Joining the show today is Ashley Washington, the Game Changers EMEA Product Manager at Riot, where she works on building spaces for folks in marginalized genders to play, compete, and have fun. We talk about Game Changers, and how it creates a safe space for women who are interested in competitive play and removing some of the negative factors that often keep them from progressing and finding further opportunities. Plus, we both get to flex a little about our foreign language skills (Ashley is the far more talented one in that department).

Episode Resources:

https://www.theloadout.com/valorant/game-changers-ashley-washington-interview 

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Hello, and welcome to the meta woman podcast part

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the boss POS and from struggle to success. We're covering it

all. To our returning listeners. You hear me say this every week.

But thank you so much for supporting the show. For all the

new listeners, please come back. I would love to have you today

we're welcoming a major guest from a company that hopefully

all of you have heard of. And if not, I don't know where you've

been living. Ashley Washington is the game changers e m e a

product manager at Riot, where she works on building spaces for

folks and marginalized genders to play compete and have fun.

Ashley, I'm so excited to welcome you to the show, I'm

giving you a short introduction because I would love for you to

tell the audience about what you do at Riot, what EMBA stands for

and how you enjoy it.

Thank you. I'm looking forward to being able to explain

all of those things.

Yeah, give me a little quick background on what

you currently do and and how you like it and all that stuff.

Yeah.

So I guess the outward facing response to that is that

I'm the product manager for game changers, which is a program

that essentially supplements the valorant competitive season by

providing a tournament in order to create new opportunities for

women in the valorant esports community. What that actually

translates to in the day to day is kind of a combination of me

touching base with players and teams and people in the company

about how things have gone. So far, what we're trying to do

with the tournament, dreaming up the best version of this and

figuring out how we can get it done. I do refer to this as

professional dreaming, because a lot of the time this is me

coming up with the craziest, most amazing version of this

tournament and then kind of stress testing it against the

limits and what people actually want and things like this. But

it's actually quite fun work. And at the end of the day, the

product is this really killer competitive experience for the

large amount of women in the Ballarat community that we have

anemia.

Yeah. Can you tell me what the acronym is? And how

to do that properly? Everyone else knows, I guess like, is it

EME? Or do they have like a fun way of making that into a word?

And you just said the word. So do it again?

Yeah, Amina is massive. It's Europe, its Middle East.

And it's Africa. This makes it sound like there's like a lot

more in there than we actually deal with. But there are

obviously like some key countries in the space that we

deal with more so and then areas you just won't really see pop

up, at least not at this stage. I hope later.

I've never heard them grouped together in this

way. So that's interesting. You know, we talked about like na

and SA, but never the EMEA region.

Did not so new for me. Yeah,

none of my international relations classes

included the EMEA region, it said in in that way. So that

makes a lot more sense. I want to get into your history, how

you made it into gaming. But let's start just by telling me

about what you do with the game changes program from a high

level perspective, like what the organization does. And from a UI

perspective, I know you went into this a little bit with

being a professional dreamer and following up with teams and all

that, but would love to get kind of more of a high level

overview. And then if you could just go even into more of what

you do and what you enjoy, I guess.

Yeah, I think one thing that's really good to note here

is that valorant, as a game, and its community is already so

massive, and so diverse, there are a pretty large number of

women playing valorant. And it was sort of a natural

opportunity, I think, to provide the competitive space for those

women as well. If you look at the esports industry as a whole,

you see that there's clearly a disparity and the amount of

women in the main rosters in the professional space and the women

that are playing the game at the highest skill levels. So game

changers is basically meant to address this in a way, not only

providing the platform for the women who are playing valorant

To play competitively, but also to give them a chance to build

their skills. If this is something that they want to do.

This is something that's also very important to my work, I

think on the on the low level as far as like what this ends up

looking like in terms of what I actually do. It's a lot of

listening. I would say I'm I'm on social media, talking to

other people in the company. They might not even be working

on valorant they might be working in league or something

kind of just to pull information about their own experiences.

There are opinions and their ideas about how to create a

space within the Ballarat ecosystem that not only

satisfies this need for more female talent, but also helps us

truly serve the women in the space in a way that actually

helps them. Because in many ways, you would think that just

like making a tournament and saying only women can play in

this is enough. But there are so many aspects to this. And that

would say the opposite. Essentially, this is not enough

that there needs to be growth opportunity, there needs to be

support, there are a number of sensitivities to pay attention

to when it comes to having women in the exact same structures

that exist in esports already, and this is the kind of stuff

that I look at the opportunity itself to create the tournament,

and also the nuances that we have to process and figuring out

what makes this the best case scenario for a woman in the

valorant ecosystem.

