Is the job market really as bad as the headlines say? How can researchers better understand and communicate their skillsets? And how can they manage the anxiety and uncertainty that comes with the current employment climate?

In this episode, host Taryn Bell talks with co-host Ruth Winden, as well as King’s College London's Laura Johnson and Anna Favalessa, hosts of the Careers in Your Ears podcast.

Together, they unpack:

• How misleading data and clickbait can amplify researcher anxiety, while the data might not actually be as bad as we think
• Researchers' misconceptions about the non-academic job market, including the common refrain that "I'm not qualified for anything other than research"
• The emotional work of career change, and the challenges and benefits of supporting researchers through tricky career transitions

If you're a researcher developer or careers consultant interested in how you can better support your researchers' career transitions, this is the episode for you!

Find out more:

Listen to the Careers in Your Ears podcast via Spotify, Apple or wherever you listen to podcasts. We particularly recommend the following episodes:

• S15 Ep2 | Q&A | Research is my only passion - what else can I do?
• S14 Ep3 | Q&A | I've applied for over 50 jobs: what am I doing wrong?

Learn more about the team behind the podcast:

• Laura's LinkedIn
• Anna's LinkedIn
• KCL Careers
• LinkedIn - Kings Careers Network for Researchers

If you've enjoyed listening to this episode, please consider leaving a review on your favourite podcast app, via Podchaser, or by submitting an online review form.

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Follow us on Bluesky: @researcherdevleeds.bsky.social (new episodes are announced here), @openresleeds.bsky.social, @researchcultureuol.bsky.social

Connect to us on LinkedIn: @ResearchUncoveredPodcast (new episodes are announced here too).

If you would like to contribute to a podcast episode get in touch: [email protected]

If you have enjoyed listening to this episode, please consider leaving a review on your favourite podcast app, via Podchaser, or by submitting an online review form.

✍ Podchaser

✍ Online Review Form

Follow us on Bluesky: @researcherdevleeds.bsky.social (new episodes are announced here), @openresleeds.bsky.social, @researchcultureuol.bsky.social

Connect to us on LinkedIn: @ResearchUncoveredPodcast (new episodes are announced here too).

If you would like to contribute to a podcast episode get in touch: [email protected]

Welcome to the Research Culture Uncovered podcast, where in every episode we explore what is research culture and what should it be? You'll hear thoughts and opinions from a range of contributors to help you change research culture into what you want it to be.

Ask almost anyone nowadays and they'll tell you it's a tough job market out there. Whether in academia or looking elsewhere, it can feel to many like the odds are against them. This isn't helped by lots of slightly inflammatory news stories about people applying for hundreds of jobs without success.

However, is this all true? Is the job market really as bad as it seems? And what role can researcher developers and Careers Consultants play in helping research communities to think and plan for their next role? In this episode, I'm delighted to be joined not only by my co-host, Ruth Winden, Careers with Research Consultant at the University of Leeds, but also Laura Johnson and Anna Favalessa from King's College London's Careers in Your Ears podcast.

Laura is a Careers Consultant for researchers. Um, she's been at King's for three years supporting doctoral researchers and research staff, having made her own career change from teaching. She's also just been shortlisted for the Innovation and Inclusion Award at the upcoming Vitae Conference, so congratulations, Laura.

Anna is the team leader for the Career Consultants for Researchers team, and has been supporting researchers at King's for six years, having worked as a Careers Consultant in several other London universities beforehand. She's presented at Vitae, REDS, and the British Academy, and is passionate about the team providing nuanced and evidence-informed support that enables all researchers to navigate the hidden curriculum and a somewhat turbulent job market.

Together, they work on Careers in Your Ears, which is an amazing podcast that combines inspiring career conversations with guests and practical Q&A episodes to help researchers navigate their careers both in and beyond academia. Welcome to all of you.

So Anna, I'm gonna start with you because I know from our prior discussions that my first question is one that you feel quite strongly about. All those headlines about the turbulent job market, how true are they actually?

