Shownotes
When Lauren Hayes became a mother in her mid-30s, her fierce independence and lifelong people-pleasing suddenly collided. Parenthood cracked open old patterns she didn’t know were running the show, like the “funny” family story about her as a child that led to the belief that she had to earn love to be worthy of it. Through therapy, self-inquiry, and later, an unexpected exploration of ethical non-monogamy with her husband, Lauren began to uncover what authentic love and connection actually feel like. In this candid, funny, and deeply human conversation, she shares how healing her “little-t” trauma helped her trust her own voice, redefine intimacy, and finally stop hustling for approval.
Guest Bio
Lauren Hayes is speaker, author and relationship coach specializing in supporting ethically non-monogamous (ENM) couples, including swingers and the ENM-curious. She helps couples navigate and engage the swinging and non-monogamous community in the healthiest of ways. She holds the perspective that non-monogamous relationships share the same foundations of any healthy relationship, however, they need to operate at a higher level of health to accommodate the additional complexities. Her approach aims to help couples build their ideal relationship, regardless of whether or how many others it includes. She also brings personal experience to her coaching having been married for 20+ years and ENM (swingers) for the last 6+ years.
Turning 40 and Rewriting the Rules of Love
Lauren Hayes shares a story of courage, curiosity, and radical honesty. From an early childhood experience that left her believing she had to earn love, Lauren built a life of high achievement and independence. But when motherhood stripped away her identity and marriage revealed deep emotional patterns, she began the hard work of healing. That healing eventually led her, and her husband, to explore non-monogamy, a journey that brought her closer to self-acceptance, intimacy, and personal freedom than she’d ever known. Now a relationship coach and author, Lauren shares how learning to trust her own voice and desires transformed not just her marriage but her sense of self.
In this episode, you’ll hear:
- How a “funny” childhood story revealed the root of a lifelong belief that she had to earn love
- The surprising ways people-pleasing shows up even in adulthood and marriage
- What happens when independence becomes a trauma response instead of a strength
- How becoming a mother cracked open her identity and forced her to redefine “being enough”
- What ethical non-monogamy is, and what it isn’t
- How exploring non-traditional relationships can become a path to deep personal growth
- The empowerment that comes from embracing your sexuality and using your voice
Lauren’s midlife transformation story is an invitation to examine the stories we tell ourselves about love, worth, and belonging. What began as a journey to fix what wasn’t working turned into an awakening to her own inner truth. Through therapy, personal growth, and open-hearted exploration, she discovered that love rooted in authenticity and self-knowledge is more fulfilling than love earned through approval or performance. Her story is proof that midlife isn’t a crisis: it’s a chance to rewrite the script and live in alignment with who you truly are.
If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate, follow, and share The Big Four Oh Podcast; it helps more people find these conversations about transformation, truth, and growth.
Guest Resources
Get Lauren’s book, “For Better or Even Better: 7 Lessons on Love & Life from a Non-Monogamist
Connect with Lauren on Facebook
Connect with Lauren on Instagram
Do you have the Midlife Ick?
Download Stephanie’s guide to the Ick to diagnose whether you or someone you love is suffering from this insidious midlife malaise. www.thebigfouroh.com/ick
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Sponsor
The Big Four Oh Podcast is produced and presented by Savoir Faire Marketing/Communications
Transcripts
Stephanie: Hi Lauren. Welcome to the show.
Lauren: Hi. Thanks for having me.
Stephanie: It is my pleasure. I've been looking forward to this conversation because for somebody who's had 120 something of these conversations about midlife transition, a lot of times we explore nuances of things we've talked about before. But this is my first time, the topic that we're gonna get to in our conversation.
So I always love exploring a new topic. I think we're gonna touch on some third rails, so that's gonna be exciting. And,I'm really looking forward to having this conversation with you.
So,
Lauren: Thanks.
Stephanie: Well, let's jump in at the beginning. Why don't we start by telling me a little bit about the forces that shaped you into who you were when our story begins at midlife, which for you, I think begins at like age three, right?
Yeah.
Lauren: Yeah, so when I was, I don't know, I'll say it how our, my family says it when I was three or four, anyway, very little. the dynamics in my family were that I had siblings. One was seven years older, one was nine years older than me. So I came along a little later, but was not an accident as I've been told.
And so there was a particular time that my siblings were in charge of me. And I don't remember, of course, really the specifics, but the parts that I remember is that I was upset about something. I threatened to run away and my siblings went and got a little suitcase for me, helped me pack my bag, and sent me out the door. And the part that I remember, we had this I don't know, concrete block, sort of a across the street from our house. And I've learned now that my siblings were watching me do all this, but I didn't know at the time, crossover, sit down, and I had then packed a map. I don't know if I packed the map or they packed the map. And I got the map out and I, tried to figure out where I was going.
I did know that my grandmother, sorry, I get a little emotional when I talk about this.
Stephanie: Of course.
Lauren: I did know my grandmother lived nearby, but I was three, so that seemed really far away.
Stephanie: Yeah.
Lauren: So I just remember packing everything up, going back into the house, very defeated. I'm not really wanted here, but I have nowhere else to go.
Going up to my room, taking out my coloring book, which was also in the suitcase, and just thinking to myself, okay, I don't really need these people.
And so that I bring up this force right away because that is a phrase that kind of got lodged in. And I noticed much later that, oh, I use that phrase quite often.
Stephanie: Yeah.
Well, and also you said it became this funny story that your family told through the years, just over and over again, and it was just the haha, Lauren ran away.
Lauren: So cute. And the funny thing about that was, and I think there's two reasons for it. For years, I thought my dad was home also when this happened because he was the one retelling the story so often. And he has a funny way of saying hilarious. He was, it was hilarious.
And so, I always thought he was there. And then many years later, which we will get to, when I was talking about this with my sister, she said, no, I don't think dad was there. And that was really interesting to me because I had inserted that into the memory.
Stephanie: But also I've read that when you are that young, whether your parents are there or not, it's the same for you. And that is that they are not there.
Right.
