"It's important to look at our environment." - Morénike Giwa Onaiwu

Oswin, Morenike, Kassiane and Renae return to explore the neurodiversity movement, from autistic “superpowers” and ADHD overlaps to the real challenges of access, sensory processing, and energy management. Learn how strength-based approaches, inclusive frameworks, and ethical perspectives can reshape how we understand and support neurodiverse lives.

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Welcome to Herding Cats and other stories from the genesis of the neurodiversity movement

with hosts Oslyn, Marenike, Costiana, and Renee.

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Hi everyone, we're Foundations for the Bridget Mounds.

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I'm Ozben Latimer.

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the executive director of FDN.

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I'm Marenick Giegel-O'Nawu.

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I'm a board member.

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I do research and advocacy and all that jazz.

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I certainly have a uh type.

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Hi, I'm Renee Martin.

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I've managed to miss all the rest of these, and I believe my official title is Outreach

Director.

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superpowers kind of that may be translated or that may be you uh

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back the autistic but they're the worst super powers?

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They're not really super powers, okay?

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It's just funny to say they are.

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Can we also, while we're talking, can we like jump into the people who also say that, well

if we were in a world designed by autistic people we would not be disabled and I'm like no

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no honey yes we still would because like nobody would eat and the house, your rat.

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And like, that's not, that's not going to fix like, okay, so the fluorescent lights would

be gone.

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Hallelujah.

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And 100 % of things would be able to be done online.

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Great.

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Like that is not going to mean anybody is going to be cooking and the bills are going to

get paid.

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does not.

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Yeah, all the utilities will be disconnected.

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Yeah uh

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It's autistic people because like conflicting access needs hello.

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That's true.

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That's true, but like I just, sit there every time I hear people going, well, social model

of disability.

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I'm like, that's not what that means.

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trying to understand what words they're reading and how they're reading it because I'm

like that's not what we're saying like they're

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using, they're conflating the strong social model, you know, as the social model instead

of being a model, you know, because I think it's quite clear that we know that, you know,

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it is a disability, you know what I mean?

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There are, um you know, there are advantages, there are disadvantages, there are

strengths, there are weaknesses, you know, that's just the way that it is like any other

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disability.

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But I think that people

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It's important to look at our environment, know, like we were talking about in the other

podcasts, you know, about the importance of universal design and, you know, accessibility.

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All of those things are great, but that doesn't change, that addresses some of an issue.

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doesn't change the reality.

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Mm-hmm.

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Okay, so like that I don't get dizzy no matter how

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I try is never going to be useful in any circumstance.

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And that is my so-called superpower.

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I I would love to be closer to your side of that so I could go on the spinny things

because they do look like fun, but then I get on them and then they're not fun.

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just like not get dizzy standing up.

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oh

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Okay, so that's my big flex is I don't get Disney standing or doing anything else.

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We don't have super power.

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Also, that is my, when people want to call us differently abled, that is my different

ability.

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I don't get dizzy.

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Because I am differently abled.

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uh

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But also I am disabled so just accept it.

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Right but if there's a flashy light within 300 yards you're having a seat like you're

still disabled.

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Fine it's not a dirty word I know a lot.

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Is not one of them.

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Right.

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It'd be nice if people would just just acknowledge that.

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I kind of see.

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are many words in

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does not make the list.

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you

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It feels like we're having the same conversations that we had over a decade.

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you go.

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uh

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we are.

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You know, we actually are.

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Literally we are.

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Hey, here.

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semi-new one but it's related to aspie supremacy body hd what

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Please, please, please go for like a fuller there.

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All right, so I'm.

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I know, upset people maybe, yeah that's fine.

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I can live with that.

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That HD is for the three people listening.

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who don't know is the.

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where people have ADHD and are autistic at the same time, which, okay, same.

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A lot of people have ADHD.

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and our artistic at the same time.

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That's good for Oswin.

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And like, okay, at first I actually was like, right, a label for that neuro-type is like,

I guess.

