In this episode of 'Dare to Be More', host Anthony Perl speaks with Joanne Sharpe, Deputy Head of Junior School – Wellbeing, and Anna Michalopoulos, Head of Counselling and Student Health, about the crucial role friendships play in girls' development throughout the Junior School years.

The episode addresses the positive impact of strong friendships on resilience, academic performance, and self-esteem, whilst also exploring challenges such as possessiveness in middle primary years, the transition when friendship groups change, and supporting girls who prefer just one or two close friends versus those who thrive with larger groups.

The conversation explores the role parents and siblings play in friendships, the importance of play dates and connections outside school, and practical tips for parents, including being a 'coach on the side', modelling positive social skills, and role-playing difficult conversations. Anna and Joanne also discuss the transition from Junior School to Senior School, where the cohort doubles in Year 7 and friendship dynamics shift significantly.

Navigating friendships in the junior school.

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Welcome to Dare to Be More the podcast

from MLC School in Burwood, Sydney.

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Today we are exploring the vital world

of friendships in the Junior School with

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Joanne Sharp, deputy Head of Junior School

for Wellbeing and Anna Opolis, head of

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Counseling and Student Health Services.

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Discover how friendships evolve from

play-based connections in the early years

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to emotionally supportive relationships

in upper primary Learn about the UR

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Strong program that gives girls a common

language for healthy friendships, how

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to put out friendship fires, and the

difference between dobbing and reporting.

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We'll explore practical strategies for

parents to support their daughters through

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the joys and challenges of friendship.

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I'm your host, Anthony Pearl.

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Let's get into today's conversation.

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Well, hello everyone and welcome to

another episode of Dare to Be More, and

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I've got Joanne and Anna with me today.

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Welcome both of you to the program.

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Joanne Sharpe: Thank you so much.

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It's lovely to be here.

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Thank you, Anthony.

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Anthony Perl: Well, I guess we

better start off by allowing you to

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introduce yourselves to the audience.

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Joanne, let's start off with you.

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Joanne Sharpe: Hello everyone.

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My name's Joanne and I am the deputy

in the junior school overseeing

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wellbeing of all the girls.

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Anthony Perl: And Anna, what about you?

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Anna Michalopoulos: So my name's

Anna Mika oiss, and I am the head

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of the Counseling and Student Health

Services, which goes across both

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senior school and junior school.

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Anthony Perl: We have a very interesting

topic today 'cause we're talking about

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friendships in the junior school and

it is a big part of girls' lives.

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You know, very early on, and it's

something about friendships that

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are so important to school life

as well, aren't they, Joanne?

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I mean, it starts early and it's

something that weaves all the way through.

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Joanne Sharpe: Absolutely.

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Anthony.

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I think whether a young child is

just starting school or they're well

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into their primary school years,

friendships certainly play a crucial

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role in their happiness, their

self-esteem, their confidence, and

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definitely their sense of belonging.

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Anthony Perl: And, uh, what

about you from your perspective?

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What is the really important stages

of friendships in the junior school?

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Anna Michalopoulos: I, I agree with

Joanna and I also think as girls

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progress through their schooling and

maturity and go into adolescence, friends

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become so important that sometimes

it even is at the forefront of like.

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It comes before family.

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So as your child becomes adolescent,

friendships become even more important.

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Anthony Perl: And they

do shift, don't they?

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You know, from a very early age, because

imagine in the junior school, if they've

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gone through, they've gone through the

kindergarten phase, and friendships are

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very different to once you start getting

into the learning phase of your life.

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Joanne Sharpe: Absolutely Anthony.

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The young students we tend to find

are more play-based friendships, so

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they, their friendships are based

on shared activities and who wants

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to play a particular game can be

more fluid, not all the time, but

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can be more fluid in terms of.

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Enjoying an activity together.

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Sometimes it's parallel play playing

alongside, but we certainly teach our

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girls about what a healthy friendship

is, what's a good friendship?

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And one of those things, of course, is

sharing common interests and also when

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conflicts happen, what to do about that.