That is a really good question. I mean, people say there's no smoke without fire, don't they? And I think w-we've met enough people, and I'm sure you have too, um, to know that it is a tough job market, and there is absolutely no getting away from that.

I suppose the thing that I feel really strongly about is these headlines that make it sound even worse than it is, um, and that when you really look at the data that they're drawing on and the research that they say they're using, often it's painting a much worse picture than, than the reality. So there were some that did the rounds, that's done the rounds a couple of times.

There have been these really attention-grabbing headlines about this huge collapse in, in, in, in the job market, particularly in graduate jobs and early, early career jobs. And, and then it turns out that it's all based on sort of, um, some of these sites that really collate loads of jobs in one go, and actually a lot of the time what that's reflecting is the fact that employers are being completely overwhelmed by the number of applications, and they're actually choosing not to advertise on those platforms anymore.

Um, so you know, it, it is actually reflecting a completely different, uh, truth. It's n-it's not all down to, you know, a lack of jobs. So I think it's just about looking at the headlines and really uncovering what, what do they actually mean.

And I guess this is a question to all three of you. In your role supporting researchers with their careers, how often or how much time do you spend essentially trying to provide that, that context on the job market to researchers?

Do you find that researchers are reading these headlines and getting it into their heads that it, it is really difficult and, and that they've got no chance?

Yes, def-- absolutely. I, I think that more often than not now I'm seeing appoint- one-to-one appointments, uh, with researchers that start in that vein.

Um, you know, far more than we've ever seen before. There's sort of high levels of, of anxiety in, in our clients who'll say, "Oh, you know, I've read this," or "Somebody said to me today, in fact, I've, I've just been seeing online all my friends sort of worrying about it as well." I think there's that- Yeah ... sort of anxiety within the community almost that, that's bubbling up.

Um, so yeah, I, I'm-- we, we address it in workshops, again, more so than, than we ever have, have done before in terms of addressing some of that, that nuance a- as Anna's just covered.

It's not just the researchers, but also it's not just the headlines they're seeing, but also I'm getting people in appointments and workshops who, who are being told by, by their friends and peers who are maybe a year or two ahead of them that are job hunting and maybe finding it a bit tricky.

But of course, they might not be job hunting in exactly the same field or for exactly the same job or in exactly the same geographical area. So, you know, some of that isn't comparable. But also, um, they're also getting it, I think, from academics and other people coming from a really- To prepare them for a tough job market and make sure they're thinking about all their options.

But I think what can happen is that then they feel like they're being told that there aren't any jobs in any of those places. Um, and so that can feel-- I th- I think there's a sort of compounding effect, isn't there, when you're hearing it from lots of different places? Yeah.

I think we're in the ideal situation 'cause we work with so many researchers.

We are aware of people who do land new opportunities and just counterbalancing that- Mm ... genuine worry that people have. Yeah. Uh, I mean, people came to me from the arts and humanities, and they're using the word distress. They're coming to me saying, "In my networks, it's such a shortage and such a dire job market, and we're really panicking."

That they use the word distress, panicking. And it's hard because we can't deny that in certain areas, depending on what, what your specialism is, you know, it's some, some have it easier than others. But it's-- no one will succeed in any job transition if you're in panic mode. So I think a lot of our work is actually really helping the researchers.

Yeah, reassurance to some extent. I, I keep saying to people, "We can do this. We just have to work smarter because it's more competitive." But there's still jobs out there, and we have the advantage. We have plenty of stories of people we support who have found new opportunities, and they just need to hear that as well.

Otherwise, I think they become very desolate and even less- Yeah ... able to make those transitions.

And I think often, you know, with academia, the headlines are about all the f- you know, all the people being laid off, aren't they? And you never get the headlines about all the people being hired. I mean, I remember-- I mean, this year obviously it's slightly worse, but the year bef-- this year it's dropped, I think it's 1%, isn't it, the drop in academic staff.