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You do you I'm not going to use it but go off.

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There's like a lot going on where people are acting like it's a very specific neuro type.

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That's the thing.

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And this course is very much overlapping with Raspi's premise.

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And I just like, I am not getting in your time.

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Maybe I'm not going camping with you.

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I'm going camping with other people.

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I don't understand.

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I don't know, maybe I'm just old and don't understand.

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It's not that you're, it's not, you're right.

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And so I think the problem is that uh people are so quick to want to, I don't think we've

spent enough time looking at what has come before us in general, in anything, in social

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movements and health and whatever, in fashion, because I'm gonna just be honest, because,

know, my experience as someone who has ADHD and, you know, autism, my experience is that

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of the quote unquote, odd-HD.

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um And so,

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I kind of inflated a lot of the things that they're talking about.

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Well, yeah, of course, of course, of course.

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But then, you know, it's interesting when I look at my son, who is the one autistic person

in the house who does not have ADHD, there is a difference, but it's the overlap.

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You know, it's kind of like we talk about intersectionality.

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It doesn't mean we need to have a million different slivers of things.

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Like it's a spectrum.

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There's, you know what I mean?

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Like, I feel like people are, you know, so, you know, things coexist.

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You know, like what they're doing is uh the...

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the autistic version, the flip side of the profound autism where let's take everything

that, you know, let's take, you know, a person who is, you know, doesn't speak, you know,

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maybe has higher support needs, maybe primarily non-speaking or an AAC user and or has

intellectual disability and or this and or that and let's make this as carve out this

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category.

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That's what they're doing when these things can exist together.

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These things can exist apart.

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They can exist with other pieces there.

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And that's what I think that people aren't getting.

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And I think that it's just, it's a waste

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And I'm it makes people feel better to understand or connect or whatever with other

people.

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But where is it getting us as a community?

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What's the practical application of it?

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but I...

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think about with it is that I think the misunderstanding what neurotype means.

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think they're misunderstanding what neurotype means because everyone's neurotype is

individual because it's not just like your innate things, but like what you've experienced

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in your culture and in your community and society you live in and all these things.

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Creates your neurotype, which is why some people have innate neurotypes that develop over

time that are

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Divergent from the norm and then there are other people that over time grow to have a

different neuro type than the norm because of the experiences that they've had so like

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acting like Audi HD is a specific neuro type common misunderstands what a neuro type is

altogether and Doesn't really even tell you a whole lot about that person's support needs

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it goes back to high-end low functioning it goes back to

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these delineations because people want to have a different way of having their things

addressed than what doesn't work for any of us.

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For me, I have been known to use the ADHD shorthand because for me it was just an attempt

to be a shorthand to not have to everything out.

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But I think a lot of people are misunderstanding, to me it's like a Venn diagram that's

failed.

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People are seeing the autism and the ADHD and then the overlap and they're only seeing

that little middle section and they're not seeing that the Venn diagram has lots of

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circles.

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And they're only seeing that tiny little sliver and they're calling themselves that and

they're not seeing all of the overlapping pieces of that diagram and thinking that being

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in that little thing, you know, connects them to just who's in that and they're missing

all the rest of the important umbrella and circle.

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That makes sense because when it first came out, it just seemed like a really quick

shorthand for the two.

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But then over time, what happened, I'm like, this is confusing to me because one, some of

the things that are on the ADHD side that you're talking about, I know are an autistic

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thing for me.

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It's a presentation of a different synthesis.

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One of the things that is confusing.

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And it's like, I don't know why you're subdividing things this way and not like, and I

thought this was like a really big like, oh, now you can see you're part of this bigger

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hole and not this little sliver.

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So that makes a lot more sense.

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Thanks Renee.

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Right.

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Yeah, I think that there's a tendency themselves in the Venn diagram, but we need to

remind people, you know, and that, I know plenty of people who are also IDDD, who are also

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ADHD and autistic, their Venn diagram is overlapping and you need to remember that they

count just as much for the, it's not just the people that you want to put in there,

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everybody who holds in the ADHD's bit, or the label is meaningless.

