Learning to Thrive Beyond Pornography use was the greatest challenge of our life and marriage. It had rocked my self confidence, tainted all of the most important experiences of my life and become the most impossible challenge I had.

With this podcast or at https://www.GetToThrive.com you'll learn about the struggle, how to overcome pornography use, and where to find additional resources to begin to thrive beyond pornography with your spouse.

At some point I took a step away from all the 12 step meetings and councilors and started to figure out my own brain, to look at my issue as something that I had the answer to and I was going to figure it out. Here I share those lessons and give you the power to start your own journey free. Whether you struggle with unwanted pornography use or are the spouse or partner, whether you feel stuck or just don't know where to start, here I will teach you principles, tools and skills that you can use today to change how you think and, in the end, what you do.

You'll hear interviews with my spouse, with experts on human sexuality and with former and current pornography users on how you can overcome your own struggle with addictive behavior.

The Thrive Beyond Pornography podcast will bring new perspective to your struggle and keep you coming back to improve all aspects of your life. (formerly, The Self Mastery Podcast: Overcome Pornography Forever)

Episode 152

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Darcy: Hi guys.

Zach Spafford: Hey everybody. This week we are, we're, I like this episode.

I, Darcy and I have been working on it today and it's one of those episodes that I think is going to give you some real actionable things that you can do to change your life. The, there's this question that I get it a lot. And it's, how can I get my wife to trust me again? So there's no good answer, except for this one.

You cannot make your wife trust you again. Uh, you don't have control over your wife's trust in you. All you can do is be somebody that she can trust. Which means don't commit to things that you for sure can't follow through on. Be honest. And each of these revolves around an honest presented position of yourself, but probably not in ways that you've ever thought of before.

So we're going to talk about three things that you can do. Number one is going to be let go of outcomes. Number two is integrate your private self with your presented self. And we've talked about that a little bit on the podcast, but we're going to dive into that from an honesty position. And then number three is hear what your partner is saying.

And make the argument for them about your behavior. We're going to dig into that here in a minute. Let's start with let go of the outcomes. This is very much about letting go of what it is that you're trying to get done. Letting go of, so for me, it was letting go of managing. Darcy's feelings. A lot of us have been working to manage our partner's feelings.

This is something that is really trackable and leads to fundamentally dishonest ways of interacting with your partner. I had a client who, when he, he said, when I speak with my wife, I'm often looking to figure out a way to present my side in a way that is least likely to have her blow up or get upset.

And that is him managing her and not being real, not being honest, not being willing to let go of the outcome.

Darcy: In that example, what he's really doing there is, in a way, he is trying to manage how she reacts to what he's saying, so that His life can also be easier. In the short term, if she reacts the way that is easiest on him, then it, in the short term, makes everybody's life easier.

But I think in the long run, it creates not the kind of intimacy that you are hoping to have.

Zach Spafford: And, and there's no trust there. And I think that, you know, when we get our partner to, to, you know, behave the way that we want them to behave for a short term gain. The long term problem is that we, we have these outcomes that we can't control.

So letting go of that outcome in the short term is gonna be, it's gonna seem really costly, but in the long run, it's going to create a sense that she can trust what it is that, that you have to say. And I think another way that this shows up is saying yes to our partner when what we really mean is no and vice versa.

So, the, the second thing that you need to do in letting go of the outcomes is saying no to your spouse when that's your actual true position. We have to be willing to tell our partner no, rather than trying to find the answer that will keep the peace, make her happy, or keep you from getting in trouble.

Darcy: This goes along with the idea that, you know, if mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy. So if you're constantly trying to placate your wife, that again is not going to create the results that you want in the long run. Oftentimes your partner can track when you're telling them what it is that they want you to hear.

Yeah.

Zach Spafford: And I think that you like it in the moment. Like if I say yes to you and you're like, yeah, he's given me what I want, but it's really a hollow victory. There've been a number of times In our lives where I've said yes, and it's really been a hollow victory for Darcy, and sex is one of those ways that that happens, especially for men.

It's a really hollow victory when our partner says yes to us. In the bedroom, but it's not, she's not really, there's no desire there. It's just servicing.

