What does it take to be a great manager? Host of the Supermanagers podcast, Aydin Mirzaee, is on a mission to find out. The CEO of Fellow.app speaks to managers from leading companies to discover what traits make good leaders great and how to drive success. In this episode, he shares his findings and explains what makes a “Supermanager.”
Press play to hear Aydin’s thoughts on…
How Practice Makes Perfect
“You have to treat this just like a professional athlete would. Just like a professional athlete would do drills and practice and look back on their week and figure out what conversations they had and how they went and how much feedback did they give and how did the feedback get received. The world's best managers are also practicing, and they're very deliberate about all these things."
The Risks of Imitation
“Often, we try and look at a leader or a manager, and we'll try and emulate, right. And we'll try and be like them. And the big takeaway I had was that you really have to try and be like yourself. It's not about emulating anybody else. You just have to really understand yourself, just like you understand your team. You have to understand yourself, understand what your strengths are, and what the authentic you looks like, and then be that person, not trying to necessarily emulate others.”
The Bottom Line
“The thing that I hear most often is, it's all about the people. At the end of the day, you really have to treat everyone like real people, really understand them, and treat them like human beings.”
One of the things that we say
Speaker:often is great managers are not
Speaker:born, they're made. The good
Speaker:news is that it's never too late.
Speaker:It's something that you can keep
Speaker:working on, and with enough
Speaker:effort, enough repetition, you
Speaker:too can be a supermanager.
Speaker:That's Aydin Mirzaee, CEO of
Speaker:Fellow.app, a fast-growing SaaS
Speaker:company that helps teams have
Speaker:better, more productive meetings.
Speaker:As part of his role at Fellow,
Speaker:Aydin is the host of the "
Speaker:SuperManagers Podcast," a weekly
Speaker:show where he interviews leaders
Speaker:from across the business
Speaker:spectrum to tease out the habits,
Speaker:attitudes, and experiences that
Speaker:helped them be amazing managers.
Speaker:Aydin has been leading Fellow.
Speaker:app for almost five years.
Speaker:Before that, he was the co-
Speaker:founder of Fluidware, a
Speaker:bootstrapped company that he
Speaker:helped grow from to a $12
Speaker:million run rate and almost 100
Speaker:employees. After six years, he
Speaker:led Fluidware through an
Speaker:acquisition by SurveyMonkey.
Speaker:Aydin is passionate about
Speaker:entrepreneurship. He is also the
Speaker:co-founder of freshfounders.com,
Speaker:a non-profit organization with
Speaker:the vision to create a community
Speaker:of young business leaders in
Speaker:every city around the world. In
Speaker:this episode, Aydin will delve
Speaker:into some of the lessons he's
Speaker:learned, both from talking to so
Speaker:many successful leaders and from
Speaker:being a successful entrepreneur
Speaker:himself. Are great leaders born
Speaker:or made? Get ready for a
Speaker:thoughtful discussion on that
Speaker:topic and more. This is Daniel
Speaker:Saks, co-CEO of AppDirect, and
Speaker:it's time to decode
Speaker:supermanagers.
Speaker:Welcome to "Decoding Digital," a
Speaker:podcast for innovators looking
Speaker:to thrive in the digital economy.
Speaker:I'm your host, Daniel Saks, and
Speaker:I'll sit down with other
Speaker:founders, CEOs, and changemakers
Speaker:to decode the trends that are
Speaker:transforming the way we work.
Speaker:Let's decode. Aydin, thanks so
Speaker:much for joining the podcast
Speaker:today. I love this because I was
Speaker:recently on your podcast,
Speaker:SuperManagers, and I know you've
Speaker:been running it for almost a
Speaker:year now and you just broke 50
Speaker:episodes. Congrats on
Speaker:SuperManagers and the 50-episode
Speaker:mark.
Speaker:Thank you. It's crazy to think
Speaker:it's been a year that we've been
Speaker:doing it. It's exciting. It's
Speaker:the sort of thing that once you
Speaker:get passionate about it, I could
Speaker:see myself doing this forever.
Speaker:It's awesome.
Speaker:There's nothing better than
Speaker:chatting with interesting people.
Speaker:I find it to be great. When we
Speaker:talk about supermanagers,
Speaker:there's an obvious question for
Speaker:you, which is what's a
Speaker:supermanager? Beyond that, what
Speaker:are some of the takeaways that
Speaker:you've had from interviewing so
Speaker:many leaders and supermanagers?
