Our guest for this podcast episode is Dr. Widian Nicola, a Licensed Clinical Social Worker with over 15 years of work experience. She directs Nicola Counseling in New Jersey, as well as working as an Assistant Professor of Graduate Social Work at Seton Hall University. As if that’s not enough, Widian is the Host/Producer of the podcast show, Lived Experience Project. Today she joins us to drop some wisdom on Proverbs 4:23, which encourages us to guard our hearts. Wondering how to do that, and yet still remain open to vulnerable relationships? Listen in to this fun and helpful conversation.

We have to have a reason for guarding our heart. If we don't understand why we're doing it, we're not going to do it.

So if we know that we're doing it because we're meant to be healthy and safe and whole and feel loved and nurtured and taken care of, and if we feel worthy, then we will have a reason to create healthy boundaries to guard our hearts.

Welcome to the Collide Podcast. We're a growing community of everyday chicks colliding with Jesus in our mess, our pain, our joy, and our stories.

We value showing up as we truly are, so that's what you'll find here. Walls and masks being torn down so that we can allow Jesus to meet us where we truly are and hear about other women doing the same.

We can't wait to collide with you.

Welcome to the Collide Podcast.

I'm Willow Weston, the founder and director of Collide, and I am super excited to have Widian Nicola joining me on the podcast. I've known Widian for almost 20 years, which is crazy.

And we met when she was this vibrant young college student back at Western Washington, and I was on staff at a college ministry, and we experienced this amazing Christian community together. And Widian has since gotten her master's of social work and then went on to Rutgers to get her doctorate. So she's a doctor now.

So she has a lot to teach me today.

And what I've always loved about Widian is her passion and heart for Jesus and people, and she merges her love for God so beautifully with her love for others. Jesus shines through this woman and blesses all who share her space. And today you and I get to share space with her.

She's a licensed clinical social worker with over 15 years of work experience, and here, all the way from Jersey to the Pacific Northwest, Widian directs Nicola Counseling.

She's also an assistant professor of graduate social work at Seton Hall University and is host and producer of a podcast show called Lived Experience Project. Widian and I am so excited that you're here live in the flesh on the Collide Podcast.

Thanks for having me. Yeah, I feel so grateful.

Hey, you're hopping on in the middle of this podcast series we're doing on the Proverbs.

And this book of wisdom throws gems at us left and right, and it really feels like if we take hold of these proverbs, our life trajectory will be different than if we choose not to take hold of them. And the proverb that I want to dig into with you today is this one. It says, above all else, guard your heart for everything you do flows from it.

I'm curious, Widian, in the work that you do, how common is it for women to show up feeling wounded because they didn't guard their hearts.

Often? I mean, that. That's the shortest answer I do. You know, and I was thinking about this, this piece of scripture.

I want to just say, just in preface to our conversation, that often what I like to do when I hear the word of God, I like to put it in more modern terms. So when I hear the words guard your heart, I think in more psychological terms, boundaries.

So I like to think about these concepts of how we guard our hearts in terms of that language, because it has everything to do with boundaries, healthy boundaries, how we relate to people, how we expose ourselves to people, both who might criticize us, but also for those people who might love us. And I think. I think about this scripture in terms of that context.

What are some of. Just a few of the common ways women let their guard down and end up getting hurt.

Vulnerability is a necessary way to build and cultivate relationships. But some of the ways in which women do that includes not maintaining some semblance of privacy, oversharing, which can be quite dangerous, and also.

Right.

I mean, if you're sort of telling a stranger everything at the grocery store, somebody that you just met two seconds ago, that could. That can totally be problematic, not being clear about what you want in relationships.

And so if there isn't clarity about what the relationship means or signifies, if it's reciprocal or not reciprocal, we can really set ourselves up to get to getting hurt within relationships as well. So those are a few things that I'm thinking of now.

Yeah, those are really practical. I think most women who are hearing you say that are really like, oh, I do too.

Yeah.

One of the things I wanted to ask you, and I don't know if you feel this way, but when I feel hurt because I somehow didn't guard my heart, maybe I did one of those things in a relationship where I was kind of walking that fine line that you mentioned earlier, where you want to be left. You want to experience friendship or relationship with someone. Um, but somehow it didn't work out. I feel like I often kick myself.

Like, why did I trust them? Why did I divulge that part of my story to someone who ended up not being safe? Why was I vulnerable?

And I'm just wondering, have you ever felt regret for opening your own heart up to Someone that maybe you look back and went, oh, maybe I shouldn't have done that.

That's a good question. Probably. I mean, I'm not thinking of something specifically right now, but definitely, probably.

And I think over the years, as I've gotten a little older, I've recognized the need to be less impulsive in wanting to share everything and the reasons for wanting to do it. I mean, is it for attention, is it for affirmation?

And so the less I'm inclined to need somebody else's reassurance, the less likely I am to overshare. And I think we have to sort of pay attention to intention. Why is it that we're oversharing?

But there are people I think that are less trustworthy than other people who may not be sincere or kind hearted or have the intention of loving you and supporting you. I have a lot of really great friends and some girls nights. But it's a place where I could be truly and fully myself. I'm not like that with everybody.

And can that be. The question is, can that be okay? Can it be okay that you've had.

I've, you know, I've had some times where I've been too vulnerable and not necessarily been hurt, but not. It just sort of felt icky after the fact and that's okay too. So I think that's common for everybody.

How do you define who's a safe person?

