In this episode, Bill is joined by Poppy, owner of K9 Groom School, to talk all about training and apprenticeships in the pet grooming industry.

Poppy shares her experience running a busy training school and explains why structured, high-quality training is so important for both new groomers and the businesses that employ them. She talks about the challenges that can come with apprenticeships – like setting clear expectations and making sure both the apprentice and the employer have a positive experience – as well as the huge rewards that come from getting it right.

Bill and Poppy also explore how City & Guilds qualifications are now part of the apprenticeship system, and how this is helping to raise standards across the industry.

This episode is a must-listen for any grooming business owner who wants to grow their team the right way – or anyone thinking about starting their career through an apprenticeship.

💬 Key Takeaways

• Apprenticeships work best with clear communication. Both sides need to know what to expect.
• Training isn’t one-size-fits-all. Good training adapts to the needs of each individual apprentice.
• Growing your own team can solve staffing issues. Apprenticeships are a great way to build skilled, loyal employees.
• Qualifications matter. City & Guilds Level 2 is now part of the apprenticeship route – helping raise industry standards.
• Investing in people pays off. A well-trained apprentice can become a long-term asset to your business.
• The future of grooming depends on training. A strong workforce starts with proper education and support.

As always, I'd like to thank the podcast sponsor, Lopay, the low-cost payment platform that helps you keep more of the money you earn!

You can find out more and sign up for Lopay here: https://merchant.lopay.app/ref/PETPASSION2500, where listeners of this podcast get £2500 of fee-free transactions!

And of course, if you feel like you could benefit from Bill's business programs for the Pet Grooming industry, visit our website: https://petpassiontoprofit.com/

Welcome to the Pet Grooming Business Podcast with me, Bill Betts, where we give practical business advice to help you grow your pet grooming business.

This podcast is sponsored by Low Pay, the Low rate payment app that gives you more.

So, without further ado, let's get going.

Welcome, everyone.

Welcome to this next podcast and today I am joined by Poppy.

Poppy is the owner of K9 Groom School.

Hi, Bill.

Yeah.

How you doing?

Good, how are you?

Not so bad.

You do something a bit different to a lot of the other providers.

You do the Level 2, don't you?

But you add a qualification in as well.

Yeah.

So, yeah, I mean, it's.

It's been a whirlwind apprenticeship.

Oh, yeah.

It's not an easy.

I used to.

I. I used to chat to Neat, Glynis and Nicola over at Norton, Education Training, and it just.

It sounded like so much work.

It is, but it's.

Do you know what, it's really enjoyable because we've had.

We've had the training school for, like, 13 years and we've obviously been developing that and doing that and that sort of runs itself now, which is really nice.

And obviously we have trained and qualified so many groomers, but it's been really nice to see things from the other side.

So, you know, be working with a lot of our past students and seeing sort of the input of apprentices and building their business from that side has just been.

It's actually been a really nice change as well.

I mean, it is.

It's a lot of work and it's especially a lot of work when you want to do well in it.

And we really, really do want our apprentices to do well and we want the employers to have a.

A nice experience because a lot of the feedback we were getting is that a lot of people have used the apprenticeship scheme and not had, you know, a nice experience with it, us included.

So when we first had apprentices, we had a nightmare with it.

You know, we didn't have great communication and the apprentices didn't enjoy training.

So I think that from our side was what we wanted to challenge.

We wanted to make it a nice experience for everyone because it's so such an amazing scheme from a business perspective.

Yeah, I think we're really lucky because, like, Scotland and Ireland, I don't think Wales, I think some.

There is a Wales or not, but they don't have access to this.

And I. I've got clients in all of those areas and I'm like, you haven't got an apprentice scheme, have you?

You Know, they really miss out by not having.

Yeah, everyone.

Yeah.

And grooming's made for it, isn't it?

Because, you know, the, the bathing, the drying, the prepping, the cleaning is such a massive part of the job and you know that those roles are made for apprentices.

And then the flip side of it as well is, you know, so many businesses are struggling to find staff that want to stay because most people just want to go and set up on their own.

You know, I'd say 90% of our students go and open their own businesses when they finished here.

It's a very, very small percentage that want to be employed.

So homegrowing your own staff, it's just, it's a bit of a no brainer, isn't it?

Well, that's, that's how we've.

So Emma's had A to Z for 22 years and we have hired in that year, in that time, we've hired two level three qualified groomers.

The first one, Emma was like, why are the heads not clean?

Then she said, well, we've never been taught how to do heads.

So she didn't.

Right.

She didn't last.

And then the second one we hired twice, which probably like, we should have learned the first time, but we were a bit.

Yeah.

And, and again, like the quality and it just wasn't.

Wasn't right.

So to be honest, we've never actually employed level three groomers.

We've all grown our, grown our staff and we've been at eight members of staff at times through apprenticeships and yeah, amazing.

Our sort of gateway was.

And this is Morgan who's taken the business on.

This is how she started with us.

She started as a 16 year old or maybe younger actually doing Saturday job finished as she got to gcses.

What would you like to do afterwards?

We can offer you an apprenticeship or we can take you on.

And she always told us she never wants to be a groomer, but eight years later, you know, she's grown through the business and we've done that so many times, like rinse and repeat.

And I think this is why selling our business is going to work, because she is literally like a mini or Mini Emma, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because she knows no different.

She hasn't.

You've molded her, you've molded her into what your business has needed and that's definitely what happens is, you know, sometimes you can have an amazing groomer come in and, you know, it might be that they've been trained amazingly but they're not doing things how you want them to be done in your salon or they come with bad habits or, you know, they just don't work in the same way that you work.

And, you know, this has been something for us to get our head around that.

Every single groomer works so differently.

You know, we have like 50 apprentices on at the minute and every single one that comes does things completely differently.

It's been an eye.

That has been an eye opener for me and.

But I'm not trying to get that out of them, but it does just show that every single business and every single grooming salon, you know, molding your own staff is just such an obvious thing to do because you're going to get someone who works exactly how you.

Work and that's what the customers want, you know, And I think that's always been the secret sauce for us, is we've always had a receptionist.

And some people might say, well, that's dead money, but I don't believe it is.

No, you.

You know, and we've always provided consistent, Consistent customer service and consistency around the haircuts.

