The holidays & new year can be a time of emotional highs and lows, so today, we're diving into the topic of young ones grappling with "big feelings" - whether neurodiverse or neurotypical!

We kick things off by emphasizing the importance of recognizing the subtle signs that precede emotional outbursts—because there's usually a whole lot brewing before the storm hits. With a blend of our real-life moments and professional insights, we'll share our experiences as moms and clinicians dealing with emotional rollercoasters, whether it’s a joyous moment or a meltdown. We'll also highlight the need for parents and professionals to adopt a curious mindset, spotting those precursor behaviours, and using practical strategies to help kiddos navigate their emotions. If you’re a parent or working with young ones, this episode is packed with relatable stories and actionable tips to better support those wild emotional waves!

Timestamps:

(01:31) - Welcome

(04:39) - Inspiration For This Episode: Biting At Home

(11:43) - In The Moment Teaching

(23:38) - Strategies For Emotion Regulation

(34:45) - Understanding Big Feelings In Neurodivergent Learners

(57:22) - Coaching Strategies for Older Kids

(01:03:57) - Book: The Fantastic Elastic Brain

Mentioned In This Episode:

1. Your Fantastic Elastic Brain by JoAnn Deak - This engaging picture book introduces children to the concept of neuroplasticity, explaining how the brain can grow and change through learning and experience. It's a great resource for fostering a growth mindset and helping kids understand that mistakes are part of the learning process.
2. I Just Don't Like the Sound of NO! by Julia Cook - A part of the "Best Me I Can Be!" series, this book helps children understand the importance of accepting "no" for an answer and the value of patience and respect. It's a great tool for teaching emotional regulation in situations where children might feel frustrated or upset.
3. Wilma Jean the Worry Machine by Julia Cook - This book addresses anxiety and worry in children, providing strategies for managing these emotions. It's particularly helpful for children who tend to overthink or become anxious in new or challenging situations.
4. I'm Stretched! by Julia Cook - This book discusses the feeling of being overwhelmed and provides strategies for managing stress and finding balance. It's a great resource for children who have difficulty handling multiple demands or transitions.
5. I Think I Think a Lot by Jessica Whipple (2023) - This picture book delves into the experience of overthinking, portraying it as a chaotic swirl of thoughts. It provides a metaphorical approach to understanding obsessive thoughts, making it accessible for children to grasp the concept of mental overload.
6. My Brain Is a Race Car by Nell Harris (2023) - Utilizing the metaphor of a race car, this book explains how the neurodivergent brain processes experiences differently. It offers self-regulation tools in a fun, rhyming format, aiming to open conversations about managing emotions and behaviours.
7. Flamingo Boy by Michael Morpurgo (2018) - Set during World War II, this novel follows Lorenzo, an autistic boy living on a farm in southern France. The story explores his unique perspective and experiences, providing insight into the challenges and strengths associated with autism.
8. A Kind of Spark by Elle McNicoll (2020) - This middle-grade novel features Addie, an autistic 11-year-old who seeks to memorialize women once tried as witches in her Scottish village. The book addresses themes of identity, advocacy, and the experience of being neurodivergent.
9. Just Ask! Be Different, Be Brave, Be You by Sonia Sotomayor (2019) - Written by Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor, this picture book introduces children to various disabilities, including autism, through the voices of children who experience them. It promotes understanding and acceptance of differences.

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So what happens before the big freak out?

Right.

And sometimes with our neurodivergent learners, it can look different and be way more subtle.

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

And so I think that's like a really important thing to look for is like, notice those small movements. Do their shoulders raise slightly? And so looking for those really small, subtle changes that come before the big sort of behavior that's concerning.

Hey, everyone, I'm Brittany, speech language pathologist.

And I'm Shawna, behavior analyst.

And we're your hosts at Neurodiversally Speaking.

This is a podcast where we bridge the gap between research and practice, exploring autism and neurodiversity through the lens of speech and behavior.

Whether you're a parent or a professional, we'll give you practical tips to bring into your home or your next therapy session.

Let's get started.

Welcome to the Neurodiversally Speaking podcast with Brittany Clark and Shawna Fleming from lmno, brought to you by the Sensory Supply. While we aim to make neurodiversity speaking suitable for for all audiences, mature subject matter can sometimes be discussed.

Suitable only for those over the age of 18.

If you're under the age of 18, please talk to your parent or guardian before listening to our show or listen together with him to stay up to date on new episode releases and show updates. Connect with us on Instagram eurodiversityspeaking.

You can also send us listener questions to address on the show at hello@neurodiversallyspeaking.com - Neurodiversally Speaking starts now.

Let's just start by talking about how much is happening in your life right now. Everything is crazy. You're at my house and you just had a shower. Cause unfortunately the water heater broke last night.

Yes, I was solo parenting at bedtime. Terrible. I would just quickly treat, stain, treat an item. There's absolutely no need for me to go downstairs.

And I went downstairs and opened our laundry room door and there was water everywhere. Everywhere. And then actually my both my children are out of the rooms. I'm in the basement. They're upstairs. You can hear their little feet pattering.

And I just like, they can see how much water is in my basement. And so I'm like running upstairs and I'm telling my five year old, like, you need to stay in your room.

This is after you put them to bed.

Yeah, they like come out of their room and then I'm like, you got to stay in your bed. Like, mama's got a big problem downstairs. I'm trying to solve My husband's out. And then I put my.

My littler one, two and a half year old, easier to put back to bed. And then I'm like, you gotta stay in bed, blah, blah, blah.

Then I go back downstairs and I step out of the laundry room and my 5 year old is standing there. Of course he is. I think I'm home alone. And I'm just like, ah, like startled. And then he's like offended that he startled me.

So then he's like crying, I'm not sure, because I upset him because like, that squealed.

And it's also late and he's tired.

And so I'm like, no, like, you gotta go upstairs. I've got a big problem here. There's just like one mama and a really big problem. And he just like, can't, like, I can't reason with them.

I can't rationalize with him that like, he's like, but you told me that you'd come and snuggle with me. I was like, yeah, that was like, really? The plan. Unfortunately, now I need to get a shot back and like, we have a flood in our house.

I'm trying to explain to him about this water and stuff. And he's like, yeah, but you said you'd snuggle with me. Yeah, I just said, like, if I don't deal with this now, like, we're gonna be in trouble.

Yeah, but you said you'd stumble with me. And I feel like that is the inspiration for today's podcast. Totally.

Oh my goodness. So here we are. Your house is kind of upside down in more ways than one because you're also going through a massive reno and construction site.

Right? Yeah, I actually forgot about that one going on.

Yes. And then my house, we just.

We're actually recording in my basement right now, which thankfully we have floors again because we had a flood and we were out of this space for six months. So that will not happen to you. You caught it early, right?

Yeah, exactly. I was like thinking of you on one hand.

I was like cursing myself for going in the basement and wishing I hadn't discovered it and my husband could have just found it the next day. But then on the other hand, I thought of you guys.

I was like, oh, gosh, that took a long time to, like, go through insurance and hear back about that. And then of course, you have to, like, still fix everything.

Yeah, yeah.

And so was some sort of weird blessing, I guess.

Oh, gosh. So here we are. Like you said, welcome back to neurodiversity speaking. Definitely Inspired by what's going on in your life.

Not only with the construction and the flood that you stopped thankfully, but stuff's going on at home.

Yeah, exactly. And certainly definitely my inspiration. For today's podcast, we want to talk about big feelings. Yeah.

And what are those moments that where kids are like throwing themselves on the floor? Or in my case, my two and a half year old is biting at daycare and it's, you know, it wasn't. I don't wanna say it wasn't happening often.

It was happening often enough that it probably should have been flagged sooner, but it was like, it seemed like a one off, you know, here and there that he was biting this other child at his daycare. And then I showed up on Tuesday to pick him up and the child had like a visible mark from him biting the child. And like, that is just like, not okay.

Right. And if I was that other parent, of course I'd be like really concerned and upset.

And then it just seemed like it was happening more frequently in the last few that I just thought, oh, gosh, what am I gonna do? Like, I need childcare, but I can't keep sending him somewhere where he's hurting someone.

You know, that's not fair to this little girl that just because I need childcare, she's getting vampired by my son.

Yeah.

