Young men ending up “in the system” can feel like a cyclical, hopeless situation, but hope is always found in the parents, teachers, social workers, and others who strive to foster them toward a better path.

Shawn Mercer is one of those social workers who shared his experience in this episode of The Akkeri podcast. Shawn has been in and around the child/youth care and social work fields for over 20 years, so he has an educated and unique perspective on the challenges many young men face and the solutions required.

This is a conversation about emotional intelligence, understanding the needs of others, mentorship…and, well, stacking wood (you’ll have to listen to make sense of that one).

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They need to know that you're a fan of them and that you'll give them grief because they're worth it. And some of that is just like being genuinely caring about them and think that they have potential. They have to feel it, they have to believe it.

I was asked, what do I look for in a leader?

One of the things that came to mind was emotional intelligence, having a good connection with what you're feeling, why you're feeling that way, and just being in tune with yourself. I think we have to evolve beyond just kind of swallowing it or just pushing it down and pushing it back, but you know that that's a community effort.

You are listening to The Akkeri Podcast, a show about men and masculinities, the challenges that modern men face, and how to chart a better way forward. I'm your host, Matt Howlett, mental health coach and founder of The Akkeri.

In this episode, we dive into the world of youth care with social worker Shawn Mercer. Shawn has spent over 20 years in and around the child youth care and social work field fields.

So he has an educated and unique perspective into the challenges that some men are facing as well as the solutions. Sean is a man who loves his partner, travel and wood stoves, and is a passionate advocate for community development. Well, Mr.Shawn Mercer, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Thanks for having me.

Yeah. So you. I met you through Jason Walsh, RNC officer that I had on the podcast a couple episodes back, and he mentioned that you were in youth care.

Yeah, yeah.

So. And you've been doing that for how long now?

I've been in and around youth care for about 21 years now in like child youth care, capacity educator, social work as well. So in care, out of care, employment, outreach, you kind of name it. Some, some. Some of the.

Some of the varieties of youth care that you would do, you know.

Right, cool.

Well, yeah, I mean, that's the main thing I wanted to jump into, but what I like to do, because I'm, you know, going to assume there's a whole lot of people that don't know. Don't know yourself, don't know your story. Can you give us just like, you know, Cole's notes, background, Where'd you come from?

What brought you into that world?

Cool. Yeah, yeah, we'll do that. Yeah.

So I always tell people I'm from Newfoundland, Labrador, because I was born in Bay Vert, but I ended up kind of in every little nook and cranny, kind of Porto Basque and Glover Town, Fairyland, Mount Pearl, a Lot with, with my family when it comes to their work and things like that. So that's kind of like where I come from. I'm from the island. I'm an island guy. Yeah.

And I guess really, I guess how I got into youth care, I mean originally it started with trying to pay the bills when I was in university and now kind of starting off that way.

And my interest in youth care kind of expanded when it came to, you know, in my early 20s, I became more political and kind of philosophy and community became really important to me.

And I guess, you know, I wanted to find a way to be a part of the community and do my part to, you know, help engage with people who, you know, might not have had the same chances that maybe I did and you know, get a leg up in certain areas. And yeah, I guess that kind of just gravitated to. I did youth care work in groups care, some people call residential care.

Yep.

I did five years of social work in care and protection over in the uk. That kind of kick started my social work career.

And then on from there I went and did five years with a family based care supervisory kind of program and looking after the youth staff or the youth care workers who look after the youth. And right now I'm in education, employment and social enterprise work.

So kind of done a few things in the career now and that's kind of where, that's kind of where I'm at now.

Right. So is there anything about your life, you're like your personal life that brought you into that specifically?

Like, was there any experiences growing up anything that was like really good and you wanted to share that or really bad and you understand where youth are coming from? Like, is there anything like that?

Yeah, I mean, you know, there's, I think there's a blend of personal things that have happened. Some of them are perhaps more positive light, some are more negative.

I think that, you know, personally, I mean, when I, when I was growing up, my dad was a police officer and my, my mother was, was a, was a reverend in, in a, in, in a church. No way. Yeah. Yeah.

So I mean, I think, I think from the start of it, I think I, I learned kind of justice from my dad and the social aspect, I think I learned kind of more from my mom.

Right.

So that's where the social justice stuff came in weird now that I'm an atheist and, you know, I'm kind of, kind of like. Well, I kind of had to make my own little kind of carve out and everything else, but lessons from them for sure, I think.

You know, growing up and all that, you know, I definitely, I had my own mental health struggles and I had to kind of figure out my way when it came to, you know, what was going on for me. Yeah. And I also, you know, you know, tough living in a small rural community when you're the cop, son, you know.

Yeah.

All right. Got my, got my ass kicked a few times, right.

That Mercer kid.

It's one of those. It's one of those things. But I really think, you know, you know, I was always kind of interested and in tune with. Even though I didn't.

Might not have known at the time, but I was always interested in like, in politics and how communities are built. Whether that's, Whether that was in our church or whether that was in our community or whether that was in a local rec league.

It was always kind of an interesting thing about power dynamics and how things were. And I just saw just my community. I saw times where we weren't so strong and times where we needed to strengthen and things like that.

So for me, it was always about being a community member. So that's kind of where my interest kind of came from. Right. You know, there's no like one moment or one event or anything like that.

But I do know that, you know, as I, as I got older, in my 20s, I spent a little bit of time being homeless. And, you know, I was thinking myself like, how I, how, how did this happen?

And, you know, I was kind of like, you know, I had some people around me that helped support me out of it. And, you know, I want to think that that that's kind of what drove me to want to help assist with people in my day to day and life.

You just said you were homeless for a period of time.

Yeah, yeah, for a little while, yeah. University. Yeah, I was, it was privileged homelessness because I was, I was able to live out of my old car.

Okay.

But yeah, it was, it was during, during university and at the time, actually, believe it or not, I was, I was doing a field placement for, for an agency who supported youth were homeless. And no way. I ended up becoming one of those, One of those young people.

Wow. Yeah. Okay. So.

