Veras, the AI-Powered Rendering Tool

Evan Troxel: 00:00:00

Ben, welcome to the Confluence podcast.

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It's great to have you.

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And today we're gonna be talking

about Veras and I think a lot of the

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things that have been going on behind

the scenes leading up to and during

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development of Veras, maybe you could

just start off and explain what Veras is.

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And I, you know, I, the stuff

that I see you guys reposting on

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LinkedIn is absolutely incredible.

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It has to make you just like grin

with pride that people are creating

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amazing things with your tools.

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So tell, tell everybody what it

is, if they haven't heard of it, if

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they've been living under a rock,

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uh, and we'll just go from there,

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Benjamin Guler: For sure.

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Yeah.

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So it's gonna be back, uh, or at least

maybe this is the first in this format,

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uh, but yeah, it's gonna be here.

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Yeah.

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So Ves ves is a, I guess render is, is the

way we, you could say, but it's AI render

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and it uses a diffusion based rendering

to take your, model, your geometry and

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diffuse it so that it actually uses.

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Machine learning models to

actually get a rendition for you.

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And it's, the way it does that

is it, it, it de noises the image

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and then it adds noise back and it

essentially takes the way, it adds that

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noise back as per trained material.

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And it uses a prompt to guide

what you want to see in the image.

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So you could have something

like, okay, here's a building.

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Render it during summer or winter,

or, you know, make it a log cabin.

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So those sorts of like ridiculous, you

know, prompts you could put in there.

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And you don't have to be as ridiculous,

but it will actually respect that.

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It will actually try to get,

okay, this part of the building

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looks like it could be that.

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So it's starting to form that way

and then it becomes that it becomes

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a log cabin part of the building.

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So, um, it's, it's a, so it's an

application that's integrated within

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SketchUp, Revit, uh, rhino, we

have a beta version of Vectorworks.

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It also has a standalone and form.

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So we have all those different, uh,

applications that we're extending

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that, you know, in the AC space.

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So,

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yeah.

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Evan Troxel: And, and, and I just

want to throw out there like.

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You

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don't have to model all that stuff to

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get that kind of output.

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Right.

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And that's, to me, where this really

becomes a decision making or ideation kind

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of prototyping tool very much, which is

very different from traditional rendering.

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Right?

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Rendering was, was always like a

later stage, or it was a visualization

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technique a lot of times to use for

communication with clients, with

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pinups in the office, things like that.

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And now it's kind of shifted

the weight of the potential

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of a rendering, quote unquote

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rendering application because

you could feed it a generic piece

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of geometry and it fills in the

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details magically.

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Uh, and just

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as a personal anecdote, I have a model

of a, a house that I was working on as

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an architect and was using Veras to.

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You guys have these

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amazing little presets, right?

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Which are like with Snow and

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Grassy

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Hills and, and just to

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kind of show off because not everybody

necessarily knows what to prompt the first

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time they're gonna prompt this thing.

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So you give them

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a little bit of a shortcut.

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Head start,

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Benjamin Guler: right.

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Evan Troxel: I clicked one

of those buttons and I got to

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see this house in the snow.

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It happens to be a house in the

mountains, I showed it to my

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family and they were blown away.

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Right?

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Just

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blown away.

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And to get back to that, the

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images that I see you

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guys sharing on

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LinkedIn in these various posts,

it's absolutely incredible.

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So people should definitely check out.

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I do You guys have a hashtag that

you try to use to kind of group

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these together on social posting?

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Benjamin Guler: #VerasAI usually,

but a lot of times I search #Veras

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'cause you know, that's easier.

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It's just that one's a very common

one, so you might not get everyth.

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So like #VerasRender, that's another one.

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Randall Stevens: it resonates with me.

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Uh, Ben, I don't know if you know,

but My personal history is I started

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a company called ArchVision years

ago, which was actually in the

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services business doing visualization.

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And what's interesting, I

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think about what you're tapping into

is it was kind of counterintuitive that

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a lot of the earliest stage of where

visualization was wanted or needed was

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actually just to, um, to service the

customer on, for them to go out market,

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raise money, move a project along.

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And of course you want that to be

as photo realistic as possible, and

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that was counterintuitive to the, the

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design process hasn't

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even started.

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So I need, I want Hyperrealism just

to get the project moving along,

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and then it's gonna go to zero and

then some design process starts that

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actually, you know, is the real thing.

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But I, I could imagine that you're, uh,

definitely able to help fill that gap

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in those earliest stages of, we just

need, the customer needs something to go.

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You know, we're not designing.

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We're just

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trying to sell.

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Right.

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Move the

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project along.

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Benjamin Guler: Yeah.

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that, that also reminds me of, or just

back in when I started in this industry

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too, is, uh, I, I had a course and it

was like just drawing with like prisma

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color and markers and pen and actually

just getting renditions of that and

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using all sorts of like different media.

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And you have one render and it's

like hand done and this is it.

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So take this render and, and you know,

you'll won't replicate it the same way.

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And it's just of this perspective.

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And you can have five different

iterations that have a complete

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different color palette.

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It's much more analogous

to that, where it's like.

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On the ideation side, where

we're like, okay, let's just

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look at this and explore ideas.

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And yes, it looks pretty photo realistic

and that is that counterintuitive part

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where it's like people get kinda set

into like, this is, you know, they get

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married to, but it's also very powerful.

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Like it could be that, uh, but yeah,

it's, it's kind of more like that.

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It's like this kind of expert

painter that learned how to paint

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really well, how to fine pixel by

pixel, uh, way where, you know, it

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could produce these, these images.

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And then, uh, Evan, you were talking

about earlier about, uh, how, uh, you

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were kind of using it for like a personal

project and just, uh, testing that out.

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It's funny 'cause um, it bill, uh,

he's in the process of, of, uh,

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purchasing a house, uh, our CEO and,

uh, he was doing the same thing.

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It's like, uh, he's just taking

pictures of the house and looking at

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it like, okay, what I, I want this, uh.

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I know this is kind of dated and

this, you know, the kitchen looks like

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this, but what could it look like?

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So just like, just kind of having, you

know, the whole, you know, the bones

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are there, the skeleton's there, you

know, just changing the finishes of the

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building and he was playing with that and

sharing it with our team, and it's pretty

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fantastic like that you could do that.

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Uh, and yes, it's not replicated where

it's kind like a traditional renderer

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where you kind of, okay, you have the

theme model, you set all your views,

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uh, or your camera and you have your

materials, your lighting and all that.

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And then you could, you know, make

a video out of it, uh, and, and

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start to, you know, it's every,

everything is prescriptive, but you

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have to be that expert and you have

to devote that time to get there.

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It's, it's not reproducible right now.

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It could become there soon.

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We'll see how, how things are working.

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But, um, right now it's kind of really

powerful for the aviation, uh, stage

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where you could just explore ideas and

just kinda see what, what could look good

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and just kinda have that inspiration.

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It's like your like

Pinterest board, right?

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Within your actual project, not,

not just kind of going online to

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find those inspiration images.

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Like what?

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Just take those images and put 'em there.

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So.

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Evan Troxel: I, I find that is a super

useful way to use these kinds of tools,

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which is stop hunting for hours online

for something that it represents what

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you're looking for, and just prompt

what you're looking for and create it.

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Co-create it with these tools.

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Uh, so obviously it's using your guidance

to get there and you will get better

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at prompting it, and it will give you

better results, uh, by doing that.

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Um, but, but you're, you're

learning a new way of working.

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And even for like PowerPoint

presentations, instead of going

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out and looking for imagery

that I, I need for a PowerPoint,

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I will

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use Dolly

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three to do that with prompting

or mid journey, right?

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Because it gives me something unique.

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Number one, it gives me something that

really kind of focuses on what I needed

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to focus on, because it's very difficult

to find stock photography or imagery that

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may be exactly what you're looking for.

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It's a fantastic use for that.

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And now we can do that

with architectural images.

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As a designer myself, I

also want to throw out that.

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Like what Randall was talking about

a minute ago has always been a

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really difficult thing for architects

to deal with on the client side.

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And it's not getting easier, which is, it

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looks done, it looks done,

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done, when you see these images

and clients don't know what it

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takes to get

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there.

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And so

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reverse engineering something that you

may come up with during this ideation

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process into actual architecture

is the skill of an architect.

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And it takes a new conversation

point with a client to get there now.

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And I think, uh, that, that is something

that we're kind of working our way

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through on the

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design side, which is

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how to talk to people about this stuff.

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Because like

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there is your log

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cabin

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in the woods.

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It's Right,

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there, it looks

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done, and it's like, nope.

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Now we actually have to do

everything it takes to turn

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that into actual architecture.

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Um, and we've always

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had this issue on one

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way or another with,

with rendering, right?

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It's like, well, it.

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Like, my wife and I did a project for my

sister-in-Law, and she, like, we had Revit

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floor plans and she thought it was done.

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It's like, we haven't even started.

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And how do you communicate that?

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Because it

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was just space layouts.

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It's

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just adjacencies.

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It's,

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it's like, does this feel right?

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We're trying to figure out if

we're going in the right direction.

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And, and they're thinking

because they don't, they're

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not well versed in this, man.

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It's, it's done.

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Right.

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Can we, let's get

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started on the project.

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And it's like, oh my

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gosh, we have so much work to

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do and this is

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that on steroids.

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And I just

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wanna throw all that

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out because these are the kinds of

conversations that architects are

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having amongst themselves

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on their teams as they're

pinning stuff up on the wall and

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sending images out to clients.

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And, um, I mean, you're, you're

probably getting a lot of heat

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even back, I would imagine, as

a developer of a tool like this.

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Like, you're killing our process

that we've gotten so good at.

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It's com It's changing it, right?

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You're pulling the rug

out from under our feet.

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I

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bet you, you hear all

kinds of weird stuff like

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Benjamin Guler: Yeah.

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Now I, I want to, I wanna touch on that.

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Like, I think it's, I really do

think it's a co-authoring approach,

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regardless, like you talked about

communication with the client.

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Yes.

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That's great.

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Like as architects and as designers,

you can look at an image of a building

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and know the project you're working

on and visualize it in your own

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mind, what you envision that to be.

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Because you've, you're trained and you've

done it so many times that that's kind of

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like, you know, you can read a four plan

and you can understand what the layout is

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with a client.

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Like it's emotional.

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Like you can't depict that, you

know, simply by showing a floor

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plan or like how, how things are.

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If you actually show a, a imagery of that,

like it's, it's kind of the equivalent of.

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Teleporting what, how you are thinking

in something that's, you know, something

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a bit more consumable, something that

could actually be interpreted and,

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and invoke that emotion with a client.

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You can say, okay, from these five

very different ideas, it seems like

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you're gravitating towards this thing.

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And then, okay, what is that

reverse, reverse engineering process?

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I think that process actually is also

creative because you're still kind of

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doing that when you're kind of going

deep into your mind to kind of sculpt

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out or, or, or re you know, re retract

more things that you've learned over

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the past and compose this new project.

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It's kind of similar to that.

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I think that that kind of synergy is

still there, but at least you are kind

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of have a much better communication and

more, uh, connectivity with the client.

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So I think, I think it's a really

kind of, it's not taking away like,

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okay, like now we don't get to render.

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Like I think it's a different process.

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It's actually a hybrid thing

where you're using it even for

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yourself actually as a designer,

you can use it as an inspiration.

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Like, oh, I didn't think of, you

know, that kind of materiality here,

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but okay, how could it really work?

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And then you kind of design and you

build a building and you design the

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building in such a way that you.

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You know, you can

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put

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those pieces of the

puzzle together properly,

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Evan Troxel: Yeah.

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Benjamin Guler: so

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Randall Stevens: maybe,

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uh, maybe Ben, you can take us back

to, uh, just in the development of

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this, when, uh, what's the backstory?

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When did, when did

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it happen?

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Was there a,

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when did the technology,

uh, present itself?

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And then

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ultimately, how did that evolve

into the product that it is and,

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and how did y'all think about that?

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Benjamin Guler: of course.

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Yeah.

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So we, I think in 2022, I believe, uh,

it's when we had like merger mid journey

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V one come out and everyone was super

excited and we saw these kinda like

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painterly, like ghost-like imagery.

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It's like V one, V two.

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And then during that time I

was like very intrigued by it.

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I'm like, oh, this is interesting.

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So I made an account and, and started

to play with that and it was awesome.

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It was very fun.

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And I was using it for, I

think we were working on.

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Glyph at the time, or not

glyph another product.

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And we were trying to come up

with a, come up with a logo.

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So we're like prompting ideas in there.

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It's like, okay, what's

the logo gonna be like?

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So it was a really fun process.

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And then Stable Diffusion came out,

uh, at, at a similar time with, and

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it was, you know, lower quality.

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It was pretty, you know, people

were, but it was exciting 'cause

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it was open source and now a lot

of people could build on that.

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That's what we build up,

that's what we built on too.

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Uh, but back then it was very basic

and it was a lot of different, like

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very poor quality, uh, imagery.

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But then they upgraded to 1.4, 1.5,

and then, uh, I think at one point

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they also added image to image.

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And then like, okay, this is

interesting image to image.

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What can you do with image to image?

