Note: This is part two of a special two-part crossover episode! You can listen to the episodes in whatever order you like. Make sure to check out part one, Pauly's interview with Emily about her journey as an entrepreneur, on The Pauly Guglielmo Show. The episode should be available for you to download right in the It's a Lot feed!

Content warning: this episode contains discussion of infertility, miscarriage, and IVF. If those are sensitive topics for you, please take care when listening. If you'd like to skip that part, it starts around the 27 minute mark and ends around 39 minutes.

Food entrepreneur, podcaster, and dad of two Pauly Guglielmo joins host Emily Hessney Lynch for a conversation about running a business while raising kids, paternity leave struggles, childhood trauma, how we're trying not to traumatize our own kids, and more. We also discuss his and his wife's experience with infertility, miscarriage, and IVF, and what that was like for him as a person and a partner.

Don't worry, this episode is not a downer! We also talk about the joys of parenthood, like going to Costco and Fringe Fest with your 6-year-old, buying them little toys just to make them smile, the pride you feel putting food on the table, and the fuck around find out parenting style.

Fact check: during the episode, Emily mentions that 1 in 8 pregnancies ends in miscarriage and notes that she'll fact check herself later. Per the Cleveland Clinic, about 15% of pregnancies end in miscarriage.

For more of Pauly and Emily's work, check out:

• Pauly's Instagram
• Guglielmo Sauce (or find it at Wegmans & other stores near you!)
• Craft Cannery
• Emily's Instagram
• Serve Me the Sky Digital

This is a production of the Lunchador Podcast Network. Our logo was created by Tenderchomps Art.

Mentioned in this episode:

Joe Bean Coffee - Coffee that Lifts Everyone

Use promo code Lunchador for 15% off your order! https://shop.joebeanroasters.com

I'll tell you a secret about men: I don't know if I've ever really truly matured beyond about 14 years old.

Like the things I wanted to do when I was 14, I just want to stay up all night playing video games, eating pizza and like drinking Mountain Dew. I kind of still want to do that at 42.

I feel like a lot of millennials are healing their trauma by doing what they wanted to do at 14. So go for it!

Hello and welcome to It's A Lot, a podcast about things that are a lot. On this show we have honest conversations about the highs and lows of social parenthood and more. When it comes to complex topics, online discourse can lack nuance and empathy. That's why we're leaning into deep conversations, making space for conflicting, messy feelings and keeping it real about how we feel. We could all use a little more of that sometimes. I'm your host Emily Hessney Lynch, and today I'm excited to share an interview with Pauly Guglielmo.

This is a special two part crossover episode. Pauly interviewed me for his show, the Pauly Guglielmo Show, and I interviewed him for It's a Lot. You should see both of them in your feed, so make sure to check out his interview with me if you're curious for more about how I started my business Serve Me the Sky Digital, my path to becoming an adjunct professor at Nazareth University, and how I balance all of that with being a mom. Like I actually balance it, ha ha. We also talk about tattoos, childhood trauma, and more, so make sure to listen to both.

Just a quick content warning before you dive into today's episode: Pauly and I do talk at length about his and his wife's experience with infertility, miscarriage and IVF. If those are sensitive topics for you, please take care while listening. And if you want to skip past that part, it starts around the 27 minute mark and should wrap up around 39 minutes.

I really loved my conversation with Pauly. He's very funny, genuine, and vulnerable and I hope you enjoy listening and that it makes you feel a little less alone.

Without further ado, here's our conversation:

I'm curious, like, with your journey from radio to podcasting, what is it about audio that you love so much and wanted to, like, keep going with a weekly podcast?

So. I always loved radio. I just didn't like the company. So when I left radio, it was very, like, split. Split me emotionally right down the middle.

So much I loved what I was going into. I love this world, and I love entrepreneurship. But, God, like, my first love was radio. The specifically the audio medium, I think it came from, like, my grandfather would sit and listen to the radio in the morning if I went to his house. He was listening to the radio. He watched TV a little bit, but he was, like, a big radio guy.

And my grandfather would call in the local radio station, and I would later find out that a very small percentage of people will actually pick up a phone and call a radio station. My grandpa was the guy who would. And then so was my dad, because his dad did.

And so my dad would listen to the radio, and then he would have me with some hot take on, like, the Cleveland Indians, like, go in the other room and, like, read a statement that he had written because he just wanted.

So I would call radio stations when I was, like, 12 years old on behalf of my father to talk about how, like, Jose Mesa was the best closer in baseball. And I was so freaking fascinated by the delay that I could run in the living room and hear, like, the last 15 seconds of my voice. And that was my voice on the radio! And, like, that was just so cool. So it was just, I was enamored by, was just like... And you could connect to people.

And another thing about audio that is really fascinating is, like, in television, if you. If you need a pink elephant, you can just, you have to create a pink elephant. Either it's a graphic or you need to do something, but in, in radio, I can just say, "picture a pink elephant," and you did! It's theater of the mind. The. The potential is limitless, you know?

And then as I got better at it and I started sharing vulnerabilities, anxiety. I have all. A million things have gone wrong. Like, one time, I... I am, I wanted to curse. Can I curse on It's a Lot?

Go for it!

I shit my pants at work once and shared it on the radio. And I've never lived it down. People still talk to me all the time, but you know what they say to me? They go, "oh, my God, I would never tell anybody, but I've done that." And so, like, you just connect with people. Like, that was the most embarrassing thing that can happen to a human being. Nothing more embarrassing can happen to a human being than shitting your pants at work. I did it, so I can survive anything.

Yeah. Lived to tell the tale! Yeah, that's impressive. I think audio is really special like that for those connections. Especially, like you said, when you're vulnerable and it's so different than being able to see the other person. Like, I don't know what it is about imagining the voices you're listening to, but it's just a different experience.

You use your imagination. You use like, more of your brain, I think, when you're listening than when you're seeing.

So it sounds like you wouldn't want to do, like, the video podcasts on YouTube that so many people are pivoting to these days?

Very recently, a couple of weeks ago, I had the opportunity to start doing video podcasting and I really thought about it and I ended up saying no. Also because, like, I work at a factory. Like, I have stains on my shirt from work today. Like, I can't be on camera.