So many different ways we can go, but now that we're kind of into it, I kind of want to hear more about the personal side before we get into the work side. What was going on in life at that period of time? Did you say you were homeless? Like living in your car while you were in school?

Yeah, in university.

Okay. Yeah. Okay. And just for everybody listening, you're in St. John's right?

I am St. John, yeah.

Okay, so you studied at Memorial University.

Yeah.

Okay, so how, how did that all come to be, man?

You know, it was, it was one of those things where I guess, you know, I guess, you know, just with regards to, you know, our family life and how we communicated, we didn't always have, you know, forward communication and sort of communication and, and, and, and I guess, you know, a lot of things don't get dealt with when that kind of dynamic is happening. And you know, I guess, you know, there's, there's, there's things in our family, you know, people weren't very happy.

You know, we weren't each other and people's needs weren't getting met. And you know, I, I endured a lot of stress when it came to kind of what was going on in my family.

And at some point I just, I just realized like, I couldn't, I couldn't take it anymore and I didn't need to live in these conditions. Right.

So it's almost primarily your own decision is what I'm hearing.

Yeah, well, it was, I mean, it was not my decision to have to endure all the stress that was going on or what was being around me.

Yeah.

But I just, I couldn't take it anymore. I couldn't, I couldn't handle it. And I didn't, I didn't have, you know, like I have family that are, you know, on the island, but outside the island.

I have, I have family that are in bc. Yeah, I moved around a lot. So, you know, being moving around and kind of the Rolling Stone thing was, was not new for me.

Yeah.

But yeah, I just, it was just, it was just hurting too much to be living in the household and not being heard and um, not, not getting what I needed.

Right.

And you know, I decided that, you know, enough was enough, so. Yeah.

Was that your undergrad while you were studying? Undergrad?

Yeah, I'm a social degree.

Okay. How many years in were you when that like kind of started? When you were starting in your car?

Probably. So I did two years pre social work and that was a five year degree program at the time.

So it would have been in my, my third year, going into my fourth year, I believe. Yeah.

Yeah. Geez.

Wow.

Man. Sorry. That's an intense situation, especially like going through undergrad. I can't imagine.

Yeah, yeah, it was. It wasn't easy. It's, you know, I. I think, you know, I.

I guess you can always say, like, you know, all people had it harder than me, and there's also people who had it easier than me, too. Yeah, right.

Yeah. Sometimes comparison is helpful, but I mean, like, you know, how far do you want to go with it? Right.

Exactly. Yeah. I'm trying to be balanced about it. Really.

Yeah. Well, speak to me about. Speak to me. You are speaking to me.

Talk to me a little bit about what that experience was, how that translated into the work that you do now, because obviously, I'm sure there were other experiences that you pull from, as we all do, and things that we learned through just random ongoings in life. But what was that like specifically? Or.

I mean, do you have anybody that you're dealing with now or you have worked with that has been in a similar situation?

Oh, good. I would say similar.

I mean, I know no two situations are alike, but I guess, you know, I spent a lot of time working with youth, especially young males who are dealing with homelessness.

Right.

And, you know, I want to preface this with, like, you know, I don't think, you know, just because I'm a person with lived experience, I don't promote that a whole lot. Like, I don't speak about this a whole lot. I don't put all my weight into being a person with lived experience.

I believe, like, skillset and all kinds of experiences kind of are helpful.

Of course, that said, you know, it does kind of, I guess, you know, I don't want to look through my own lens, but I can see the lens of how things happen for people and taking blame off people for the situations that they're in. I think that we have some responsibility with regards to the choices we make.

However, there are some times where we have little choices or we have few choices, and sometimes those choices are provided to us. And, you know, I guess I can empathize with folks who.

Who don't choices or feel like they got to get away from a situation if it's not safe or if it's not good for their health. Right. So.

Yeah. Well, lived experience is a great recipe for empathy. You know what I mean?

Yeah, I think so. I think so. Yeah.

I know that it's not just an academic exercise, you know, then it's kind of like you can learn techniques, but there has to be that human component to it, too. So.

Yeah, well, talk to me more about that because, like, obviously in the work that I'm doing, you know, the human component is that I carry some of the weight of whatever it is that the man that I'm working with is going through. You know, I mean, I think about it from time to time.

Some of that is from more of, you know, I want to think of a way to interact, to intervene in a more helpful way. You know, it's more practical. But some of it is just, man, like, I'm a dude. I'm a human.

I've probably went through something similar or maybe even the exact same thing, because a lot of what I focus on with guys is lived experience, the things that I've been through, the things that I've learned. But like you said, skill set, all that comes into it. But what do you feel, what am I trying to say here?

In the run of a week, what is that experience like for you that lives to experience that, the lived component where, like, you are carrying some of the weight. You know what I mean? How do you. How do you process that? Because you are. You're. You're in it. You're. You're dealing with youth on a daily basis, right?

Yeah. I mean, it's a little different now because I'm. I'm. My. The capacity work that I do now is. Is more supporting.

Supporting staff and supporting, you know, the youth, supporting the coordinators. But, you know, in that being said, in the last couple of years, I have certainly done direct with youth and do carry some of those things.

And I guess for me, you know, it's just finding different outlets and different ways to kind of balance things out. Like, as you mentioned. I think that's a nice way of putting it.

You know, you do have a tendency to carry some of these things, so it's about taking a break from carrying it. And I think that's where healthy boundaries and things like that come into play. So I do, you know, I do find ways to switch off from work.

I do find ways to, you know, you know, decompress. I have. I have a really nice. I have really nice friends. I have an excellent family life.

So, you know, just kind of, you know, sometimes unpacking or like, decompressing at the end of the day and just finding ways to relax and not take it all on and not. Not be responsible for it all is really, really important.

Can you. Sorry, can you just speak to some specifics around that?

Because I feel like whenever something like this comes up, like, this is a habitual thing, you know, What I mean, like, well, at least that's what it should be if you want to be a healthy individual, you know what I mean?

Because like you're, you're working and okay, not right now with youth that are staying crisis, but over the years you have, and you have to have these daily habits in order to not carry it and not stress yourself out. So what does that look like specifically?