We're definitely gonna dive more into that too, I

want to just back up for a second because one of the topics

that's come up on this podcast, specifically so many times, and

I've actually used valorant, and league as examples, is talking

about building a culture from the ground up, versus changing a

culture that already exists. Obviously, when valorant came

out, it was huge. It was right, it was their second major

project after League, the league has been around for a decade or

two now at this point, or we're really creeping up there. So I

would love from your perspective from someone who is at Riot and

working in valorant, just to know what you think about

changing systems that are already in place versus building

brand new systems and what you think are the pros and cons to

kind of both approach. Obviously, you are working in

building a new system. And so I'm hoping that you're going to

say that you think that's more fun and interesting, just

because that's the project that you're on. But I would love to

know just what you think about that kind of changing what's

already there versus building completely from scratch, which

one companies should or what strategies other companies

should kind of consider for addressing kind of the

structural issues you talked about in both scenarios? And

which one you think is more fun to work on?

That's a really good question, I have to say, and

maybe this is an unconventional approach. But when I came into

riot as a person with a variety of different products, and my

background, I looked at this as something very unique and fresh.

And I actually did not necessarily take a comparative

perspective, because I saw myself walking into even if it

is a new game, something that already exists. And I think that

the best way to describe this would actually be more in the

industry context. Because you could flavor this any way you

want. I mean, this could be any game you want. But if you look

at the space as a whole, a lot of the issues that we see, are

actually replicating themselves. And I see the titles and looking

at those titles and specificity of their communities to be sort

of an obscuring factor, and in many cases, and honestly,

sometimes a crutch for kind of excusing repetitive behaviors

that kind of perpetuate the issues that we're seeing. So I

think one of the things that I looked at that I that I honestly

recommend most companies or organizations look at in

general, when approaching this is really that the system that

exists is the industry itself, we are both inadvertently and

sometimes deliberately perpetuating the problems that

are appearing there, whether that's predominantly male

rosters in the game, or predominantly male management

teams in an organization. For example, in the esports.

Industry, this stuff all feeds into itself. And I think one of

the really important things to think about in terms of the

competitive space for valor and how to approach how I

approached, figuring out how to sort of improve it, I guess,

would be a better way to describe it is really that we

need to a create visibility around these issues. And I think

sometimes the best way to do that is to try to do something

and highlight the problems that we're facing, for example, be

open about the issues that we run into in the process. And

also to create, most importantly, not just a

competitive space, but a safe space for the women that are in

the space to engage with because the safe space should really

exist across the board. One would argue that the system

itself should be safe enough space that the women don't need

the safe space to begin with. Right. And I think that once

that safe space is created, it's then important to see how you

can incentivize the development of that safe space and its

effectiveness. Because in some ways, the safe space being there

isn't enough. There has to be sort of like an awareness of why

it's needed constantly because to this day, I guarantee you,

regardless of which organization is run any initiative that there

will be people criticizing whether or not it makes sense to

create a space that's just for women, you know, is that

perpetuating the problem is this, you know, making it worse

that you like, create a safe space where only women can play

and no men can be, for example, is that anti diversity, for

example, essentially, with game changers, we look at this, and

we try to highlight the fact that women entering the space

are not entering the space on even footing. So the safe space

is essentially necessary, so that they can build the same

skills that male players have, without dealing with the stuff

that keeps them from already being there. So the toxicity and

the preference for men on the teams and stuff like this, they

develop those skills there, they test those skills against other

women in the community community is built to share experiences Hi

is highlighted, which in turn, increases resilience for the

space, I would say. So the ability to face that adversity,

and feel comfortable doing it to know that your your presence is

warranted and supported by in this case, a major organization

with a great title that you're engaging with, and that this

should then translate to a more diverse industry in general, I

would say any organization or company that's looking at this

issue, should really think not only about Hey, are we including

women, but are we setting them up for success? Are we just

introducing women to the space and expecting that they succeed?