Yeah, it doesn't matter.

I don't think it matters whether they're fancy or not.

They're pet grooms.

But as long as they're consistently good and the same and every nail is done and every ear is clean, that's what we want, isn't it?

Exactly.

Yeah, exactly that.

And then the other thing that we were really keen to do is to give the apprentices a bit of a progressional route.

So I think what was happening with a lot of apprentices and, you know, God, you know, you.

There's nobody doing anything wrong in the apprenticeship market.

Hats off to everyone who's doing what we're doing, because it's hard.

But what we were finding was, and especially with our apprentices, is they were doing the Level 2 apprenticeship program and then they were like, right, what's next?

And if they did want to go on to City and Guilds, which is the route our students do here, they would have to go back, do the City and Guilds qualification, which, you know, they would potentially have to pay for, to then be able to go on to do the City and Guilds Level three.

So, yeah, what we're offering now is the City and guilds level 2 included in the apprenticeship program.

Yeah.

So they get that included.

And then we've just been accepted to do Animal Management Level 3, which I know isn't dog grooming, but it's a way of people getting funding.

And then alongside that, we offer the Free City and Guilds Level three diploma.

They're essentially in, you know, two and a half years, they can come out with everything funded for them, which helps the business as well.

And is that then doing it in your location or with an employer?

Yeah.

So they have the apprenticeship for the Level three.

So say if your level two apprentice had finished, they'd stay on with you and do the animal management Level three.

And then they'd come up to us for some days to do training for the City and Guilds Level three.

But they'd still be an apprentice under you.

But we'd qualify them here on the days that they come up here.

So it's just a way of using the funding from the government to be able to get them qualified to a level three standard.

Because unfortunately they have said there's not ever going to be a level three dog grooming apprenticeship, which is a shame.

And they, they sort of feel like the animal care is the progressional route, which is a completely different patient, isn't it?

But.

But one.

What we, what we used to do is we'd put people through their level two animal management.

But I think Keats used to offer like a dog grooming sort of version to it.

Or they.

Yeah, there, we used to do that.

But I was quite surprised and Emma was quite surprised when we started doing the level two dog grooming, actually how advanced it was Judy Harris and she was like.

I think she said the people that sort of designed it weren't, Weren't all in the dog grooming world sort of thing.

But it really takes them quite close to sort of a level three qualification.

Yeah, for sure.

I mean, definitely.

I noticed the difference between.

So we do nothing against the City and Guilds Level two.

It's a fantastic qualification and our students do really well with it.

But because the students doing the apprenticeship, they're a year on program, so they are like 30 hours a week, you know, for 12 months and by the end of it, so they.

For their assessment, they only have to do a clip off on a dog, so they have to do a bath and a dry and a clip off.

It's a very, very basic assessment, but most of the students can go way above and beyond that.

So most of them are doing styles, most of them are doing hand stripping, most of them are executed really, really nice, like breed standard trims as well.

And I think what's very evident is they, the students tend to get out what the employers have put in.

So if the employers choose, which is absolutely fine, if the employers choose to Only train them in clip offs then that's fine, you know, they can pass the assessment on that.

But then the ones who really push the students and also the ones that utilise so they get some days training up at our school as well.

The ones that utilise those days training, they come out at level three standards.

You know there's absolutely, you know, they'd whiz through their Level 3 exams in no time.

So you are getting really, really well rounded.

Groomers that are just, they're industry ready.

Yeah.

And they have seen everything.

It's what you've not seen in a year, you're not going to probably see, are you?

And that's the difference, I think.

So like with students that have done very quick fast track training, you know, they might have never seen fleas, they might have never seen a massive dog.

Whereas these, these apprentices that have been in salon for a year, they, they've seen pretty much most eventualities I would say.

There's nothing like salon experience, is there?

Yeah, I find that with some of the people that are coming out saying that the college, we, we had a member of staff actually we took her on as, not as apprentice but as a trainee and she was so hell bent on going to college and getting a qualification and me, me and Emma were like, we're not paying for you to go to college because you're going to get everything you need here.

But she went and paid for herself because she's bloody minded like that.

Yeah.

And within a week or two of, she went one day a week and she came back the second week I think and went well, I know far more than a lot of them are being taught and I could probably have taught that course.

Yeah, told you so.

And then she went on about how much debt she had, how much student debt.

Well, that was on you, you know.

Yeah.

It's patience, isn't it?

Because with the apprenticeship they have to hold out.

So they have to hold out to get that experience.

You know, they're on program for a year.

They're potentially on an, I say potentially on an apprenticeship wage.

So most of them are on an apprenticeship wage.

Some employers choose to pay them more.

So I think for some people it's that, that puts them off but definitely in terms of what they get out of it after that year, I think, God, it pays dividends for them for sure.

We had one apprentice, we've had a.

We've.

Most of our apprentices state have stayed with us for many years but we've had recently like A couple.

One resigned on the day that she qualified and went to set up her own business.

But actually she's asked to come back to work temporarily with Morgan.

She's a bit lonely and a bit quiet with her business, but that doesn't like it yet.

Well, she's gone off and I think maybe I said to Emma, maybe we look, we make business, like, look easy in some respects, you know.

Yeah.

And she's gone out there and set up a Facebook page and then gone, where is everyone?

So, yeah, she's asked back and help out Morgan when she takes over the business.

But most of them, we've had them for, like, five to eight years.

I mean, that return on investment is really good.

Yeah.

I think that's what's been challenging as well, is.

Is changing the mindset of groomers as well.

Because it could be that they've had that situation happen and someone, you know, we've had an apprentice and they left after 12 months and I'm never having one again.

And I'm like, well, that's just having staff because, you know, God, forget apprentices.

You have some staff that come and go, you have some that are with you for 10 years, you know, that.

That, unfortunately, is just business, it's just how it goes, you know, that's not the apprenticeship scheme.

I try and reframe that for them and say, well, actually, like, look at the positives.

You've.

You've helped.

And they're generally young people, aren't they?

You've helped a young person gain a skill.

You know, I've got clients in New Zealand who.

She used her grieving qualification to immigrate her family to New Zealand.

You know, you've given that young person the skill that they can take anywhere in the world and earn a living, you know.

Yeah.

