Ready to discover the business model that lets you do what you love and actually enjoy your life? Host Pat Miller sits down with Jen Hillenga, acclaimed NYC dog photographer, to reveal how passion, profit, and purpose can coexist even after creative burnout.

Episode Highlights 🎤💡:

(02:28) - From running a large studio to total burnout

(11:32) - Creating a unique dog photography style

(25:54) - How free sessions fueled rapid business growth

Connect with Pat Miller ⬇

LinkedIn | Website

Connect with Jen Hillenga ⬇

LinkedIn | Instagram | Website

I'm Pat Miller and this is the Professional Photographer podcast. We are live at Imaging USA 2026 in Nashville and we are set up inside the Sony Cinema Line studio using the Monitor & Control app. This set is amazing and it's so fun to sit here and do the show, having a conversation, and people are stopping to check out and pet the equipment. Sony went all out on this. So thank you, Sony, for setting us up and making us look good. Is it wrong to say that this is my favorite episode we've ever done? Well, I'm gonna. It's my favorite episode we've ever done because today we're talking industry trends and we're talking about dog photography. Our guest today, Jen Hillenga, has set up a dog photography business in New York City. And what she's doing is incredible. First of all, the business is blowing up, and secondly, she's living her best life. This episode will tell the story of someone that had all the success in the world, but they burned out. They sold their business, they moved to New York, and now they're doing something that makes them so happy every day. And it's providing a critical targeted service to a great target audience. It's the type of business we would all love to have. So let's learn from Jen. She's standing by. We'll talk to her next. Jen, it's great to have you on the show. How are you today?

I'm doing great.

Now, you've been an international jet setter lately. We are at Imaging USA in Nashville. But tell us about your backstory of travel because you've been flying all over.

I have, like, I don't even know at this point, jet lag or whatever, but like, 36 hours ago, I was in Paris, and then I flew Paris to New York and then New York to here within a day.

That's incredible.

But I think I mastered the jet lag, so I think I'm good. I think I'm set.

You know, it seems like you're really with us because right now your body clock seems like it's what, midnight or something like that? I don't even know.

I think I mastered it, though. I didn't sleep much before I flew back, and then when I flew back, I crashed and reset, so we're good.

Well, we got a lot to get into today because you're doing one of the coolest things I've heard. This is the industry trend series. We get to talk about pet photography. So if someone hasn't met you yet, tell them who you are and what you do.

Well, my name is Jen Hillenga and I am a dog photographer in New York City.

That's so cool. I just have a thousand questions. How did you get into dog photography? Because it sounds like something everyone would love to do, but I'm sure there's a backstory.

There is a backstory. Isn't there always? So a lot of people might know me for my portraits from years past. I've been doing this forever. I started as a camera room assistant between my junior and senior year of college and fell into working for several studios and then started my own and did portraits like everybody does. So I did, you know, family, children, high school seniors, weddings. Was kind of known for the high school seniors and the posing and marketing and all. And then I burned out hard on people. I was in my mid-30s and I had spent my entire 20s and most of my 30s building a business, but I hadn't built a life. And I had a 6,000 square foot studio and a bunch of employees and a business partner, and all I did was eat, sleep, breathe the business. And I hated it. And I wasn't happy. And I had another company called Jen's Fabulous Stuff that sold education and marketing and templates to photographers all over the world. And an opportunity presented itself that I was able to sell that business.

Cool.

And to a company in New York. And so I took it. I had kind of said my entire life that if money was no object, I would move to New York in a heartbeat. And it was one of those situations where be careful what you put into the universe, because the universe might hand it to you and say, "Oh, you've been saying this for 15 years. Let's make that happen." So I sold my company and they kind of bought me with the business to be creative director of the print lab. And so I did that for about six and a half years. And then COVID hit, and I think we kind of all took stock of who we wanted to be and what we wanted to be doing and what was important to us. And they sent me home to work at home with my dogs. And I'm like, I don't think I can go back.

Wow.

So I decided that I wanted to stop directing creative and go back to being creative. And so I decided that, well, I knew that the older I got, the more I like dogs and the less I like people. So I just decided that if I had to people, I was only gonna people with dog people. And then I was gonna photograph dogs. And so I decided that like, early February. And by February 20th, I had 15 sessions on the books and had two scrolls worth of Instagram dog portraits from past clients and my own dogs, and my friend's dogs. And I launched it super quickly while having an exit plan from where I was working, and then left July 20th and just did full time from there on. Best decision ever.

