What does it take to build a tribute band into a full-time business?

In this episode of Backstage Money, host Jason K. Powers talks with Nikki Starr, founder, owner, manager, and guitarist of That Arena Rock Show, about building one of the hardest working tribute bands on the circuit from the ground up. Now up to 94 shows a year, Nikki shares the real business decisions behind the stage show - reinvesting merch money, door deals, betting on yourself, and what it actually takes to make music your full-time job.

If you're trying to build a sustainable career in music, this episode is packed with real, hard-won lessons from someone who figured it out.

Topics include:

• Building a tribute band into a real business
• Reinvesting merch and show money to grow your production
• Door deals and why they changed everything
• Finding the right band members who share your vision
• The reality of life on the road vs. the dream
• What it takes to go from 20 shows to 94 shows a year

Follow Nikki Starr & That Arena Rock Show

Website: https://www.thatarenarockshow.com

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thatarenarockshow

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/thatarenarockshow

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@ThatArenaRockShow

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Free Guide for Musicians Download A Musician's Guide to Financial Stability https://1024wealth.com/music

Welcome to Backstage Money, Real World Finance for Musicians.

I'm your host, Jason K. Powers, and this is the show where we pull

back the curtain on the business and money side of life in music.

Every episode, we sit down with working musicians and industry insiders, those who

have been making it work and figuring out in the trenches, so you can learn from the

people who are actually making it work.

So today, I'm excited.

I'm sitting down here with Nikki Star, founder, owner, manager, and

guitarist of That Arena Rock Show.

It is a high-energy cover band bringing you all the favorites

from the '80s and beyond.

Nikki, welcome to the show.

Hey, thanks for having me, man.

Yeah, I appreciate you.

It was great meeting you guys a while back.

We talked about when you were coming here through Denver and just seeing the

performance on stage and all the stuff you were bringing on stage and, and, uh,

it, it was really neat and I was glad you guys were hanging out afterward.

We have this conversation quite a bit about bands' willingness to meet, meet

their fans before, during, or after the show, you know, and, and so it

was great visiting with you guys after that show and, you know, here we are.

Now you're on the podcast.

Yeah,

Yeah.

Very cool.

Yeah, we love to hang out afterwards and meet.

That's one of my favorite parts of getting to do what we do is to meet so

many different people and you know, now I can say I have friends in, you know, Key

West, Florida Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, you know, Wayland, New York, and, you

know, if I wasn't doing this I barely have five friends here around the house.

So,

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's right.

That's right.

And I'm sure it's a new experience every day, you know, meeting,

meeting everybody under the sun.

Yeah.

let's jump into... I wanna hear about kind of how you got started.

How'd you get into this?

And I know there's a fun like karaoke story in there and yeah,

I mean, take us all the way back and how'd you get into this?

So, I've been playing music probably since I was 16.

I think I was in my first band when I was 16, and I loved it.

I was always trying to figure out a way to do it and make it like

my job, ma- do it for a living.

And I was in original bands, and it was almost impossible to try to make a- any

money doing what we were doing, at least w- on, on a l- where we were doing it.

You know, we had fun shows where we got to open up for major bands

and stuff like that, but, you know, you, you had to sell tickets to be

on those shows, and you didn't make any money and on and on and on.

Anyways, I got to a point where I got kind of frustrated and my life was kind

of, I g- I had got laid off from my job.

I was getting married.

and all while that was happening, I kinda just was like, "You know what? I'm, I'm

done with music. I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna focus on, you know, my life

for a little bit and try to, you know, find a new job." And you know, I just

bought a house and all this kind of stuff.

So it was kind of a stressful in my life.

And so a couple years go down, you know, go by and I'm kinda having

that itch to play music again.

I see this, uh, another original band kinda doing it, and it seems like

they were h- finding some success.

So I joined up with them for a little bit, and that kinda fell apart.

And the s- the...

But the drummer from that band was going to audition for the STP gig.

If you remember, Stone Temple Pilots did a thing where they had auditions.

Like, they would have people send in auditions and stuff like that.

Anyways because he was doing that, he wanted to put together a STP tribute show

and asked if I would play guitar for it.

And I was like "Eh, you know, I, I don't know. It, it... That's not really my

favorite band or anything like that. I don't know how interested I'd be in

that." But he told me it was at a local venue here in Cincinnati, Ohio, that I've

always wanted to play called Bogart's.

So I was like, "You know what?

I'll, I'll do it.

I'll do it.

It'll be fun.

Be a fun little thing to do, and I'll get to play a place I've always

wanted to play." And I did it, and that turned into him turning it into

a full-blown tribute band called STP2.

We put together a show with, like, two or three other grunge bands and

called it Grunge Night, I think.

W- we played at Bogart's with that, with all three bands, and

it ended up go- hitting capacity which was like 1,400 people.

So all these other venues in Live Nation saw that, and they started booking

us in all their venues around, eh, the Midwest, you know, like Kentucky,

Indiana, Ohio, Michigan, stuff like that.

I knew that that was gonna be a short-lived thing because that guy

really wanted to do his own music.

He wanted to have his own band a- and do his own original thing.

He didn't really wanna be in a tribute band.

um, as I was going around that little circuit, I was kinda understanding,

like, why that ma- why that all made sense, like why, tribute bands could,

you know, draw that kind of a crowd.

And, you know, it was also stuff I was not used to, which was,

like, playing the nicest rooms.

You actually got paid.

Yeah.

Imagine that.

you know, they treated you well.

You didn't... You weren't playing at midnight, uh, in front of five people.

It was, you know, you're playing at 9:00, and you got to set your

stuff up on the stage and you know, you were the headliner.

It was, like, a completely different thing for me.

So I was like, man, if I could just figure out how to do this with the music that I

was, you know, raised on, which was like '70s and '80s rock, you know, Aerosmith,

Kiss, Def Leppard, that kind of stuff.

I was like, if I could figure out how to do that with the stuff I

love, I really think we could turn...