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So they tend to be brief when they're

young, not so intense, prolonged, but

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you know, just even teaching a simple

apology and what that means and how to

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do it is important and they're moving on.

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Girls friendships tend the middle

years of primary school tend to be more

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on becoming loyal to their friends,

sticking to the same group, having

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valuing loyalty and trust and mutual

interests, and forming those close bonds.

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And then the later upper years of

primary school, their friendships

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are based on emotional support

as Anna was talking about.

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Can become more important than

family, um, and understanding each

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other and supporting each other.

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Conflicts, of course, then can feel

much more intense and last longer, but

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they're also developing those skills

to resolve them more independently.

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Anthony Perl: I imagine that is an

important aspect, trying to resolve those

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things because as much as we would like

it not to happen, it does happen, right?

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That there's friendships change on

a dime for any number of different

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reasons, particularly as the girls

are growing and going through

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changes, uh, you know, themselves.

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Joanne Sharpe: Yes, I think we certainly

recognize that in a girl's school,

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which is from pre-K to year 12, that's

potentially 14 years with the same cohort.

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We do have students coming into

and out of the cohort, but there's

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generally that core cohort.

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And so things change and they grow

and their interests change and

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their friendship groups change.

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And that can be a really tough

time sometimes, but it's also

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a very normal thing to happen.

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And I think we use our.

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Program called You are

Strong to Teach Girls What?

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A healthy friendship.

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They have a friend ome of what's

healthy and an unhealthy friendship

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and where your friendship sits on that.

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Because we want our girls, and I'm

sure parents do want their girls

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to have healthy friendships and

friendships that nurture them and

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bring them positivity and good.

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Relationships.

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And we also teach about how to resolve

those conflicts when they happen.

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So we, one of the US strong approaches

is calling it a friendship fire.

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So when things are just not happening

well between the girls, then there's

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a little fire there and the idea is to

put the fire out, not grow the fire.

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So we talk about what thick sorts

of things grow the fire, what sorts

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of things put out the fire and

the idea of talking things out.

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And the beauty of using a program

such as you are strong is it's.

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Really gives a common language to the

girls and a common process to follow.

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So if I'm approaching my friend

and I say, when I'd like to talk

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it out, can we find some time?

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She will know exactly what I mean and

what I'm trying to achieve, rather than

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just saying, can I talk to you and.

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Um, she's not really sure what that means.

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So it gives, uh, really structures

around processes and languages.

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And then we talk about

mean on purpose behavior.

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So there is a behavior that is

deliberately mean that happens.

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We certainly recognize that the

girls, you know, make mistakes in what

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they do, um, and that we learn and

fall forward and move on from that.

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But we do have a structure around in

the US strong program of what to do

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when there's mean on purpose behavior.

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And that includes reporting

the behavior, not dobbing.

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We talk about the difference

between Dobbing to get someone

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into trouble and reporting to

receive help to resolve an issue.

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So there's definitely structures that age

and age appropriate within that you are

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strong program that we utilize to support

the girls to move through identifying

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healthy friendships and maintaining

good friendships, but also what to do

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when things don't go right all the time.

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Anna Michalopoulos: I love that we also

then educate the parents with the same

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language and the same program so that

when the girls come home, they're using

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the same language, the language that the

parents then understand what's going on.

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So I think parent education around

those programs is part of raising

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help, supporting the girls at.

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Anthony Perl: And when they come

to you, Anna, asking for some

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support, as I imagine they do when

things don't go according to plan.

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Does having that structure in place help?

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In the way that they can communicate

what's going on with you and what

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you can do to put things in place.

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Anna Michalopoulos: So with junior

school, parents would be involved first

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'cause we would want them to provide

consent for us to see their child.

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So again, using the same language

and using some of the strategies

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from the UR Strong program.

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And then if the.

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The friendship issues continue to

be impacting the girls or then other

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students, parents involved, then we

would escalate appropriately and use

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the school's processes around that.

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But counseling is a safe space

to talk about those things.

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Anthony Perl: And we've talked about

some of the negatives, Joanne, but the

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positives of friendships are huge, right?