What are some kind of characteristics of this would be a safe person that you could maybe start to begin to open up and divulge a little bit more of who you are without feeling so guarded?

Super good question. I mean, I think ultimately we have to trust our gut. And if we're not relying. And what is the gut? The gut is the spirit.

It is the divine presence of that resides within us that that gives us an inclination of things that maybe we can't sort of articulate. So we have to pay attention to that. I don't know if you've ever had any times where you're like, oh, that person doesn't feel saf.

And the other thing.

Yes, yes. Yeah, no, I have to run my own. Yeah, right.

And so you know what I've cultivated over the years is this the art of paying attention more. So one thing to do is just pay attention. How does this person interact?

And I'm not saying judge people or be really nitpicky about something silly that they said that might not otherwise you might not like. But I think paying attention to affect, demeanor, sincerity, authenticity. And here's the Problem. Unless we take a risk, we'll never know. And so.

But the way in which, see, and the words in scripture says guard, meaning that we have an opportunity to do something, meaning that when we take risks, take small risks. That's the way to do it. Take small risks. And the more risks we take, if we feel safe, then we proceed.

Unfortunately, sometimes people will make mistakes with you and hurt your feelings because you've taken a risk, another risk, and another risk. And then, of course, if we're hurt, what are we going to do? We're going to take back everything and say, oh, I shouldn't have trusted this person.

That doesn't necessarily mean that they're not trustworthy. I mean, our. I have a partner.

We've probably hurt each other a number of times, but I continue to take risks to be vulnerable with him because that's what love and companionship and partnership is. So I think trust your gut first and foremost. Tap into it, meaning you pause, pay attention, what's actually there.

Take small, small, small risks until you have the assuredness as much as possible that that person is safe.

I love that charge that you're giving of take small risks. Because over time, if this small risk was okay and safe.

Yeah.

And this small risk and this small risk, next thing you know, you kind of develop this sense that this person has been only safe. You know? Exactly. And you can kind of bank on your history with them. They've been safe after safe after safe after safe.

Because that's one of the things. And I read this proverb, it uses the word guard. Guard your heart.

And I wanted to ask you what some of the healthy ways to guard our hearts are that don't look like these giant walls people have to climb. Because we've all met those chicks who. And I've probably been those chicks in different moments of my life.

In fact, I know I have, especially with a few certain characters where, you know, we put these walls up, or people have these walls up and they're so big no one can climb them. I mean, they're. They're like erected so tall so that no one can get in. And I don't think that's what this proverb is not at all to do.

So, like, what are some healthy ways that we can guard our heart?

Yeah, I mean, I think the one. And this. This may sound impractical, but. But bear with me here. We have to have a reason for guarding our heart.

If we don't understand why we're doing it, we're not going to do It.

So if we know that we're doing it because we're meant to be healthy and safe and whole and feel loved and nurtured and taken care of, and if we feel worthy, then we will have a reason to create healthy boundaries to guard our hearts.

If we don't think we're worth it, if we don't think that we're lovable, if we don't think that it's okay for us to have boundaries and that it's not okay for people to hurt us, it's. It's a less likelihood to create those healthy boundaries. So, healthy ways to guard our hearts.

It has to start with us with cultivating the practice of being still of self, compassion, of feeling the worthiness and love of God that, you know, that many of us can do and have experience. And the other thing is to just to pay attention. Practically speaking, who are you sharing everything with? Who are you talking to?

Why are you talking to everyone and their mother? Are you saying yes to everyone and their mother about things that you don't have time for, you don't have the energy for?

So being thoughtful and when you say yes, being considerate of the people you relate to, people that you connect with, that's also really, really important. I know. I. I'm not suggesting only be friends with holy people because that's nuts. That, I mean, that doesn't. Yeah. Who.

Who the heck is. Where are you?

Yeah, that's nuts because we're all right. We all have suffering, we all have brokenness, we all have wounds. But.

But be careful who you spend time with and how much of that energy you're taking on. Again, I'm not saying disown people, but sometimes we do outgrow relationships that are healthy.

And if we don't recognize that and we don't take that bold, courageous step of moving forward to cultivate healthy relationships, then we miss out on really meaningful ways of connecting.

I like how you put. We sometimes outgrow relationships because I think what happens when that's naturally happening is that we often put the blame on ourselves or them.

We can't just outgrow a relationship. We have to somehow go, it's all my fault that this happened, or it's all their fault that this happened.

And some, instead of going, there are friendships for a season and a time.

Totally. And there's no. I mean that. That's the construct that we live in, which is that it's either right or wrong.

I'm doing something right or I'm doing something wrong. And Blame, obviously, as you're suggesting, plays a role.

The reality is, when it comes to relationships, it's an energetic flow, and sometimes the energy and the vibration exists, and there's a palpable sense of love and inspiration and nurturing, and sometimes it doesn't feed you. Again, if you haven't talked to a friend in, you know, four or five years, I'm not saying don't ever talk to them again. That's bizarre.

Don't take witty and wrong.

Don't ever do that. No, but I think you're right. The way to switch the paradigm is to say, yeah, relationships come and go. You know, it comes and goes.

The tree never says to the leaf, why are you leaving me during the fall? It just withers and goes to the ground. That's just sort of the natural cycle of life. That's the character of God, is growth, death rising?

Growth, death.

Right. Like, there's. There's sort of a cyclical process, and relationships are the same. Not all relationships.