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And this is before like, you know,

depths and uh, other kind of models

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came out, uh, or candy models.

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And so what we wanted to just play

out was like, okay, what if we

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get, the idea was just to test.

328

: 00:13:11

What if we get like, uh,

a Revit image that looks.

329

: 00:13:16

Close to realistic, like the materials

are better, you make the lighting better.

330

: 00:13:19

Like what if it's like a close

enough like, like digital image that

331

: 00:13:23

looks kinda like a rendering that's

digital and just a little bit like

332

: 00:13:26

let AI change it ever so slightly.

333

: 00:13:28

What does it look like?

334

: 00:13:30

Will it look better?

335

: 00:13:31

Can it fit?

336

: 00:13:31

You know, correct those edges where

it looks very like digital and just

337

: 00:13:34

make, add that little dirt just to

make it look like, almost like a photo.

338

: 00:13:38

And that's what, you know, before

anything, like all the other models

339

: 00:13:41

came out, we just play with that.

340

: 00:13:42

We had like really cool results.

341

: 00:13:43

Like, wow, this is cool.

342

: 00:13:45

I mean, it still looks

like Rev or whatever.

343

: 00:13:46

'cause we're testing in Rev first, but

it looks better than Rev a little bit,

344

: 00:13:51

it was so bare bone, but that was,

you know, so we already started

345

: 00:13:55

developing like something, some

ideas with that, okay, this is great.

346

: 00:13:58

And that was like middle of, uh, 2022.

347

: 00:14:00

Uh, and so, and then, um, control Net

came out and like other models came out.

348

: 00:14:05

I'm like, okay, let's try

that and let's, let's add add.

349

: 00:14:08

And we already kinda had the pipeline

for that where we, 'cause we started

350

: 00:14:11

to tinker with it and we started to

add all, all those, you know, other

351

: 00:14:15

technologies that's being developed.

352

: 00:14:16

And so as we were adding that, uh, it

really started to become a product.

353

: 00:14:21

Okay.

354

: 00:14:21

Like, actually this is like good,

like we should, like, you know,

355

: 00:14:24

like, let's see what people think.

356

: 00:14:25

And then I think at the beginning of, of

January, uh, in, uh, I think it was like,

357

: 00:14:31

uh, January 2nd or something like that,

uh, we wanted to get it before the, the

358

: 00:14:34

year ended, but you know, the holidays

and they're like, Ugh, it was so close.

359

: 00:14:37

But anyways, uh, January of, uh, um,

: 2023

360

: 00:14:42

for, for Revit it was very basic.

361

: 00:14:43

It's just like, uh, you know,

limited resolution and, and, and,

362

: 00:14:47

you know, uh, but it was really cool.

363

: 00:14:49

It was like a really cool start.

364

: 00:14:50

And then as things have developed

and things have, uh, upgraded over

365

: 00:14:53

time, we just kind of kept on adding

and started to build our like.

366

: 00:14:57

More of our own, um, even our own models.

367

: 00:14:59

And we start to train and we, we

started to kind of really finesse

368

: 00:15:02

the process and, uh, kind of take

more, more own ownership of it.

369

: 00:15:05

But that's kind of how,

like it's nascency.

370

: 00:15:07

That's how it started.

371

: 00:15:08

We just kept on tinkering and like,

okay, let's just see what this is.

372

: 00:15:11

This is fun.

373

: 00:15:11

And, and uh, yeah.

374

: 00:15:13

That's kind of how it, uh, started.

375

: 00:15:15

Evan Troxel: So Ben, can you show

everybody what this actually looks like?

376

: 00:15:19

I think we've, we've talked about

it, we've alluded to it, but I

377

: 00:15:21

think now would make a lot of sense

to just show how it's working.

378

: 00:15:25

Um, and then we can get into

kind of how you got to this

379

: 00:15:28

point.

380

: 00:15:29

Benjamin Guler: Sure.

381

: 00:15:29

Sounds great.

382

: 00:15:30

So, um, I have a SketchUp model

I like the nav a lot in SketchUp.

383

: 00:15:35

So, uh, it's a button on the ribbon

here or on the tool, uh, panel.

384

: 00:15:39

And so as soon as we click that,

uh, UI opens and then, uh, we

385

: 00:15:45

could see our, our model in here.

386

: 00:15:47

Uh, change the resolution.

387

: 00:15:48

And these are the presets that

you were talking about earlier.

388

: 00:15:51

Uh, Evan.

389

: 00:15:51

So we have a few different presets here.

390

: 00:15:53

So if I click this one, you know,

it, um, it starts off right away.

391

: 00:15:58

One thing that we've learned with

our Helix product is, um, and

392

: 00:16:02

that's our kind of interoperability

from Sketch Up to Revit

393

: 00:16:04

so it brings in, uh, sketch geometry

into Native bim, was just a challenge

394

: 00:16:08

to get people as few clicks as

possible to get like a success.

395

: 00:16:13

Just like, okay, get me, like, I wanna

click one button and I get something.

396

: 00:16:16

It's not the right thing,

but it's something.

397

: 00:16:18

And so we've learned that and

that's how kind we added this,

398

: 00:16:21

uh, explore mode where, uh, we've

learned from that application where.

399

: 00:16:25

Even in this one as well, we've kind

of seen how people would like write

400

: 00:16:27

different prompts in the beginning.

401

: 00:16:28

Like they just wouldn't

know what to write.

402

: 00:16:30

Like I just, I don't know.

403

: 00:16:30

I'm lost for words.

404

: 00:16:32

So, you know, the, the rendition

doesn't look great if you

405

: 00:16:34

don't put anything in in there.

406

: 00:16:35

You have to kind of

define something in there.

407

: 00:16:37

Uh, we try to help that a little bit

and it sometimes, you know, some, you

408

: 00:16:40

could get some, some decent results

now without any prompt, but it's, it

409

: 00:16:43

really does help guide the rendering

as soon as you add some prompts.

410

: 00:16:47

So this page is kind of like that, where

it's like, okay, this is that single

411

: 00:16:51

one button click where you could just,

uh, so I'll just try a few of these.

412

: 00:16:54

I'll just click them.

413

: 00:16:55

I'll just go for it.

414

: 00:16:57

Evan Troxel: I.

415

: 00:16:57

think it's really important to just

sit on what you just said for a moment.

416

: 00:17:02

Uh, doing something that makes it as

easy as possible for somebody to see

417

: 00:17:07

some results that matter to them.

418

: 00:17:09

It's their model.

419

: 00:17:10

Right?

420

: 00:17:11

It's not like these presets are

some model that you're supplying.

421

: 00:17:14

No, it's applying these presets to

whatever I give the Veras application to,

422

: 00:17:20

to work with as an underlay basically.

423

: 00:17:23

And it, it immediately gives me as

the user permission to play with this.

424

: 00:17:29

And I think that is super important

from a development standpoint to

425

: 00:17:32

kind of reiterate that message.

426

: 00:17:34

It's like, what do you do when

you don't know what to do?

427

: 00:17:37

Oh, there's these buttons right here.

428

: 00:17:38

And that's a great place to start.

429

: 00:17:40

And, and just for people who are

developing apps, I, I, I see this

430

: 00:17:44

come up over and over and over again.

431

: 00:17:46

Like, what would it look

like if it was easy?

432

: 00:17:48

Because we've all been

through on this call, right?

433

: 00:17:52

What does the

434

: 00:17:53

vray interface look

435

: 00:17:54

like?

436

: 00:17:54

It's

437

: 00:17:54

like, are you serious?

438

: 00:17:56

It's like flying a jet, right?

439

: 00:17:57

It's, it's, it's got the, the dialogue

boxes and the settings and the, the

440

: 00:18:01

sliders and the words I've never

seen before as a first time user.

441

: 00:18:06

And it can't, we, we know what it

takes to be a, an expert V-Ray user

442

: 00:18:11

with the materials and the lighting

and all the settings, and then there's

443

: 00:18:14

something like this, which is, this

is a completely different paradigm

444

: 00:18:19

Randall Stevens: Yeah,

445

: 00:18:19

Evan Troxel: you're making

it as easy as possible to

446

: 00:18:20

get started with

447

: 00:18:21

that.

448

: 00:18:22

Randall Stevens: we talk about

449

: 00:18:22

that as time to value, Right.

450

: 00:18:25

What's your time to value for

451

: 00:18:26

that customer so they get their

452

: 00:18:28

kind of taste of success

as quickly as possible.

453

: 00:18:31

Uh, just a quick backstory.

454

: 00:18:32

I used to, like in the early, early days,

early two thousands, I was teaching at the

455

: 00:18:37

university and I used to teach 3D studio.

456

: 00:18:41

And it was like, I don't know if it was

me or the students, but it seemed like

457

: 00:18:45

every year that I taught it, it got hard.

458

: 00:18:47

It took longer and longer to

get them to the point where they

459

: 00:18:51

could actually just do anything.

460

: 00:18:52

And then SketchUp came around

and I'm like, man, the time

461

: 00:18:55

to value is just like nothing.

462

: 00:18:57

They can start,

463

: 00:18:58

you know, in, in 10 minutes,

464

: 00:19:00

start seeing some success.

465

: 00:19:01

So I agree, and, and I think you

know, what you're doing here,

466

: 00:19:04

Ben, is, is, is a key to success.

467

: 00:19:07

Show some instant value and then.

468

: 00:19:09

They'll give you more time, right.

469

: 00:19:11

Evan Troxel: these are just amazing.

470

: 00:19:12

Like, let's just, they're magic.

471

: 00:19:14

These are just magic.

472

: 00:19:15

Like I, you're smiling, I'm, I know

like you feel this feeling all the

473

: 00:19:19

time, but, but it's literally magic when

people see these for the first time,

474

: 00:19:24

no matter what you feel about AI and

the training and who's getting paid and

475

: 00:19:28

who, like that, that's, we've, we've

476

: 00:19:30

talked about those things on this

477

: 00:19:32

podcast, right?

478

: 00:19:33

The

479

: 00:19:33

governance, the ethics, uh, there's

so many things around this, and

480

: 00:19:38

this is, this is seriously magical.

481

: 00:19:40

And I just wanted to also point that

out, that these images that you're,

482

: 00:19:43

that, that your tool is presenting

us with immediately give us that

483

: 00:19:48

emotional connection potential.

484

: 00:19:51

To, to respond in real time, and I think

that is an extremely valuable tool to have

485

: 00:19:57

as a designer.

486

: 00:19:59

Benjamin Guler: Totally agreed.

487

: 00:20:00

And it is, it is very magical.

488

: 00:20:02

Like it never ceases to amaze

me like, oh, that looks cool.

489

: 00:20:04

The other one also looks cool.

490

: 00:20:06

So that's kind of part of it,

uh, part of the process of,

491

: 00:20:08

of, uh, developing the tools.

492

: 00:20:10

So like fun and so, uh, uh, you know.

493

: 00:20:14

There's so much fulfillment to

just kind of like, play with it.

494

: 00:20:16

And so like we just

keep on building on it.

495

: 00:20:18

Um, one thing that you said earlier

too that I wanna also kind of come

496

: 00:20:21

back just slightly to is, uh, as you

know with the presets, once you kind

497

: 00:20:25

of have those presets on here, you

could go back to any one of these kind

498

: 00:20:28

of renditions and you could see kind

of all the settings that were used.

499

: 00:20:31

So if you

500

: 00:20:33

change your, your image here, it updates

the prompt that was used for that.

501

: 00:20:36

And then you can kind of see,

okay, this is how that was written.

502

: 00:20:39

Uh, and like I think us as humans

is, we're pretty good at like reverse

503

: 00:20:42

engineering, uh, or not just reverse

engineer, but if learning by mimicry.

504

: 00:20:47

So like if you see like, okay, it

looks like those ideas are combat

505

: 00:20:49

separated and those phrases are built

that way for each comma, you kind

506

: 00:20:52

of start to read that without even

needing a, you know, a tutorial.

507

: 00:20:55

Like, oh, okay.

508

: 00:20:56

That's how that that prompt was.

509

: 00:20:57

'cause you could write anything,

you might write a narrative

510

: 00:20:59

and, and con a conversation.

511

: 00:21:01

Like, but it's not, you could see

the examples, it doesn't do that.

512

: 00:21:03

So you could, we're pretty intuitive

creatures where you could like, okay,

513

: 00:21:06

I could see how it's being written.

514

: 00:21:07

So I think that was kind of part of that.

515

: 00:21:09

I think you're also talking about

Randall water, like we want to get

516

: 00:21:11

to that aha moment where it's like.

517

: 00:21:14

The first click and then it's not

the right image yet, but you got

518

: 00:21:17

something with your data, like

it's your project and it looks

519

: 00:21:21

interesting.

520

: 00:21:22

Okay, now let's make it look like

what you want it to look like.

521

: 00:21:25

And you've seen an example of, you know,

of what that input, what it produces.

522

: 00:21:29

So if you wanted to change this,

you know, like let's say I don't

523

: 00:21:31

want a timber building, I want a

monolithic concrete building, right?

524

: 00:21:37

Then I'll render a few of those.

525

: 00:21:40

Then I, 'cause I know that's my

project, I'll just change the parts.