I feel like people get so done up for them.

Yeah.

Makeup done, cute outfit, cute background. Like, I don't have time for that even. You have to control your face and stuff too. Like, to look like... I feel like I would just have resting bitch face through the whole video.

Oh, dude. You know what I loved about COVID behind the mask? I could. Because my natural face, my jaw like, falls. Like, I like, like my jaw, like my mouth is just wide open. So, like, I fought my whole life to learn how to keep my mouth closed. During COVID I went back to just letting my, my jaw so people didn't have any idea. But I'm just standing there like, but yeah. And TV can't get away with that. Yes.

So I'm curious what it was like when you were getting ready to purchase Craft Cannery and like, make it what it is. Were you like, scared out of your mind? Were you like, super stoked? Like, what kind of feelings were going through your head?

I am still scared every single day about this place. This thing started like, this building you're sitting in started under a 10 by 10 tent at the Riesling festival in Canandaigua with a, with a couple of tables and a tent that I bought from Dick's Sporting Goods. And that was just to see if it would work. And it still, everything I do is still just like, "well, that worked. Let's see if this next thing works." And like, a lot of them haven't worked. Don't get me wrong. There's a lot of failure in there.

But this was one of the scariest things of my life, coming here, deciding to open this place, I should say it was just. It's risk. Like, what's the number one skill required to be an entrepreneur? Risk tolerance. You know, like, you were sharing about how you, you also, like, at one point made that leap. I mean, you remember how scared you are. You're going to be relying on yourself. It's crazy. I have terrible self esteem, terrible self confidence.

Like, I. Nothing has. I was bad at every sport I tried. You know, every girl I ever asked out said no. My wife, the first time I asked her to marry me, said no.

No way.

I have dealt with rejection my whole life. So what would make me think I'd be good at anything? And I'm not. But I'm resilient.

Resilience is important.

Yeah.

I feel like that's a very harsh story you're telling yourself that you're not good at anything as you sit here with like, your successful businesses and a marriage and two kids.

Like, you want to hear.

People probably wouldn't believe it!

Want to hear my childhood trauma real quick?

Yeah.

My mother used to tell me--she's gonna kill me because she listens to the podcast--But this has come up before. My mother used to tell me I had a black cloud over my head. She used to say, she used to go, like, one time she saw us all jumping off the roof into a snow pile when I was like 10 or 12 or something. And she like pulled me aside and she said, "you have a black cloud over your head. Your friends can do that, but if you do that, you'll break your arm." Yeah.

Oh, my God.

So, and then same thing with like one time, it's with a bunch of kids and like, kids were throwing balls at mailboxes. I mean, teenager crap. It's not, I'm not proud of it, but I was with teenagers and we were throwing balls at mailboxes and the cop showed up at my house out of like seven kids. And the cop was like, "well, they said they saw the Guglielmo kid." And I remember we talked to the cop. I had to apologize. We had to buy mailboxes. Etc. Etc. But after that door closed, I remember my mom saying, like, "see, you have a black cloud over your head!"

So I share this story on the radio one day and brother Wease is like, you are right now. He's like, sad for me. He's like, "that's terrible." So we call my mom on the air. And we say, and this is what's great about radio, too, is because people are like, into this. People are really into this. They're like, oh, like, "let's call his mother and tell him how hurtful that was to him." We call my mom.

I tell her this, Wease jumps in and starts saying, "Patty, honey, look what you've done to your kid. He still thinks about this." You know what my mom did? She doubled the fuck down and said, "well, he does!" This is like 10 years ago.

Classic boomer parent move.

She's like, "well, he does! I mean, just ask him. Like, he breaks things. He's just like..." It was like...

do you have siblings?

I have one little brother and he.

Does not have the same cloud?

I. Yeah, I don't think so. I mean, he's the baby. He kind of does get treated like the baby. I think he's loved more than I am. I don't know.

It's funny how they have, like, their different personalities.

Yeah.

Right from birth. But, like, I'm sure you weren't Dark Cloud Boy, like. Or that's just such a terrible message to plant in your brain for the rest of your life.

It was. I remember the first time I ever stood up to my mom. I remember doing it. And so I tried out for baseball and got cut when I... It's Little league is like 9, 10, 11, and 12 year olds. So I tried out when I was 9. I got cut, I didn't make it. I tried out, was 10, I got cut, I didn't make it. I tried when I was 11, I got cut, I didn't make it. So you see the resilience, right? Like, I just kept plowing away, kept coming back.

Yeah.

So I'm 12 now. It's my only chance I'm ever going to have to play in Little League. I hate baseball. I don't want to be there.

But all my friends play and my parents pressure me, and my dad's a huge baseball fan, so I feel like I have to go. So I go and this team needs a catcher. They need a catcher. And my mom, I tell my mom, didn't stay for practice. This wasn't.

I'm a millennial, not a Gen Z. I think Gen Z's, their parents stay for practice. My mom just wants to know everything after she picks me up. So they need a catcher. And I do not volunteer to be catcher because I am scared. The ball, I don't want the ball being thrown at me. I don't want the bat being swung by my head, I'm scared shitless. And so I don't volunteer to be a catcher.

And I tell my mom that because she knew they needed a catcher. And she just starts yelling at me. She's like, "then you're gonna get cut! You're gonna get cut!"

And I remember I stood up for her and I was like crying and I was like, "but mom, I don't want to play baseball. I don't want to. I'm scared. I don't. Like, if, if I get the job as catcher, I'll just be scared every day. It'll be the worst time ever, you know?"

And like, I remember she goes, "oh, okay. Yeah, actually, yeah, that makes sense."

Wow.

Wow, that worked. Holy shit.

Oh, wow. I'm glad she listened that time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Maybe that was a good lesson about speaking up for yourself in the end.

Yes, maybe. I think so. Maybe. Yeah.

We're stretching to find a silver lining.

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. How do we get talking about that?

I don't know, but I was thinking about...I shared my parental leave story--to pivot--so your parental leave, what did you do when your sons were born, with your entrepreneur journey? Like, how are you able to carve out time for that?