Some you'll have for a lifetime time, and others temporary.

It's interesting that you say that, and I really like that illustration, and I think it gives us freedom to be okay when things shift.

But I also wonder, how are we to know when saying, oh, relationships just shift, and this one's dying versus, like, being willing to enter into the mess and the mire totally and fight for doing the right thing.

Fight for, like, what does it look like for me to love humanity and in the midst of their, you know, stubborn, prideful hearts that mess up and let me down, and they do the same for me, you know, I think that whole, like, relationship shift and grow and people do kind of like the slow fade, like, oh, this one, it's that leaf. It's coming from the tree.

And sometimes I think that's really true and freeing, but other times, like, is that just our excuse to not have to do the hard work?

Yeah, that's such a. That's such a good question. I always go back, you know what my. My compass is for that or sort of my starting point. Is this the acronym fog?

Am I doing this? Am I leaving because of fear? Am I staying because of fear? Am I staying because of obligation? Or am I staying because of guilt?

So, oh, this person has no other friends. And Jesus called me to come and minister to this friend. There's no one else around. I have to do this. But it could really be.

You could be cultivating a codependent relationship, quite frankly.

So for me, if it feels like the spirit of the Relationship is not just about me growing and stretching and expanding my sense of love and compassion and empathy as. As I'm meant to do. That's the whole point of God. Then. Then I know it's something else. Right. And that works for me.

I'm not sure that that'll work for everybody, but if we just pause for a moment and say, why am I. Why am I staying in this relationship? It's not proven to be fruitful. Nothing is changing. It's. It's probably a good sign.

Those are good questions. I also like that you asked the question, why am I leaving? Am I leaving out of fear?

Like, I don't want to have a confrontational conversation where I do have to maybe take a risk to be a little bit vulnerable. Yeah, right. Those are really good questions to ask. I.

You.

You know, you asked me before we went live on. On the podcast how I'm doing with sort of everything that's going on with Clyde. And I won't get into all that.

I told you, but one of the things I did tell you, which I will say here, is that as.

As everything has kind of grown around here, I've kind of learned that I've had to find a safe sort of concentric circle of very few small, trusted people that I can share, like, my innermost stuff with. And that circle used to be bigger, but I've had to kind of make it smaller for safety sakes.

And that's been really weird for me because I am kind of like a tmi here's Everything person. But I had someone explain to me that we have these sort of, and I want to hear your thoughts on it, that we have these.

Our relationships live in these concentric circles.

And if there was a whiteboard and we could all see it, I drive dry this giant large circle of those are kind of like your acquaintances and, I don't know, your third cousins and your co workers. And then there's another circle within that circle, and those are maybe like your social circle.

Like you go grab, you know, some cocktails at a happy hour once a month or a book club or something like that. But then that in most circle is like, just a few trusted people that you can kind of divulge your.

Your treasures, you know, your sacred stuff to them. And I. I guess I'm just curious from you, Doc, Dr. Whitty. Doc, how do we know who we can open our hearts up to and who we can.

And who should be in that kind of like, inmost concentric circle?

Yeah, that's Such. I mean, that's a hard. I mean, it's.

It's a hard question because I think, just to back up a little bit, you're recognizing that that's a necessary part of how you exist now in the world. That before, you had an expanded sense of who needed to be included in knowing a million aspects of your life.

And as you have more and more experiences where that it doesn't feel safe anymore, you're really recognizing, I need to guard. I need to guard my heart. I need to guard what feels important to me. Because you could again, be exposing yourself up to all kinds of risks.

Risks and dangers of being hurt and criticized and judged. But so that's. First is we need to recognize that we need that. And if we don't recognize that, then, no, the pattern's not going to shift.

Right. Because we're out in the third circle. Hey, let me tell you about my deepest insecurity. People are like, yes. Putting it on Instagram.

Yeah. With really. And people do this because they think they're being vulnerable. Vulnerable and authentic and real. And that to some degree is.

But it's also really, really dangerous, I think. And having boundaries and being a bit more private doesn't mean you're inauthentic, and it means that you're just as genuine, just as.

Just as you are. Right. There's no need to confuse that bigness or loudness actually means more vulnerability and more authenticity. It just doesn't.

It doesn't work that way. And so I think a. Acknowledging the fact that you don't need to scream, you're.

If you're using it to, to help people and in a meaningful, intentional way, that. That makes sense. Right? You're. You're in ministry. You share some of the struggles that you.

That you have because you're drawing an audience and you're making connections and you're. There's a point to it. So I don't, I don't. Honestly, I don't know the answer to how do we know?

Again, it just goes back to our earlier questions, which is take small risks with people. And the ones that you've known, it doesn't have to be your lifelong friends that you've known for four years, because that's. Not everyone has those.

But the ones that you feel intimately connected to and you're drawn to and the relationship. This, this is, this is a key piece if the relationship's reciprocal. And I don't mean reciprocal like, I.

Got you a gift.

You bake cookies for me, right? Oh, that would be awesome. I want that kind of friendship with you. But. But there's some reciprocity there, right?

Like there's a loving, gentle kindness, but it's between you and that person and it's vice versa.

They're not, you know, you go to them as well and you offer your love and your guidance and your support and, and there's very few people that you can have that with. And I think that's probably more your inner circle than, than anybody else.

And I do go back to what you said earlier, which I think is so key is you won't actually know if someone can be that person for you until you take risks.

Yeah.

