar team, but she was exhausted, overwhelmed and increasingly resentful. This is a client success story, but one with a twist, a cliff hanger and genuine nail-biting moments that most business coaches wouldn’t share. 

It’s a story of facing fears and embracing the unknown, discovering the true meaning of “mindset work”, and the value of mentorship. Andrea recounts the pitfalls of overcommitment, the strain of unfulfilling tasks, and the bold steps she took to reshape her business– decisions that, while initially painful, carved a path to a more focused and profitable business. 

This transformation depended in part on uncovering Andrea’s “zone of genius” and recognizing where her true talents lie.  This awareness and it’s connection to her experience of burnout led to a turning point in her business journey.  

If you are working way too hard in your creative services business and inching toward burnout yourself, this episode is a must-listen.  

🎙️Here are 3 key takeaways:

 **Embrace Fear for Growth**: Taking new steps in business can be daunting, but it's through such actions that we open doors to new opportunities and growth.

 **Evolving Our Identity**: Recognizing our unique abilities—our "zone of genius" enables us to release our full creative and business potential.

 **Sustainable Transformation**: Andrea's experience illustrates the value of patience and strategy in transforming a business, and the importance of cultivating a balance between operations and creative genius.

Want to know where to find Andrea and her work?

Website: https://www.thecreativeimposter.com/

Podcast: https://www.podcastenvy.com

Linked In: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andreaklunder/

I work with established solopreneurs and small business owners (coaches, consultants, creatives and professional service providers - basically personal brands) who know they are working too hard, but don’t know where to start to do things differently. 

I’ll help you Boss Up your boundaries, your offers, your pricing, and your marketing strategy and remove anything that keeps you exhausted and feeling stuck. Maybe, like Andrea, you need help uncovering your Zone of Genius work.  

As a former psychotherapist, I also make sure we build mental wellness in your business plan so that you’re not just successful on the outside, but aligned with your values, and priorities on the inside.  We don’t want you to burn out, now do we?

Want to know more? Schedule a free consultation here: https://bit.ly/calendly-free-consultation

I’d love to meet you and see how I can help. 

Not quite ready?  That’s cool.  You can keep listening to the podcast and sign up for my weekly newsletter on Linked In here: https://bit.ly/TDWE-Newsletter

H: So you know as an accomplished storyteller that every story has a beginning, a middle, and an end and this client success story is gonna be just a little bit different than the others I've recorded. But I do think we should still start with the beginning and that is, how did you first hear about me, and how did you end up coming into my world?

G: Well, because I am a podcaster and a podcasting consultant and a huge fan of podcasting as an audience member, I love listening to podcasts. Obviously through the Driven Woman Entrepreneur podcast, which I know may or may not have a new name in the near future. So, yeah, I how did I find your podcast, I don't know. Please don't ask me how I found your podcast like any show, I stumbled upon it, and was listening to it somewhat casually. You know, some not every episode maybe, but here and there and, actually, I think what actually spurred me to reach out to you about coaching because I was kind of lurking for a while as many people do.

You I don't remember I don't know if you know the details of this. So I was on a different podcast as a guest and you posted on social media. You either commented on that or you reposted the episode that I was on of the other podcast and recommended it. And I was like, oh, Diann knows who I am? And that was a super smart social media tactics for you, because it brought you further into my awareness. And then that kinda spurred me to dig a little bit more into what your coaching offerings were, and so, I mean, the rest is history. End of story.

H: I hope I do remember to do that again because that actually sounds really good, and I don't actually remember doing it. But and I really don't want this to sound too fangirly because we are gonna get into some tangled webs in a few minutes. But I was excited to see your name pop up on my consultation calendar because I was already a listener to your podcast and I thought, oh, Andrea knows me? So, if you are listening to this and you doubt that people do make genuine, meaningful connections through podcasting, dispel the thought because they absolutely do. And we found each other through podcasting, and we did some very interesting work together. But I think some of what's fun and interesting about your story, our story, is that the reasons that you hired me, and the things you thought I was going to help you with, and I did, were not exactly what you had in mind. You had some thoughts, let's just say, some opinions, some beliefs about mindset work, which is a part of what I do and it ended up being a big part of what we did together, can we unpack that?

G: Yes, absolutely. And I think one thing I kind of want to go back in time and see what I wrote on my initial forms, outreach, intake. Because the way that you started your coaching process, there was some assessments and some worksheets and kind of just trying to figure out, I think, some personality traits, some working styles, learning styles, you know, really getting into what's holding you back, what do you wanna work on. Because business coaching, entrepreneurial coaching, this can take so many different directions in so many different forms. And so you had all these different sheets, and I probably would cringe now to go back and read what I initially wrote. But I remember feeling well, the reason why I was looking for coaching at all, to begin with, was because I had gotten to a place in my business where there were clients, the revenue was growing, I had brought on team members to try to continue to grow. I was looking for ways to be more profitable.