Because I think a lot of men, we, we have the tendency to kind of push it down or at least try to act as if it doesn't matter as much because we don't always see the impact of unprocessed emotions, you know, on our physiology. You know what I mean? So what, what is that like for you specifically?

Yeah, yeah, no, I agree, I agree. I think for me, you know, I've, I find, you know, it, for me it's a self care thing and I'll, I'll talk about like specifics now.

And I think self care is not a, not an activity, but it's a way of being. And I think that becomes part of a routine. So for example, I'll give you a really, I'll give really kind of like couple simple examples. For me.

Like, for me, every day one of my hobbies is around, is around burning wood and cutting wood, you know, wood, curing it, drying it, stacking it and then preparing it for the fireplace which we have in the house here.

Oh, nice. Jealous.

It's on tonight. Here.

Oh, you'd be the best heat you can have, man.

Yeah, great. It's great.

Yeah.

But like, you know, it's not mindless, but it's, it's not, for me, it's not abstract. It's a concrete thing that I can do and it's something that has a routine.

It's something that's physical, which, you know, is part of like getting exercise. You know, I, I'm not someone who goes to the gym for exercise.

I find other ways to get my exercise and that can be one of them and you know, something nice about, you know, and I think about things like, I think about like our relationship with things a lot of times think about things in terms of relationships.

So, you know, in my relationship with that, you know, there's, there's relationship with control that, you know, I can control where the wood goes and how it is and there's even an artistic component to it, like the way you want to stack it and the way that and all that. So I think there's, there's, there's pieces of that that are really, really helpful. And you know, it's, it's.

It's hard work sometimes, but it's also kind of easy work at times. It's not too hard on the head. It can be hard on the hands.

But yeah, no, I think like, you know, just that whole routine of doing some of those things, there's something really nice and something really natural and grounding about that. So I really like thing, you know, and I also, you know, tell you truth, you know, another simple example in the day is, you know, I have a.

I have a social brain. There's no question about it.

But, you know, I tend to teeter with like, my introversion and my extroversion and I allow my introversion to be expressed too. So I do like to take some time in the evenings and there's like, lots of times where I won't be connected to my phone.

There'll be times where, you know, I just. I just need my away time from people and, you know, working with people and working through their stuff and in their. All that stuff.

Sometimes you just need away from that and you need away from people. So I, I take, I take space too. I take some space from people and I kind of enjoy my alone time.

I never would have said that 20 years ago, but I definitely, definitely think so now that I thrive on that. And.

Yeah. Are you in an area that you enjoy, like, being outside in general? Like, you know, Today, here in St. John's we had a great day, Nice weather.

Good fall day.

Yeah, the fall too. Yeah, no, we're, we're. We. We have a park not too far, so like, we can walk there. And driving past is really, really nice.

And my, My good friend and I, we. We built a cabin a few years ago up the shore.

Nice.

Yeah. There's times where, you know, if, if, if.

If Maureen can't make it up with me, I might just do a night by myself in the cabin and kind of just do the recluse thing and just, kind of just, Just take time and space and just be like in nature and just kind of enjoy the quiet, which, Which I relish.

Does this type of conversation come up with the youth or even the youth leaders that you work with? Like, you know, even the same type of questions that I'm asking you because you're in more of a leadership role now.

So, like, how do you encourage them? Do you see that in their lives this type of conversation come up?

I mean, do you mean, like things that they do to look after themselves?

Yeah, well, I mean, correct Me if I'm wrong, but you are in a position now where you're kind of helping other leaders in their projects, but you're also dealing with. I mean, you're working with some students, some youth, Correct?

Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. So they're not necessarily like, you know, it's not necessarily the group home care context.

No, not really.

Youth in crisis. Okay. Yeah. So that's what I was curious about. It's like, you know, are you. How do you. Are you passing that along, or do you have opportunity for that?

You know, like a mentoring opportunity, right?

Oh, yeah, yeah.

I mean, I think, you know, I think that one of the things, like, the conversation has certainly changed in the last few years with respect to, you know, how we support each other within the social. The social care context.

And I mean, for me, yeah, I mean, I like to know the people, like, the people I'm supporting, whether that's be youth or that. Be like, youth care workers or. Or coordinators, you know, what. What. What charges your battery, what depletes batteries.

And, you know, if, you know, obviously there's a boundary component as well, but if they allow for it, you know, it's having conversations about how you're taking care of yourself and, you know, do you.

Do you need to stay plugged in and plugged in socially or, you know, is there something you need to do differently this weekend or something to do this differently this evening so that, you know, you can be at work and be okay? And if you can't be okay, like, you know, what. Is there anything we can do to support you to be okay and maybe even get you back to work?

I think, you know, the pandemic and a few things have really kind of changed the way people kind of interact and have relationships with work and with, you know, colleagues and things like that, too, you know? Yeah.

I think that some of those conversations about how people are looking after themselves, I'm generally curious about that with the people I support.

Yeah.

And hoping that they're able to be in a space that they can take those opportunities. Number one, it's good for the work, but more importantly, it's the person. Right?

Yeah. Yeah.

That was one of the things about youth care that gave me the most satisfaction, was the opportunities, although it seemed like they were few and far between to, like, really get through to a youth that you're working with. It was usually guys, but we did have a girl there, I think maybe two or three, and that was three years with Waypoint. So I don't remember if we.

Because we only met in person once, but like. Oh, yeah, yeah.

So the three years that I did with Waypoints, and I think all three of them were with our mutual friend Jason, is those opportunities that we had to really have, like, just a genuine conversation, you know what I mean, where there was like, kind of low stress, you know, the youth that you're working with on that shift or in. In general, if you're at a specific house where they're actually opening up to you and having like a real conversation, you know what I mean?

And it's not always like, you know, me teaching you how to live life, but just two of us doing life together, you know what I mean? I learned from you, you learn from me. We. We carry each other's burdens. We have conversations about things that matter and help each other out.

And I mean, that was the kind of. Kind of work or the aspect of that work that made that very satisfying for me. A lot of times it was stress.