One thing you said, which is interesting is you, you said something about you, you want to be really real, but in certain spaces it can be really, really dangerous. And I actually wrote when real is really dangerous, you should really find another place to do it. To do it, you know, like excellent.

You're saying like we're called to be real. Not.

That was one of the things I was thinking as I was thinking about talking to you today was this wisdom in this proverb seems to be about boundaries. But how do we kind of have these guards without not completely like pooping on vulnerability, intimacy and authenticity?

Because those are huge values of mine, but because they are.

That's what's kind of left me feeling a little naked when I walked away from the relationships that maybe did have the slow fade and transitioned out.

Right.

Is there a level in your mind of over guarding?

Like how, how can you help someone recognize when they're over guarded and they wonder why they're not experiencing life giving relationships and intimacy?

Right. Intimate really? That's a good point.

Well, I mean not to be too cliche about this, but the life of Jesus gives us a beautiful perspective on that answer. He when he was getting ready to be crucified, he didn't tell the millions and, or thousands and hundreds of people that he administered to.

He told his small group of companions he was vulnerable, he was weak, he was suffering.

And, and I think we're called to a similar type of relationships that are both really intimate, meaningful, small, but, but stretch outward as well beyond that. So how did he determine that part? Purpose. What was his purpose when he was, when he was speaking to the masses? He was there to minister.

So I think what is our intention? Clarifying your intention is a good place to start. So I have a lot of young women that I mentor. That's my role. So that helps me clarify the boundary.

So that's an answer to sort of the first part. The other part is, you're right, there are women who have really, really tall and thick walls.

It's not, it's one or the other, which as you're saying is dangerous because then they don't get to. There's no door coming in, there's also nothing coming out. Part of the work for those women is to recognize that first and foremost I have a wall.

I've been hurt a thousand times in my life. Childhood, old relationships, friendships, whatever they may be, that recognition is huge. And then the question is, do you want that to change?

And if you want it to change, then of course I'm a therapist. So I'm all about people going to therapy, go to therapy or begin small risks again, right? Can I trust this person?

What does it mean to identify my feelings, share that with someone, take an opportunity to be my full authentic self with, with one person only. These aren't leaps. We're not, I mean to take leaps and bounds to do this is really. That could be way too painful. It's that, that's not healthy.

That it's. If it happened, if the pain, if the pain strengthened incrementally, then it will, it, the healing will also be incremental.

So I think for those women, small, small baby steps. Who's the one person you could trust in your life? Make an effort, make it, make a pact with yourself and say, I cannot live like this anymore.

I'm hurting. I can't live life by myself anymore.

What about women who don't see that they're over guarding?

What are some good ways for them to kind of have self reflection or self awareness or help them see their blind spots that they can't see, that they're coming across as cold or shallow or distant from people. And all of that is probably self protective mechanism because they're afraid to get hurt. But what if they can't see it?

How do we ask ourselves questions so that we can properly see how we're coming across to other people?

That is such a hard question. We don't know what we don't know, right?

So if you don't know that you're like this, how will you know that you could, that you could even discover what to do with it? Again, I'm a huge, huge advocate of space and time and reflection. And pausing meditation helps significantly.

There's a lot of guided Christian meditations too out there where it cultivates itself, sense of stillness where we can at least be vulnerable with God. We can at least Be vulnerable in our own place. And so that's the first place to discover it. No one else is going to see it. I'm sure I have that.

Even you. You and I are very, very out. You know, we're. We're not just outspoken, but we are social and talk to everybody and love everyone for the most part.

Love everyone.

But.

But even you call me out right now.

Yeah, but even you have your blind spots, as you're suggesting, or shadow. You know, we all have shadow sides.

But.

But I think pause. It's always, always intimate pause. It has to be.

Yeah, I think that's so important. I also wonder, you know, in the pause, are we asking ourselves the right questions?

Because I think if we're wondering, why is this keeping a theme, that people aren't reaching out or engaging me and I'm alone, or why is this. I mean, I'm just trying to think of questions that people could ask themselves.

Like, you know, I think being able to go to someone and say, how do you perceive me? Or what sort of energy am I bringing the table when I come into this space? Or do I look like my open sign is up?

Or am I giving a close sign, like, being brave to maybe ask some of those questions.

Because I don't know if we see ourselves clearly sometimes, and if we want to, it's going to take some uncovering some things that maybe we don't want to know. But once we uncover those things, then that's when God can get in and really trust. Change us.

Absolutely. And you're. That's such a good point, Willow.

Because if we do that on our own terms, then we feel empowered to fix, for lack of a better term, those things. If. If we don't.

If we're not doing it intentionally, those things will get uncovered in really nasty conversations, like, you're this and you're that, and I can't believe this about you, and you don't know this about yourself, but you're always like this.

Right?

That's not happening on our terms. They're darts and arrows that get pierced into our hearts. So why not do it? Why not do it ourselves?

You know, try to create some kind of congruency between who we think we are and how. What. What we're actually conveying to the world. You're right. It takes a lot of boldness. It takes a lot of courage to ask, but why not? Why not do it?

Yeah. Well, you're right. If. If you don't ask those questions of yourself or have accounts. Counselor.

Yeah.

A Trusted counselor asking you these questions like why do you continue to have this theme in your relationships? Or whatever deep questions need to be asked of you. Life will ask those questions of you. You'll have an employee review that you did not love.