Lauren: So I remembered him being there, but that he was part of this, prank, I'll call it. but in fact he was not there, which I learned later.
Stephanie: Yeah.But it just became, the funny story and it, did it become something sort of emblematic of Lauren in your life?
Lauren: Yeah. So of course when you put all the pieces together later,I was always a people pleaser, 'cause I don't think I wanted you to ever get kicked out again.
Stephanie: Yeah.
Lauren: There was a mistrust or distrust, I'm not sure which is the correct word, whether people really loved me. I knew people acted like they loved me, but that inserted a little bit of doubt for me whether that was true.
And so there was like this idea that maybe people are trying to trick me for some reason. And, and that definitely showed up throughout life in my relationships. I mean, I would say relationships is what got me to really even remembering that event. But,there's these little one-liners and little thoughts. Are they tricking me? Do they really love me? I don't need, I don't need anyone. Those are the things that you almost don't hear yourself saying after a while. Yeah.
Stephanie: They just become the wallpaper.
Lauren: Yeah.
Stephanie: Yeah. Okay, so that was three or four. That was real young. Take me through briefly five to 30.
Lauren: Okay.It's interesting because childhood generally fine, like I had loving parents, no big T traumas that I have ever acknowledged or that I remember. I just say I don't have any,
Teenage years now, though. I think the significant thing in my teenage years was my first boyfriend. So, I was 16 and I, the way I described that relationship was we had a year of bliss, of teenage love bliss, and then it just got really dysfunctional, really bad, to the extent of an episode of physical abuse.
And I was so devoted to him. When I look back at it now, of course I see the people pleasing. I see the desperation of, this very, this love that feel very, felt very validating for me.And also I was a very skinny kid, late bloomer, that whole thing. So having this boyfriend was very validating to me, like, oh, now I'm an attractive person.
And so we started this sort of, after our year of bliss, we were known, we were the couple that was known in high school to either be making out in the halls or breaking up in the halls. Like we were just always,
Stephanie: Okay.
Lauren: Were either, we were breaking up and getting back together, very frequently. So, that relationship I think was. Quite foundational for me as well, and I just didn't have any maturity at the time.
Stephanie: Yeah. Who does? At 16?
Lauren: Yeah, exactly. To recognize truly what I was going through. So, went to college. The other thing I will say is that I had a loving household and a, very unemotionally available father.I think that also fed into my people pleasing because okay, mom's it. I gotta get mom happy all the time because she's the one.
Stephanie: She's the one you'll get anything back from.
Lauren: Yes. And so, and this, emotionally unavailable father, the other thing that kinda came with that is truly he saw me as this very dramatic, wild emotion kind of kid. And it's funny because, so my first career was in accounting. And I was telling someone later when I went back to business school, and we'll get to that in a second, that I was seen as the wild spirit in my family. The real emotional one, the, carefree, whatever. And he looked at me so puzzled and he was like, you are an accountant.
Stephanie: There's not anything really much more steady than that.
Lauren: I And I was like, that is an excellent point. Yes.
Stephanie: Well, and I love that because it just sort of references like how locked down the rest of your family must be if you are the wild one and you're the accountant.
Lauren: Yes. Well, and I remember actually that, I guess now that I think about it, I remember this conversation. So I went off to college. My dad was always very concerned about me because he thought I was so emotionally sort of unstable, just because I had emotions, I think.
And, and so he was very concerned about me going away and, going to college and being on my own. And I remember this one particular conversation. They had come up to visit me at college, and I somehow had, managed myself into this accounting degree. And I told them that was my plan. I've become an accounting major, I'm gonna work for one of the, at the time it was big six, one of the big six accounting firms. And, I saw the relief on my parents' face.
Stephanie: Mm-hmm
Lauren: Oh, she's gonna be okay.
Stephanie: Yeah.
And so, In your head I'm sure was a ding, ding, ding. This is the right direction.
Lauren: Yeah, absolutely. And it wasn't that, it was not a good direction actually in the end, but I just remember that point. And, I think it was like, okay, the wild one has come home.
Stephanie: Has finally settled
Lauren: Yeah. Although by the way, I went to college. Like I was on a very regular path. I'll say that. Like I wasn't this free spirit traveling Africa at a
Stephanie: Yeah. And PS what? 15, 16-year-old girl isn't an emotional wreck anyway, come on. That's just comes with the territory and we have no control over it.
Lauren: Right. Right. Yeah. You know, first career accounting, wasn't really a fit for me. So I went to business school. Now the thing that did work for me, accounting, talking about traveling Africa, was that I got myself into an international traveling job.
So when I was like 23, I don't know, 24, I went out of the country for the first time with a boyfriend and I was terrified. We went to Greece. I don't speak the language, I don't know how this is gonna work, like all this stuff. And I had a best friend who was really into traveling, but I had not traveled much at all. I think I had to get a passport for that trip. And then we went, and I'm not joking, I got off the plane, I like smelled this dirty Athens air and I was like, oh, there's a whole world. Yeah, there's a whole world I need to see. And you know, we muddled through the language problems and that was my first. And I literally went home, quit my job, got another international traveling job. And then I traveled the world for two years doing my accounting job.
So again, this kind of fit into the free spirit thing that my family saw, but I was doing it in like the most practical way possible. Then I went to business school. So I asked my parents to co-sign on a very large loan. I came from a very lower middle class family. So they were really like, yeah, we, 'cause I went to London Business School,
Stephanie: Mm-hmm.
Lauren: 'Cause I was like, I'm doing this big or I'm not going at all. Um, and so they were like, okay, we really have to talk about whether we're co-signing on this loan. And I was like, don't you worry going to a school like this, I'm gonna have the best job after and whatever. And again, I was, already earning a good amount of money for my age. So they did sign it. I went to business school. I used that to turn my career to marketing, 'cause that's what I had always actually originally wanted to do. I met my, who's going to become husband at business school, but we didn't date there.
Uh
Stephanie: Right?
Lauren: No. Okay. So I said, I just skipped over to two really important things.