I could build something you know, A, build a really, really cool show, then I also

felt like I could take it from a business side and scale it to to make more and

more money to grow and not be so worried about how much we were making at first

because I felt like at the, you know, at, you know, two, three, four years down

the road we would start to make bigger and bigger money and stuff like that.

So that's kind of what I was set out to do is, was put together a an, a

'70s, '80s rock kind of tribute show.

I've always kind of liked the idea of theatrics because I'm a big

Alice Cooper fan, a big Kiss fan.

And I thought if we could just take like of our favorite moments from a show, put

it into one, have a show that had like a crazy light show and then five high,

highly energetic guys on stage that can entertain, I really think that it would

be something you know, something cool.

And so I kinda reached out to a few people, and I had a, you know, I had a

band, but I didn't really have a singer.

so... And this was all while I was still in that STP tribute band.

And there's... I saw this video that was shared on Facebook of

this kid singing karaoke at a bar up in Frank- Franklin, Ohio.

And he was just killing some Led Zepp, and I'm like, man, who is this guy, you know?

And come, you know, come a couple like weeks later, he ended up coming

to one of our shows, uh, our shows, and I got to meet him and his family.

I was like, "Man, if, I, I saw a video of you singing online.

Like, if we ever if you ever get the chance, we should get together and,

you know, jam and just, you know, have some fun." So, he was all about it and,

and I invited him over and we, we had a rehearsal and I could see instantly

this guy had a lot of potential.

He'd never been in a band before.

I could kinda tell he's probably never sang with a live band before when he

came over, but I was like, "This guy has it." Like, that- that's kinda

the hard thing to find is someone that has it, you know what I mean?

I, I don't know how to describe what it is, but he

When

it and,

you know.

you know.

Exactly.

Exactly.

And I was like, if we just put some time into this guy and rehearse

this guy will be he'll be awesome.

And, So we did that.

We start to, you know, we had a band and it kind of fell apart.

And so we just kind of constantly kept throwing new people, like a new drummer

and a new bass player and a new guitar player in because it was kind of hard.

They like, they didn't see the end result.

but like I kind of had the vision of where this is gonna go and what

I wanted to see it do, but I don't know that everybody that like jumped

in while we were rehearsing saw that.

Mm-hmm.

Um, uh, we finally, you know, got a stable lineup and a good enough show together

and I said, I told these guys, I was like, "Look, what happened with us with the SCP

thing was, is we played this show and it hit the sh-" You know, at that time it

wasn't necessarily about selling tickets, it was about putting as many people in

a room as possible 'cause Live Nation at the time would hand out free tickets.

And so I was like, "Well, all we have to do is we gotta, we gotta put our own show

on at Bogart's and make it hit capacity." That's like goal number one, you know?

Um, so we took a couple shows where we were the opening band just to kind

of get out there and get our, you know, our feet wet and and you know,

just get out there and prove and show people that what this is and that

it exists and that sort of a thing.

So we did, and it was it was a, it was successful because we were opening up for

some big tributes that had big crowds.

I think the first one we opened for was a Black Sabbath tribute with Vinnie

Appice playing drums, who's the... He played drums in Black Sabbath and for

Ronnie James Dio and stuff like that.

And then the second time we played Bogart's, it was with Thunderstruck,

which was an AC/DC tribute.

And they both, both times we were played in front of big crowds and

kind of proved ourselves to where I think it drew some interest for people

to want to see us at our own show.

And then also, uh, again, with the free tickets thing, like, so Bogart's

would hand us out like stacks of tickets, I mean, thousand, 2,000

tickets, and we would go around, just pass them to everyone we know.

We would take them to like, um, you know, CD stores or whatever and just sit a stack

down and just because it was like, you know, if these people show up, it's gonna

turn into this, what I'm wanting it to do.

And so I remember we, we had our first headline show there at Bogart's

and the the... When I was kind of friends with the owner, like the

guy that ran the place, the manager.

uh, I remember talking to him when we were loading in and stuff, and he's like,

"Yeah, we're expecting, you know, maybe 300, 400 people tonight." I was like,

"Okay." And 'cause I'm like, "That's, no, I'm expecting 1,400." So, um- So they, I

think they sold maybe 200 or 300 tickets, and then with all those comp tickets it

hit capacity and I remember getting texts from the booking guy from the venue.

He's like, "Man, this is doing better than we thought. There's 800 people

in the room." I'm like, "Ah, just hold on. There's gonna be more."

Yeah.

Like we've done, yeah.

on, he texts me.

He's like, "Man, the, the place is at capacity.

Like, there's a line outside waiting to get in

Wow.

leave." So yeah, it was like right after that, it was just like it kinda did the

same thing where like all the different, uh, Live Nation venues wanted to book

us in all their different venues in, you know, Ohio, Kentucky, you know, uh...

We were even getting stuff down in like Myrtle Beach,

North Carolina stuff like that.

And from there we, we sought after a a booking agent we had a guy that was

kinda getting us some stuff and yeah.

So we finally kinda branched out and got to start playing some shows

and you know, at that point our show wasn't exactly what it is now.

Like, now what you see now is like what I had envisioned when we first started.

Like, I wanted a big light show, a big production, a big, you know, a big stage,

video content, stuff like that, which I think in Golden, Colorado, I don't think

we were able to use all of our stuff.

But if you see videos of like where we get to pl- where, where we get to use

all of our stuff, like that was kinda like what I envisioned this being.

But when we first started out, we had you know, like scrims, one on

each side that looked like big giant speakers, and then a big backdrop.

and we just thought, you know, at the time we thought, "Dude, this is... We

This is cool.

Yeah.

back at, I look back at that stuff and I'm like, "Oh my gosh."

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, it's, you know, it's that old, we come a long way, baby.

Yeah, yeah,

Uh, that's fun.

That's fun.

Well, so let's talk about for a minute then, you touched on

it, finding the right members.

What makes it work?

What kinds of things do you go through to make it work?

And, you know, every band's got their needs, but what was kind

of the mental process of that?

And we've gotta find the right members, or these aren't the right fit because why?

And, you know, what's that look like for you?