Speaker:That's a good question. The term
Speaker:supermanagers, it's a term that
Speaker:we invented. We have to talk
Speaker:about what a manager is. We
Speaker:think that the purpose of a
Speaker:manager is through their
Speaker:involvement, you'll get a lot
Speaker:more out of the team than if
Speaker:they were not involved with the
Speaker:team. A supermanager to us is
Speaker:someone, through their
Speaker:involvement, you get almost 10
Speaker:times as much impact than if
Speaker:they were not involved with the
Speaker:team. They have a lot of
Speaker:characteristics. One of our
Speaker:favorite characteristics is that
Speaker:they're always working on their
Speaker:craft. They never take it for
Speaker:granted. It's like continuously
Speaker:focusing on becoming a better
Speaker:manager and leader. It's
Speaker:something that they think about,
Speaker:they practice. They're very
Speaker:deliberate. Just like an athlete
Speaker:would practice their free throws
Speaker:and do that on a consistent
Speaker:basis, supermanagers are
Speaker:constantly figuring out how they
Speaker:can do what they do better.
Speaker:That's the broad premise of it.
Speaker:It's not everyone, but you'll
Speaker:notice that the ones that have
Speaker:that mentality and mindset,
Speaker:they're always thinking about
Speaker:how they can get better. That's
Speaker:why you were a great fit for the
Speaker:podcast. That's the sort of
Speaker:person that we've tried to have
Speaker:on.
Speaker:Thanks so much. I'm curious,
Speaker:what are the common threads of
Speaker:things that supermanagers are
Speaker:consistently trying to work on?
Speaker:There are a lot of things that
Speaker:we've figured out that
Speaker:supermanagers do and also a lot
Speaker:of lessons that we've taken from
Speaker:them. One of the things is, for
Speaker:example, they're always focused
Speaker:on understanding their
Speaker:employees on an individual level.
Speaker:Part of that is there's this
Speaker:great quote from Peter
Speaker:Drucker. He basically says, "
Speaker:Effective executives understand
Speaker:and build on the strengths of
Speaker:themselves or team and their
Speaker:organization to make everyone
Speaker:productive and to eliminate
Speaker:weakness." Part of that is
Speaker:they're always trying to figure
Speaker:out, what are each person's
Speaker:strengths? What are their
Speaker:weaknesses? It's not to say
Speaker:individually remove a weakness,
Speaker:but it's more, "Let's figure out
Speaker:how, through using a team, we
Speaker:can actually eliminate weakness
Speaker:in that way through the use of a
Speaker:team." They're always
Speaker:understanding who their team is
Speaker:on an individual level. There's
Speaker:a lot of great examples that I
Speaker:can bring up, and I've written a
Speaker:few of these. One of them was
Speaker:they're always focusing on
Speaker:different models that you can
Speaker:employ, that there's no one-size-
Speaker:fits-all for these things. One
Speaker:of the things is we had John
Speaker:Michel, who is the now-leaving
Speaker:but CTO at Shopify and one of
Speaker:the things that we talked about
Speaker:with him was this concept of a
Speaker:25:50:25 leadership model. What
Speaker:that means is a lot of people
Speaker:will come in and they'll say
Speaker:that, "Oh, well, it's servant
Speaker:leadership. My job is strictly
Speaker:to just unblock other people."
Speaker:What's interesting about the
Speaker:model that, for example, he
Speaker:talked about was 25 percent of
Speaker:the time, I'll be your manager
Speaker:and I'll instruct you and guide
Speaker:you. 25 percent of the time,
Speaker:you'll tell me what to do and
Speaker:what you need from me. 50
Speaker:percent of the time, for example,
Speaker:we're peers. We're going to work
Speaker:together and we're going to
Speaker:brainstorm, and this is going to
Speaker:be a very collaborative process.
Speaker:There's a lot of individual
Speaker:lessons like that. For example,
Speaker:we had Vlad, the CEO of Webflow,
Speaker:on. This is something that I've
Speaker:heard from a bunch of other
Speaker:people as well. Oftentimes, we
Speaker:try and look at a leader or a
Speaker:manager and we'll try and
Speaker:emulate and we'll try and be
Speaker:like them. The big takeaway I
Speaker:had from that episode was that
Speaker:you have to try and be like
Speaker:yourself. It's not about
Speaker:emulating anybody else. Just
Speaker:like you understand your team,
Speaker:you have to understand yourself,
Speaker:understand what your strengths
Speaker:are and what the authentic you
Speaker:looks like, and then be that
Speaker:person, not trying necessarily
Speaker:emulate others. There's a bunch
Speaker:more, and I can list these out.