And when you and I chatted about this one yesterday, I guess I know you know this, but sometimes I feel like it's helpful to hear like, he is not a bad kid and I love him with all my heart, you know, like, he's very, very special to our whole family too.

And I felt like to hear that from us, like, we love him unconditionally and like, because he's biting doesn't mean he's bad, you know, and we'll talk more about him as his kind of profile and stuff, but like, like his language is excellent. So it's not that, you know, and he's like, obviously something's going on, right? And we'll talk about that. Yeah, but he's not a bad kid.

But we're in a really tricky. You're in a really tricky situation.

Yeah, I am.

And like, again, I am so thankful that I have the job that I have in situations like this because I can take a step back and like, really remind myself, you know, it's the environment that's not working for him and then get curious, you know, what is what aspects of the environment aren't working for him and know that he's not a Bad kid. But I also know that it's not okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

For him to keep biting.

Right.

Especially to, like, it's not like he's just biting. Like, he's really chomping down there, leaving marks on a child. And, like, his daycare provider is so sweet.

And she would say, you know, it's so normal. Right? Like, at this age. And I know that she's right. Again, I live and breathe this, but it's still not okay.

And she's saying to me, she's like, you know what? All the kids are, like, hitting and kicking each other at other times.

I'm like, yeah, unfortunately, like, the biting just doesn't go away as quickly. You know, if you get hit or something, you. I don't know, maybe would have a bruise, but probably would have nothing. And same with kicking.

Whereas, like, in this case, he was leaving marks on this child. And again, like, you're saying he's not a bad kid, but he's definitely a sign of, like, a missing skill.

Definitely. Yeah.

And then in his case, it was a behavior he did when he was younger, when he was frustrated and couldn't get access to things.

Right.

So usually if we would say no to something or, like, if he's asking us for something, we didn't understand what he was saying. He was, like, likely to escalate and bite.

Right.

But I would say, like, I don't know, several months now. Yeah, no biting.

That's what I was gonna ask you. Yeah. So it's so different from what's happening at home. And, like, I know the side of him that's, like, the cuddliest.

Like, I got cuddles from him yesterday. Like, he puts his head down on my shoulder, and he just, like, goes in for a second squeeze for a long time.

Like, he is a cuddly, affectionate, sweet boy. But then we're also seeing biting. And so what you're saying here is, like, let's get curious about, like, what's happening and, like, what.

Either is the skill that's missing that he needs to learn, or, like, what's happening in his environment, or both, maybe. Right?

Yeah, exactly.

So when his daycare provider was telling me about it, I was then, like, okay, like, let's think about the last, say, five times you've told me that this has happened. What's the scenario?

Yeah, Right.

What's happening right before he's biting?

Right.

In my ABA world, called the antecedent.

Yeah.

And it's, like, almost always access to items. So the most recent Time this girl was on the swing, he said, I want the swing. He used his words.

Yeah.

But then the child, of course, is still on the swing, which is also very appropriate.

Either said no or just said nothing. Probably, right? Yeah, exactly.

Probably. The sweet little girl said nothing. And then the daycare provider, like, just like, can't be there all the time. Right.

She's got five kids or all three and under. I just cannot imagine. And so the child probably says nothing. And then he probably said, I want the swing.

Yeah, I said nothing.

He probably went and screamed, probably, and that did nothing. And so he's like, well, no one's helping me. This usually works for me. And so then he bit her.

Right.

And then another time, like, a child was, like, close to him on the couch, and he didn't want that and had said that I don't want you here. Right. Or, like, move or whatever his phrase was. Anyways, but the person didn't move, which, again, totally reasonable.

I'm not saying that they should have moved because my son said that. No. But again, he's like, well, I didn't get my away. You know what usually works for me? If I bite people.

Yeah. Then they'll move back.

Yeah. Or then I get the swing or then I get that item. So, yeah, definitely the first step was, like, figuring out, okay, what's the common themes here?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so, like, not getting his way really would be a common theme in his case. And then he's, like, quick to react.

Right.

And I do think so. Like, personality depending. Like, like you said, he's like, so lovable and cuddly.

We always see about him, like, he's like an all in kind of guy or all out kind of guy.

Fair.

And it's. You're not unsure where he's sitting? Maybe a little bit. Like me, he's like, yeah, very clear on what he wants and doesn't want.

And so, yeah, the first thing we were doing was, like, trying to figure out, okay, what's going on here? What are the patterns? And then what can we do? Knowing that I have one daycare worker and five children that are three and under.

That's reasonable, right? Like, after every incident previously, we kind of said, okay, yeah, just like, stay near them, you know? But then someone needs their diaper changed.

Or there's like a little dude right now that's a crawl. That's crawling. And so he's little still. He's not gonna come. When you say come, you have to go get him.

And so, like, you can't just be with my son all the time.

No. And in other ways he's so independent.

Yes.

Like he can pro, he can tell you when he's got to go to the bathroom, which is even impressive as.

A two year old.

Right. Or like he can tell you stuff. But here you're saying. Yeah, yeah. So challenging.

And so after like every incident that was happening before, we were doing like role playing and getting our stuffies out and practicing turn taking and practicing like advocacy. So like go tell the daycare provider you need help solving this problem.

And anyways we were role playing all these things, but it wasn't happening at home.

And then we know that a little two and a half year old's brain is like developing so much and that that impulse control and executive functioning, emotion regulation, all of those things are not quite developed or not even near not quite. Actually they're like very minimally developed. And so in his case, like what could we do, you know, with all these factors?

It's not happening at home.

Yep.

Because his brain's still developing. Really. It's like that in the moment teaching that is like the most effective. You can practice things outside.

Exactly.

Of the scenario, which is really good. You know, outside of the moment. Definitely be practicing so that in the moment you know which tools you can pull on.

But then in his case I'm not there, you know, so I can't prompt him to use the tools that we've been practicing.

Right.

And then if no grown up is there, then no one can prompt him and really that's what he needs. There's like a skill deficit here where he needs to learn to walk away or try like some pick a different toy and come back.

Like he needs coaching to figure out what to do in this moment. You know, you didn't get your way and biting is not appropriate. You're not a shark.

Yes.

And again at home we'd be like, we don't bite, you know, but again he's like two and a half and has no concept of time. And so it's been, it was tricky, you know, had to take a step back like I said, and sort of think about what could we do for him in this environment.

Right. It can't be what I would do at home, one on one with him.

Yeah.

Needs to come up with a plan that's feasible in like this environment with a bunch of other two year olds.

Oh my gosh, it's so challenging and I almost want to like pause it there and reframe. So if I'M a parent listening to this and I'm like, totally relating to what you're saying, which of course I am. I've been there.

My daughter at that age was scratching my husband on the face and he'd be like, my cornea.

Look, I think, you know, it was horrible. Like, I felt so bad.

Again, very sweet girl. Very challenging behavior that we were seeing. So. So at that time, I remember you kind of coaching.

And I know this because we work together so closely saying like, okay, if we're looking at the antecedent and we're looking at what happened immediately before, we want to get curious about why this is happening. And so for parents or listeners listening to this, you know, and you've identified access.

But can you break that down again, like, if I'm a parent and like, what if it was something else? And what are those other things?

Yeah, we look at behavior usually as falling into one of four functions. So access. Two things you like, right?

I want the swing, but I can't get it. So I'm gonna correct. Yeah.

Screen time is an often one. Yeah, I want more screen time. I don't want to turn this off. Right. So access. The other one is escape. So getting out of things you don't want to do.

So like maybe you don't want to eat dinner and throw a big tantrum and then you get sent to your room. So that works for you.

Yep. Access, escape. Okay.

Attention. So to get attention from others. And again, in his case, I do think it's like access related, but I would guess it's maintained my attention. Right?

Yeah.

Because the brain, especially a kid brain, cannot differentiate between good and bad attention.

Well, yes.

Right, Right. And so it loves good attention, but it also likes bad attention. And so that can be enough to let the brain know, hey, that works pretty well.

Right.

Let's keep that plan in place because I did act like I was us getting some attention from that.

So.

But then we'll often see it in sibling stuff. Right. Because parents will usually rush over.

Totally.

And so they're able to get the parents attention pretty quickly.

Totally.

And then the final one is sensory or like automatic. Sometimes we call it automatic reinforcement.