You'll have a friendship breakup. You'll have, you know, a spouse who's just stopped talking to you for two days. You know, it'll just come out sideways.

It's going to. And it's always catches up with us. Always. It's because it resides within us. It's going to come out.

Ultimately, you know, we're talking about this, guarding our heart. We're talking a lot about it in terms of relationships. But what else gets the best of our hearts?

Ourselves. The relationship with you we have with ourselves.

Meaning that if, if we don't, if we're not careful about the ideas we're consuming about who we are and what we're supposed to do in the world, then we, we hurt ourselves in the end because then we strive to, to maintain a certain image of perfection, of success.

And so we're guarding our hearts against, you know, toxic relationships, but also ideas, misconceptions, false notions about worthiness, about love, about purpose, about literally anything about difference. You know, the world is relatively divisive, right? There's a lot of pain and suffering and division right now. What kind of ideas are we consuming?

We have to guard our hearts to these what feel like really toxic ideas about you being different than me just because you're white or you're black or you're an immigrant or you're a woman, whatever the case may be. Those are ideas where our hearts can truly become hardened. They can become so hard that we miss the opportunity to experience compassion and love.

And so, so it's like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. We're the ones drinking the poison. When we, right when we're judging or we're being critical and nasty.

You know, we have to, we have to really be careful what we're consuming on a daily basis. And especially for young women, they're consuming images of what the ideal woman looks like. I'm talking about physical looks like.

I mean, I see, I see clients who struggle with anorexia and bulimia and depression. Moms who want careers but are told that it's not okay for them.

They're bad moms because they have full time jobs or what, that they're purpose filled, they're giving of their giftedness to the world. Can they not have a life that's purpose Filled.

So we again, I think young women particularly consume aspects of what it means to be beautiful from the world around. Since birth. Since birth. And I think we really have to be careful about those things.

Yeah, I mean I'm going to sound like a grandma right now, but just I'm listening to you and I'm thinking, thinking, that's so good. Like what are we allowing our. What ideas are we consuming?

Because what it's almost making me think of is like I'm picturing this heart and our hearts just out here and we're just pouring. Like when I picture just every family in every house and they're just staring, just scrolling through their phones for hours. Hours a day.

For hours a day, just consuming every image, every voice that's louder than God's voice telling us who we are. And we start to believe who we should be and we start comparing and it's like we're just consuming all of that.

Like it's going deep within our hearts and on a cellular level. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which is extremely dangerous.

That's.

That's a good word. I.

Sorry, you said something really important. You use the word comparing. And the more we have access to all these images, the more or other people who have sort of succeeded.

So there's, there's this term quote I read recently that says you can't be what you can't see. And that's quite beautiful. Right.

If you're a young girl who isn't, doesn't grow up in a home where her, her art is appreciated and she's not allowed to dance because that's not going to make her any money and she doesn't. But she sees older people who are doing really magnificent things, women in positions where they are successful.

She then can cultivate a sense of imagination to create that reality. To see that whatever has been embedded in her by God is possible. And I think the opposite is also true.

That not only can seeing success be really inspiring, it can really open our, it can open us up to comparison. And so then we self loathe and we are more critical. And so the cycle continues. Now we have to work harder.

Now we have to try this, to diet or that, to lose weight or do whatever. And at the end of the day, what's it really about?

It's about the fact that we think that maybe inherently something is wrong with us or that we are not enough. Well, the reality is that we're enough. So we have to really guard our hearts to. So that we don't fall prey to these Types of lies. They're just lies.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's good.

I want to go back and talk about something you brought up earlier, which is this mutuality in relationships and how it ties in with guarding your heart. Because I feel like there's this sort of game going on in our heads and it sort of feels like we are going, hey, if you get naked, I'll get naked.

Like this head game of if you take a risk, I'll take a risk. If you invite, I'll invite. If you share, I'll share. Oh, they didn't say sorry, so I went, I won't say sorry.

Like we're looking for the other person to lead the charge in taking the risk. And most of us are risk averse.

So if we never take risks to lead vulnerably and relationship, then it seems like that would land us on some pretty shallow and stagnant surfacey, like relationships. What is that head game we're doing with people where we'll unguard our heart a little and let them in?

If they kind of do that tit for tat thing of like, they met us, right, In a way that we met them or they led the way, they have to be the one to do it first.

You know what that is? It's a part of us that feels really unsafe. And so it attempts to control and predict when we can ourselves become vulnerable.

Okay, I'll only do it like this or only do. That's not, that's not, that's not divinity. That's not the love of God. That's some sort of immature approach to authentic encounter. You may collide.

I love the word collide. I use the word encounter, right? When we encounter God, would we encounter other people?

When we encounter our full authentic selves, we don't have to play those games. So the question is, what is that part? That's, that's playing this game and that part.

I always say that these parts of us that get triggered, we sort of get hijacked, right? You're like, whoa, that felt like I was, you know, 17 years old again. I call them good friends that give bad advice.

They're just, they're, they mean well, right? They're, they're protective. They want to make sure everything's okay. It's doing, you know, this part is doing in a really sort of bizarre way.

It's, it's attempting to make sure that, okay, yeah, if I play this game, I'll take. Oh, but that's not, that's not a centered place to come from.

Again, we need to re realign ourselves with divine love and with the voice of God and the Spirit.

There's this sort of probably neurotic over analytic side of me for sure, which is, this is fun. We can just do this publicly. But I. I don't think I'm the only one.