Speaker:There's been a lot of great
Speaker:guests. One of the main things
Speaker:for me is after every episode, I
Speaker:always learn something. Even if
Speaker:nobody else listens to the
Speaker:episodes, it still works,
Speaker:because I'm learning a lot.
Speaker:Obviously, people will listen
Speaker:and learn, too.
Speaker:For sure. It's such a great
Speaker:group that you've been chatting
Speaker:with. I've had a lot of
Speaker:takeaways from your podcast.
Speaker:When it comes to a lot of these
Speaker:supermanagers that you talk to,
Speaker:one of the things that I've
Speaker:observed is a lot of them have
Speaker:had to make adjustments in their
Speaker:communication style and their
Speaker:motivation style, particularly
Speaker:over the last year. What are
Speaker:some of the strategies that
Speaker:you've seen be particularly
Speaker:relevant in this digital-first
Speaker:environment?
Speaker:One of the things that we
Speaker:focused on was trying to get a
Speaker:lot of guests that had a lot
Speaker:more experience with remote and
Speaker:had a lot of things that they
Speaker:could contribute so that
Speaker:everybody else could learn from
Speaker:what they had been doing. One
Speaker:of the guests that we had on --
Speaker:it was very early in the
Speaker:pandemic -- Job, who is the CEO
Speaker:at remote.com. Before that, he
Speaker:was VP of product at GitLab,
Speaker:which used to be the world's
Speaker:largest remote company. One of
Speaker:the things that we talked about
Speaker:right from the beginning was
Speaker:that remote is harder. It's
Speaker:harder to run a remote company.
Speaker:You have to do a lot more. You
Speaker:have to be more purposeful, you
Speaker:have to think about things in
Speaker:different ways, but it is worth
Speaker:it. The reason that it can
Speaker:become worth it is because you
Speaker:get to access broader talent in
Speaker:so many other places. It's not
Speaker:like it's not going to be more
Speaker:work. Some people might have
Speaker:assumed that, "Oh, we're just
Speaker:going to get into remote and
Speaker:it's going to be the same amount
Speaker:of work." It's a different
Speaker:ballgame. That was a really
Speaker:interesting thing. The other
Speaker:interesting thing that we talked
Speaker:about with Job was this concept
Speaker:of documenting everything.
Speaker:There's this culture that they
Speaker:promoted at GitLab, and
Speaker:certainly, something that we've
Speaker:also adopted at Fellow, which is
Speaker:this concept of respond with a
Speaker:link. When people ask you a
Speaker:question, don't give them the
Speaker:answer. Go write it in the wiki,
Speaker:and then respond with a link, so
Speaker:now it's documented. It was
Speaker:interesting when he first told
Speaker:me about that. I said, "Oh, but
Speaker:that's a lot more work. It's
Speaker:going to be slower. It's a lot
Speaker:more work." He brought up a very
Speaker:good point, which is, "No.
Speaker:Actually, it's faster. It's a
Speaker:lot faster." The reason is you
Speaker:only answer your question once.
Speaker:It's not just about having a
Speaker:repository of knowledge. It's
Speaker:also about when you have people
Speaker:in different time zones, imagine
Speaker:if you want to ask a question at
Speaker:5:00 PM someone else's time zone
Speaker:and they're leaving. Now, you
Speaker:have to wait for the next day.
Speaker:The more that you can think
Speaker:about documentation and
Speaker:responding with a link for a
Speaker:company know-how and knowledge
Speaker:and processes, it speeds things
Speaker:up. You just have to operate
Speaker:differently once everybody is
Speaker:not in the same physical
Speaker:location and all the same rules
Speaker:don't apply.
Speaker:Can you tell us a little bit
Speaker:more about the founding premise
Speaker:of Fellow and how you help
Speaker:managers become supermanagers?
Speaker:There are a bunch of things.
Speaker:When we originally started the
Speaker:company, one of the things that
Speaker:we started thinking about is
Speaker:software enables behavior change.