Um, when we first started out you know, we were only playing within

three to five hours from here just because, you know, nobody else had

heard of us to get us further out.

And at the time, that lineup of guys that was in the band, like that was cool.

They were okay with that, and it was like, you know, we maybe were playing 10 to

20 shows a year or something like that.

And, And, you know, a couple of them, like the pandemic hit, and I think

they started to rethink what they wanted to do with their time and their

weekends and stuff like that, and you know, which is understandable.

I mean, you know, you're... When you're young, you're not exactly

sure, you know, 24, 25 years old, you don't it all mapped out or whatever.

Like, you,

Yeah.

you know.

Anyways so one of the guitar players at the... An initial guitar player

that we had decided to leave, and because he wanted to go start a family,

wanted to get married, and just not be, not do music, and which I get.

And we were starting to, you know, play out a little further and stuff like that.

So he just wasn't on board with that, so we I think we had to... We- our

bass player at the time moved to guitar, and then we got a new bass

player, and that bass player's the guy that actually is with us today.

But what it takes is five like-minded individuals that all want the same thing.

Well, in our case, five.

you know, like, got to a point where we were starting to talk,

like, while the pandemic was going on and we weren't having shows.

It was like, do we wanna, like, this into a real thing, like, to where it's a, you

know, a real job, or do we wanna just, like, have fun with it on the weekends?

Like, what, what is everyone's interest?

And everyone, you know, at that time was like, "Dude, let's, let's turn this

into as busy as we can make it." And so from that point on, that was kind

of the goal, was to to just on the gas and try to go out there and play any

opportunity we can get so that, you know, maybe a few years down the road

we're playing those markets again and we're making better money or whatever.

while that happened, you know, of course there could be con- you

know, conflicts within the band with disagreements or you're with each other a

Right.

and it's easy to... I always tell people it's easy to step on people's toes.

You know, if you're dancing with people enough, long enough,

you're gonna step on their toes.

Yeah.

you know, that can happen or, you know, again, young people.

Uh, there's been a lot of younger guys in this band, and they, know, will

change their mind on what they wanna do.

Mm-hmm.

23, this sounded awesome, but 27, 28, they're like, "Ah, I kinda

What?

kinda wanna take it easy," you know, and so that sort of stuff.

So, and that's completely fine.

Completely fine.

I imagine once you find out-- once some people find out the real dedication,

the real commitment to it, a-a-and the sacrifice that you make in putting

into that is-- can be a hindrance.

You know, it's a... You're waking up from this dream you imagined this life to be

like, and you're like, "Oh, wait, this

Yeah

this isn't what I really want."

Right.

Right.

I mean, you know, when you dream about it, it's you're on a tour bus

and somebody's setting all your stuff up, and you wake up at 7:00 PM and

you can go out and play the show, and then go back to your tour bus and hang

out and go back to bed or whatever.

That's not it at all.

It's a very, very long day for us anyways.

You know, A, you have the travel, whatever that is, 5, 10,

you know, 15 hours some trips.

And then you're... You got a show day, so then it's set...

It's a pretty much a 12-hour day.

You know, you load in around 12 and you get set up, you do your soundcheck.

you- after that you go eat, and then get ready for the show, play the show,

and then you gotta tear it all down.

So it's a, it's a lot of work,

Mm-hmm.

you know, that you know, that a lot of people might not when they're

getting into it or whatever.

and, you know, on top of that, throughout the week you gotta stay up on your chops.

You know, it... Like, for me, like I'm... Through the week I'm kind of the guy

running the ads for shows you know, doing the social media you know, advancing shows

all, all that kind of stuff, doing the

Yeah.

and that kind of stuff.

So it's full, full-time job for me.

Yeah,

Um, you know, it's through the week, it's on the weekends,

it's it never stops, you know?

If a truck breaks down on the way out to, you know, Georgia, like

this weekend, you know, somebody's gotta be the guy they call to, to

figure that out, and it's, that's me.

So it's like you're always on call, you know?

That's

Uh, there's, there's no break from it.

But I wouldn't have it

it.

way.

I love what we get to do.

I

Yeah.

I love this, You know, I've always wanted to play music for my- for

a living, and now I get to do it.

And

Yeah.

Stanley used to say was "If you're lucky enough to hit the lottery, don't

complain about paying the taxes."

So, you know,

true.

I feel.

You know, there's a lot of stuff I could complain about s- a lot of things

that I probably don't like about what I have to do, but I'm getting to do every

day what I love to do, so it's like

yeah,

I'll

yeah.

That's the payoff.

That's the payoff.

You know, getting to do what you love and, uh, that's it.

That's it.

Let's talk a minute about y- you've mentioned, you know, when you started

out, you had a couple of scrims and a real basic setup and that's evolved a

ton over, how many years has it been now?

It's been-

so we

Yeah.

Our first show was in '18, 2018,

Okay.

um, but we kinda started in late '17.

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

Um, so whatever the math is on

Yeah, but you've evolved.

I mean, just,

Yeah.

you've made some intentional decisions to invest in production,

Yeah

for example and that's I think what stands apart from the average say band

that's doing covers is that, right?

That helps you stand apart, but that's, I think, what has also helped catapult you a

little bit further is just this constant, but it's an intentional decision, I think,

Yeah.

to reinvest in this production setup that you have.

Yep.

Yeah.

So it's always been the idea to constantly get to a point where, you

know, our stage setup looks professional.

when we had those scrims, we thought those were awesome.

So one thing that we did so, like, financially, something that

I do was merch money was always goes right back into the band.

So if we invest in, you know, 50 shirts, and then we make a profit on those

shirts, that money stays in a pot that goes to, to take care of certain things.

as, know, I'm kind of fast-forwarding a little bit.

As we as a band have become more successful, now we take a percentage of

our show money and also throw that back in there because, you know, we've got trucks.

We've got you know, flat tires happen.

People need more guitar picks, g- you know, sticks, et cetera, et cetera.

But anyways, back to where we were.

So I would take that merch money and try to figure out how we can our setup.