Now, I want to talk about how you started it, how you scaled it, but I don't want to move past something that I don't think it talks, gets talked about enough, which is, I hit the wall. I completely burned out. Yeah, we talk when things aren't going well. I don't think we talk enough about things are going so well that we forget we have life to live.

Right.

Reflecting back on that, if someone right now is running and gunning at full max, everything is great, but they may be feeling what you were feeling. From someone who's come out the other side, what would you tell them?

I would say that you don't have to do everything. What I have learned transitioning to this business, I said if I was ever going to do it again, I was going to do it differently. I think I fell into that mindset that success meant bigger and more, and it meant a bigger studio and more employees and more sessions and more money. But I wasn't making any more money when we ended, even though we were doing over a million dollars by the time we decided to, you know. But I wasn't making any more money than when my studio was doing 400,000 because I was giving it to overhead and employees. And it was just like I was in my mid-30s and I was single, but I had all these mouths to feed. And the pressure of having to do all of this work to make sure everyone was okay and to feed the machine was just debilitating. And I was like, I don't. This isn't who I am. And I don't know how I let it get out of control. And I think to some people that they would be like, oh, my God, I would love that. But, you know, to be that busy, because as photographers, we do kind of sometimes struggle to get clients in the door. But once that ball is rolling, it's also hard to stop it. It's like it gets rolling downhill. And, you know, so I kind of blew up my life and had, like, this whole, you know, epiphany of, this isn't who I want to be. I don't– I'm working till the wee hours of the morning. I'm getting no sleep. I'M not, you know, traveling and you have your own business because you want a certain amount of freedom. But then if you grow too much and don't do it the right way and you're not smart about those decisions and you don't do enough outsourcing, then it just becomes this monster. And I think you have to stay true to what you actually want and understand that it doesn't have to be huge to be successful. What is the number that gives you balance and keeps you content? And I have that now. I have like one part-time employee. I'm on the cusp of maybe doing another employee to maybe help with some content sort of things. But I will never have that many employees, and I'm so much more profitable now to myself than I ever was when I had it all, quote, unquote.

One more question on the burnout. I promise we'll get to the dogs here.

Yeah, it's all good. I'm here to answer anything you'd like.

I think it's important that we talk about it because people are wallowing in that and they don't realize that they're on autopilot.

Right.

Where did you find the permission or the confidence to make that switch? Because when you have a big business like that, you have all of these people that you're working to sustain because this is my team. I don't want to let them down, I don't want to let others down. How did you find the confidence to say, nope, that's it. I'm making a change for me because to value our self like that, it can. I've seen people struggle with it, and you didn't, which is awesome. How did you do that? Or did that just come naturally?

I think I have a lot of philosophies about how the universe works. And I am a creature of habit, and I don't usually make a change until the universe makes that change for me. And it usually is kind of what I'm projecting or what I'm wanting or whatever. But, you know, I had a business partner who also was burned out and we kind of mutually decided that we needed to make a change and the opportunity presented itself and it was just kind of fell in our lap. I wish that there was a better answer of I decided, but it was just happenstance of what happened in life of like, I mean, the decision was, okay, I'm gonna take the opportunity that is here and I am gonna make that change. And it wasn't without you know, a little bit of thought and a little bit of trepidation. But it was also like when I, with a friend, drove the moving truck into New York, it was like I felt at home, which is weird because I had never felt at home almost ever. I grew up in a small town in the middle of nowhere, which I loved my upbringing, but I did not fit in. And then I was in Minneapolis for 18 years. Also didn't feel like I fit in. I feel like my attitude has always been very New Yorker, even though I wasn't there. And it was like when I never had a filter and now I have no patience, all of it's gone.

No filter.

New Yorkers are kind, but not necessarily nice. I'm like, oh, these are my people. But I like arrived and was like, okay. I don't know that I could live another place anymore after being in New York. So I wish I could say that I made the decision and I made it happen and I went there, but it just kind of came together.

Well, I appreciate you sharing that. Now let's get back to the dog photography because you didn't say, one day I'm going to do dog photography. And everything was great. You actually did some work and some research, some, as Rich Johnson would say, creative R&D to develop what you wanted. Can you talk about how the actual look and feel of your work evolved out of the idea and how it came into existence?