526

: 00:21:42

Like if you have something you we're

good at, like picking up certain parts

527

: 00:21:45

that are incorrect or what you want.

528

: 00:21:47

And so you just change the part

that you want to, what you think

529

: 00:21:49

it should be for your context.

530

: 00:21:51

And then, yeah, that, so that was

also part of that, uh, part of that

531

: 00:21:54

kind of thinking how we, we built like

those two kind of menus where it's

532

: 00:21:58

just like a separate menu altogether.

533

: 00:22:01

Randall Stevens: yeah, I think,

534

: 00:22:01

Benjamin Guler: you go.

535

: 00:22:02

We have it.

536

: 00:22:02

Model concrete,

537

: 00:22:03

Randall Stevens: I think people will

give you infinite amount of time if

538

: 00:22:08

they got that first hit of value.

539

: 00:22:11

Because then they will they

will stay in here forever,

540

: 00:22:14

maybe longer than they should.

541

: 00:22:15

Right.

542

: 00:22:15

Um,

543

: 00:22:16

Evan Troxel: I was gonna

544

: 00:22:16

say, I was gonna say dopamine, uh,

uh, you said hit of value, but hit

545

: 00:22:20

of dopamine is what I was thinking.

546

: 00:22:21

It's just as, as somebody who is

literally addicted to creating images

547

: 00:22:25

of architecture.

548

: 00:22:26

Right.

549

: 00:22:27

Uh, this is, this is feeding that, that

addiction in a, in a very interesting way.

550

: 00:22:34

Benjamin Guler: right.

551

: 00:22:34

So I'll, I'll just, uh, let

me reframe this a little bit.

552

: 00:22:38

Just gonna move it ever so slightly this

553

: 00:22:40

Randall Stevens: very cool.

554

: 00:22:40

Benjamin Guler: you go.

555

: 00:22:43

Yeah.

556

: 00:22:43

I'm, I'm giggling out here

even just by, by this project.

557

: 00:22:46

Like I, I, I'm lucky the concrete look.

558

: 00:22:47

Let's get a few more of 'em.

559

: 00:22:49

Evan Troxel: So, yeah, this is,

this is what it's like being on

560

: 00:22:51

a Zoom call with you, Ben, right?

561

: 00:22:52

Like we're, we're, we're

supposed to be talking

562

: 00:22:54

about this, but you're

doing that on the side.

563

: 00:22:56

You're, you're not distracted by

564

: 00:22:58

Benjamin Guler: a little bit.

565

: 00:22:58

Evan Troxel: You, you're

not distracted by email.

566

: 00:23:00

You're, you're

567

: 00:23:01

actually doing

568

: 00:23:01

rendering.

569

: 00:23:03

Benjamin Guler: Yeah.

570

: 00:23:04

Yeah.

571

: 00:23:04

Randall Stevens: So

572

: 00:23:05

what, uh, Ben, can you, uh.

573

: 00:23:08

Can, like how many images are

people creating when they're like

574

: 00:23:12

working on a project like this?

575

: 00:23:13

Do you have any stats on like they

create 10 variations or a thousand

576

: 00:23:17

variations, or what does that look like?

577

: 00:23:20

Benjamin Guler: Yeah.

578

: 00:23:21

So, uh, we do have optional

analytics, uh, that, that we

579

: 00:23:24

do collect, that kind of stuff.

580

: 00:23:25

Uh, we don't collect the images

or we don't train on the images.

581

: 00:23:28

That's a lot.

582

: 00:23:29

Those questions come up a lot.

583

: 00:23:30

Sorry, I'm gonna get to the answer.

584

: 00:23:32

Uh, but in the same vein, like these are

just things in my memory that come up.

585

: 00:23:36

Um, but

586

: 00:23:38

like what we've observed is like,

people like to stay within like one

587

: 00:23:41

shot and just explore with that,

like a hundred images or 200 images.

588

: 00:23:44

Uh, it was more, more images kind

of in the very beginning because the

589

: 00:23:48

quality wasn't that great and every

like 20th one was a really good one.

590

: 00:23:51

So then you're like just going there.

591

: 00:23:53

'cause like I want that good one.

592

: 00:23:54

But now almost every rendition

is, is pretty decent.

593

: 00:23:57

So that number kind of came down a bit.

594

: 00:23:59

Um.

595

: 00:24:00

But, uh, yeah, like we have a few

different, like we have our forums and

596

: 00:24:03

we see some people how their process is.

597

: 00:24:05

Some people render like the scene

without any objects 'cause they want

598

: 00:24:08

like a baseline and then they wanna

build on that, okay, I just want

599

: 00:24:11

my ceiling and like, no furniture

for an interior scene, let's say.

600

: 00:24:13

And then you build on that your furniture,

you, you build other the pieces and then

601

: 00:24:17

you have control of all the layers if

you wanted to, uh, to kind of just keep

602

: 00:24:21

different parts and different pieces.

603

: 00:24:22

And that's actually we, what we

already offer already inside the

604

: 00:24:25

application, but it's kind of limited

right now, which we're expanding to.

605

: 00:24:28

But yeah, to answer the, the original

question, it's, it's, uh, quite a

606

: 00:24:32

few different images and sometimes

changing on and off, uh, different

607

: 00:24:35

kind of aspects of the, of the, of the

image and using the seed, like which

608

: 00:24:39

the seed is, uh, uh, lets you kind of

keep the same, uh, if you were to, it's

609

: 00:24:43

prescriptive, uh, it's deterministic.

610

: 00:24:44

So if you were to run into the same

scene again and you turn the seed on,

611

: 00:24:47

then it will produce the same results.

612

: 00:24:49

Uh.

613

: 00:24:50

Uh, so then if you make minor

changes, let's say you remove a door,

614

: 00:24:52

everything else will stay the same,

but you'll have that rendition of

615

: 00:24:55

the version with that door removed.

616

: 00:24:56

So if I wanted to do, for this one,

for example, uh, and I hide, I don't

617

: 00:25:00

know, part of this, uh, you could, you

could see how, uh, that will change.

618

: 00:25:06

Let's see.

619

: 00:25:06

I want to kind of hide a

significant part of the building.

620

: 00:25:09

Let's see if this could work.

621

: 00:25:11

Okay, that's probably good enough.

622

: 00:25:12

So I'll, I'll, I'll leave the same, uh,

um, seat here and then I'll, I'll, I'll

623

: 00:25:18

render it one more time without, uh, okay.

624

: 00:25:20

So I'll use this one actually.

625

: 00:25:22

Okay.

626

: 00:25:22

There you go.

627

: 00:25:24

So, I mean, it's gonna take

a second to render, but yeah.

628

: 00:25:27

So the, the original question, like,

I think people like explore and try

629

: 00:25:30

different, uh, um, kind of renditions to

get kind of that design and then they kind

630

: 00:25:34

of finesse, uh, in like, let's say you

like most of the image, then you render

631

: 00:25:38

more different parts of that, that image.

632

: 00:25:40

So.

633

: 00:25:41

Yeah,

634

: 00:25:41

Evan Troxel: So when it came to you

designing this tool, this application,

635

: 00:25:46

uh, as, and it, it, it looks the

same no matter what tool you're

636

: 00:25:50

using as kind of the host, right?

637

: 00:25:52

It's like you see the same

presets on the, on the side.

638

: 00:25:55

You see the same row of

imagery across the bottom.

639

: 00:25:59

Maybe take us through the layout

of this and, and why you decided to

640

: 00:26:03

do it the way that you did as, as

641

: 00:26:05

you developed the app.

642

: 00:26:07

Benjamin Guler: sure.

643

: 00:26:08

So a bit of a background.

644

: 00:26:09

My, my background is

also from architecture.

645

: 00:26:12

I went to school for that and

um, I actually schedule was the

646

: 00:26:15

first application I learned.

647

: 00:26:17

Uh, then I learned Rhino and

then, uh, when I got hired to

648

: 00:26:21

work in the firm, I learned Revit.

649

: 00:26:23

So, uh, that's kinda was my journey.

650

: 00:26:25

Uh, but throughout that, even in school,

like I was, uh, always, uh, excited

651

: 00:26:29

about renditions and like I always

got a better CPU to be able to render.

652

: 00:26:34

Uh, you know, I.

653

: 00:26:36

High resolutions just for presentations.

654

: 00:26:38

So that was always a, a thing

that I was really drawn to.

655

: 00:26:41

Uh, and so as a, in my, uh, career, uh,

when I was kind of more in that architect

656

: 00:26:46

role, I would, uh, you know, produce

a lot of visualizations and do that.

657

: 00:26:51

So I've used tools like Lightroom,

I've used Photoshop a lot, and all

658

: 00:26:55

those elements kind of, I think

affected kind of the layout of this.

659

: 00:26:58

So if you look at the bottom

RI room, that's totally,

660

: 00:27:00

uh, affected by light room.

661

: 00:27:01

Like light room,

662

: 00:27:03

you can see it.

663

: 00:27:03

Yeah.

664

: 00:27:04

Evan Troxel: Yep.

665

: 00:27:04

Benjamin Guler: So, uh,

that, that's how that works.

666

: 00:27:07

Uh, the Photoshop side is kind of

something that we're actually bringing

667

: 00:27:11

in, but we have kind of, part of it

is we're about to release this week

668

: 00:27:14

is just the layer system where you

want to build your image and you kind

669

: 00:27:17

of like, you know, this part of the

image and not this part of the image.

670

: 00:27:20

So, for example, we

could do that even now.

671

: 00:27:22

This is a, uh, let's say if we added, uh,

let's say, I'm just gonna make this part

672

: 00:27:26

something ridiculous, like some kind of

maybe red material for the sake of, it

673

: 00:27:32

might just call it red or something red.

674

: 00:27:37

Okay.

675

: 00:27:38

And you'll see that, um, you know,

you could, you layer your composition

676

: 00:27:42

when you get to that design.

677

: 00:27:43

So those kind of elements and those

tools that I've used in the past, uh,

678

: 00:27:47

and other people in our, in our, in our

team used in the past kind of start to

679

: 00:27:50

find their, their way into, into how the

application, the interface is, is built.

680

: 00:27:55

Um, so yeah, so if I go over it a little

bit, we have these three tabs at the top.

681

: 00:27:58

The first one's kind of like that

onboard, like almost, uh, beginner,

682

: 00:28:04

like you're, you're learning it.

683

: 00:28:05

But we didn't want to just keep it for

the, for the beginner because like I

684

: 00:28:08

go back to it, like when I wanna try

something very, like a quick start.

685

: 00:28:11

So we didn't wanna make it just, you

know, wanted to have more use out of it.

686

: 00:28:15

So it's very simple.

687

: 00:28:16

You're not inundated with any, you

know, any dials or any, any sliders.

688

: 00:28:21

Then compose the ideas that, okay, you

are taking kind of ownership of this,

689

: 00:28:25

this, this design and you know what you

want, you know, the materials you want

690

: 00:28:28

so you can start to explore a bit more.

691

: 00:28:29

Um.

692

: 00:28:30

Uh, more restricted, you kind of with

certain materiality and then refine

693

: 00:28:35

is, okay, I'm set with this view.

694

: 00:28:36

I like most of it, but I

wanna start to change it.

695

: 00:28:38

So this is where you can't

change the resolution anymore.

696

: 00:28:40

You're actually, this is like your

Photoshop mode where you're getting

697

: 00:28:43

in there and you're kind of making

slide changes in here and everything

698

: 00:28:46

that we're adding to this kind of tab.

699

: 00:28:48

And there's a lot of things that

are, is coming, is kind of geared

700

: 00:28:51

towards that, where it's helping

with, with getting that design, uh,

701

: 00:28:56

much closer to what your vision is.

702

: 00:28:58

So, and then at the bottom

703

: 00:29:00

Evan Troxel: the

704

: 00:29:00

Benjamin Guler: have,

705

: 00:29:01

yeah,

706

: 00:29:01

Evan Troxel: oh, just just before you

go on here, I think one of the things

707

: 00:29:03

that, that really stands out to me is

that this tool is based on workflows.

708

: 00:29:09

Of an architect.

709

: 00:29:10

Right?

710

: 00:29:10

And, and one of the things that I think

we've all struggled with in the past with

711

: 00:29:14

Renderers is it produces one image or, or

an animation at a time, and then it's kind

712

: 00:29:20

of left up to you and your folder layout,

713

: 00:29:24

folder structure on your

714

: 00:29:25

drive

715

: 00:29:26

to kind of flip, flip between images.

716

: 00:29:29

And that's where Lightroom or Photoshop

kind of changed the game, right?

717

: 00:29:32

Because they're really workflow based

tools and, and rendering is a workflow,

718

: 00:29:38

so it gives you the tools you need

when you're in that mode of working.

719

: 00:29:42

I think that makes a lot of sense to

kind of think about the end user as

720

: 00:29:46

a developer and what they're doing

in this process and what tools they

721

: 00:29:50

need at their fingertips right then.

722

: 00:29:52

And, and that you're, you're pulling that

off here because when I'm ideating, I

723

: 00:29:57

want to look at all the

724

: 00:29:58

snapshots and I want to

725

: 00:29:59

flip back and forth and see what I like

about this one, what I don't like about

726

: 00:30:02

this one, because that's gonna help me

craft the next prompt for the next one.