Two different stories? Because the six, the six year old was born when I was still working radio, so I was still just like a Monday through Friday worker.

I did have the business going, but it was, it was very much still side hustle. So that was different. That was like a traditional but paternal leave was not necessarily. Not the company, the company was fine with paternity leave, but the people I worked with, like there was, I was with Wease and he's old school and he's, you know, and dudes don't take paternity leave kind of culture is what I was around. And so I did take like a week off and when I came back, I was made fun of for taking a week off of paternity leave.

A week off?!

Yeah. Yes. And that, that was kind of. That like I was just a wife at home. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's rough.

Well, the more recent though, Giorgi, who's nine months old, that was a very different world because now it's. I am now it's. I've got a business, I've got employees. Like everything is. A lot is relying on me performing.

And so there was a lot of talk before he was born about what was going to happen when he was born and he was due the week of Thanksgiving. And so I was like, well, if we get lucky and he's on his due date, then I probably can get away with taking a few days off around Thanksgiving. We shut down on Thanksgiving and the day after Thanksgiving. So if we get lucky. And of course he's born the day after Thanksgiving, which is Friday. And so like on Saturday it already come. We're in the hospital. It's already coming up. So like, "when are you going back to work?" And. And I'm like, "Monday?" And she's like, "no, wrong answer." Yeah, "Tuesday??" So we ended up.

It's not really a compromise because it was bad. Like, it's just bad husbanding. But I ended up. You mentioned early mornings. So I ended up basically agreeing to stay home until like 9am every day.

And because I was good at waking up in the morning, I would wake up and I would just work at the house. Like, I would do the laundry, I would do the dishes, I would make the meals.

And the baby, like the baby would, if he woke up at all during that time, I would have the baby and then my, my 6 year old would wake up and he'd be with me and I'd make him breakfast and get him on the bus and stuff. And so it was like A, four hours of basically I like worked at home.

Basically, what she does all the time I was doing for just a few hours and just setting her up to A, sleep in and then B, not really have to worry about food or laundry or anything.

That seems like a decent compromise. How did that go?

I'm glad you said that because I felt like it was a decent compromise, but just the fact that then I would leave for eight hours was like, yeah.

Man. were you right on duty as soon as you walked in the door when you got home?

then yeah, I was. But that, that's. This is another. Like, this is maybe a place where I'm not. Also have not been a good person before.

And this is some therapy that we taught that I have to talk about in therapy and have talked about in therapy is that when I do get home, I've been through a long day, I'm very stressed out. I have, I'm very, I'm at my wit's end already when I get home and so is she. Right. And so we're meeting each other at our wit's end.

And if there is, we have a great relationship mostly. But if there's one toxic part of our relationship is that we have both been guilty of meeting each other at the end of the day and going, "well, I've had a hard day" and not realizing, well, so has the other person. We've not been good at recognizing. And there's been a couple hard.

Yeah. It's hard for it to not feel like a competition too. Like, "I had all these bad things happen, it was hard in this way." And yeah, "I had a hard day too!"

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was. It's just. It's toxic is the only really way to put it. Because. And we've talked about it, we've worked on it, we're way better at. Does not happen that often anymore. But it still rears its head every once in a while.

If I have a particularly tough day and I get home and she had a particularly tough day on that same day, like, we can definitely butt heads over what's going to happen for the next few hours.

It's tough too, like, I don't know what your support system is, but it's not like we just have people that we can hand the kid over and both take a break at the same time. Like someone always has to be on in our household.

Yeah, exactly. And now with two, two is a whole different ball game. You know, it's like there is no. And I used to come here on weekends a lot too.

With one child that was a little, little bit easier and sometimes even welcomed because she, she would go to her mom's house and stuff. But then now with two kids, I can't come here on weekends anymore. So I really have to squeeze a lot into a little and. Yeah.

So what is this chapter of fatherhood looking like for you now with a 6 year old and a 9 month old?

I'm having a ton of fun.

Yeah?

With the six year old. Like we, we just over the weekend we went to Fringe Festival, we went to Costco. We like, and we like, we go to the movies, went to Bounce Hopper, we went to McDonald's for lunch. It was like the freaking best. We're like friends. Like, we have the same interests. I'll tell you a secret about men: I don't know, maybe your husband is mature, but like, I don't know if I've ever really truly matured beyond about 14 years old. Like the things I wanted to do when I was 14, I just want to stay up all night playing video games, eating pizza and like drinking Mountain Dew. I kind of still want to do that at 42.

I feel like a lot of millennials are healing their trauma by doing what they wanted to do at 14. So yeah, go for it! Moderation. But yeah.

Yeah, so I'm with him like, it's so much fun. We are on the same page. The nine month old is adorable. You know, he's a baby, so we're not going to Costco and McDonald's.

The language at home, like, there is nothing better than when I walk in, he hears my voice and he just like starts looking around for me. And when he catches my eyes and then he just puts this big smile on his face and I was just like. And he just goes, and he starts like bouncing, like he's so excited. Oh, my God, it's the best. It's the best. It's great.

When Leo was his age, when my 6 year old was just still a baby, I was waiting for when is my time gonna come? You know, I'm like, what? This is, this is falling a lot on her. And there's some of this stuff I can't do.

I mean, I literally physically cannot breastfeed. Like, there's just some shit I can't do, so what can I do? And now it feels better. Now it feels like I'm carrying my weight more.

Breastfeeding didn't work out for us and I'm like, so glad it didn't because I feel like we could be a lot more equitable from the start since we could both do bottles of formula and like, be pretty equally bonded with him. And that was really nice.

Think how pissed you would have been if it was just like on you every single time.

It's a lot!

Yeah, my wife was pissed, but what can you do? I, like, I couldn't fix it. I was like, well, why don't you pump and then I'll do it like in the. But she didn't want to. She's like, no, I want.

Pumping suuuucks. I remember taking a Zoom breastfeeding class from URMC and I got off the call and just started sobbing. And Tim was like, "what's wrong?"