Yeah, I mean, there was a little bit of, I'm going to do dog photography. Let's make that happen because I am very focused on, and I always have been this. If this is the path I'm choosing to take, then I'm a little bit of a Capricorn perfectionist of this is the path. I'm going to make this amazing, and it's going to be better than anybody else. I'm not better than anybody else I've ever met, but I'm going to try.

I know what you mean.

I'm very much goal oriented, et cetera. So I did kind of decide, you know what? I'm going to do dog photography. Now what do I have to do to put that together? So I did research, a little bit of, are there other dog photographers in New York? What are they providing? What does it look like? What am I doing? What makes me a little bit different is I do come from that portrait background. So when I'm doing dog photography, I'm treating it like I would have treated a family session or a high school senior or a child session before I was in New York, where it's very much about capturing a portrait of that dog. A lot of the other dog photographers in New York are a little bit more street photography, a little bit more candid. And I came at it with that 20 some years of portrait experience where I want to make this a wall portrait and I want to give it, I call it Fairy Dust Glow and editing. And I think that's what sets me apart and has kind of been one of the driving factors of the popularity is it was something different than what most people in New York had seen. But I looked around at the fact that New York, especially during COVID which you think COVID is a crazy time to start a business, but everybody got a dog because everybody was working from home and everybody needed, you know, a mental health animal.

Yeah, totally.

Like the shelters were empty, and everybody got a puppy, and everybody had time to do a session and it was weirdly like the best time to start a dog business. New York is one of the most dog friendly places in the world. So we have, you know, all of the brands for dogs are based in New York, and all of the influencers are in New York. And we have dog cafes and super friendly things around Dog World. And I was a little bit integrated with that because I have two dogs of my own from rescue. So I knew several of the rescues that I could partner with. I knew that there was gonna be a path to success. And it was just putting all the puzzle pieces together.

You said it took off fast. How fast?

Real fast. So, like I said, I decided the first week of February 2021, that that's what I was gonna do. And I have a lovely friend who is a boudoir photographer, Kate Scaglione in New Jersey. And I told her one day, I'm going to photograph dogs. And she's a crazy dog person like I am. And she said, well, what I can do is I have a studio in New Jersey. I'll do a call out to–it's not something I do–I'll do a call out to my clients and see if we can line up some models. So I did a studio day of her clients in her studio

and then

just started the Instagram. I started working with rescues, doing adoption photos, helping them fundraise with photo booths and things like that, and becoming a part, a bigger part of dog community. Like I said, I was kind of in dog community a little bit already with my dogs, reaching out to friends who had dogs and just getting the ball rolling, starting a referral program. And it was like, once I was integrated, especially into those rescue communities, they're very tight knit. And when you are passionate about the same things that those communities are passionate about, and you're helping and you're giving back, people very willingly want to help you. And I was doing something that was mutually beneficial and that they wanted. And the rescues started to give a free session with every adoption. And I work with four different rescues and the city shelter. And just not being afraid to, like, insert yourself into these communities. And it's not like you're going into it because you want something back. I mean, it's a mutually beneficial thing. I just wanted to be in contact with a million dog people and see where I could help, but also where it could be mutually beneficial.

The personification of dogs, the fact that there are children now, is that obviously helping your business?

Oh, yeah. Especially in New York. Because a lot of times, if people have children in New York, they might move out to Jersey or the suburbs. So most of my clients are between 35 and 45, give or take 30 and 45, and their dog is their child. And a lot of times they have, you know, we're in New York, so it's expensive, but the jobs are also better economically. Like, people have higher salaries. So because the dog is their child, they do have an expendable income. And again, COVID was kind of that perfect time because we started to appreciate what we appreciate. And so, you know, when you have brought in this animal to your home and it has become your confidant and the thing that you're taking care of, and you want to celebrate that we don't have dogs for as long. You know, I have a lot of clients that just want to commemorate their dog's life. And I always say, I want to photograph you with your dog at this time now. And if we do it several times, great. But I want to photograph people and their relationships with their dog in this beautiful city. And people are excited to do that.

I was thinking about that before we came on the air, and I actually couldn't complete the thought without getting choked up. Because when you have a dog, I at least am always aware of their mortality.

Oh, yeah. You pre-grieve. The moment you adopt it, you're like, you're not allowed to get any older. None, because I don't know how to be–yeah, I have two. They're eight and nine. I don't want to talk about it. No, I'm just kidding.