727

: 00:30:06

Potentially or refine an area.

728

: 00:30:08

And all of those have to do with

my workflow, uh, because that's

729

: 00:30:12

the mode I'm in when I'm doing

730

: 00:30:13

this kind of thing.

731

: 00:30:15

Benjamin Guler: exactly.

732

: 00:30:16

That's you could, you

said it better than me,

733

: 00:30:19

so, yeah,

734

: 00:30:21

Evan Troxel: This episode is made

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735

: 00:30:25

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736

: 00:30:28

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737

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740

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741

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742

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743

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744

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745

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746

: 00:31:15

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code RES24 at checkout to

747

: 00:31:21

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748

: 00:31:23

Thanks to Chaos Enscape so much

for their support of this episode.

749

: 00:31:27

And now let's get back

to the conversation.

750

: 00:31:31

Benjamin Guler: yeah.

751

: 00:31:31

You start like lower, like big, broad, uh.

752

: 00:31:35

A big, large gamut.

753

: 00:31:36

It's like, I don't know,

754

: 00:31:38

like, I wanna try 10 things and, uh, and

then, okay, I like one of those 10 things.

755

: 00:31:42

Okay, now let's try, you know,

10 variation variations of that.

756

: 00:31:45

Okay, I like this variation.

757

: 00:31:46

Let's make this the real thing.

758

: 00:31:48

So that's kind of the

Exactly, that's the process.

759

: 00:31:50

Evan Troxel: It's just like architecture.

760

: 00:31:51

You start way back and then you zoom

in, and then you zoom out, and then

761

: 00:31:55

you zoom in and then at some point you

decide, okay, this is the direction

762

: 00:31:59

and we're gonna zoom in more and more

and refine and refine and refine.

763

: 00:32:02

And it makes a lot of sense for the

actual user who's using this application,

764

: 00:32:06

I think, because it, it feels pretty

765

: 00:32:08

natural then at that point.

766

: 00:32:10

Benjamin Guler: It's also

like diffusion the noises.

767

: 00:32:12

And the noises.

768

: 00:32:13

Evan Troxel: Hmm.

769

: 00:32:14

Benjamin Guler: I had to do that.

770

: 00:32:15

Add that in there.

771

: 00:32:16

It gets clear, the image gets

clear and clear and clear, uh,

772

: 00:32:19

to, to what it needs to be.

773

: 00:32:20

So, yeah.

774

: 00:32:21

Mm-hmm.

775

: 00:32:22

Randall Stevens: So the, been the, uh,

this ability to mask and layer and build

776

: 00:32:27

that up, uh, it sounds like that's close.

777

: 00:32:29

Uh, was that, uh, driven

by a user request?

778

: 00:32:34

Uh, how, how did that feature,

how did y'all decide that that

779

: 00:32:37

should be what, what you do next?

780

: 00:32:40

Benjamin Guler: Yeah, there's quite a

few different examples of how, uh, even

781

: 00:32:43

personal examples, like I would take from

five images and I would go and Photoshop

782

: 00:32:46

and, and you know, get elements from

each one that's coming, essentially.

783

: 00:32:49

So you just don't have to leave

the application to get that.

784

: 00:32:51

Let's say you have five or these

three images and you like part of

785

: 00:32:56

one, but not part of the other one.

786

: 00:32:57

I want to just blend the two and I

want to keep the parts that I like.

787

: 00:33:00

And then in Photoshop, you know,

it's kind of super powerful.

788

: 00:33:02

You can do anything you want, but

in Photoshop you have to know like,

789

: 00:33:05

okay, where you add little mask,

the, you know, the feather of the

790

: 00:33:08

mask and where, where it is in the,

in the channels, the alpha channel.

791

: 00:33:11

So you have to do all that, and you have

to kind of know how those things are.

792

: 00:33:13

And our interface's

just, you know, simple.

793

: 00:33:15

It's like, okay, you know what you want?

794

: 00:33:16

You want to combine these two

images, there's just two buttons

795

: 00:33:19

and you don't have to learn that.

796

: 00:33:20

Um, so we've seen that actually

with a lot of our end users,

797

: 00:33:24

users already doing that.

798

: 00:33:25

Like they're, they're taking their

images and they're, they're going to,

799

: 00:33:28

to Photoshop it and doing that, so.

800

: 00:33:29

Okay.

801

: 00:33:29

It makes sense.

802

: 00:33:30

Okay.

803

: 00:33:30

It seems like this is something that, that

you're doing, let's just add it in there.

804

: 00:33:34

Uh, so, and also personal,

personal experience too.

805

: 00:33:37

Like, I, I think I've done that, uh,

quite a few times and I think there's

806

: 00:33:40

a third one, but I'm, I'm forgetting

there's a third example on that.

807

: 00:33:44

Randall Stevens: Are are, are you

able, uh, and I'm not as familiar with

808

: 00:33:47

this, with this tech bin, but are you

able to separate material choices from

809

: 00:33:53

lighting and say, I want that material,

but it needs to now be consistent?

810

: 00:33:57

'cause that, you know, Photoshop,

that was always the challenge was,

811

: 00:34:00

you know, you could end up with mixed

lighting and, you know, yeah, you could

812

: 00:34:04

collage stuff together, but, um, are

you able to control those separately

813

: 00:34:08

and then use those as separate

passes or separate inputs, I guess.

814

: 00:34:13

Benjamin Guler: Yes, we could, we

could do that in the live version

815

: 00:34:15

that we have right now, we don't have

that, but, uh, not so much on the

816

: 00:34:19

lighting side, but the material side.

817

: 00:34:21

Uh, definitely on the material side,

the different maps and channels that

818

: 00:34:25

you could have for all the different

materials that are present in the

819

: 00:34:26

scene, that's, uh, something that,

uh, is actually, uh, very, uh, man, we

820

: 00:34:32

could manipulate that a lot actually.

821

: 00:34:33

And that's very powerful.

822

: 00:34:35

Randall Stevens: Yeah, I was just

noticing even as you flip through

823

: 00:34:37

those, the, you know, the lighting,

the where shadows were were different.

824

: 00:34:41

So if, if all of a sudden in one part of

the image you said, I really like this, I.

825

: 00:34:45

But maybe what you really like is

the material choices or the way that

826

: 00:34:48

that was affected.

827

: 00:34:49

Can you, can you end up re basically

re rendering, holding the material

828

: 00:34:54

there and changing it over here with

consistent lighting and those things.

829

: 00:34:57

It

830

: 00:34:57

seemed like natural

831

: 00:34:58

evolution of this would be that

832

: 00:35:00

kind of granularity.

833

: 00:35:00

I.

834

: 00:35:01

Benjamin Guler: Yeah.

835

: 00:35:02

So with, with the lighting, if

you wanted, like if it's uh, you

836

: 00:35:06

know, overcast, that's kind of

nice 'cause then it just blends in.

837

: 00:35:09

So if you're kind of have that

part of your prompt, then you don't

838

: 00:35:11

have to worry so much about it.

839

: 00:35:12

But if it's direct lighting, then

that's also something that, something

840

: 00:35:14

that we've seen other users do

because of the, uh, the base.

841

: 00:35:18

You have actually have the shadows

that had shadows and you know,

842

: 00:35:20

you have to include in the prompt

what that means, what those,

843

: 00:35:22

you know, what is that geometry?

844

: 00:35:23

Is that the carpet changing its color or

is it actually a shadow of the carpet?

845

: 00:35:28

So you kinda have to add them the prompt.

846

: 00:35:29

That's what we've seen.

847

: 00:35:30

And per that, you could then, you know.

848

: 00:35:33

Allow the engine to, okay, understand

it's the same material, but you're

849

: 00:35:36

kind of rendering the shadow.

850

: 00:35:37

So then you can have consistent views.

851

: 00:35:39

Let's say if you have like a sun

through a window, uh, coming through

852

: 00:35:41

and you, you, you want it to render

just different materials, but you still

853

: 00:35:44

want the same shadow in the same spot

that we, we've seen success in that.

854

: 00:35:49

So

855

: 00:35:49

Evan Troxel: One of the, one of the

benefits that you mentioned there

856

: 00:35:52

is just not having to learn another

tool or know another tool to the

857

: 00:35:56

level of expertise that you needed.

858

: 00:35:57

Are there additional benefits to you

doing all of this in Veras, like giving

859

: 00:36:02

those abilities to a user, like like

blending, like you mentioned, feathering

860

: 00:36:07

and masking and all those things.

861

: 00:36:09

Are those things being taken care of

then by Veras at a, at a, at a pretty

862

: 00:36:13

nice level to So where I, I feel like I'm

gonna be pretty happy with the outcome

863

: 00:36:17

without knowing the depths of Photoshop

to get those kinds of results if I

864

: 00:36:22

had to do it manually.

865

: 00:36:24

Benjamin Guler: yeah, I actually

changed, uh, the dev version here.

866

: 00:36:28

Uh, but that's exactly what

we're working on, uh, this week.

867

: 00:36:31

I think I could show you a GIF though.

868

: 00:36:32

It's really cool.

869

: 00:36:33

I wonder if we, we recorded that gif.

870

: 00:36:36

Uh, let's see.

871

: 00:36:38

But yes, yes.

872

: 00:36:39

The answer is yes.

873

: 00:36:40

Uh, I don't know if I

have a visual for it yet.

874

: 00:36:41

Again, this will be probably released

by the time, uh, this, this airs.

875

: 00:36:45

Uh, let's see.

876

: 00:36:46

I think I have maybe this one.

877

: 00:36:51

Okay.

878

: 00:36:51

I'll show you this one.

879

: 00:36:52

It's a bit, uh, early, so it's

a, you have to forgive it.

880

: 00:36:56

cause I think it's really fun to,

to look at and it's really, uh,

881

: 00:36:59

interesting how it, how it blends things.

882

: 00:37:01

And that's exactly, uh, what you want.

883

: 00:37:03

Let's say you want to, um, talking

about lighting, let's say you want it

884

: 00:37:07

to just change the sky to something

that's very different the way you

885

: 00:37:09

would want to blend that matters.

886

: 00:37:11

Like, you really wanna,

887

: 00:37:13

you don't wanna,

888

: 00:37:13

Evan Troxel: the, the, building, right?

889

: 00:37:14

It's not just the sky,

it's, it's the lighting,

890

: 00:37:17

it's the shadows, it's everything.

891

: 00:37:19

Benjamin Guler: Right.

892

: 00:37:20

So here I will do something a little

bit scary, but I think it's gonna work.

893

: 00:37:23

So this is gonna get reset

for a second here, but I will

894

: 00:37:27

share my screen in a second.

895

: 00:37:29

It's pretty neat.

896

: 00:37:30

Okay.

897

: 00:37:30

Here, sharing screen and

let's see here, our screen.

898

: 00:37:37

Alright, cool.

899

: 00:37:38

So I'm going to just render this

once and then I'll go to the,

900

: 00:37:44

uh, the mask, uh, to, to show you

guys, uh, how, how that will work.

901

: 00:37:49

Again, this is without the

layer system, uh, built in yet.

902

: 00:37:51

So it's, it's all the backend is

already, it's just the UI is not ready.

903

: 00:37:56

So it's, that's kind of

the, the cadence there.

904

: 00:37:59

Uh, so let's see here.

905

: 00:38:00

Uh, this will take a second here.

906

: 00:38:02

Okay, so let's say that, uh,

okay, let's say I wanted to change

907

: 00:38:06

the, uh, the sky, let's say.

908

: 00:38:08

So if we added this and we just say.

909

: 00:38:12

I'll kind of eat into it, and

you could actually kind of draw

910

: 00:38:14

here if you drag and click.

911

: 00:38:16

So I'll just leave it there.

912

: 00:38:18

And that's a pretty, you

know, funky mask there.

913

: 00:38:20

Let's just say, uh, night sky.

914

: 00:38:23

All right, let's see what we get here.

915

: 00:38:24

And I'll render that.

916

: 00:38:25

And right now I didn't enable that, that

mask to be kind of feathered properly.

917

: 00:38:31

So you'll see, you'll see what

I mean, uh, when it, when it

918

: 00:38:35

renders, uh, what the issue is.

919

: 00:38:36

But we have this kind of currently

in the, okay, there it is.

920

: 00:38:40

So pretty, pretty rough, uh, there.

921

: 00:38:45

But we have this, uh, kind of

feather where we could start

922

: 00:38:47

to kind of feather that in.

923

: 00:38:48

You can see here, like I

could go all the way to

924

: 00:38:50

a hundred, but again, it's, it's early on.

925

: 00:38:53

So this is getting there.

926

: 00:38:55

But you can see here like

how, how you want it to.

927

: 00:38:56

Just further that ever so slightly

that it looks like part of, so if I

928

: 00:39:00

go back and forth, it looks a bit more

929

: 00:39:02

correct.

930

: 00:39:03

Randall Stevens: Makes

931

: 00:39:03

sense.

932

: 00:39:04

Benjamin Guler: yeah.

933

: 00:39:04

We could go here and actually

keep a constant thing.

934

: 00:39:07

Let's see here.

935

: 00:39:07

So if I do this, say just red

or red, seems to give some

936

: 00:39:14

interesting results sometimes.