Stephanie: Okay. Sorry
Lauren: One thing that was, very, very, foundational for me were relationships.
Yeah, so after the high school boyfriend, which continued through college, then I had a little dating spree. But I was a very like, monogamous dater in the sense that I would have, I think my shortest relationship was like six months.I always say people adored me. I was really good at relationships and so people wanted to stay in one with me.
Stephanie: Yeah, yeah. I called it, serial monogamy.
Lauren: Absolutely. I mean, that's it. That is what it is. Yeah.
And I think personally I do all my biggest growing, well, I think we all do as humans, but me in particular, that has been my path to learn in relationship. And so I haven't been single very much. So I went from the high school, very serious boyfriend, couple less serious, and then another very serious relationship.
That's the boyfriend I went to Greece with. He was from Iran. This is where I began my, at least partially foreign male obsession, which ties into my, like travels later on. So we dated a very long time, for four and a half years. I moved to Houston. That was when I was starting my accounting career.
We did long distance for a while that broke off. Then my next serious relationship was a French man. You're right.And we dated in the US for a while and then he is who, he moved back to Paris. I moved to London for business school and we did long distance Paris, London for a couple years, which sounds very glamorous and is still just a long distance relationship.
Stephanie: Doesn't matter where you get off the train, it's still long distance.
Lauren: Right, right. So then, this was a real big formation moment for me.I graduated after business school into a recession, and the job offer that I had got rescinded. But I was like, well, I really wanna stay in Europe. So I stuck around for a year doing some contract work and just looking for a job. It just wasn't coming together.
And my parents, the ones that I had said, don't worry, I'm gonna get a great job after this, and my loan was gonna be coming start to be due after a year, they were sweating. And, so I said, okay, I have to go do something about this. So I, because I was looking for a visa, I needed to be sponsored to be working in France. And so I was like, that combination of being in a recession and needing a visa is really not working. So I went to California, to San Francisco, my dream city. That's if I couldn't live in Europe, that was where I wanted to live. So when I left Paris, that boyfriend was like, I have too many things going on here right now. I'm not gonna come with you. And I was like, okay, good. I was really, I was very into Buddhism at the time. I'm a very spiritual person. Those were my best. I call that my Buddhist era. And, I was like, great. No, no attachment.
Stephanie: Yep. Yep.
Lauren: We're gonna have the best, I'm gonna create my best week in Paris before I leave Paris. And it's all good. And I think this is such a, an interesting story. So, I got in the taxi that morning to take me away. I'd been feverishly packing and shipping stuff back to the US all week. And he's standing in the rear view mirror of the taxi or the side mirror, and I can see him getting smaller and smaller, as we pull away, it's just like the movies.
And suddenly I was like, oh boy. And I asked the taxi driver, for a sack in French. And my French was never great, but I was like, un sac sil vous plait?. So he hands me this plastic bag, like, what do you want this for? And I threw up.
Oh, And I continued to do so for half the ride. And,
Stephanie: So much for non-attachment.
Lauren: So much for non-attachment, so much for non-attachment.
And this is actually one of my, I don't wanna say a criticism of Buddhism, but in my own spiritual path, one thing I recognized at one point was like this idea of just letting emotions go, not feeling them first, is a recipe for some disaster.
Stephanie: Yeah,
Lauren: Like processing. There was no, I wanted to be this person who just wasn't bothered by emotions. These emotions were unimportant. And they don't have any garbage cans at the, Paris Airport. So I remember leaving the bag by this outside like column and going, I'm sorry, whoever finds this.
Stephanie: Sorry for littering.
Lauren: Yeah, that was like my emotions in a bag. So that was messy. Okay. I don't know. Is this was put yes. Sorry if anybody's eating while they're listening to this. Okay.
So anyway, that, those were those two relationships. Then I immediately, this is what I'm saying, the Universe is like always sends me relationships. And so I was not looking for one. I literally, my first week of job, like land, this, end up in this relationship. And I told the guy my, my story, he goes, oh God, I'm transition man. Or what do we call those people?
Stephanie: Rebound.
Lauren: Rebound? Yeah, I'm
Stephanie: The rebound guy.
Lauren: I'm rebound guy. And I was like, no, I'm in a really good place with this. I don't think so. we're good.
And then, three months later, the French boyfriend calls up and says, I made a big mistake. I, I need to, we need to get together. Let's get married now. 'cause he had never wanted to get married. We should get married. I'll move to the US, whatever. And I was like, yeah, no, I'm not feeling it anymore. that really broke something, and I'm already dating somebody else.
Stephanie: Yeah.
Lauren: He's like, what? So I knew this was gonna happen.
I even warned the guy I was dating because of my French guy was not only French, but very romantic. And I said, he's gonna show up here. So he did. Well, I was getting ready for a date, one night, and he called and he said, I'm at the airport. I'm coming to your apartment. So I called my date and I was like, I'm unavailable now.
Stephanie: Yeah, today's the day. It happened.
Lauren: And now the important part of this story is that, for two weeks, to him I was like, no, no, no, no. You broke it. It's broken.
The reality was I cried for two weeks because, and I can say this more, clearly now, the idea of passing on somebody who was willing to love me was a very difficult thing.
It wasn't really, in hindsight about him, it was about that oh, now here's someone who's saying he's gonna love me forever. And I'm gonna say no to this? So I literally cried for two weeks long.I would cry on the cable car on the way to work. I would cry on the cable car on the way home. It was just one of those little periods.
Stephanie: At that point in time, were you able to identify that it wasn't him specifically, but that you were turning away love?
Lauren: I, I didn't,
Stephanie: Okay.
Lauren: but what was
Stephanie: transformational,
You were just upset.
Lauren: Yeah.
And oh, and this was actually really important. So the guy who became my husband, we had been best friends and stayed best friends for all these years through all this. I called him at this time for advice. I was like, hey, I'm dating this new guy, but my French guy called, 'cause he knew all the players. What do you think I should do? And he made a joke and he was like, I don't know, can you date both?
Yeah.And then when he showed up at my doorstep, I got it, because I heard the voice inside of me that said, you don't want that. You don't want this relationship.