So we moved from the scrims to, like, these, They looked like cabinets,

but they had lights in them, and they were programmed to our show.

So, like, to a click track you know, they would kind of flash based off

of whatever song was being played.

And that was really cool for a little bit until we realized that

they weren't really built to last, you know, 50, 60 shows a year.

They were built to last, you know, one or two shows you know.

So we...

They were starting to fall apart after a year or so.

And and I said, "You know what? We, we really need to invest in something

that we can that, A, is on wheels and, B, you know, looked professional

that we don't have to constantly keep changing out," that kind of a thing.

and so we had this idea to create these carts.

They're, uh... They were fabbed local fab shop, then we had this guy that

made, like, dummy cabinets, and they were put into the front of them.

So it looks like th- there's speakers on our stage, right?

But behind it is really just shelves.

It's where we can put... Like, we have geysers, smoke geysers back there

that are preset, kind of pre-wired.

That's where all the lighting that is sitting on top of that stuff goes, like,

when we're in tran- or transporting it.

So basically, we just needed we needed a way to, Store and travel with all that

stuff, and then also make it an easy setup to where we can just pull all that

stuff out, put it on top of the cabinets, and all the wiring would be ready to go.

You just plug and play kind of a thing to make our load-ins you know,

Yeah.

building.

You know, if I was rich, I would've started out like this, but, you

Yeah.

So, um, you know, so we had to start with what we, you know, the kind of money

we had and tried to look the best we could with the money that we had at the

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, it's so smart 'cause a lot of people-- A constant conversation with

the music community is this, you know, this starving artist kind of idea, you

know, and everybody starts from somewhere And everybody's kind of broke at first

trying to build their music business and it's such a smart move that I don't think

enough people do, is reinvest in your own business, reinvest in your own self

really and not just, "I make the money."

Yeah, you've gotta keep the lights on, I get it.

But I think there's a mental shift if you're like, "Okay, I know," whatever

it is you're setting aside, "I know 20% of everything is gonna go right back

into the business." So that means if I in fact do need to pocket X amount,

you're gonna, you're gonna go out and hustle and find a way to close that gap,

Yeah.

like you're hustling to get the gig anyway, just like you're hustling to

get the money you're currently making.

And if you're like, "Well, I need 20% more," I... Most people, I

think once that fire is under their butt, you're gonna find a way,

Oh, yeah.

Definitely.

And, but yeah, I think that's a real smart move for any musician is just to

kinda making sure a percentage of that goes back to the business, goes back

to the band to, to reinvest and build and grow and- And cover their butts.

Flat tires happen, you hear about it all the time.

All the time.

Car.

more than I want it to, that's for sure.

yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, a- a-

And- Like-

I think, um, when we first started we had people in the band were more interested in

making the money versus holding back money

to invest.

And it took a lot of conversations and you know, time

Yeah.

is

I

Can exist the way we are right now.

but if we're not in this thing and making it grow, we're never gonna get

to the level that we wanna be at and make the money that we wanna make.

mean-

so, like, to me, it was always like, when we first started, like, let's do that.

Like, let's do the investing now.

That way, later on down the road, like, of course, we're gonna have

to keep reinvesting, but maybe the hard part's out of the way, you know?

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, that's great.

So tell me kind of how you got from, let's say around 2021, I think I was

reading that you did about 20 shows.

Fast-forward to now you're doing what?

80 or 90-plus a year?

Yeah.

Last year was 94.

Our goal was to hit 100.

We just ne- we

Yeah.

to it.

This year our goal is to hit 100, and I think we're around

78, 80, somewhere around there.

So, I think it's possible.

78, 80 booked.

so I'm hoping that I'm hoping that gets there.

But it really took just saying yes to, like, every opportunity that came.

I mean, obviously you don't wanna do dumb stuff that doesn't make sense.

But,

Great.

we would as much around here as possible, and then any- anytime we

could get an agent to get us something out out you know, west or something,

the, in markets that we haven't been in, we'd be like, "Please,"

Mm-hmm.

Um, something that really happened that really helped us was we

went down and played, We had an

Yeah.

You should check it out.

But anyways,

Yeah.

Island was, like, a big '80s rock festival that was put on in Key

West, Florida for two or three years.

The last year they lost a lot of money, and it didn't- they obviously

I don't think it's coming back.

But, but he had us at, for, like, a pre-party at his bar for all

three years, and then they would give us tickets to, like, go watch

the main show, like, side stage.

Like, I was watching Styx one time, and some guy came up behind me,

and he's like, "Hey, what songs, uh, what songs have they played?"

And it was Gary Cherone from Extreme, and Nuno Bettencourt's sitting right

next, standing right next to him.

I'm like, "What the hell?" You know.

So anyways, my point in that was is like we were trying to take opportunities to

hopefully get more opportunities, right?

So

Mm-hmm.

example of one that worked for us.

We went down to Key West, lost money on the trip, but it ended

up getting us opportunities in all kinds of other places.

Like, there was other venues that booked us because they saw us at Rock Island.

So yeah, it, it, Sometimes you gotta take opportunities even

though they're not gonna be the most the best situations financially.

but now, you know, we can go down to Key West every October

and play that Fantasy Fest.

They book us two nights now.

we've found some other shows to kinda help it,

Yeah.

Um, so, so yeah.

Yeah, it's it's all about being strategic with a lot of the things you're

Yeah.

And, uh, I'm helping with a couple other bands you know, like get,

book some shows and whatnot.

And I've- I'm telling them all it's, don't worry about the money at first.

Like, worry about getting people there to see you, and worry about putting on

a great show that makes people wanna come back to see you again, and, you

know, the money will come, you know?

So yeah.

And and another thing that really helped me out, and I wanna say it was maybe two

or three years ago that someone taught me, was to do something called a door deal.

we were kinda place where like, you know, maybe this was three or four years

ago, where like, venues were maybe a little more skeptical about booking us

for whatever fee we would be asking.

And because they w- they've never heard of us or we don't have

history in their market or whatever.

