This podcast episode features a compelling discussion centered around the profound challenges and experiences associated with chronic illness, as exemplified through the insights of our guest, Renee Lehmann. We delve into the complexity of navigating faith amidst physical and emotional struggles, emphasizing the necessity of community support and open communication in such times. Renee articulates the intricate balance between gratitude and uncertainty, highlighting how one can maintain a spirit of thankfulness even in the face of unpredictable health challenges. Furthermore, she explores the significance of sharing personal testimonies, highlighting how vulnerability can foster connection and understanding within one's community. Ultimately, this episode seeks to provide encouragement and hope to those battling similar adversities, reinforcing the notion that one is not alone in their journey.

Takeaways:

• In navigating chronic illness, the interplay between gratitude and uncertainty is profound, illustrating how one can maintain a grateful heart amidst unpredictable health challenges.
• Community support plays an indispensable role during times of chronic illness, providing emotional and practical assistance that alleviates feelings of isolation and despair.
• The experience of silence following fervent prayer can be daunting, yet it invites a deeper understanding of faith that transcends mere expectation of immediate answers from God.
• Open and honest communication between spouses is crucial when facing chronic illness, as it fosters mutual understanding and grace during challenging times.
• The journey of chronic illness often leads to a reevaluation of personal identity and worth, as the individual learns to embrace their value beyond physical capabilities.
• The act of sharing one's testimony of faith and struggle can serve as a powerful tool for encouragement, not only for oneself but also for others facing similar trials.

Foreign.

Podcast.

So excited to have our friend of the podcast, Dick Foth, on another session of Back Channel with Foth.

And then we're going to jump into our interview with Renee Layman on When Faith has to Breathe.

Dick, welcome back to the podcast.

Always a joy to be here.

I learn stuff from you when I'm around you.

I learned more from.

More from you for sure.

More for sure.

So, Dick, two questions, same listener.

Have you faced health challenges in ministry or walked along someone who did?

I've had a variety of what I would call short term health challenges.

But I, that, yeah, I was small.

And you're resilient, right?

When you're older, talk about chronic illness.

I have one.

It's called aging, you know, and you find out you can't do as much physically as you used to, you know, and, and, and emotionally you're, you often will land on different places and, and all of that affects your spirit.

I think, you know, that that's all interactive.

But, but the, the idea of something that's chronic is a real challenge because chronic suggests that it's.

Fixing it is not either easy or able, you're not able to fix it.

You just have to work through it, with it, around it, so forth.

So I haven't, I haven't had what I would call chronic illness.

I don't, I don't have diabetes, I don't have intense arthritis any of, but I live with somebody who has chronic illness.

And can I just go ahead and sort of expand on that a little bit?

Sure, yeah.

Yeah.

In, in terms of taking the, the long view, the greatest challenge I have seen, not just with, with Ruth's heart situation, because he said heart issues over the last dozen years, but with other people that I've walked with and worked with, is that chronic things impact our, our understanding of our value and our identity.

And, and when the chronic thing inhibits what I, my natural gifts, my spiritual gifts, my, my dreams and desires, that's when it gets challenging.

I actually chatted with Ruth about this question.

I said, what, what things are in place?

She said, if, if you don't have hope going forward in, in what you do or with the things that you're used to doing, then you have to learn something else.

Or, or you, if you don't see hope in the things that you have quote in your life, traditionally done.

You need to pray for another thing.

I think it's important with chronic illness not to be in denial about the fact that you're mad, you're angry sometimes, that circumstances.

Sometimes you can get angry at God.

You say, oh, I don't want to get angry at God.

Well, you know, he can handle your anger.

He can handle all the other stuff in your life.

Your anger is not a problem for him.

Just don't hang on to it.

It'll kill you.

You know, so if you, if you have a chronic illness or, or you are with somebody, one of her experience mine in observing is to, to be asked the question how are you?

That's not a great question to ask somebody who is in chronic illness because either, either you feel like you have to explain.

Here we go again.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Especially if you're in a public setting where you're meeting a bunch of people or a small group or whatever.

That's one thing.

Or the other thing is you have to lie.

You say, whoa, what do you mean lie?

Well, somebody says, how are you?

And you don't want to answer.

So you say, I'm good.

Yeah, I'm fine.

Yeah.

And you're not good and you're not fine.

So let's not.

Then that adds another layer of frustration to your, to your life.

But I think Ruth would say, and others that I talked to is that when you have chronic things, you talk to God a lot.

You pray and you do the thing that's in front of you Again.

In a previous program, I mentioned this phrase by the yard.