937

: 00:39:15

Like red architecture.

938

: 00:39:17

Yeah, it's pretty decent.

939

: 00:39:18

Right now we're like around 15 seconds

per render and at 10 24 by 10 24.

940

: 00:39:24

And we're looking at, um,

getting that even, even faster.

941

: 00:39:27

A lot faster.

942

: 00:39:28

It looks like I didn't do it, but

um, so if I look at this one, uh,

943

: 00:39:33

actually, let me go back to this one.

944

: 00:39:35

Yeah.

945

: 00:39:36

So if I want to have a hard edge and

then if I go all the way down, you

946

: 00:39:38

could see that that's kind of exactly

what that selection was versus kind

947

: 00:39:42

of blend, blending it a little bit.

948

: 00:39:44

Cool.

949

: 00:39:44

Yeah, that's a lot of fun.

950

: 00:39:45

Having fun all the time, like

playing with it, trying different.

951

: 00:39:49

Uh, prompts and, and, and,

uh, uh, exploring different

952

: 00:39:52

projects, interiors, exteriors.

953

: 00:39:55

Evan Troxel: I've seen

some incredible interior.

954

: 00:39:57

Renderings.

955

: 00:39:58

Uh, I think you just posted on LinkedIn,

you reposted somebody's post a day or

956

: 00:40:01

two ago where they had never used a tool

like this and they were just playing

957

: 00:40:07

around with, in some interiors of, I

958

: 00:40:09

think it was like a living room.

959

: 00:40:11

And it was like, and they, they were

just completely blown away by what they

960

: 00:40:15

were able to co-produce with a tool like

this in such a short amount of time.

961

: 00:40:19

And I think that's what's so exciting

about this for people who try it out,

962

: 00:40:23

who are willing to put in a little

bit, I mean, it's literally like the

963

: 00:40:26

least amount of effort you could do

964

: 00:40:28

to get renderings right?

965

: 00:40:29

and

966

: 00:40:30

and decent really,

really decent renderings.

967

: 00:40:32

And, And, then therefore a direction,

uh, you know, a pot, a potential

968

: 00:40:37

emotional response, which then says,

yes, that's the right direction.

969

: 00:40:40

Let's go that direction.

970

: 00:40:41

It's pretty

971

: 00:40:42

incredible.

972

: 00:40:43

Benjamin Guler: Yeah, so I'm playing

just with this kind of cabin interior

973

: 00:40:46

here, uh, chair, you know, wood

ceiling, but I'm using a prompt

974

: 00:40:51

that's probably not the right one.

975

: 00:40:52

So let's say we started to change

it to something that's more.

976

: 00:40:56

Also, we have this, um, I'll

change the prompt soon, but we

977

: 00:40:59

have this kind of slider here.

978

: 00:41:00

So if you really want it to stay closer

to the geometry that you have in your, uh,

979

: 00:41:04

model, you have this geometry of a ride.

980

: 00:41:06

If you go all the way out, it

will really start to, you know,

981

: 00:41:08

introduce other elements and go

a little bit more exploratory.

982

: 00:41:12

Uh, and then we also have the material

override, which tries to keep, you

983

: 00:41:15

know, the, when it sketch up here tries

to keep those sketch up materials.

984

: 00:41:18

Um, but yeah, let's, let's say if we,

the issue with the, with the material

985

: 00:41:22

override is just, it doesn't, um, I.

986

: 00:41:24

The ketchup materials are not that great.

987

: 00:41:26

So the more it blends with that, the,

you know, but we're working on that,

988

: 00:41:29

the, the less interesting it looks.

989

: 00:41:31

Um, but yeah, let's say if I made this

one, uh, let's say, uh, wood walls,

990

: 00:41:35

wood walls, uh, wood ceiling, and then

we'll leave everything else to save.

991

: 00:41:42

Um, but yeah, I think, I think

that's one, one thing that we've

992

: 00:41:45

seen a lot too with frontiers.

993

: 00:41:46

'cause interiors are usually hard,

especially in traditional rendering

994

: 00:41:50

because you have global illumination

that affects so many different services

995

: 00:41:53

and the way blends, like, were really

good to pick up those inaccuracies.

996

: 00:41:56

Uh, whereas exteriors is a lot of times

easier because it's like, you know, it's

997

: 00:42:01

strong lit, you know, or, or hard lighting

from sun, or even if it's soft lighting,

998

: 00:42:05

like just the way you, you know, in

traditional rendering, it's a bit easier

999

: 00:42:09

to get to, to, to a good result there.

: 1000

00:42:11,134 --> 00:42:15,274

Whereas interiors have all these, you

know, subtle reflections and so many

: 1001

00:42:15,274 --> 00:42:17,404

different, uh, um, material interactions.

: 1002

00:42:17,704 --> 00:42:22,744

That start to, uh, you know, in

traditional method is, is, is challenging.

: 1003

00:42:22,774 --> 00:42:25,925

You have to be really good at

and, and learn that process and,

: 1004

00:42:25,954 --> 00:42:29,164

and, and craft that art, uh, to be

produce, produce decent results.

: 1005

00:42:29,782 --> 00:42:32,992

Evan Troxel: What's the most kind of

valuable feedback if you had to, you

: 1006

00:42:32,992 --> 00:42:37,282

know, pick one or a top three of from

users as you've gone through this process?

: 1007

00:42:37,282 --> 00:42:39,922

Because it sounds like, I mean,

this, this tool has just been

: 1008

00:42:39,922 --> 00:42:40,792

out for a little more than a

: 1009

00:42:40,792 --> 00:42:45,082

year at this point in being

used by people, and obviously

: 1010

00:42:45,087 --> 00:42:47,182

you're developing very quickly.

: 1011

00:42:47,182 --> 00:42:51,922

It seems like I, I'm seeing you,

you're available on a new platform.

: 1012

00:42:52,102 --> 00:42:56,812

You've got selective replacements, you've

got, you know, this new layering system.

: 1013

00:42:56,812 --> 00:43:00,832

You've got all of this stuff that

the geometry, you know, adhering

: 1014

00:43:00,837 --> 00:43:02,242

to the geometry versus not.

: 1015

00:43:02,247 --> 00:43:05,422

These are all things that have kind

of shown up over the last year.

: 1016

00:43:06,142 --> 00:43:08,542

What was a really valuable

piece of feedback that you got?

: 1017

00:43:09,012 --> 00:43:12,792

Along that path that that really

kind of maybe even changed how

: 1018

00:43:12,792 --> 00:43:15,462

you thought about the direction

that the development was gonna go.

: 1019

00:43:15,824 --> 00:43:17,474

Benjamin Guler: I had like an

answer for the first part, and

: 1020

00:43:17,474 --> 00:43:18,464

I'm not sure if I have a sentence.

: 1021

00:43:18,614 --> 00:43:19,904

Let me, let me come up

with the second answer.

: 1022

00:43:19,904 --> 00:43:23,774

But for the first one, I think the biggest

valuable feedback which we're working on,

: 1023

00:43:24,134 --> 00:43:29,234

uh, even with our layer system is just,

uh, having control over the materials.

: 1024

00:43:29,264 --> 00:43:32,264

Like having more control with

the materials and, and let's say

: 1025

00:43:32,264 --> 00:43:35,084

if I want that to be wood, what

color would, should that be?

: 1026

00:43:35,624 --> 00:43:40,094

Uh, specifically, so kind of getting

a bit more another level of finesse,

: 1027

00:43:40,124 --> 00:43:44,204

like, I want this product specifically,

and so it comes in these three colors.

: 1028

00:43:44,324 --> 00:43:46,634

Now there could be slight

variations because of lighting.

: 1029

00:43:46,694 --> 00:43:50,774

We will always kinda change the diffuse

color of that, but that's something that's

: 1030

00:43:50,834 --> 00:43:54,824

very evident that we, we see a lot of

times like, can we keep that material?

: 1031

00:43:55,159 --> 00:43:56,959

Uh, um, you know, more finesse.

: 1032

00:43:56,959 --> 00:44:01,399

And then I guess, uh, uh, another

comment on that one is, uh, being able

: 1033

00:44:01,399 --> 00:44:05,569

to reproduce the same image more than

once, which is kind of making it be

: 1034

00:44:05,569 --> 00:44:07,429

used more as a traditional render.

: 1035

00:44:07,609 --> 00:44:11,869

So if I wanted to change the angle ever so

slightly, can I produce almost identical?

: 1036

00:44:11,869 --> 00:44:14,869

And that's also something that we're,

we're working on to get, get that better.

: 1037

00:44:15,289 --> 00:44:17,179

Um, something that

changed the development.

: 1038

00:44:17,989 --> 00:44:19,579

Uh, I'm trying to think.

: 1039

00:44:20,869 --> 00:44:24,979

I think, I dunno if I have a specific

one, but a lot of them along the way have

: 1040

00:44:25,099 --> 00:44:26,479

altered the development of the process.

: 1041

00:44:26,479 --> 00:44:27,859

Like from feedback that we've seen.

: 1042

00:44:28,189 --> 00:44:30,469

Uh, we watch, you know,

social media a lot.

: 1043

00:44:30,474 --> 00:44:32,534

We see people that are posting

on LinkedIn and, and, and,

: 1044

00:44:32,534 --> 00:44:34,009

and Instagram and our forums.

: 1045

00:44:34,009 --> 00:44:37,369

And so, uh, like we didn't think, I

think one time, like we didn't have

: 1046

00:44:37,369 --> 00:44:40,819

like, portrait to be able to render

like decent portrait aspect ratios.

: 1047

00:44:41,089 --> 00:44:42,139

So that was something, okay, yeah.

: 1048

00:44:42,144 --> 00:44:43,459

That's something easy we could do.

: 1049

00:44:43,459 --> 00:44:45,709

And um, so we added that.

: 1050

00:44:46,009 --> 00:44:49,159

Uh, but yeah, that's, I think a lot

of smaller thing, you know, kind of

: 1051

00:44:49,159 --> 00:44:51,259

decisions that were made that were, uh.

: 1052

00:44:51,949 --> 00:44:54,694

That started to craft the application

more and more towards, you know,

: 1053

00:44:54,834 --> 00:44:56,254

how, how people are using it.

: 1054

00:44:58,054 --> 00:45:00,814

Evan Troxel: Can you talk about kind

of the, because this, this operates

: 1055

00:45:00,814 --> 00:45:02,374

very differently than a traditional

: 1056

00:45:02,374 --> 00:45:03,844

CPU or GPU based

: 1057

00:45:03,844 --> 00:45:04,414

renderer where it's

: 1058

00:45:04,414 --> 00:45:06,964

happening locally on the

hardware that I have, right.

: 1059

00:45:06,964 --> 00:45:11,314

Versus this, where it's sending a

prompt out, there's an exchange of

: 1060

00:45:11,554 --> 00:45:16,054

information happening, um, with the,

the model that you're using and the

: 1061

00:45:16,054 --> 00:45:17,854

base image that I'm sending to it.

: 1062

00:45:19,114 --> 00:45:23,344

Talk about like what that, what that's

been like for you because the, this

: 1063

00:45:23,344 --> 00:45:27,004

is very different than the traditional

sense of like, what I need on my end

: 1064

00:45:27,004 --> 00:45:31,084

to do a rendering versus a, a tool

like this and, and how you guys have

: 1065

00:45:31,114 --> 00:45:35,614

kind of navigated that because this

is, this is a new paradigm when it

: 1066

00:45:35,614 --> 00:45:38,284

comes to delivering images based on

: 1067

00:45:38,404 --> 00:45:39,034

my model.

: 1068

00:45:40,364 --> 00:45:40,744

Benjamin Guler: for sure.

: 1069

00:45:40,774 --> 00:45:41,064

Yeah.

: 1070

00:45:41,244 --> 00:45:41,464

So.

: 1071

00:45:42,529 --> 00:45:45,619

The way it's set up is it's

cloud-based, the processing.

: 1072

00:45:45,679 --> 00:45:49,009

So, you know, your model

stays on your machine.

: 1073

00:45:49,009 --> 00:45:53,299

It doesn't use your CPU or GPU,

uh, on your local machine, but

: 1074

00:45:53,299 --> 00:45:54,559

it gets in up to the cloud.

: 1075

00:45:54,619 --> 00:45:57,259

We render it in our GPU

instances, and then we send it

: 1076

00:45:57,259 --> 00:45:58,879

back to your, uh, local machine.

: 1077

00:45:59,539 --> 00:46:02,359

Uh, so that's kind of the,

the main setup for this.

: 1078

00:46:02,569 --> 00:46:05,449

Now we do have, uh, enterprise

clients that want to use this for

: 1079

00:46:05,449 --> 00:46:08,419

more sensitive projects, and they

just don't want to have a connection

: 1080

00:46:08,424 --> 00:46:09,439

to the internet while using it.

: 1081

00:46:09,559 --> 00:46:12,229

And so we are working on

a, a local deployment.

: 1082

00:46:12,229 --> 00:46:15,619

So then if, you know, if you have server

racks and you're your, uh, a company that

: 1083

00:46:15,624 --> 00:46:20,389

has a few different, uh, GPUs that could

power it, then uh, that's also something

: 1084

00:46:20,389 --> 00:46:22,759

that we've, we're working with a few

different, actually, companies that,

: 1085

00:46:22,879 --> 00:46:24,709

uh, wanna have that local deployment.