I have, I think, more memories of stress and of feeling like I'm just trying to keep everything together. You know, no one gets hurt, no one burns the house. You know what I mean? Like, hopefully the cops don't have to come by. You know what I mean?

Yeah, no, I hear that. Yeah. I mean, I. I think teachable moments is. Is not about teaching someone, you know, directly lecture or anything like that. I mean, I.

I remember at one of the programs I worked in Sunday evenings and we were supposed to have group, you know, during the midday, and nobody ever wanted group and no one talked about feelings and all that kind of stuff. But, you know, every now and then, you know, the guys be coming home and I'd always, for me, I put on the kettle and have a cup of tea. That.

That's one of the things I do every day just to have a cup of tea and.

Right.

You know, that I'll have the kettle and put the kettle on, and I have a teapot and everything. I've had a teapot everywhere I've worked.

And then all of a sudden, before they're going to bed, which is past their bedtime, past their curfew and all this stuff, but they're telling us, tell them about their day and like, you know, things happen in their day that even though they were supposed to do programming stuff, they didn't Other things came up. So we were able to have a relationship that way. Sit down in, like a calm, somewhat calm environment.

Yeah.

And have a cup of tea and just listen, like, just listen and chat. And it's not clinically feel and it's got that just human to human connection. Right. And so, yeah, I mean, yeah, that's, that's what matters. Yeah.

I always found that that was, that was challenging because I think in, specifically in the youth care context, you've got. What was it they used to call us? Fish, like, when you were. Is, is that the, is that the term when you're new?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I couldn't, couldn't remember if I had that correctly, but yeah, I mean, like, you know, they're, they're kind of sussing you out. Right.

And especially for those who didn't have like a permanent position because, I don't know, the way it is, like in the organizations you work for or maybe the way it is now with Waypoints, I'm not sure.

But back when I was there, I think my almost my full first year, I was just building up hours and applying for positions, so I was just, you know, bouncing between, I think it was like seven different houses at that point. Right. So I, you know, see, see one guy one day and maybe not see him again for like another two weeks or he could be gone. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

So then, and then and there that, that, that puts, that, that creates that, that, that whole rhythm and system of like, having to test you out, like, are you to be trusted? And all that kind of stuff because, you know, they don't see it a whole lot.

And, you know, all that stuff, I think, comes from like an emotional area, you know, like trying to test you out and you got to kind of prove it to them that, like, yeah, I can hold water or, or not. Right.

So. But yeah. Or even just that you're a safe person.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Yeah, I agree.

Yeah.

Yeah. No, it's, you know, they're not going to get that in a shift. They're not going to get that in a week.

Yeah, there's a lot of, A lot of, A lot of hours that need to be put into that and a lot of, a lot of energy, but, you know, it's certainly worth it. And you can see, you can see it when you get that relationship with a young person, but it's very. That situation when you're bouncing around. I know.

Yeah. So speaking about, you moved around a fair bit. Did you do this type of work in those other places. I know you did, you did in the uk.

That's what you mentioned earlier.

Okay.

And then coming back here, primarily been in the St. John's and the St. John's region. So I've worked with youth, like, say in St. John's also, like conception Bay South.

Yeah. So what, what I'm kind of getting. Trying to get at is that you've seen different ways of, of doing it. I don't know if the systems.

I'm assuming there's differences between the different, like programming and, and the way that the workers would interact the students and how often they get to see them or, you know, like shift work at, you know, when I started. And then eventually I got a position where I was at one house all the time. You know what I mean? Definitely gave me more opportunity.

But I actually had a night shift, so I didn't see them all the time, but, you know, first thing in the morning. I remember one guy always wanted bacon in the mornings, right.

And I had to learn that he didn't like it as crispy as I liked it because I just, like, that was my default. I make crispy bacon. And he come in, he had a hard St. John's action, like, Matt, boy, like, you burnt me bacon.

And I, I hope, I hope to God he hears this right, and has a good laugh about it, because I know I did. I, you know, did it that way once and that was it. But I'll get away from bacon.

Did you see, like, a better way of doing it, or do you think that this is just the way that the system kind of functions? And, you know, you can get a lot of good work done with this setup, but it's, it's got its limitations. You know what I mean?

Like, what do you think about all that?

I mean, I've seen. I've seen, you know, residential care or group care when you have like eight young people living there and, you know, all kinds of staff.

And I've also seen it with just two people and siblings. And I've seen, you know, independent living arrangement where there's just one kid and there's one staff.

And, you know, of course, varying degrees of needs of the youth is always a piece, you know, when it comes to, like, you know, their cognitive abilities or, you Know if they lash out, depending on kind of where they, how they express things physically. I definitely saw differences. I've seen differences in the UK and I saw differences when I, when I came back.

I, I was fortunate to be part of supporting like family based care, which is, is, is kind of like a professionalized foster care type of, of situations. I think that unfortunately starts early. Right. Like, like a lot of these kids, you know, they have like attachment stuff going on early.

They've role models who have imprinted violence and things like that early.

And I think that, you know, unless, unless governments or nonprofits or the state can intervene early, we're going to continue to have things like, you know, programs where there's four and five kids who have lots of trauma and lots of emotional and behavioral issues and put them with and I mean, can it work? I mean, I guess it can work, but I mean, what does it mean to work? Like they're going to get back to their families? That would be great.

You know, it's no good to see kids popping around.

I've seen kids bobbing around in the care system for, you know, 11, 12, 13 years and they're 11, 12, 13 years old and not adopted and not back with family of origin.

So, you know, I think that like, you know, the reality is it comes down to resources a lot of times and if we're not going to put the resources in it, then we're going to have, we're going to have certain outcomes for young people and you know, kids who know that they're hurting and they're around other hurting kids and it's tough.

Yeah, right. What do you think?

I was going to say what is the main thing, but there's definitely more ways than just one of getting through to a student, getting through to youth. I keep saying student because that's like the world I was in for a while as a youth pastor, but gotcha.

How do you get through to a kid that is as struggling and like the methods that have the most impact, we'll say, you know what I mean? There's probably several. Like in that talk with Jason keeps coming to mind because we talked a little bit about this.