Or like things that you do just because they, like, feel good or because you like them or helps regulate your body or something like that.

Like this heated fuzzy blanket on your lap right now for you is very sensory.

It's very cozy and warm.

Yeah, Perfect.

All right.

Because when you were talking about this and you were saying this is such a tricky situation, but thankful to Be a behavior analyst to know something. And I'm gonna continue to pull on all of my tools and what I know to help solve this problem.

And so for you, your brain naturally goes to those things, but for the rest of us who aren't behavior analysts, so helpful to say. And I remember when it happened with my daughter, like okay, Evan, my husband, we gotta take some data here.

What is happening right before she scratches you so that we can help figure this out and what do we think it is, why she's acting this way? Do you think it's like cuz she doesn't want you there or does she want you closer or like whatever. So access.

Okay, we're going to go through them one more time or no acronym. Sure, yeah.

SEAT is a nice acronym.

S E A T. Yeah, perfect. Okay. Sensory.

Sensory escape attention. And then tangible is the T, which is like access to preferred item.

Tangible being something that I want kind of thing. Okay, cool, cool. Access to something Cool.

Yeah, that's an acronym. I think there's a couple, but that's one that we all for sure.

And then the other component I was going to add with him that is important to consider as well is in my case it's not happening at my house. Yeah. But it is happening at the daycare.

Right.

And so then it's like, well why is that? You know what's happening?

And I think that's what really ties into this episode on emotion regulation is in his case there's like I said, four other three year olds, they are younger so they're constantly, he's constantly probably denied access, you know, he's constantly having to ask for things and then they're already playing with it, you know.

Yeah.

And whereas at home he does have a brother, but they like kind of different things or they play together and like of course we say no to him sometimes, but also like most of the time probably are saying yes.

Yeah, yeah.

And so I started thinking about that too and I was like, if we think about our emotions as like a bucket and he's got this bucket over his head, it's like every time that he's saying can I have a turn.

Can I have a turn?

And they're saying no.

It's like all these drops in his bucket and then at some point that bucket tips and that's when he's biting and that's where it's like it's not every time, but it's happening often enough stuff that I'm concerned for him that if he keeps going, he's gonna get worse. He's gonna learn this works, and we're gonna fight him all the time.

Right.

And then I'm also concerned for. I want him to learn those skills that he needs as well, to regulate his emotions and use his words.

And so the more that he practices biting, kind of, again, the brain just puts, like, another little check mark, like, yep, worked again. Let's keep that in our inventory. And then for the little girl, of course, also, like, not. Okay.

Yeah, yeah. So hard.

So again, you're looking at what just maybe the function of the behavior, and then the environment is hugely influencing it because you're not seeing it at home. We're not seeing it at my home either.

Like, you know, it's like, it's not when we're out either with our families together, it's like something specific to. And again, I'm not blaming the daycare either.

I'm saying it's like, because there's so much going on, and then there's complexities when you got a whole bunch of little kids. And, you know, in this case, it's a home daycare. So there's, like, really one provider to a ratio of, like, five little ones.

And that's just incredibly challenging. And nothing that she's doing or not doing or, like, the other kids are doing or not doing.

So I like saying I. I would kiss her feet every day.

I don't know.

Like, that would be, I think, one of the hardest jobs for me to do every day.

Right.

And so certainly it's like, there's things that we can change, but we're not blaming anyone for the biting, including my son. You know, I really understand that it's a skill deficit.

Yeah.

And that if he could do better, he would do better.

Right. And so I think so, too. Yeah.

One of the first strategies that the.

I'd reached out to sort of someone manages the daycare and also talked with the daycare provider about it, and one of the first suggestions they both had separately was jewelry.

So this is, like, necklace.

Like, a necklace that you can wear and bite. And as you know, we definitely use these at the clinic.

Yeah, Yeah.

A lot of neurodivergent learners really benefit from those, like, fidgety tools.

Right.

And the jewelry is nice. So it's like a necklace that you can wear. There's some really cool ones now that.

You can buy, like, the Lego pieces or, like, I saw a unicorn one.

I was thinking.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then actually, you guys just gave us a shark one.

Yeah.

My son loves It.

And so it's not that I'm against chewlery, but the reason we would give someone chewlery is because they're biting for, like, sensory feedback. So it's all under that automatic or sensory seeking behavior.

Right. And then it matches the. I know what I want to thank you. The function. So the behavior matches the function.

The replacement behavior.

The replacement behavior matches the function. So I'm a child, and we hypothesize, or we've taken data to say it's sensory seeking.

So then I'm gonna bring in with some sort of fidget or sensory tool.

Exactly. And could do a whole episode, really, on that? Yeah, yeah.

The research is, like, sort of mixed on whether the sensory input needs to match the function of the. Your behavior that you're trying to decrease.

Okay.

And so anyways, yes, we do some assessing. Usually what you'll see is, like, something like teeth grinding.

Yeah, yeah.

Or you'll see them biting, like, a lot of objects during play or their clothes.

Right. Like, their collars and stuff. And then that's where we might think tulary's appropriate.

Perfect.

Let's try this as a solution. So then when you told me this, that the tulare is recommended for your son, I'm like, wait a second. This has nothing to do with what he.

Like, what's going on here. So just because he's biting doesn't mean he's, like, sensory seeking. Like, we don't hypothesize. We know he's not biting because he's.

Like, oh, that might feel good in my mouth. No, he's, like, delivering a message, a very clear message of back off.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so in this case, what I had said to them is, like, it would be unrealistic, Right. If he had impulse control, he wouldn't be biting.

And what you'd be asking him to do is to realize that he's mad, which he's not doing currently, and then to pick up a necklace and put in his mouth himself.

Exactly.

He's two. And so, like, that's just probably not gonna work.

Right.

If he really liked biting stuff, then maybe.

Yeah, yeah.

But in his case, that's, like, not inappropriate replacement behavior.

Right. Because we know that it has nothing to do with, well, the sensory seeking part of it. It's. He's sending this message.

And as the speech pathologist here, I also want to highlight his language is very good and advanced. And so I know because I had a conversation with him yesterday, and I was saying this to you. Like, we were talking about claws.

We were pretending to be witches and scare each other. And then we were kiddies, and, you know, we were purring and all this stuff.

And, like, he's delivering me all of these messages and using language in a quite complex way to talk about his feelings. And, like, all of these things that he's labeling and asking me questions, and he's saying, hey, Brittany, remember, do it this way.

You know, and, like, we're having. Having in depth conversations. So what I'm trying to say is it's not that he doesn't have the language.

It's that he's 2 and that you're.

Right, he doesn't have this impulse control to say, I'm gonna tell this little.

Girl I'm frustrated right now.

Because he actually knows frustrated.

And he will.

I've heard him say, mama, I frustrated. I can hear him saying that. But, like, in the moment, he did say it. He did say it again. They're like, I want to turn. I want to turn.

So his language is so good that that's not the issue either. It's just like, that wasn't working.

Exactly. And I think that's such an important point, too, when we talk about emotion regulation, not this linear thing. Right, right.

And so once they've got a tool in their toolbox like he does, he can say, I'm frustrated. He'll say, I'm grumpy, I'm sad. He's got lots of language around emotions, but in this situation, it's just not working.

And that's where my hypothesis around, like, having a really full bucket really comes from is because I know that he does have this skill sometimes. And that's where I think later in the episode, we'll talk about being a coach to your kids, and you will see, like, you'll be my man.

You, like, you transitioned so well from the TV yesterday and didn't do it today. What's going on?

And so a similar idea here with my little dude, where I'm like, I know that you have the language, and I know you can say things like, I'm frustrated. Right. You're not doing it in these situations. And so, again, you're not a bad kid. It's not that I think you're not trying. Right, right.

There's like a bodily reaction here. And so what we had to think about is, like, what can we do really, that's reasonable for the daycare provider to implement? And then what can I do?

A parent as well. And, like, we've been role Playing. We do turn taking.

Right.

I am trying to take, like, a little bit more of a proactive stance on making sure to, like, get him to wait a little bit more for things and, like, trying to talk about being patient and giving him activities he can do when he's waiting. So sometimes we'll do, like, a waiting song. Like, waiting, waiting. I'm waiting for my turn.