And a guy told me, he said what you need to do is take a door deal," which is like

you, you make a deal where you get 70% or 80% of the gross ticket sales, and then

you run your own ads and try to make, try to sell your own tickets. I was like,

"Man, that sounds way backwards from the

Yeah.

I've always, you know, been taught." Like, I wanna, you know, make some

solid guarantees and whatever.

But anyways, we tried it out, and it was the best thing that could've ever

happened for us because we instantly started getting booked more because we

were willing to take those kinda deals.

And then you know, I would spend, you know, 1,000, 1,500,

$2,000 sometimes on some shows.

And they now... Some of those shows are now some of our biggest grossing shows.

Or, you know, like it's led us to other places or whatever, or now

we're getting better guarantees in those places and don't have

to do door deals stuff like that.

So it, it's really all about betting on yourself, um, and

you would front the co- some of that cost,

all of it.

and then

Yeah

with your initi- with your hustle and your initial fan base relationships

and contact lists maybe, right?

Your, your marketing...

mainly running Facebook ads.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So a lot of people I tell them this, is like, you can have the best product

in the world, but if no one knows it exists, really matter if it's the

greatest product in the world, you

Yeah.

So sure that you're seen or making sure that people know that your

event exists is extremely important.

So, you know, like, that's, that was kind of the whole idea with a lot of

our shows, like took us up another level when it came to, like, money, like

getting paid by a venue, like instantly.

You know, and was the greatest thing that anyone could have ever taught

me was to run our own Facebook ads, do door deals, and bet on yourself

in a lot of these different markets.

And then eventually, you know, maybe better venues or or those

venues that you're in will offer you better money, that kind of a thing.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

So let's look at the other side of the coin.

You know, we talk about good deals and bad deals.

I love how you're explaining it 'cause it's... These are

calculated risks in a way, right?

They're not so much flippant.

It's not just I'm gonna blatantly go out and get taken advantage of

and work for free and lose money.

It's more of a calculated, "This one might be a loss leader, but it's

probably gonna lead to other things,"

Yeah.

know?

And it's build relationships, certainly.

You know, build these relationships and make those contacts and then

you have that rapport, right?

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

so talk to me about you know, we talk about good deals and bad deals.

Maybe share a time you got into a deal that didn't go the way you

expected and what you learned from it.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

So on the flip side of some of those tour deals, there's been home runs.

You know, we've killed it on some, but there's been some that

it was like the hell happened?

You know?

What

So

have

know.

So it, and there's instances where that happens where, you know, you know,

maybe it paid enough for the ads, but it didn't pay enough to pay like you

know, the musicians in the band, or it didn't pay enough to, for the gas or...

So, you know, that's a loss.

But like I said, like I do now is I have that merch money and I have

like a percentage of show money that gets held back from pretty

much every show, and that will cover it, you know, i- if we have a loss.

It doesn't happen as much anymore, but when we were gambling a lot there for

the, the first few years you know, it was probably 90/10, like 90% were either

home runs or really good results, then there'd be like a s- you know, one every

10 shows that was like, "Oh man, that sucked." And then, you know, as far as

other, you know, bad deals you know, early on we had someone book us a show and they

told us it was for X amount of money.

Contract that I never saw was for a different amount of money.

So that guy that booked it got that money, and then he took a percentage of our pay.

So that taught me a big thing where always check, you know, your contracts,

make sure you're getting to see those.

with door deals, you know, you don't have that issue, you know.

That, that's kind of been cool.

But but yeah, if you're doing a guarantee, make sure whatever agent or someone,

whoever's booking you the show, make sure that you see the contract and that you

sign it, and that you get to see exactly what you're owed and make sure that

there's no funny business going on, 'cause

Yeah.

uh, that resulted in us not wanting to work with that guy anymore.

And,

sure.

yeah.

It's

if he'd

that old...

and said, "Hey, here's what I'm gonna do here, and were you cool with this, only

this amount of money?" Maybe I'd have

Yeah.

like, "You know what?

Fair.

You know, we're in a spot where we wanna play and we need to get out there.

That's fine." But to do it and not tell me about it, and I find out from the

venue that wasn't very cool, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, it's that communication.

be scummy, that's for

Tru-trust but verify, as

Yeah,

we say, you

Yeah.

Trust but verify.

Well, so what has been the most reliable income stream in this business

show-

for you?

uh, shows definitely now and then, like I said, merch really, really helps.

A lot of people, I've know bands, a lot of tribute bands that are like,

"Ah, we ain't messing with merch. We don't have anyone to sell it

or whatever." And it's like, man,

Okay.

of money you're missing out on if you're not doing that.

Um,

That's

you know, I I bought a truck

awesome.

bus for us to travel in,

a year ago, and I wanna say pretty much all of that was paid for by merch money.

So yeah, I mean, it's... It and we still had money to buy other things that year.

You know what I mean?

Like, so it's merch is a huge thing that I think a lot of bands that they

they don't think is important, but it could be a huge revenue stream for you.

Mm-hmm.

Mm. Mm-hmm.

you know, as a tribute band, we have songs on Spotify or whatever, but there's...

I've never seen any money from it.

Maybe there's, in an account somewhere that's, like, five bucks

or something, but I have no idea.

We put all that up through, like, a website called DistroKid and but I've not

seen any, like, finan- you know, there's been, never been an email to me like,

"Hey, cash out I've never seen that.

Yeah.

you know, it, but that, I... The reason why we have the stuff up on there is

just so, like, our fans that enjoyed it, like, you have that album in the back,

like, you can either take a physical product home or you can you can, you

know, pull up Spotify and there we are if you al- also wanna listen to us.

Just a way to keep us in people's minds

Yeah.

thing.

Yep.

Um, yeah, that merch conversation is always... It's an interesting one because

of that perspective like you mentioned, people, they don't wanna deal with it.

They don't wanna mess with it, they don't wanna track it, don't wanna

front the cost for it a lot of times.

And I agree, I think it's important because people like buying stuff.

I mean, I've bought stuff , you know.

Yeah.