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Like you can't do that.

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Just like neurodiverge.

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my problem.

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I think that honestly, every now and then can to that because she wasn't here for the

other ones.

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This is a different perspective that I think is important.

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This is why I like having our talk in life.

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Is that why neurodivergent have become what it has become?

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Is because they're trying to the Venn diagrams that they see into neurodivergent and not

everything else?

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think it's possibly a combination of that.

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think it's okay, problematic white person moment for a second here.

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Since the vast majority of diagnosed and now grown up people were white, we have a

tendency as white people to need to be special for something.

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And so we're a lot of times appropriate labels that might not have been what they were

intended to be and then make them smaller so that we can be a little bit more special than

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we naturally are.

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my god.

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That's a very, yeah, I mean, it's, I love how you did that because it's like, you're,

you're saying it in a way that's just, you know, like, very, uh but I think, but also it's

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such an autistic way to say it because it's kind of like, look, Hey, I'm going to explain

what I think the rationale behind it is.

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It's, know, because people get in their fleece and get all emotional and get upset.

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it's kind of like, yeah.

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And you're just explaining this is not, this is not, it's not what the qualifier is.

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It's just, this is what people are trying to do.

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It's like small talk.

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I explained to my daughter when she just picks up the phone and I'm like, hey, you know,

people, you need to say hi or hello or something like that.

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She's like, but why?

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They called me.

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And so I'm answering so they know I'm there.

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I was like, I know that's the case, but if you don't acknowledge them in some kind of way,

they think it's rude.

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So even though they called you, so, and you answered, which is what they wanted, they

expect some kind of vocalization.

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So, you know, that's the purpose of it.

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And so this is the reason, whatever the thing is, it's the reason is trying to find

connection, understanding, know, term naming things.

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It's about people will go to a land that has a name and name it whatever they want to name

it.

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Or they'll write an executive order naming something that's already named.

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It's kind of like the whole, you know, phenomenon.

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uh And as the world feels like it's getting, you know, brown or queer or black or more

diversified, you know, I can see people that are voting against their own best interests

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doing what it takes to make themselves feel special.

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And it's going take required, it's going to take decolonizing your own brain to realize

that maybe you shouldn't be doing that when you've had a brown queer person tell you that

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that is not what that means.

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m

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feel like maybe I need to just start doing that.

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I need to do a video of that in like December.

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January.

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haven't seen this, January when I haven't seen the sun.

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like months.

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And fake ass.

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Those of you who are listening, are unaware, number one, I think I'm funny.

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Number two, I am biracial Asian and I uh get past his wife approximately four months out

of the year and the other eight people aren't.

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my shirt.

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January's the month.

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There you go.

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What I was thinking about was, okay, so this also then explains why neurodiversity

affirming therapy changed into what has become instead of what Joel intended it to be.

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Because he was saying he intended it be a trauma-informed perspective, similar to how

queer therapy is done, recognizing the trauma that occurs.

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But has now been co-opted by other parts of

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therapy practices and so they're still trying to do the same normative stuff but in a more

affirming strength persuade honor tells people that your strengths are enough to hold you

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for the rest of your life, which is not true.

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That's the combination of not true and completely useless

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was that we break down.

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That's just gonna happen when you live in a world that expects something different of your

brain and body than it's capable of.

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Okay, how is strength space not secretly, not sneakily?

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are, know, in order for it to be a strength, have to be apologizing something that you're

ignoring.

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Right.

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mean, like, yeah, you're saying the po- it's like a compliment sandwich.

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You compliment Santa, because they're so confusing with both those.

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This information that I thought was just like, okay, you're giving me perspective.

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Did you like it or not?

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Did you like it or not?

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Help me out.

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I don't know.

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If you didn't like it, you can tell me what you didn't like about it so I can explain to

you.