It's hard by the inch.

It's a cinch.

I take this day, I take this moment.

And if in fact rejoicing.

You know, some, some programs ago, we talked about joy.

Yeah.

And joy and chronic illness oftentimes don't exist in the same room.

Wow.

But to, but to take a step of faith and said.

And say, I'm going to say thank you, Lord, for my past life.

I don't thank you for this illness, but I.

But I thank you for the privilege of talking so forth.

That's good, Dick.

And that, that, that their second question was just about keeping the long view in mind.

Any other thoughts on that part of it?

I think just that in a. I think I probably slid into that second question in my previous answer, but I think, I think the people that I have been with, talked to, ministered to, or with who have chronic things, the ones that find ways to be grateful in the middle of it.

Gratitude and longevity go together.

Yeah.

A a grateful heart is an antidote to, to anxiety.

Yeah.

And a grateful heart affects our physical lives as well.

And you know, I don't have a formula for that.

I don't, I can't say an equation.

Sure.

But, but I do think that that the long view that we take when we have chronic something.

When I think I'll always have this or it's only going to get worse.

Having gratitude for what has happened.

The Ebenezer mindset up to this place.

The Lord has helped me and even though my body might be wasting away, I'm still going to be grateful for this and this and this.

I think it I it in an observation and in practice it makes the difference.

Yeah.

Good word.

Good word, Dick.

Always enjoy our time on Back Channel with foth and thanks to you and Ruth Ruth for giving her insights on the answers to those two questions.

Going to go ahead and jump into our interview with Renee Layman on When Faith has to Breathe.

Well, there's no time better than now to get started.

So here we go.

Greetings and welcome back to the Clarity Podcast.

So excited to be here with a new friend of the podcast, Renee.

Welcome to the podcast.

Thank you so much.

I'm really honored to be on and I just thank you for having me today.

Yeah, we're excited.

So this is a fun fact.

Renee and I went to Southeastern together way back and so it's a lot of years and I used to be a young person and now I'm an old person.

But anyway, that's the way.

That's the way life goes.

So, Renee, if somebody didn't go to SEU with you, they don't go to the, the local church where you serve at.

And yeah.

Will you just share a little bit about yourself before we jump in today to your timely book?

That was an encouragement to me and I think will be an encouragement to many who listen in.

So will you share a little bit about yourself?

Yeah, sure.

Well, I'm married to David Layman and we've been married actually as of last month, 18 years.

Congratulations.

It is.

We have two daughters and they have preteen and teenager, so that's always one age.

And we pass our church in Princeton, New Jersey.

We've been doing that now for ten and a half years.

So New Jersey has really become home for us.

We are both Eastern Shore people, so we're Marylanders and of course stay on the eastern side of things.

But really other than that, I'm, you know, wife, mom, done some work here and There different places, but mostly a pastor most of my life and just supporting my husband at the moment in different ways and doing what I can to support my family.

Yeah.

And grew up in a ministry family.

I've had the honor to meet your mom and dad and so.

Yeah.

What was it like growing up in a ministry family?

I think, you know, when you started as a young age, you don't really know the difference until maybe you get older.

So it just kind of was life.

But we definitely saw where it was hard.

The pressure of being what we should be for everyone else or the example.

And of course, it can be difficult when you're so coming through a small church as well.

We were expected to really be a part in every facet, you know, helping to clean the church, set up and, you know, be a part of things, all that good stuff.

So it makes it a little bit difficult over time.

But as you get older, you look back and see the blessing of being in a home like that and being raised with parents who truly love the Lord and the blessing of, you know, seeing that.

So your mom and your mom and dad were a blessing to.

To Heather and I.

You know, when you're young, I was young when we first start went out as missionaries and to have people believe in you and be an encouragement to you, man, it means a ton.

And each and every time I come came in contact with your dad and mom, such an encouragement and their belief and I think that is.

I'm grateful and thankful for it and always will be.

So.

So, Renee, you've written a book and I had the hon endorse it.

And one of the things you.

To write a memoir about physical illness and the mental health challenges you've been through, that takes a lot of courage.

And so where did you find the courage to do this?

Honestly, it didn't really begin with the intentions of writing a book.

I was processing all kinds of emotions and feelings, and some of it just felt like way too big to even comprehend.

And it was a whole new world for me.

Coming out of really being healthy most of my life and then being hit with a sickness that didn't seem to be going away and then wasn't something that was ending quickly.

So as that continues to really you battle that, it really battles you, not only physically, but mentally and emotionally.

And I really didn't have a place where I felt safe that I could talk about it.