Uh, and so it's, I think it's im- important for the band even if you're

not schlepping it around to the shows for some reason, get it on your website.

Yeah.

people buy it on your website.

You- there are tons of resources where you can plug in this, a system

to your website, and you don't even have to handle the inventory,

Yeah.

Yeah, I

And...

we use one of those for our website.

I think it's printful.com, something like that.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

It's really nice.

Like, the order will come in, it immediately pays I think out of

my PayPal to, to Printful to pay to, for them to print the shirt.

And then the rest of the money, like, goes into my...

Something like that.

Goes into my PayPal and then I can cash it out later like the profit.

And then they print the shirt and sh- and ship it off, and you don't

have to worry about anything.

It's kinda nice.

The only problem with that I've noticed is some of the people will come to

our shows and have those shirts, and the quality isn't like if you had,

like, a real screen printer do it or like one you would buy from our show.

So I've been think- So my wife and I, excuse me, when this kinda became

a full-time job for me, I one of the things I wanted to do was start

some other business that I also had that we could also have a revenue

stream and to where maybe my wife wouldn't have to work a full-time job.

She could do something else.

so anyways, we started our own screen printing business,

Oh,

we print all of our shirts.

And then we print a,

yeah.

uh, shirts that's actually where she's at right now.

but anyways, like, I th- I think what we're gonna do is get... When we finally

get caught up, we're gonna, like, p- print

Sure.

some shirts to, like, store at our house to where we can just mail

those off if someone orders them.

Um, because like I

Yeah.

I, I'm, I don't love the quality that I've seen, like, from

Yeah.

Yeah,

But maybe

and

ones that are better, and I just need to research those.

then

but, uh,

it's just another

so.

added component touring, you know, one, one more thing to bring.

But I, yeah I think you would agree, right, it's worth the effort

It

because,

100% because, you know,

yeah

you know, when we first started this band, like, I used to have to buy my own guitar

picks, my own guitar strings, or all the guys in the band would do that, you know?

And now, like, that's all covered by the business.

You know, if we're, we have to fly somewhere that's all

covered by the business.

Like, it's all, it all helps.

The show monies can be good most of the time, and then the merch

money can help with other things.

You know, what...

Mm-hmm.

so many other added costs, like subscriptions every month, you know.

I got QuickBooks.

I've got a storage lot.

I've got, you know, different apps that, you know, ev- b-

where's that gotta, that's gotta come from something, you know?

Yes.

um, so that's kinda like, like, that's why I built that little pot that I'm

kinda talking about, where it's like merch money and a percentage of show money go

into, and that can take care of that.

And if there's a sh- ton of it left over at the end of the year, I have no problem

dispersing that between, you know, the team or the band members or whatever.

It's just the last few years we've been kind of build- Like, we had to buy the

bus I told you about, so there was no money left over at the end of the year.

but yeah, it's just all... it's running it like a business.

A lot of people it's a party.

You know what I mean?

Think it's just

Yeah.

with your friends, and it can be if you want.

That, that's fine.

But

Sure.

run it like a business, it can be a very,

Mm-hmm.

a very good thing for you financially, and you know,

Yeah.

be a, you know, it can... You can make a career out of it.

Yeah.

Well, and you have kind of a unique role in contrast to a lot of bands

out there where you're, you have a whole cr- you know, a whole

team that you're working with.

You're the manager, you know?

And so it's kinda your responsibility to make sure things happen, things

move forward, the money's flowing, the,

Yeah.

Yeah.

get cut, and you know.

Have you run into... I guess, what does that dual role look like for you, and have

you run into... What kinds of potential complications have you run into that,

that people can watch out for maybe?

Um, I'm trying to think of, like...

Yeah.

I think what, I think what being all of those things causes is stress, uh,

Yeah.

depression, anxiety.

But you know, I think at this point I've gotten pretty good at it to where, like,

the way I pay out, like, our shows, I'll wait till the end of the month so

that there's money in the bank in case something happened or, like, our credit

card bill was too high that month or whatever and that way it's covered.

But by the end of that month, there's enough money to pay

everybody and that kind of a thing.

But I try to stay on top of that.

I try to make sure they're all paid, eg- you know, right when I'm... know,

right when they're expecting it.

Like ads, like I have to run all the ads, like that's stressful because

especially if a show's not doing well, you start to blame yourself.

Like, what is wrong?

I didn't set this up right or maybe, you know, how do I make this ad work better?

And sometimes the answer is it's just not working.

I don't know, you know.

Yeah.

just gotta let it ride out and if the show bombs, it bombs.

But that's never what you want, but

Yeah.

Um, you know, yeah, you know, so, maybe in previous lineups of the band, like I

Yeah.

as, um, I like the word leader instead of boss.

You know, a lot of people, I, a lot of people like to be the boss.

I don't wanna be a boss of anybody what I mean?

I'm barely a boss of myself.

So, I try to treat everybody with as much respect as possible and you

know, there's a right way and a wrong way to ask somebody to do something.

I'm sure we've all been there where we've asked someone the wrong way.

But you know, I try to put it in a way that people understand like you

know, "Hey this load out's taking a little longer than it needs to.

Like, can we, you know, can we jump on this and just get this done?

That way as soon as we're done, like we can get out of here, you know?"

Yeah.

wanna ever be like, "Hey, get this done. You're an idiot," you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

get people to work for you like that, you know?

Sure.

and I wouldn't wanna be...

You know, I've worked jobs before where people treated me like I just talked

about, and it's like I, I've, I have no motivation when you treat me like that.

But if

Yeah.

kinda help me understand why we're needing to do what we need to do,

know, maybe I'll work a little harder just to help you out, you know?

So,

Mm-hmm.

um, I try my best at it hopefully, you know, the people on the

team see it that way too, but...

yeah.

Yeah, that's great.

Well, I think you've got a step above the average bear coming into it with all of

these different roles and you've got some wisdom there with the le- understanding

of the difference between leading and even the tyrant we would say, right?