And then I'll give him, like, something to do with his fingers or something anyways to keep him busy. So trying to teach him some other strategies that he could pull on, but that's not what's gonna work. Still in the mom, right? I can't.

And I gotta send him back to daycare.

I need to. Yeah. And I. I want to say I love those strategies.

And so you're trying a lot of different things, knowing that he's not necessarily gonna sing his waiting song in that moment where he might have. But you're teaching the skill, and you've got to teach it, like, kind of ahead of time and then also in the moment, ideally.

Exactly. And I'm trying to pick again. So I'm thinking, okay, denied access is a trigger for you.

We think denied access when your bucket's full is really when you're biting.

And so to take a step back, if I'm going to deny access to you, I can come in here and still play a coaching role, you know, and I can still come in and teach you to sing. Like, oh, we're not going to have that right now. Like, you can pick a different toy or. Yeah, I just need a minute to get that for you.

You know, and just being a little bit more intentional to make sure that I am sort of practicing that impulse control with him and that inhibition. And then the rest of the plan really has to come, I think, in that environment.

Yeah, exactly.

And so I was like, again, we love our daycare provider. After the incident this week, that night, she sent me, like, a reinforcement chart that she had put together for the kids and a prize bin. So cute.

Some stickers and stuff. And, like, I was really, like, obviously so thoughtful and just so sweet. And then.

But then as a behavior analyst, I'm like, okay, these kids are only three. The passage of time is so absolutely the problem. Like, there's so many caveats to sticker charts. If.

And so then I started thinking, like, oh, gosh, I gotta give her all these tips.

And is he even motivated by the stickers to, like, is that gonna be, like, a good thing for his brain to signal? Oh, I did a Good thing, right?

Yeah. I wasn't sure.

Yeah.

And so what we did is like the next day I kept him home for the half day or I brought him into the office actually for the half day.

I got to play with him.

It was the best morning. And then that way she could start it with the other kids first and then he could kind of join in later.

And then my other thought was like, if it's because his bucket's full, then I'll sort of bring him in later.

So that he's got.

He doesn't have. Hopefully he's less frustrated when he's there.

You got Benny Cuddles, you can understand Brittany Cuddles.

Yeah. So that's his ideal day. Perfect.

Love me too.

And so she put this sticker chart in and then the other thing that she did is add a little bit more structure to their time. It's a home decor there. So I think they're very go with the flow. And both my boys have loved that.

There's never a day that they've asked not to go there. You know what I mean? I think they've really loved the unstructured environment there.

Just free play all day. Yeah.

But right now she's got five kids under three and as you know, the home daycare, like your kind of population changes all the time in the mix and then also, like several of them are new. And so what she added in was a little bit more structure to their day.

So like we're doing, I don't know, circle time first and then we go outside and then we have a snack and then we do inside play, like whatever their day is. Yeah, yeah.

And so she's made that into like small points of time, which I still think could be too large for this age, but it's reasonable to get started with for sure. And the other thing that I don't want to do is like overwhelm the daycare provider. Yeah. And make something that like she can't do, you know?

So I would rather start with this and see if it works. So we put this in and then put the sticker chart in. The kids were really motivated.

When I dropped my son up at noon, they're like, we got our stickers and they're so excited. So she put a little heart sticker on if they went the whole interval or the whole time without any aggressive behavior.

So the thing I love about it, or many things I like about it, one, it's not just my sign. Right. Like, even this little one year old is on this. He would obviously not hit or punch anyone. And so all the kids are on it.

And then it's like a differential reinforcement procedure, essentially for the absence of aggression towards a pr. So hitting, kicking, biting, I would think are probably her main ones. And all of the kids can benefit from this.

Like I said, my son is the one that's, like, leaving marks on people. But of course, they're all, like, trying to navigate this, like, social world and.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And likely they're shoving each other and, like, other stuff's going on, too. That's just normal. Yeah, yeah.

And so then the next part that comes into the sticker chart is like, what do you do when the problem behavior does occur? And, like, of course it's gonna occur.

They're all young, and in my case, I hope it's not biting that my son does, and it ends up being hitting or something that she's able to then intervene on.

Yeah. And so quickly.

Yeah. So in the moment when the behavior of concern happens. So I'll say, hitting, what do you do?

Yeah.

Right. And to make this salient to the kids, because what you can't do is, like, say, we don't hit here.

Yeah.

And then 10 minutes later, do your check in and say, oh, no, Johnny, you did bite.

Right.

You know, it's too.

The distance and the time is too long. Yeah. Too long. Yeah.

Too abstract. They don't really connect the two. And so really what we want to do is mark the behavior right away. Okay.

And so I had said to the daycare provider, if he hits, kicks, bites, whatever, I need you to have this chart on you and put an X on it.

Okay.

And she'll him, this is not okay.

Right.

And that way, you're connecting those two things right away. Right. Now your next tricky part comes, is if you do that, then the kids can kind of be like, screw the system.

I'm just gonna hit, kick, and bite now for the rest of this play, period. Because I've already lost.

Because I lost and I didn't get my sticker.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I've got nothing left to lose.

And so you're adding an X. I wonder about this all the time. Like, you're not taking a sticker away, but how is it different? Or could you take, you know.

Well, in this. So in this case, what we came up with is they're usually getting these, like, big heart stickers.

So if you get an X or two X's, right now you'll just get a small heart.

Right.

And this is where you're Saying differential reinforcement again for any of our parent listeners, it's like we give them more of the good stuff when they do something really excellent. Right. And so I'm like reinforcing more differentially when.

So if he was like went the whole interval and didn't do it, then he gets the big heart, Is that what you're saying? But then if he goes, how would he get a little heart? Tell me that part again.

If he hit or bit at any point during play, going to mark it with an X and then finish out the rest of the interval. Hopefully he's going to learn from this X. Yeah.

And then to keep him sort of motivated, this is when he could have the opportunity at the check in to get a small heart.

Oh. To earn sort of like, oh, now you like haven't hit since that time or something like that.

Just to sort of. So then at the end of the day they're cashing in their hearts.

Oh, I see.

Okay. And so what we. Or what I would recommend is that we don't expect perfection. All their young kids.

Exactly.

And so if they, I can remember how many little boxes there are, but let's say they get seven, seven out of eight hearts or something, then they can choose a price from the prize bag.

I see.

Okay. And so I don't like, like I said, it's not perfect to me.

Yeah, yeah.

But I think it's like a feasible starting point and has some of those factors that you'd want to think about specifically for young children who really can't connect delayed consequences.

And you've also. Or you or her, whatever. Both of you set it up on an interval basis. Right. So you're not saying oh, nice hugging sticker over this sticker.

Right.

You're doing it at these like check ins.

Yes. So it's at the end of the activity, whatever the activity is, then they have the opportunity to get that heart and then.

But during it, of course we're providing. Not me, I'm not there. Is providing tons of positive praise for nice sharing etc. And then because she's adding in a little bit more structure.

So like it's not just we're playing in the basement free for all.

Yeah. Right.

Okay. We're going into the basement and we're playing with, with the farm and another toy or something and she's sort of like decluttering.

The environment also helps.

Yeah.

To hopefully keep the kids sort of cooperative and collaborative in their play versus like doing their own things. And that way it's easier for her to Keep an eye on all the kids and be listening to each child.

Right.

And sort of tune in soon to a problem which actually does remind me of another step that we did initially which was looking at precursors to biting. And so he doesn't just come up and bite you. He'll usually say like, can I have a turn? I want that, Give that to me.

And then he'll scream and then he'll bite.

Okay. Yeah, yeah.

And so now if you can identify those precursors, then if I'm the daycare provider, I know as soon as I hear him say that's mine. Yeah, I gotta get there.

Right.

That's a precursor. And I'm gonna start my coaching here. Right. I'm gonna give him some ideas, like, okay, you could pick this toy even if I'm across the room.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, right. It's like starting with my coaching there.

Right. And giving him those. Yeah. And then in the moment, or you know, if you were there, you're going, hey, she said no.

Or she doesn't, she's not moving so we gotta move on or. Right. Stuff like that.

Yeah. I'd probably like just go in and try and distract her. Like, like give him a strategy right away. Like you can pick another toy.

Okay. Yeah, Right.

You can say I'm frustrate, like something. Whatever I've decided is like a good strategy there.

And then after that is when I'd come in and be like, you can see she still has a toy, she's still playing, it's her turn.