And I was like, "what do you mean, I had to grow him for nine months, now I'm going to have to push him out of my body in a traumatic way, and then they want me to feed him with my body for TWO YEARS?"

Yeah, yeah.

And he was like, "well, you don't have to do two years. You could do one year." And I was like...

it is traumatic! And did they come, did the, the consultant come see you in the hospital?

Oh, yeah. We saw like six lactation consultants in the first week. It was crazy.

And like, they make it so they're like, "will you be breastfeeding?" And I feel like if you say no, they'll shame you!

Yeah, I kind of get that vibe.

Yeah.

Yeah. I had, like, women, like, massaging my boobs for me and, like, little spoons up against them and just, like, all that.

Yeah. Yeah.

I'm like, I can't even think right now.

No. Yeah.

Yeah.

And it's so. It's like, I cannot imagine. I can't empathize with this, but I can sympathize a bit with the fact that I do remember when it was hard for Ryann, that she just felt like it was her fault. She felt like she's doing something.

It feels personal. Yeah. I think the hormones don't help either.

Yeah, it's rough. It's a lot, as they say.

Yes.

Yes.

I'm curious, like, what assumptions people make about you as a dad and which ones are true?

I don't know. I mean, I really don't know. I don't know what people are thinking.

But I've come to another therapy thing is I've come to the realization that, like, nobody's really thinking about me. Like, you know, we all. We all think, like, what do people think about me? But, like, the truth is that people don't think about.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? Like, I don't think people think about me. One thing that is.

It's not exactly an answer to your question, but one thing that I feel like fits really well on this podcast, and I just want to say out loud, because I don't get to say it enough, is that I get way too much credit. And in public, there's a lot of times, and this might sound overly traditional, and I'm sorry if it does.

There's a lot of times in public when people will come up and want to talk to me, and meanwhile, there's my wife, and sometimes our kids, sometimes not our kids, and they'll just be like, "oh, you've been so successful."

They're saying the nicest things, but they're ignoring the fact that, like, she actually is busier than I am and is the only reason I've been successful, because without her, if. If I had to be home with the kid, be like, there's no way this wouldn't exist. I would never been able to do this, you know, like, it would.

What would I have done? It's impossible and just doesn't get any credit for that. So it's not exactly what you were asking, but, like. And I don't know.

I don't feel like I. I don't know how to handle that when it happens in real life. What should I do in that moment?

Do you give her credit like you are right now?

Sometimes, you know, like, if there's room for it, I definitely do. Other times it's quick, it's in passing, it's walking through a restaurant or something.

But like, sometimes I try to as often as I can, but there's times that I don't.

I feel like hyping her up is probably one of the best things you can do and being honest about it because so much of that work is invisible and we make a lot of assumptions and.

Yeah.

Actually giving women the credit for that. And same for stay at home dads too, because people just assume. Usually it's the mom doing all the work and staying home, but sometimes it's not.

She's also really good at, you know, the decision making around here.

Yeah.

I mean, people. This is probably bad, but like, people don't realize how often a big decision around here might get made at the dinner table.

Yeah.

At home, me talking to her and her kind of really just helping me see it more clearly.

It's so helpful to have a sounding board like that.

Yeah. And she just, she can tell. She knows me. She knows what I really think about something.

She knows when I'm bullshitting and when I'm being like, "yeah, but, you know, the right thing to do is this." And she's like, "no, it's not. And you don't think that either."

Wow.

Wow, you're right.

That's amazing to have her call you out on that too.

Like, we were just looking at this. I. This. I might have to be a little careful about being detailed about this, but we were just looking at hiring somebody and I was saying that I thought it was a good idea and she was just like sniffing on it. She was just like, "it doesn't seem like you do." And I would be like, "well, there was this one thing and. But. But they have a, B and C." And. And she's just, just like, "but the one thing is a big red flag."

Yeah.

"And it should tell you, you don't want that person on your team." And I'm like, "yeah, you're right." She's making big decisions about this place. She's just very appreciated. So thank you for giving me the opportunity to say that on the record.

Shout out to her.

Yeah.

I know you've talked a little bit about your anxiety before. I'm curious how that comes up. As a dad. Are there certain things that make you really anxious as a parent?

Well, yeah. First of all, I am constantly afraid that I'm gonna like hurt them or something. Like just giving a bath. Like my. The night. Like I give bath most nights and my nine month old is still in like the little bathtub, but he's starting to like, want to try to climb out of it. But like even in just that split second where I'm like grabbing the soap or grabbing the towel, like, what if he like falls out of the thing?

Like, I'm like, just scared shitless of screwing something up like that. I mean, they're pretty versatile. They can take some bumps. They've both taken some bumps. Like they've both have taken a couple of spills where I'm like, ooh. And then they get up laughing and.

I'm like, yeah, yeah. We're in like the "oh my God" era. Like, "oh my God, oh my God, oh my God. What is he doing? What is he doing now?"

Yes, the nine month old like is crawling and once a while he just face plants and I'm like, "oh, no. Oh no."

And then once they're teething and then if they face plant, teeth go into the lip?

Yeah, yeah, exactly. With the six year old, it's a little bit of like, the anxiety manifests itself with like, like I curse in front of him and I've done that a lot and I'm going, oof. And like, then he curses and I'm like. But I'm actually, I'm not all that worried about curse words. This is a weird offshoot.

But like, I am so pissed off about the fact that you can show somebody getting shot on television, but you can't say the word shit on television. Like, to me, that's backwards. Shouldn't saying "oh shit" be fine? And shooting someone in the head on regular TV should probably not be shown. I mean, I'm not talking about like, they, they won't maybe show real shootings, but the TV shows do. There's a lot of violence on tv. And anyway, that was a weird aside.

We were watching Thomas the Tank Engine during snack time the other day and an ad came on and I don't have YouTube kids set up yet. And it was like some really violent TV show with all these guns blaring. And I was like, great, cool. Now my kid's

Yeah.

Seeing this.