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It's a massive support

network for the girls.

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It's a way of providing entertainment

and joy in what otherwise can

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be a stressful environment.

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Joanne Sharpe: Absolutely.

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And certainly research shows that

children with strong friendships

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tend to be more resilient.

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They perform better academically

and they have higher self-esteem.

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So the impact of positive friendships

and those healthy friendships is

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really important for each child.

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Anthony Perl: How much of an

influence is cultural differences

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that play in friendship circles

and groups and influences there,

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particularly in the junior school?

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Are those boundaries pretty

much broken down or are they, do

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they become obstacles at times?

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Joanne Sharpe: One thing

we try to teach here.

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Across the school, but in the junior

school is about our diversity.

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So we have diversity in many

ways, not just culturally,

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but in many different ways.

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And that with that diversity becomes

a rich tapestry of people and

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experiences and personalities that.

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That enrich our school

environment and our community.

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And so we aim to, to talk about that

diversity and what that looks like

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and what it means, and that we become

inclusive as a result of that growing

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awareness of all sorts of different

diversities, cultural being one of

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them, and that we learn about what.

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Each other brings and what our strengths

are and the beauty of all of those.

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I mean, one of the examples I always use

is around food and how fortunate we are

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in Australia to have such a wonderful

array of cultural foods on offer and how

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fortunate that gives us a rich idea of

enjoyment of meals together, but also

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insight into the culture of that food.

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Anthony Perl: I imagine there's

a bit of fun in looking in what's

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in all the lunchboxes each day,

because there would be a huge

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variety of things, wouldn't there?

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Joanne Sharpe: Yes, it is.

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And talking to the girls

and asking questions about,

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oh, you know who made that?

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And sometimes it's the grandparent,

sometimes it's a mum or dad and talking

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about what's their favorite food and

what does mum or dad or grandma or

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grandpa make that, that they really

enjoy about their, their cultural

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background is really quite a delight to

go round and do at morning tea lunchtime.

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Anthony Perl: How much do you encourage

the girls to diversify and spread

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their friendships so that it's not

just a very small group and that it

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does become more inclusive and broader?

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Joanne Sharpe: So I think this varies

because some girls and children naturally

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just want one or two close friends

and others to have many, many friends.

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I think the important thing is what suits

each child, but also keeping in mind that.

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We encourage them to always be respectful

to each other regardless of whether that's

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one of your very close friends or not.

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And to have that idea of we use

it comes from you are strong

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as well, is a horseshoe shape.

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So when you're sitting in

a horseshoe, there's always

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open ends for others to join.

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Um, rather than a sitting in

a closed circle where someone

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comes along and they think, oh,

I don't really know where to sit.

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I just will walk away.

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So each child is different and what

suits them in terms of what their

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friendships look like is different.

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But we certainly encourage

that inclusivity.

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And if someone comes up and

says, can I play with you?

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Then that's okay.

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And welcoming them into the group

is really a really nice thing to do.

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Anthony Perl: Anna, how challenging

is it when you see someone in Babs,

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they only do have one or two friends

and something goes south with one

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of those friendships that has a much

bigger impact than if you had 10 or 12?

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Anna Michalopoulos: Absolutely Anthony.

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I think it's really, like Joe said,

it is up to the individual child

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and um, what their preference is.

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I guess it becomes a challenge when

there's only one or two friendships

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or close friendships and then that

relationship breaks down and then

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they're quite lonely and isolated.

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So that is something that we

possibly would need to deal with.

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The other challenge, I think,

and Joe mentioned it before, is.

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In the middle part of junior school

when they're looking for loyalties.

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Within their friendships is that

sometimes they can become quite

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possessive of their friends and

who they can and can't talk to.

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So that's another common theme we've

seen come through in the junior school.

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We look at different strategies.

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We encourage girls to connect with

friendships outside of school,

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which includes co-curricular.

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We think that's really important, whether

it's a art and craft club or sport.

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Um, and also shared interests.

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Anthony Perl: Yeah, I'd imagine

that's an important aspect, isn't it?