So.

So in that I've always been someone who journals throughout my life and, you know, you feel like the pages of your journal is a safe place.

But I actually did it on the computer because as age sets in, so does carpal tunnel.

It's easier to type than write.

Sure.

So I actually decided to kind of journal online in my own.

On my own computer, you know, privately, and just just really through tears.

And sometimes I couldn't even believe some of the things I was writing and just process.

It just kind of helped, like a safe place as nobody else was reading it.

And I just felt like sometimes it was between me and the Lord and I could just put it all out there and if I needed to delete it.

And it just really kind of started that way.

And as I started just processing it more and writing more, I really started seeing that this was shaping into something that could be used or helpful for others that were also going through a similar season or similar situation of chronic illness or health issues.

Yeah.

And I think that's the courage.

Right.

You've taken it from a private discipline, which was journaling, which I wish I could say I'm awesome.

I'm not.

I've tried it like 10 times, and I can't get there digitally, books and journals.

But you.

Private discipline.

But then you.

That take.

That takes a lot of courage to say, I want to take that from a private discipline to say, I want to use.

I want to step out and encourage and share my story.

So as you said, to be an encouragement to other people.

And I. I applaud you for doing that.

It takes a lot of courage to be able to share, and I'm grateful and thankful that you have.

So in what you share about being hard to.

It's being hard to breathe.

So in the middle of a physical and emotional challenge, in what ways is it hard to breathe?

Yeah, I think because even for my book, When Faith has to Breathe, I even use that title because I feel like encompasses not only my faith journey, but also with health.

When you're facing chronic illness or a diagnosis that just feels so heavy, it almost kind of knocks the wind out of you, and then you're really gasping, in a sense, so to speak, for your placement and how to process and breathe through, like, what's happening.

What's happening to my life.

There's just so many thoughts that can spiral out of control, so many emotions, just the isolation, the changes that can happen.

It just really starts to feel like you can't catch a breath almost in every direction that you face.

And even though you might have people around you that are encouraging, sometimes the encouragement feels like it's choking in a weird way because everybody has, I think I share a little bit in my book just about the fact that everybody has a ailment of oh, you should try this or this holistic thing or oh, you mean to meet so and so, or have you watched so and so on YouTube?

Because they have, you know, the answer to whatever, you know.

And so it really becomes almost suffocating because you're just trying to navigate with the doctor and your family and yourself what is happening to my world, what's happening to my body, let alone, you know, thousands of other people just pouring all of this advice on that seems helpful to them, but it's not in the moment it actually makes you feel like you're drowning in advice and it almost feels like you can't catch a breath even in that of what is safe, what's not safe, you know, so it just really becomes overwhelming.

Yeah.

In a response.

So rather, and I think I would be guilty of doing that too, you know, when somebody comes to see me in the clinic, I think they are looking for, you know, they are looking for an answer.

But just in everyday life, I think sometimes I've fail at that because my own inner anxiety, I try to point people to a person or resource or whatever and then it's almost like, hey, I've done it and then I'm going to move on.

So.

And I don't think I mean that out of a mean spirit or a wrong spirit, but I think in all of us, sometimes we don't know what to say and there can be anxiety producing in us.

So Renee, for somebody listening in, maybe they have a friend or a colleague or a parent or a brother or sister that's working through a chronic illness or has a chronic illness, what encouragement, what, what would, what would you have rather heard or what would have been less suffocating and allowed you to breathe rather than being something that would.

Well intentioned, Right.

We're not saying these people are mean spirited, they're well intentioned and they, they're trying to do the best.

But what about giving you the space to breathe rather than being something that be suffocating?

Is that a fair question?

Yeah, that is.

And, and I think even in saying that, I love the fact that you said I wasn't mean spirited in that, you know, when you were saying that, think that's all of us.

Because even in this process, myself, I even did it before I came into this because everybody wants everyone, you know, you don't want anyone to suffer.

Everybody wants them to take this pill or here's this prayer, and bam, your life is great, and we don't have to watch you have any hardship.

And I think that's really the heart behind it.

But I think the ones that.

That really felt like they see me and I could feel the care was when they really wouldn't give advice, it was just like, let me be with you in this moment.

You know, what do you need?

What's happening?

How can I pray for you?

And it kind of just would sometimes when they would come up and just be like, you know what.

How are you feeling?

What's happening right now with you?

I don't want the.

It's okay.

You know, sometimes we do that so people will back off.

I think you talk about that, too in your book of just like, oh, we're okay, we're okay.

Even in illness, you can just get into the.