And not just the grooming skill, but how to mop a floor, how to make a cup of tea, how to, you know, how to do washing and stuff like that.

Yeah.

Life skills as well, isn't it?

That's it.

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If.

I mean, the end goal, obviously, is that these apprentices, they go on to be valued members of staff eventually.

But if that doesn't happen, then they've worked hard for you for 12 months, they've baffed and dried your dogs for 12 months and, you know.

Yeah, exactly.

So get get another apprentice.

Perfect.

It works both ways, doesn't it?

Because if that apprentice isn't suitable, it also gives you as an employer the sort of like, you know, well, the get out as well.

Yes, it works.

You can't have your cake and eat it, can you?

It cuts both ways and there's definitely, you know, it gives you that opportunity to see if someone's going to fit because someone can be an amazing employee, but if they don't fit your business, and let's face it, in a grooming salon as well, like it's, you know, it's one to one, you get.

Most grooming businesses are really small, so you've kind of got to get on with the person that you're working with.

Yeah, exactly.

They do become like that, don't they, by the end?

So, no, there's some, definitely some really good partnerships and I think it's just for the people that are really worried about taking on apprentices, it's just understanding that, you know, we do offer something quite different.

I would say to anyone else, you know, we, we are so personalized.

I am on WhatsApp 24 hours a day.

I swear, if I don't get at least 50 apprentices messaging me throughout the day, then there's something gone wrong.

Are you going to grow a team to help you with that?

Because that is, that is.

So we've got, there's already.

There's me and three other girls that work on the dog groom in one.

So there's, you know, the.

I've definitely got a lot of help and the girls are amazing.

And then we've got one of our tutors that fully runs the animal care side.

So she's actually, we've employed her from a college and she did animal care at one of the colleges near us and she's fully taken on the animal care side now and because that's not my bag.

So she's, she's growing that side of it for us.

So yeah, we've got a team, but also we do want to keep it quite small and personalized.

You know, we, It's a beast.

We could take this to massive heights.

But at the same time, you know, I don't want it to ever be where the students where.

We don't know every single apprentice we've got on program and I don't know every single employee employer because most of the employers now kind of know the ins and outs of their business.

I know the issues they have with their apprentices.

You know, I know their plans for their business and their apprentices in the future.

And I don't want it to get to a stage where it's not as personal as that.

I think.

Yeah, I think that's spot on, isn't it?

Because I think when you look at the grooming industry, like groomers are very, very quick to drop you or like bad mouth you.

And if we're honest, you know, they will very quickly if something goes wrong for them, they will very quickly sort of shout it out.

And, and groomers are very easily influenced as well, aren't they?

They, they like a recommendation, they like, they like a bit of gossip.

So, you know, looking after that is really important, isn't it?

And growing, it's hard to stop at times.

It is hard to stop.

But what's quite good about the apprenticeship side is at the minute, this level two, it's 12 months, isn't it?

So we've constantly got people dropping off, dropping on.

So you know, when someone's finished, we've got room to take someone else on.

So, you know, because it's a 12 month program, we've kind of only really just gone through the 12 month cycle.

Not so long ago we, we started not last January, the January before.

So we're like, you know, a good 20 months in.

So we're starting to see all our results coming through now.

Everyone's getting really nice results, starting to see people progress onto the next steps of their apprenticeship, which is really nice and we're starting to be able to see the sort of capacity we can take and handle as well, which is quite nice because there's a lot of work at the beginning of the apprenticeship, getting people signed on.

Then there's a lot of work at the end, getting them ready for their assessments, making sure they're comfortable, making sure they understand what they've got to do.

So yeah, it's a big process for everybody and it's a lot of work for the apprentice as well.

They've got to be really committed to the program to get.

Like you said, it's not an easy qualification.

They're not going to breeze through it.

There's a lot of work for them to do.

Yeah, yeah.

It'd be nice to get you on the podcast to I suppose actually explain all this and then also explain to the, to the business owners like how, how it works.

Because I think a lot, a lot of the whinges and the moans that I hear is, is through them not knowing or understanding that.

Yeah, it does take a long time to sort all this out because You've.

Behind the scenes, you've, you know, you've got loads of work to do, you know.

Yeah.

And you've got.

And also not only that, you've got rules and regulations that you need to follow.

And then when they're like, having to do, I don't know, like one of the ones.

A year or so ago, I was like, why is my apprentice doing Black History Month as part of their, you know.

Do you know what, though?

Some of those stuff you have to do.

Yeah.

So we're.

Because, because we're, we're regulated through.

We get offsteaded as well and they come to us and we had our first.

You have like an initial offstead said within the first year and we got really, really good feedback.

But some of the feedback they came back with, they were like, we've spoken to your apprentices and you've not taught them about healthy relationships.

And I'm like, no, I haven't.

And they were like, well, you have to.

I was like, what do I have to?

And they're like, you have to.

It's just part of government funding.

You have to teach them about British values, you have to teach them about healthy relationships.

So, you know, yes, we do have to do things that we don't want to do.

But that isn't on the employers, it's on the apprentices.

Yeah, but the feedback I was getting from him by my clients, I had a.

Like, why are they doing this and why are they doing that?

And it's like.

And this is what I want to get out there is like the behind the scenes, like explaining how it works and why you do what you do and, you know, get our understanding out there, you know, you shove us.

What's a narcissist?

Well, yeah, exactly.

Are you being gaslighted?

Yeah, yeah.

Trolls on Facebook.

That would be a good one, wouldn't it?

Yeah.

I always had to look it up because I always, like.

I'm not even like, sure the definitions, but I'm like, am I being gaslighted?

Did you just do that?

I think for the employers as well, what they do need to understand that sign on process.

One of the biggest problems we have with people wanting to take on apprentices is payroll.

So they have to have a payroll scheme before doing it and getting a payroll scheme.

So the government.

I don't know.

Well, I do know.

10 days, I reckon.

10 days.

10 weeks.

It's about 10 weeks.

So the.

These employers, they get these apprentices, they're ready for them to start and I'm like, you've got to apply for payroll.

And in the back of my head I'm thinking, it's going to be weeks, mate, it's going to be a week.

So once they're taken on their auntie's best friend's daughter, cousin, they're like, well, they're starting next week.

And you're like, hold on.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's it.

Sometimes they call me and they're like, I've had someone start.