The, the boss

Yeah,

and, and leadership is important, and people follow leaders, and that's what

you need to be successful in the band

100%.

above and beyond cash flow, you know?

That's it.

yeah.

That's it.

Yeah.

So tell us a little bit about where can people find you?

What have you got going on?

You've got a monthly vlog as well.

How's it look?

How are people finding you?

Yeah.

So we have our website thatarenarockshow.com.

We're pretty active on Facebook and Instagram.

you know, you can follow us there and usually our shows are promoted

on both of those or our website.

and yeah, we have a new vlog that we put out.

My my bass player Jack has been editing them, and he's been

doing a really good job, I think.

And we- we've tried to, like, kind of make it like a tour, like a travel

diary in a way, but also have, like, some fun or funny moments in it.

'Cause I like watching those.

Like, I'm a big wrestling fan and I like to watch some, like, wrestlers'

vlogs, and it's just neat to see, like, the behind-the-scenes stuff

or, like, them talk about you know, their travel or whatever.

And it's a side that a lot of people, when they come to your show and they see

this cool show, they leave, they go back to their lives, they don't think about.

So, but if you have enough... You know, if you have some people that are into

what you're doing and they can also see that other side, they're, they...

I think they find it pretty neat.

'Cause we, every time we put it out, there's people that

watch it instantly and, and,

Yeah.

us like, "Dude, this was so cool.

Thanks

Yeah.

you know?

Yeah.

so we like to do that.

It's something fun to put out and we enjoy making them.

Yeah.

and yeah.

So yeah that's pretty much, yeah, YouTube, Instagram, Facebook.

We're on TikTok, but I don't really I really don't post too much on there.

Mm-hmm.

but yeah, we try to stay as seen as possible on, on all the socials.

Yeah.

Yeah, I love the vlog thing because it humanizes you, if you will.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, and it's like, oh, these people are normal just like everybody else,

Yep.

they have a really fun career they're in, you know.

And it-- But it really brings it down to earth, and I think

that's something I always remember my dad taught me growing up.

And he was always like-- 'Cause we would meet basketball players,

and we would meet certain people.

Like he was real big in the NCAA scene and we would meet people

and he always talked about that.

Look,

I don't care how famous they are, they're still humans just like you and me, and

so you need to treat them just like that.

Yeah, yeah.

you know, there's a certain expectation I think people set for

you guys, and it creates a certain level of pressure I think in a way.

And so this stuff like this I always enjoy and appreciate because it really, I think

it creates a connection for your fans.

It does.

Um,

helping them see, oh, he had the same-- I had the same problem last week

yeah.

You know, another thing that I think- putting out those vlogs

has done is, like, really made you probably see it right back there.

There's some artwork.

people will bring us artwork or, like, bracelets or something with our

names on them or something like that.

It's like they, like, they feel like they've got to know us, so they wanna,

Uh-huh.

and stuff.

It's really,

Yeah.

s- really neat.

Yeah.

but like you

Yeah.

it also humanizes us to where people kinda see, like, like what you just

said is like, you see it as one thing.

But, um, they're... we're just like you guys.

We're... I try to tell people all the time, like, we're... we're... If

it's in Cincinnati, we're probably at that show that you're at standing

right next to you, you just don't realize it 'cause we look like this.

Our makeup and hair's not on.

But you know, we're f- we're fans of this stuff just like everyone else.

And, uh,

Yeah.

it's, it's neat that there are fans of what we do, you know?

It's,

Mm-hmm.

it's weird for me to comprehend sometimes, like, like someone drawing

that artwork or whatever, taking, you know, whatever time that took to do, and

Yeah.

bring it to us and give it to us for something.

It's just like... it's, uh, it's incredible.

That's special.

Yeah, it is.

It is.

All right.

Any parting advice for listeners who are getting into this business, who

are starting out who are trying to make it work or who are feeling defeated

right now and like, "I don't-- I've been trying this, but gosh I don't,

I don't see light at-- I-- if there's light at the end of the tunnel, it

might just be a train," you know?

And

That's

we get past that, you know?

Sure.

You know, I... I love about the tribute scene is I have a lot of friends in

other tribute bands, and we all call each other, and we're able to, like,

you know, talk each other off the ledge.

You know,

Yeah.

w- I talked to a guy this morning and and we were talking and he's

like, "Man, my ads aren't working."

I'm like, "Dude, mine aren't either." Like, right now it's just like for

whatever reason, they're not, they're not hitting like I was, you know, was hoping.

And, but, you know, I've noticed it happens about once a year, and it seems

to be, like, in the May timeframe.

So I was kind of explaining that to him and he's like, "Well,

you know, it's really, it's..."

He said I hate that you're also not doing well, but it's comforting to

know that, like, we're both kinda in this together and we're both kinda

experiencing some of the same results." And so I love that, that there's

several other people in tribute bands, and they're all willing to help you.

I have a friend in another one that, uh, completely different genre,

and he's the guy that taught me how to run ads and stuff like that.

I love that.

Uh, but I guess my point with it is, like, um, there's gonna be tough times.

Even when you f- see a band that you think is successful, they're

probably struggling with something.

They're just not, you know, making it known or whatever.

They're not posting about it.

They're not, you know, telling everybody about it.

Yeah, there's gonna be tough times.

What you have to do is if you believe in something you know, make it the

best thing you can, and then make sure that people see it, you know.

Whether it's taking as many opportunities as you can to be seen in front of

people, like shows, whether you're getting paid great or not, or, you know,

betting on yourself where you're running your own ads and taking door deals

just to get those shows and you're...

Now you're advertising and you're making sure that the show's

being promoted in the right way.

Worry about the money later and just con- continually reinvest in yourself

and continually bet on yourself especially if you think that you have

a great product and other people are telling you the same thing, you know.

Definitely reevaluate your situation.

Like, make sure that you have a great product.

Maybe something's lacking and you need to fix it.

but yeah, I mean, just keep going.

If it's something you wanna do and you love and it's kinda your

dream, like, don't give up on it.