Stephanie: How old were you?
Lauren: 29.
Stephanie: Okay.
Lauren: 30, maybe 30. 30, I think I was 30. And I really think that was the first time I heard that voice.
Stephanie: That's exactly what I was going for.
Lauren: Yeah, because what I had said to my friend on the phone who jokes that I should date both. I said, if I go with, I'll just make up names. If I go with Bob, I'm, I'm gonna hurt. Dave, and if I go with Dave, I'm gonna hurt Bob.
Stephanie: Yep.
Lauren: This is literally my concern. I think this is why I was crying for two weeks because I was put into a situation where I had to hurt somebody else no matter what I chose. And in that, I got really lost about what I wanted.
Stephanie: That wasn't even part of your
Lauren: It wasn't part of my thought process. I mean, it was like that lure of someone loving me and, and the romance of it. I was like, this is gonna make a great story for our grandchildren if we get together.
Stephanie: Yeah. Yeah.
Lauren: So anyway, I sent him home on the plane. We spent the night talking and, I sent him home the next day. All of our friends in France were just absolutely shocked that that had not, went the other way. And then as would have it, within a couple months of that, the rebound guy relationship dissolved.
Stephanie: And he was like, yeah, I really was rebound guy. And I was like, yeah, I guess so. And, but he played such an important role in that lesson because it had,he was the one of the two that I didn't wanna hurt, but I wasn't thinking about what I really wanted.
yeah,
Lauren: And so that was a very pivotal time for me. My next relationship was who I married, which is not surprising because I finally got into this space of what do I want? And that was who showed up for me. So, and because we had been friends for so long it, then all of a sudden we dated and thingsprogressed quickly from there.
All through my twenties, I had said I was a no kids person. Maybe I wasn't even getting married. Again, this fierce independence. That trauma response independence was always there. I'm never gonna need anyone and no one's gonna need me.
Stephanie: Yep. Yeah.
Lauren: So, so then we got married. So then we did decide to have children. I actually took a personal development course at the time, so I was coming out of the Buddhist era, although I still identify with Buddhism, but I was coming a little bit out of the deepest part of that era. And my husband suggested that I do this, personal development course called the Landmark Forum.So I did do that, which, it's a longer story, but, in one of those courses I recognized that I had this fear of being ordinary.
Stephanie: Wow.
Lauren: When they said that out loud, 'cause I guess it's like an ordinary fear to be fearful of being ordinary, I immediately was like, oh yeah, I have that. I'm traveling the world. I am, not committing to anyone. I'm all this stuff. And it made so much sense to me and I was like, Ugh, that's why I don't wanna have kids too. I was like, I don't wanna get married and move to the suburbs and do all that.
And so I recognized that was all kinda wrapped up in that fear. I think that's the interesting thing about fears is like that fear drove me to do all these very fun and exciting things in life. And embrace life in a way that I never knew was possible. And also was limiting me.
Stephanie: Tell me this, if you could, and knowing what you know today, if you cast yourself backwards, what was it about being ordinary that was,repulsive to you or not attractive to you? What was it about being ordinary that you didn't like or want?
Lauren: A great question and I hate this answer, but I'm just gonna say it for now. I don't know. I feel like that was a wiring, but, okay. As long as we're talking about it in this context, I suppose, yes. I'm learning something on your show right now. I suppose that was my hook to get people to love me.
Stephanie: Was that you weren't ordinary.
Lauren: Yes, I was very interesting. I have traveled the world. I have all these interesting stories and that makes me a little different from everyone else. So maybe that's a little bit my hook.
Stephanie: Let me ask you this.
Lauren: Were your parents and your siblings ordinary.
Yes. Yes.
Stephanie: and
Lauren: In the
Stephanie: Did you not be like them?
Lauren: Correct. And I actually have some guilt saying that, especially about my sister because I'm really close with her. But she knows this. Because she's 10 years older than me, I saw her get married, have children, move to the suburbs, and be a little miserable as we all can be when we have small children.
Stephanie: Yes.
Lauren: And I was like, that is not what I'm gonna do. So at the point that I was like, okay, I'm gonna have children. Talked about it with the my who became husband, 'cause we were like, okay, well then we should get married if we're gonna have children. So we did all these things. We eloped to Thailand to get married. We did have a party in Puerto Vallarta that all of our friends were invited to. So like we did nothing in an ordinary way.
This ismy point. When I look back on it, I don't look at those things as I was trying to prove something. that's truly who I am.And I love doing things a little differently.
And we also made a pact that we were gonna raise children differently too. I was like, I don't, I'm not moving to the suburbs. And he was like, I hear you. We don't have to move to the suburbs. and we traveled, constantly. We traveled constantly before kids. We traveled almost constantly after kids. That is something I do look on a little bit funny now because it was hard traveling with babies and toddler. We ended up having two children. and so we had a boy and a girl and
Stephanie: You were in your mid-thirties when you had them? 35, 36?
Lauren: Correct, Yes, Thirty four and thirty six. And that changed everything.
Now my fierce independence of people not needing me, I was like, oh my goodness, what have I done.
Stephanie: The only thing these two people need is you.
Lauren: Is me. Yeah.
Stephanie: And they need all of you.
Lauren: Yeah, I have this funny scene. I lived in San Francisco when we had our first child, and so I, I got to be a part of this, I don't know how I did, this mom's group. So we were all professionals in living in the city. All had babies in our mid thirties, very similar women, sitting in this like church lobby or sitting wherever we met, rocking ourselves and our babies going. They said it was gonna be 50/50. It's not 50/50, because, these babies need their mamas.
That scene really sticks in my mind because we were all like, what is it? What's happening right now? That transition that I think most of us go through when we have a child and we bring it home and we're like, what did we just do? And then add in the exhaustion and the, yeah.
And for me in particular, who is like, we're not moving the suburbs, we're doing this differently. You're 50 50. We're doing all this. Yeah. That was shocking for me. So then we actually moved to Austin, Texas shortly after that. And then we had our second child. And it was when we had our second child, and very, not coincidentally, and interestingly, when my son was three,
Stephanie: Yeah.