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That encouraging friendships that

go beyond the school boundaries

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because your life is not just

always in school, and it's not only

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ever going to be in school, is it?

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Joanne Sharpe: That's right Anthony.

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It's life is about having lots of

different experiences and we have

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a great number of co-curricular

and supporting activities on offer

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here, which students can partake in.

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And as Anna was mentioning, one of

the beauties of that is it actually

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gives you opportunities to meet.

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Friends who have a shared and common

interest, it gives us something to

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talk about, you know, how did you

play on the game on the weekend?

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Or what are you going to the team

that you're playing this week?

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Or what are you drawing?

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Or, what's the dance

that you have to learn?

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And practicing the dance

with each other at school.

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But I think the most important thing is

that when it, something might go wrong

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with friendships or just your friends away

that day, that they'll have other people

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to go and seek out and feel comfortable

actually approaching them and joining in.

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Anna Michalopoulos: I, I was just gonna

say that also, I guess part of what

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we do in counseling is looking at some

of the strategies or the confidence

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to approach another girl or another

group if their friendship group has

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broken down or that friend is away that

day and then they feel quite lonely.

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So it's talking with the girls about

giving them those strategies to feel

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confident to approach other girls and

start having those new connections.

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Anthony Perl: Now, tell me

about the classroom environment

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with friendships as well.

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Is it a good thing to be

sitting with your friends?

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Do the teachers actively try and separate

the girls so that it's more focused?

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How much of a role does

friendships play in the classroom?

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Joanne Sharpe: I think friendships

can have a really positive effect in

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the classroom when you are working

with people that you feel comfortable

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with and feel like you can have a

voice and speak up, but then also

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sometimes that can be very distracting.

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What we focus more on is what?

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Who is a good learning buddy or who is.

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People that you sit near or that

you work with, that enable you

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to do your best in your learning.

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So it's not about playtime and the

friendships from that point of view, but

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it is about focusing on what you're doing

and enjoying your learning with others.

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And that might be that it's a

learning friend, not a social

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friend, and that's okay.

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Anthony Perl: How much of an influence

do parents and siblings for that

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matter have in the friendships for

some of the girls in dictating where

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they might go with their friendships

or who they should be speaking to?

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Is that, do you find

that plays an influence?

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Joanne Sharpe: I do find that if.

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Parents are friends with other parents.

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The children can be friends at

school, probably more so when

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they're younger than older.

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And then the flip side of that is

when girls make friends, the parents

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then encourage play dates and

enable them to explore those friends

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ships outside of the school day.

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And it could be after

the netball game that.

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You might go back to each other's

house for a play date, or it could

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be an after school thing or it could

be meeting up for some other reason.

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Parents can have a, have an influence

on the amount of time and the

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nurturing of those friendships.

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Particularly I think if, uh, a student

is struggling, then enc in a friendship,

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then encouraging those other friendships

that wider circle parents can have

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a really big part to play in that.

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Anthony Perl: And I want to ask you as

well about the difference that you see

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in friendships as they just come into

starting junior school to where they're

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getting ready to go into high school.

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Anna Michalopoulos: Look, in terms of the

girls coming from like a junior school

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setting to high school, we find that.

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There are significant challenges

for girls in that year seven

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cohort because the cohort doubles.

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So sometimes there's this huge shift

in dynamics because there's 80 extra

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girls joining already existing groups.

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So there's lots of change in year seven as

well as going into high school and having

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potentially 12 subjects, 12 teachers.

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So that's quite a.

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A hard year, uh, for girls.

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We also find that friendships in year

7, 8, 9 can be quite challenging.

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Lots of changes.

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Um, and then once the girls get

into the years 10, 11, and 12, we

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find that the friendship challenges.

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Kind of they, the issues kind of subside.

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They become less, and there's

more focus on independent study

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learning in the senior years.

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I also just wanna throw out there the

idea that we're still trying to work

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out what the effects of COVID were and

at different stages of development,

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what, what impact that may have on

how to become a friend, how to be a

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good friend, how to keep a friend.