Speaker:One of the things with work-from-
Speaker:anywhere, and work-from-remote,
Speaker:and hybrid, and all these
Speaker:different concepts is you have
Speaker:to use technology to make these
Speaker:sorts of communications possible.
Speaker:Technology can help behavior
Speaker:change. One of the things that
Speaker:we thought about when starting
Speaker:the company was we looked across
Speaker:the board and we said, "
Speaker:Everybody in every sector has
Speaker:software for them. Salespeople
Speaker:may have Salesforce. Marketing
Speaker:people may have a Marketo or a
Speaker:HubSpot, but nobody had built a
Speaker:tool for managers of teams and
Speaker:taken that lens." When we first
Speaker:started the company, we wanted
Speaker:to focus on building what we
Speaker:like to call a manager's co-
Speaker:pilot. In the same way that you
Speaker:hire an account executive and
Speaker:they might use Salesforce, you
Speaker:would use Fellow, and Fellow
Speaker:would be that manager's co-pilot.
Speaker:As we started digging in, what
Speaker:was interesting was we saw that
Speaker:where managers spend most of
Speaker:their time is in meetings. Over
Speaker:50 percent of their week is
Speaker:spent in meetings. When you take
Speaker:that lens, it's such a massive
Speaker:area to help and deliver impact.
Speaker:Over the course of time, what
Speaker:Fellow's become is we like to
Speaker:call it a meeting productivity
Speaker:and team management tool. We
Speaker:lead with a meeting-centric
Speaker:approach. What we like to say is, "
Speaker:Turn all the chaos of meetings
Speaker:into productive work sessions,"
Speaker:and then we layer on team
Speaker:management concepts, one-on-ones,
Speaker:and feedback, and goal setting.
Speaker:Those things are married in but
Speaker:with a meeting-centric approach.
Speaker:There's a lot of interesting
Speaker:things about meetings as it
Speaker:relates to digital and remote.
Speaker:For example, a very common
Speaker:concept, I don't know how many
Speaker:of these you do, Dan, at
Speaker:AppDirect, but do you have
Speaker:asynchronous meetings? Is that a
Speaker:practice you employ, at least in
Speaker:your teams?
Speaker:It's not. I would love to learn
Speaker:more about it.
Speaker:One of the things that people
Speaker:realized is when we went all
Speaker:remote, part of it was, "Let's
Speaker:do the exact same thing we did
Speaker:in the office, but let's run
Speaker:those exact same meetings
Speaker:remotely." The dynamic changes.
Speaker:There's certain meetings, and
Speaker:specifically, status meetings,
Speaker:and stand-up meetings, and those
Speaker:sorts of things are the first to
Speaker:go. Any sort of status meeting
Speaker:doesn't actually need for
Speaker:everybody to be there at the
Speaker:same time. It's a matter of
Speaker:making sure that those things,
Speaker:people are putting in their
Speaker:updates at a certain point in
Speaker:time by a certain date and time,
Speaker:and then making sure that
Speaker:information is available for
Speaker:everyone. That's, in general,
Speaker:the concept of an asynchronous
Speaker:meeting. It's something where
Speaker:not everybody needs to do it at
Speaker:the same time. People can finish
Speaker:this on their own time, but then
Speaker:you can view things afterwards.