Lauren: I was struggling with parenthood. I struggled with the identity of parenthood and losing my prior identity. This was like a slow process over, the few years of having these children. My husband was not having these same struggles of identity and crisis, so we were not aligned in a lot of ways, and I felt alone.
And those thoughts, which I will share because I want every woman to hear this, those thoughts when you have the most beautiful babies in the world that you love dearly, and you're like, maybe this was a mistake.
Stephanie: Yeah.
Lauren: And then I would feel so much guilt for feeling that because, even across the street, my neighbors, I knew they were having trouble with fertility issues. And I was like, how can I even have these thoughts when I was given these two gifts? And I say that out loud because I think a lot of women feel guilt for some of these thoughts that we have.
So anyway, I started seeing a therapist and very quickly on, I shared that story that I just shared with you guys at the beginning. And I remember so well, because these moments are just burned in your brain. She was so pretty. She had this red lipstick on this big smile. And I started to tell her this funny story about my childhood, about when I was three. And my brother and sister packed my bag with me, and ha ha ha.
And I saw this big red smile on hers, get really strained and kind of start falling and not quite be a smile anymore. And I got to the end of the story and she goes, I'm gonna ask you this. She said, do you think that's a funny story? I'm gonna get emotionally good right now.
Stephanie: Take a breath.
Lauren: And I just looked at her kind of puzzled, like, of yeah, I guess. Like I had never thought about it before. And then she said, well, let me ask you this. If Max were to threaten to run away right now, like, and as soon as she said that, I was like, that was preposterous idea that he would even say that. And then, all the air rushed out of me and I just cried. Like I had, felt like I had maybe never cried before.
Stephanie: Yeah.
Lauren: And, and so that was sort of my moment of realization that like this, and I struggled for a long time to even say that it was a trauma because I, like I said, I had this loving household. This wasn't what trauma in my mind was. Trauma in my mind was abuse and neglect and all those things. And so I, it took me a few years to really like, define it as little T Trauma, but it definitely was that.
Once I learned that, because I, I, I had what I thought, I laugh about that a little bit now, some anger issues. And, I was having a lot of meltdowns with my baby and toddler and I would have to like, leave them and go in my room and cry or kick something, or punch a pillow or whatever the things were. Like, I was having a lot of those little episodes and I felt guilty about it every time, 'cause I was like, what's happening to me? This is not the mom I wanna be. And I remember that conversation with my husband too. He's like, what standard are you trying to meet here? And I was like. Perfection. I don't know. Like I want to be perfect
Stephanie: Best mom.
Lauren: for these two little beings because they do need me and now I wanna be the best available. And so, that's why I say having them really changed everything, 'cause it did.
And that's where my personal growth path, which I had always been on, and the spirituality that it became very driven by, I wanna be the best for them.
And so I was parts of all kind of parenting groups and I saw her for years, personally andit was a great time. And my husband really wasn't on that journey with me again. Okay. Not. Not surprising. I married someone a little bit emotionally unavailable.
Stephanie: Okay. Patterns repeat.
Lauren: yes, but who could not have looked more different than my father? You know what I mean? So that was always, that's always a funny realization. And so I was doing this on my own, with my friends, and whatever.
And then we were having some trouble in our marriage later on and I started seeing a therapist on my own. I live in Salt Lake City right now, and we had moved here. So I had started seeing a therapist on my own again.We were seeing one together. And in both of those, with both therapists, this little t trauma kept coming up. And I finally was like, okay, that really did impact me, and it's really showing up in my relationships because I can't really believe that anyone loves me.
Stephanie: So that was a big moment. And I actually went off to a, what one of my friends called, therapy Camp for a week.
Sounds delightful.
Lauren: Yeah, I mean I love therapy. I mean, in many ways 'cause I just love personal growth and development and learning about ourselves and all those things. Here's the question I asked at the end of that week, 'cause I addressed that little t trauma and did a lot of processing. And I said, okay, so now that I've been here and I've done this processing and all the things, when I go back to my home and they start talking about this as being a funny thing in my family, is that gonna bother me or is it gonna not be a trigger anymore because I just processed it all? And they said. Yes, both.
It's going to depend on the day and the time and who says it and how they say it and
Stephanie: how tired you are, and whether you're hungry
Lauren: Exactly. Like today I got emotional talking about it. Lots of times I can talk about it and I don't get emotional.
That was very pivotal for me. It sort of changed, and this was in my forties, and this changed my understanding that, and I was never, like, it's all my husband's fault kind of thing in therapy because I was more self-aware than that.
But it helped me see the depth to what was, the cause of a lot of my, my inability to feel loved. Or really believe that someone loved me. Because I had all these really great relationships. And when I looked back on them, I was like, they were really great relationships.I knew they loved me, but I wasn't sure they loved me.
Stephanie: It's like you could interpret it, logically, mentally, but you couldn't interpret it like in your being, in your heart. You couldn't absorb it. You could understand it, but you couldn't absorb it.
Lauren: Yeah. That's right.
Stephanie: Yeah.
Lauren: And and so I recognized I was doing that still. And so I would say that was pivotal for me because then my personal development and growth really turned very inward. Not that it is never, not inward.
Stephanie: Right.
Lauren: But I think, how would I say that?
Stephanie: I know what you mean, right? Because a lot of times when we're doing our personal growth, when we're exploring issues, it's how does this affect how I interact with my husband or my mom or my brothers or my coworkers? Or like, how does this issue that I'm working on show up in my relationships with my friends or in the way that I interact with people.
Lauren: Yeah, and like that people pleasing aspect, like I understood the driver behind it.
Stephanie:
Lauren: If I'm not sure, I can't really absorb their love then, and that was probably my biggest takeaway from the therapy camp was, I'm earning love.
Stephanie: Mm.
Lauren: That's what I'm doing. I am always earning love.
Stephanie: Always hustling for it.
Lauren: Hustling.