Because they have the opportunity? Or are we really

setting them up to take advantage of the same things

that male players have in this space? Are they going to be at

the right skill level to space success here to see success

here? Are they going to be able to endure the obstacles that

might exist in the space? Are they mentally prepared things

like this? These are the questions that really have to be

asked. Because I think in general, in terms of initiatives

like this for women, you have to move beyond the baseline. And I

think that it's an uncomfortable pill to swallow. But the

baseline is the existence of the space. It really is. The

existence is baseline, that's MVP, okay, it's the first thing,

but you have to iterate, you have to make sure it's a space,

where you're also equipping those who are disadvantaged with

the capacity and ability to see real success and know that the

promise that we're making is one that we're ready to follow up

on. That makes

sense to me. And so funny that you bring that up,

because one of the conversations I was having yesterday, someone

had pointed out that problem curation is one of the key or is

basically the starting point for actually solving the problem. So

with what you're talking about, it's like figuring out exactly

how or kind of that point at which women are stopping their

progression and addressing those issues. It's so interesting that

this problem curation thing has kind of come up for me like

very, very many times recently, because I think that a lot of

women I've talked to on the show have basically said progress is

happening, but it's a lot slower than we expected. And I think

part of the reason for that slowdown is that you're right,

that there's this sense that Well, women can play

competitively now. So there's this this kind of equality. And

you were the actually the one who taught me about this, this

framework that there's this, this equality that Oh, women can

play now, but there's not there's not the equity and what

opportunities are available, and what skills are developed in how

environments are framed to be welcoming to women who are

learning how to play the game. And so that was so interesting

for me, like kind of putting those two things together with

problem curation and equity versus equality. I feel like so

many of the women I talked to you now i can i can think back

on those conversations and think they are happy that there is

equality and unhappy that the equity portion hasn't been

addressed. And that is the the slowdown in the movement that

we've had. I don't know if that does that make sense to you? As

the one who taught me this?

That's exactly it. It's Yes, it's the it's the missing

ingredient? In most cases where it's like, okay, I mean, the

tournament is there, what's the issue? You know, they're trying

to leave the tournament and do other parts of the ecosystem,

and they're not finding success? Why, for example, can we be

thinking about ways to make it easier for women to move from

Game Changers into the rest of the ecosystem, so that they're

prepared to do that? Sometimes it's not even just about skill.

Sometimes the skill is there, okay. But, you know, current

rule sets would say that if you're participating in one part

of the ecosystem, you can't appear in another part of it

like in another tournament circuit. With game changers, for

example, we've taken steps to make it so that a game changers

participant can actually be in other parts of the ecosystem

that they want to. That's not a rule that exists for other

players in the ecosystem. That's what equity looks like.

Sometimes equity is not like, it's the same for everybody.

Sometimes you have to make sure that the disadvantaged group has

the boost that they need to match the rest. And these are

kind of the tough decisions that you have to make In order to

like actually see success manifested in the space, I would

say,

How are advertisers, sponsors, companies

who want to partner all of that, reacting to the creation of this

program? I mean, what I'm hoping you're gonna say is tons of

people are on board, and they're backing up their word. And

everyone's super committed to making game changers work. I

know that there's I asked this, because there's obviously a lot

of tide and push towards social change in all kinds of

directions. And we do see companies sort of stepping up.

But as we all know that those promises can also be a little

empty, or maybe not as supportive. So as the person

who's kind of overseeing this program and helping develop it,

what are you finding with with outside companies coming in?

Yeah, all the all those, you know, sponsored collaborators,

all that stuff.

And my experience, the reaction is pretty positive. And

I think one reason that this is the case is because the problem

that we're seeing in the esports ecosystems are not unique to the

esports ecosystems, they're seen in the tech space in general,

and in a range of other industries, it's a relatable

problem, I guess, is a good way to put it. And I think a lot of

times what you see, especially if the sponsors are in the tech

industry as well, is that this is also an important message for

them to be expressing in a way to show support for the game

changers initiative. Because I think the hope is that it speaks

to their intentions as well as as as their own organization.

And I feel like this is a really great I hate to use this word.

It's a great synergy and purpose, honestly, that matches

up does anybody like using the word synergy? I I think it's a

really good matchup honestly, like the ability to say, hey,

you know, and especially with initiative, when you like, agree

to sponsor initiative, hey, we're all like committed to

figuring this out together and making sure that the resources

are there to do so one of my hopes is that we see more

sponsors for other non gaming industries coming into, you

know, engaged with the initiative, because I think

this, this just makes the message larger, I honestly think

that's really great. So what I've seen is actually really

great reaction, I think it's always a question of like, is

the initiative going to have enough money and stuff because

usually, these things aren't going to be like the biggest

moneymaker in the portfolio. But I think when partners and

sponsors show up to, you know, demonstrate that common belief,

by supporting the initiative in various capacities, we're seeing

exactly what we would like to see we do something like this,

the effect kind of ripple throughout.

That's so wonderful. Very, very glad to

hear that. Also, what is it been like from the team perspective?