Yeah, I actually, I was watching. He was like, he was reading or playing with toys or something in the middle of the living room. And I started watching a show that I didn't think had any violence in it in the very first scene, of course was violent. And it was one of those things where it happened so fast, where they're talking, and then the guy just pulls out a gun, shoots him. And I. And as soon as that happens, I'm like, oh. And I'm, like, reaching for the remote, and I look to see, like, did he see that? And he's just staring at the TV with his eyes wide open.

And this is kind of funny, though, because this is like a year ago. It's pretty recent. He sees that I'm panicked. My wife's upstairs now he's fucking with me, because then he goes, "I'm telling Mommy!" And he just, like, runs upstairs.

Doesn't even know what he's telling her.

He's just like, "there was a man that shot a man on tv!" And she's just like, "PAUL!!!" So the anxiety manifests of, what am I going to screw up? Like we said earlier, like, what's the thing he's going to be in therapy for? What's the black cloud? What am I doing to him right now that is going to be his black cloud?

I keep hearing that, like, rushing can instill anxiety in kids. And I'm always like, oh, this morning we went out for coffee with a friend and their baby, and we were, like, rushing all over the house to get ready. And my son kept bringing me books to read. And I kept being like, "oh, hang on, we got to do this, we got to do that. We got to get ready."

And I was like, I should have just sat down and read him the book. But we had to get out the door by a certain time. Like, it's hard to balance the. Like, I am an adult and I'm a parent, and we have to be at a place by a certain time. But also, like, I don't want to not engage with you because we're in such a hurry.

Yeah, it's a lot. As they say, it's a lot and a lot, sometimes it contradicts itself, too, you know, Like, I don't know, in a hurry. But is it good also to, like teach your kid to

do something fun and

Yeah.

Enriching and enjoyable?

Yeah, I agree.

He's in his era of, like, bringing us a dozen books and doing the toddler plop in the lap, which is so nice. And now he'll get up before the story's over and get another story in queue so that you can't leave because he's got more ready. It's really cute.

They scheme, too. Yeah, you're right.

Yeah. He's getting into that scheming era.

And then you also. You do you feel like, guilt about. Should you just never stop reading? Like, if your kid wants to read 12 books?

Like, yeah, like, that's great.

It's great.

But also, at some point, getting tired of some of these.

Yeah. Like, at. At some point.

I can recite so many of them by heart now. It's wild.

Yeah, Yeah, I get it. We're on to chapter books. Oh, fun for Leo for the older one. And we've been. We did Captain Underpants. Now we're on to Dogman.

Nice.

And that's our thing. Every night we read a few chapters.

Oh, that sounds like a good time.

Yeah. And then every time we finish one, we buy a new one. We're book people.

So I'm curious about the era in between Leo and Georgi. I know you told me a little bit about infertility struggles. Can you talk a little bit about what that experience was like?

So one of the things that made me just fall in love with my wife right away was we talked about kids on, like, our second date, and she was. We were gone. We were both gung ho. We want to have kids. Kids. And she. I just saw it for years before she was a mom.

Like, this is gonna be the best mom ever. She's just. She's, like, made for this. Like, she wants nothing more than to be a mom. She is just the perfect mom. She's gonna be. And so the beginning of the story sounds very happy because we get married and we decide, "let's have, let's have a kid." And we start trying, and we just immediately get pregnant.

Like, the second time we even tried, we were ready for it to maybe take a while. We were like, it can take months. We'll have to download the ovulation schedule. And it just immediately we got pregnant. And so that's Leo.

And Leo's born, and we get cocky, you know, and we're like, "okay, so we'll plan out our site. We're gonna get, we're gonna do it in March so that the baby's born around Christmas. And. And so we'll start trying in March because obviously it's gonna be instant again. It'll just be perfect." Yeah, we just have it all planned out, and then you can probably already tell how this goes, but it doesn't. And then it doesn't. And then it doesn't. Month after month after month. It just doesn't.

And then it's that thing that you always hear couples talk about, how now it's not even fun anymore. Now it's a chore. Now it's like, it's on the calendar. It has to happen. Everyone's tired. It's almost like you're, like, having sex pissed off because you're kind of like, well, we have to, you know, like, it. And it sucks. That really sucks. It, like, it takes everything that's important out of it, and it just becomes. And then the pressure starts.

Yeah.

Now you're getting towards a year, and it's. And it's like, well, it has to work this time. Right? It has to work this time. And it just doesn't. And it doesn't. And we get well over a year.

And once you get over a year, you can be diagnosed with infertility. So we go to get diagnosed with infertility, and we get diagnosed with something so frustrating called unknown infertility. Have you ever heard of that?

Yeah, a little bit.

Yeah. Unknown infertility. Which means, like, my test came back fine. Her test came back fine. It's just not clicking. It's just not happening. And it was so frustrating. So a few more months go by, and then it happens. Finally. I don't remember exactly. It's like a year and a half of trying. It's a long time. It's a year and a half of trying, and it finally happens. And it's this just huge sigh of relief of, like, oh, my God. Finally.

And also, like, we had already started talking about what the options were going to be. IVF is not cheap. We're going, "oh, my God. If we have to go down that road, like, what's that going to mean? Are we going to have to go into debt over that? Like, how much is that going to be?" Like, oh, God. So we get pregnant.

And something really that, like, I remember from the first pregnancy was that my wife at the OB GYN asked the doctor, "when can I stop?" This is like, first trimester. "When do I stop worrying about potentially miscarrying? Or when do I stop worrying about my child?" Or something like that.

And. And the doctor said, "if you're asking me when you can stop worrying about your child, the answer is never." And then she told a story about.

She's like, "My son is 32 and works at a winery, and I think about him. I worry about him every day," you know, like, so kind of put her in that place.

But then she went into how it's like, well, statistically, after the first trimester, it gets a little bit less. So with our second child, we're kind of eyeing the end of the first trimester. And. And that's also it's probably very well known, but I didn't really understand. But it's why a lot of times people don't announce they're pregnant until about three months in, because there is risk early on.

I always just like have chafed at that a little bit. Like, I told a lot of friends before we reached the end of the first trimester, just because I figured even if something happened, I would want people to know and have their support instead of have to go through it alone.