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Oh, you're wrong.

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They care as I.

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Usually when people are doing that, it's because they're trying to put white-centric

social norms onto me.

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And I'm like, oh, no, we're not doing that.

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Because usually if I'm in the room, you're asking for somebody that's disrupting the room

that you're in, I don't end up in rooms by mistake.

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That's what invites me in just because I like play the part.

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Have I ever done that?

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oh Sorry, now we're talking about compliment sandwiches.

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That's my bad.

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But compliments never just always come when somebody is trying to get you to change your

social norms.

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They're like so manipulative.

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They are.

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Why?

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They are.

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And like, feel like strengths based, the pathology paradigm in a similar way.

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okay, so this was good, but you still need to fix and make it more like.

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I like her hair.

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And honestly, I think like strength space, art therapy, art talk therapy, or play therapy,

like, or anything that's going to be somatic, the strength space can be really good to

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help people like get past like some really ingrained self beliefs.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, like I'm not saying it's necessarily.

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I'm just saying that it.

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is not coming from.

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It's still pathologizing.

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It's just trying to help people see outside of just the negative pathology.

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They can see the positive pathology and like, okay.

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And now that we've gotten there, what's the next step?

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Cause now we've got to get away from the pathology.

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Well, it almost makes me think that there needs to be like an Alfie Cohen of, of autism

type book read, you know, where he's like, you can't praise your kids and you can't, you

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gotta, you know, do you love them no matter what, because if you're overly praising your

kids, if you're overly rewarding your kids, then you're just, then people come to expect

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that, you know, and if they don't get it, then they think they failed, right?

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That's how string space feels too.

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So maybe we just need the neutral, the, know.

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next time.

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Yes?

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Because you're at the intention, you just like the intention versus impact.

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You mean like a drum?

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m

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Yeah, it's actually like our.

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Which what I don't think we've talked about at all in the in this podcast.

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well, do we get to pivot to that?

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That's awesome.

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Yes, we're actually going to talk about what we're here for.

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stunning, Susan.

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And we didn't even plan that.

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was like, wow.

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uh

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I think that a lot of people think that the framework is meant to just be for like

therapy, it's not.

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People recognize like what our traits are and then what we might need help with based off

of the environment that we're in.

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And since all places that we are are an environment, it changes no matter what.

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Like it's always changing.

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So we have to have like

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this map of like what your brain is doing to be able to respond to the environment.

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And so that's what the framework does.

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It subdivides it.

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It subdivides it first into sensory integration and then into executive functioning.

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And then from those two, we get into the cognitive processes, which are motor um skills

and like communication skills and

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and social skills, and I mean social skills in the literal sense and not the pejorative

sense.

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And then emotional regulation, and because all of those layer in together, we get like a

map to be able to help people navigate whatever environment they're in based off of how

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their sensory system works and how their executive functioning system.

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Love it.

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And recognizing that it's different, like every environment.

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You can't build one map.

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Just like you can't have a map of your house and expect it to work in Walmart.

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That is not going to work.

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So you have to build it up for each environment.

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So that's going to be different for school or home or going to the store or participating

in sports or going to art and doing art or whatever it is that each environment is going

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to be so completely different because what you're there for is different and what that

environment looks like is different and how your body responds to that environment is

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going to be different because all those things change.

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Thanks for watching.

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in that we acknowledge um sensory and motor in like the process.

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like people will now get, you people will acknowledge sensory.

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issues and they will acknowledge like motor planning issues.

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But then when it comes to actually addressing things, people...

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or get that they acknowledge.

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Well done.

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I think it does.

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And I think the reason for that is that a lot of people think that sensory processing

concerns are only when the big events happen or shocks your system instead of realizing,

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no, they're always happening.

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And then that impacts the integration because if you get a lot of your body in space, not

me, but most people, then you...

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You may need a lot of movement to be able to keep regulating.

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And that's going to be a constant thing, but it may only come out in the moments where it

bursts out in you to run.