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When we spent.

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When a lot of the girls spend

a lot of time at home at

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certain parts of the COVID.

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So I think that's still something

that we are, we are gonna see, you

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know, in a few more years time.

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Anthony Perl: Just to wrap up some

of this discussion, Joan, I wanted

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to ask you as well about some of the

tips that you might be able to give to

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parents in particular who are listening

into this and you know, how do they

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go about encouraging their girls to.

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To make more of friendships,

to encourage them to have

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friends, to do the right thing.

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What is it that they need to

do to help encourage that?

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Joanne Sharpe: I think to be really

positive about school and about friends,

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and not everything's gonna go well all

the time, but your friend is really nice.

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You've had a really good friendship.

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She's, and just to.

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Be that coach on the side.

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I wrote an a newsletter article

about that a couple of weeks ago.

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That idea of being a coach, parents

coaching their children through problems

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and issues, and they're probably not just

even in friendship, but even in learning.

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So being that coach on the side,

asking questions, being curious.

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Acknowledging that sometimes

this is really hard.

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You know, friendships can be hard

as all relationships can be even

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within the family, but working

through it is really important.

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Letting people know how you are feeling

is really important, not just sweeping

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it under the carpet, and sometimes that

might need the parent to actually role

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model with their daughter how to talk

about it, what to say, how to look or

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look at the person or how your voice.

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Tone might be all those sorts of things.

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How to set up a time to

talk and talk it through.

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I think modeling positive social skills

themselves, parents, the children

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will watch what their parents do.

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So that's a really important

starting place is just to be a really

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positive role model themselves.

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And even within the family.

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How do you handle conflict?

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How do you handle those arguments?

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I mean, siblings or.

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You know, typically we'll have arguments

and work through things, and so using that

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as an example is often really good too.

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Like, okay with, you know, you

have this problem with your

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brother or sister, you were able

to, how did you work that through?

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Well, you know, it's the same thing

that you can do with your friends.

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So those things are really

easy to do on a daily basis.

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Anthony Perl: Some fantastic tips there.

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And just to wrap things up, as we

are doing in all of these episodes,

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is asking in reference to dare to

be more, what does that mean in

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terms of friendships, do you think?

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And maybe I'll throw that at you, Anna.

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First

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Anna Michalopoulos: I'm gonna say dare

to be brave, dare to be courageous.

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Dare to put yourself out there in

order to make those friendships

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that may change, um, or may.

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Take you through to year

12 and life beyond School.

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Anthony Perl: And what

about for you, Joanne?

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Joanne Sharpe: I think it's

dare to make more friends.

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I don't think you can ever have

too many friends, and they might

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be different types of friends.

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They're not all going to be your close

friends, but having different types.

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It could be the bus friend and the netball

friend, and the swimming friend, and the

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dance friend and the learning friend.

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So having different friends and

recognizing that they have different.

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They're different types of friendships

and that's okay, but they're all friends

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and they're people that are there that you

can rely on or get support from if needed.

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And I just think dare to be kind.

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I think, you know, if other people you

notice, girls notice other girls who are

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without friends or who are looking alone

or who someone's not being nice to or

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asked to come and join and sit with them,

then be kind and do something about it.

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Anthony Perl: Wonderful.

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Thank you so much, both of you

for being a part of the program

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and to all those people out out

there listening, dare to be more

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Anna Michalopoulos: and

dare to be better friends.

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Joanne Sharpe: Thank you.

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Thank you.

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Anthony Perl: Thank you for

joining us on Dare To Be More.

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If you enjoyed this episode, please

subscribe wherever you get your

386

podcast so you never miss an episode.

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Your likes and comments also

help more families discover

388

these valuable conversations.

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For more information about MLC School

and their approach to girls education,

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visit their website@mc.nsw.edu.au.

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Check out the show notes

for more information.

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The Dare To Be More Podcast is

produced by podcast Done for You.

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I'm your host, Anthony Pearl,

and we invite you to join us next

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time as we continue to explore

what it means to dare to be more.