I might be the only one to admit it, but like, I feel like I. I can walk away from relational experiences looking be met in the way that I gave. And then that just sort of sets me up for disappointment or unmet expectations.

And yet there is a healthy aspect of being in relationships where there is mutuality and give and take. And if you're in one where it's give, give, give and or take, take, take, and you're just the one giving, like, that's unhealthy too.

So yeah, it shouldn't be tit for tat.

But at the same time, like, how do you know this relationship has this healthy mutuality for those of us who maybe didn't have that growing up and are trying to figure out, what does it look like to have a healthy relationship where there's mutual give and take?

That's a really good question. So the quick answer in my head, the thing that comes up for me is, are you empty or are you full?

There are times we're going to give of ourselves, but are we giving of ourselves so much so that our tank is completely empty or our bank account is completely empty, or is it fulfilling and life giving? And if you use that as a meter, a starting point to say, is this friendship? Am I doing this?

And every time I continue to invest, I go broke at the end of the day, then that's probably a good indicator.

It may not be a mutually helpful, loving, inspiring relationship, but if I'm not suggesting all your friends need to inspire you and make your cup run over, because that's bizarre.

But. Right.

Like, do you leave thinking, that didn't go well, that was ugly. Or I feel depleted. Or if you leave thinking, oh, that was amazing. Not every, obviously, Willow. Not every time.

I see, like, let's say you just woke up and you came back from a run or doing whatever, and you're.

Like, oh, I'd actually be dead.

Yeah, fair enough. But you just didn't have time, right? And that's fine. But I don't leave when I see you thinking, oh, God, it's her again, right?

Like, we have to pay attention to these, like, impulses that we have. These crazy reactions that come up. They're there for a reason. They're meant to sort of help us be guides.

So.

And again, I go back to this. Are you. What. What is this? What is the purpose of this relationship and this friendship?

Yeah. When you have people that come into your office and you hear them playing these head games with other people, what are your. Like, what are your.

Hey, do you see what you're doing here? I mean, what are some of the head games that we play in relationship? Like, top three head games don't do kind of a thing.

That's really good. That's really. Can I just say this too, in terms of head game, we also do this with family.

I mean, we're talking about friendship and, you know, maybe romantic relationships, but this stuff happens in families where we come from toxic families. That there is such a thing as adult divorce from family.

Meaning that children who grew up in a really toxic, painful, maybe even traumatizing backgrounds will divorce their parents, so to speak. Right. They will cut them off. I mean, it's. It could be really severe.

But sometimes you can't heal unless you do that because there's a constant reinforcement of those. Those triggers. And sometimes it could be really unhealthy. I'm not suggesting everyone who has any issues with their parents divorce them. That's.

I'm talking about extremes, right? So. So crazy head games that we play with ourselves when we make it all about us. That's one thing.

Oh, you know, I saw this person and they didn't seem to be doing too well. Oh, that's about me. I must have said something wrong. Oh, my gosh. Now I have to make it up to them. Why don't you just ask, right?

Like, your friend could have just really had a bad day and their toe hurts, right? Like, or they just had a really good crappy cup of coffee. You never know. But, like, not that that would upset anyone. That.

I mean, maybe in Washington state, but. But that's the other thing. We make it all about ourselves. Clarify, communicate, ask the question, right?

Why is it always have to be about you having done something wrong? And again, this stuff doesn't just develop in adulthood. It's probably been reinforced throughout life. So that's one thing I can think of. What else?

Seeking attention over and over again in ways that don't help and don't work. Right? So if you are. If you want love from someone. So in couples therapy, we call it making a bid.

If your partner comes to you and says something, it's, you know, like, hey, I wonder if we could hang out tonight, but you're like super busy. And your partner's like, hey, you have a few minutes, but you're busy. Your partner is making a small bid, just asking, attempting to connect.

Sometimes what happens is if that met is un or that need is unmet. Passive aggressiveness plays a role. I see passive aggressiveness all the time where couples are very sarcastic towards each other and mean.

I do see those patterns sometimes even in friendships. And that could be really quite painful.

The other thing is using humor to, to as a sort of a deflection that, that's also something to look for, these patterns like, well, what's that about? That you, you know, there's a serious moment that you can cultivate connection with someone, but you're, you know, it's a joke, right?

It's just a humor for you, right?

Yeah. You're literally wiping out some people's entire communication toolbox right now.

Sorry folks.

Sorry, folks.

We're attempting to help you. Wake up.

Jesus backed up this idea of guard your heart in Luke, where he says, a good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of. In a sense, Jesus here was saying the heart sort of burns your life's fruit.

And if you give your heart away and it's full of wounds, your fruit will end up being, you know, the bleeding that's going on in your life. Unless you get some healing or if your heart gets bitter because of breakups, you'll grow bitter fruit.

Or if your heart's so open for business, for everybody and anybody to come in and take over it, then what do you have left to give away? So whitty, and I'm wondering, what do you think about Jesus colliding with people in the New Testament as you watch him do that?

How do you see him speaking to humans about the state of their hearts?

That's really good. So, so you again, you use the word collide. I use the word encounter.

Yeah.

So I, I think of the word encounter as comprising of three things. One is contact, two is compassion, and three is care.

So when we want a true collision with the love of God and the love outside and within us, we have to. We have to take the necessary step of making contact with God, with our. With the self, with the.