Well, as opposed to, like, you're taking children's photography, people don't get their kids picture taken thinking, well, you know, they won't turn 16. But with our dogs. I know I do it, it makes me sad just talking about it. Why are we talking about it?

I know, and it's crazy because now all those COVID puppies are like five and six. And some of those breeds have like a general seven-year lifespan, you know, and if you get 12 to 15 years with your dog, like, that's a big long life for a dog. So I have like the only career where I will lose all my clients in a short amount of time. It's crazy.

But we are changing the subject. We're changing the subject. We can't talk about this anymore.

I just had a PPA magazine article that just came out and I'm going through and like four of the dogs in between when we did the article and when it came out right now are like. And it's so, you know, what is sweet about it is those, those people always message me and say, always, we've lost. They've crossed the rainbow bridge. Thank you so much for what you did. And these images that I have forever. And I also tell people that when we're doing the console for the session, I will say, I know that you might not want to be in the photo, but be camera ready because you don't have a choice. And I say, you know, I don't care if you purchase that Image, but in 10 years, I want there to exist an amazing photo of you and your dog. Because if you're anything like me, like I have 13 photos from last week of my dog sleeping, and I'm not in any good photos except for ones that I have done, you know, with my friend Lindsay, that I put my money where my mouth is and like I need to be in photos with my dog. So it's important that people are in the photos with their dog. And I don't give people like the opportunity to not do that.

We're going to talk about literally anything else because I'm all sad.

I know, I'm sorry.

No, it's. But it's important, and I think it has a big business impact about why you're doing so great. One of the reasons why you're doing so great. When you're selling to these clients, are they buying different things than family clients or what are they picking up from you with the image on it?

Yeah. And it's funny because I know in, you know, the portrait world that the goal with family portraits, you know, and many of the other people portrait genres, the goal is always a big wall portrait. So that was some of the research that I had to do. Being a photographer in New York, understanding that regionally and in the city, that is not my biggest product that I sell because we don't have the wall space, and people buy different things depending on who they are and where they live. So my clients are younger, we have small apartments, we have no wall space. They move often. So I do a lot of albums and I do a lot of image boxes. I do a lot of acrylic block prints, things that you could put on shelves. And then everything that I sell in print. If you purchase it in print, they get the digital.

Oh, yeah.

So 99% of my clients print and get the digital images with what they've purchased. And most of them will do a combination, unless they do an album, because that includes a lot of images. Most of them will do a combination of what they want to print, and then they might add on a few digitals of things they don't want to lose. But I believe strongly in the power of print, and I price it accordingly that I'm not afraid to let them have the digitals with that. And I think photographers sometimes can get wrapped up in being afraid to do digitals. I see it as just another product line line. And that product line also serves a marketing purpose, because when they have paid me enough money that I am happy to release those files, they're also using them to market me. They're putting them on Instagram and social media. They're putting it on their phone, they're showing all their friends, they're texting it to people, and it's just marketing. So for me, as a photographer, I've never wanted to limit that and say, I don't offer digitals. As long as I'm being paid appropriately and they are printing, I'm fine with that being another medium that works in my favor.

I have to ask, did you have to train and learn how to pose? Dogs capture images. It's not like you can tell a dog what to do.

You can.

Well, tell me about that, because it's. My dog won't do what I ask it to do. So how are you getting these amazing shots? Did you have to learn how to, like, light and pose and move differently than you would with a human?