It's like, what are the, like, you know, you're talking about resources. Well, where do you invest those resources?

Right, yeah, yeah.

I mean, I mean, for as far as like techniques and resources and things like that are concerned in the crossover, I mean, I spent a lot of energy with, you know, you know, providing, providing empathy and understanding and wanting to, you know, find out, you Know, how did you, how did you decide to make that decision? How did you decide to rob that store? Or you know, how did you decide to make that crack pipe?

And you know, like, just trying to be, like genuinely don't have to try just be genuinely curious as to how they make their decisions and be curious about how they got to this stage and ask questions. But I also think too, you know, the building of the relationship is everything for me.

So, you know, if it's, you know, being doing ball hockey stuff or they want to learn how to cook something or you know, if they want to read or get involved in something, I mean, I think that, you know, we all got to figure out something that we're good at. Some of the kids that we've worked with, they're really good at. Pissing staff off, they're really good at. That's a skill.

And I think that it needs to be celebrated. Some of these things need to be celebrated because they're good at it.

And it might be an adaptive, kind of an adaptive thing that they've needed to do.

But I think like, you know, they, they need to know that you're, you're a fan of them and that you'll, you'll, you'll give them grief because they're worth it.

And some of that is just like just being genuinely caring about them and think that they have potential and they need to feel, they can't just be told that. They have to feel it and they have to believe it.

So I remember one time, you know, I was working with a youth and he was quite young and I remember in the evening, you know, we were trying to get the lad settled and of course they weren't settled. And bedtime could be tough for a lot of the kids that we work with.

And I remember he wanted to be read a bedtime story and of course he had a sharp as well in his hand and we weren't at a stage where we could do a cutting contract because he was too young and you know, he was there cutting himself and I was reading the story in his bed and he was like, Sean, this is the most relaxed I've been all day. And he just fell asleep. So like I didn't have to wrestle the like, I just had to take it and like tuck him in and he went, went to bed.

And I saw him a few years, actually a few weeks ago and it was like four years ago, 13, 14 years ago since I worked with him and we were just having a chat or whatever and he's doing really well. Like, he's. He's had a lot of. Oh, my gosh, he's. He's gone through a lot in his young life, but he seems to be doing well. And I just.

I think about that, you know, like, kind of met him where he was at, and that's what he needed in that time. And, you know, it's. It's not something you can always do, but when you got those opportunities, you got to take a risk and, you know.

Yeah, I mean, that sounds like the personal connection. Is that a good way to name that?

Definitely, yes. I think personal connection is everything.

Like, I think there's sometimes a bit of a shift of, like, in social care, of, like, managerialism versus care. We can't forget the care part. And the care has to be that human connection. So we got to find those little moments.

And, you know, it's not going to be like a Hollywood.

You know, it's not going to be like a Hollywood ending or a Hollywood event, but we do have to find those moments where, when they're vulnerable, that we see them.

What do you think are the requirements for that? I mean, I'm kind of assuming, obviously, empathy. You got to be able to empathize with the person you're working with.

But what else do you see that really works well in youth care workers? Because, I mean, obviously this is going to translate across to just about anybody, not even specific fields, but just humans, human interaction.

You know what I mean? How can we get to a place where we have that ability to make a genuine personal, personal connection?

Like, I ask about this because this is something that I'm very passionate about with, with the work, with the acre. I think men need to work on this aspect of themselves, of being able to share more about themselves, you know what I mean?

To talk about our feelings, talk about our emotions, talk about our thoughts. You know what I mean? Talk about why something is hard.

Yeah, no, I like that. That, that's.

That that's kind of helpful for my thinking here now is that I think about, you know, I was asked, you know, not too long ago, like, what do I look for in a leader? And leader that can be formal or informal and everything. But, you know, one of.

One of the things that came to mind was emotional intelligence and emotional intelligence, you know, I'm not going to define it, but, like, I think that's just, you know, having a good connection with what you're going through, what you're feeling, why you're feeling that way, and just being in tune with yourself. So, you know, it starts with you. You know, it starts with you.

So, you know, when it comes to like the skill sets and these types of things, I think like checking in with yourself and checking in with your people and being okay and making sure that that kind of stuff works for you to be in a good place.

I think the sharing component that you talk about, it's an interesting one, you know, in youth care because, you know, there's a boundary that needs to be kind of looked at. And I'm not saying that it's got to be a hard boundary, but depending on your relationship, then that can sway a little bit.

Between the leader and the student, you mean?

Yeah, exactly, exactly. But I think, you know, there's a lot of distractions. We have a lot of distractions. And one we have right now is this.

You and me, we're having a conversation and a lot of people find that very intimate. And a lot of males that I know, they, they don't like that they're not in culture to have that one on one and have an intimate conversation.

And it can be very, and it can be, it can be. Make them feel vulnerable and maybe they, they didn't have the experiences with role models to be able to do those types of things.

So I think, you know, you know, allowing situations and spaces for males to, to say, you know, that it's, it's, it's okay to talk about these things and, you know, it's, it's okay or it doesn't, you know, it doesn't feel okay when things are bad and when things are hard and when things are tough. And I just think that it's okay to talk about it.

And I, I don't know, you know, a lot of our, A lot of kids I've worked with, they, they've acted out versus talking it out, and it's much easier. Right? And it's, yeah.

And, and that's, that's probably more socially acceptable way of doing things or maybe a family accepted way of doing things, depending on where they're coming from.

But yeah, you know what that makes me think of my, my wife has been in that, in that world, like she's a trained counselor and we were having a conversation about that, that similar type of thing about why, you know, they might do what they're doing and you know, why it is that that's the easier choice, like, you know, to act out part of that. And like, I was the kind of thing that I knew, but as soon as she said it, I was like, oh, yeah, like, that makes so much sense.

And I kind of knew that, but I've never, like, really heard it spoken. Is that for a lot of them, I think the world that they're in, it's almost more helpful in some ways.