I see almost like the rational, like wait for, for it, like do that immediate coaching that's going to give him like the move on to something else, dude. So I gotta help you. That's what I'm saying. You can play with the dinosaur or you can whatever.

Yeah.

And then I'm gonna rationalize like once he's moved on so that the biting isn't gonna happen.

Exactly. But then with my 5 year old, I would probably give the rationale, you know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I feel like he could hear me in the moment and probably respond. Right. Whereas with my two and a half roll, I feel like getting in there with like a tip, like a coaching strategy for him. Yeah.

Is more effective because he's just younger and his impulse control is even lower.

Makes sense for sure.

So why do kids have these giant nuclear level meltdowns? And I think it's interesting to think about, like if we look at what psychology tells us and like patterns we see in the research. Right.

It's like, they're really frustrated. They've tried to tell us something and we don't get it. They're disappointed or they're not feeling heard.

And like, this is what we experience as well. Right. If I think about the things that really frustrate me with my husband, it's like not feeling heard or feeling disappointed.

And so it's like, when you really boil it all down, it makes a lot of sense. But then their brains are still developing. Ours are fully formed, Theirs are still developing.

Exactly. Like if you've ever been frustrated and yelled or cried in the bathtub or something, like, as an adult, Right.

Imagine how hard it is for your child who's where their brain is still forming. And like, yeah, it's so tricky. And so big feelings are normal.

Right?

It's so normal for all of us. Kids, adults, neurodivergent children, like everybody, Right.

And so what when we do think about our neurodivergent friends and learners, it can sometimes be even more pronounced. And sometimes they're either relying on caregivers for CO regulation because those regulation skills are developing.

But like we've talked about before, like, transitions can be that much more difficult because for some of our friends are kind of relying on routine. And then like, changing from one thing to the next can be hard. Or if the routine totally changes.

We were at a parent meeting just this morning and the teacher was saying, I wondered if dad was away on business because I noticed she was a little more dysregulated than normally what she is. And this is a neurodivergent friend who is an incredible learner and we love having her.

And the teacher was like, I hypothesized that dad was away cause he's such a stable person in her life and transitions are harder for her. And so she was having more moments of these, like, bigger meltdowns. And dad was like, yeah, I've been away.

Yeah, exactly. The teacher was saying, like, such a.

Compliment, you're a rock in her life. And like, such an important thing.

But at the same time, like, we're seeing when there's this disruption in her routine that the feelings are big and like, that we kind of expect. Right. Because she relies on him for a lot of that, like, CO regulation.

Yeah, exactly. And I think with neurodivergent children, teens, youth, adults, we know that there's brain differences, right?

And we know in particular that front part of the brain that helps with emotion regulation and impulse control is often different. And so automatically things are going to look different, right? Than we might see.

And things that maybe would be a small deal to us is a big deal because of those brain differences.

Like, you're saying, like, transitions are hard for all children, Particularly challenging for neurodivergent individuals who prefer things to be the same.

Yes.

Or the other thing that we can think about with neurodivergence is the sensory processing differences. Again, we hypothesize in the research that, like, that the. The environment might just be, like, louder for some. Right.

Like, they're hearing the hum of the furnace. Like, I used to work with a kid years, years ago that he'd be like, the furnace turned on. I was like, how in the world do you know that?

Yes.

And so if you think for him, right. Like, and I think most moms could definitely appreciate, right. Like, how hard it is when your kids are talking to you, your husband's talking to.

Music's playing, the TV's on, I'm trying to cook dinner. Right.

My brain is just like, yeah, right.

And so if you're neurodivergent and experience the world differently and it's louder or like you're clothes are like, scratchy and like, you know what I mean? Like, you have that input all the time, then similar to what I was saying with my son, like, your bucket is like 3/4 full at the best of times.

And then someone throws a transition at you, and it's just like, okay, well that was enough. I cannot control this anymore.

And then the layer of communication. Not everyone, but for some of our neurodivergent learners, communication can be challenging.

And so we're often working on functional communication and saying, like, what could you say in that? Or teaching them what you could say in that moment.

Like, instead of hitting someone when you have the door open, you're helping them say open or point to a picture that says open or something like that.

Yep. I think that for sure, across the lifespan.

Yeah.

And even myself, again, could, like, use some support sometimes communicating my ideas better. But then I think as we get older as well, we think about the social communication deficits that are often associated with being neurodivergent.

And so if understanding the perspectives of others doesn't come naturally to you, Right. Then that makes situations really frustrating. Right.

If you don't understand or it's not coming to you that they said no because of, I don't know, they have a fear of doing that activity. And you think it's like, personal that they're saying no to you. And you can see where there's like, A mismatch there.

And again that's where like in neurodivergent teens some of that social problem solving can be tricky because some of those skills that are a little bit more intuitive to a neurotypical teen are not. Not as easy for them to sort of just like it doesn't come as naturally, I guess.

Right, right. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

And so that's why we want to look at. Oftentimes we'll tie in some visual support, that co regulation piece. And then looking at the big picture here, right.

What are the skill deficits that would benefit you? And I'm working through this situation. Is it language? Is it perspective taking skills? Is it understanding the nuances of langu.

And idioms and that sort of thing?

Right, right.

I was thinking about the learner again that we were talking about in this parent meeting this morning. This amazing teacher was coming up with really cool strategies.

And so yeah, dad was away on a trip and she noticed that the child was a little bit more dysregulated in school. So the teacher in the SLP came up with a page of things that were just like kind of like calm down strategies. But it wasn't really abstract.

It was like, here's like I forgot six things that you can do if you're feeling kind of like your bucket is overflowing or gonna tip. And so it was like I need a snack water. I wanna break in the sensory room. I forget and then you know, I wanna tight squeeze or something like that.

And so what I was thinking in the meeting was this girl has vocal speech. She's a good communicator at times. But again, we know this about everyone. When our emotions are high, our language doesn't come like we want it to.

Like, you know, if you're in a fight with your. Either of us in a fight with our husbands, like I'm pro being like the most effective communicator at that moment.

But then if I'm a child, my it's harder to use my language effectively even if I do have language skills or like vocal commun. Speech. And then I was thinking about this learner and how she is a vocal communicator. She does communicate her needs sometimes.

But if my bucket's tipping, how nice.

To have that visual.

Then to just be like this is quick and easy and I can maybe get my knee met faster because my words just aren't coming out.

Exactly. And actually like really key point there is in this case you've. The school has identified a replacement behavior to Dysregulation. Right.

It's communication is the replacement behavior. Right. And the key with the replacement behavior is it needs to be easier than the current behavior.

Ah, yeah, right, right.

Because if it's harder, then of course again their brain's going to take the shortcut and take the easy way. Right.

And bring it back to your son.

Right.

Like he's kind of like he knows the words. But the quickest, maybe easier, easiest way is going to get that person to move. Then just go to biting. Yeah.

And it works. Like I said, it's very effective with grown ups with kids. Biting is a hard one.

Yeah.

And that's where it's like again, as a mom and a behavior analyst, I feel like so firmly that some, that we had to be like fast acting on this one because it is a tricky behavior.

Yeah, yeah. And then our learner in the school, so she often elopes or runs away.

And so the teacher was saying like, if she's running away then I got to get in there fast. And what you're saying is that replacement behavior has to be like not hard. Right. And so she's just pointing to a picture.

So someone's coming in with that visual and saying here, what can we do? And then they're like offering a couple quick choices with a visual that maybe. Okay, I can point to that rather than run down the hall for sure.

And you would potentially need to play around with the visual. Right. And see if. I think hers has nine options on it.

Oh, maybe it's nine. Yeah.

And so you might find like less options. Options is better depending. And then in her case, more options might actually be better because she does have some specific interests that she likes.

And so playing around with that could also help you like figure out which is a good replacement option.

And thinking about visuals.

The teacher did comment that they had adopted a strategy we were using in the clinic with the first then which of course we've talked about in like in our visuals episode and whatnot. But they have identified like six maybe things that she really loves. And so kind of again as like an antecedent strategy. Right.

Kind of getting ahead of it. Like, okay, yeah, we're doing work now, but then. And then she gets to pick something from the back to like use as her cool thing that happens next.

Right. And so tying this all together.

Right.