Darcy: And I know for me, you know, if there's something that I really want and Zach just gives into me, it doesn't feel the same to me. It, it, it typically doesn't feel good to me.

And in the long run, it affects how I feel about myself because if he's just saying yes to me to pacify me, I can feel that. And then, um, In the long run, it just feels really crappy.

Zach Spafford: This isn't, yeah, I mean. Because more

Zach Spafford: Exactly. And I love that this is a, this is really a two way street. And next week we're actually going to talk about how partners can, or the, the wives can trust again. This particular issue saying no, when that's what you mean, but also saying yes, when that's what you mean is really important too often.

I think we do, we try to conform to each other's needs and wants and beliefs and that sort of thing, instead of being the true version of us that we. want to be. That is us. And that's a really important thing to be able to say, no, this is really what I feel. No is the answer for me. But that also means that you have to be willing to deal with the consequences of that up front.

I think another thing that goes along with this is being more circumspect about what you tell your partner. Don't just say yes because you think it's what your partner wants. And really be careful in agreeing to any sorts of plans of actions or, you know, because you feel like you're supposed to or you're in that one down position of having messed up, especially around pornography, but in general.

If you're telling your partner what they want to hear, Then you want to take a step back from that. If you think telling them what they want to hear is, is the right thing to do, take a step back from that and ask yourself, what's my true position? What's the, what's the truth here for me? And how can I convey that in an honest and open way?

Darcy: I think it's also important to recognize that there is still compromise in marriage. This isn't like just a hard, fast rule, like, Always say no if you don't want something, to do something necessarily, because I, I do think there's room for compromising and, and give and take in a marriage, so that's not what we're referring to.

Right, for instance, we

Zach Spafford: have cats. And I'm a hard no on that, but I haven't taken the cats, you know, to the pound or anything. So there's this, it's an honest process of being open and willing to negotiate that. But when it comes to, especially around pornography, when it comes to your partner saying, well, you need to do X, Y, and Z.

And your only answer is, yeah, I'll just do whatever you tell me. Because otherwise I'm gonna be in trouble and you're in that one down position and it feels like it's a you know You're being dictated to that's a moment to take some courage on and say I totally recognize what I've done here Also, I I don't know that I can take on what you're asking me to take on Maybe it's something I can do in the future, but right now, I don't have that in me, and I don't know what that looks like in every relationship.

But I know that's, you know, Oh, we got to go to Twelve step meetings, or we got to go to, you know, counseling, and we got to go to, we got to read our scriptures every day. I have a client who his My wife, when he messes up, his wife like goes on this tear, of how they're going to be more righteous, and it's like, twice a day prayer, and we're going to talk over the phone about scriptures, and we're going to read scriptures twice a day, and we're going to dowhich are all wonderful things, but it's a real disruption in their, in the actual flow of their life, and it becomes this like, I have to fix this right now, instead of just like, Taking a step back and saying, yes, I totally see why you're trying to do that.

I see what, what's the value there for doing that right now. This or this, or this doesn't really fit and being real clear and circumspect about what you agree to and what you say to your partner. And then this, I think, is the number one thing within, uh, within letting go of the outcomes is being willing to disappoint your partner if it's the more honest position.

If your partner asks you to never look at porn again, saying yes, even if that's what you want to say, might actually undermine the trust in the relationship that you're trying to create.

Darcy: I know in the beginning of our journey with pornography, I wanted Zach to never look at porn again. And so I, after there was an episode, I would always try and get him to commit that he was never going to look at porn again.

Zach Spafford: Yeah, and I didn't have those skills. And there was no way for me to say Yes, you know about that from an honest position,

Darcy: but you would

Zach Spafford: I would say yes Yeah, you would say yes and

Darcy: then you know I'd find it again and then it was like even more of a blow because it was like I Was putting all my trust in him that he was going to do what he said.

He

Zach Spafford: yeah So it's gonna do you know and we'll talk about this probably next week But if you're the wife asking for things that you know aren't possible is definitely going to undermine the trust in your relationship because you're asking for your partner to do something that they don't yet know how to do.

So there, you know, it's a two way street through this whole thing, but letting go of the outcome is a really important component of this trust process that you're going to be working through.

Darcy: I know for me, I would rather Zach tell me honestly what it is that he is doing or going to do than lie to me about it.