With the parts of us that are unhealed, that are wounded, that we don't want to touch or even get close to. The other thing is to cultivate a sense of Compassion for those things. They're there, they exist.

God gave us the mechanisms to dissociate, even though they're not healthy. And often we all grow these old patterns, but we have to cultivate that sense.

That's where the healing happens, is when we can sense the love poured into our hearts by God. And the third thing is to take care of it, to take care of each other, to be caring, to go to therapy, to talk to friends, to do whatever it takes.

I mean, and quite frankly, this, as we're talking, this is on a broad level, right? So how do we, how do we do these things with the people around us, with the world that we live in? Because we do have a.

We have a purpose beyond just our neighborhood or our small community. We have, we have a responsibility. We been given so much privilege. I mean, we're Americans for goodness sake. We have so much.

But healthy boundaries helps us keep out the things that are toxic, but not only consume the good things, but fill up in such a way that we could pour it out in measures we can't even imagine. So again, part of the work is to be really, truly self reflective and take that courage. The word.

Yeah, the word courage comes from the Latin root cur, meaning heart. So it's like, it's, it's being wholehearted.

Right?

So being courageous, really, it's not just like, oh, I'm brave. It's really being wholehearted in the way in which we approach ourselves and other people.

But being wholehearted is also being really careful and having healthy boundaries, which obviously is what we've been talking about, talking about all day.

Yeah, I love the idea of allowing God to have contact with. I always talk about our heart almost like it's this house and we like got into some of the rooms.

Like, we'll let him into the living room, but not the bedroom. Or we'll let him into the bedroom in the living room, but not the bathroom or not the kitchen.

Like, there's all these sort of like rooms in our lives where, you know, when you talk about the word courage and per meaning heart and being wholehearted, we often let him into parts of our heart, but not our whole heart. And part of what needs to take place, how healing takes place, is if your hearts become bitter, let him into that room.

If your hearts become lustful, let him into that room. If your hearts become hateful or greedy, let him into that space.

But so often we're like, no, you can be in the pretty cleaned up room that I, you know, set the table for. You here. But through all the crap and all the other things, Right. Yeah. Yeah. We kind of hide parts of ourselves.

And I love the idea that you're suggesting those parts can't be made home. Yes. You invite God into the space.

And the irony is. Yes. What you're saying is so brilliant because the irony is God already has access to those things. Things.

And maybe what we fear most is seeing that within ourselves and more importantly, allowing God to love us. Why? I mean, I think we're scared of that. There's some kind of fear that holds us back from not only attempting to expose ourselves.

And you know, a lot of women experience shame, right? I don't. And feeling embarrassed. But God already has access to those things.

What God wants is to be able to have access so that you can see that you are loved despite or in spite of those things.

Well, and he's really suggesting if you don't deal with what's going on in your heart, it's going to come out sideways. Negative fruit in your life.

Totally.

And that is really Him. It feels like saying he's 100% faithful. He's here, he's present, he's consistent. He's never forsaking, never betraying, never going anywhere.

He is the safest concentric circle that we can come to. He's our refuge or hiding place, our rock. And that's right, really a vulnerable and intimate relationship that he's inviting us into.

For those of us that are really afraid of that kind of intimacy and vulnerability, what would be your advice on how to take the first step into saying, yes, I want that kind of relationship with God? I'm just not sure I even know how to do it with anyone.

Yeah. That's such a moving question. It almost tears me up thinking about it, Willow.

Because there's people like that all over the world who are disconnected. And the all Jesus came to unify. Right. That was his message, is to unify us with the love of God the Father. And so God only wants unity.

God only wants intimate connections. And the idea that people are isolated or alienated from that is really, really sad. It's quite sad.

It's tough if people are afraid of that Collision, that encounter. Try to experience the love of God through other people. Ask for more of it. Drench yourself in it. Go do service. Go work at the soup kitchen.

God resides there. There's so much healing there. Again, take a small risk.

I think that that's probably the takeaway is take a small risk, whatever that means sitting still for five minutes, saying out loud, I need. I need nourishment. I'm scared. I'm worried. And the reality is the love we're chasing is already chasing us.

So if you're gonna chase it, you'll find it's already there. I mean, it's already there. That's the irony of it all. And if it's really troublesome and painful, go to therapy. That is a safe place to do it.

It's a very, very safe place to do it.

Yeah, I think as you're talking to. You know, you mentioned feeling emotional about that question, because there's people who don't know how to do it.

I also think there's people who think they have it nailed down, this God thing nailed down, but they actually don't know how to do the God thing in a very, like, relational, intimate way. But they have all the facts and figures about God nailed down.

I had an experience with a woman who I met, and I've probably shared this before, but I was on my way to the bathroom at our old office, and I met her in the hallway of this, you know, downtown business building. And next thing you know, she's opening up her whole story.

And I invite her into my office, and we're sitting there, and she's, you know, sobbing and basically feeling like her whole life's a mess. Her kids are a mess, her husband's not talking to her, sleeping in another bedroom, all of this stuff. And she's like, I don't know how to do this.

Like, I don't know how to let God into this mess.

And I've known him for 30 years, so I do feel like there's this aspect of, like, yeah, there's people who are Christians and they do church and all that stuff, but letting God into those, like, really ugly, messy spaces. I don't know. I don't know an answer.

I'm just thinking as we're talking that part of it is because I remember looking at her and saying, you're doing it right now. Let's invite him in.

Perfect.