Talking about like, be these big feelings are so normal and like, what then can we do? Yeah. So like let's move into more of this, like coaching and let's talk about that.

I this is something I'm so passionate about now that I'm a mom for sure.

Yeah, same.

And one thing I've learned certainly as a mother is that this is the long game we're playing. I'm not going to see immediate impacts from this coaching that I'm doing.

I'm going to see some definitely steps forward, but these are like real life skills that I'm teaching you for a long time. And so I'm going to be your coach for a while. And so yeah, yes, please never leave. Life must always be a coach.

But yeah, and so when we want to come in and be that coach for them, what we want to do is be supportive. And so that is an open art because you need to not be aversive to them or like in this moment of disregulation, you need them to hear you.

And so we don't want to come in saying why are you crying? Yes, stop crying. You know, like that's not supportive.

And if I'm already spiraling and you're yelling at me, you're not co regulating me, you're actually making things worse for me. And so I'm not going to be able to listen to that. Right. And so really that's where that co regulator regulation piece is.

Like we have to try and stay regulated ourselves and often, sometimes easier said than done for sure. I have some parenting moments I'm not proud of and some that I'm really proud of.

Yeah.

And I think we can't be perfect.

I. I remember thinking about how again I'm gonna say moms, but there are some dads too and other kind of parents and grandparents, but are like superhuman sometimes.

Like our ability to let the things kind of flow off of us in those moments is a something you got to like work on and it's like a skill, like a muscle you got to flex and like really practice.

But I do feel I same like I have some really proud moments where I'm like, yeah, I'm like really calm right now in this storm because that's what you need from me. And like thank goodness.

But again, thankful we have this training and we know that like being able to co regulate you in this moment is like the most important thing. But I never thought of it as being like, yeah, you can't be aversive.

And like if you are going to accept me as your coach, we are in this together, then I can't start off with like a judgment or like my own loud voice. Why'd you do that?

Right. Like that's an opening conversation. And actually, like, really aligns with what we say to. In like, from a marriage counseling. Right.

Like psychology, behavior analysis, like, really does support this idea across a lifespan. This isn't even children specific. Right. My with the water heater and stuff.

Yesterday, frustrated and my husband came home knowing that I was very frustrated. Right. Like, I see you. I'm really sorry that this happened.

And then I was like, okay, I'm still like, mad, but instead of yelling at him, I was like, okay, thanks.

Yeah, exactly.

And so similarly with the kids, we want to come in and like, come in being that strong, like, I'm here for you. I don't have to like what you're doing right now. And I'm not saying that after this moment, we don't have to talk about something.

And I'm not saying what you're doing is okay. But I'm showing you that I'm common here for you. Okay.

That's an important distinction, though. You're right. It's not like I'm like, oh, you're fine. It's not like trying to be your best friend and like, push it under the rug.

Right. Like, be nice. Yes.

It's about co regulation. So I'm coming in with calmness, but not necessarily like, yeah, like just trying to make you happy in that moment.

Exactly. I don't want to just fix the problem for you.

Right.

Or I could, I guess, maybe depending on what the is problem. Illness. But before that, like, what we want to look for is these patterns. Right. And so similar with my son, like, the biting became a pattern.

It was many times. And so in with your children or your clients, you're looking for those patterns of things that are happening more than once.

And then we want to look at like, what are the functions. For sure. Once I've kind of figured that stuff out, then it's those precursor behaviors that I mentioned.

So what happens happens before the big freak out. Right. And sometimes with our neurodivergent learners, it can look different and be way more subtle.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

And so I think that's like a really important thing to look for is like, notice those small movements. Do their shoulders raised slightly. I was thinking of a training we were just in slightly different.

But they're saying that the client was like, raising their shoulders just like 3 inches or like 3 centimeters.

3 millimeters.

I mean, it was even like, so small.

Yeah.

I was like, how did you pick up on that?

Holy moly.

And so looking for those really small, subtle changes that come before the big sort of behavior that's concerning.

And that's something we're teaching our other staff members at the clinic right now. Like you said, we're just, we're doing training ourselves and trying to be really noticing these, we call them indicating behaviors.

And it can be essentially communicating your likes and dislikes.

Again, I'm going to go really high level here for the sake of the podcast, but it could just be like a slight turn away or a gentle push, I'm pushing your hand away or something like that. And so we want to get curious and be really observing for my specific learner, especially if they're neurodivergent and it's a really subtle shift.

What are the ways they're like, communicating to me with their body, even not even with words, often just like with a gesture or body or head turn or glance or something that they don't like that. And then you kind of picking up on those precursors, right?

Yeah, I think there's like two kind of buckets, certainly for neurodivergent friends that this could fall into. One is like those immediate precursors before the specific event.

So let's say it's like they don't want what you've offered and then they're screaming.

Yeah, yeah.

Right. And so maybe their precursor behavior is like, first they push it away and then they scream. Right. So that's one example of a precursor behavior.

The other thing that you might look for are changes that happen like throughout the day to try to figure out when they're like when their buckets fall. And so if their buckets full, are they pacing back and forth a bunch? Do they flap their hands more? Are they biting their hands more?

Are they grinding their teeth more? Right.

What are some of those other ways that they let me know that there are buckets full or like sometimes in the therapy world we'll use like, how's your engine running? Sort of idea. Right.

And so like picking up on like when their engines high and low and what that means for your neurodivergent child can be really helpful too, to figure out what type of coaching even to come in with. Right. If I know your bucket's like full.

Yeah, right.

This is not my teaching moment.

Yeah, fair.

If I can help solve this for you in this case, I will, you know, and then maybe we're doing some teaching later or I don't.

I'm going to think about it, you know, Whereas if I think that you're maybe at a calmer state, then I think I Can do way more good coaching with you right now. Right. So those are important things, I think.

Yeah, yeah. And I was thinking when you said like, maybe if you're identifying the buckets full, that's when we're coming in with like those.

I'm going to take some quiet time.

Or you're showing, maybe showing them some strategies like with your son, you're like, we just didn't go to daycare for three hours yesterday morning knowing that that would help him keep his bucket low. Right. And so if I'm in the classroom and I'm thinking of the learner, we were on the call with us morning.

If I'm noticing her bucket is like getting pretty full and I'm worried she's going to run out or you know, have a behavior that's not maybe productive. I might go in with what's like, I want to say like a calm down corner or like some sort of strategy maybe to like help regulate. Right.

And like give her like, let's go for a walk or something like that, if it's possible.

Usually I would come in for. So first I've identified the precursor cursor so that I know when I can jump in to be that coach. Yeah, yeah, right.

And then my first coaching strategy, like I said with my 2 year old, is always going to be communication.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So you come and you tell me what's up. Right. Like, no, I don't want that. Get away. Yeah, Yeah, I do. IPad, like whatever that communication piece is, Open the door, whatever. Right.

Come in with that first. I'm going to reinforce it as much as I can. And this is where as a parent, as a clinician, it's much easier to.

And when I say reinforce, I mean I'm going to follow through with whatever they've requested. Right, right. Where as a clinician, easy for me to sort of play around with these variables and gradually fade this out.

As a parent, I tried to keep this in mind with my son too. So my first phase was teaching him to say things like, I'm mad.

Yeah. Right.

Or I don't want that. And my response was, okay, and I take it away.

Right, right.

And I. So that would be my reinforcement. There is like trying to honor the communication like as like 100% of the time, really, if I could.

Yeah, right.

And that's where you might feel, feel like you're creating like bratty behavior because you're reinforcing. Right. But I am teaching him. You communicate to me and I've got you, man. I'M here.

Right.

And then I can work on sort of shaping the head and fine tuning some of those other skills. So saying I'm mad or like expressing your emotions would be like a really great first step to start it as a coach. Right.

And it's giving you the words to say, I'm mad. I don't like that.

Right.

So not just the emotion, but also what's a fix?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

What part of this is frustrating to you? You know?

Right. And that functional communication training or just doing all the time at the clinic, like, again.

And even if it's just like, open the door, then you're going in with that quick, like you're telling them, open, like I think you wanted to open. So I'm going to be short and sweet, give you that word to say in that moment rather than doing whatever the other thing is.

Exactly. And so as much as possible, I'm trying to open the door for them.