Just to keep me happy.

Zach Spafford: Well, I think that you've come to that position over time.

Darcy: Yeah.

Zach Spafford: Not that that really what I think in the beginning, every wife is like, I want you to be absolutely honest with me and I want you to never make a mistake again. And I think that that is those two things, while they're not mutually exclusive in all things, that's really tough in the beginning.

Especially if you're working through this process in an open way.

Darcy: Yeah, but I'm just referring to things outside of pornography. So like if you say that you're going to go and And I would say, fix the toilet in the trailer because it's leaking. And because that was one of the things that was on the list of things we needed to do.

And then I walk in and you're like laying in the trailer, watching a movie. This didn't happen. I'm just hypothetically, although our toilet is leaking in our trailer, but then I, I would be upset about that. Whereas if he was like, I'm just going to go watch a movie. I would probably still be kind of upset or annoyed if he was like, I'm just going to lay here and watch a movie because You know, we have this whole list of things to do, but I would rather him, in the long run, be honest up front, than, you know, catch him in a lie later.

Zach Spafford: Yeah, so I think this is, this is something that we often find ourselves doing, is hiding. Uh, men who are struggling with pornography, I find that hiding is a pretty normal thing. And what I mean by hiding is We are not integrated in our private self with our, with our presented self, with the person that we share with our partner.

And that's actually number two, integrate your private self with your presented self. And really what this is, is say what you're doing and do what you say. So for instance, if you know, you're at work and you say you're leaving work at five o'clock, then you have to do that. This is, this is like doing what you say from, from the previous, previous.

component, but it's really, I want to emphasize the cost here. You have to be willing to pay the cost of whatever it is that you say you're going to do. And, you know, you can often rationalize that, but whatever it is that you tell your partner you're going to do. That's what you, you end up doing. And I think the other component of this is, is emotional.

Your presented self, or your, your private self, the person that you are when you're alone with yourself, you have to be willing to open up and share that person with your partner. And emotionally, men are not super good at it. We're really not good at that. To be honest, it's, it's not been something that we've been taught and it's not been something that we've practiced.

So there's a lot of practice that goes into, you know, being willing to say to your partner, this is how I've been feeling today. And you don't have to put it on them. And so one of the, one of the exercises that we do in the, in the membership is this thing where we say, Where you go and you tell your partner how you felt all day for, you know, take five minutes and do it.

So you just say, this is, this is what I've been feeling today. How I've been emotionally, how I've been physically, what, you know, what I accomplished. Just a download of how I felt. And in doing that, what you're doing is you're saying, this is the person I am when I'm alone with me. And I wanna share that with you.

You know, you don't do that with everybody. You don't do that with your boss, you don't do that with, you know, maybe church people, but you definitely. If you want to create trust within your relationship, being able to say, honey, this is how I felt today. And this is what's real for me when I'm alone with me.

That is a huge component of integrating your private self with the person that you present to your partner.

Darcy: I remember when you worked at an office and you would call me and you would say, this is how I'm feeling right now. I'm really feeling like I want to look at pornography right now. And on my side, I appreciated that honesty and him being truthful was great, but then I still had to manage myself on my side because obviously I didn't love hearing that he wants to look at porn, right?

Zach Spafford: And I think a lot of. Spouses will say, well, that's not fair. It's not fair that I should have to deal with his emotional state or his desire to do this thing.

And I totally understand that. I think if you are presenting this to your partner, it's not about putting a burden on them. It's not about saying to them, hey, I need you to help me fix this. It's not about them being your accountability person. It's only about telling them what's actually That's all it is, because if, if every time you did that and they came in and they said, Oh, I have to rescue my partner, that would, that would be unfair.

Darcy: Well, in those times, it wasn't like you asking me to solve for it. It was just you expressing what is going on for you. And on my side, I didn't feel like, Oh, I got to step in. I got to fix this. I got to drive to his office and be there to, Protect him and all of that. Well,

Zach Spafford: this was later on in our journey.

Darcy: Yeah.

Zach Spafford: I think early on, I wouldn't have had the courage to say that to you. And I

Darcy: probably couldn't, I, I'm certain I couldn't handle it. Right.