Speaker:Not every meeting should be an
Speaker:asynchronous meeting. For
Speaker:example, one-on-ones should not
Speaker:be asynchronous, because there's
Speaker:a lot of purposes to it, but
Speaker:relationship building, for
Speaker:example, is a critical part of a
Speaker:one-on-one meeting. Those are
Speaker:the sorts of things, for example,
Speaker:that you should do on a
Speaker:synchronous basis. If there is
Speaker:discussion and debate, a lot of
Speaker:those things benefit from real-
Speaker:time interaction. Other things
Speaker:don't need to be that way, and
Speaker:so they can be done on an
Speaker:asynchronous basis. That
Speaker:concept brings more time in
Speaker:people's days, allows their
Speaker:schedules to be more flexible so
Speaker:that you're not in a situation
Speaker:where all you're doing is back-
Speaker:to-back meetings. That style of
Speaker:communication is also more than
Speaker:that. For example, we had Sarah
Speaker:Milstein on our podcast. At the
Speaker:time, she was director of
Speaker:engineering at MailChimp. One of
Speaker:the things that we talked about
Speaker:was this concept of, if not
Speaker:everybody needs to be there
Speaker:synchronously...Sometimes, you
Speaker:have a presentation or a meeting
Speaker:that is basically like a
Speaker:presentation format. If that
Speaker:doesn't need to be synchronous
Speaker:and you're going to get
Speaker:everybody to read the deck or
Speaker:watch the video of someone
Speaker:presenting, how do you know that
Speaker:that's effective? Part of the
Speaker:culture that also needs to
Speaker:change is the way that we react
Speaker:to these things. If you're
Speaker:using a tool like Slack or MS
Speaker:Teams, it's about reacting to
Speaker:messages. You read a message,
Speaker:it's about putting eye emojis or
Speaker:some reaction to say, "Yes, I
Speaker:read this." Or, commenting on
Speaker:things on purpose, or when you
Speaker:distribute a presentation or
Speaker:something important, checking in
Speaker:with people after the fact and
Speaker:literally going out and
Speaker:messaging them and saying, "Hey,
Speaker:what did you think?" and
Speaker:proactively looking for comments
Speaker:and feedback. The communication
Speaker:style does change in a world
Speaker:where not everybody's always in
Speaker:the same physical location.
Speaker:Those are some of the things
Speaker:that we think about when
Speaker:building the product and
Speaker:building Fellow is, how can we
Speaker:make all those workflows easy to
Speaker:do and build all the right
Speaker:habits for people who want to
Speaker:use the product?
Speaker:What's your vision for how
Speaker:technology can help support a
Speaker:manager, and how far do you
Speaker:think this technology can go?
Speaker:The technology can go a really,
Speaker:really long way. It starts from
Speaker:habit building. It can create
Speaker:the framework so that you can
Speaker:basically make sure that things
Speaker:that you need to do, that you do
Speaker:them often and in the right
Speaker:workflow and in the right format.
Speaker:When it comes to an organization,
Speaker:it's always hard to make sure
Speaker:that everybody is doing things
Speaker:the same way. You don't want it
Speaker:to be copy and paste across the
Speaker:board, but broadly, at the same
Speaker:structural way that, say, one-on-
Speaker:ones are held or meetings are
Speaker:held across the organization, to
Speaker:have a consistent approach
Speaker:across the board. Why wouldn't
Speaker:you want to find workflows that
Speaker:work and make sure that
Speaker:everybody does them? That's one
Speaker:thing. The second thing is data.
Speaker:Having data at your fingertips
Speaker:and looking at this stuff and
Speaker:understanding, based on the data,
Speaker:what decisions you should make,
Speaker:that starts to go a long way.
Speaker:The third layer as we get more
Speaker:futuristic is now we start to
Speaker:get suggestions on what we
Speaker:should do. This is where the
Speaker:software can aid us beyond just
Speaker:showing us data. It can also
Speaker:start to make recommendations on, "
Speaker:Hey, you should talk about this
Speaker:topic in your one-on-one," or, "
Speaker:You should really meet with this
Speaker:person," or, "You should really
Speaker:consider using this workflow for
Speaker:that meeting because this is the
Speaker:type of meeting that you said it
Speaker:was." Over the course of time,
Speaker:first, you start with the basics
Speaker:of, "OK, here's workflows." Then,
Speaker:there's, "Here's data to make
Speaker:better decisions." Third is now
Speaker:this offer starts to make
Speaker:suggestions on how you can
Speaker:implement a bunch of these
Speaker:things. I have some
Speaker:controversial views on this, too.
Speaker:I think that, for example, in
Speaker:the long term, as technology
Speaker:starts to get better, and this
Speaker:is maybe a controversial
Speaker:viewpoint. I think you fast-
Speaker:forward 10 years from now,
Speaker:technology will get so good that
Speaker:you're going to be in a
Speaker:situation where you and I might
Speaker:maybe hang out socially, but the
Speaker:second that we want to say, "Hey,
Speaker:let's talk business and let's
Speaker:actually have the meeting,"
Speaker:we'll want to use technology,
Speaker:and that'll be a better meeting.