You know, as a parent, this is much more challenging because sometimes you just like, actually cannot. Yeah, I agree with my 5 year old. We've had conversations of, like, possible and impossible.

So that in those moments when he's dysregulated, I will say to him, this is a thing that is impossible. And we've talked about those words so that he knows. And truthfully, we had like a really hard day with him one day.

He was just like, I've never seen him like this. He was like crying and screaming for like half an hour. I was like, I just like, I cannot do. I can remember what the thing was.

I just remember, like, we couldn't solve it. And so after, like, it was terrible. He was so upset. He was so dysregulated. And then later that day, I was like, hey, can we talk about what happened?

I just want to, like, explain to you where I'm coming from. And so. And like, it didn't feel good for either of us. And we talked about that.

And I feel like for him now when I see, like, this is just impossible, then it does work for him to be like, okay, I got to switch my brain. And we also talk about that a.

Lot.

Because he doesn't want to feel that way again. Right. It was such a traumatic experience for all of us. Right. And so I do think some of that pre. Like, so then you can come in and do some teaching.

But it's not in the moment when they're dysregulated.

Yeah, yeah.

In the moment I'm giving you that functional communication, which means I'M getting you to say what gets your needs met. That's all it is. And then I'm trying my best to follow through. Right.

Or if I can't follow through, trying to, like, massage the message a little bit so that it feels like at least a small win.

Yeah. Like, the impossible. I often give examples to parents is like, it's 2am Your toddler woke up and they want to go play in the snow. That's impossible.

We're not doing that right now. Right, I hear you. We just, like, I can't do that. Exactly.

And then again, with neurodivergent children, sometimes those polari.

Polarizing terms or polar opposite terms of, like, possible and impossible are either really salient, and something's like, gotta be in one of those other buckets. And then I also find, though, like, some of the learners, it's a tricky concept of, like, what is truly impossible.

Yeah, true. Yeah. Yeah.

And so I think it's, like, a good thing to kind of, when we look at language. Right. Is we're taking a step back to see, like, oh, is this like, a deficit where you're actually misunderstanding the situation. Right, right.

And thinking about some of the language nuances that might be impacting your coaching.

Yeah, for sure. All right, so good chat about coaching. Let's talk. Now, you mentioned it earlier, like, one of the strategies that you used was. Was structure.

And like, you and the daycare provider talked about potentially, again, I don't know who came up with it, but, like, adding structure and then that's part of the system. So, like, how, you know, structure can actually help build that predictability. Good for kids, good for adults.

Also really good for our neurodiverse learners to have that predictability and structure.

Right. One example that comes to mind is I think all kids hate losing. And so my son hated losing. And we.

He would cry and get really upset if he was, like, about to lose or lost. And so what we put in for structure for that goal was we would talk about winning and losing.

Of course, like, we all win, we all lose, blah, blah, blah.

Right.

And then my structure was to pick a game where you win and lose frequently.

Yep. Right.

And so we played Spot it, my favorite game at our house. And, like, someone wins and loses pretty quickly in every game.

Yeah.

And like, yeah, every 10 seconds, you're winning or losing. And so then we have opportunities to, like, model good losing behavior, etc.

And then at the end of the game, there is still, like, an ultimate winner and loser. And so at this point, we've practiced a bunch. And then he knows that we're gonna do that kind of final check in too.

And so we add in this, like he knows how we're playing that game. And then we've primed him beforehand about winning and losing and what we can do.

And then at the end of the game, of course, I'm the grownup, I can like manipulate usually if I'm gonna win or gonna lose.

And so when we were first working on the game, working on winning and losing, I still let him win a lot of the the time and would sort of use that other metric I was talking about of like houses bucket right now. And so on days where it's a Saturday afternoon doing pretty good. I'm definitely going to smoke him. He's still in his pj.

He's having the best day of his life.

Yeah, Mama time.

Yes.

I can poke him here. And like, here's a great learning opportunity right before bed on like a Monday night. Like probably not his peak time, you know.

And so I would let him win more often and then. And just sort of like gradually faded in this idea of losing.

And then I think the other thing we can from a bigger picture with structure, of course, is like kids like predictability whether they're neurodivergent or not.

Exactly.

And so by adding structure in, they know what to expect. It takes like a little bit of that load off or maybe takes a little bit of that water out of that bucket.

Awesome. So we've talked about a lot with young kids.

Now let's talk about older kids or even school age kids and this whole idea, idea of like big emotions and sort of how we're handling that as professionals and as moms.

Yeah. It's again, so tricky and it's not linear.

No.

And I think that's such an important thing to remind yourself if you're seeing a setback. It's very normal.

And that was one thing, actually I didn't mention with my son is he's definitely going through some sort of developmental totally leap right now. He's always been very easy to go to strangers and extra like would seek them out. And lately he doesn't. Right. He wants to be close to me.

He's much more clingy than he ever was. And so it tells me that he's going through some sort of change, you know, and then we see that with these kids too.

So you might see like a step forward and a step backwards. So as kids get older, that doesn't really change, you know.

And Then that bucket idea of, like, how full their bucket is in their life on that day is a big factor, for sure.

And I'm seeing it. I've got a. My. My one daughter's almost nine, and I'm seeing, like, some hormonal shifts, too.

And, like, that's another factor that we're looking at for, like, youth and teens that.

And I say this was, like, so much empathy and kindness, because I know myself, too, sometimes, like, I'm so upset, but, like, then I'll realize later. I'm like, oh, okay. I'm like, it was potentially. It was like riding a hormone wave. I didn't even realize that. Made that feeling feel so much bigger.

And I can kind of see that with her, too, sometimes where she'll be like, I'm so upset, but I don't even know why I'm upset. And so she can't even articulate it in that moment.

Moment.

And then we'll come back and talk about it later. And so, you know, there's, like, different complexities sometimes that happen with, like, school, age and youth and teens, too.

Yeah, for sure. That would be. That is an interesting thing to factor in. And we don't, I think, don't really know a lot about it still.

Exactly.

Women's health in teenagers, we don't have a lot of understanding around that. Or at least I don't. But as kids get older, we do see some things that can. We can add on to. Right. We can be adding on to our coaching.

One thing that I've taught my son to do is, like, beyond that, I'm frustrated because is if we're still disagreeing, right. So he really wants to do something, and I'm like, no, we're not doing that.

I taught him to say, like, this is a big deal to me, because I think, again, as adults, what's a big deal to us and what's a big deal to our kids? It's very, very different. And so, like, this. This week, he brought home a used band aid. Yes. I love this story.

Used bandaid. Yeah.

And he was gonna collect it. And so him and I are, like, going back and forth, you know, I'm like, this belongs in the garbage. You cannot keep this. And he was like, no, no, I.

He washed it. It's perfect. No, no, this is garbage. You cannot keep this. This is, like, one of those times. Like, you just can't. And he did say to me.

He's like, but, mama, this is a big deal to me. My friend gave it to me, and in this case, I had to say, I really hear you, but it's just, like, not sanitary.

And then we had a discussion about germs and stuff, but other times, I've been like, all right, you know what? I can be flexible. And then again, I'm not reinforcing bratty behavior.

You've communicated to me that this is a big deal and that's what I'm reinforcing.

And how kind is that to be so compassionate? And I think, how cool to have that skill than in a marriage.

Exactly.

Maybe it's not a big deal to you, but it's a big deal to me. Or, you know, as business owners together, too. Like, you know, using that language like, this is actually a big deal to me.

Okay, Now I can, like, step back and reframe or something, so I like that idea. I was thinking about how you were saying, like, the band aid couldn't go on with that one, but you did have a nest in your car, right?

Like six weeks or something where you came. Oh, I thought it was gone. Okay, so forever. This, like, bird's nest and, like, you're going, okay. It's really important to him, this one.

I'm gonna let it go. I just love that.

Do you know what's, like, funny to me is I don't think it's that weird that we have a bird's nest in our car, but my neighbor has also brought it up and, like, uses it as a story to tell, like, about me. And I was like, I guess it's pretty flexible. I don't know.

Like, what difference does it make to me if he's got a weird little mess in his car seat cup holder? It's decorated with snail shells. I love it.

But you're talking about, like, some things.

Are impossible and some things. Okay.

If it's really important to him, and he's clearly communicated that, and you think this is going to help him, like, ride this wave of big feelings, then sure.