Like, it's.

I'm good today.

Yeah, you don't really want to go through it all.

But when people break through that and really show that caring heart, you feel seen.

And I think that's where, you know, especially people that have family members going through that.

I know.

Even for me, my sister was struggling with it so much of understanding, because she wanted me to go places and do things with her, and I had to keep saying no.

And so one day she just called me and she just said, okay, I. I really.

I don't understand.

I don't understand what you're going through.

I don't understand what you're facing.

Can you just tell me, like, what is it like when you flare and what's happening?

What.

What do you.

What are your thoughts?

What's your body experiencing?

You know, what's a typical day like for you?

And when I actually sat down on the phone and I started explaining all the fears, all the anxiety that goes with a typical day with chronic illness and just the fatigue and all of that, she almost didn't have anything to say back.

And then she kind of was in silence for a little bit and just.

She even cried and said, I had no idea.

And after that, became like, my biggest advocate and many times would call me and say, listen, I'm just calling.

Are you good?

Are you bad?

You know, you can just throw it at me.

And became almost one of my biggest supporters and just felt like a safe place.

Yeah, awesome, awesome.

And it's.

It's a value to have people that we.

We can consider safe, for sure.

So one of the things that was challenging for me and honestly paused when I read it, was you write about the silence that can follow a sincere prayer.

And, and you, you're, you're someone with deep faith, right?

So you're someone with deep faith.

You've prayed a sincere prayer, but then there's silence.

Can you share more about it?

Yeah, I, it's, it's one of the things you don't anticipate, I think, and growing up in the faith and in church, you know, there's that quick, the Lord answers, yes, no, maybe, you know, and so we're always like, there's always an answer and we kind of just go with that.

And then you have a situation like this where you're, you really just feel your heart cry and your soul to the Lord and you're just really just the every muster of faith or ounce in your body is crying out to the Lord, Lord, heal me, you know, release me from the suffering.

And sometimes there was silence on the other end.

And it almost feels like there's this canyon, like big canyon that you have to pass over.

And that's where I think it almost rattled me because I thought, why am I experiencing this?

Am I lacking faith?

Does the Lord not care?

But as I kept pressing in, and I think that's where for me there was that choice.

And I think everybody has that choice is am I going to lean in and say, God, I trust you, even though my feelings and what I'm thinking might not align with what I expect?

Or am I going to turn away and be like, oh, whatever, he doesn't care then?

Because I didn't get the answer I wanted.

And so I was just like, no, that's not the God I know.

I know he cares.

I know he's been faithful.

So I just pressed in and kept, you know, kept asking and kept seeking him.

And then what I found was he was there in it.

So like when David talks about when he's walking through the valley, that the Lord was with him in it.

And I all of a sudden had that sense like I'm, you know, you're still going through all this stuff, but I'm walking with you in it.

And then that was like even more reassuring than an answer.

It's just like, okay, Lord, if you're walking with me, whatever I face, I know I can face it with you.

And it kind of just settled it some.

But in that moment of the prior, when you're feeling that silence, it can really rattle you and think like, okay, what's happening here?

Why am I not getting a clear cut answer immediately?

Like, I think I should.

Yeah.

And specifically Coming from our faith background.

Right.

We're people of action.

You know, we're at least.

At least the church I grew up in, it was an action church.

We're Pentecostal, where people have action, not necessarily so contemplative.

And so when there's that silence, it is a.

It's not necessarily what you know, as you've shared, is not what we expect.

One of the other.

The other questions that why the silence?

But then you also, which I think is inevitable thing.

When we go through a challenging thing in life, you.

That you wrestled with, with the question why me?

Can you.

Can.

Can you share about that wrestling?

Yeah, I think it's a natural question for most, and I think it even goes along the lines of, like, even what you're talking about a lot of times, if.

If you've grown up in the church or even just maybe our Americanized gospel, I'll say a little bit, is just that if you do all the right things, if you make all the right choices, you should have a blessed outcome.

And so up until that point, I felt like, not that I haven't made wrong choices per se, but in the grand scheme of things, in our human way of looking at stuff, I was like, I'm a good person.

Like, I should have a decent life here.

I shouldn't have any suffering.

And so that's where too, is like, why me, Lord?

Like, why do I have to go through this?

Like, I don't have anything that I really warrant this.

And so I think that's where sometimes the why me can come from.

A lack of trust in the Lord and what he has, but also in the reality that we.

And so then when we aren't seeing that happen, it's like, well, why is this happening to me?

Because this is the expectation that I have on my life or what I think I deserve.