Speaker:A meeting done using technology
Speaker:or a remote meeting might be
Speaker:better than an in-person
Speaker:experience. The reason is while
Speaker:we're talking and we mention
Speaker:something, or I mention a Peter
Speaker:Drucker, I get pulled up
Speaker:information about him on the
Speaker:side. We talk about another
Speaker:person and the action item for
Speaker:that person gets recorded and
Speaker:gets sent to them right away.
Speaker:There's a lot that technology
Speaker:can do. We look at it based on
Speaker:the technology we have today and
Speaker:we're like, "Well, clearly, in-
Speaker:person interactions are the only
Speaker:way to go." Imagine now, 10
Speaker:years of everybody focusing on
Speaker:this over the next decade, it's
Speaker:going to be game-changing.
Speaker:Super powerful. What happens
Speaker:when we think about AI, as well
Speaker:as contextual search, as well as
Speaker:augmented reality, and voice-to-
Speaker:text, and other elements? Do you
Speaker:feel like we're going to be
Speaker:interacting traditionally in
Speaker:conversations like this, or are
Speaker:we going to be interacting in
Speaker:totally different ways?
Speaker:I think it's going to be very
Speaker:different. A couple of
Speaker:interesting things that I've
Speaker:been thinking about here. One of
Speaker:the things about being on camera
Speaker:and the way that we are and
Speaker:we're conducting this
Speaker:conversation is you have no idea
Speaker:how tall I am. I've my whole
Speaker:life, been basically the
Speaker:shortest person in the room. All
Speaker:of a sudden, on video, that's
Speaker:democratizing. It doesn't matter.
Speaker:I started my first company when
Speaker:I was very young, and I know you
Speaker:basically started straight out
Speaker:of school. Selling enterprise
Speaker:companies as a very young person,
Speaker:especially in some rooms, it's
Speaker:nice to have some grey hair
Speaker:sometimes. I think that over the
Speaker:course of time, it might be that
Speaker:we have different filters when
Speaker:we have conversations, or maybe
Speaker:my voice has changed a little
Speaker:bit. A lot of these things may
Speaker:sound crazy as we're talking
Speaker:about them. It's not normal for
Speaker:me to have an avatar or a
Speaker:slightly different persona when
Speaker:I'm talking to different people.
Speaker:That, over the course of time,
Speaker:might become something that's
Speaker:the norm as we try and
Speaker:democratize the way that people
Speaker:can interact with others.
Speaker:That's one of the things that,
Speaker:for example, I think it's going
Speaker:to change. It's not going to
Speaker:matter if you're young or old,
Speaker:or how tall or short you are. A
Speaker:lot of those things will start
Speaker:to change. The other thing that
Speaker:I think is going to start to
Speaker:change is, again, if you get
Speaker:very futuristic about this, you
Speaker:can replicate a lot of these
Speaker:environments. Certainly, there's
Speaker:a lot of technology in the world
Speaker:of AR and VR, where you can
Speaker:replicate being amongst a lot of
Speaker:people and interacting with them.
Speaker:I know there's a company that's
Speaker:doing some cool things in this
Speaker:space called Spatial VR. They're
Speaker:replicating in-person
Speaker:interactions in the virtual
Speaker:space. You mentioned AI and how
Speaker:can AI help with these sorts of
Speaker:things? Imagine if you and I are
Speaker:talking. I am the super
Speaker:interesting person, so you would
Speaker:never get bored if I'm talking.
Speaker:Say that you were, I could get a
Speaker:flag that, "Dan's not paying
Speaker:attention now," or, "This
Speaker:meeting's productivity score is
Speaker:low because three people are
Speaker:clearly browsing or doing
Speaker:something else," or, "You're
Speaker:going off-topic," or, "This
Speaker:person has talked too much
Speaker:during this meeting." There's a
Speaker:lot of things that we can do
Speaker:live, even as meetings and
Speaker:interactions are starting to
Speaker:happen, to guide those
Speaker:interactions into a good place.
Speaker:I have to tell you about a cool
Speaker:tool that I've been using. Do
Speaker:you ski?
Speaker:Yeah, of course.
Speaker:Cool. Have you used a product
Speaker:called Carv?
Speaker:No.
Speaker:This is an incredible product.
Speaker:You insert these sensors into
Speaker:your ski boots. It can connect
Speaker:your AirPods. What happens is
Speaker:it's got 250 sensors on each
Speaker:foot, and it's guiding you on
Speaker:how you ski, and it's scoring
Speaker:you for every single run, how
Speaker:you did, how is your balance?