And the year before, um, Wonkhe did quite an interesting analysis where they, they looked at all the hiring and the firing for academic staff across all of universities in the UK, and it came out as completely equal. So there was, there was no positive or negative effect overall, which is completely different to, you know, the headlines from that year.

But the second part didn't make the headlines. That's the issue, isn't it?

That's the challenge we have. So there are always pockets of people hiring, aren't there? Um, depending on where the grants are going and, and where the, you know, expanding sectors are.

And I think listening to all of you speak, this is, uh, this is a perfect encapsulation of what Careers Consultants and research developers bring to the table. It's this much needed context, because I think often our researchers, they can struggle both to look for, you know, role models, but also to get a realistic idea of the job market because they're surrounded by other people who have stayed in academia.

It may be difficult for them to see beyond those kind of clickbaity type headlines that just serve to, as we've said before, cause anxiety and distress and panic. So Anna, in your role at King's, is there anything that you do in particular to kind of provide a bit more of a balanced and a nuanced perspective?

I think actually looking at the headlines and looking at the data, like I was-- the two examples I've mentioned and trying to work out what it's actually saying and, and, and therefore being able to include that in things like workshops and one-to-one appointments, to be able to give that slightly more nuanced context that might be missing otherwise.

And I think, like Ruth was saying, being able to, um, have case studies of people who have moved into other things, um, or kind of moved out and then moved back again, or I've got, you know, two things going on at the same time, you know, a career in academia and, and some work outside academia and, and those kind of...

I think that's what, um, Laura manages the podcast brilliantly, and I think, you know, it's a lot of what that is doing is showcasing in a really inclusive way all the different ways you can develop a career. Um, and it's not just-- doesn't have to be just a straight line, uh, through academia or a straight line through industry.

It can be sort of a mix of these things. And particularly at the moment, I think we talk a lot to people about that it's okay, I guess, to have that sort of squiggly, a slightly more squiggly career.

Yeah, absolutely. 'Cause I still think there are quite a lot of, um, m- misconceptions. Uh, in particular, one that's come up a few times with researchers recently is that there's still this misconception that once you leave academia, that's it, you can never come back, that it's a one-way journey.

And I think from our perspective at Leeds, you know, we try to make sure that we run things like panel events, which give people a chance to hear- Yeah ... from those people who've had those different career paths and h- and how they found that. One of the things we also tackle, though, and, and Laura, I'm gonna pose this question to you, is, uh, this kind of mentality from researchers who have never been outside of academia or never been outside of research, this idea that I don't know how to do anything other than research.

So how do you as a Careers Consultant tackle that?

Yeah, I think it's a great question, and it's a-- it's definitely a, a question that, that comes up in, in its sort of various forms. Uh, and I think maybe to just backtrack a, a bit before that, I think just carrying on from, from what Anu said, um, there are lots of ways that we can broaden horizons.

Uh, some of the things that you've already said there about panels, about the podcast, about case studies, you know, sharing graduate outcome data as well, like say, you know, saying really explicitly, "This is where people just like you have, have gone on to, and this is, these are the kinds of things that, that they're doing."

Um, you know, we share jobs on our LinkedIn network, you know, really sort of highlighting the, the things that, that are out there. But to your question, I think sometimes there is still a disconnect between, you know, we can do all of these things all of the time, uh, in showcasing all of the wonderful places that, that researchers have gone on to beyond academia.

But I do feel that sometimes there is a sort of, there's a gap between the what and so what. You know, I as a researcher can see that there are l- lots of things that, that other researchers go on to do, but that doesn't quite feel like me. What's this, you know, what does that, what does that mean for me?

And I think that sort of building that bridge is some of the the hardest things that we sometimes have to do and to support them to, to do as well. Uh, and I think that that's easiest done in a, in a one-to-one conversation to be able to unpick some of those things. You know, um, Anu and I had a conversation on our podcast about, you know, if, if research is my, my passion, uh, you know, what else can I do?