And so I think sometimes we have this idea of a reward system that I've put in my faith nuggets or tokens and I should be receiving these blessings or, you know, a good life.

And when that doesn't match, then it's like, oh, wait, well, I've done this and this and this.

I've done all the things I'm supposed to do.

I attend church, I read, I pray, you know, the Bible.

And so it's like, well, then, you know, why am I not seeing these outcomes?

And it's understanding that, you know, the outcomes aren't a answer to our faith.

So, you know, we can see things unfolding and that it's not A reflection of our faith.

It can just be a reflection of a fallen world and that we live in a world full of sin and disease and death, and sometimes it can't be helped.

Yeah.

And I think.

I think I appreciated you sharing it and how you unpacked it, because it's.

It's a common question.

I don't think it's necessarily a common question that we talk about openly.

I think when we go through a trying time, it is.

I share.

Oftentimes when people share something, the first question is, how does it impact me?

Right.

And so when you're struggling with a chronic illness, you do want.

I think we do.

And I valued you.

Just you were open and transparent to share about it.

And I think it allows other people to know that this is common.

That is, as you said, God's with me and understanding that he controls the outcomes.

You and I don't control outcomes as much as we would.

And I think that is that idea.

If we put so certain nuggets in certain places, because that helps, can maybe control the outcomes.

But I think at the end of the day, he controls outcomes.

And having the faith to trust him with that, even when it's not going how we expected, it definitely builds our faith.

One of the other things I found super valuable and I think hopefully to be an encouragement.

I know it'll be encouragement for spouses listening in.

So specifically, you write about your husband and how he supported you in this time and in this season.

And as you've.

You've.

You've had a challenge.

Walk through the challenge of a chronic illness.

So.

So what advice could you share from another for a spouse that's listening, whether that's a man or a woman, and they have.

Their spouse is struggling with a chronic illness.

Yeah.

Could you share maybe some words of encouragement, some things you've learned in the process and.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think the most important thing is to communicate honestly with each other and give each other a lot of grace.

I think it was something I was.

We've had 18 years of marriage, so we've had moments where, you know, you're working out some of those communication issues, period, just in regular life.

And this was a very hard strain on our marriage because it just rocked us from a different perspective.

Perspective.

And just changed so many things.

And a lot of times, I think, even for myself is you might be the one diagnosed, but you're not the only one walking through it.

Wow.

And so your family is walking through it with you, and we can forget that even as being for Me, I was so consumed with my sickness and just trying to survive sometimes that I forgot it affected my family and my husband.

And so that part of even the person who is sick understanding, giving them grace, that they're walking through it just as much as you are, even though they aren't experiencing all of the maybe physical or mental load, they're still feeling that load of watching you have to suffer and that emotional load of wanting you heal, praying for you, trying to, you know, be a strength and support you as best as possible.

So there were times where we just had to sit down and talk because the normal of what you had in life totally shifts.

And so at first, you hold on to that, thinking, oh, it's going to change.

It's just a couple of weeks.

You know, you're kind of like, it's going to change anymore.

It's going to go back to normal.

But what happens if it doesn't go back to normal?

And so you have to make those adjustments of, if I can never do a load of laundry, you know, are you going to do the load or laundry thing?

So that's where even David, he had to pick up, really, the homemaker hat while he was carrying the provider hat and the pastor hat.

And at some point, you know, there was times where I felt like he was almost a single dad because he was dealing with not only everything at the church and with work, but making sure the girls were at school, getting them up, getting them ready, feeding them, them coming home, dealing with their homework, dealing with dinner because I couldn't help at all.

And then the house totally falling apart because he had to do the laundry, he had to clean the house, he had to cook, he had to go shopping.

So he was really carrying all of this on him for an extensive period.

And it really weighed on both of us because I felt the guilt of him having to carry it all.

And then he felt that pressure that he had to carry it because he's trying to help me.

But then there was no end in sight.

And so then it really starts to build.

So we finally had to come together, and he had to be like, hey, I can't.

I'm feeling like I can't do this anymore.

How can we balance this?

And then, you know, just grace for both of us.

You know, we definitely cried with each other.

We've, you know, just shared our frustrations with each other of, you know, just how things are molding and shifting and just allowing that to form into something new because it is.

Our family life is different than what it was priority.

And our relationship as a marriage and husband and wife is different than it was prior.

So just allowing those shifts and changes and just communicating that and being able to hear each other, because I think it's hard for both.

He wanted his wife back the way it was prior to sickness.

You know, I wanted to be back prior.