I think it might seem more helpful at the time to have that strong outer shell, you know what I mean? Where at least you're projecting that, you know, I'm tough. I don't need to talk about it. This is not that hard for me. I'm not feeling sad.

You know what I mean? I'm just like, you know, don't mess with me. Because, like, they're.

They're bouncing around from house to house, they're going in and out of juvie, whatever the situation is. Right. And that's. That's a tough spot to be in. I get it.

Yeah. Well, I think about it as, you know, that shell that you talk about, that's one that's. That's. That's doesn't get.

That doesn't get developed overnight. And often these things are protective shells. You know what I mean? Like, that. That's. That's about protecting. So they might need.

Feel the need to have to protect themselves and maybe save face amongst, like, circles and cultures that they're there. So, you know, it's. It's not. It's. No, there's no point in me judging it. I have to try to understand it.

And even if they are like, you know, if someone's taking a swing at me or if someone has, you know, kicked my car or whatever, I can easily look at a behavior. But to me, they're communicating. They're always communicating. They're communicating, going on for them, and they're communicating a need.

Yes. Good.

No, I'm not. I'm not. I don't want to. I don't want to pass it off as, like, you know, our soul or anything like that.

No, I did that a couple times.

Yeah, you use a pejorative. But, you know, I think that it's just important to, like, look at where it's coming from. And as you said, you know, that tough outer shell, um, that.

That. That shell, any shell that I know of is not built to attack. A shell is meant to protect.

So if that's what they need to do to keep themselves safe and to survive, then that's what they've needed to do. Um, I just feel like, you know, we have to make sure we have.

Create spaces and opportunities for them to see that there's other ways to do it, and, and, and learn that not every situation that they've been in is going to be like that going forward, that there, there, there can be safe people around and things like that. But yeah, I was learned.

You know, have you seen education play a role in like, the different programs that you've been part of?

Like when you mentioned emotional intelligence is an important, we'll say, skill for someone to have and not just as a youth care worker, but I mean, obviously for just about anybody.

But I mean, have you seen any programs where it's more about education and teaching, you know, the mind body connection and how, you know, it's super important to have that emotional intelligence and know how to, you know, have healthy boundaries and you know what I mean?

Yeah, I mean, I've seen it to various degrees depending on where I've worked. I mean, there's, there's places where, you know, we've been trained, you know, like therapeutic crisis intervention, that's one of them.

And that how to effectively learn from debriefing and taking crisis and making that an opportunity for learning.

And, and really essentially what it is, is, is finding other ways to cope that, that that might be healthier or might be more, more beneficial for that person.

You know, I've worked in programs where, you know, we've, we've, we've spent more time doing some reflection and reflecting on kind of what's just happened and reflecting on what's about to come and things like that. I find that, that, that's really helpful. That's kind of a little bit more proactive of the program per se.

But say, you know, when it comes to like, my work with other social workers, you know, we've, we've reflected on kind of, you know, the behaviors that we're seeing and what it's telling us and what does that mean developmentally and what does that mean neurodevelopmentally and you know, what does that mean from a trauma informed care perspective? And you know, I think, you know, it's really important.

One of the things that we've talked about in the last few years is not, not reacting to a behavior, but responding to a need. And that comes up through reflection before, during and after a crisis.

But yeah, I mean, there's definitely programs out there that I've seen that I've been a part of that are in line with whether it be harm reduction or whether it be healthier coping. Unfortunately, some of the programs I've worked with, the kids are there and it's mandatory that they're there. And they didn't ask to be there.

And then some programs I've worked with youth, it's not mandatory, and they choose to be there. And those are two very different groups of young people. So I think that matters, too.

But, yeah, I think that I've heard of even programs that I've worked under, and they have younger children, and there's a cognitive behavioral therapy type of piece involved when it comes to stopping and thinking about your actions before you do them and things like that. I think that early intervention stuff. Yeah, really, Matt, I can't say it enough. I mean, you know, that prevention stuff is just. Is just huge.

Like getting. Getting a kid at 25 versus 15 versus 5. I, you know, I have fortunately worked in those age groups, and early intervention, it's just so key. Right?

Yeah. Yeah, You've. You've mentioned, I suppose it's a concept a couple times now, like responding to, not necessarily the behavior, but the need.

Can you say more about that?

Well, I mean, you know, like, as an example. So, you know, some of the kids that we work with, you know, they might be neurodiverse or they could be. They could have had trauma or what have you.

And some of the. A lot of these young people, I guess, and children have a hard time expressing what it is they need.

And a lot of times it's because they haven't gotten all their needs met. And I'm talking about basic needs, you know what I mean?

Like food and a roof and water and, you know, physical touch, you know, and those types of things. So, you know, it could be that, you know, I know that, like, one kid, he. I'll tell you a little story now.

A few years ago, a kid, we were at summer camp, and we had just met each other, and I was going to become his key worker. I didn't know this at the time, but he didn't either.

And we were at summer camp and, you know, we were all having to mess around over by the wharf and people were swimming. There's floaties and all that kind of stuff. And he was kind of like splashing me and all that.

And all the, all the guys were getting rods out of that because he was flashing me and all that kind of stuff. And I was like, yeah. He said, you keep that up. He said, I'm going to get you back.

Yeah, Pick on the youth care work. Everybody loves that. Yeah.

Yeah. So anyway, we were. I thought we were having fun and all that kind of stuff.

Anyway, as it happened, he kept on splashing me kind of like, doing all that thing. And I wasn't angry or anything. I was like, I was playing along. I kind of knew what was going.

And I remember, like, I went to pick him up and throw him in the water. I knew he could swim and there was lots of safety and stuff around.

Right.

And he write the balls. And it was. Oh, man, it was like. It was the hardest. Yeah, it was really, really bad.

And anyway, yeah, I dropped them on the wharf, throw them in the water. But anyway, we. We had a chat. Myself and one of my colleagues had Chad after, and we. We subsequently had him in for a chat as well.

And, you know, I could react. And one frame is to say that he assaulted me. Sure, right. Yeah, sure. I guess, you know, that. That's. That's one framework.