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At the door because everything is over stimulating.

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There's something else is also going on at the same time.

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And these things are always going on.

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And so if you're not supporting them all based on the integration of them, it's also

really heavy for your brain.

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because it's getting too much of something and not enough of other things.

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And so the integration, your brain is having to do that in real time.

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And it's like, your brain isn't gonna be able to do that constantly in real time.

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So you have to think about it always as the baseline because every environment is sensory.

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huh.

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can listen to two hours recording a hobbit hole apartment with my weighted blanket that I

could not possibly do anywhere that I did not control the lights.

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Absolutely.

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I was going say, you know, and this is one of the things that parents need to think about

when they're like, I remember when one of my kids was younger, we discovered that the I

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can't for finding and putting on shoes as silly as the sound was connected to whether or

not I bought a shirt that had a tag attached to it or the stamped tag.

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I wanted to rid of all the tags in the shirts.

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Suddenly we could handle shoes in the day, but anything that had a tag made it so that

that extra step was just one step.

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It was just enough to throw the whole thing.

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That makes sense.

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It does.

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But it's true.

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It does.

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But it's true the whole day until we figured it out.

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like fourth theory.

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can you explain fork theory?

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Because I think most people know spoon theory, but fork theory is awesome for-

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Okay.

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So, in theory, is you only have energy.

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Have you heard of fork theory where there's only some inconvenient or uncomfortable things

you can handle in a day.

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You need to, at some points you need to remove a floor.

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You're everything over the floor.

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So for example, it's a day you are uncomfortable.

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You're sitting in a chair.

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That's not very nice.

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You need to pee.

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You're hungry.

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The lights are too bright and you're traffic.

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Okay.

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That's too many things going on.

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Yeah.

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Discomfortable.

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Discomfortable is in fact, you can fix one of those things and maybe get back regular.

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So like my go-to is always, oh, too many things are going on.

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I'm going to go pee.

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Easier to fit than being hungry.

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And I often don't have the specifics being hungry until I am not.

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uncomfortable that I'm going to melt down.

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Anything goes wrong.

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I love Forks theory.

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I also love spline theory.

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Are we familiar with swine?

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I am not.

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Remember swine?

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I am.

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You shared that with me ages ago.

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not a swine.

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Spine is my favorite actually, because, okay, for those of us who cannot change plans,

middle after we set up to do spline theory, basically, I don't even know where the person

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got reticulating splines from, I think it's from the loading page of a video game.

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It is.

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Okay.

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You get, you get all set up to do a thing.

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You're all ready to do your tasks for the day, right?

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Mentally set up the scaffolding.

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You maybe haven't even had to do any of the physical scaffolding.

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And then.

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So he says, I know we were going to go to the store, but can we go get lunch first?

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And everything crashes down internally because you have to change everything.

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That is the feeling of having to re-reticulate your spot.

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Oh, I love that one.

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That one is so perfect because it happens so often.

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Like this is why I have this thing where when I've got two very good friends that I go and

hang out pretty often with and they're both ADHD.

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And so when I go into their space, my, my rule is I am not planning on anything.

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I am going to go with what you direct.

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so whatever happens.

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personal rule where if you change something on me last minute, cannot solve the problem.

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You, you changed it on me, then you have to figure out what we're doing.

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You have to figure out every aspect of what we're doing instead, because I can't, you tore

down my splines.

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can't build them back up in the amount of time we have.

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You are now the spline holder.

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Yep.

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Yep.

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There's also...

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Oh, sorry, go ahead.

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I did the same thing.

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I don't say it that way, but like, no, it's like, I can't make any more decisions today.

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Yeah.

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start us thing it that way because people

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we're choosing to not understand that it wasn't a won't, it's a can't.

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So like, you're the spline holder now.

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You brought this upon yourself.

379

There's another one that I always love that I'm struggling to find, but it was matchstick

theory.

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One of the things that I loved about that one is, you know, the concept of a spoon and

forks.