It's like everybody wants to go backwards and be like, I wish it was like this, you know, but then you have to accept the reality that it's not.

And so how can we make this a healthy whole family functioning in the best way possible with where we're at right now in this.

Wow.

Very insightful and very encouraging to be able to listen to each other and the theme of the book, be able to breathe with each other.

And I think that's when you're running at a frantic pace and.

Or walking with a challenging illness, chronic illness, that willingness to sit down, listen to each other, breathe together, and invite the Holy Spirit into those situations.

And recognizing, I would imagine that it's not.

You don't just do that once.

I would imagine it's, you know, it's an hour by hour, day by day thing.

You know, it's a continual process.

Because as you've shared, chronic illness is not something that just goes away and it's not something that's a quick fix.

Right.

And the ebbs and flows of that.

Yeah.

And even giving, I think yourself the ability to grieve in that, because you will grieve what was okay.

And so giving that grace for that of the.

The loss of what was, to be able to embrace the new and ask the Lord to move in that and say, okay, Lord, how can you work in this now and how can you help our marriage?

I feel like we're even stronger now because we've allowed the Lord to work in that and really reshape it into something new and allow him to work within that.

Yeah.

One of the other things I thought was super interesting that you wrote about was this idea of holding gratitude and uncertainty in the same breath.

So I'm a guy that, you know, tries to.

I like predictability.

I like consistency.

You know, I think sometimes uncertainty creates instability.

But you.

But you're right about.

We can have the heart of gratitude and recognize their uncertainty all in the same.

Yeah.

And we can hold those together.

So would you share more about that?

Sure.

It's definitely something that has come over time.

It wasn't in the beginning, but basically with chronic illness, there is the uncertainty really in every day.

I know for you Know, basically, this is my routine, this is my schedule with my medicine, and so and so forth.

And typically my best hours are the morning till about noon or 1.

And then the uncertainty starts to hit in the afternoon.

I don't know what my day is going to be like in the sense of, do I have enough energy for the rest of the day?

Did I use too much energy on a task in the morning and now I have no more reserves?

Did I get off schedule slightly and, you know, not take my medicine exactly on time or eat on time?

And then is that going to make me flare or be sick later in the day?

So there's that uncertainty of it, but then there's.

In those moments, it almost seems odd.

But in the morning, when I do wake up and I actually wake up not feeling like a sick person, although I don't know what the day is going to be like, I am grateful.

So it's like, lord, thank you, that I forgot I was sick for a moment.

And then I have to take medicine.

And so it's like, you can hold those moments throughout the day.

I'll actually have moments where I'm like, wow, Lord, I was able to do this task, and I feel like I have more energy that I'm not totally spent and I might be able to do another task.

And so I can hold on to those moments with gratitude and realize that the Lord sustains me in different ways, yet knowing I might go down in the afternoon or be ill tonight.

So it's like kind of this weird tension that you hold on both ends, but you can hold both at the same time.

Yeah, very interesting.

The thought of waking up and not feeling like a sick person, you know, I mean, just that if that's so.

I guess what I'm asking is, so if you're struggling with a chronic illness, is that like, one of the first thoughts that you wake up with or you wake up and is that how you feel?

Is that a fair assumption or not?

Yeah, it's really where you just wake up and you know right away your body's just like, blah.

The best way I could describe it is like, for someone who doesn't have chronic illness is when.

When you are sick, if you have a sinus cold or a flu and you're fighting that and, you know, you take that medicine, you wake up the next day hoping that the medicine has hit it enough.

And so you wake up and you're like, oh, man, I still feel it.

Right?

Still feel that sickness in you.

Or your body's like, you Just know you're not 100%.

So you're like, oh, hey, man, another day.

And then you go two or three days or five days, but by the end of it, you finally are like, okay, it's done.

I'm out of it.

Where chronic illness is like, your body always knows it's sick.

So when you wake up, you just have this sense of like, I'm not well.

And sometimes it can manifest in the sense of actual, you know, symptoms of pain or discomfort, or there's all kinds of random things that can happen with.

Especially with Crohn's.

Or it can be joint pain, stomach pain.

There's just all kinds of random things that kind of go with it.

So sometimes you can even wake up with like, oh, man, my knee is, like, aching really bad today.

I have no idea why.

So that can be a reminder.

Sometimes I wonder too, if it's age, but sometimes it definitely will kind of present as it goes.

I'm thinking, ah, this is definitely something off.

So anyway, it kind of represents like that.

And so I'm very grateful.

Especially recently, I've had more days where I wake up and I'm like, oh, I forgot that I even had medicine.