Are you having a lot of teams reach out to you? Are you

helping to develop teams? What has the response been like, from

people who actually play like, I, again, I'm hoping that

there's, you know, 1000, people clamoring to get your attention

and join game changers. But what's that kind of been like

from from building building up the competition, not that side

of it,

honestly, it's great. I think it's also complicated. So

you have like a few perspectives. When it comes to

teams, you're gonna have people coming from a lot of different

backgrounds. And I think this is maybe one of the most

interesting parts, because having worked in esports,

before, I would say, I'm not like a stranger to orcs and

teams. But coming into the game changer space, you see a variety

of different types of orgs, and teams, some have really big

organizations behind them that also have main teams. And you

know, they're already making a nice amount of money. And then

some are, you know, girls that got together that are in school

together to you know, play. And then some are like organizations

that maybe aren't as successful, but are hoping to find success

in the game changer space. So reception varies depending on

like, what the team is hoping to get out of the experience, I

would say, overwhelmingly positive for sure. And this is

something I'm so excited to see. And one of the reasons I was so

excited to take this position is because there's so many people

in the community who are just enamored by the initiative, they

love it, and it's something that they're very attached to. And I

think that with that passion and attachment also comes, you know,

some demands, and I think that they're totally valid, you know,

these are the people we want to be listening to, honestly, when

it comes to this whole game changer setup, really, because,

you know, we set out to create a safe space for women to engage

in the competitive environment. And if they don't feel like

they're able to do that, or if they feel like it's not

something we're delivering on, then this is exactly the kind of

thing we would like to hear. So I have to say, while it's

overwhelmingly positive, it's also sometimes very tough, and

that's good. I welcome this I welcome the feedback. I welcome

the criticism because in general, I think that this helps

us a lot. And I hope that in many ways, we're able to figure

out what a mature game changers environment looks like. I think

right now it's early days, this is our I want to say, third

year, who's to say what a mature, like timespan of a

tournament really looks like. But I think in our case, we're

really still trying to figure out what our community looks

like where their skills are, where they need the most help,

how we can help them best. So I would say that we're not

necessarily in a super mature place. So all of this feedback

that we're getting is going to help us figure out what people

really want from it. Do they want it to look like the VRL? Do

they want something completely unique, unique to game changers

and unique to the game changers experience? This is what we want

to find out. And this feedback, positive or negative is how we

get there. But I do have to say, I was very proud to walk into a

role where people are already in love with the tournament,

because this is very inspiring for me. Yeah,

it's kind of sounds like you have Well, I'm

gonna put it in basketball terms, because I'm a former

basketball player. So I I play pickup games on Tuesday nights.

They're very fun, but also terrible on Wednesday mornings.

Um, so I play with a bunch of people I grew up with very

casual pickup. And then obviously, we go all the way up

to the NBA. It sounds like that's kind of that's kind of

where you are with the kinds of people that you're bringing in,

you have very casual, loosely organized teams all the way up

to well built, well organized in complex organizations. So how

are you creating programs, tournaments, events, boot camps,

whatever it may be, and balancing the needs of all those

folks.

This is the question of the year like, literally, this

is what I'm trying to think about right now. So we have to

evolve this setup in general. Right now we have a tournament

where people can come to play, which is great. This is so good

already, it really is I don't want anybody to be like it's not

great, because it's amazing. But what we do need to do, I think,

in many ways, is figuring out, you know, what's the next step

to growing more of the talent in the space? So we have like a

couple of really dominant teams right now. How do we get more

teams that are dominating? How do we add to the space right

now, it seems like skill disparity is a thing. So I would

love to be able to create more opportunities to help players

grow their skills, for example, or maybe do more of like a

sharing of knowledge, because right has a really great

platform for this. There's all kinds of stuff I think that we

can offer in terms of knowledge to like help people feel more

equipped for this space as well. I really think there's so many

options. And honestly, I haven't been able to make any decisions

yet. But this is one of the questions I'm asking myself

every day. And when I talk to the to the teams and the

players. This is my favorite part really getting to talk to

the game changers players, because they have so many ideas

for what they would like to see. And it honestly feels like there

are a lot of really great options. And it's really just

about picking the options that fit the community best. Yeah, I

think that that's I mean, that's super fair. If

you could have answered if you could have given me a perfect

answer for that, then I don't know you would? I don't know.

Yeah, that's like that. That is the idea. So I wasn't I

definitely wasn't expecting that. I also think that yeah,

what you said, it's important to note that things are still

great, even when they're evolving. And honestly, things

are better when people are also taking a look and seeing how you

can continuously improve and build. So that was I was

definitely not expecting you to have like a eight point plan. On

that one. Let's speaking of let's pivot a little bit and

actually talk about you because this is unfortunate, but it's

not every day that I get to meet a black woman who works for her

major triple A publisher, I know that there's been a huge push

from publishers more recently, especially in the wake of a

whole lot of bad news to work on these things. That still doesn't

mean I've read these statistics on the show so many times and

anyone can Google them. But that doesn't mean that the push is

necessarily translating into into results that we would like

to see at the moment. So prior to riot, were you finding it

difficult to break into the games industry? And how do you

think that we can get more people who look like you into

the games industry?

Yes, I have to say that. There were a lot of

difficulties I had getting into gaming. I think that they were

kind of for a variety of reasons I came in from a non tech

background. And a lot of times when you want to get into games

that helps have a tech background, there are still ways

to get in. This is one thing I definitely have to say for

anybody wanting to get in there are still ways the obvious thing

to remember there is that not everybody in the gaming industry

is a developer. So this is one of the things that I had to

remember when trying to get in and what this required of me at

the time was to essentially kind of take a step back in my career

level. I was As a mid level account manager for a dating

company before I got into the gaming industry, and my first

job in gaming was to test apps as a QA analyst, which can be

technical, but it's not like, you know, quintessentially

technical I thought I was going to be, I thought I was going to

be a developer. This is how I this how I ended up there. What

was the hardest thing I think, in the whole process, and this

is even back when I was studying game design, is that I think

that even if it's not mean spirited, that sometimes people

just don't expect women to know as much as men do in the space.