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Those are reusable.

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And when you're talking about energy and disability.

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It's fine me.

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That is the deed.

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I use that match and I burn it and you know what?

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It's gone and it might towards my fingers, but I get to decide what I'm using my band

matches on.

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You don't.

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Yes.

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I actually don't use spoon theory on the daily, I actually use spell slot.

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because there are things that are level 5 spell slots and there are some things that are

level 5 spell slots and I get a number of level 1

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spell slots, right?

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What are in blitz squats?

393

Spell slots as in for magic.

394

Spell slots.

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So, okay, and it seems like D &D, a larger number of spell slots for lower level, easier

magic, and then for your higher level, you get many fewer.

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So like there are some things that are level one or level two spell slots.

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They're easy.

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I can do them.

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I can a number of these.

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So like, you know, I can take a shower.

401

That's easy for me.

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I can make my bed.

403

That's easy for me.

404

I can feed cats.

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That's easy for me.

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Then I was doing laundry.

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Oh

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going to the post office.

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These are like my level five, six spell slots.

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I can do one of these things.

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I cannot do both of these in a dump.

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And now can I feed the cats with my um level five spell slot?

413

Yes.

414

Can I go to the post office with my level one spell slot?

415

Absolutely not.

416

Right.

417

uh

418

going to happen.

419

So that kind of allows for more on the differentiation between difficulty of tasks.

420

It's kind of the same as spoons, but it's also different because

421

Spoons, your counting spoons is the number of tasks you can do in a day.

422

And I'm kind of a number of tasks I can do in a day person, the amount of energy in a day

kind of person.

423

Yeah.

424

Right.

425

Bye.

426

I don't think I'd do it by that, but I think my my functioning is just so variable that I

don't have like because there are different things I can do to gain I guess a spell slot

427

but like how much of a spell slot I gained back isn't clear until I've ended it

428

Mm-hmm.

429

Yes.

430

Don't tell anyone we're as-histics using metaphors.

431

We're not allowed.

432

Take our cards away.

433

I would almost say that's sarcastic, but I don't know that either.

434

I know

435

I'm sarcasm, I'm autistic.

436

I know.

437

definitely not funny.

438

We have no sense of humor.

439

We just don't think non things that aren't funny need a laugh

440

That's my favorite bad research paper.

441

shit, I don't know where that is.

442

know, give a little context, know, people may not know.

443

Okay.

444

they did, somebody did some research about how, they compared it was comparing laughter in

autistic people and people with Down syndrome.

445

Did this by showing autistic kids and kids with Down syndrome, allegedly funny videos in

which it wasn't just like something funny, it like something embarrassing funny happened.

446

And then watching the laughter.

447

I believe they also showed them something.

448

funny.

449

Full disclosure, I don't think embarrassing funny is funny.

450

I'm like, Oh, secondhand.

451

uh I'm uncomfortable.

452

Yeah

453

The kids with Down syndrome, social laugh in addition to sincere laugh.

454

The autistic kids, only sincere laugh.

455

And okay, so things to know about laughter.

456

People can tell if it's a sincere laugh or a social laugh, laughing to match everybody

else laugh.

457

People prefer real laughs.

458

The conclusion of this study was,

459

So we need to teach autistic kids to take a life.

460

And nothing's funny, even though it's not.

461

Good that they aren't being true to themselves and since they don't think this is funny

they're not laughing.

462

We need to teach them to be more fake.

463

You know what mean?

464

like so.

465

uh I'm signing things, but we just don't do unfunny things based off laughter.

466

it like just blames me is that it's not even like people prefer or even enjoy a fake

laugh.

467

Kind of laughing autistic people are doing is genuinely superior and yes.

468

So that's like

469

about the fact that maybe we as a society shouldn't think that it's you should socially

laugh at someone being embarrassed or harmed.

470

You know what I mean?

471

But no, we have to get you know, we need to be fixed, not them.