I just woke up like a normal person and didn't even think about it.

And those are days where I'm very grateful.

Like, oh, wow, I forgot what it's like not to have to be sick.

Yeah.

Wow.

And the blessing to be able to be cognizant of that and acknowledge that, I think is a gift.

You write about the importance of community, and so when you're traversing it, walking through, living with a chronic illness, importance of community, and how's community helped help you as you walk through this?

Yeah.

Even for us, we actually have no family very nearby, I guess I should say.

I know there's some people that definitely are much further away from their family than us.

Our closest family is three to four hours.

But that still kind of makes a gap if you need somebody.

So we really, our community was our church family.

And then even people that we've connected with, even missionaries through the ministry and work that we've had through our family, it really kind of created this community near and far of where people were reaching out in different ways and just making us feel like not only were we lifted, we could feel we were lifted in prayer.

You know, people constantly praying for us, sending us encouraging things, but just knowing that people were thinking of us and seeing us.

And, you know, just even another example were close friends of my family from years ago.

My dad actually grew up with him.

And they were.

I think they were in each other's weddings and, you know, just a long history of friendship and connection there.

And they live in Florida at this time.

And she actually found out about my situation, I think it was last year or a year and a half ago.

And she reached out to me through the Internet and just said, hey, can I get your address?

Where's your home address?

I said, okay, sure.

And next thing I know, she had her whole Bible study group praying for me, not only regularly, but they all were sending me cards, handwritten cards with Bible verses, prayers.

And I was getting them, like one after the other, one after the other in the mail.

Like each day I was opening up a new one.

And it was just.

That's just one example of just many of the ways the Lord used community just to really encourage me and the family.

And then, of course, the other way was, you know, people even just jumping in with meals and, you know, knowing that housework needs to be done.

They would just show up and say, because you.

Sometimes you're embarrassed.

You know, you're like, we haven't swept in a couple weeks.

This is pretty bad.

You know, and they're just like, we don't care.

Everybody has to live.

We're gonna.

We're gonn for you.

And they'd come in and clean, or they'd come in and say, hey, we'll do your laundry.

And, you know, just sit there in full baskets of laundry for me, because it's been, you know, sitting there all week or something.

So in different ways, people really stepped up, and we appreciated the ones that were here that could physically do things and those that were even far doing things in different ways of sending encouraging notes or prayers or letting us know that they were thinking of us.

And I really feel like that helped carry us.

Yes, I'm sure.

And the community.

The community around.

What a blessing.

And for people to be prompted by the Holy Spirit.

And like you said, to send cards, that's pretty.

Especially this day and age, handwritten cards, they mean a lot.

At least they mean a lot to me.

So.

So how did you learn?

Or how did you know who you could share your story with?

Obviously, you're in ministry.

There's.

There's joys and challenges of being in ministry and in general, a public figure.

Right.

Whether you want or not, you're, you know, it's a public.

People see you.

There's expectations that come with that.

So how did you navigate, like, who you could share your story with how much of a story you would share with them.

You want to be transparent, but.

And balance all that, all the pieces to that.

So any thoughts for somebody?

Maybe that's.

A majority of people listen to this are missionaries and they're thinking maybe they.

Or maybe they're walking through a chronic illness and they're trying to figure out how do I figure out who to share this with?

Not share this with and also not suffering in.

In silence.

Because I think the.

The.

The enemy can use loneliness and that we're, you know, not.

The willingness to share can be a challenge too.

So anyway, I don't know if that any of that makes sense, but I do think it's important if you'd be willing to share about it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think you definitely hit like a big one about the enemy planting those I.

Thoughts of just the isolation and, you know, really wanting to keep our voice silent.

And so I even know for myself that.

That it was definitely hard because again, you're trying to navigate this the best you can on your, you know, you are your own and like you said, like, who's safe to be able to share with and who's not.

And because I did have people that were not giving me the best input.

And then you really start to feel like I don't want to talk to anyone because I don't need any more judgment or, you know, pressure of, you know, what God should or shouldn't be doing.

I'm just trying to make it through and survive or, you know, make it to the next day.

And so I really.

I feel like I did open up here and there and share.

Like, even I preached a couple sermons that just really got put in my heart sharing some of this, but just really a small window.

I think I felt like I was trying to give them a little bit of a window because people really didn't have a clue or an idea of what was going on kind of behind the door.

It's really hard to comprehend when someone is super active and involved and then is no longer really able to.

People really can't grab their mind around that sometimes.

And then I really have to say that the Lord just really started working in my own heart because I did get fearful.

I didn't really want to share with anyone.