And, like, in this case, we did go back and forth, right? I was like, no, this can't come in the car. No, this can't. And then he's, like, starting to escalate. You know, he's getting upset.

And then he did turn it around, and he said, I really like this bird's nest. Sure, man. I guess we'll live with it, you know?

And we're still living with it. Yes, we still are.

Yes.

Awesome.

And so those older kids, like, we. See, you can, like, rationalize a little bit more, right? I can have a bit of a conversation with him. Like the band aid is like full of germs.

Then he knows what germs are and we can talk about that or talking about like a big deal and a little deal. And I. So I think those are somewhat.

So we can start adding on to our coaching as the kids are getting bigger, giving them more of a rationale, helping them understand like just the way the world works together, I think is a key thing that we can help our kids with.

Right.

Is instead of just saying no and because I said so.

Yeah, yeah.

It's like really explaining like why this doesn't make sense at this time. And whether you fall through on that boundary or not sort of depends on how the conversation goes.

But I do think we can sometimes we're missing opportunities, right. To have those conversations.

And then the other thing I love with older kids and do this at my house, as you know, is like really externalize the problem or like the anger by talking about your brain. And so I often, often will say, your brain is stuck. Yeah, you've got to tell your brain you got to move on from this.

And some times you'll name like your brain or come up with a name for like something that makes you flexible. Like that's kind of a cue that you can then use with your children. Right?

Yeah, I love that. I love that. And it reminds me of some of the ACT type strategies like acceptance and community. Oh my gosh. Acceptance and commitment. Commitment.

Thank you. Acceptance and communication. Acceptance and commitment therapy where you're like, I see you're really sticking to your values right now.

Or like your brain's on fire, but you're pushing through and like using some of those, that language, if you don't know it, we can take some of that in the show notes, but using some of those script type things in that moment. So you're, you're saying, okay, your brain's on fire, but I love how you're still pushing through or something like that.

Yeah. Or I'll say like, your brain is being really rigid right now. Not you're being rigid. Oh yeah, your brain is being rigid. Okay.

Right.

And then we can help there. I really love. And I will put it in this or have it already in my notes. The Fantastic Elastic Brain is a really nice book we have at the clinic.

And with my five year old, I would only read like one or two pages at a time and then talk about it. Whereas with an older kid you could probably read most of it.

And I like it because it's scientific and Takes like, it really teaches the kids about their brain, but then also helps them understand, like, what the brain does. And then in combination with that. I love these books by. I think her name is Julia Cook. Like, My Mouth Is a Volcano.

It's one of my favorite favorites.

But I love most of her books because it gives you so much insight into the child's brain. Like, she's written them from the kids perspective.

And so it's talking about, like, how they're feeling really wiggly, and I just, like, can't help it. And then I start yelling things.

And so I love those books too, because it really helps you to connect with your child and sort of be like, hey, this is what's happening for her. Do you feel that way too, right? Or just like a pause, kind of an open up the dialogue. So, yeah, I do.

Like, I do think, think, like, books can be a really nice option to have those conversations and just sort of dive a little bit deeper into what is the true antecedent here. Because like, we talked about, there's four main functions of behavior. Those are so broad. Right.

And there's so many nuances to it that really having those conversations with your child. And I know you and I have had so many aha moments where you're like, oh, that's what's bothering you. Okay.

I actually, I had a very different interpretation.

Yes, yes. And then books give you that jumping off point where you. They're kind of saying, oh, do you feel like that?

Cause that's how Susie in the book feels or whatever. And like, it's such a nice way to just approach the situation. And I was also thinking about.

We talk about this in our visuals episode, I think about the comic strip style. And so for like, older, like youth and teens, this is a strategy that we've discussed before.

But you can sort of just take a piece of paper and a pen and quick draw like a comic strip sort of thing.

Like, this is what this person's thinking and here's their thought bubbles and then what they're saying and like kind of of almost make it as if it's about someone else. Like, oh, here's John and he's thinking about this, right? Not. Not about themselves. So you're not saying, this is my learner.

This is like someone else. And I'm pretending to draw this scenario in my comic strips. And then you like, say, oh, how is this person thinking? And what could they say?

So it's another, like, nice coaching tool, right, for talking about emotions and like, oh, did you notice that like she was thinking that and that really hurt her feelings or something like that. So different kind of coaching things that you can do with teens that you maybe couldn't do with.

Well, obviously you can't do that with like your two year old kind of thing.

Exactly. Yeah. I think there's. That episode would be. Is full of practical tips to use.

And then I think some of the other things that change as kids get older is like delayed reinforcement. We want to mark that good behavior right away.

But I don't in like I was saying in my 2 year old's case, like I really felt it was important that we mark the behavior right away and that the consequence was pretty soon after too. Right. Like you're getting the sticker every interval, whereas with older kids their intervals could be much longer.

Yeah, actually.

Right.

And like if you're doing, I don't know why this came to me, but like staying dry at nighttime and had a sticker chart for that, like you might be able to go all week or something and then have your cash in.

Yeah, right.

Versus with like a younger child, you want those like immediate rewards because they don't really understand the passage of time. Like even my 5 year old has a really hard time understanding if something happened yesterday or today or actually even like two weeks ago. Exactly.

All muddied together for sure.

And here's where sometimes visuals can be helpful. And so then if it is like a chart, you know, you're showing like what is that passage of time until that thing happens.

Yeah, exactly.

And so I think as kids get older, really we're just like, we're trying to give them the tools they need to be successful in real life and sometimes externalizing some of that, that through books and writing things like comic strips or talking about like sort of the brain is this like separate being from you. Right. I found really helpful to keep like an open conversation in as a clinician and then also with my own son.

Yeah. And it's a kind way to talk about it.

You're not angry, your brain is on fire or like you're not an angry person, you know, so I'm not like kind of casting you in this light that feels really not nice. I'm just saying like you, your brain is on fire right now and it's acting like this.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then with our like neurodivergent friends, of course that executive functioning piece is just like trickier and trickier as you get older.

And it's like sort of figuring out what aspects of that are tricky for them. You know, what is the specific part of this that's tricky within the executive functioning part of the brain?

And that's where the last fantastic elastic book is very helpful because it goes through. Through all the different parts of the brain and what they're responsible for.

Yeah.

So, you know, what we're kind of trying to say here in this episode to kind of bring things in again is as we're wrapping up, you want to get curious. And that's something we started by talking about.

So you know, your son, which is where we started the podcast, talking about this sweet boy who is acting differently in a different environment. He's not a bad kid, but there are things happening that are not okay.

So we're setting that boundary where, you know, we talked a lot about what the strategies you're putting in and you know, stay tuned. We'll let you guys know how that's going. It's very, very challenging and it's not easy.

So we're trying to say, like, this isn't something that's super straightforward. You know, there's a lot of complexities to it.

And you know, it's abnormal for kids to go through these phases where like, especially at toddlers or if they're neurodivergent and their brains are on, you know, there's like, it's very normal to have these big emotions. And so then how do we help them in the moment?

What's the coaching that we can do before and then how do we get curious about the environment and like what's sort of leading up to this event?

Exactly.

It was like start early, teaching those strategies, modeling them, getting in there as a coach, setting that relationship up with your child that you're the coach, looking for those power patterns, watching out for precursor behaviors and finding something that can get their needs met in a better way. That replacement behavior.

Right. And that code regulation, start that early.

But also it's just so important, you know, even if you've got a teen not too late to start trying some of that code regulating now if their emotions are high and maybe didn't, you know, you guys didn't have that sort of knowledge even before.

So it's like never too late to start like co regulating and you using some of those strategies to help in those moments where things are just escalated.

Exactly, exactly. Big feelings or big learning opportunities.

We can observe coach model language and hopefully get in there and reward some of that good stuff they're doing too. Look for those moments.

Yeah, for sure. Like every moment that we're self regulating then is a win. And we want to celebrate that too.

Exactly. Thanks so much for listening everyone. See you next time.

See you next time.

Thank you.

Before we go, we want to remind our listeners the topics we discuss in the podcast are not a replacement for professional medical advice. Please contact a professional if you have questions.

And just a heads up, we'll use both identity first and person first language to respect different preferences. We'll also see treatment and therapy since we come from a clinical space, but always with respect and a focus on what works for each person.

See you next time.

Bye.