And I hit this point where the very real feeling that I can remember is when I would wake up in the morning and think about what work I had planned for my day, the thought of opening the lid of my laptop was like the most herculean effort I could possibly imagine. It was like my laptop lid weighed 1,000 of pounds, and there was absolutely no way that I could muster the strength to begin any kind of work. Return an email, edit a podcast, reach out in a marketing sense for something, there was just there was nothing that I could do. And I wasn't sure what was happening because we had come out of, you know, string of events. I turned 40, I got diagnosed with stage 0 breast cancer. I went through a pretty major surgery, recovered from that.

Months after recovery, COVID pandemic hit. Coming out of the pandemic, and then things were shifting around, and I was tired. I was tired, depleted, fatigued, things that used to excite me and energize me, projects I loved to work on, clients I loved to work with. I was almost to that point where a client who I loved would reach out to me with a question, a thought, an idea, something they wanted to run by me, and I was resentful. I did not want to engage. I didn't wanna respond. And I was like, what is happening? What is wrong with me, why this doesn't make any kind of sense, so I was looking for coaching. I will say, because I know this is important to you too with your background, I was also seeking out therapy. So I knew that coaching was not therapy and I kind of had a sense that I probably needed both. So I was doing that simultaneously because it was that thought of, like, what is wrong with me?

Why is this happening? What is wrong with me? What is wrong me? How do I fix this? How do I fix this? And I thought, you know, with therapy, we can dig into, you know, the subconscious and the personal stuff. And then with coaching, we can be very proactive and have a to do list, a process, a system. This is what you can do, these are the programs and services that you can add to what you're already doing so that you can become more profitable, and we're gonna build something that's going to fix whatever is wrong so that you enjoy doing your business and you become more profitable and I did not have time to waste on mindset. And the reason I didn't have time to waste on mindset is because one of my many career backgrounds is I spent about a decade of my professional life in the yoga, meditation, holistic healing world, and I thought mindset was meditating, which I was already doing, and it wasn't quote, unquote helping. Affirmations, which I have always categorically hated. I don't know why, I resist affirmations so much, but I do not like them. And I thought it was kind of this, like, wishy washy, new agey kind of…

H: Woo woo.

G: Woo woo stuff, which I had spent a decade in that world. And I was like, no, no mindset. We've done enough, a decade is plenty, I don't need to do it anymore.

H: And you saw it as a waste of time, and something that was not gonna move the needle for you.

G: Correct.

H: Not to mention you already had a therapist and didn't you also buy your 1st house around that time?

G: Oh, yeah. I forgot that in the timeline. So COVID pandemic, getting out of the COVID pandemic, things shifting, and then, yes, I bought my first condo and moved so not traumatic at all.

H: And you are very characteristic of nearly all of my clients, which is to say we have limits in our bodies, but our minds are unlimited. We fall deeply, madly, and yet our bodies unfailingly remind us that we are not limitless. We need to set some boundaries. We need to set some priorities. We can't simply say yes to every good idea we have. And that feels a crushing blow for many of us that we will not pay attention to until we are laid out and burnout. And you had the cancer, you had the house, you had COVID, you had all of those things. I think it's also safe to say that as female entrepreneurs, small business owners, you and I have been culturally conditioned into the hustle culture, into thinking that we can and should be able to do everything even if we have a team. So the idea of setting and honoring boundaries, we really just pay lip service to. But for you, that turned out to be absolutely necessary and a real game changer.

G: Yeah. And I think also there's this characteristic that I know I have. It's not just that we feel or that I feel I should be able to do everything. It's that I kind of want to do everything and I remember this really annoying conversation I had many years ago with this guy that I was dating at the time, and he was, rising the ranks as like an up and coming opera singer, and he was very focused. And I said, you know, I just I don't know why I'm working so hard and I'm struggling. And, like, this was ages ago and he was like, well, you're good at a lot of things, but, you know, you're never gonna be successful because you won't just focus on one thing and I was so pissed. I was furious because I know and I think this goes back to this concept of self identity and being creative and wanting to do many things.

Because even in college, I originally started college as a vocal performance major, and I was studying to be an opera singer and that was what I had always wanted to do. Maybe not opera, but I had always wanted to be a singer. I wanted to be a professional performer and then I got there. And once you enter more of, like, a conservative or higher education setting in musical performance, they really expect you to put blinders on and only do that and focus on that. And everything is music. And if you're not in that practice room practicing all the waking hours that you have that you're not in class or sleeping or eating, you are slacking. And I liked my general education classes, not all of them, but some of them. I thought psychology was interesting, I loved English like, I couldn't I didn't want to just focus on one thing. So that kind of carries through to this idea of being a solo act in business and wanting to try all the different things and learn this skill and know how to do that and have my fingers kind of in everything because I know myself. And if I am only doing one very specialized thing, I will get bored very quickly.