I mean, I studied game design at New York University, which was

an excellent game design program. And even when I was a

gaming journalist, after studying a writing heavy thing,

as well, so twice credited, credited here, I was still

feeling like I had to validate my knowledge all the time, like

people just could not believe that I really knew what I was

talking about, even after writing the articles and things

like this. That was still something I think that I dealt

with a lot of times in the earlier part of my career, which

was exhausting and oftentimes made me doubt myself, I have to

say i There were definitely times where I considered

leaving. But I think one of the things that I kept in mind, and

one of the things I tell so many people who are from

disadvantaged backgrounds, and also underrepresented groups

that want to get into gaming, or tech is that presence is also a

win, because sometimes it's hard to move up. And sometimes it

takes a long time. And sometimes the plan is unclear. Or you try

and it doesn't work in some spaces, hard work might not be

enough, sometimes you just have to make a move. But being there

is already worth so much. Because there's somebody out

there who looks like you who isn't sure if they can make that

move. And when they see you there year after year, month

after month, whatever the timescale is, I'm looking at you

six months in a company and the company goes down girlies,

that's also a win, by the way. Been there. Presence is so so so

valuable. And this is this is something that I think is really

key to thriving in an environment that isn't

necessarily made for you, because a lot of these setups

just aren't made to accommodate women, sometimes you get in

there. And like there aren't the right fixtures in the company to

address the mental issues you might be dealing with, or the

right kinds of like HR layers to deal with some of the

discrimination you might face things like this, I have to say,

I feel really lucky to be where I am now, because there were

lots of environments that weren't great for me that I kind

of stuck out. And while I'm saying right now that presence

is a win, it is not a loss. If you leave, pick your fights,

because your well being is sometimes not worth it either.

But I will say that even if you feel like you're struggling, in

general, it's one of those things that I think is important

to internalize as a sign of strength and to see other people

around you that do find excess success. And this is something

that really helped me a lot to see other women in positions of

management in gaming, or as developers and things like this,

this really helped me because it reminded me that I could do

this, that someone has done it before. But this is not in fact

impossible, even though it feels impossible. And then if you're

hitting a stone wall, where you are that maybe the door is

somewhere else, you know that maybe it's just about a change

of perspective or a change of place. And that it's still

possible. It's not always your skills, I had a really great

degree and went to a really great program. And it still was

not enough for people, I urge pretty much anybody in my

position to not immediately buy it if someone lays it down on

your skills, because a variety of skills are required in this

space, all the skills, almost almost all of the skills, there

is a place if you want to be here. So this is what I would

have to say you have to keep in mind in general. And then

secondarily that mental health is first. So I mean, if it's not

working, it doesn't mean that doors closed forever, right. But

if this is not healthy, then you're going to have problems

anyway.

I think that's all important just because like I

had graduated from an elite university with a bachelor's and

a master's and applied for, I think 120 jobs and got one call

back. So it's like it doesn't matter what your qualifications

are sometimes like, there's a little bit of luck involved.

There's a little bit of just continuing to try involved.

Certainly things never go the way you want them to. And I

actually want to talk a little bit more about that because you

you've mentioned your education. You mentioned you're a games

journalist. I know you had a couple other positions before

joining Riot and I know that you're very close to actually

leaving the games industry before joining riot So what has

been the thing that's kind of kept you going kept you in the

games industry? I know that this position getting this position

was kind of one thing. But also what has this kind of variety of

experiences? How has that been able to help you where you're

currently at?

It starts with my humanities degree that everybody

told me was useless. I'm just kidding. Okay. But did help me,

I would have to say that the thing that kept me going was

really remembering how much it meant to me to see other people

thriving in the space is really what kept me going. I refused to

have to take a job where I wasn't in super enthusiastic

about what I was working on. And so even when I was considering

leaving the gaming industry, that was still a focus for me,

like making sure that I'm close to something I love, and like

you said, at the end of the day, that worked out, but it was

really about focusing on evidence to disprove what was

becoming an overly negative assumption that I had that I

would not find success or happiness in the space because

there was just so much difficulty. So again, focusing

like on those examples, and really trying to gather the will

to find a way no matter what I think one thing that's amazing

about the industry is that there are so many approaches to

sticking around and finding a fit. And even if you feel like

your best strength is like scheduling things. Hello,

esports, this is a

nice need to be organized. I'm Harry Bay. So

yes, you're out there and build an organization?

Absolutely, absolutely. There is a place and this is

this is I would say, what kept me going the most? Well, I feel

very positive about my experience. In general, I will

say it wasn't always very clear what the positive was, it can be

very easy to like latch on to the negative examples or the

negative things that are happening in the space, but they

are people trying really, really, really hard to fix this.