Zach Spafford: Exactly. So, uh, one other component of being the, you know, the integrating the, the person that you are when you're alone with yourself. So your personal self, your inside self with, uh, your outside self, the person that you present to your partner is being willing to reevaluate Renavigate and restate your position and this can be tough.

You know, we have, we pay attention, uh, to a lot of what JFF, Jennifer Finlayson Fife talks about, and oftentimes we see couples who are re evaluating and renegotiating their faith journey, and in that, in this process, this process of what's really going on inside of me, many times you might find that you're going to renegotiate and re evaluate and restate your positions, differently.

Now, whether it's about your faith or whether it's about just what you want in your life, you might be coming to your partner and saying, I'd like to be a little bit more exciting in bed. Uh, not because of porn, but just because I want to be closer to you. I want to have, you know, whatever it is that that looks like.

Darcy: New shared experiences. New

Zach Spafford: shared experiences. That's a great word for it. You're amazing. And all of that Is really just an opportunity to say, I have grown, I am different, and I am learning, and I'm becoming a person that I really like, and I'm willing to share that with you. That renegotiation, that renavigation, that reinstate, restatement of your position, that is, I am, I'm different than I was when we got married, and I want you to know who that person really is.

What's that, uh, maybe it's Esther Perel. I don't remember who Yeah, it's Esther Perel. She says, you're going to be married three times on average in your life, and it might all be to the same person. And that's something that you've got to be willing to be open to. All right, last one. Hear what your partner is saying.

And make the argument for them about your behavior. If you would like to gain the trust of your partner, uh, because I think a lot of us have, through the process of our pornography struggle, lost a great deal of trust, this particular one is, is a really, really important component. And it's, it's about the way that you argue, it's about the way that you are willing to, See your own behavior.

This is, in part, it's a process of self confrontation and creating those winning strategies in your arguments. You can, you can listen to an entire episode on self confrontation. It's, uh, episode number 127, but it really sounds like hearing what your partner's saying. And understanding their perspective on how you are showing up.

And I know, for me, I still have a lot of work to do in this particular arena. Partly because, whenever Darcy brings me something, I automatically want to defend my position. Not because she's necessarily attacking it, but because I don't like feeling like I'm wrong. I like being right and being able to being able and willing to see your behavior objectively and without the need to defend it.

Darcy: Every single person wants to be heard. And so when your partner is willing to hear what you have to say. It gives you a sense that you can trust them, that even if the problem is not going to be solved right then and there, that they're at least listening and trying to understand what it is that you want to do.

Zach Spafford: Absolutely. I, I love this idea. I love this question from people. I think this is a really great, uh, you know, valuable concept of just being able to, like I said, let go of the outcomes, integrate your private self with your presented self, and hear what your partner is saying and making that argument for them.

From your position about what's going on. I think that really opens up a lot of space for your partner to not just be able to trust you, but be able to come to a greater intimacy with you. You know, a lot of the differentiation work that we talk about differentiation being. You know, being a solid person and choosing closeness with your partner.

That is a lot of what you're doing here. You're saying, I'm going to become more solid. I'm going to become a better person. And as a result, I'm going to choose closeness with my partner and they can come and choose closeness with me if that's what they want to do as well. This is a fantastic.

Darcy: And I know for me, it, it was extremely important on this journey that Zach Spafford, Did what he said he was going to do, even if it had nothing to do with pornography, especially if it had nothing to do with pornography, right?

It was that I could trust that his word means something.

Zach Spafford: Yeah, and I had to get more willing to disappoint you because I had to be willing to say what was actually, what I actually thought was going to happen instead of trying to find, well, what is it that she wants? So I can just tell her that. And nobody, I don't think anybody wants that.

Like you definitely didn't want me to be that, that person. So I really appreciate you coming on this week, Darcy and everyone next week, we're going to talk about how you can trust again. And that's, I think a really, I think that's going to be a good episode. So share this with your friends, share it out, you know, let people know that this is what we're talking about.

Cause I think it's, I think it's a really important topic, uh, not just for people who are struggling with pornography, but really anything in your life where you, where you're struggling to create the relationship that you want. This is a really good place to start. All right. Thanks for listening. Have a great week and we will talk to you next week.

Darcy: Bye.