But, you know, one of the things we didn't know about, we found, like, some of his history after because, like, we were thrown together in summer camp and it's not like anything, but I would have had access to it. But what we found it after is that, like, he. He'd been.

He'd been used by males in the past and had been, like, physically and sexually abused and like, men had. Had impressed their power upon him quite a bit. And we knew. We knew that, like, there was things going on with him.

And, you know, I had a conversation with him and I just. I told him, and I don't.

I wouldn't normally take responsibility for someone else's actions, but I apologized to him and I told him something I shouldn't have done. And that's a human connection thing that we talked about earlier. And I said to him, I said, you probably felt really unsafe at that point in time.

Rather than react to his behavior, I was trying to respond to his emotional need. And we went on to have a great relationship.

I actually worked with him for about three years after and with his siblings as well, and did family visits and all kinds of other stuff. And, you know, we. We went to. We went to Montreal and did the half marathon there, and we did.

We did the Cape de Cabot together that same year, and we did the Telly 10 as well, and a couple 5Ks and 8Ks.

Right.

But you know what I mean, I'm saying, like, I. About it in terms of what was he doing and how does this make sense? Yeah, rather. Oh, that didn't make any sense. Him needing the balls.

How does it make sense?

And by thinking about it and talking about it and kind of getting more information as time went on, it was kind of like, you know, what, what he did totally made sense.

Of course. Yeah.

I had to respond to that communication in a way that, that was going to be helpful and that's probably like.

A near automatic, you know, it's a trauma response. Yeah, I mean, do whatever he can to get out of that situation.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. Knee to the balls, spit, you name it. Yeah, he would. And he had to learn that.

He had learned how to keep himself safe and, and you know, he had to learn a lot of things along the way and he had a tough road.

And you know, one of the things that, that helped me, that helped with me was kind of like, ah, like, you know, that proximity and all that kind of stuff and being a guy and being bigger and all those types of things you got, I got to take some learning from this. So if I can't expect him to learn from it, if I don't expect to learn from myself. So there needs to be on a bit of back and forth too. Right.

So, yeah, I hope that makes sense to your question.

Oh, yeah, no, that makes great sense. Thanks for sharing that story. I mean, I think that's crucial, you know what I mean?

And obviously we're talking about youth, care, work, but I mean, everything that, pretty much everything that I can think of that you said so far that we've talked about is transferable to just general human to human interaction, you know what I mean? The importance of emotional intelligence, the importance of empathy and the importance of personal connection.

The importance of, you know, shared learning and shared experiences. You know what I mean?

You know, I don't come in like, even right now, you know, we don't come into this conversation, you know, as like one person's inferior to the other or any foolishness like that. You know what I mean?

We're two people looking to have a conversation about a topic that we both find, you know, interesting, see where the conversation goes, learn what we can, hopefully inspire some people in the process. You know what I mean?

Yeah, I do. Yeah. Yeah. There's no, there's no pissing contest here. And like the hierarchy stuff, it's, it's just, it's just, it gets in the way.

It just gets in the way of, of us guys sometimes. And I don't know, I just, I find that it can be more meaningful conversation when, when it's not an expert to an inferior, like you said.

And it's the human, the human value and quality of sharing. Right?

Yeah. I mean, one, that's one of the other things that I can't remember now where Exactly.

I wrote about this when I was like, you know, the podcast started early in spring, and I was putting together the website around the same time. And I'm thinking back to the copy the text on the web pages, and I was writing about how mentoring is just so crucial in male relationships.

The older men mentoring younger. And. And having that. I said, I suppose that community mindset, you know what I mean, where you always have those role models. And I kind of.

I guess that's kind of leading me into something else that I wanted to ask you about because you've bounced around in. In that world so much now and had so many different opportunities for mentoring. What do you think it is that. And not just in.

In the youth context, but for. For men, what is it that breaks the cycle of, you know, sons growing up to become their fathers and, and taking on the same challenges?

Because obviously we see that in a youth care context. I don't know how many times I worked, say, on a given night, which was family night, and the mom, the dad, the uncle, whoever would come over.

And if you've been at that same house with those same kids a couple times, well, then you eventually see the family member that they're most like. And I don't know, man, it was just clockwork. I could always see you picked up the exact same habits from them.

And I don't mean to pick on, you know, youth and care. I did the same thing with my father. I have my father stubbornness, 100% something I've had to work on over the years. You know what I mean?

What do you think it is that, you know, I think we both know how we get into that cycle. How do we break that?

Yeah, that's poof. That's a big question.

We need a solution now. Like, I mean, your. Your next sentence is.

Yeah, no, I think.

I think that one of the things that I think about is that, you know, I know that, like a lot of the men that I know a lot of times their dads are their main imprint when it comes to what it is to be a man or what it is to be male and things like that. I think a lot of it is exposure. I'm just going to say simply exposure to other. And what that is, is that, you know, you can. You can have.

You can have a male in your. In your family who's. Who's, you know, big on dominance communication and who's. Who's. Who uses violence and things like that.

I guess really it's about having young men collecting more Experiences with other men who think other ways.

Right.

And don't do it that way. I think that one of the.

One of the challenges for me, you know, and this is something that I've always kind of thought about and worked on, is, you know, just because you do something some way doesn't mean it doesn't have to be that way all the time. It doesn't have to be that way all the time. There are different ways of doing things.

Well, likewise, you know, I think that, you know, young, young men need to see other young men and older men who. Some of them, you know, they go out and they got to do some sports and physical activity and get.

And that, that, that's helpful for them, but other ones, they might need to do meditation and talk or read and walk, you know, different types of activities.

And I know it's kind of activity based what I'm talking about now, but, you know, we often do activities together, and that's oftentimes kind of how males do. They're this.

Yeah.

Way we do things. Right. So, yeah, I think so. I think it's for.

It's really like increasing a diversity of experiences of watching other males be in relationships and in communication and things like that. I spoke about mentorship earlier. Like, I mean, you know, I. My mentor, he's 72, 73 now, and he's probably my best friend. I met him in the uk.

I get to see him once or twice a year.