Speaker:Every measure that you can
Speaker:imagine, it scores every run.
Speaker:Then, when you're on the
Speaker:chairlift, it tells you and can
Speaker:coach you. There's even live
Speaker:coaching so that you can listen
Speaker:to it while you're skiing. It's
Speaker:instructing you on how to do
Speaker:things. That's the analogy of
Speaker:sports. All we have to do is
Speaker:take those things, and then
Speaker:apply them to knowledge work so
Speaker:that we can make ourselves
Speaker:productive and performing at our
Speaker:best in the knowledge work that
Speaker:we do.
Speaker:What's preventing that
Speaker:technology from existing today?
Speaker:The example of we're in a
Speaker:meeting with 20 people and ten
Speaker:of them are tuned out on their
Speaker:computers, browsing other stuff,
Speaker:is that technology out there
Speaker:today?
Speaker:We're focusing on it. It's just
Speaker:a matter of, what should
Speaker:everybody focus on? The events
Speaker:of the last year or so has made
Speaker:it so that it's become
Speaker:acceptable that we can have more
Speaker:digital so that you don't have
Speaker:to fly to another city just to
Speaker:have a meeting, and then go back.
Speaker:Before, these were not
Speaker:acceptable things. If I got on
Speaker:the phone with you and you were,
Speaker:say, in your kitchen, I might
Speaker:maybe think that, "Oh, that
Speaker:might be unprofessional." Now,
Speaker:it's an accepted norm. Now that
Speaker:we've run this big experiment,
Speaker:you'll start to see that not
Speaker:only at Fellow, but many, many
Speaker:other companies, they have been
Speaker:and they will continue to
Speaker:basically introduce a lot of new
Speaker:technology on improving our
Speaker:meetings and interactions. This
Speaker:is a space that you're going to
Speaker:see all this attention and all
Speaker:the smart minds are now focused
Speaker:on this area, and you're going
Speaker:to see a lot more good things
Speaker:come out of it.
Speaker:Got it. How, at Fellow, do you
Speaker:calibrate managers? At AppDirect,
Speaker:we think about a calibration,
Speaker:what we call a performance grid.
Speaker:We look at the what and the how,
Speaker:the what being the output based
Speaker:on your OKRs, or objectives and
Speaker:key results, and you're KPIs,
Speaker:which are your key performance
Speaker:indicators. The how is values
Speaker:and competencies, so values
Speaker:being, how do you execute based
Speaker:on our values, which include
Speaker:humility and positive mental
Speaker:attitude -- we coach on that --
Speaker:but also competencies such as
Speaker:communication skills and coding
Speaker:skills or other skills that you
Speaker:may need? We have tracks to
Speaker:help enable our teams and
Speaker:managers to progress to be able
Speaker:to excel at not only being able
Speaker:to maintain and execute on their
Speaker:own OKRs and KPIs but if they
Speaker:become a manager, how they can
Speaker:do that on behalf of their team.
Speaker:That's our methodology on how to
Speaker:calibrate a manager. How do you
Speaker:think about grooming and
Speaker:calibrating managers at Fellow?
Speaker:This is a very good question
Speaker:because your approach makes a
Speaker:lot of sense. You had all the
Speaker:right elements in there. There
Speaker:is a performance element,
Speaker:there's a cultural element. All
Speaker:those things are very important.
Speaker:Some of the things that we've
Speaker:come across that a lot of other
Speaker:people have talked about is
Speaker:factors like retention. Do
Speaker:people stay when a manager is
Speaker:responsible for that team?
Speaker:That's an important one. You
Speaker:also have to counter that with,
Speaker:you don't want them to stay
Speaker:forever, because you want
Speaker:managers to be able to grow
Speaker:leaders and for those people to
Speaker:go on and do other things and be
Speaker:successful. There's also this
Speaker:element of people who have
Speaker:worked with the manager, how
Speaker:often do they end up becoming
Speaker:leaders and continuing to grow
Speaker:and being promoted in their
Speaker:career? The things that are very
Speaker:outcome-oriented and
Speaker:characteristic-oriented, but
Speaker:then there's also these aspects
Speaker:of the team. Those are some of
Speaker:the aspects that make a lot of
Speaker:sense, and then there's some
Speaker:other aspects. For example, one
Speaker:of the factors that is very
Speaker:important is trust.