H: Okay. So we have to unpack all of this all of this juicy goodness because as I said before, many of the people that hire me identify with ADHD. But what we're talking about is, like, the drama of the gifted child. So many people who were identified as gifted in childhood are now calling themselves multi passionate, multi potentialate, or not even labeling themselves, just saying, I like to do a lot of different things. And you're absolutely right, it's not like we need someone else to impose boundaries on us. We really don't want to impose them on ourselves.

Because when we have a a creative idea or someone gives us an opportunity to collaborate with them in a creative way, especially when it has impact on others that aligns with our values, there's no way we're gonna say no to it. And you didn't just dabble in yoga, you had a full on yoga business and you had multiple things that you were doing in this business and also outside of the business during our work together and trying to figure out how to make room for all of those pieces so that you wouldn't have to sacrifice any of them or give up anything that you genuinely loved, but still pull you out of burnout. Like, that's exactly the kind of nut I like to crack because…

G: Are you calling me a nut Diann?

H: Well, in the most it's a term of endearment when it comes to me because you want to do all the things. You don't want to just do one thing. You don't want to narrow yourself, niche down, limit yourself. You want to be able to give yourself creative freedom. Not because you think you should, but because it lights you up and you don't like saying no to things that light you up. However, I think one of the challenges was even though you knew you were burning out, even though you knew that you could not sustain and maintain all the things you were doing, trying to get you to even consider dialing down on any of them was like, you will tear this from my cold dead hands. So we really had to get that's why we I do the mindset work that I do, which is excavating the limiting beliefs and really helping you understand what your zone of genius is versus your zone of excellence because I was given the same feedback that you were given.

In fact, I remember when my parents were told when I was a kid, Diann's problem is not going to be finding something she's good at. Diann's problem is going to be limiting herself to one of the many things she could be good at and I thought, why the hell would I wanna do that? And for the same reason that you say because you and I both treat boredom like a life threatening condition. And the reality is some of the things that you were committed to doing, and you fully believed you needed to continue to do, were not lighting you up, were actually straining you and draining you.

G: Yeah, and this goes back to this idea of team, which you mentioned I had and I was never totally solo. Like, I always had someone working in my business as a contractor who was helping with a lot of the technical side of things, and helping me there. I've had assistance, editing assistance and things like that here and there were two parts of the production process for my clients that I know that I have done and I know I do not enjoy doing and that was writing show notes and, doing any kind of social media assets or anything like that. I knew how to do them, I had done it. And I also knew that there were some shows that I was working on who I loved or I still love the clients, but their shows were not they weren't complex enough, what we were doing for them in the editing process.

They weren't complex enough that I needed to be the one to do it. I can edit out umms and stammers and coughs and sneezes and add theme music and, like, the best of them. But tons of people can do that, millions of people probably do that at this point. And so I thought that bringing on team members, contractors, editors to take those more straightforward shows off my hands where there's no creative story decisions that need to be made or content decisions that need to be made. Doing the social media posts, writing the show notes, bringing on all those contractors, I brought on a project manager. I thought that this was the way because then I could keep all the clients, work on all the projects, but not have to do all the nitty gritty tasks.

But that was the point that I was at when we started working together. And I thought that doing that would free me up to do some more creative marketing to get back to producing my own podcast consistently, which had fallen by the wayside while I'm producing everyone else's podcast and to do some more of that community building, business building type work. And I was busier than ever project managing, hiring, onboarding, creating new systems, figuring out which software we're gonna use and doing quality assurance and quality control. Because even though I knew other people could do those things, I still had a very high standard for what I thought that should look like or how it should feel or how it should sound, and I wasn't freed up. I was just as busy as I had ever been. And so the yeah and yet I was less profitable because I didn't have the time to find the new business to justify what I was now paying contractors to do that I had previously done myself. And so it was sort of like this, well, wait a second, what's happening here?

H: It's a rather common problem, and one that I think people tend to blame themselves for because we're all being subjected to the marketing messages. Grow and scale, grow and scale, grow and scale. But where we got into the nitty gritty of exactly how you're spending your time, exactly what you're doing, it was tricky for you because as a creative who has high standards and who has a reputation for doing really quality work, the reality is you can't completely walk away from things that have to do with the quality of the output. So you're right and plus, you're creative. And when creatives start their own business, they start their own business because they don't wanna have a boss. Not necessarily because they want to be a boss. And I know that that was one of the pain points in the list of things that you just mentioned, Andrea. The onboarding and the offboarding and the hiring and the recruiting and the training and all that that boss stuff.

G: All the operation stuff.