: 1086

00:46:25,129 --> 00:46:29,419

So what's nice about that is that,

you know, those companies that kind of

: 1087

00:46:29,424 --> 00:46:34,339

need that sensitivity to, to explore

is behind their kind of, you know, um,

: 1088

00:46:34,609 --> 00:46:37,099

intranet or their, their, uh, uh, system.

: 1089

00:46:37,489 --> 00:46:41,149

And so that their networking doesn't

kind of, you know, leave that, um.

: 1090

00:46:41,809 --> 00:46:45,859

So, yeah, that's how it's con And even

with that setup though, it's still not

: 1091

00:46:45,859 --> 00:46:48,499

on your client, it's on a local server.

: 1092

00:46:48,499 --> 00:46:52,009

So you have like a local server

system that, you know, load balances

: 1093

00:46:52,009 --> 00:46:54,439

your requests and then sends back,

you know, whoever's using it.

: 1094

00:46:54,529 --> 00:46:58,909

Um, 'cause it's really nice to not have

to have that, um, that on-prem setup.

: 1095

00:46:59,149 --> 00:46:59,389

Right.

: 1096

00:46:59,394 --> 00:47:00,259

On the client side.

: 1097

00:47:00,499 --> 00:47:04,759

'cause then it's, it's like 30

gigabytes of just data just to, for,

: 1098

00:47:04,759 --> 00:47:08,179

for one installation for example,

where you have that, uh, if you have

: 1099

00:47:08,179 --> 00:47:10,939

it on, on your GP since then it's,

you know, it's more manageable.

: 1100

00:47:10,939 --> 00:47:13,669

And then you have, you know, your

lighter clients be able to, you could

: 1101

00:47:13,669 --> 00:47:16,789

even use, you know, um, a very thin

client to, to just do anything because

: 1102

00:47:16,789 --> 00:47:19,699

it's just, you receive the images

and you interact with it that way.

: 1103

00:47:20,499 --> 00:47:23,164

Evan Troxel: I I, I don't know if you

guys have done any kind of calcs based

: 1104

00:47:23,194 --> 00:47:27,184

on that, but it seems to me like that

even is a, a, a valuable selling point

: 1105

00:47:27,184 --> 00:47:29,944

to a firm who you, everybody's got a

: 1106

00:47:29,944 --> 00:47:31,354

balance hardware spend,

: 1107

00:47:31,624 --> 00:47:31,894

you know,

: 1108

00:47:31,899 --> 00:47:34,504

capital expenses versus

this kind of thing.

: 1109

00:47:34,504 --> 00:47:38,284

And to give people, um, the

ability to have, like you said,

: 1110

00:47:38,284 --> 00:47:39,754

a really thin client, like to,

: 1111

00:47:39,759 --> 00:47:41,674

you could have an iPad potentially, right?

: 1112

00:47:41,674 --> 00:47:42,214

That, That,

: 1113

00:47:42,214 --> 00:47:45,424

you are, you you're, you're

running sketch up on your iPad.

: 1114

00:47:45,424 --> 00:47:48,304

You pull up a view and you say,

send this to, to Veras, and you get

: 1115

00:47:48,304 --> 00:47:53,254

something back and, and you're not

spending $5,000 on the highest end.

: 1116

00:47:53,854 --> 00:47:59,074

Laptop with GPU, you know, with an RTX

card, you, you've got an iPad, right?

: 1117

00:47:59,104 --> 00:48:03,784

And, and you could effectively,

you know, in front of a client be

: 1118

00:48:03,784 --> 00:48:07,954

coming up with this kind of prompt

based imagery, getting real time

: 1119

00:48:07,954 --> 00:48:09,874

feedback from anywhere in the world.

: 1120

00:48:10,264 --> 00:48:14,614

I mean, that's, that's gotta be a, an

interesting, that's gotta pique a leader's

: 1121

00:48:14,619 --> 00:48:18,334

interest when it comes to like what

they need to outfit their staff with.

: 1122

00:48:19,549 --> 00:48:19,849

Benjamin Guler: right.

: 1123

00:48:20,659 --> 00:48:22,039

Yeah, it's, it's really, it's really nice.

: 1124

00:48:22,039 --> 00:48:24,679

I mean, if you do have the resources,

you could do it and you can know,

: 1125

00:48:24,684 --> 00:48:27,769

invest in the hardware and the

commercial grade hardware that we,

: 1126

00:48:27,949 --> 00:48:29,629

we use like is pretty expensive.

: 1127

00:48:29,899 --> 00:48:31,999

So you have to be very,

uh, like committed to that.

: 1128

00:48:32,089 --> 00:48:33,169

Okay, yes, we're doing this.

: 1129

00:48:33,529 --> 00:48:36,319

We're gonna buy a few of these and

it's gonna stay in our temperature

: 1130

00:48:36,319 --> 00:48:39,589

controlled server room and, you know,

uh, everyone's gonna connect to it.

: 1131

00:48:39,859 --> 00:48:42,499

Uh, versus, yeah, like you said,

like, um, you know, if you use the

: 1132

00:48:42,499 --> 00:48:45,349

cloud instances, then it's, you

know, it's, it's very convenient

: 1133

00:48:45,649 --> 00:48:46,279

to not have to,

: 1134

00:48:46,579 --> 00:48:47,179

and, uh,

: 1135

00:48:47,539 --> 00:48:50,239

you know, have that kind of

hardware, uh, you know, locally.

: 1136

00:48:50,784 --> 00:48:51,647

Randall Stevens: do you have any stories?

: 1137

00:48:51,647 --> 00:48:55,667

Who's, you don't have to say who it was,

but who's created the, what's the number

: 1138

00:48:55,667 --> 00:48:59,627

of images that you know, somebody has

generated a single person with this?

: 1139

00:49:00,582 --> 00:49:01,377

Benjamin Guler: Uh, I don't know.

: 1140

00:49:01,377 --> 00:49:02,742

So we do collect analytics, but it's,

: 1141

00:49:03,402 --> 00:49:09,642

but it's an anonymous, so we don't know

who, which is obviously, uh, but again,

: 1142

00:49:09,642 --> 00:49:11,172

I haven't monitored that recently.

: 1143

00:49:11,172 --> 00:49:14,952

I'm sure maybe Bill or, or someone

else will know more, uh, Ben Brun.

: 1144

00:49:15,492 --> 00:49:19,152

Uh, but yeah, I think

it's, I, I'd have to check.

: 1145

00:49:19,272 --> 00:49:20,442

I think it's in the thousands.

: 1146

00:49:20,802 --> 00:49:24,072

Yeah, I think, I think per month

we get, I'm trying to think.

: 1147

00:49:24,072 --> 00:49:24,132

I.

: 1148

00:49:25,092 --> 00:49:27,222

Like half a million, maybe

renders or something like that.

: 1149

00:49:28,032 --> 00:49:28,482

It's pretty,

: 1150

00:49:28,962 --> 00:49:29,592

it's pretty fun.

: 1151

00:49:29,592 --> 00:49:29,862

Yeah.

: 1152

00:49:30,372 --> 00:49:30,612

Yeah.

: 1153

00:49:30,612 --> 00:49:34,332

So we also have our free trial too,

so people kind of explore that.

: 1154

00:49:34,392 --> 00:49:35,802

Uh, so they play with that.

: 1155

00:49:35,802 --> 00:49:39,552

So a lot of users, um, you know,

um, have fun with it that way.

: 1156

00:49:40,111 --> 00:49:40,286

Yeah,

: 1157

00:49:40,541 --> 00:49:43,386

Evan Troxel: is there anything behind

the scenes that you could maybe talk

: 1158

00:49:43,386 --> 00:49:48,366

about here when it came to how you

thought through the process of, of this?

: 1159

00:49:48,396 --> 00:49:50,466

You mentioned you might have

some mural boards or something.

: 1160

00:49:50,466 --> 00:49:53,496

I'm just wondering if, if there's anything

back there that you could show that kind

: 1161

00:49:53,496 --> 00:49:56,046

of talks about how you handle internal

: 1162

00:49:56,051 --> 00:49:56,371

development.

: 1163

00:49:58,341 --> 00:49:58,611

Benjamin Guler: yeah.

: 1164

00:49:58,611 --> 00:50:00,051

I was thinking about the beer boards.

: 1165

00:50:00,111 --> 00:50:05,571

Uh, I think more in the context maybe

of, of local deployment and that set up.

: 1166

00:50:05,571 --> 00:50:08,841

So I don't know if that is, you know,

that that interesting right now.

: 1167

00:50:08,841 --> 00:50:11,661

But essentially, like, I think I already

talked about it, like it's essentially

: 1168

00:50:11,666 --> 00:50:13,221

you have the client and then you have the,

: 1169

00:50:13,761 --> 00:50:16,221

the instances, um.

: 1170

00:50:17,436 --> 00:50:17,796

Yeah.

: 1171

00:50:18,126 --> 00:50:20,076

Dev process wise, we're,

we're a small team.

: 1172

00:50:20,196 --> 00:50:24,546

We're uh, nine, uh, we kind of,

our, our dev team is kind of

: 1173

00:50:24,546 --> 00:50:27,576

structured like a Scrum team, so

we do agile, um, we have sprints.

: 1174

00:50:27,846 --> 00:50:33,126

Um, we, uh, have internal releases

more often than, than, 'cause you

: 1175

00:50:33,131 --> 00:50:37,806

know, some of these initiatives are

a bit, uh, more, uh, uh, ambitious.

: 1176

00:50:37,806 --> 00:50:42,096

So we don't have a, we haven't had a

release, uh, a major release, actually,

: 1177

00:50:42,096 --> 00:50:44,916

no, we did, we had the vector one very

recently, so I shouldn't say that.

: 1178

00:50:45,126 --> 00:50:47,256

We had, that was, that was, that

was, we didn't have one in January.

: 1179

00:50:47,256 --> 00:50:47,616

I think.

: 1180

00:50:47,706 --> 00:50:50,136

Uh, we always have patches, so we

always kinda released a smaller patches.

: 1181

00:50:50,136 --> 00:50:52,176

I think last year we

had a lot of iterations.

: 1182

00:50:52,176 --> 00:50:56,166

Like almost every month we had

like a, a, a really big release.

: 1183

00:50:56,316 --> 00:50:59,466

Uh, right now, I think one thing

that we've worked on from the dev

: 1184

00:50:59,466 --> 00:51:03,396

side, which is a challenge, is, uh,

uh, just like working with certain

: 1185

00:51:03,396 --> 00:51:07,326

applications that, um, are a bit

harder, like harder APIs, uh, for

: 1186

00:51:07,331 --> 00:51:08,946

example, Vectorworks as a c plus plus.

: 1187

00:51:09,186 --> 00:51:10,566

So that's like something that like.

: 1188

00:51:10,851 --> 00:51:15,591

You know, is, is a harder language

to code in, and then documentation

: 1189

00:51:15,591 --> 00:51:16,971

might not be the best documentation.

: 1190

00:51:16,971 --> 00:51:19,101

So, uh, but it was, it was really great.

: 1191

00:51:19,101 --> 00:51:22,671

Like it was a very good collaboration

with, uh, with, with their team.

: 1192

00:51:23,061 --> 00:51:27,081

Um, we also have like SDK that,

sorry, I'm kind of blabbering on.

: 1193

00:51:27,081 --> 00:51:29,421

I'm just trying to think about,

uh, kinda how we're set up

: 1194

00:51:29,421 --> 00:51:30,501

and what we've done recently.

: 1195

00:51:30,921 --> 00:51:36,111

Uh, where we, with our SDK, we actually

implement Veras as a separate application

: 1196

00:51:36,111 --> 00:51:37,521

within your web app, web application.

: 1197

00:51:37,551 --> 00:51:40,161

We're working with, with a few

different, um, parties that

: 1198

00:51:40,161 --> 00:51:44,361

built their own, uh, formal like

application that they use internally.

: 1199

00:51:44,481 --> 00:51:48,231

And so if you wanted to, you could

add Veras as an extension to that ac

: 1200

00:51:48,231 --> 00:51:49,461

actually show you what that looks like.

: 1201

00:51:49,461 --> 00:51:51,981

It looks pretty, pretty cool.

: 1202

00:51:53,421 --> 00:51:54,711

Uh, let me see here.

: 1203

00:51:54,801 --> 00:51:56,031

Sorry if I'm rambling on

: 1204

00:51:56,106 --> 00:51:56,796

Evan Troxel: No, no worries.

: 1205

00:51:57,321 --> 00:52:00,171

Benjamin Guler: Uh, but, so this

is a, um, this is online, so anyone

: 1206

00:52:00,171 --> 00:52:02,781

AC has access to this, uh, and

he's a, here's a live demo of it.

: 1207

00:52:02,781 --> 00:52:06,681

So this is just a quick little

application that we, uh, uh, put together.

: 1208

00:52:06,681 --> 00:52:08,931

You could just, it's like

a little, uh, sketch tool.

: 1209

00:52:09,321 --> 00:52:12,111

Uh, and you know, this could be, you

know, someone else's sketch tool.