Just keep going and eventually, you know, things will start to, to...

you'll realize in five or 10 years, you're like, "Oh, wow, now I'm at

that point where I was wanting to be." You know, it's not overnight

success in a lot of these situations.

It's a lot of work, a lot of travel, a lot of building but it can be done.

You know, I remember when I was in an original band, I was like, "There's

no way to make money in music."

Like, original bands can't make nothing.

I can't imagine there's tons of money in you know, tribute

bands or anything like that.

And you know, I'm... Now this is my full-time job,

so it's definitely possible.

And I've been doing it for a full-time job for, like, three years now.

Yeah.

so it's, it's definitely possible.

It's just amount... working your butt off, you know, and

and getting yourself out there.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah it's s-s-stay in community with those of like mind

Have a mentor.

Have a

and...

and, uh, and have other bands that you can call and run things by

and find people that you trust to tell you, like, "Man, that that

outfit you're wearing is terrible."

Yeah.

know?

Or, you know, "You're singing... Your background vocals

sound horrible on this song.

Yeah.

work on it." You know, find people that

Yeah.

honest and tell you the truth and and y- you know, it'll take you a lot

further than people that are just, you know, telling you what you wanna hear.

Yep.

tell people I don't wanna hear our show's great.

I wanna know what we can fix, you know.

Uh-huh.

Uh-huh.

Yeah.

great.

That's great.

All right, man, I appreciate it.

We always close every episode with what we call final riffs.

This is just a rapid fire one-liner question, just rapid fire answers,

and then we'll wrap it up.

You ready?

Sure

All right.

Funniest thing that's ever happened on stage?

Funniest thing that's ever happened on stage?

Oh, I, uh,

I had a show where I ripped my pants, right in the crotch.

Oh, it's you.

So I'm like mid-song and I run back to, uh... We have a wardrobe lady 'cause

we do a lot of costume changes, and I'm like, "Hey, I need something to like

put on underneath here," 'cause it's just a gaping hole in my crotch area.

So she- we find something, and about halfway through the next song as

I... I kind of put it down my pants just to kinda like, make sure like

my underwear's not, you know, hanging out or something, and that thing

just fell out on, out of the hole.

So,

no.

so, uh, yeah, there was that.

That, that happened.

Knock on wood, I haven't had any like super embarrassing situations

like falling or anything l-

Yeah.

Um, I've had that in previous bands where, you know, you- you've got this great show

and you fall and you look like an idiot.

But but

happens.

uh,

Yeah.

That's funny.

All right.

First concert you ever went to?

Uh, my first concert was Kiss on the Psycho Circus Tour.

I think it was 1999, in Dayton, Ohio.

They were doing like 3D glasses.

I remember that.

You could put those on like during the show, and like the screens,

like their hands would like

Nice.

stuff like that.

It was cool.

Yeah.

Nice, nice.

All right.

Biggest musical influence growing up?

So Kiss.

My dad raised me on... He's a huge Kiss fan, and I you

know, would always watch those.

Like, he would have bootleg VHS tapes from like concerts, and I would

just watch them and just be amazed by it, and I was... I think that's

what, you know, inspired me to like, I wanna do that one day, you know?

And so yeah, I'd have to say Kiss.

They they inspired me to do what I do, and and honestly, the way that they

kinda run their business, I kind of have taken some things like from them.

Mm-hmm.

so yeah, Kiss.

They got a lot going on.

All right.

Non-music hobby or passion of yours?

Non-music.

I love comedy and I love, uh, wrestling.

Wrestling.

I'm a big AEW fan, if you're familiar with wrestling.

WWE's cool, but it's kinda like, it's almost like too mainstream for me.

Like, I love I love the actual like wrestling part of it, and

AEW's really good about that part.

But comedy, I love going to see comedians.

I love, You know, we have a Funny Bone up the street, and you know, sometimes

we'll just go not even knowing who the person is, and it's like what's

the worst thing that's gonna happen?

That's good.

Good

you know, you're gonna laugh, so it's

to me.

That's good.

That's good.

All right, last question.

One city or a venue you'll never forget playing?

Ah.

There's probably, probably several.

I'd have to say, like, my favorite scenery is that pier that we play

in Key West, 'cause you're literally on the pier, you're surrounded by

the ocean, and it's just beautiful.

Nice.

in, and they give you free pina coladas, and it's like loading

in has never been so, uh,

Glamorous.

Right.

and, and it's just beautiful scenery.

And so I love that one, but I also love this place we play in Versailles,

Ohio, called BMI Event Center.

And it almost feels like you're playing an arena, and it's it... Every

time we play there, it's packed, so it's just it's, like, exactly like

how our show is supposed to be you know, felt if you're in the crowd.

A big crowd, everyone's singing along.

It feels like you're in this big room, you know?

That, that's... It's just, like, the perfect thing.

Cool, cool.

All right.

Well, Nikki, that's been a blast.

I appreciate you being on.

Appreciate you pulling back kind of the curtain behind the scenes on some of the

things you've had go on in your career and just... It's fun to hear different

perspectives and the different paths people have taken and just how it's

worked and the things you've learned.

And anyway, so I appreciate you being on and sharing all that.

Yeah, yeah.

Hopefully hopefully it can help somebody, you know?

Yeah, yeah.

to hear other people's situations.

Like, I talk to friends of mine and kinda hear how they run things, and I've... This

is just how I've ran things based off of information I've been given or how I've

seen that it could help us, and but maybe our situation can help somebody else,

Yep, that's great.

All right.

That's Arena Rock Show, guys.

Go check 'em out.

Tour dates and monthly vlog on the road or on their YouTube channel.

We will post links in all of our show notes, so check it out.

So hey, guys, if today's conversation got you thinking about the business

side of your own music career, I'd love to keep that going.

Head on over to 1024wealth.com/music and grab the free guide.

Book a call, and let's talk about building a financial system that

actually fits the way you live and work in the music industry.

I'm Jason K. Powers.

This is the Backstage Money podcast, where music and money collide, and

we will see you guys next time.

Thanks, Nikki.

Yeah.

Thank you.