And I'm like, you haven't they not started?

So I think, yeah, that would be.

Quite good to address, wouldn't it?

That would be quite good to address all that.

Like the process of taking on an apprentice and.

And stuff like that.

Yeah, process of it.

And also as well, with payroll, what we're trying to encourage people do.

To do is so we.

We have some inquiries from salons that, you know, rightly so.

I love it when people take time, they come and they inquire and then maybe like six months later, they've thought about it, they've considered all the options and then they take someone on.

And really what we're trying to encourage people to do is to apply for their payroll scheme when they're thinking about it, because they can have that just sat there.

They don't have to activate it, but once they've got the codes, if they then choose to activate it, that's absolutely fine.

And obviously as well, the application process, it's not a big deal to do it, but it is a big deal if you're waiting and you've got someone wanting to start.

Yeah.

So I think that's something we've been trying to get people to do and then.

Yeah, just understanding, you know, basic things.

Contracts.

A lot of groomers have never even had to do a contract before, but making sure they've got them in place, obviously insurance, making sure that box is ticked.

Risk assessments, we do try and get them to have, if possible, but all of this stuff, you say it to a groomer and they're like, freaking out.

But we do support with that as well.

We have some draft contracts, draft risk assessment.

So we.

Where we can.

Because.

Because we're groomers and we know how busy they are as well.

We do try and support as much as possible.

Yeah, yeah, that'd be good.

We can get all that across in the.

In the podcast.

Yeah.

So how do they work?

Do you do that?

Do you do that remotely?

Yeah, we do it on zoom.

Like this.

Yeah, very much like what we've been doing.

I don't generally try not to put any questions.

We just sort of see where it goes and.

Yeah, talk about, like.

Talk about.

It'd be nice to actually learn a bit more about you and how you got into the industry and where you came from and experience and then, you know, what made you go down the podcast.

The podcast.

The apprenticeship route and.

Yeah, all of that.

And then we can talk about, you know, the benefits of it, the pitfalls of it, how to apply the structure, what you need, all that sort of base.

Yeah, no, that sounds good.

That sounds good.

So there's been.

Is it.

Is it your private group, then, that there's been people chatting about apprenticeships on?

Because I had John the other day.

I've got John and Gemma, who I think are on your group.

John was like, oh.

And I was like, what group is this?

Because I keep getting people like, oh, I've heard about you on Bill's group.

And I'm like, what group is this?

Yeah, so I run a.

Like a business program, so.

So we support them throughout their business.

And we've got.

Yeah, we got private groups that we're chatting in and we've got a few, like, Gemma's obviously employed Ellie and she wanted provider.

So everyone was saying, like, they're using you.

John was saying they used you and stuff.

Yeah, that's good.

And is it busy for you with student groomers doing the business course?

Are you getting a lot of uptake on that?

Yeah, I. I'm purposely, like, never went in cheap, so I didn't with loads of people.

So I sign up around three to five people a month and that's.

That's all I need.

So I've got me and four, five other associate coaches that help with pricing and mindset and stuff like that.

So we do, like, zoom calls.

We've got a portal video lessons and a support group.

Like, we work on Discord quite a lot.

And it literally pings like your WhatsApp group.

It pings all.

All day long with people they just support, but they're supporting each other as well as getting as well, which is.

What'S nice, because I know you'd spoke to Steve, because we were really interested on.

Because we do like a business program here for the student.

Not a program, but more of a workshop for them when they're on the course.

But because Steve's.

He's helping, he does a lot, the apprenticeship sort of sales and that side of it.

So he's mental busy.

So I know we were keen to sort of team up, but I Think we were both a bit not shocked, saying it's bad, but we were more shocked at the price than we thought because we work with a lot of different people and we try to offset bits of the work where we can.

So, like our first aid, we used Sophie Bell, we used Julie Harris for the theory courses, we use Groomer's Gallery for a lot of stuff.

So I think he was hoping, right, he's the one.

Come on, Bill Betts, let's go.

And then he came back to me and he was like, I don't think we're going to be able to give Bill Betts away.

No.

When he said, oh, you, Sophie Bell, I was like, yeah, my quote is going to be well, like, well out of it.

Yeah.

It's a shame because he said to me, was like, does he do a book where we can take the book?

And I was like, I don't think we do.

It's in the process.

I'm three or five chapters in writing it.

I'm going to send out posters to all the grooming schools just with like basic contact details.

Yeah.

I mean, is there could be.

I'm doing some.

I'm doing.

I keep saying I'm doing.

I want to do like a.

A free video course on like Build a business with me.

So I'll set up.

I'll film myself setting up a Facebook page.

I'll film myself.

I've got a Google course.

I can send you that link actually now where they.

How to set up Google my business.

I'll film myself setting up Instagram.

You know, it's like build.

Build a business with me so people can get it.

Quite right.

Right.

To start with.

But I mean, do you.

Do you work on a portal or do you have like video lessons or anything like that?

Yeah, so we.

We use one file which is like an eportfolio system and then we also use Nearpod.

I don't know if you've heard of that.

So we use Nearpod as like an online classroom.

So when we do our classes for learners, it's like an interactive classroom.

So we're doing the class, but they're interacting and they can have videos and answer questions and do quizzes and bits and pieces like that.

It's really good.

But most of the apprentices stuff is on Nearpod, sorry, one file.

Then our private students, we use a lot of Vimeo for them.

So we have vimy videos of us discussing bits and pieces.

So if you ever do any videos like that, we could put your videos on our Vimeo account that the students could have access to as well.

But I think there's definitely scope to promote your services more because again, because we've branched out as a company where Steve used to have such a massive input into the business side.

So, you know, students would finish and a bit like you, they'd be constantly on the phone.

You know, we'd offer that after service, which we do still offer, but we can't promote it as much as we used to because we're just, you know, you can't do everything, can you?

Right.

So, you know, where, where we want to be able to signpost people.

It would be nice to have, you know, that contact to be able to pass them on to.

What, what, what do you find are the biggest sort of problems that the new.

The grooms that are going out to set up their own.

Their own business.

You.

Because I think I asked him, you know, what do you have to deliver within your curriculum so that the videos could hit the.

Hit that.

Yeah, it probably should be a little bit extra in there.

Yeah.