: 1210

00:52:12,441 --> 00:52:16,491

And if you, uh, start Vera, it opens

up Veras in a separate window, uh,

: 1211

00:52:16,521 --> 00:52:20,541

that is kind of linked to, uh, you

know, it's, it's the same application,

: 1212

00:52:20,571 --> 00:52:23,391

and then you can start to render

within that, uh, as an extension.

: 1213

00:52:23,451 --> 00:52:26,031

You know, and this could be your own

3D view or your own application that

: 1214

00:52:26,031 --> 00:52:29,331

you're doing something or a sketch

application, but it loads it as an

: 1215

00:52:29,331 --> 00:52:30,711

extension to your own application.

: 1216

00:52:30,711 --> 00:52:33,651

That's just like a few lines of

code that you have to add and you,

: 1217

00:52:33,651 --> 00:52:35,421

you get, you know, the application.

: 1218

00:52:35,601 --> 00:52:38,481

This was inspired with the, uh,

from the form collaboration.

: 1219

00:52:38,661 --> 00:52:41,301

So Form has also has an extension

and it's fully a web app.

: 1220

00:52:41,661 --> 00:52:44,871

And you could just open up form,

open up your project and extensions,

: 1221

00:52:44,871 --> 00:52:46,161

you click Vera and it's in there.

: 1222

00:52:46,491 --> 00:52:48,891

Uh, so yeah, this is, uh, let's

see, what setting am I using?

: 1223

00:52:49,581 --> 00:52:50,601

Let's use this one.

: 1224

00:52:50,601 --> 00:52:51,171

This one's better.

: 1225

00:52:52,371 --> 00:52:57,651

Um, so yeah, but like going back

to our kind of team makeup, uh, so

: 1226

00:52:57,651 --> 00:53:02,781

we're, we're pretty small, we're very

nimble and uh, yeah, we have fun.

: 1227

00:53:02,901 --> 00:53:04,971

We're excited with what we do every day.

: 1228

00:53:05,951 --> 00:53:06,251

Evan Troxel: When you

: 1229

00:53:06,251 --> 00:53:10,421

approach these, these companies like,

like Vectorworks and you know, I, I

: 1230

00:53:10,421 --> 00:53:15,041

would assume that there's some excitement

that you're coming to them saying, we

: 1231

00:53:15,041 --> 00:53:18,041

want to build on top of what you've got.

: 1232

00:53:18,041 --> 00:53:20,771

We want to talk, we want to get

your users involved in this.

: 1233

00:53:21,101 --> 00:53:21,941

What, what is that?

: 1234

00:53:22,181 --> 00:53:23,291

What's that process

: 1235

00:53:23,291 --> 00:53:23,651

like?

: 1236

00:53:25,101 --> 00:53:26,871

Benjamin Guler: Yeah, it's

really organic actually.

: 1237

00:53:26,871 --> 00:53:30,501

I think we, uh, connected

over social media.

: 1238

00:53:30,501 --> 00:53:31,821

It's like, Hey, you guys

are doing cool things.

: 1239

00:53:31,821 --> 00:53:32,481

Let's just talk.

: 1240

00:53:32,541 --> 00:53:36,201

And then we met in person at a

i a, uh, when, when I met you

: 1241

00:53:36,201 --> 00:53:37,491

guys too, actually in person.

: 1242

00:53:37,821 --> 00:53:38,391

So that was great.

: 1243

00:53:38,391 --> 00:53:40,521

And that's when we're talking

with the VE Vector work team.

: 1244

00:53:40,581 --> 00:53:43,161

And it was just a really good

collaboration, like really good synergy

: 1245

00:53:43,161 --> 00:53:46,461

and like, uh, we liked their, their

personality, their culture, and,

: 1246

00:53:46,521 --> 00:53:48,381

uh, we, we wanted to work with them.

: 1247

00:53:48,381 --> 00:53:50,841

So this was a really

good like, engagement.

: 1248

00:53:51,291 --> 00:53:54,351

Uh, and so yeah, we just set up, you

know, channels to, to talk with one

: 1249

00:53:54,351 --> 00:53:57,711

another and we've, uh, they've helped

us through the process as like, I'm

: 1250

00:53:57,711 --> 00:54:00,921

not a Vector X user, so I don't, like,

I'm learning the interface and you

: 1251

00:54:00,921 --> 00:54:05,931

know, I, not only do I not know that

I know the API even less, uh, so, uh.

: 1252

00:54:06,456 --> 00:54:07,476

It was, it was really good.

: 1253

00:54:07,506 --> 00:54:09,726

Um, with the format team, it was

also a really good engagement.

: 1254

00:54:09,726 --> 00:54:14,256

Like we, um, I think they've added

things 'cause it was pretty early on.

: 1255

00:54:14,256 --> 00:54:17,316

They've added things to their API

to allow things for us to work

: 1256

00:54:17,316 --> 00:54:18,756

together, which is really exciting.

: 1257

00:54:18,786 --> 00:54:22,056

'cause it's like we're both building

these cars at the same time and we wanna

: 1258

00:54:22,061 --> 00:54:23,916

make them both call talk to one another.

: 1259

00:54:24,276 --> 00:54:26,136

Uh, so that was, that

was, that was really fun.

: 1260

00:54:26,556 --> 00:54:28,506

Um, but yeah, it's very organic.

: 1261

00:54:28,506 --> 00:54:32,916

Like, I think, uh, um, I met with,

uh, quite a few people there with,

: 1262

00:54:33,036 --> 00:54:35,646

you know, just going to conferences

and talking to people and say, Hey,

: 1263

00:54:35,646 --> 00:54:38,016

like, Hey, you're doing this cool

thing and we're doing this cool thing.

: 1264

00:54:38,436 --> 00:54:38,946

We should talk.

: 1265

00:54:38,951 --> 00:54:39,726

Yeah, let's talk.

: 1266

00:54:40,056 --> 00:54:44,016

So, uh, yeah, we connected and then,

uh, we, you know, took that conversation

: 1267

00:54:44,016 --> 00:54:45,546

online and we, we made something happen.

: 1268

00:54:46,116 --> 00:54:48,366

Evan Troxel: It's right in line with

what something Randall said in the last

: 1269

00:54:48,366 --> 00:54:50,466

episode with Steve Ano Randall, right.

: 1270

00:54:50,466 --> 00:54:52,926

Because Steve was at Unify and, and you

: 1271

00:54:52,926 --> 00:54:53,886

said what People always

: 1272

00:54:53,886 --> 00:54:54,246

ask

: 1273

00:54:54,246 --> 00:54:54,426

like,

: 1274

00:54:54,696 --> 00:54:54,936

aren't you

: 1275

00:54:54,941 --> 00:54:55,746

guys competitors?

: 1276

00:54:55,746 --> 00:54:56,226

And you said, we

: 1277

00:54:56,231 --> 00:54:57,396

all, we all know each other.

: 1278

00:54:57,726 --> 00:54:58,776

We all like each other.

: 1279

00:54:59,136 --> 00:55:02,496

And I mean, just to kind of what

you're saying is really reinforcing

: 1280

00:55:02,496 --> 00:55:04,926

something that Randall mentioned

in the last one, which is like,

: 1281

00:55:04,926 --> 00:55:10,596

this is a community and, and we're

interested in the a, EC getting better.

: 1282

00:55:10,626 --> 00:55:10,986

Right?

: 1283

00:55:10,986 --> 00:55:15,126

And, and it really sounds like, like

people are interested in working

: 1284

00:55:15,126 --> 00:55:20,106

together and, and forging new pathways

together, collaborations, things like

: 1285

00:55:20,106 --> 00:55:21,936

that to, to really make, make things

: 1286

00:55:21,936 --> 00:55:22,746

better for everybody.

: 1287

00:55:24,021 --> 00:55:24,201

Benjamin Guler: Yeah.

: 1288

00:55:24,206 --> 00:55:25,161

And that's exciting to me.

: 1289

00:55:25,371 --> 00:55:26,601

It's like, that's so great.

: 1290

00:55:26,721 --> 00:55:29,901

That's like the world I wanna be

in, uh, where people corroborate,

: 1291

00:55:29,991 --> 00:55:33,321

no, don't, like, always just compete

and try to kinda up one each other.

: 1292

00:55:33,326 --> 00:55:35,481

It's like, actually yes, this

logistic approach where actually

: 1293

00:55:35,961 --> 00:55:37,101

one plus one equals three.

: 1294

00:55:37,521 --> 00:55:43,341

Uh, so I, I I, I've been very fortunate

and, uh, you know, that we've got to

: 1295

00:55:43,341 --> 00:55:44,601

collaborate with these amazing people.

: 1296

00:55:44,641 --> 00:55:47,136

Randall Stevens: Well, I think the,

uh, I think the tech stacks have.

: 1297

00:55:47,246 --> 00:55:52,586

F as they've matured, have allowed

more and more, right, of more easily

: 1298

00:55:52,586 --> 00:55:54,026

moving data in and out, right?

: 1299

00:55:54,026 --> 00:55:57,776

Having APIs, uh, you know, using

JSON or some other, you know,

: 1300

00:55:58,431 --> 00:55:58,771

you know,

: 1301

00:55:58,886 --> 00:56:02,846

sim simpler ways to move data around

from these applications and workflows.

: 1302

00:56:02,851 --> 00:56:06,476

So it's, uh, it's been conducive,

I think, more and more for

: 1303

00:56:06,716 --> 00:56:07,436

companies to begin

: 1304

00:56:07,436 --> 00:56:08,006

collaborating.

: 1305

00:56:09,456 --> 00:56:09,606

Benjamin Guler: Yeah.

: 1306

00:56:09,606 --> 00:56:13,356

That was a very intentional thing too,

because we're traditionally like Revit

: 1307

00:56:13,356 --> 00:56:18,156

C sharp developers, and we use WPF

and, and for most of our Revit add-ins.

: 1308

00:56:18,246 --> 00:56:22,626

Uh, you know, 'cause part of our

company also does services, uh,

: 1309

00:56:22,626 --> 00:56:26,316

app, app application development

services, and that's kind of our stack.

: 1310

00:56:26,436 --> 00:56:30,456

Uh, and so with Helix, which was

a SketchUp integration, that's

: 1311

00:56:30,456 --> 00:56:32,916

where we start to migrate away

from that to web, web stack.

: 1312

00:56:33,186 --> 00:56:36,246

And with Web Stack right now, with what

we, what we see here in the demo on the

: 1313

00:56:36,246 --> 00:56:38,106

screen, you don't have to do anything.

: 1314

00:56:38,106 --> 00:56:39,576

You could just actually load this up.

: 1315

00:56:39,581 --> 00:56:42,726

If you have a web app without

even like contacting us, you could

: 1316

00:56:42,726 --> 00:56:44,166

just copy those snippets of code.

: 1317

00:56:44,571 --> 00:56:47,541

In your application and you

have it like it's that easy.

: 1318

00:56:47,961 --> 00:56:52,431

Uh, and so it's, yeah, we're really,

uh, we were very intentional about

: 1319

00:56:52,431 --> 00:56:54,861

that because we're seeing how a lot

of things are moving towards that way.

: 1320

00:56:54,861 --> 00:56:59,601

And it's very modular, very, uh,

contained so that you can actually have

: 1321

00:56:59,601 --> 00:57:02,271

these pieces that are part of, you know,

you could build a larger application

: 1322

00:57:02,271 --> 00:57:03,591

of seal of applications together.

: 1323

00:57:03,741 --> 00:57:06,981

It's mosaic of apps by building it

this way and having kind of almost

: 1324

00:57:06,981 --> 00:57:08,601

the same kind of, you know, web stack.

: 1325

00:57:08,901 --> 00:57:09,381

Uh, but yeah.

: 1326

00:57:09,441 --> 00:57:12,471

Yeah, that's, that is something that

we're seeing and it's actually exciting.

: 1327

00:57:12,471 --> 00:57:15,411

It's really cool that a lot of

applications are moving, uh, to the web.

: 1328

00:57:15,711 --> 00:57:18,441

Randall Stevens: So how many, how

many people been, did you say are

: 1329

00:57:18,446 --> 00:57:20,961

working on this particular product?

: 1330

00:57:21,966 --> 00:57:23,241

Benjamin Guler: Uh, so we're four,

: 1331

00:57:23,601 --> 00:57:24,051

uh, working,

: 1332

00:57:24,411 --> 00:57:26,661

um, on the, on the product.

: 1333

00:57:26,726 --> 00:57:26,906

Randall Stevens: Good.

: 1334

00:57:26,906 --> 00:57:27,176

Tight,

: 1335

00:57:27,446 --> 00:57:28,346

good, tight team.

: 1336

00:57:28,406 --> 00:57:28,706

Right?

: 1337

00:57:29,276 --> 00:57:29,996

It's, it is one of

: 1338

00:57:29,996 --> 00:57:33,596

those, you know, if you, if you've

ever been in software development,

: 1339

00:57:33,656 --> 00:57:37,466

you know, sometimes four people

can get more done than 40.

: 1340

00:57:37,556 --> 00:57:37,886

Right?

: 1341

00:57:38,061 --> 00:57:38,691

Benjamin Guler: It's interesting.