H: Yes and that just kept taking you further and further and further away from what you really love, which is story crafting and the creative aspects. You felt really burdened by those things.

G: Yeah and that's what you mentioned a little while ago. You said zone of excellence versus zone of genius. And now that rolls off the tongue because I've heard you say it so many times. But I had never heard of I had heard of zone of genius tons of times, all the coaches, all the mindset people, all the manifestors, all the entrepreneurial coaches say zone of genius. I had never heard zone of excellence. And I think it's interesting the way that you make a decision or a distinction between zone of genius and zone of excellence because I thought zone of genius was the things that you're good at. And as you're saying, if you're good at a lot of things, then it's like, well, everything's in my zone of genius right? So then that doesn't help me narrow anything down. And this was the first time that I had heard anybody make a distinction between the things that you are good at doing. Let me see if I'm even getting this right, zone of excellence.

H: I wanna hear what you learned and then what I think is compare it to what I think I taught you.

G: Well, zone of excellence are the things that you are doing very well. It's sort of like a well oiled machine. It comes naturally to you. You're able to do it, or you've just done it so many times that now you're pro at it. People may know you for it, that sort of thing. Zone of genius is, yes, you're good at it, but it's the things that are unique to you, that you are uniquely good at, that you can't you know, editing dialogue, stripping out umms and uhs and adjusting the pauses and things like that, many people are good at that, as I mentioned. But story crafting, with other creative individuals. So I work with a lot of arts organizations and artists, music organizations, and you have a team of creatives.

Same thing, no shortage of ideas. Definitely no you don't have to give them ideas as their consultant or their coach or their producer. Your job is to hear all of the ideas, lay it all out, and then say this, this, and this. And let's connect to these and put them together into a compelling well told story that highlights everything you wanna highlight. And it shows the full breadth of everything you do, but we don't have to say all the things. And it shows rather than telling and, you know, bringing in music scoring and figuring out how we're going to take the entirety of this arts organization and put it into 4 45 minute episodes, for example. How are we gonna do that and not everybody knows how to do that. Not everybody knows how to produce and direct a compelling voice over session for a narrative style and PR sounding podcast. You know, you bring in these artists, and they're like, we want our podcast to sound like This American Life. That's always the gold standard, everyone wants their podcast to sound like This American Life.

H: They do or thinks they do.

G: Or thinks they do and I'm like, okay, cool, will you listen to the end credits for This American Life and see how many people are on that team working for that show? And now pay them all a salary in your mind and think about how much that show cost to produce because your budget is not that. So let's figure out how we can get close to that feeling that you get when you're listening to This American Life with the budget you have.

H: Okay. So you understood the assignment.

G: That being zone of genius versus zone of excellence.

H: Yes, and I think as a gifted individual who has lots and lots and lots of areas of expertise and has enjoyed every single minute of developing them has become known for them. It pays your bills. It pays your mortgage. It keeps your lights on. It allows you to pay your contractors. But just because you do it well and have developed it into a body of work, it's still not your zone of genius because your zone of genius is exactly what you just described. It is your unfair advantage. It is the thing that you do uniquely well, and you probably couldn't teach someone else to do it because it's your magic. It is your unique magic, even the way you just described it. Even though you just described it, you could not teach someone how to do it in exactly the way you do it, that is your zone of genius. And also being in your zone of genius, it's not just energy that you're putting out.

Being in the zone of genius puts energy in, it lights your brain up like a Christmas tree with dopamine and all the other feel good chemicals because it is the thing that is your gift. And most people really have a hard time figuring that out. It helps a lot to have someone who's a fan of your work and respects you like I was when I came to the table because I was attracted to your podcast because of the quality of how it sounded and the way you told stories when you were operating in your gift. Now something else we had to sort through was that, okay, so I have this zone of genius, but I'm getting paid through my zone of excellence so how do I navigate? Well, how do I, it is painful and it's scary and it was not, it was fraught with challenges and genuine difficulties. So this is a real deal, straight talking, no BS ing kinda show, so I think we need to get up in the weeds with this.

G: Yep. So one of the things that you so one of the things that you helped me with, this is a very concrete thing that you suggested that was so helpful, was you were trying to get I think you asked me if I had to let go of any of my clients, who would it be? Which ones and as you said not from my cold dead hands, I couldn't think of any. I could not come up with any clients that I could let go of. One, because I attract really awesome clients in general. Two, because either that client's personality was someone who I love to work with or because the project is one that is deeply impactful and meaningful, and I know it makes a huge difference in the world, or the project is created, or the project pays well. And I didn't have a broad scope of clients that hit all of those things.