Stephanie: Yeah. Oh, that's interesting.
Lauren: Yeah. I know that was my biggest takeaway when I said that at the camp. I was like, oh yes, that is what I'm doing.
Stephanie: And that must be exhausting 'cause that's a lot of work.
Lauren: It's exhausting. And especially because that what a loop. If you're never sure and you're hustling for it, you are hustling all the time, because you're never sure.
Stephanie: You're the hamster on the wheel never getting anywhere.
Lauren: Absolutely. Like the absolute definition of that.
Stephanie: Yeah. Then you get to a point where, I understand what you're saying, like you really turn inward and it's not so much about how your issues affect your interactions with other people or how you, it's really about trying to come to terms with what's inside of you to kind of settle that so that you don't even have to think about interactions with people or you don't have to think about these ruptures that you're working around or working with. You're actually repairing them at the source.
Lauren: Yeah. The other really interesting twist to the story that I haven't brought up yet is that during this time
Stephanie: Here we go.
Lauren: After we moved to Salt Lake, my husband and I decided to explore non-monogamy. So I will
Stephanie: Before we get into it, I just wanna say for a girl who cannot absorb the fact that her husband loves her, if I recall correctly, it was his idea, or at least he was the one who broached it. How does that even go? How does that first conversation even go for you?
Lauren: Yeah, well it went to I'm, am I not enough? That's where exactly it went to, which is a very typical partner reaction.
Now here's the other thing I wanna make clear, 'cause we're focusing on the realizations and what was wrong at the time. We had a great relationship. We both felt like we had a really great relationship and where the, this, the, how this conversation came apart was a little two part. I'll go through this really quickly.
When we lived in Austin, we had friends that were polyamorous. So we knew about polyamory, but we weren't interested in doing it. And then when we moved here, at one point, he just brought it up and the exact words he said was like, I feel like there's something more. So I was like, oh, you want a girlfriend? And he was like, I don't really think I want a girlfriend, but I do feel like there's something more.
Now, I have become since then a relationship coach in the ethical, non-monogamy space. So when I look back on that with now all the knowledge that I have, I see that was actually a really great way that he brought it up because he didn't know what he was looking for, it became an exploration for the two of us.
No one was agreeing to anything. All we were doing was exploring. And I will say that,I said I was very serial serially, monogamous. I was, but I always loved sex. And that one little single period I had, I always tell, so I have a lot of ex Mormon friends because of where I live.
And I was like, on tv, because none of them experienced this, on tv, those people in their twenties who are having a lot of casual sex, I was like, that was my life. That was my real life. And they're like, oh my gosh, people actually do that. so I have always been a very sexual person.
So once we did start exploring and we learned about these other options within non-monogamy, which was more around sexual exploration and swinging, I was like, well, actually that is kind of interesting to me.
Stephanie: Well, before we go too deep into it, I just wanna point out what a gift that you were able to give your husband space to say something that was so, that must have been, profoundly surprising and uncomfortable.
Lauren:
Stephanie: And then the two of you were able to give each other space to even explore it in a conversational way. Because, like I said at the beginning, I mean, this is a third rail. This is for most, heterosexual, monogamous relationships. I mean, this is the third rail. It is the other person.
So,I'm really curious to explore even that first part before you, even while you were talking about it, and exploring options. And tell me about what it was like in that relationship. Because part of what I'm trying to get at is let's demonstrate what it looks like to give your partner space to say something that you're not comfortable with, but you're just gonna hold space for that.
Lauren: Yeah. And I will say, especially looking back on it, that in a way his emotional unavailability, and I wanna say that, like I say, that it's not really like a huge criticism like we made it work. You know what I mean? Like we had a great relationship. There are lots of men who are little more emotionally unavailable.
We saw a therapist off and on. And, we really did feel like we had a great relationship. Now I was the more emotional between the two of us. So this fit the pattern. So he could bring that up. I could have an emotional reaction and he could just hold space for it.
That's how we already operated to some extent. And I think especially now that coach other people. I had no idea what we were talking about at the time. There was so much confusion. He said he didn't want a girlfriend. That was probably the first thing that made me like, have trouble breathing.
Stephanie: Yep.
Lauren: And then very quickly it just became an exploration. I went off and I was searching for sexual retreats. Now my husband and I always had a great sex life. We had always had great sexual chemistry, so these retreats were difficult to find because everything was geared towards couples that were having trouble in the bedroom. And I was like, well, that is not us. So if we show up there, they're gonna be like, I don't know, just do what this couple does.
So that wasn't fitting. And then, and he was off doing his own research and we would bring things together. And then when you search for sexual retreats, things like, swinger resorts and swinger clubs, and stuff like that will come up. So I remember taking that to him one night and going, is this what you're talking about?
And he was truly like, I don't know. That might be what I'm talking about. I don't know. And so we found this book called The Ethical Slut. And so, oh, the one thing I wanna say about that. One thing that I've really been thinking a lot about lately because I've had so many breakthroughs in my own personal growth lately, is I look back on that conversation and I'm like, was that me people pleasing?
Stephanie:
Lauren: Did I not freak out as much as one might think, because I was doing a little bit of like, oh, you're interested in something. Well, I'll see if I'm interested in that too.
And that's okay. That's not even really a bad thing. Because one thing I do tell people now who are recovering, people pleasers, I'm like, don't you worry, we still get to people please. We're just gonna consciously choose it. And when, when we do it.
Stephanie: And we're not gonna allow it to steamroll our boundaries and make us feel bad. Yes. Right. You could still make people happy. There's not, that's, there's nothing wrong with that.
Lauren: Exactly. So I look back at that moment and I wonder that, but I'm also like, I wasn't repulsed by any of it. And I think here's the big problem because I have a lot of people ask me how they approach their partner.
The big challenge is that there are so many misconceptions about non-monogamy that when you approach your partner about it, you're not really approaching them with the truth about it. You're approaching them with about the misconceptions about it, because that's what enters everyone's mind. As soon as you say non-monogamy, they probably have some notion of what that is and so their react.