: 1342

00:57:39,236 --> 00:57:39,416

Randall Stevens: it

: 1343

00:57:39,621 --> 00:57:41,871

Benjamin Guler: I think our squeeze

spot might be around like 10 or 20.

: 1344

00:57:42,026 --> 00:57:42,296

Randall Stevens: yeah.

: 1345

00:57:42,741 --> 00:57:45,141

Benjamin Guler: Like as soon as

you and what I've seen, it's like

: 1346

00:57:45,141 --> 00:57:46,701

once you go beyond that, it's like

: 1347

00:57:47,040 --> 00:57:48,660

there's more breakers than accelerators

: 1348

00:57:48,735 --> 00:57:49,100

Randall Stevens: Yeah, yeah,

: 1349

00:57:49,250 --> 00:57:49,640

Yeah.

: 1350

00:57:49,890 --> 00:57:50,310

Evan Troxel: You guys are

: 1351

00:57:50,310 --> 00:57:50,790

Benjamin Guler: and then

: 1352

00:57:50,825 --> 00:57:51,225

Randall Stevens: things down.

: 1353

00:57:51,300 --> 00:57:52,170

Evan Troxel: with Brooks Law.

: 1354

00:57:52,170 --> 00:57:52,650

Have you heard of

: 1355

00:57:52,650 --> 00:57:53,250

Brooks Law?

: 1356

00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:53,820

If you look at

: 1357

00:57:53,820 --> 00:57:54,000

it, I'll

: 1358

00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:54,780

put a link to it in the

: 1359

00:57:54,780 --> 00:57:55,890

show notes from Wikipedia.

: 1360

00:57:55,890 --> 00:57:56,760

But Yeah.

: 1361

00:57:56,760 --> 00:57:58,110

it's like how many

people are on your team?

: 1362

00:57:58,110 --> 00:58:00,600

If, if you have, if you

have two people, right?

: 1363

00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:01,020

The line of

: 1364

00:58:01,020 --> 00:58:01,950

communication

: 1365

00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:02,970

is

: 1366

00:58:03,540 --> 00:58:06,360

just back and forth if you,

you have a third person, right?

: 1367

00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:08,580

We have, we have two more

lines of communication.

: 1368

00:58:09,210 --> 00:58:12,930

If you have four people now, now we start

: 1369

00:58:12,930 --> 00:58:13,890

getting a little

: 1370

00:58:13,890 --> 00:58:14,940

crazy, right,

: 1371

00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:18,330

And it just gets crazier

and crazier and crazier.

: 1372

00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:19,890

Like Randall's

: 1373

00:58:20,190 --> 00:58:20,610

40

: 1374

00:58:20,615 --> 00:58:21,870

people like you.

: 1375

00:58:21,870 --> 00:58:22,560

Imagine what my

: 1376

00:58:22,560 --> 00:58:23,790

diagram would look like with 40

: 1377

00:58:23,790 --> 00:58:24,180

people.

: 1378

00:58:24,180 --> 00:58:24,540

It would

: 1379

00:58:24,540 --> 00:58:25,890

be, it would be insane.

: 1380

00:58:26,190 --> 00:58:26,430

And

: 1381

00:58:26,430 --> 00:58:28,560

just managing that is

: 1382

00:58:29,100 --> 00:58:29,700

becomes the

: 1383

00:58:29,700 --> 00:58:30,090

job.

: 1384

00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:31,020

I I just talking

: 1385

00:58:31,020 --> 00:58:36,240

about this on another podcast, just

email like in one day, 236 emails,

: 1386

00:58:36,750 --> 00:58:40,110

if leadership of a company knew

how much time people were spending.

: 1387

00:58:40,500 --> 00:58:43,560

Just fielding emails, and

that's just one piece, right?

: 1388

00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:44,610

It's incredible.

: 1389

00:58:44,760 --> 00:58:48,000

Wouldn't you rather have people on

your staff playing with a tool like

: 1390

00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:52,350

this, doing something valuable on a

project rather than fielding email?

: 1391

00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:52,920

Right.

: 1392

00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:55,890

And, and so it, it is like, it's a

: 1393

00:58:55,890 --> 00:58:56,370

crazy thing.

: 1394

00:58:56,370 --> 00:58:57,000

So that's, that's

: 1395

00:58:57,005 --> 00:58:58,080

amazing that you're building

: 1396

00:58:58,080 --> 00:59:02,220

this tool with four people and

to see how fast you're releasing

: 1397

00:59:02,580 --> 00:59:04,890

new features, bug fixes.

: 1398

00:59:05,280 --> 00:59:06,570

It's, it's absolutely

: 1399

00:59:06,930 --> 00:59:07,680

so cool.

: 1400

00:59:08,180 --> 00:59:08,360

Benjamin Guler: yeah.

: 1401

00:59:08,360 --> 00:59:10,970

We literally see, like when we

have one person on the project,

: 1402

00:59:11,480 --> 00:59:13,730

uh, like does say it's a hundred

percent, that's the baseline.

: 1403

00:59:14,030 --> 00:59:17,360

When you add two people, it's

already at like one 50 each.

: 1404

00:59:17,365 --> 00:59:18,380

That's 300% output.

: 1405

00:59:18,755 --> 00:59:19,655

Just because of that.

: 1406

00:59:19,655 --> 00:59:22,115

Like actually, like you build on one

another and you encourage one another.

: 1407

00:59:22,175 --> 00:59:24,845

Just having two, three becomes

like a hundred percent.

: 1408

00:59:24,845 --> 00:59:28,565

Again, all of them four becomes 80%

everyone, or 90% everyone, and it

: 1409

00:59:28,565 --> 00:59:29,765

just kind of starts to go lower.

: 1410

00:59:29,945 --> 00:59:32,105

But you're still getting 90%

of every single person, which

: 1411

00:59:32,105 --> 00:59:35,015

is way more than three still

because of the way it compounds

: 1412

00:59:35,345 --> 00:59:37,145

or not compounds, but the

way it kind of adds up.

: 1413

00:59:37,325 --> 00:59:41,915

So, but at a certain level it's like

you're, like you said earlier, like you're

: 1414

00:59:41,915 --> 00:59:45,395

spending time, a full-time job, just

communicating, just getting everyone you

: 1415

00:59:45,395 --> 00:59:47,885

know, and different emotions, different,

you know, everyone's very passionate and

: 1416

00:59:47,885 --> 00:59:51,035

love the project and you know, there's,

when you're, you know, super passionate

: 1417

00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:53,645

about something, you have different

ideas, different opinions, you have to,

: 1418

00:59:53,650 --> 00:59:54,905

you know, okay, well let's try this one.

: 1419

00:59:55,025 --> 00:59:55,775

Which is good actually.

: 1420

00:59:55,775 --> 00:59:56,525

We like that friction.

: 1421

00:59:56,525 --> 00:59:59,165

We like to have a little bit of friction

because it kind of likes the best idea

: 1422

00:59:59,435 --> 01:00:02,885

when, but when it gets to a certain

size, then it gets like, okay, well

: 1423

01:00:02,885 --> 01:00:06,275

we can't get things done as, as, as

fast as we'd like to get them done.

: 1424

01:00:06,275 --> 01:00:06,515

So.

: 1425

01:00:06,950 --> 01:00:07,190

Yeah,

: 1426

01:00:07,670 --> 01:00:09,650

Evan Troxel: And there's the other

parts of everyone's life that

: 1427

01:00:09,655 --> 01:00:10,910

works its way into what we do.

: 1428

01:00:11,090 --> 01:00:11,330

Right?

: 1429

01:00:11,330 --> 01:00:15,440

There's, there's the, the emergencies,

there's the kids, there's the school,

: 1430

01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:17,960

there's the lunches, there's everything,

: 1431

01:00:18,320 --> 01:00:20,510

there's drama and, and all that

: 1432

01:00:20,540 --> 01:00:22,160

is a piece of that as well.

: 1433

01:00:22,165 --> 01:00:23,090

And it, it's big a

: 1434

01:00:23,090 --> 01:00:24,410

part of that soup for sure.

: 1435

01:00:25,490 --> 01:00:26,125

Benjamin Guler: Yep, yep.

: 1436

01:00:26,125 --> 01:00:26,605

We're all human.

: 1437

01:00:27,315 --> 01:00:27,665

Randall Stevens: Great.

: 1438

01:00:27,670 --> 01:00:27,940

Great.

: 1439

01:00:28,780 --> 01:00:29,710

It's been great, Ben.

: 1440

01:00:29,770 --> 01:00:30,130

Uh.

: 1441

01:00:30,700 --> 01:00:32,950

Appreciate your being able to share.

: 1442

01:00:33,040 --> 01:00:37,600

You know, obviously a lot of people have

seen the output, but you know, we like

: 1443

01:00:37,600 --> 01:00:40,360

to do on this podcast is give a little

bit of the behind the scenes and the

: 1444

01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:42,250

backstory for how all this came about.

: 1445

01:00:42,255 --> 01:00:44,920

So we really appreciate your,

uh, willingness to share.

: 1446

01:00:45,115 --> 01:00:45,235

I.

: 1447

01:00:45,795 --> 01:00:46,135

Benjamin Guler: Of course.

: 1448

01:00:46,365 --> 01:00:46,935

It's a pleasure.

: 1449

01:00:48,365 --> 01:00:51,995

Evan Troxel: so we'll put links to

Evolve Lab Veras in the show notes.

: 1450

01:00:51,995 --> 01:00:55,595

Ben, I'll put a link to your, uh,

LinkedIn so people can follow you.

: 1451

01:00:55,595 --> 01:01:00,515

And, uh, I'll encourage everyone to again,

look up the hashtag Veras ai Veras render.

: 1452

01:01:00,845 --> 01:01:02,285

You mentioned a couple of them earlier.

: 1453

01:01:02,345 --> 01:01:05,435

Um, I think that would be

eye-opening for people to see the

: 1454

01:01:05,435 --> 01:01:08,525

kinds of output that people are

producing with a tool like this.

: 1455

01:01:08,525 --> 01:01:10,985

And it, I, thanks so much for sharing.

: 1456

01:01:11,105 --> 01:01:14,195

I'll just echo what Randall just

said, just to, to take us behind

: 1457

01:01:14,200 --> 01:01:15,815

the scenes and, and get into it.

: 1458

01:01:15,815 --> 01:01:17,975

I think I even learned a

few things just watching you

: 1459

01:01:17,975 --> 01:01:19,145

use the tool today

: 1460

01:01:19,535 --> 01:01:19,865

that

: 1461

01:01:19,865 --> 01:01:21,755

I probably wouldn't have

picked up on my own.

: 1462

01:01:21,760 --> 01:01:24,725

So another benefit for, uh,

people watching this episode.

: 1463

01:01:24,880 --> 01:01:27,400

Randall Stevens: And we should, uh, we

should mention, I don't know if we're

: 1464

01:01:27,405 --> 01:01:30,970

gonna get Ben over for the Confluence

event that we're gonna do in New York

: 1465

01:01:30,970 --> 01:01:35,800

City on April 17th, the one day event,

but it is around AI and machine learning.

: 1466

01:01:35,800 --> 01:01:36,850

So this is right up the alley.

: 1467

01:01:36,855 --> 01:01:40,600

So we'll twist your arm, Ben,

and, and hope to see you there

: 1468

01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:42,460

or other members of your team.

: 1469

01:01:42,520 --> 01:01:43,270

And then, uh.

: 1470

01:01:43,780 --> 01:01:47,890

Hopefully anybody in the, uh, in

that region or in that area will be

: 1471

01:01:47,890 --> 01:01:49,690

able to, to come and learn that day.

: 1472

01:01:49,720 --> 01:01:52,210

'cause we'll have, uh, several

people, uh, the, the speakers

: 1473

01:01:52,210 --> 01:01:54,070

will be, start to be announced

here in the next couple of weeks.

: 1474

01:01:54,070 --> 01:01:55,030

So by the time this

: 1475

01:01:55,030 --> 01:01:56,320

podcast come out, you'll be able to

: 1476

01:01:56,830 --> 01:02:00,280

check out who all, uh, you can come

and meet and greet and have, uh, just

: 1477

01:02:00,280 --> 01:02:01,960

deeper conversations around these topics.

: 1478

01:02:02,840 --> 01:02:05,810

Evan Troxel: Yeah, we'll have a link to

that event in the show notes as well, so

: 1479

01:02:05,810 --> 01:02:07,610

people can click on that and learn more.

: 1480

01:02:08,030 --> 01:02:11,270

Uh, and, uh, yeah, it would be

great to see everyone who's really

: 1481

01:02:11,270 --> 01:02:15,410

interested in this kind of work show

up and, and be in the room for, for

: 1482

01:02:15,410 --> 01:02:16,580

what's gonna happen at that event.

: 1483

01:02:16,580 --> 01:02:16,820

So.

: 1484

01:02:17,540 --> 01:02:20,000

All right, well, I think

we're gonna wrap this one up.

: 1485

01:02:20,005 --> 01:02:21,050

Thanks again everybody.

: 1486

01:02:21,050 --> 01:02:22,790

This was a fantastic conversation.

: 1487

01:02:23,168 --> 01:02:23,523

Randall Stevens: Thanks guys.

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