So they don't have to do anything in terms of business for the courses.

So they don't have to.

So it's free reign.

Exactly.

But we've always, right from the start, before we even had any accreditations, we've always built it in because obviously it's such a big ask for groomers to do this course and then go and set up a business when they've been employed all their life.

I would say from my side, the biggest thing is just.

It's confidence, isn't it?

It's that thing of 100%.

It's, you know, I.

They get to the end of their course and they're like, oh, God, you know what, I might go and rent a table somewhere.

And I'm like, no, don't go and rent a table somewhere.

You're absolutely fine.

If you do that 12 months time, you're going to be in the same position still wondering if you should do it on your own.

So it's definitely the chimp, which we would call it on their shoulder telling them not to do it.

Or the family member.

Or the family member, for sure.

Yeah.

Normally we've got over that barrier.

If they're on the course, it's normally the family member that would stop them doing the course, to be fair.

So I'd say it's definitely that.

But then also they just.

Making mistakes, isn't it?

But again, that's down to confidence, charging your worth.

They undervalue themselves because they don't Feel, you know, that they can charge as much as they should.

So then you get them coming back 12 months down the line, burnt out, not making money, not enjoying the job.

And that all stems from that pricing, doesn't it?

And the thing is they go out there and they watch all the famous, you know, famous groomers out there that are all doing on surface, doing really well.

And I often bump, like I often meet salon owners, that they're big salon owners.

And when you sort of say, okay, let's bear about how much do you pay yourself?

And they're like, what do you mean pay myself?

You know, I pay my staff, I pay my bills, but nothing left.

But you're like, but your social media is like so awesome, you know, and that really gives a false impressions.

New people going out there.

Whereas you got.

Yeah, some of my clients, I suppose that just squirrel away and beaver away.

But they're charging like I'd sign the other day that I was talking to and I said one of my clients names and she was like, oh, now I know why she charges so much money.

You know, because she's confident and she's out there and you're asking sort of thing.

Yeah.

So yeah, a lot of the time isn't it with, I mean, God, you don't need to tell you this, but a lot of that time it's just portraying that to your clients that, look, I'm totally worth it.

I'm not even going to question if you're going to rebook.

You're going to rebook, that's what we're going to do.

But it does stem from confidence.

And I think as well, we get a lot of people who have been in work for a long time, been employed, and then suddenly they're going self employed and you know, they just don't know how to behave as an employed person because they've constantly had someone there telling them what to do and suddenly they're on their own.

And it's just, it's a massive culture shock as well, isn't it?

Oh yeah, that's one thing that I, I do seminars and I'll ask them like, right, how much do you want to get paid?

And everyone's like, don't know, I never thought about that.

I said, okay, you're now on indeed looking for a job.

What sort of salary are you looking for?

Oh, I've looked for 35,000 or 40,000.

I'm like, when you're applying this to your business, never thought of that.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

I think because it's a skill as well.

They see it as more of a hobby job, but it's not, you know, it's bloody hard work.

So, you know, it's most certainly not a hobby I would choose.

It's always been something that's there to make money, isn't it?

I mean, God, people laughed at us 14, 15 years ago when we said we were groomers.

It wasn't even a job.

It wasn't even a thing, was it?

Well, you say that, but there are grooms out there that I get pushback from and I rolled and stuff like that.

That says, well, it's disgusting that you're.

That people are charging like lots of money for.

For haircuts, you know.

But what, what I teach actually is like, the more you charge, the less you need to do.

And then the people that benefit from that is the animals, you know.

Yeah.

Dogs that you're.

Because we, when we set up A to Z, we.

We knew new, different and did that volume model, you know, dog after dog after dog and push them through and get lots of stuff.

Yeah, yeah.

But, you know, the.

The one that suffers the most, apart from the groomer's body and mind, is actually the dog that doesn't have experience from that.

Yeah.

So wouldn't you want to pay more for your dog to have a nice experience?

For sure.

You know, I get groomers saying it was disgusting that, that you're.

You're charging 70.

Like people were charging £75 for a cockapoo.

I think it's.

It's outrageous.

You know, you should be doing it because you love animals.

Well, think about it, Think about it.

You know, does this, you know, if you love the animal that you don't want to do it in an hour through your salon.

No.

But do you love your kids?

You know, do you want to them just like.

Yeah, yeah.

It's.

It's a very, very peculiar industry for that.

And I don't know what it is with it.

People, they say this, they're going out there and doing like this groups.

My.

A little bit.

They will go out there and they'll pack us like a hall of people doing seminars and stuff.

Yeah.

And I'll be like, right, 10, 20 people, I'm like, yeah, poodle won't make you money.

No, no.

Yeah.

It's very contrary.

It's.

You kind of fight it.

You fight in a losing battle.

You never.

You're never going to please everyone, are you?

And I think as well, it's choosing that.

And it's been the same with us with the apprenticeships.

You know, we've had some kickback from some employers as they're inquiring and signing on and we're like, look, you know, if it's not for you, it's not for you.

We're not here to make everyone do this.

100% winner.

We're here to support the ones that want to and want to grow their business.

If that's not you, that's not you.

You know, funny thing is, is like the employer doesn't actually pay you any money.

No, no, I didn't see that.

Do they?

No.

But some of them, some of them think that the government pay the wage.

We've had that a lot.

Yeah.

So we'll clarify that on the podcast as well.

We'll clarify that for sure.

And then as well, they don't understand why we're getting paid.

Which I'm like, God, if you saw the amount of work we do, you know, and it.

And it's not an awful lot of money we get for a year's work.

And it's normally over a year's work because they never finish in a year.

So, yeah, for sure we, we should be paid, but a lot of them don't understand why we should be paid.

That's a shame as well, that the government doesn't pay more because that then forces you to perhaps take on more apprentices than perhaps you need to or want to just to get the funding through.

Yeah, I mean, that changes constantly and there is, there's some extras, so, I mean, you'll know this anyway, but obviously the young people and the employers get an extra thousand pound grant if they're taking on a young person, and we get a bit of a, an extra kickback for that as well.

So.

Because the young people, they are harder to work with.

You know, getting a young person who's working and partying and doing everything else to get their work done is much, much harder than someone who's really committed to wanting to be a dog groomer.

So, yeah, they do do some incentives for employers and for us.