Stephanie: they saw
Lauren: or myths that are out there, all the key parties or whatever, doesn't exist, by the way. and so the react. The reaction is to their misconception. It's not necessarily to the idea itself. So that's one thing I coach people through a little bit, but I didn't have all a lot of that because we had friends that were polyamorous. So I had an openness to the idea of it already that maybe most people don't have. I had been exposed to it before.
Stephanie: Exposed. I don't even know if I would suggest it was an openness to it as much as an exposure to it in a successful way.
Let me ask you this. Is polyamory, does that equal ethical non-monogamy or does polyamory equal non-monogamy?
Lauren: No. So, ethical, non, I love to explain this. Ethical non-monogamy is the broad umbrella term.
Stephanie: Okay.
Lauren: Underneath that, it gets complicated. But the easiest way to define it is there's polyamory, which is people seeking multiple emotionally committed relationships. And on sort of the other end, if we wanna call it a spectrum, would be swinging, which you are in it for sexual adventure and friendship.
Stephanie: Okay.
Lauren: Now there's lots of.
Stephanie: Iterations, I'm sure. Yeah.
Lauren: Because that's actually the beautiful thing about non-monogamy. You can create whatever you want as long as everybody knows about it and everyone is consenting. But because this is something new to all of us in our, from being raised in this culture, you truly are creating, and that's a beautiful place to be.
And you know that we could have hours long conversation about that, so I won't go on about that. But that was, eventually where my husband and I got to that we were just creating what worked for us and ended up being a really beautiful thing. When we found this book called The Ethical Slut, that really helped us hone in and we're both super nerdy people, so we're like, oh, a book. Yay.
Stephanie: Let's book group this.
Lauren: Yes, totally. That's how we did it. We read it one chapter at a time. This is interesting, this is not interesting. And then, it just kinda went down the path together, which was really good for our relationship because we were doing something new, a little scary and holding hands, doing it together, which is like by definition how Esther Perel says you keep your relationship vital.
And almost everyone I talked to either it doesn't go well or it goes very well and it improves most relationships that are doing it in a healthy way. It either makes you or breaks you. And and that's why one of the misconceptions is that people getting into it are unhappy in their current relationships. That is probably the most untrue because if you're getting into it to fix anything in your current relationship, that's when it's not gonna work for you.
Stephanie: That's when it's gonna break you because it's obviously you're missing something, there's something not there. you're right.
Lauren: Yeah. And that really wasn't us. Like we were just in this space of exploring.
Wow. So tell me a little bit about, some of this emotional stuff. I know that you worked real hard on it, but I'm not enough. He's not happy. He's just pretending I don't need this guy. Did any of that stuff get kicked up during this process? I mean, the not enough thing in a very big way, but I think the thing is that, and this is why just talking about non-monogamy can bring couples together closer, because it also forced us into conversations about how much we meant to each other.
Stephanie: Like this is just a fun exploration. Nothing's gonna come between us. You're the most important thing in my life. I would never risk our relationship in any way. If this starts to go south in any way, we're stopping it. So it was a lot of those kind of conversations. And we had been married for 14 years at the point that we were having this conversation. So, we've always been good about expressing feelings for each other. But that was very affirming at that time. Probably, some deeper conversations about how much we meant to each other than we had had in a while. One of the things that happens during this transition at midlife is that weturn down the volume on all of those voices telling us things we should be doing, and we really start to tune into and turn up the volume on our own internal voices that are telling us what we want and what's gonna be good for us. Tell me about how any of the shoulds played into this conversation.
Yeah. So I would say that was one of the first ones because it is very counterculture.And you still have relatively young children at this time.
Lauren: Yeah, we, uh, they were 10 and 12, I wanna say.
Stephanie: young, I mean.
Lauren: Yeah. Getting to the age where we could go out more and stuff like that. You know, Um,There were moments I remember going, are we crazy? Are we gonna totally f up us relationship? And because there's not a lot of guidance in this world.
Well, that's what partial, like why I became a coach. But like you feel very alone on this adventure because you can't tell other people that you're doing it. So you keep it, everyone I know that keeps it secret for a long time. Now I will say that, so when you asked your question about polyamory, because polyamory is more in the mainstream and there are many reasons for that, people have started to interchange polyamory and ethical non-monogamy as terms, but it's not correct. Like they are, you know, there are these different, modes of operation, let's call it, underneath that term, and.
Stephanie: I'm remembering when you gave me the definition, when you reminded me there are, polycules,and throuple and things like that's more polyamory than
we are in a relationship and we are going to do this. We're going to choose this together.
Lauren: Yeah. And that's more in the mainstream. I mean, Netflix had a show on recently called Couple the Throuple. So this is something we're talking about as a culture more and more and because I think we all have to admit that monogamy as we've learned it, is not going according to plan. But because that is more mainstream, that's a little bit, I think more people that are poly might be open about it. Because, and I think this is, interesting, I think it's because they can fall under the love is love narrative. That is also in our culture,
Stephanie: Mm-hmm.
Lauren: And is beautiful.
Now on the swinging end of things, we're like, yeah, we're not falling in love with people. Like we're in this for sex and pleasure and friendship, and we're really honest about that, and that is less acceptable to our culture.
Stephanie: Right, because it's, it's really quite, threatening to
Lauren: Yeah, and it's
Stephanie: monogamy.
Lauren: A against our Puritan values as well, like what you are going to feel self-expressed, in a sexual way? You're gonna embrace the sexual side of yourself? And you know, a lot of things that are very threatening and are very deep messages that we've learned since our first Disney movie.
And so that was a struggle for me sometimes, like, oh my God.
But then when you get in the community and you're meeting all these great people and your people. I think that's what's surprising to people too, because that's another misconception that this must be full of like counterculture alternative type people. And then you get out there and you find your people and you make these great connections and great friendships. But before you know that is that, you're like, what are we doing? we're not these counterculture alternative people, so how's this gonna go?
Stephanie: We're middle class parents.... of tweens.
Lauren: I'm a soccer mom.