472

And don't forget about the one I know you talk about this one sometimes, where they were

saying that there's something was wrong with us because of us being all too altruistic,

473

not wanting to do that.

474

Well, yeah, so you want to talk about that one, too?

475

you can talk.

476

that one.

477

Okay, sure.

478

So y'all correct me if I get this wrong.

479

um One of the, they did research and it determined that autistic people will not typically

in the study would not do things that violated our ethics, even for personal gain, like,

480

you know, found a bunch of money or something like that.

481

So even if it was, so we would rather, you know, we would rather have less of something or

do without than lie to for gain.

482

And so they found that that was something that's wrong with us.

483

We're not ambitious enough because the typical person is going to do what is in their own

best interest as opposed to what is the ethical thing to do.

484

So we were deficient because of that.

485

I mean, goes along with the fact that researchers thought that for years being unethical

like that was like a human norm.

486

It was only when they started studying other cultures that are not as uh colonized that

they found that there was more altruism and more acceptance of basic human being-fancy in

487

other cultures.

488

Yeah, no, y'all have just been wrong about what human nature is.

489

uh Y'all are just kind of bad at being people.

490

And it was also a study where uh, think sick people would not, it would give the same.

491

There's an ethical conundrum, whether they were being.

492

or not, or is that the same one?

493

I think that's a thing.

494

No, that's a, I think that's different one.

495

Actually, I'm not sure, but either way, still shows that they are, they're, you know,

like, pathologizing something that should be a good trait.

496

We're morally consistent and somehow that's a problem.

497

Yeah.

498

about.

499

That was a

500

to tie that back to the affidavit supremacy that we were talking about.

501

We also have to remember that some people's ethics we don't agree with.

502

Yes.

503

Yeah, some people's ethics we don't agree with, but at least we know they're morally

consistent.

504

So if they're staying to our face, they're definitely acting on it behind their backs and

we can call them jerk walks with impunity.

505

And that's why I'm for them to want to train us not to do that because you know what I

mean?

506

Travel, uh

507

I definitely floored because I read Remy saying that definitely had very many curse words.

508

Yeah.

509

I'll read the point Remy's writing.

510

It's pointless.

511

and a lot of my writing done.

512

uh

513

I'm capable of that.

514

Oh my goodness.

515

I think we're winding down.

516

It sounds like we're...

517

we are.

518

yeah.

519

think so.

520

So, before we hang up.

521

Marenkay, do you have anything coming that you want to promote?

522

not promoting my stuff until after it's done.

523

I do want to share this though.

524

wonder if, although there's no source that's perfect, but I wonder if maybe we could close

with sharing a few places that might be helpful for people who want to dig into some

525

information about the history or understand some key moments.

526

you know, like, cause we don't know, you everyone's grabbing a little bit of this on

TikTok, a little bit of this on IG, a little bit of this, wherever they found from

527

whatever.

528

And we don't know who they, you know, like we talked about, you know, first, you know,

that some people have no idea who Milbags was, or they don't know who Anita Cameron is or

529

whatever, you know I mean?

530

Like, so I'm wondering if maybe that we could, even if there are things that we feel, you

know, still could use some work or maybe aren't as inclusive as they should be, if we

531

could just kind of.

532

suggest a few resources for people to kind of do a little more digging themselves.

533

I'm going to go ahead and suggest Autistic Archive.

534

That's sites.google.com slash view slash autistic dash archive slash home.

535

And that has timeline, it has books, it has people.

536

Not everyone is on there, but it is a really good place to start and it has um other

websites so you can find other things that came before and do some reading there.

537

Am I still, uh am I allowed to, you know, promote something I've been working on?

538

Yes.

539

Yeah, I am, I'm almost done, but by the time this is out, I will be on chaoscares.com.

540

I'm building a symptom and doctor and medication and like everything, disability, all of

the tracker thing that you need.

541

And it'll even have like the ability to type in your doctor's office and then it's going

to have the buttons where you can click and go straight to your portal or click in, it'll

542

dial the doctor for you.