And there are people who are willing to do the hard work to

do it, even if it doesn't always look like the right thing. And

this harkens back to my comment about equity and how sometimes

things have to be set up a little bit differently, putting

in the extra work to find more women putting in the extra work

to find people of varying cultural backgrounds. There are

people out there doing that this is not a done deal for the

gaming industry. Even if you hear like really terrible

stories. There's so much happening, there's really so

much happening. And this is this is what had me holding on

speaking of kind of like holding on getting

through background, all that stuff. The last question is what

I'm so excited to ask you about. I've been thinking about this

since I met you. I'm super pumped to talk about this. Given

that your path has been unconventional, I definitely

want to talk a bit about you studying German, which hasn't

come up yet. I would love to talk about how how or if that's

helped in your career. And I'm asking for three reasons. One is

that I also love languages and I have studied Russian and I speak

Spanish pretty proficiently, it was just really fun, I think

learning to is that I think languages can be a great way to

learn a lot of skill sets, including like literal

communication and patience when you don't have the words. And

three, I think this is kind of an important lesson in in what

you just said and pursuing what you want to pursue, and what

you're good at and what you're passionate about. Just because

the caveat, of course is that you have to have the means and

the resources to indulge in that kind of learning. But yes, so

let's talk about German. The fact that you live in Germany's

I'm assuming that you actually use the language that you

studied, and how it may have helped you in your career.

Yes, there are so many layers to that. But I think like

their key layers. So like as a person learning German, which is

a pretty difficult language, honestly taught me a lot about

how language and its conventions can give you a lot of insight

into the way a culture is set up as well. And people have like a

lot of stereotypes about Germans, you know, being

obsessed with rules and stuff. I mean, the language has a lot of

rules. I'm not gonna lie. But there's also like a frankness

and an honesty to the language. You're

talking to a Russian speaker. So like it's

cool. Exactly,

exactly. So it's one of those things that helped me get

into the culture so easily. Which sounds really nice because

it's German. But actually, when you look at how one language

translates itself onto its culture, you realize that

there's so much that you don't know about other cultures. Of

course, you have this assumption Anyway, okay, like I'm not I'm

not Chinese, for example. So I don't know a lot about Chinese

people and Chinese culture, of course, but I mean on different

there's like a different layer where you realize how much

complexity there is to things like language barriers, and

intention, and like the way someone approaches

communication, one One culture might prefer more explicit

context for things, another culture might, you know, perform

more implicit context. There's a really great book called the

Culture Map about this, by the way, I love it. But language to

me has always been super important to understanding how

to communicate with other people, even if you're not

speaking their language. And I have to say that for me, this

first gave me the competence to be able to leave the US and to

pursue a career in Germany, because in general, I just

became less afraid of not knowing, I became more confident

about not making assumptions about my surroundings, and kind

of just leaning in to where I am. And then immersing myself in

the in the context. I mean, there's still things that I

prefer as an American, but I feel far less judgy, about

things that don't match up, for example. And when it comes to my

work, I would say I've been lucky to work in global

companies. And when we say global here, we mean that they

speak English. But this does not stop me from speaking German

with my German coworkers, which is always really fun, because

nobody expects me to speak German. This is probably for a

variety of reasons. But I do enjoy the initial surprise when

people realize that I do understand German fluently. And

one thing that helps with my work at Riot specifically, is

that AMEA has so many countries in it, and no, I do not speak

the language of all of those countries. However, it has made

me realize the importance of extending the presence of the

tournament, not just as it is, but in ways that leverage

national identity a bit better in those spaces. We have so many

people playing the game, for example, in Turkey. And I've

been thinking about ways that we can like highlight the stories

of players in Turkey, for example, highlight the stories

of the teams in Turkey, or even as simple as we have regions

that don't tend to get broadcast in their language. Can we get a

broadcast in their language this year? You know, that kind of

thing. So my openness with German, and hopefully other

languages one day, I'm looking, I'm trying to hit five by the

time I'm 40. But hey, I don't know, I think that my general

awareness and the setup has helped me a lot with just having

a more flexible and fluid approach to how we can adapt and

experience grown in a US based company to the regions that are

in EMEA where we have already a bunch of really amazing teams

participating. But the experience itself has not

necessarily adapted itself to the range of cultures yet, I

think that are in the space. And I'm looking forward to like

amping that up, you've already done such a great job of making

sure that they're like, multi language broadcasts, but I feel

like there's so much more potential and I'm like, really

looking forward to tapping into that, and maybe learning another

language along the way. I don't know.

Yeah. So I wanna I want to do some like rapid fire

questions really quick, just because now I You have made me

so curious about a couple things. First, did you move to

Germany first, or get the job with riot and then move to

Germany?