That's good thinking. And. And to tell you the truth, with Leo, we did. We were kind of like close to the vest with our second child. We were just so happy that we started telling everybody. The problem is that we got to the end of the first trimester, we were like a week out, and. And this, this one, I've never told anybody.

So I went to every appointment with Leo, every single appointment. I never missed anything. And then with the second pregnancy, I went to all the appointments. I skipped the last appointment.

This was the only one I didn't go to. It was just a routine ultrasound. Just a routine ultrasound. It was at like 3 o' clock or something. She would definitely call me.

I kind of forgot it was even happening. It was so just like routine, you know, 4 o', clock, 4:30, 5 o'. Clock. I still haven't heard from her. So finally at like 5 o', clock, I call her and I. I don't know what it is in the back of my head. I had a bad feeling and I called her and she's just. And I'm just like, what the fuck?

And so I just pulled in my driveway, I'm sitting in my garage, and she just starts telling me the whole story of everything that has happened the last couple hours and I wasn't there. It's awful. It's awful. I wasn't there. And so we lost. We lost a baby. And it was the darkest time, the worst time.

We had to go in like that night and it's so emotionally dark, but there's also an actual physical part of it that has to happen, which is fucking terrible. It's just terrible. And so she has to go through that and. And it's such a bad thing for a man to be like, oh, poor me.

But like, you're just fucking helpless. You're just helpless. This is like the love of your life. You know, it's your wife, it's your child, and you can't do anything about it.

You're just helpless. It's just terrible. And I wasn't even there for the appointment.

and where was Leo in all this? Was he like, when she was...?

We just left him in the car the whole time. Just kidding. No, the reason I hadn't heard from her is because like she had to pick him up from... she had to pick him up from where he was and then she just like brought him to her mom's house and just like left. Just was like, "I don't know when I'll be back, like I need to go and like call me." We needed, you know, something like that.

I don't remember exactly, to tell you the truth, but it was basically like my in laws just stepped in and were like, "we got him." And then it was, it was just the darkest night that turned into the next day and then the next day and then the next day and.

And it was, it was months of just really sad times, you know, like there wasn't. It took a while till you like laughed again. And then also I didn't know, like, do I tell people in my day to day life or not?

And like, you know, I was eventually I'm going back to work after a few days and I did have to tell a couple of people because I just wasn't going to come to work for a few days. Just like "I'm just not going to be there for a little while. So I need you guys to take over."

And I, and the business was still young and fragile at that time, so I, I had to tell a couple people what was going on and why I was just going to be out of touch for a couple days and it was hard. It was so hard. And, and you know, like a few months go by and like it gets just, just a little bit easier.

And then like another month goes by, it gets just a little bit easier. But still, it's still thinking back on that, it's still not easy. It's. It's just, it's just some time has helped heal it. And then also of course we do end up getting pregnant with Georgi, which still come back to that. But so that has helped quite a bit. So we planted a tree in our front yard and like that tree is, is our. We remember with that tree.

That's a nice way to commemorate.

But so we're back to square one and, and we still want to get pregnant and oh my God, like the trauma. And now so we decide we're done around, we're gonna just, we're gonna go through the process. So we go IUI or 3 strikes, you're out.

And so now it's only got to be IVF, and we're like, geez. So we go to IVF, and that's a whole thing. There's like. She's like. There's shots involved, like. And I'm giving her shots, too. And nobody teaches you how to give a shot. They just send you home with the stuff, and they're like, yeah, give shots. And, you know, Dario? Dario's got such a great joke about. We talked, the one time I've talked about IVF was when he was on. And he's got such a great joke about, like, going on vacation with his wife when they were doing IVF and having all the needles in the hotel room and how the people who, like, turn over the room were probably like, "look at these fucking junkies." But it is like my son, my son Leo would come into our room, and I would be, like, giving my wife a shot in the ass.

There was some parts of it that were a little bit funny, but. But eventually we go through with IVF, and we do get pregnant on the first try with IVF, which was great. And that's Georgi. So. I'm sorry. That was kind of a long story.

No, but it's. I feel like it's important to talk about because I feel like only in the last few years have people started to talk about it more, and often it's women and not the dads who are talking about the experience, too.

Yeah.

How do you think it was different for you and your wife going through that? Like, were there. Was there anything you could do to support her through it, or you were both just so low you had to get through it with time or...?

So we were both really low. But I tried to pretend as often as I could that I wasn't. You know, I would, like.

I would, like, make dinner and kind of try to bring, like, some energy to the dinner and try to talk about other things, you know? And, like, so. I don't know. I. I didn't grieve for a while. It took me a little while. At first.

I kind of went into, like, protector mode, and I'm like, yeah, she's gonna grieve. This is her turn to. To grieve. I'm. My job is to make sure that she doesn't have to worry about anything else while she grieves, and I'll grieve later.

Yeah.

So that was maybe how I went about it as far as telling people. Like, we did tell some people. And, I mean, we were both amazed at how many people. How often we would hear, "oh, I went through that as well."

it was very frequent. I don't know exactly what the statistics on miscarriage are.

I think it's like one in eight or something.

It's enough that

I'll fact check myself and put it in the show notes.

But it's, it's enough that, you know, if you're in a group of people and you say it, probably somebody in that group has gone through the same thing.

So even just like struggling to conceive, like when we finally decided to start trying, I was like, "oh yeah, we're gonna, like, we're gonna have a baby. It's gonna be so fast," you know, and it took us almost a year to get pregnant.

We were right on the cusp of that, like, infertility starting to investigate thing, and everyone around us is getting pregnant. It felt like you're just surrounded and it's like "everyone has such an easy time but me."

Yes.

And then I can only imagine how much worse that felt when it was so drawn out too.

And let's tie it back to social media for a second too. Like the pregnancy announcements. I mean, there was a period of time there where my, my wife, she would just throw her phone down and I'd be like, "what's wrong?" And she'd be like, "fucking Rachel." Like, you know, I'd be like, by the way, if Rachel Pulvino's listening is. I'm not talking about you, not you. I just picked any name, any name off the top of my head.

That's who I immediately thought of!