So I could identify, well, these are the clients that are the least creative, but they pay really well and they're easy. These are the projects that I love to sink my teeth into, and they're complex and they're rich and engaging. But the amount that I am being paid for the amount of time and energy that I am putting in is not enough to pay my bills. And then there's a whole other piece of an educational program that I run with high school students that is an after school program teaching them how to podcast, and that is my heart. That is I love those students so so much. It's so meaningful to me, and it pays the worst.

Naturally, anything to do with education, tough. So you had asked me, and I said, none. I can't let go of any of these clients. There's none that I can cut, you suggested to reach out to my, like I don't wanna say favorite, but the client that represents if I could fill my roster with only this type of client and this type of project and it would pay me enough, which what client would that be? And to reach out to that client and have a 1 on 1, basically, an interview or a conversation with them and I did that. I reached out to this one particular client who is one of those really juicy creative projects, who has always believed in me, who pays well. And I said, I need to I'm struggling and I need to have a very are you open to having a very, vulnerable and honest conversation with me? Because sometimes you don't want your clients to know that you're struggling. You or I, I don't.

I want them to think, like, she's got it all taken care of. It's smooth sailing, she's got this team like, we have every confidence in her. You don't want them to start to doubt whether you're going to be able deliver on something because you're having a personal crisis of burnout right? So I reached out to her, I was like, can I have, you know, 30 minutes of your time or less? And can we just get together and talk about this and she was like, yeah, of course, I'd love to help in any way and there were very specific questions that I asked her you know? Like, what do you love the most about working with me? Why would you never wanna go to another producer? What is it that I do? How do you describe what I do to other people if you do that?

You know, these kinds of questions and she really just I mean, I was in tears in that conversation with her because she described my work in a way that I had never seen it. And the way that that was is she does not view me as a service provider, which some of my clients do, honestly. She views me as an artist in my own right and as a cocreator of the podcast, she doesn't say this is my podcast or this is my org she's producing the show on behalf of an organization, but she's really the mastermind behind it. She doesn't say this is our organization's podcast, this is my podcast, and you are providing this service. She's like, this is our podcast, we are creating this. She's like, this podcast wouldn't be anything that it is without you and not just without my super cool technical skills, but with my creativity of genius.

H: Your zone of genius work, she saw it, she validated it, she honored it, and she reflected that back to you in a way where you're like, I feel so seen and appreciated right now. What a gift and also how vulnerable of you. I was so proud of you for being willing to do that. But I don't think we've phrased it as, oh, I'm struggling and I need your help. I think the way we phrased it was, you are a perfect fit client and I wanna have a conversation with you about how I attract more clients just like you.

G: The struggling and I need your help, that was just my own internal insecurities that was not what happened.

H: Gotcha, I'm like, I don't remember telling you to tell me.

G: Diann's like, no, I would never advise that. To be clear, that is not how the email went, that was just my own insecurities.

H: A turning point for you, wasn't it? It was a turning point for you.

G: It was a huge turning point because it you know, to go back to if we go before podcasting, before yoga, like I said, I went to college for musical perform for vocal music and my whole time growing up, I was a theater kid. I did musical theater. I did church plays. I sang in church. I did you know, like, I was always in that arts, field, and I had found myself sort of drifting further and further away from that sense of being an artist and a performer and a creator, and that has always been part of my identity. And I was like, no, I am a producer and an editor, you know, which isn't it can have those creative things.

But for someone who works with artists day in and day out, who herself is a creative, who herself is an artist as well as an arts administrator and educator, for her to say, no, you are an artist. It was like, oh, yes, that's always been there this whole time and I just it was like I sort of forgot this part of my identity. And I had stepped into this identity of, no, you are a producer and a business owner and an entrepreneur. And so I had sort of overtaken that identity of artist and creator because I didn't think that that would be valued to a potential podcast production client. Like, in my current industry, I didn't think that being an artist and a creative was a sellable skill set.

H: Understood and I also think going back to mindset issues and limiting beliefs, which you were like hard pass, but you got them anyway, you're welcome. This notion that suffering artists, starving artists, nobody makes a living on their art. You need to have skills. You need to have a grown up job. Well, the thing is that I think a lot of the work that we did was will people pay for strategy. Or will they only pay for production, and then you kinda have to throw in the strategy when you and I both know strategy is the most important thing. Almost anybody can do the production work, the strategy, and the and the creative framing of the show and all that it can be, that's the most important part. But I think you weren't really sure if other people would see it that way and unfortunately there are a lot of people who are not able to see it that way. They don't recognize the full potential of what their podcast could actually be.

G: Right and that was my fear, is that, great, we've discovered this zone of genius, but is that bankable?

H: And then when you decided, okay, I've always thought, if I am struggling, I need to do more. So how can I do more and that was how we started. Okay, how do I get beyond where I am? How do I do more? It's like, well, actually, not only am I gonna, you know, slide some, mindset work into your DMs, I'm also gonna try to lead you down a path of doing less, which in your mind was, okay, do less, earn less. I am a hard worker. I have high standards. I want to excel in my craft and in my field. Doing less, you must be confused.