Okay, Germany first 2016? Yes. Crazy. That's

awesome. So you've been there for a while. Second,

what are the five languages you're looking to learn

Portuguese, Brazilian, Portuguese? Korean, Japanese,

Russian, and probably an African language if I can. Oh, we're one

dying language. And African languages are a dying language.

Because I want to like, yeah, keep it out. Let it die credit.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, makes total sense. Well, if you ever need a

Russian speaking partner, I am here for you. And if you ever

learn any of the Romance languages?

Oh my gosh, yes, I will let you know.

That's awesome. 30. If you had to recommend

another language for people to learn, what would it be?

I would recommend German. Yeah. Everybody says

don't learn German. You should learn German German is great.

German is great. Everyone. German is great.

Good to know. Okay. Of course. Do you count?

Or how? I don't know exactly how to phrase this. But we'll we'll

get into it. Do you count programming languages as

languages?

I'm gonna I'm wondering if the listener will be critical

of this answer. I know a programming language. And I do

not consider it a language. I know people put this on like

their OKCupid profiles. I know C++. This is not LinkedIn. Okay.

Programming languages are not languages. Sorry.

Okay. What about what about made up languages?

What if you're Florence I'm losing all the names of them,

but a whole from things like Lord of the Rings.

Actually, I think these are more legitimate as like

language options and programming languages like Simlish for

example, I know Some very fluent English speakers if you're a

service fan, then you know another language. The language

from the like Game of Thrones, I think both Rocky. Okay, some

people know Dothraki Yes, fictional languages are a yes

for me.

Okay, so we are yes on fictional languages, no

programming languages, and very positive on German as language.

Yeah. Yes. Got a not biased at all.

Yeah, right? Definitely not. Okay. Well with

all that in mind, I am going to, hopefully very quickly summarize

everything that we talked about today, we started off with what

you're doing a game changers and providing competitive space for

women and valorant. And how it was natural, just because

there's so many women who are interested in playing competing

and building skills. If you look at the game space as a whole,

the issues are replicating themselves, whether it's a newer

game or an older game. And whether it's inadvertently or

intentionally, there's kind of this perpetual feed into the

problems just because we haven't necessarily addressed the

structures yet, in order to help that creating visibility, being

open about the problems can actually help solve them. In

order to help that creating safe spaces is critical. Eventually,

the hope is that you won't need that safe space because the

competitive environment will be balanced. But until then, what

game changers does and what creating that space can do is it

helps women and other marginalized people start off on

a footing where they can actually learn from their, from

their mistakes, learn through trial and error, learn just as

in the way that everybody learns competitive play. But without

that toxicity, without the difficulty needing to keep up

without the imposter syndrome, all the other things that keep

people from progressing further and finding more opportunities.