So, you know, do you have a.

Do you have the ear of the government at all?

Do you have anyone like, do you work with your MP or.

Because the government are putting out all this blah about getting young people to work and stuff, they're missing a real.

This is where the apprenticeship schemes come in.

This is where they should be pushing, you know, incentivizing employers to take on apprentices.

Yeah, I mean, they are.

The apprenticeships are definitely.

It's A buzzword at the minute.

It's definitely being pushed more, for sure.

And it's got.

It's got to stem from schools as well, because I think that's the other thing.

You know, schools don't promote it at the minute it started.

They're starting to.

I've got a girl who's in high school as well, and they're definitely.

I'm starting to see things coming through more.

But the problem is there's not enough placements for the amount of people that are wanting to do placements.

So we work a lot on, indeed, to recruit apprentices, but also to recruit employers.

If we put an advert on for a dog grooming apprenticeship, it's like the floodgates have opened.

We literally get hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of applications and we have to turn it off and we don't have enough placements for all of these people that are wanting to do apprenticeships.

So then what happens is they end up just going to college because they've no other option.

Well, maybe we can perhaps put a dent in that with the podcast and see if we can get.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

And I think sometimes what employers think as well is that they, you know, they're just going to get given an apprentice.

You know, we work really hard to match them.

So, you know, if.

If there's a salon that has a very specific requirement, I'm laughing because I did have a salon that had a really.

They wanted.

They only wanted a black person.

And I'm like, we definitely couldn't say we only was.

You can't do that.

You mention that.

Job over.

Yeah, I couldn't do that.

But, yeah, we can work to certain requirements.

I did laugh when it got to.

Be within the law, though.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

And if they, you know, we have some people who are like, you know, I'd prefer an older person.

It might be that they only want a female, you know, it might be that they want someone who isn't super outgoing.

So we can tailor the candidates to them and we massively push on trials, you know, not just one day, do a couple of days trial, make sure you're actually going to get on with each other.

Otherwise that's going to be a long year.

Very long year.

As John's fanning out, I know he's nearly done.

I've got Layla in with me today, actually.

She's downstairs with the girls.

Is she all right?

She's fine.

Is Lola.

She just.

She's not passionate about dog grooming and I think Sometimes that's the problem.

She's doing her job because that's very hard as well to get rid of someone.

They're doing their job, they're coming in, they're trying.

But she had to be a dog groomer.

You have to be passionate about it and sometimes some of the apprentices just aren't, you know, I think on the.

Flip side though, what I try and instill in my clients, the dog grooming, the, the employees is actually a lot of this is our fault, you know, as employees.

A lot of this is down to us because we don't understand as first time employers what we want.

We don't understand our own values, we don't understand, you know, I think that misconception, isn't it, of you'll get an apprentice and they'll just slot in.

Well, actually it's our job to train them to slot in, you know, so, so I, whenever we, we talk about employment quite a lot on my coaching calls and stuff and I do sort of bring that into or actually and the same with customers, you know, and there's a podcast in this as well.

I don't know how to phrase it without upsetting people.

Maybe people need to be upset, but a lot of the time it's our fault as the business owner, 100%.

I see it, I see it all, all the time with employers, with the apprentices.

I'll get a call and I'll be like, they'll say to me, oh, you know, so and so, I've called you to clean so many times.

She's not doing it properly, she's not doing this.

And I'll say, have you told her?

No, no, that's it.

Well, well, why didn't you tell her the first time?

So when she didn't clean those blades properly for the first time, why didn't you tell her?

Well, I didn't know how to do it.

Well, then it's your fault that she's carried on doing it.

You know, a ground rules.

We talk a lot about ground rules and I do this on inductions with employers.

Please take, you know, set the ground rules.

They are not your friends.

They might become your friend, but they're not your friend when they start.

So you need to set those ground rules.

This is what you expect.

I don't expect you to be on the phone.

The phone is a big problem with apprentices.

You know, tell them, tell them at the start.

You know, the phone goes in a basket, you can have it on your lunch, that's absolutely fine.

But Set those rules out beforehand because otherwise I see it happening.

You know, they just set themselves up for failing.

And then I say to them, do you do reviews?

Have you done a progress review?

Have you spoke to them about how they're getting on?

No.

Well, how do they know that they're doing all right?

How do they know that they've done something to upset you?

So, yeah, and I had.

I had half an hour the other night with Gemma sort of saying, right, she starts next week, your apprentice.

You know, have you thought about where her handbag goes?

Have you thought about where her mobile phone goes?

Have you thought about.

And she's like, right.

You know, I'm like, this is the stuff.

Like, I was speaking to another client who's got employees and she said, oh, my employee winds me up because she leaves her handbag here and I keep putting it in the.

I'm like, stop putting it away for her.

Get her to do it.

You know, you're just empowering, you know, allowing her to.

Yeah.

Her behavior.

So, yeah, yeah.

It's experience, though, isn't it?

It's.

God, I.

When we first took on staff, I look back and we were terrible about it and.

And it is.

It is experience.

And you do learn that, you know, you have to be very open and honest and transparent from the start and also allow the apprentices to be.

And your staff to be as well.

You know, let them come to you with issues and try and work it out.

Well, there's something like, I introduced, like, the word culture.

Like, what's your culture?

And they're like, oh, what's that mean?

It's like your culture.

You know, how do you.

And I always.

I always say our culture at A to Z is like, if Emma's not in the building, the culture would be.

What would Emma do?

You know, Emma sets the bar sort of thing.

Emma sets the standards.

And we.

I actually got a.

A leadership coaching to do a call with my lot and she has some great things about how to speak to employees as, like, as your friend, I can understand why you've done what you've done and why you need to go home early.

But as your manager and everything changed, I thought, wow, as your manager, you know, the best really needs you.

I'm like, that's so powerful.

Just.

Yeah.

Highlighting who you are at that particular point when you're talking to that person.

Yeah.

And I think, what.

So what's so hard in grooming is.

And we see.

Again, we see this a lot is it's those little niggles.

That become huge things, isn't it?

And we always say, I try and say as much as possible to our employers is, don't let them niggles start.

So if something's bothering you, you need to knock it on the head straight away.

Because I've been in work and I'm terrible for it.

You know, someone from.