Yes and no. So you can pose some dogs. Some dogs are super well-trained. Some dogs will hold a position. You can kind of, you know, even move their legs into position. And they'll just stay and hold it. Some dogs. That's a little bit rare. And sometimes, an overly trained dog is actually more difficult because they are super focused on their person. And so, looking at camera, they're like, no, who are you? Why are you here? My person is here. So that kind of middle training is really fun. But I work with all different levels of dogs. Some are from my rescue connections. I work with one rescue in New York called Korean K9, and they actually, this is terrible, but they rescue dogs from the Korean Meat trademark, which has just been outlawed. So it is in the transition of being shut down. But they rescue those dogs from, and you know, it's just a different part of the world. And they bring them to a shelter in Korea and then do rehab and bring them to the US but they've basically been raised as livestock, and so they don't have a lot of human interaction. So those dogs are a little bit my most difficult, but it's also the most rewarding because those owners, the people that have those dogs, aren't able to get a good photo most of the time because the dog might be afraid of a camera, doesn't want to make eye contact. It's very shut down. So when I'm able to capture something beautiful of a dog like that, people so appreciate that. But you do have to learn dog body language. You know, dogs don't have words, but they will tell you everything that they're thinking if you're able to be in tune with that. So I have a bunch of noisemakers that I bring. Squeaky toys, bird calls, duck calls, treats. Yeah, I have a process of meeting a dog. I consult with every client and have them tell me about their dog so that I know what I'm getting into. Some dogs are super friendly and just you can walk them and be like, hello. And they're like, all about it. Some dogs you can't even talk to. You know, I've had dogs that I can only love from a distance and, you know, and that's fine. I want those people with reactive dogs to understand that it's okay. Well, you can also do this. I will acclimate to whoever your dog is, but you just kind of have to learn dog body language and understand it's just like people. I always used to say when I was a people photographer that I have like 5 minutes, less than 5 minutes to figure out who that person is, how they want to be seen, which is not necessarily who they are and who I need to be to get them to their best place in front of the camera. You have to kind of be a chameleon and half artist and half psychologist. And the same thing is true for dogs. Like, who is that dog? And what do I need to do in order to get the best expression and pose and everything out of that dog? Some dogs don't even know the command to sit. I'll get them in action. You know, what is their personality? I'm photographing whatever's in front of my camera. Who they are, not who I want them to be.

You had the right time with a great idea that matched the market. However, I think the backstory that I really want to highlight is you hustled, you worked free sessions at the start. Can you talk about free sessions and how that played into your rapid growth?

Oh, yeah. You know, a lot of speakers and a lot of people out there have the notion of, well, never work for free. And that's fine if that's your mentality, if you're busy, but if you're starting a business and nobody knows who you are and you know, you can know everybody in the community, but if they don't know you, it doesn't matter. So I knew that if I could just put people in front of my camera, they would buy. If I can get your dog in front of my camera, you're not going to walk away with the one free image that I'm offering you. So I started to give away free sessions and a free 8 x 10 left and right to everybody I possibly could. I had little cards. I go through Central Park, I have little cards that say, you've been spotted and they have Dalmatian spots on them. And it just says, I saw your dog, and I love your relationship. I'd love to capture it, use this card for a free session and 8 x 10, just handing them out in Central Park, just non. Stop. One of my best clients is a crazy–her dog is an Instagram influencer with like 600,000 followers.

Whoa.

But when I met her, it was just her big fluffy dog in Central Park. And I'm like, can I say hi to your dog? And he was six months old and had like 8,000 Instagram followers. And we've been on this journey together just because I was willing to go out and say hi and talk to her and give her a card. And I photograph her several times a year. And she now does giveaways on her Instagram to my sessions, where they have to follow me and follow her and like, and all this stuff, and then she'll give away a free session. She does it a couple of times a year, and that just builds that audience and just puts eyes on it. So, I mean, what else was I doing on Thursday? You know, like, I need to be photographing and I need to be working. And my whole thing is I changed my mindset. I used to think that, you know, every session had to be a sale. But when you're starting a business, I looked at every session as having a different metric for success. Like, yeah, sure, I need a sale, but I also need content, and I also need reputation, and I also need to build a website and my social media and all of these things. I need people to see me working. So even if that session only takes the free 8 x 10, I still have an entire beautiful session of trying out new locations and building excitement and building that reputation in these communities. So not every session has to be a sale in order for it to be successful. There's a lot of metrics for success.

Yeah. And you're talking in '26, that authenticity is key. I can see how just spending some time with you, that's not a problem for you. But for others, dropping the act and being themselves is a conscious decision.