Speaker:What's interesting is we were
Speaker:just talking about "Manager
Speaker:Tools" and we just had the
Speaker:founder of that podcast on the
Speaker:show. He was talking about a
Speaker:very large study that they ran.
Speaker:They basically got all managers
Speaker:to rate what they thought the
Speaker:trust level between them and
Speaker:their employees was, and then
Speaker:they got the employees to also
Speaker:rate the trust level that they
Speaker:had with their managers. On
Speaker:average, managers scored what
Speaker:they believed their trust
Speaker:between their employees to be as
Speaker:a 7.1 and the employees rated it
Speaker:as a 3.5. It was drastically
Speaker:different. Over the course of
Speaker:time, through systematic one-on-
Speaker:ones, and understanding, and
Speaker:level-setting, and asking for
Speaker:feedback, that flipped. It would
Speaker:be nice for the trust level to
Speaker:be at a 10, but what's more
Speaker:important is for the trust level
Speaker:that the employee rates the
Speaker:manager to be higher than what
Speaker:the manager does for their
Speaker:rating. Part of that is
Speaker:managers have to understand it's
Speaker:like driving, everybody thinks
Speaker:they're a better-than-average
Speaker:driver. It's coming to
Speaker:understanding that the trust
Speaker:level is maybe not what they
Speaker:think it is, and it's also
Speaker:consistent work to make those
Speaker:things happen. Again, what you
Speaker:said outlines very, very well
Speaker:some elements that you have to
Speaker:do. If we think about team
Speaker:structure and some of those
Speaker:aspects, some of these other
Speaker:aspects are great ways to
Speaker:understand if someone is a good
Speaker:manager or not.
Speaker:As the host of SuperManagers,
Speaker:what's the one piece of
Speaker:management advice you would give
Speaker:the listeners on the podcast?
Speaker:What I would say is, and the
Speaker:thing that I hear most often is,
Speaker:it's all about the people. At
Speaker:the end of the day, you have to
Speaker:treat everyone like real people,
Speaker:understand them, and treat them
Speaker:like human beings. Secondly,
Speaker:what I would say is that you
Speaker:have to treat this just like a
Speaker:professional athlete would.
Speaker:Just like a professional athlete
Speaker:would do drills, and practice,
Speaker:and look back on their week and
Speaker:figure out what conversations
Speaker:they had, and how they went, and
Speaker:how much feedback did they give,
Speaker:and how did the feedback yet
Speaker:received, the world's best
Speaker:managers are also practicing and
Speaker:they're very deliberate about
Speaker:all these things. Those are the
Speaker:two things I would say is it's
Speaker:all about the people and you
Speaker:have to work at this. One of the
Speaker:things that we say often is
Speaker:great managers are not born,
Speaker:they're made. The good news is
Speaker:that it's never too late. It's
Speaker:something that you can keep
Speaker:working on, and with enough
Speaker:effort, enough repetition, you
Speaker:too can be a supermanager.
Speaker:Amazing. Inspirational words.
Speaker:Aydin, so great to chat with you
Speaker:on Decoding Digital.
Speaker:Thanks for having me. This was
Speaker:super fun.
Speaker:Amazing. Take care.
Speaker:On the next episode of Decoding
Speaker:Digital...
Speaker:This is not like a small little
Speaker:tweak to your business. It is a
Speaker:fundamental transformation of
Speaker:your business model. It needs to
Speaker:be board and CEO-sponsored and
Speaker:you need to think holistically
Speaker:because it impacts every single
Speaker:process. It impacts how you
Speaker:develop products, how you market
Speaker:them, how you sell them, how you
Speaker:service them.
Speaker:Once you're on this journey,
Speaker:you're all in. You have to stay
Speaker:patient and you have to stay
Speaker:persistent on this journey. You
Speaker:can't turn around in six months
Speaker:and say, "These things are not
Speaker:happening fast enough." To turn
Speaker:around a ship, it takes time.
Speaker:David Sovie, senior managing
Speaker:director, and Vik Viniak, the
Speaker:managing director and senior
Speaker:partner at Accenture.
Speaker:Thanks for listening to Decoding
Speaker:Digital. Make sure you never
Speaker:miss an episode by subscribing
Speaker:to the show in your favorite
Speaker:podcast player. To learn more,
Speaker:visit decodingdigital.com. Until