And we talked about, let's try and sort of disentangle that, that researcher identity and actually work out what is it about research that you like, and let's see if there are-- let's see where that is happening elsewhere. What is it-- Or, or is it more the, the area in which you're doing the research? I- in which case, let's see what else you could be doing in that, that space.

So I think it's that sometimes it's connecting themselves to all of these wonderful opportunities, and being able to see, see those connections is of- often where you get that sort of aha moment that, that's so exciting when somebody can see themselves, you know, outside of academia, um, if you like.

Yeah. I think absolutely there's, there's a lot that isn't there, kind of trying to work out how you translate your skills in a very specific Place for, and then how you might do that for outside academia.

We find a lot of the time, one of the things that we've-- that, that researchers face, I think, is that academia assesses people in a completely different way. It assesses you based on outputs. So you have a list, don't you? And so if, as a researcher, you're asked to, say, talk about your communication skills, if you answer that question in academia, you do that by saying, "I've got five publications."

Whereas outside academia, that does not count. That does not prove you can communicate. That just proves that you've done five publications. Um, but what they actually want to know is, you know, how did you do that? And did you take your audience into account? And did y- you know, all of those kind of how did you do it, and what was the impact, and did anything change?

And, you know, what difference did you make, you know, in the way that you did it rather than someone else? And I think it's that kind of I think we do quite a lot of that to try and help researchers really see that huge, vast range of, uh, you know, skills and experience they've got, but how to translate it, because it's just a really different, uh, measuring system, isn't it?

I think Ruth and I have had many conversations with people w- saying, "I'm really sorry, but you're gonna have to take your publication list off your CV." And it's those, it's those traditional kind of measures and traditional kind of metrics. To be honest, this is actually the same in, even in academic jobs now, because with the movement, for example, towards the narrative CV, it's less interested in tell me all the publications you have- Yeah

I think there are some things we can definitely... that we do a lot of the time, particularly if you've been applying for PhDs and things like that, it's all about what you have done.

Mm-hmm. And I think when you're applying for a role, particularly in academia, it's all about what you're going to do. And I think sometimes when people make that shift, they make a much stronger application, and suddenly the applications that weren't getting through start to get through. So a lot of this, like, I mean, as we know, is also just about, you know, it is a really tough job market, and there are things you can definitely do that put you in a stronger position for getting...

for managing to get something from that job market.

Yeah.

And I think for, for me as researcher developers, we offer such an important support mechanism here because we do not see them in the light of an academic. So I've just finished- Mm ... with a group, a group program where I had, um, the luxury of working with 12 postdocs, and their contracts are running out in the next 12 to 18 months.

I obviously don't see them from their academic achievement point of view because they're all people who are open to look at alternatives. I see them, you know, in all the beauty and the glory and the things that they have done- Yeah ... and it's absolutely- Amazing, isn't it? ... mind-boggling what these people do.

And, and they just don't see it. They keep measuring themselves against, "Yeah, but I didn't get that publication," or, "I didn't do this," or, "I didn't do that," but then do not recognize, yes, all the transferable skills from their research, but also all these amazing things, whether it's research culture or coaching peers or coaching younger academic...

They, they do so many things, and it takes someone like us to come along and point that out to them, and they look at you in disbelief because it's not what they're being measured against. Still, despite all the changes we're trying to make in the sector, it's always down to the publications and the income generation.

And, and I know it's shifting, but the shift is so slow. So for us to come in and see them as human beings I'm trained to look at people slightly differently, and I can see things that they don't see. And I think that's where I get the greatest satisfaction when you see these aha moments in their... You can just see it in their faces, can't you?

And they realise, "Oh, I, I never thought about it like this." And so any researcher who's listening and who's doing lots of extracurricular activities, whether that's research culture or all this engagement with the public, explaining your research, all these things are so transferable, and we can help you recognise that.

And because a lot of it is about confidence, and that's exactly what they're missing. Anyone who goes through transition, confidence drops. That's just human nature. So we have to really help them see it for themselves how capable they are, and they can take things forward. And then we have these lo- lovely stories of people.