G: It sounds very counterintuitive and even now, you know, I don't know what the timeline is. Are we a full year out from having completed our coaching together?

H: About, just about.

G: So even now, a year later, like, this sounds I'm getting nervous when you say, like, do less. Let go of clients like, my palms are getting sweaty, and I'm like, this sounds very counterintuitive and what happened was, the choice was made for me. So while we were working together, a few things happened. And it sounds like, oh, I had this wonderful conversation with my dream client, and I got all these wonderful insights and everything just was smooth sailing from there on. I knew I was the artist I had always been meant to be.

It turns out people will pay for creative input on their podcast and done deal, everything's solved. But what actually happened is as I was making these sort of, like, very slow, very gradual, like, earth like, digging in the earth, excavating, as you said, kind of discoveries. In the meantime, I had, a few things that we did do. So one thing we worked on was changing my packages, my service packages, raising my prices, and limiting the amount of customization that I was offering to every single client. Every single client had a different package, a different mix of services, a different workflow, different you know, all the things. And so trying to bring it into, like, these are the packages, yours most closely resembles this.

So we're gonna slide it here, and your new rate is going to be this and it's like, great. You raise your rates, you make more money until some clients say, yeah, I don't wanna pay that rate. And I had, you know, sort of been shopping around or I found this other thing over here, and they can provide this for this rate and can you match that rate? No, I absolutely cannot. Okay, that is you know, and that's the tipping point over the fence. So I had, I think, 1 client leave for a cheaper service provider. One and I'm still friends with her, and I know her financial situation, and so I don't even fault her for that. One client just stopped podcasting because she's like, this is just getting too expensive and too complicated, and I'm just I'm not gonna do this. One client had a cohost that it was within a company, and they were a delight to work with.

They were paying well like, everything was great. But it was the cohost who had initiated the show and he left the company, and the CEO who was left wanted a rebrand without the cohost. Great and you and I put together a beautiful proposal, or I should say you helped me put together a beautiful proposal for how this rebrand would go, what it would cost, what it would entail, what we can do for them and he was shocked that I handed him a proposal.

H: He thought you were gonna do the whole thing for free?

G: He thought I was gonna rebrand his show for free because I was already the service provider. I'll just provide service and, you know, I'm like, this is ludicrous. But if we go back to I set that up from the beginning right? I set up that expectation of overdelivering and not having that boundary. And when I set the boundary and I was like, this is what this will cost and this is what it will entail, he just bailed on the whole podcast altogether. And I was like, so I had 3 clients in a very short span of time when I started making these changes peace out. And so the decision was sort of made for me. And I was sitting there waiting for the other shoe to drop right? The other clients to be like, yeah, we're not doing this. I thought I was gonna be destitute on the street. And, in fact, it happened so quickly that you were I was like, Diann, I'm going to run out of money.

And I'm, you know, I'm looking a couple months ahead and if I keep paying these contractors and I don't have any new business and you were like, okay so now we need short term strategies. We've been working on this long term stuff. We need short term. We need things to bring cash, you know, a quick cash infusion into the business. And you're like, who do you have in your pipeline? Who do you have waiting in the wings to work with you? And I was like, huh?

H: Pipeline?

G: Pipeline? What? No one. I have no one. There was no one who was primed, who was ready. Because why? Because I hadn't been producing my own show. I had stopped producing my contacts. I'd gotten too busy. I hadn't been doing the marketing. I'd been stuck in operations. I hadn't been building.

H: And you were more loyal to your team than to yourself?

G: Yeah. I didn't wanna even though they were contractors. And I will say, you know, we talked about, like, quality and things like that. Like, for the most part, I had some very awesome contractors that I was working with whose work I was very happy with. It just it was you know, even if somebody's good, you still have that management role that you have to take on or that you have to now hire someone else to come in and take that on. And I had to let contractors go, and it was gut wrenching. Like, it was I don't even know, it sounds terrible when somebody said this is harder for me than it is for you or this is really hard for me to say this.

H: You really well, most people that say that they're full of shit, but you really suffered. And I this was a dark night of the soul for me as your coach as well because we had been working on strategies that would kind of pull you up out of burnout, but would allow you over time to transform your business in a way that you wouldn't get back into burnout again. But when that happened, it was literally like, I just trusted your advice, and my clients are all jumping off the boat like there’s no tomorrow and it was like, oh, jeez. You know? Now everybody people hold back on raising their prices. People hold back on reformatting their packages in a way that allows them to be more profitable for a reason.