And, like, we held hands in this office and just said, God, come into the mess. I think part of it is, is if we want A intimate, vulnerable relationship with a God who says, I am your safest concentric circle.

But we've never experienced safety or we're afraid to be vulnerable. Maybe it starts by just turning our face in his direction and saying, I want that and I don't know how to do it.

Will you help me even if it hurts? Yeah.

And maybe that's the risk.

That is the risk. That's the time.

If someone's heart is broken and their spirit is crushed, what do you think it looks like for them to come near to God in that place and ask him to rescue them? Because I think there are some people listening right now who feel like, hey, I took.

I. I did like, I mean, I even have a relationship like that where, yeah, I took those small little risks and it seemed safe, seem safe, seem safe. And then years down the road, it all of a sudden wasn't safe and just like, broke me up.

Yeah, I've, you know, I felt like that with God just recently. A couple years ago. I. I don't remember a time in my life where I didn't pray. Ever since I was a child. I don't remember a time that I would do.

I wasn't reading my Bible every day as a kid. Like, throughout my entire life, God always, always was my safe, my safe haven. I always felt special. I always felt love.

And when I encountered suffering to a degree that I couldn't bear anymore, I felt betrayed by God. Right. Because I had taken a thousand million risks to allow myself to fully be surrendered and vulnerable to God.

And God was showing me a different reality where God allowed suffering in such a way that was so painful. And part of it is I could just say, right? I mean, if it's really hurtful, then obviously I can't go back.

But if it's hurtful and we recognize that we're all, you know, we're all unwell in some way, shape or form, and we're all going to hurt each other at some point, then we go back and we mend and we repair and we talk through things.

But.

Part of the work, for me to get back in right relationship with God meant that I was like, okay, I'm back. I need to take small risks. I can't. I can't just be completely alienated and angry.

So, you know, if it's, if it's a healthy relationship worth fighting for, then that's a lesson in. And of itself.

God's forgiveness of how I forgive, of who I am as a person, of the weaknesses of my need to get help from someone outside of myself, it's hard. It's hard. Being human is really hard. It's so. I sometimes, like, what the heck? This is hard.

It is hard sometimes. It's so hard. I love, though, that picture of, I don't love this, I don't love that.

Our automatic response sometimes stating, hurt, you were hurt, you automatically put your guards up with God, totally. And he's like, I'm the most safe place. And you're like, nope, can't come in. Can't climb it. No one's getting in.

But that risk of letting that down in a relationship, that's worth fighting for, whether it's in your marriage, friendship, or someone you're dating or family. And saying, this is worth fighting for.

And I'm not going to allow this pain to make me so guarded that no one can get in, because then I'm going to experience the exact opposite of what I long for, which is relationship. And one of my favorite things about Jesus is that he seems to be all about restoration. And I know that's a huge part of what you do.

I love what you do in the world.

And I'm wondering if you have any advice for people who need to take that initial first brave step of saying, hey, there's some restoration that needs to take place in my life. What should they do?

Right now, literally, they're listening to this podcast. When you ask this question, pause it and say, I need help. It's very simple. That's practically speaking. Just ask.

The second piece is to say, I'm ready. I need to do this.

And the third piece is to actually take that step, be courageous enough to move in the direction of healing, move in the direction of love and restoration and repair. And that could mean calling someone.

I.

People are available. I remember the first time I went to therapy. I also. I was sort of at my wit's end.

I was already desperate because I hadn't addressed anything for most of my life. Willow. Like, I mean, I'm sure most people, but I just had to. And it was. And the first therapist I had was horrible. Not as a human, but just.

We just didn't. She was a horrible. She's listening right now going, no, she's definitely not listening. She should. I'm kidding. But it was just not.

It wasn't a good fit. And so it just happened to be this woman. A colleague of mine said, oh, we've been going to this therapist who is in Philly and I live in Jersey.

Right. So it's an hour, if not more every Monday night at 5 o' clock in traffic that I would go see her week in, week out.

Week in, week out, weekend, week out. And. And she was part of the reason, aside from the fact that I have a very good relationship from my spiritual director.

But I took the step and I said, I don't care how much it costs. I don't care how much time it was. I need to do this for me because I don't know, I guess it just desperation makes you do crazy things.

So for anybody who's listening, just stop, pause, say, you know what, recognize I need help. And there's definitely ways. Call Kolide. I'm sure they'll give you some. Some great resources to get you on your way. So true. Yeah.

Saying yes to healing is hard, but saying no is even harder.

100%. 100%. Why live in misery? There's no reason for it.

Yeah. Especially cares in the after dysfunctional patterns. So true. Thank you for hanging out with.

Hanging out with.

I just love you and I'm so proud of you and what God has done in your life. And next time it's my turn to be in Jersey and hang out on your podcast. How can people connect with you?

Well, just google my name and there's plenty of ways. Right. I'm on the first page of Google but you know, I should have social media, but I really don't do social media well.

But I have an email my name put in nicola1mail.com anyone can get a hold of me there, find my business and just email me. That's awesome.

Yeah, I love it. Hey guys, thank you for hanging out with us today.

You can also check out Collide and if you want information on what it looks like to get help and healing, we will help you out with that. So check out our website at wecollide.net and we're also on Instagram @wecolide and on Facebook is Collide Women. And we would love to connect with you.

And if this podcast blessed you in some way and you want to share it with a friend that you think might be blessed by it, we'd love for you to do that. And we'll catch you next week. Take care.