That someone comes in, dubs their coat there and you're like, oh, right, you can just do it.

Yeah, just tell them.

Just tell them from the start.

And actually, you know, especially young people, they.

They do respond really well to it.

I'm always amazed how well the apprentices respond to, you know, constructive feedback.

Because they're young and they're used to it.

They're not like us as adults, are they?

You know, as adults, we're not used to being told what to do.

But a lot of these young learners are.

They've.

They've just come from school, so to them, actually, they do need that guidance, don't they?

Yeah, yeah.

Excellent.

And have you got your diary there?

We'll see if we can get you.

Yes, let's have a look.

Knowing how much we talk about it, might need about an hour.

Yeah, yeah.

Two hours.

No, no.

Well, I'll have to stop waffling waffle.

It's all.

It's like massive value in.

In all of that.

What days work for you?

Well, I've got some gaps next week, actually.

I've got Tuesday and free all day at the moment, and then Monday, Tuesday.

Next week we're having a matrix accreditation.

If you ask me what that is, I have no idea.

But we need it.

If you're in.

If you're in Cheshire, it'd be like gang.

Gang crime, the matrix unit.

But I have no idea what it is.

Something to do with information and guidance, apparently.

We're going to be fine with it.

I've given one of my other girls at work the task of dealing with it, but we've got that all day Monday and Tuesday.

So Wednesday.

Wednesday is good.

Yeah, I can do.

Half well.

Yeah.

Half 11.

I've just got someone in through 12 o' clock would be better.

Okay.

If 12.

Actually, I got a question as well.

I'll send over a zoom link for that.

Yeah, great.

If Morgan's got an application in, actually, from a lady that's done her level one and level two animal care, stroke equine care.

I don't think that precludes her from doing a level two dog grooming.

If it wasn't be able to offer animal care would be.

But she could do animal management level three, because she's.

So if they've done a qualification below the level in the same industry, they can do one up.

So if she's done level one and level two animal care, she could do level three animal management, which we offer, or she could go straight into dog grooming as well.

So she can do a level two, even though she's got a level two animal management or animal care.

It's fine.

It's fine.

Yeah.

Same level.

If it's the same level, that's absolutely fine.

Different industry, different side.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, to be honest, we are quite flexible with the whole animal care thing because there's no set.

So the.

The rule is that you can't do an apprenticeship, a level above qualification.

You already have in your same industry, which in theory means that if they've done animal management level three, they can't do dog grooming.

But I've really, really challenged this because we have so many applications of people that have done animal care.

And the response I got back from the government was, well, if they do a skill scan and you can prove that it's new learning, then it's fine.

Now it is new learning because they've never groomed a dog.

I always say, like, skill scan, less is more.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

They still do.

You tell them not to and they still do.

But, yeah, we do still take on some level three animal cares on level two dog grooming, because even, you know.

Yes, they've covered the legislation side of it, but even then they don't understand how that relates to a grooming salon.

So, you know, they definitely don't have the knowledge and skills to be a groomer.

Yeah.

And I think we can definitely prove that.

All right.

Yeah.

Okay.

And you motivate me to get on with my book so I can send you a load of copies once that's done.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But we take Julie Harris's book, we, all of our students get a copy of that and we literally buy them in boxes of 50.

So get your book done.

Yeah.

And.

And then we can incorporate that as well.

Yeah.

And then perhaps we can.

I need to look at this sort of module, business module, for you.

And then perhaps it's just every student, it's like a little fee per student or something.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, I don't want to devalue what you do because I completely get why you set it high because they get such a personal service.

But when Steve does his.

He.

So he.

His is normally a full day but he talks as much as I do and he tends to just go over the basics of setting up the business.

So you know what, which, how to set it up?

Are they a sole trade, a limited company partnership, which route to go down with that?

Setting up social medias.

Which avenues to go down with setting up social media if they want to.

Which is a bit of a battle in itself.

Website choosing the correct name because some of them at this point haven't even chosen the correct name.

And then the setting prices and then rebooks the process of rebooking and gaining clients.

And you know, sometimes when they're starting out the marketing side of like how are they going to market?

Which maybe we have completely different views, but we're very old school on just like, you know, flyers speaking to people at one stage.

My, my ethos or my.

Is like everywhere for everyone in a way.

So yeah, my father in law was part of the business and when Facebook came along he was like, why do we need to be on Facebook?

I'm not, I'm like, yeah, you need to be on Facebook.

Yeah.

You know, but then that doesn't, that doesn't preclude you to go and put flies in the local coffee shop as well.

So that's it, that's it.

That's it.

One thing is.

So yeah, I mean that is just like the basics, isn't it?

And then I suppose what would be really nice and I suppose what would naturally happen from your perspective is if they like that little mini course.

So say if we, if you did a live mini course every quarter.

So what we, we tend to only do it every quarter here.

And then the students jump onto it as and when they can because all of our students roll on, roll off.

So we don't have like set start dates.

And then I suppose what would happen is just leave a carrot dangling for them to enroll onto the bigger course.

Yeah, yeah.

And yeah, I was wondering whether we just make some videos and then they just watch them at their own leisure or.

Yeah, I mean that works actually better.

That's a better way to do it, isn't it?

And then they can jump back on and off them ASM when they need to get the advice, can't they?

Because some of them, they, they finish here and then they leave it months before actually even setting up, which is not what I would advise, but they do.

So at least if they've got that video, then yeah.

And there's the option for them to do that.

Okay, I'll have a look at that.

So Emma's Yeah.

Lots to think about.

Yeah.

Emma's extracting herself from A to Z and she's going to come and work with me.

Not for me but with me.

Yeah.

So that hopefully I'm hoping it will free up some time but I'm, I'm.

I think it might.

We're just going to absorb her and add to all the, the chaos that's here.

But yeah.

And are you looking for any like EPAs or anything down this way?

So we work with currently vet skills.

Yeah.

And we are just looking at doing some work with IPET as well.

We are already with them but we've just been trying to stick with one so that we can get the consistency of knowing what we're doing.

But I know I pet and so we can't obviously take endpoint assessors on but Vet Skills and IPET are always looking for endpoint assessors.

They absolutely.

Vet skills particularly don't have enough endpoint assessors to do what we've got coming through.

So I would definitely look at that.