But, you know, my wife would just, like, she would see a pregnancy announcement. She would.

And so we have a friend who went through infertility who posts things often about like being sensitive to the fact that perhaps, you know, other people are struggling. So don't, maybe don't, don't like gloat about.

We decided not to do any kind of pregnancy announcement and just hard launch it.

I said, oh yeah.

So it was like a week after he was born. We were like, "we got a kid now." And people were like, "what?!"

That's great. I love that.

there's so much like cringy pregnancy content. I tried to keep my algorithm free of that for as long as I could. Like, I didn't even Google anything pregnancy related in regular Google.

I would always go in incognito mode so I wouldn't get targeted ads. If I lose the baby. I don't want to be getting ads for baby stuff all that time. The Internet is just like a brutal place to be.

I think that was happening to my wife. I think she was getting fed all of it.

Oh, that's rough.

It was so rough. It was. It's still so we did the same thing. Like our first, our first pregnancy was just very stereotypical. Like pregnancy announcement, ultrasound picture, look at the baby bump. And the second one, nothing. We didn't post a thing about our second one or third, I should say third one. You know what I mean? Like we didn't. Not a thing.

So that was a long and hard road, it sounds like. what are some of the harder parts of being a dad now? Like what's the really overwhelming part of it?

Frankly? Time. It's just time. It's just I, I'm very invested here at this business and trying to make it work and so it takes a lot out of me and that's also a full time job. So it's just, I feel some guilt about like, you know, not always being around. Like should I be around more?

Like yesterday I was out of the house at 5am, I was out of the house yesterday at 5am, I was home at 8:15pm that sucks. That sucks. It's a lot. It's a lot. It sucks.

But like, like one thing I wanted to talk to you about because I do, I really think it's great that you give people space to talk about how hard it can be and it could be anything is as much as yes, it's hard and it's a lot. I also don't know if this building exists, if I didn't do that because there is some parts of hustle culture that are really just.

People look at, they hate it like now that's one good thing about Gen Z is these hate hustle culture. They're like, "where's your work life balance? What do you mean, you worked a 16 hour day? Like that's the worst thing you can ever hear."

But I don't know how this would exist without some 16 hour days. I don't know. I don't know. I. Am I asking you? I don't know. Like what do you think?

Like do you think it'll ever change and get better? Like you'll I think stabilize and not have to work those long days in the future?

It has, it has for sure. Yeah. As I've gotten to, to add staff and add automation. Like it's definitely my work weeks now are probably 50 to 60 hours but they were, they were closing in on 80 hours very regularly for a couple years.

That's intense.

Oh yeah. But again, I just don't know if it gets over the hump without that, you know, I don't think.

I also try to think of it as like seasons. Like it's just a season of life. It's going to be short term. Like, you can't do that for 10 years straight. You're gonna burn out. You'll have stress impacting your health. Like, it, it's, it's not sustainable.

But speaking of TikTok, I follow like career coaches and stuff on TikTok and there's one that says, like, you have to go through that stage and you're, you're think of it like you're building the foundation, but you have to go through that stage. But once you get through that stage, you've built this solid foundation. You did all that work early on.

Now I really, I can't come here on weekends anymore because my wife would kill me, you know, like, if I was just like, all right, well, you've got both kids. I got to work all day on a Sunday. Like, yeah, I'm not getting away with that now.

That's not going to happen, you know, but you know, years ago, like, that had to happen. But the cool thing again about her deserving more credit is she knew that back then. She knew that. And our goal was for her to not have to work.

And we got there and that was only because of some Sundays and some 16 hour days.

I feel like I've been lucky that I am able to, like, at least before having kids, I worked 25 to 30 hours a week and got all my work done, which was amazing. And now, like, I don't even know how to count it anymore because so much of it is stuff that's happening at night.

And then like my teaching and I'm like, well, I don't count the teaching, but like, it's totally does count it as more time that I'm working.

Oh yeah.

And like the podcast, like, is it work? Is it not work? You know, it's just like there are just no boundaries. It's all very blurred and. Yeah, yeah.

So I, I think I don't work that much, but I'm like, I probably am working a lot more than I think. Like, I'm not toxic hustle culture. But...

Yeah. What are your thoughts on hustle culture? Like, I mean, you have a podcast called It's a Lot, so my assumption is that you, you have disdain for hustle culture.

For the most part. Yeah. Like, I don't want to work 80 hour weeks or I try to like have some degree of balance and time for my family and my hobbies and everything. And I'm not trying to like scale my business and sell it off or something. So I think that lets me be in that position.

But yeah, sometimes I feel guilt over what am I. Like I'm like very driven to grow and scale and like you say about selling it off, like, I don't know, I mean I'm not trying to sell a business.

But also like I'm not gonna lie to you, if somebody came around and there was a big enough number out there, like, I mean I wouldn't be able to get the key off the keychain fast enough.

and then you'd probably start another business a year later!

Probably. What was I just listening to somebody who, who, I love how I built this, the podcast, how I built this. And somebody was talking about like on the very first day that their noncompete was up, they started, they started right back up.

That's aggressive.

Yeah, it was on the very.

Take a break!

Exactly. I don't know, I feel guilty because like I don't know if you're allowed, if it's, if it's like socially accept to say that you're interested in making money. But I am and I don't know if that's okay or not. I don't know, is that okay?

It's weird because we're so like capitalist and hustle culture, productivity culture, grind culture. But it's like everyone's hustling but you can't say that you're hustling because you want to make money. Like it's just a weird, like why would we stigmatize that? And it's so taboo to talk about money.

It is.

And I try to be like more, more open about it when I can. And someone else I had on my show talked very openly about like the brand deals she gets a sponsored content, her goals for her income stream and like how she wants to retire by 40 and all this stuff. And I'm like, hell yeah. Like put it out there, go for it, you know? Yeah, it can only help other people.

It is.

And I think she will say like she'll, she said, I got my first twenty thousand dollar brand deal for posting on LinkedIn. She's a LinkedIn influencer.

Nice.

And people were all like thrilled for her. No one was like, "oh you're so selfish, you're so greedy." Like people were like, "get that bag, girl!"