For this very reason because every one of us is scared shitless that if we change the terms and conditions, that our clients are gonna use that as an opportunity to say, well, then you can just fuck off. And it that's actually true, it can happen, and it does happen. And the fact that it happened with you at that critical juncture in our work together, like, I think we're both the same kind of person. I don't say, well, it's not my business. I mean, it's like, I mean, I was scared for you. I felt responsible. I felt like we have to figure this out together and even if we're running out of time in our coaching engagement, there's no way I'm gonna leave you stranded. It was a scary time for both of us.

G: And it was embarrassing to me too because I felt like well, I know Diane knows what she's talking about. So that is not, you know, concern. You know, I had a couple friends that were like, wait, aren't you working with this coach? Like, shouldn't this coach be helping you figure this out? Like is she really giving you the best advice? And I was like, I don't know, maybe she's not giving me. You know, it's like that questioning, like, maybe yeah. Maybe I was wrong. Maybe this isn't, you know, the right thing. But I was like, no, I know she knows what she's talking about and so if I'm doing all the things, why is this like, what is wrong with me? It goes back to that like, what am I doing wrong? What is wrong with me that this isn't working? That, like, nothing I do works. It just makes it worse and it starts to be like…

H: It's like it starts to become like a self fulfilling prophecy.

G: Yeah. And my inner child is, like, screaming, you know, like, this isn't fair. Why is this happening kinda thing. And it was it was embarrassing for me to say, I cannot continue like, I need your help, and I cannot continue to pay you for it. And that is a reflection of me fucking up as the coachee.

H: Well, okay. Let's bump the brakes here for a second time. I think when I look because I have thought a lot about this a lot. You know I'm very fond of you, and I really had to do a lot of my own work figuring out how we got to this place. And we went through it together and we continue to talk about it together. And I think the only thing I would have done differently is asked you at the very beginning about your margins. Because it was my understanding that you knew that this was work that was going to take place over time. The changes would be implemented over time, and the results would come over time. I don't promise anyone instant gratification and overnight riches, and anyone who does should be really suspect. But what I didn't know is how close to the margin you actually were so that you didn't either.

G: Yes. And that's a problem.

H: And we realized it was a problem because you didn't know it was a problem. I didn't know it was a problem until we did. And I think, you know, it's something that I'm doing a little bit differently now because the truth is, most people don't reach out for help until they've gone past some personal point of no return, and they probably need it to work more quickly than it actually can. So let's talk about what happened after that.

G: So what happened after that was you very graciously, created sort of a runway for me that was a flexible payment plan. I don't think you reduced your rate. You can correct me if I'm wrong about that because you're pretty clear on that. But I think that you just offered me some more flexible payment terms that allowed me to just, like, not have to jump ship cold turkey with no safety net.

H: I actually created a new offer for you that allowed us to continue to work together, less frequently and at a lower cost because, like I said, there was no way I was gonna abandon you at that point. And I felt really good about the work we were doing and my concern was that you might think, okay, I'm in dire straits right now. I need to drop everything and start bailing water. And we did have to make some significant changes to your team, which we should talk about now. But, my concern was that you would go into fight or flight mode, and you would stop implementing the things that we had laid the groundwork for, which I thought were really important and I was committed to seeing you through with.

G: Yeah. For sure and so, yeah, I had to let go of a lot of team. I had to some of the team that I was able to keep, I had to significantly reduce, the expectation of what their I had to kind of limit their responsibilities so that I could also limit what I was paying and get really clear on that. I had to take on a lot more of the work myself, which because the whole thing didn't even start with how can I make more money? It started with how can I get out of this feeling of burnout like, that's how the whole coaching engagement began. So what's interesting to me is that though all of that stuff was starting to feel kind of, like, crumbly, it was sort of like the foundations of what I had created was starting to crumble, I was questioning a lot of things. Somewhere in that mix, I started to have more energy. I don't know, now that I'm saying that out loud, it's sort of like, do I have more energy and more creative problem solving skills when things are falling apart versus when they're going well? This is a thing, isn't this a thing?

H: No. I don't think it was because things were falling apart. I think it is because your life and your business suddenly became a lot more spacious which gave you room to make decisions and not just tread water and put out fires.

G: Yeah. And so I just got very focused on the numbers, which I had not been. I was you know, looked at my personal, expenses. I looked at my professional expenses. I trimmed where I could, and I had raised the prices. So for the clients, other than, I think, those 3, all of the other clients stuck around and either said absolutely like, no response, no feedback, just paid the higher invoice. Or I actually had clients who said, oh, wow, I have to think about this or I have to see how this works, but I wanna say that I really respect the way that you run your business, and I respect you as a business person, not just as my service provider, or just as my editor, or just as my producer. And so I did also receive that feedback which you know, and those clients stuck.