543

on your phone.

544

Cool.

545

doing no things.

546

Ha ha ha ha!

547

I want to share, if you know, again, for anyone who knows about this, sorry, but I don't

know what y'all know and don't know.

548

So I'm going to share it that there is an open access book that came out.

549

this out to 2016.

550

I'm trying to what it was.

551

I think that was 2018.

552

from my is 2020.

553

Yeah, sorry.

554

It was edited by Stephen Capp, who's autistic and it has, you know, primarily autistic

authors, although there's a few people who are holistic in there.

555

And it's called Autistic Community and the Neurodiversity Movement Stories from the

Frontline.

556

so it's, you know, there is a hard copy book, but the book is free.

557

The entire book is available online, but there's also individual chapters.

558

They're also free and available online.

559

And so people can, you know, review those.

560

And if they're interested in looking into that,

561

Just kind of list a couple of the names of a couple of chapters once I get to the right

page.

562

I think it's just helpful.

563

It's thought, it talks about Jim Sinclair's Don't Mourn for Us.

564

It talks about like the independent living movement and, you know, some of the how, you

know, it talks about autistics.org.

565

So some of these things you'll also see in the Autistic Archive.

566

It talks about some of the, you know, the different, like the development of the Aspire

Network.

567

a lot of the work, you know, the self-advocacy work into what we talked about, you know,

this transition between DSM four and five.

568

It talks about Autism Speaks.

569

It talks about the first autism and race anthology, like protesting, the genocide clock.

570

There's a lot of different, some of the autism or autistic gatherings like OTSCAPE.

571

So it's just, you know, it's a way for people to kind of just look into, you know, what...

572

things that have been important in our movement because it's a fairly young movement, but

it's 30 something years.

573

I mean, it's like, it's not old, you know, and it's still growing.

574

And I want to do one other thing because it's not on the archive and it doesn't sound like

it's going to be on there.

575

Back in the, I want to say it was the late aughts or maybe early 2010s, the Society for

Disability Studies journal did a whole journal on neurodiversity and it has some of the

576

earliest like academic writing on the movement.

577

me, disability studies quarterly and you can look it up.

578

DSQ Neurodiversity and it should come up pretty, yeah, the first link does.

579

And so you can go and look at that whole journal to see some early academic writing around

this.

580

And to pull it out of academic stuff, because although I'm a nerd, also realize that it's

not everybody's thing.

581

I really love, I talked about Anita Cameron, has been involved, who's autistic as well as

blind and queer, a number of things, black, et cetera.

582

But it's basically created an initiative called We Were There Too.

583

And so it's going to be like narrative storytelling, imagery, things like that,

highlighting.

584

It's not solely autistic people.

585

You know, it's like a lot of black disabled activists in general.

586

But of course, you know, being that Anita is mostly disabled, including autistic, there's

some of that as well.

587

But it talks about a lot of really cool things.

588

you know, with, you know, so it's another project that's unfolding.

589

It's actually being funded by Borealis Philanthropy and Autistic Women in Non-Binary

Network is the fiscal partner to support the program.

590

So that's another one it kind of talks about.

591

why some of us are left out of the movement, why our voices are not included.

592

It shares the stories of different activists and some images and things like that.

593

So it's worth checking out.

594

The website is wewherethere2.org.

595

Alright.

596

Well, thank you everyone for listening.

597

I hope you enjoyed and we will come back and do this all again later.

598

Are we supposed to end with some kind of saying about how it's like hurting cats when we

get together or whatever?

599

I can't remember how we're supposed to do it.

600

I wanna

601

I'm gonna go.

602

I don't know, but I actually need to go herd my cats.

603

So she liked it.

604

You got me this time.

605

So I'll say goodbye for everybody.

606

Bye, everybody.

607

Thanks for listening to Herding Cats.

608

If you like what you hear, please like and subscribe.

609

It really helps us grow our community with your help.