Yeah, well, and what's interesting is the social media. My Instagram is basically where I built the entire business is on Instagram, and it has grown slowly but authentically. I'm almost at 14,000 followers right now. I haven't bought a single one, and every of those 14,000 followers is a dog owner in New York or a potential dog owner in New York, which is interesting, which we'll talk about as well, of why this has been easiest to grow of all the companies that I have on Instagram. But part of it is that social media should be social and it should be authentic. And so when I go on my Instagram, I'm not talking about me, I'm not talking about my business, I'm not talking about products that you should buy from me. I'm talking about the dog, and I'm talking about the relationship, and I'm talking about how much I love that dog and what their personality was about. And people want to follow that. They want to look at that they want to, you know, interact with. You know, I've seen T shirts that say, I like three people and 400 dogs on the Internet. And that's one of the reasons why this has been the easiest company that I've built. You know, when you are a people photographer, and you are doing, you know, newborn babies or weddings or high school seniors. People aren't looking for your service until they need that. So they're not looking for a baby photographer until they're pregnant. They're not looking for a wedding photographer till they're engaged. Everybody's looking at dogs. Everybody. I have so many people that follow my Instagram account who message me and they say, I don't actually have a dog, but I'm here for the dog content. And if I ever get a dog, I'm gonna call you. And it's also made me a better person, and it's made me happier because it's just joy. Dogs are just always happy to see you. And the content and the authenticity, it allows you just to be and not manufacture a business presence. You're just happy to be doing what you're doing. And if you are lucky enough in life to find the thing that fits, then it shouldn't be an overwhelming struggle when you find that thing. And if you're in a place where you're burned out or if it's an overwhelming struggle, maybe you haven't found the thing that fits.

And someone watching this right now is like, I want to do that, too. I want to be a dog photographer. Is there anything that we haven't covered that you think is critical that was a linchpin to making this business work or something that you wish you could do differently if you were to start over again? Because I can see how with your success and others like you, this is going to continue to explode in the industry and in the trends. So what haven't we covered? Or one little nugget that you can share before we log off?

Oh, man, that's a big question.

Well, let's– what mistakes did you make while you built it? Let's talk about that.

I don't make mistakes. I'm a Capricorn. Just kidding.

Perfect.

I think the mistakes I made is not learning how to streamline quicker. I think I spent the first year and a half with some bottlenecks. Like, I am ADHD. And there are certain things that I have executive dysfunction about that I hate doing that. So, like, for instance, my shipping. I'll get an I'm fine up into the point where I get the order in, and then it's like, oh, that's sitting over there. And the thought of the post office.

Oh, yes.

Right. And in New York, that feeling is like tenfold. Like I can't ship out orders to a post office. So I finally found a friend who's a wedding photographer who's free during the week, and she comes over one day a week and just does all the shipping. Great. Bottlenecks of client consultations where it was 14 emails back and forth for the first year. I don't know why I didn't think of these things sooner, but you know, when somebody requests a session going back and forth of, okay, I need to get you on the phone. What's a good time for you? What's a good time for you? And then finding out, oh, I can just make a Gmail templated email that sends them an online booking instead of going back and forth 14 times to find a good time. Now, this is what I have available. Here's my calendar. Book it yourself. And being okay with not every client being your client, understanding that if you have that consultation and they're not somebody that wants to invest or what you're doing doesn't fit in. I'm not in a position in my life. I don't want to do anything I don't want to do. I'm too old. So, you know, understanding that there's a photographer out there for everybody, and they don't need to be your client, and I don't chase anyone. If it works and it aligns, amazing. I would love to be your photographer, but if not, then there's no reason to push something that's not a good relationship. I've learned that just in life, like, I'm too old to chase anything. Everything that is meant for me will come to me, and if it's not, that's okay to let it go.

Congratulations on your success, and thank you so much for coming on the show.

Thanks for having me. It's been great.

Thanks for tuning in to this week's episode of The Professional Photographer podcast. Live from Imaging USA in Nashville on the Sony Cinema line set, we're using their Monitor & Control app. It's been a showstopper. People are coming by left and right, taking pictures of the gear. They're so excited about it. So a big thanks to Sony for taking care of business all this week. Now, if you enjoyed the episode, we really need you to like and subscribe that way. Next time we release a show, boink. It pops up in your feed. But the other thing that you can do is leave us a comment. What did our guests say that made you go, whoa, I never thought of it that way? Or, oh, I'm inspired. Let us know. That way we know that we're on the right track. The last thing you need to do is you gotta become a member of PPA. I mean, you're a PPA member, right? Well, if you're not, you are missing out big time on equipment insurance, top notch education, and a supportive community that wants to see you win as a photographer. If you're not yet a member, join now at ppa.com. That's ppa.com. Thanks again for tuning in. I'm Pat Miller, host of the show. I'm also the founder of the Small Business Owners community. That's what I do when I'm not hanging out with you. We'll see you right here next time.