Like, yeah, I've been very self conscious about it. So we, we started as like farmers Markets and festivals and stuff. And. And we were like the local small scale food brand. And now, like, I get jealous because, like, there's a lot of local food brands, like, launching through the commissary or at local farmers markets where I'm like, "oh, cool, we're the same." And they're like, you, "we're not the same. You've got a factory. You're way..."

And I'm like, "yeah, but I started" and I'm thinking like, oh, but "doesn't that make you like me?" And instead they're like, "no!" in fairness, nobody has actually said that this is me. Like, I'm projecting. Like, these are my worst nightmares.

You're in a different chapter.

This is my anxiety speaking. I don't know. Sometimes I feel like, "oh, no, have I jumped the shark? Like, are we still the cute little local pasta sauce brand?" I don't know.

I don't think you jumped the shark. You only jumped the shark if you did a mountain lion post for your canning factory.

Oh, I had one ready to go. And then at the last minute, I don't want to post too much. Yeah. I was like, everyone else is doing it. Yeah, I don't want to do.

Well, we should probably wrap up our lengthy conversation, but I do have one more question for you. What do you really love about being a dad? What brings you joy?

The smile when they're happy, the smile gets me in trouble too. Because I, like, say yes to things I probably shouldn't always. I, like, I'm such a sucker for, like, buying a toy at TJ Maxx. It's like $5.

Oh, yeah.

And it just makes them so damn happy. But I'm totally spoiling them, you know?

And that's why you make money with your factory.

That's true.

There you go. To enable your child.

That's true. But like, we went to TJ Maxx on Saturday

That store is dangerous!

There's like a Sonic the Hedgehog Go kart and it's 4.99. "Daddy, can I have it?"

Like, my wife is way better at being like, "we don't need that right now. He doesn't need another toy." And I'm just like, I just want that dopamine hit of him being like, yes. And I'm like, "let's get it."

And he's just like, YES!!!" Yeah. And I'm just like, that's why I live for that moment of just, like, making them happy.

Happy and awesome and like, on a more sort of just like primitive level. This is sounds so weird, but I'm just so proud of, like, the fact that he has dinner every night. Putting food on the table.

Do you get to do much cooking these days?

I do, Yeah. I do, actually. Decent amount of it. Like, I'm already looking at the clock right now, and I'm being like, oh, I, if I'm gonna make dinner tonight, I gotta hurry up. The old adage is, like, putting food on the table, but there is something about putting food on the table that I just really enjoy.

Like, I love when we sit down to dinner and my kids have zero worry about whether or not they're gonna have dinner tonight. Like, it doesn't even occur to them that they might not have dinner tonight. It wouldn't. It's the most absurd thing in the world. What do you mean?

Like, of course we're having dinner tonight. I am so proud of that. I am, like, so proud of just watching them just. Both of them just eat. And that is so weird.

But, like, there's something about it makes me proud. And then from. From the baby, from Giorgi. It's that. That thing I told you about. It's when I get home and he just, like, his whole body starts, he's like. Because he sees me! like that.

That's really sweet.

Oh, my God. Like, that's amazing.

My son still sleeps in our room, and when he wakes up in the morning, he, like, pops up in his crib and he's like. And big smile. He, like, waves over, and I'm like, "what?"

Yeah.

But he's so happy to see us, like, any time of day.

Yes. We're his best friends.

Yes.

And, like, that won't last forever. And I just want to soak up every bit of it. But you know where I'm, like, a bad, like, millennial parent, though, is the innocence that he has.

Like, I just want to preserve the innocence, so. But you can't preserve innocence forever. At some point, you have to let your kid experience some hardship or they just won't be able to experience hardship. And I'm having a hard time with that. I'm having a hard time with, like, if the kid isn't nice to him. At school, my wife and my inclination, like, the. Our raw emotion is like, "we'll fix it." But then both of us are like, "no, no."

It's so interesting. Like, we've been going to, like, local libraries to play in the play areas and stuff, and just seeing all the other millennial parents doing their own versions of gentle parenting. Like, my kid was the youngest one there the other day, and all the other parents are like, "share. You have to share. Be nice to the baby."

And, like, one mom, like, took her kid away after he didn't share for, like, two seconds. And I'm like, okay, it's fine. Like, my kid can tolerate the distress of your kid not wanting to share a truck. It is fine. Like, I'm very chill about it, but everyone's, like, doing the most.

If my kid is rude to another kid, I am freaking, like, embarrassed. I am so embarrassed. But, like, when another kid is rude to my kid, I really

They'll figure it out, they're kids!

Yeah.

Yeah. Pretty much. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

So I wonder if ever, if we all feel that way. I don't know. There's. I don't. Some. Some of the moms scare me at the.

Yeah.

Some of them. I do think if my kid is rude to their kid, that they're gonna come for me. So, like, yeah, yeah.

Like, I never know when to intervene. It's just like, yeah, yeah. Let them figure it out or let the other parent step in. I'm just gonna hang out over here.

There was a time where my kid was shooting. He had a squirt. I was gonna say squirt gun. I think we call them squirters now. We don't say squirt gun anymore. But he had squirt, squirter.

And he was just squirting this other kid in the backyard, and this kid didn't like it. And I'm kind of going like, "Leo, please stop. Like, he doesn't want you to hit any." My kid's just being a jerk.

Like, he's just keeps squirting this kid, and the kid finally turns around, throws a water balloon, and hits my kid right in the face. Emily. I was, like, happy. I was, like, "good. He needed that."

I think it's called fuck around find out parenting.

Yeah.

Yeah. Natural consequences.

Yes. Yes. But I was, like, rooting for that kid to, like, like, knock him down a peg.

Yeah, yeah. That's too funny.

The dad was like, "oh, my God, I'm so sorry." I was like, "no! that's the best."

All good.

He needed that. Yeah.

I think that's a perfect note to end on. Thank you for chatting with me for It's a Lot. Thank YOU for having me.

Thank you. We did a super episode. We did an hour. We did an hour and a half.

Oops.

Okay. You good?

Yeah!

I'm not editing anything. This is great.

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