And maybe they made, you know, an adjustment here or there to the way that we were doing things to make it work for them. And then the best client who I had had, best client, that sounds terrible. The dream client who I had had that conversation with, one of the things that we did during that conversation is I asked her, I said, if you have any ideas of other clients like you, this was something that was so key. Anyone else like you who values this type of work, who you think I would be a good fit to work with, you know, I would so love the referral. And that was of all the things that we talked about on that call, I had it written down that I needed to directly ask for a referral, and I was like, oh,

H: You're throwing up in your mouth a little.

G: I really don't wanna do this and now it's like no big deal. But at that moment, I don't know why that was so hard.

H: Just head trash and old baggage. We're constantly taking out the trash and every time you're doing something for the 1st time, it always feels like the roof is gonna fall in. Whether it's raising your rates, asking your dreamy client for a referral, it always feels like something terrible is about to happen. And then you do it and you're like, Oh, I feel like I dodged one until the next time, and then you experience that all over again. I think the takeaway here my friend, is that just because it feels scary, doesn't mean you shouldn't do it, be scared and do it.

G: Yeah. And so what happened is she actually did send me a referral. She made an introduction, and she brought me to this wonderful organization that I'm working with right now. In fact, today is editing day all day on their new show that we're getting ready to launch. We're on deadline and if it weren't for this call with you, I would still be in my pajamas with my hair up in a messy bun, like, on my laptop furiously editing away. So this was my break to communicate with humans other than being in my editing story crafting cocoon for that show. So helped find the funding for that, put it all together. It's an amazing project.

It's one of 3 that they give out per year and so the financial piece, you know, it's always a work in progress. I feel like it probably I don't know. Maybe it always will be a work in progress, but it's steadily improving. I am working very hard, but getting some of that recognition, receiving some of that positive feedback and saying like, okay, I know that this well crafted creative storytelling, it can be receive recognition and is award winning. Like, being able to say, like, okay, I'm not just a service provider, I'm an award winning podcast producer. That sounds kinda like vain like, I had somebody on LinkedIn was like, since you're low key bragging about your awards and your headline. I was like, I'm not low key bragging about it, I'm bragging about it.

H: You're like, don't doubt my headline. Clearly, I mean, the Andrea that I'm talking to today, and the Andrea of a year ago are the same person, clearly. But you now not only are receiving this recognition and these rewards, you put them on your signature on your email. They're both there and you know what else I notice is there, your office hours.

G: Yeah.

H: So you're setting that boundary that I’m actually no longer everybody’s beck and call girl, not step and fetch it, you know, running around every different direction for you. I am an award winning story crafter and for people who value the artistry as well as the skill, I'm probably the person for you, which is, I mean, leaps and bounds from where you started. And I think what we should end this conversation with, because we've really gone up the hill into the weeds and everywhere in between. It was it was a really unique and I think very special journey for both of us. But I think one of the things I think is really important to share to wrap this up is that the work took time. The identity transformation took time. It took time to implement things. It took time for you to process feedback that you were being given and feel comfortable implementing it and seeing what changes could happen as a result. It took time, and I think so many people wait until the last possible minute to ask for help then they desperately need it to work like immediately.

G: Yeah.

H: And but what you one of your biggest takeaways was that you needed time to transform the way you look at your work, the way you show up for your work, the kind of work that you do, and yourself as the artist and owner of the business. It took time.

G: Yeah. And it took time, not even like the work and the assignments that you would give me each week on our coaching sessions. Like, yes, that took time, that process, you know, it was like this is terrible, but it's like a fine wine right? It needs to age. You can't you can't just, like, pull the grapes off the vine and do some processing and put it into a bottle and drink it, and it's delicious for the most part.

H: That would be raisins. You would get raisins if you're in a hurry.

G: t's like, what are the things that age? Wine, cheese? I don't know what the best analogy is, but it is it was like all of the tactical stuff, all of the conscious things, all of the assignments, all of the worksheets, all of that stuff. And then we, you know, we had that dip and, you gave me the lifeboat to kind of row to shore. And then when I got to shore, I kinda had to, like, sit there on the beach for a while and it wasn't that I was doing nothing, but it was like, okay. Some of this stuff was just processing and deeply integrating it. And it makes sense because that's very much how I work with my clients that were doing this story crafting. It's like we record all this audio, do all these interviews.

Maybe we have 10 hours of interviews, 11 hours of interviews, and we're trying to make 2 hours of content. And I have to listen to it and, you know, write down notes, what gives me a tingly sensation, what perks my interest, where am I bored? And sit with it and then start cutting things out, cutting things out, cutting things out until we get to this very distilled place where the message becomes clear. And I'm like, well, this is not surprising that the way that I edit a story is the same way that I had to process my own story through the coaching work that we were doing. And, yes, I think that even though a lot of these things happened or these improvements or changes have happened in that year since we ended our coaching contract together, they could not have happened without the work that we did together.