And Yeah, exactly. And then you get out there and you're like, oh, we're all soccer moms. Okay, great. We talk about our kids while we're at the Sweeter Club. You know what I'm saying? So this is surprising to people, but what does make it difficult, because a lot of people have all these same fears, like, are we crazy?
Not only because we might be risking our own relationship, but also how are we gonna fit in with this group of people? And also finding this group of people. Like I just said, we're hiding. We're all hiding and secretive. So even when you decide you wanna explore it, you're like, how? Where do we find it? It's really an interesting world in that way.
How about as parents? How was that thought process as parents of pretty young children? Yeah. So when we first get into it, and I would say this is a common trajectory, when you first get into it, you don't tell anybody. Then you're in it for a while and you start telling your closest friends, because those relationships suffer otherwise because you're continually not being truthful with them about what you're doing for part of your life. And I would say, and close family. Now some people tell their kids, some people don't.
And I would say, again, more polyamorous might tell their children than don't, because polyamory, you have more, I wouldn't actually say this is true, but there's a perception that there's more of an identification. I was born to be polyamorous, that kind of feeling? No one says that about being a swinger. They do say that about being non-monogamous. They're like, I don't know. I was just never wired for monogamy.
But, but the, so the children thing, we, even when we did, we started to identify, you know, very much in the community. I started training as a coach. We were in, for quite a few years before I did that, but, we had decided we would not tell our children because they were entering puberty and this confusing time in life for them. And this was not a complexity that they needed to be concerned about because this wasn't gonna affect their family life.
Yep. Especially when you're on the swinger end, this is a little different in the polyamory end, but you know. This is mostly going out at night and in your part of your sex life, which you're not sharing with your children anyway. That's why I say when some people tell their children, it's more often when people have polyamorous, activities because you might be inviting other, people into your homes and stuff. Yeah.
So then I went through coach training, became a relationship coach. More and more of my time was spent doing that. And I do have like a, a regular life coach business as well that I don't actually spend much time on. And then I was, I wrote my book and my book was coming out last year. And now we have an 18 and 16-year-old at that time. And so we're like, okay.They're kind of figured out a lot of who they are. And also, this is a very big part of our lives. I never liked having to be not fully truthful with what I was doing with my time and everything. So in our case in particular, we had lots of driving reasons to tell them. And then our 16-year-old, our girl, when we did tell her, said, well, I'm kind of offended you didn't tell us before. And we're like, okay, fair, but here's why we didn't. And they also said, you know, kids of our generation, we don't care about stuff like that. And I said, I know you don't, but the parents of the kids of your generation, some of them still do. I said, we're not ashamed and it's not a secret, but do be thoughtful about who you share it with.
Stephanie: Yeah.
Lauren: So, that went smashingly for us. And that is probably one of the most individual choices out there. Some people tell their children. Some people have adult children that they tell. Some people have adult children that they're like, we would never tell our adult children that because they would judge us.
Stephanie: Yeah.
Lauren: So, I mean, it's all over the board in that, everybody knows their kids. Everybody knows their situations. And so that's how the kid thing played out for us. It was just, it became at one point natural for us to share that with them. And they were certainly old enough.
Stephanie: well if you're gonna A, write a book and B be running a coaching practice that you're advertising on the internet, then your teenage children are likely to find you on the internet and go, what's this? So it's probably best that you face that one head on and be proactive about it before, before it looks like it's something shameful that they, that you were trying to hide.
Lauren: yeah.
Stephanie: Yeah. Wow. Well, this has been a wild ride.
Lauren: Tell me a little bit about, you know, you're on the other side of this transition. This is really a part of your life now, who you are. Tell me about how it's different now than it was in your early thirties. What's the difference in you internally?
Mm-hmm. And that's what all this is about. And that's what people don't realize when they're getting into ethical non-monogamy. I'm like, you are going on the personal growth journey of your lifetime. I just wanna let you know. And to me this has been the pinnacle of it. So what I say about, being non-monogamous is that, it is complex, but it doesn't cause issues in your life most often.
It highlights the dynamics in your relationship that are not working anyway. That has been very, very true for us. And one of those dynamics is my people pleasing, for example. That's something that gets highlighted for couples all the time, including me, because now the stakes are a little higher. You're not just going to the dinner place that you didn't really wanna go to. You're actually being physically intimate with people or going to parties and the stakes are just higher.
And you start to learn to say, no, I don't want to do that. And for a lot of people pleasers and me that question, what do I want? That can be the hardest thing to start asking yourself.
And in all these new situations, what do I want? Well, it's also a new situation, so I don't know. So there is a big part of just exploring things and that's how you figure out what you want and what you don't want. And listening to that voice
Stephanie: Yeah.
Lauren: 'cause it's in there. And either, it just became quiet because you weren't listening for a long time.And now these more extreme situations might have it speaking up a little louder. But you still have to be listening. And then with that becomes this beautiful process of listening, using your own voice, which is amazing. Trusting yourself, amazing. And really living your best life, like your best life.
And with this voice piece of it is also so not only what you want in different situations, but what do you wanna create? What do you wanna create in your relationship? What do you wanna create in your life? And you know what, if you're gonna create it, you have to share it. You know how you have to share it? You have to tell people. And so this idea of voice is very empowering. And especially for women, I will say. And it does apply to men too, but I will say, especially for women who grow up in this culture of being quiet, not being sexual, having so many complex messages given to us about our own sexuality,
then becoming part of this community where I can embrace a whole part of me that I may have not been able to embrace before, the sexual side, which affects all the other parts. And so almost always women start carrying themselves a little more confidently. Using their voice. And it's just a real transformation that happens when you are experiencing all of you.
Stephanie: Wow. Oh, Lauren, such a wonderful message. I love the way you brought that all together at the end. That was really, really, profound. I love that.
I know we could keep going. There are so many avenues that we could start exploring and, like you said, have additional hour long conversations, but I promised you that we would, stick to a certain amount of time. So I wanna say thank you for being so, so generous with your story today and for sharing everything with me.
Lauren: Thank you for being such a great listener.