I didn't want to talk to anyone about it.

I just wanted to keep it close, which did make me feel more isolated.

And the ethnic really started working on that where he wants you to feel like you're the only one.

Nobody knows how you feel.

He really Wants to isolate us.

And then when he gets us into that isolation, that's when he really can bombard us with all kinds of thoughts and feelings and.

And lies.

And, you know, he doesn't really have any new tricks.

He does the same things, but we still fall for them.

And so.

But when you recognize it, and you recognize he's trying to isolate, relate to, that's when it's good to definitely move through that with the Holy Spirit and speak to it and really have others come around you and, you know, start talking and start sharing.

And so the Lord just really kind of started putting that verse where it's like, it's the.

It's by the word of their testimony.

And I just started kind of thinking about that, Lord, that.

That's.

That's our weapon against the enemy.

It's the word of our testimony.

And so even.

And I think we feel like, especially in my case, that it's not a testimony if we don't have the clear expectation of healing, that everybody thinks, step one, I'm sick or I need healing.

Step two, in Jesus name, someone prays for you.

You know, the elders pray on you, whatever, bam.

And you come up Step three with your praise report.

You know, this is what happened.

And, and that does.

I've seen it a zillion times.

I know that God does it.

And so we kind of have this framework that it's, you know, this and then this and this and this, and then not understanding that we can still have a word testimony that the enemy doesn't want to get out.

When we speak of God's faithfulness in our situation.

And so when we have the courage to start sharing that with and really telling people, hey, I didn't have the outcome I wanted, but I know God was faithful.

And I can trust God with whatever he's doing in my life, and I could trust him with where he's taking it.

Even though I don't understand what's going on and I don't have all the answers, I know he's faithful and he's good.

And so that's where we can start speaking to others.

Like, hey, you might be going through some rough problems and not seeing a light at the end of the tunnel, but I know God's faithful to walk with you.

Even in the valley, even in the darkness, he's with you.

And so that's where.

When we can just kind of step out and be obedient to the Holy Spirit and to the Lord and through his word, saying, hey, it's through our Testimony, that is what breaks people free.

And they can see God's faithfulness.

We can kind of walk in that and then see others rise up in those situations or be encouraged even in their situation.

Good word.

And, yeah, it's a very good word.

Renee, I'm going to ask you.

I. I had.

I'm.

Well, I got one more question for you, and then we'll ask you.

If you pray for us, you write that even if has become your anthem, could you share a little bit about that?

And then I'm going to ask you to pray for us.

Sure.

Well, I go more in depth in my book, so definitely you can get the whole story there.

And I'll try to a little concise here, but it was something that the Lord was stirring in my heart years ago, and, you know, with Shabra, Meshach and Abednego, and even if he doesn't deliver us, we know God is able.

And so the Lord just kept speaking to me, like, even if I don't heal you, you know, are you going to trust me?

Are you going to keep walking?

Are you going to stay faithful?

And so that became that anthem for me because I still say it to myself.

Yeah.

Especially when, you know, sometimes it's looking bleak or I'm feeling a flare coming on.

I'm like, okay, Lord, even if.

Even if I know you're good and you're able, you're more than able to deliver me.

But even if you don't, I'm going to serve you with every breath that I have.

Good word.

Good word.

Renee, it's been an honor to be with you today.

And we'll put links in the show notes for people where they can get your book.

But you pray for us today that God will use what you shared to encourage those who've listened to it.

Sure.

Lord, we just lift you up today.

We just thank you for all that you are.

And I just thank you for the opportunity to be able to testify to your faithfulness, Lord, and your goodness and that others will be able to hear what you do, Lord.

And you are good and you are faithful.

And so, Lord, I don't know what they're walking through, but you know, you know everything that they're feeling, you know everything that they're facing right now, Lord.

So I just ask that.

That as they listen to and they hear the sound of my voice, Lord, that they would be comforted by your presence and your peace, Lord, that they would know that you're with them no matter what they're facing, no matter what they're going through, Lord, if they're seeking healing, Lord, I ask that you would heal them if they need hope, Lord, that you would give them hope again if there's joy missing.

Lord, that you would reignite the joy in their heart once again.

Lord, that your Holy Spirit would just come upon them and your peace that surpasses understanding would guard their heart and mind.

Lord, that they would be able to see you in this circumstance and know that you are good and faithful.

Lord, I ask that you would work on their behalf, that they would see your hand as only you can do.

Lord, we love you.

You are good.

We thank you.

In the mighty name of Jesus, we say amen.

Amen.

Sam.