Yeah.

It's always a backup plan.

Yeah.

Yeah.

They're a nice company.

Vet skills.

They just.

And they do things very to the book which is quite nice.

You know they're really, really proficient at making sure everything's.

And they've got a lot of really good high end groomers doing the endpoint assessment at the minute.

So they use.

Joanne Angus is used a lot around here who see other ones.

There's three or three or four that they've used but they're all good groomers and I think they must be quite nice to work for as well.

Yeah.

And another thing I was going to say you have to do so much off the job learning, don't you?

So I just, I was going to want to introduce you to.

Have you heard of Next Mun?

So there were.

They're a pharmaceutical company that manufacture non prescription products for vets.

But.

Right, okay.

Emma, Emma introduced me to Next Mun and I've introduced them to the sort of grooming.

Yeah.

Street.

So they, they do like medicated shampoos like wipes for like itchy feet.

They do start a product called Stom and Dime which is like healing for the gums and stuff like that.

But I was just thinking they have territory managers all around the UK but if you wanted to help with your 20 off the job learning they often do lunch and learns because within the veterinary industry they do lunch and learns.

That's like the, the veterinary thing.

I'm trying to get into the grooming industry 50.

Just professionalize it.

If you, if I find out your local.

How do you spell it?

N E, X, M U N E. Next.

Mu and nex.

Where's that card?

Hold on.

Nex.

N E X T M E, M U, N E. They're an international company but the, the UK arm is quite small, so they're a small sort of business.

And the, the beauty of them is that groomers can set up trade accounts.

This is like, oh my God.

You know, people actually giving groomers trade accounts so they can.

We, we have that with faith in nature and all of our students are like, what?

I know.

So we, we get our students faith in nature trade accounts and God the difference because why shouldn't we have a trade account?

Well, this is, this is about.

Yeah, this is about professionalizing the industry and treating us businesses.

So whereabouts are you in the world?

Where Lancashire Is that?

Northwest.

Northwest, yeah.

Okay.

I'll send you this post poster anyway and I can, I can, I would, I, I would like to see them like coming into your place and delivering like a lunch and learn to all of your students to raise awareness and that would impact towards their off the job.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

I've got their website up now so I can have a, have a good look.

But send me what you've got as well.

Yeah, the website's under construction I think.

Okay.

Because we, we do hydro here as well.

So we're a big hydrotherapy center as well.

So in terms of the veterinary bits and pieces, that's interesting too.

So we've got a pool, treadmills, laser therapy, physiotherapy.

So that's a whole nother sort of section of the business here as well.

So.

Yeah, interesting.

What I'll do, I'll send you this poster anyway, but then I'll pop you in a email with.

And their head of sales, I suppose is his name.

He's a bakery nurse and he's been on my book times.

Yeah, yeah, perfect.

They like, just to give you a bit of context, they do a white called CLX Whites, which helps with yeasty and itchy feet.

And their biggest seller last year and they sold like 30 million products like.

And with the groom they're actually selling to the.

The trade price to groomers is cheaper than what the vets are able to get at, so it's better profit.

Yeah, that's interesting, isn't it?

Yeah, I mean, absolutely.

That, that trade model is just crazy for grooming.

So, you know, to have as many people as possible offering that is you know, definitely welcome, isn't.

I think it links in with the groomus ethos as well because they want to care for their pets now obviously they're in, they're in the veterinary world so they understand this crossover between prescription, you know, between diagnosis and treatment and stuff.

So yeah, that can be addressed quite easily.

But I think it, it joins up with the groomers because, you know, you can actually see a dog in front of you and go, right, you've got really manky ears.

Like we've got an app, it's got a bit of an ear infection at the moment.

We're using mixed immune ear drops within.

The vet's gone.

Yeah.

Amazing.

And God, you see, you see, you know, so many owners just back it off going to the vets because, you know the vet that bills are so high.

Yeah.

And also time as well, you know, so people are so busy nowadays that yeah, they want to care for their pets but maybe they just don't have time to go for that appointment or whatever else.

So I think the more services we can offer, it just makes us look more professional as well, doesn't it then?

Well, we'll never get this.

We've worked with the rcbs, we had a veterinary clinic, we did a vaccination clinic and I don't think we'll ever see the, the industry join because they're just very arrogant and very like anti anyone else.

But we like the, we could be an arm of their.

By helping their pets.

We're like, yeah, some part of the care plan.

But I think the problem with that though isn't it is that we're not regulated, it's not a regulated industry.

And I think until that happens that's gonna, you know, it's gonna put other industries off working with us.

Yeah.

Yes.

You might have some like, you know, your guys that are working to a really high standard but potentially you might have others that just don't care.

So it's tricky, isn't it?

I do get it.

Yeah.

And if you ever see me commenting about regulation, please message me and tell me to stop because I promised myself I will not get into that because I don't want to be anywhere near the regulation side of things because someone's going to really mess it up for the dog community.

I'm not pro regulation, but I am pro standards.

I think there should be some standards there.

But I think our consumers are very clever and they can see the groomers that have worked hard to get really high skills and high standards and God, you see some Groomers that aren't qualified, that are absolutely amazing.

You know, I, I do get it, but what, what I do understand from the training side is there's so much more behind qualifications than just the skills.

And it's this sort of stuff, isn't it?

It's the knowledge on everything else that sometimes can be an issue because you could.

Yeah, I, I think I'm pro.

I am.

I mean, I'm an ex police officer, so I should be, probably should be pro regulation, but I just don't feel that it'll ever be put in properly or if, you know, regulations, they'll never be enforced, so what's the point?

No, no.

Well, that's very true, isn't it?

And it does just make it a lot harder for.

I think you'd lose a lot of groomers because groomers don't have time anyway.

And making them jump through hoops like kennels are having to for licenses and things like that.

I just think a lot of groomers won't do it.

Yeah.

And unless it's a groomer heading up the regulation, which it won't be, they'll.

Go straight to the RSV, RCVs and they'll regulate many things that we do.

And I, I'm like, well, you know, hand stripping, you're ripping hair out of dogs.

Is that, Is that nice?

You know, should that be banned?

That's where.

That's how I get myself into trouble.

Can you imagine when we start talking about regulation?

Oh, my God.

So don't let me go anywhere near it.

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