We talked a lot about problem curation, and what we had talked

about when I first met you, which was equality versus

equity. The problem now, while equality is definitely still a

problem in a lot of spaces, there are more opportunities out

there for women, but there's not necessarily inequity and how

women are able to take advantage of those opportunities, how

they're able to take advantage and even finding them building

the skills for them. All of that stuff that's out there. So it's

like, you know, giving someone a to me, it's almost like giving

someone manual car when they only drive automatic, and it's

like, well, you have a car now it's like but well, kind of need

to learn the manual part. That was also a very spontaneous

metaphor on my part. The problem is bigger than gaming, and it

goes into tech. So what you've been finding with programs,

sponsors, collaborators, partnerships, all that stuff, is

that companies are really excited to partner and then the

game changers program itself. And other programs like it are

having ripple effects further into not only the games

industry, but the tech industry. From the team perspective. So a

lot of different levels of organization. There's diversity

in players, there's diversity and competition levels. There's

all kinds of different people coming in, that you're meeting

with and bringing into game changers. In order to meet the

needs of everyone from casual to the highly professional. It's

important to constantly be evolving, constantly be

listening to feedback, doing that professional dream thing

that you do. And for the more competitive teams, there needs

to be more competition and more players at that higher level

competition. So growing the skills and sharing the knowledge

is what's happening at those uppermost levels and to try to

get more people into those uppermost levels. When you said

that it actually reminded me of Gino Arema, who is the coach of

the UConn women's basketball team. And UConn was so dominant

for so long that they're talking about removing them from the

NCAA tournament. And he said, No, no, you're not going to

automatically let us win, everyone else needs to get

better. And that's kind of what I think about with this. Adding

more competition to those high levels is great when trying to

get into the games industry. We talked a lot about your

background, and how you actually got in. Not everyone is a

developer, you can be a non technical person, women and

other underrepresented people have to consistently show their

knowledge. And I met was surprised at that knowledge, you

noted that you went to an awesome game development program

at NYU and worked as a games journalist and are still fending

off people who are surprised at what you know about games. But

being there being in the room showing off your knowledge being

present is valuable. Even if it takes you a long time, even if

the company goes under, even if there aren't great structures in

place being there is a win. Of course, you added the important

caveat this is for as long as you can maintain your mental

well being and are are relatively happy with your

position. We ended up with a discussion on languages, which

is my absolute favorite learning language can help you feel

comfortable with not knowing things with learning how to

communicate in all kinds of different ways with not making

assumptions about your surroundings, and it can help

you in being confident in building a career outside of the

US which you did and moved six years ago to Germany, which is

awesome. So the last section that we talked about, I'm going

to change a little bit just because you have done an awesome

job so far of reflecting on your career and on getting into games

and on being present. So I want to really actually direct this

at like your teenage self So what is one thing you would like

to tell your teenage self about getting into the gaming industry

and being successful? Like before, you know, any of the

experience that you've built up?

Um, yeah, this is a really great question. And one

that I get kind of often actually, when I was a teenager,

I didn't even consider working in games, because it just didn't

look like there was any possibility for me to work in

games, I grew up playing games only with the guys in my life,

never any of the girls, I didn't think I was ever going to

understand computers well enough to work in games. So this

question is always like, very emotional for me, because it

just wasn't something that was even in my head. I didn't I

loved games, then. And I wasn't even considering working with

them. So one of the most important things I would have to

say to my teenage self is that just because you don't see it

doesn't mean it doesn't exist. This is one really important

thing. I think, when you grew up kind of skeptical, like me

interested in the sciences, you rely a lot on things that are

present, I think you want evidence. So being the evidence

driven little girl I was for most of my high school life, I

didn't consider it. So first of all, yes, it's there, it's

possible. If you really want this, you can do it without the

illusion that it will only take hard work, because it might take

more than that it is possible. And I think my favorite thing

about being able to do this position as well links to this,

because I think that there are also women out there who play

and love valorant. And don't even consider a professional

career because of what they see, which is major teams with all

male rosters, there isn't a rule saying it has to be that way, it

just is that way, this is what they see. So they have no

interest in engaging because they don't think they fit or

that they're not good enough, or that it might be too hard. And

as a teenager, I didn't see that I didn't think I would ever be

good enough to be a programmer, I didn't think I was smart

enough keen enough. Nothing that can that can be developed that

can be grown. You know, you don't have to be born into the

perfect predisposition to have that job and the driving factor

for it in general. And what I would love to let teenage Ashley

know is that actually loving it enough to one tip is also

something it also has value. And it is essentially that passion

and desire to be in the space to work with games translates to

something that a lot of people who maybe found it really easy

to get a job in the industry, or just thought it made sense

because they were offered the job might not have which is this

incredible resilience to the adversity that you might face,

the creativity that comes from being just so passionate about

something that you know it as well as you might know, a

relative or a close friend, this flexibility, this

imaginativeness that comes with being very passionate about

something is so important. And at the end of the day, if you're

able to convey that and a cover letter or convey that and your

career trajectory, like me going from QA to data science, to

journalism, whatever, to show that I'm willing to do these

things just to be near something I love that this too is

something it's not a sign that you don't know enough to be

there despite what you might hear or feel, or what you might

even be telling yourself that it is actually your advantage. This

is your skill, this resilience and this love of the space is a

skill and it will translate into other skills and it will

translate into a presence that people will eventually come to

see that they cannot do without that they will want you to be in

their space to to create great games or create an awesome

tournament or whatever that ends up being. I think that this

would be probably the most important thing I would say to

teenage Ashley as well as a lot of other things about like guys

and life but definitely this

actually thank you so so much for coming on. Where

can people find you follow you learn more about game changers

learn how to sport game changers, all that good stuff,

plug everything

Yeah. Okay, everything you need to know about where to

find me is that my username on Twitter is my name with no

vowels. So Ashley Washington, but just remove all the vowels

and you will find me on Twitter. And if you find me on Twitter,

you will also find a link to my website. So if you would rather

check out my website, you will find it there. But I recommend

starting there and maybe if we connect I will tell you where

else you can find me. Twitch maybe tick tock I don't know. My

tick tock username is different because not everybody's ready

for tick tock Ashley. But hey, who knows?

I'm not ready for Tiktok you could have just

stopped there.

No, you gotta get with it. Come on.

Oh, that's a whole other data privacy issue. We

don't have time for

that. Oh, no, thank you. This was really great. I'm

happy to spread game changers. Yes. And actually,

yes, yes. Spreading in a good way too. And

all the best senses of the word. Yeah. Um, for all listeners out

there, be sure to leave those five star ratings and reviews

and helps other people find the show. Check out other holodeck

media podcasts including meta business and business of

esports. I'm on Twitter, Instagram and LinkedIn at

Lindsey pass. I am not on tick tock. You can catch me Wednesday

afternoons on the business of esports live after show and you

can catch this podcast in your feed every

week. Thanks for joining us here on meta woman.

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