And, you know, he kind of really showed me, you know, about how to pace yourself in life and how to practice patience in a way that's really, really meaningful and in a way that, you know, that, you know, he was able to talk through things and see things and be able to chat about things. And it really kind of changed my mindset on how to do care and how to relate with people.

And, you know, he certainly can emotionalize, but he's also diverse enough that he can feel and he can think and he can do so. I mean, you know, it was. It was really important for me to see that, and it really helped me as a person, but it also helped me as a. As a.

As a person who works in the field too.

Yeah, that's very well said, man. I think that's definitely one of the solutions that we need.

We need that mindset of mentoring, that mindset of community where we are here for one another. You know what I mean? That's like that throw three musketeers type vibe, right?

Well, I mean, like, in all seriousness, you know, one wasn't one for all and all for one. Right.

I think. I think too, you know, that's. That's the bigger piece there. And, you know, I'm. I do consider myself, you know, a big picture thinker. Is that.

Yeah, it's just around the culture of it, too, you know, the culture of, like, being able to talk about your feelings and talk about what's going on and being okay to say that it's hard. Like things are hard right now or whatever.

I think we have to evolve beyond kind of, you know, just kind of swallowing it or just pushing it down and pushing it back. But, you know, that, that's gonna, that's gonna be. That's a community effort, you know, that's, that's, That's. Than just you and I. But I think that.

I think it's certainly worth it, you know?

Well, it's definitely worth it. I mean, both of us are saying the same thing. I know a bunch of other men that have said the same thing.

Just about every person that I've interviewed so far has said the same thing. It creates more satisfying experiences, more satisfying relationships. You learn more about yourself, you learn more about the other person.

You feel like someone actually knows you and you actually know them when you open up about things that are hard or sad or whatever. Right. Things that are filled with emotion.

Yeah. Yeah. And for a lot of.

A lot of guys, too, you know, it's hard to be vulnerable and it's hard to be able to talk about those things because, you know, we haven't. Either we've never really done it or we've been discouraged to do it.

So no one's taught us how. Yeah, right.

Exactly. Exactly. That's right. So that, that, that, that makes. So again, that's how it makes sense.

So, you know, when it comes to breaking that cycle, I mean, there's. There's. There's so many different branches of that tree.

But I do think, you know, having different relationships and experiences, role modeling that and doing it and being the, you know, I guess that's very cliche, but being that change is that. That's what it looks like, I think, in a lot of ways. And it's a process. Yeah.

Yeah, man. And cutting wood helps. Cutting wood, stacking wood, drying wood definitely helps me.

Definitely electric and the oil bill. So. Yeah.

Oh, dude, I get it. That resonates with me because even something came to mind when you were talking about that. Oh, yeah, it was the Steve Jobs biography.

And I remember how everybody used to kind of get on his case about how anal he was about the design inside of the device that they were making, like, to him. But have you read anything?

I haven't read that. No.

Okay. If you like biographies, it's a really good one because he was such a cultural icon and everybody kind of knows who he is.

Walter Isaacson is the one that I'm referring to.

But anyways, there was mentioned throughout the book that he was super anal about the way that something was designed, even though someone's not going to see it.

So if you Open up your MacBook or your iPhone or whatever, assuming that this kind of way of doing things is carried on after his passing, but he was very anal about how the look of it all, like the design of the internal hardware. You know what I mean? And to a degree, I used. I read that and I'm like, man, I get that because, like, you're expressing yourself.

You have a very specific idea of how you want something to be. And like you said, with the stacking of the wood, you have control over it. There is a creative element to it. It is just wood. Sure.

But anything that you're doing can become more than what it is when you are mindful and when you are taking that level of enjoyment out of it because you're. You're kind of creating that level of enjoyment for yourself, you're making a task fun.

You're making a task, you know, be more than what it might be to most.

Definitely. Definitely. And I think that there's my. There's definitely mindfulness, you know, components to that, which is really important.

Yeah.

And I think that for me, you know, I'm doing it for me, you know, like when I do a stack or anything like that. And, you know, I've seen, you know, different, like, nor, like Nordic and Scandinavian designs where they.

They use different shapes and different colors and they do all kinds of stuff. And it's really very. It's like, I just want to come.

Over and see the wood stack now. I mean, like, oh, I'm so amateur.

Compared to some of this stuff. But. But, you know, it's. It's one of those things where, yes, there's a control component.

And the other part is too, is that, like, how I have my space and my space around me is important to me.

Yeah, me too. Yeah.

It's. It, like, you know, I. I don't have to be always clean, but I do like a bit of tidy and. And I even like, you know, to, you know, I like to be able to.

To, you know, cut and stack wood to a certain way. And it's kind of like people, People might. People, some, some people see it, some people don't.

And when they see it, it's kind of like, oh, that's interesting. You did it that way. And, you know, for me, it's not about the recognition or anything like that. It's like, I, I, I, I really don't do it for them.

I do it for me. And I like how it comes out, and I like looking at it, and it's pleasurable to look at, and I enjoy it.

It's no different than, like, say, a piece of art on your wall or like a car or anything like that. It's that kind of thing.

So, you know, it's just about kind of setting the environment for yourself and doing that piece, but doing so in a way that there's a physical component, a physiological component, but there's an artistic component to it as well. And I, yeah, I, I, I like it. I'm into it.

Yeah, man, I, I think we would be better off as men if we all had some type of habit like that that we took a deep sense of satisfaction out of, and we were, what, willing or even, you know, excited to talk about it and, and share, like, what it is that we get out of that.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

Because that's like the simplest things in life, right, that you can get so much satisfaction and joy out of.

Yeah.

Yeah. Well, listen, Sean, I appreciate your time, and I've taken enough of it.

You let me know if you ever want to do this again or have a change topic or change a conversation, I'll be happy to have a conversation with you. Really appreciate, like, what you like what it is you're doing. And, yeah, I didn't know what to expect exactly, but, yeah, I like it.

You like it? Good. Five stars. Five stars on Yelp. Awesome. All right, man. Thanks for your time. I'll let you go.

You take care, Matt.

All right. See you, brother. Bye.

Bye.

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