We're so lucky at Leeds. We have all these people, real human beings who know what it takes, and they've been on that route, and we can bring them in and make it real. Because I'm often conscious if I say, "Yes, it's possible," it sounds very different to someone who's made that transition from researcher to something else because they have more credibility, haven't they?

Absolutely. And I think there's, there's so much of what you said there is, is us acting as a sort of conduit, uh, between- Mm ... uh, between the researchers and lots of other things, both there's us and employers. So, you know, y- you saying there that you're talking to your lovely, uh, post-docs and, you know, using excellent coaching skills to bring all of that out.

But also you've got an ear to industry to know also what to listen out for. So we know- Mm ... because we talk to employers, and we, we have all of that labor market expertise, that we can support them in sort of tran- translating some of that. And I think the other ways in which we, uh, you know, act as a sort of connector is within our own institutions as well.

We con- you know, King's is, is enormous and it's, and it offers so many things, and there are so many people in lots of different pockets across the institution doing incredible work to support doctoral researchers, post-docs, research staff. But, uh, you know, it's, it's, it's quite a job to, to corral all of that information, and we try really hard.

You know, we send out monthly newsletters to try and pull in some of that stuff from, from outside of careers and employability. So I think it's also being a... We tr- Anu and I were talking about this, and we were trying to think of what, what is the opposite of a gatekeeper? 'Cause we're trying to be-

Sign poster.

Yeah.

A door opener. Gater. Opportunity enabler. There are many wonderful words- Yeah ... to describe what we do.

So absolutely. So whatever that is, it, that's, that's what we're trying to be, and keeping those sort of flows of, of information and, and bringing, bringing, uh, people in, as you say, um, and bringing them to, to experiences and opportunities as well.

And I think lobbying. Lo- lo- lobbying. Mm. Not... Well, that's- Advocacy ... sounds like quite a big word, doesn't it? But I think advocating for researchers in terms of their access to some of the careers Uh, for us anyway, some of the careers things that are really relevant to researchers now, PhDs get to go on them as well.

So business treks with employers where they get to go to their office and like, you know, look at employer eye to eye and ask them the questions and ask them where researchers would fit in their organization and see where they would be working and all of the-- what the culture's like and those kinds of things.

So getting a really kind of in-depth insight into what it might be like, even just in a day of, of being somewhere else. Um, or the insights program we've got where they get to do a kind of virtual consultancy project. Again, the PhDs now have their own groups that they work in and their own projects that they have that give them that kind of, uh, industry experience, I guess.

So doing some of that, I think, as researcher developers and really advocating for researchers, um, having access to, uh, some of those things in the institutions where maybe they're not originally, you know, part of that, of the cohort.

Mm. So to kind of sum all that up, I mean, there's so much you've covered there already.

It's that, that those aspects of supporting researchers with their confidence, providing a space to be seen, you know, the, the kind of element of being a conduit or a connector. Uh, and, and I would say with that, not just being a connector between researchers and people with experience, but just between the researchers themselves.

I know with the leads some of our group programs, people have said it's incredibly useful to be in a room with other people who are at the same career stage, and it's-- for some of them, it's the, "Oh my gosh, I'm not the only one feeling this way," can be a really powerful thing too. And so that kind of brings me onto my, my next point, Ruth.

A lot of what we provide is not just practical help, but there's also a lot of, I guess, how can I put it, kind of emotion work involved in supporting researchers with their career change, transitions, or even deciding to stay in the same place. So how do you tackle that in your role?

Yeah. It's actually one of my favorite things to do.

And one of the things I love doing is creating a space for researchers, a confidential, a trusted space, because I often find they, they don't have that. Yes, they have colleagues and they have, um, research leaders, and very often the focus is on their, on their research performance. But what they do miss is that confidential conversation, that space.

And I also want to point out, humans don't like change. I think that there is a tendency in us, a preference for things to be stable, and researchers are not any different from anyone else. Change is really challenging, and it brings out fear because it's the fear of the unknown. And so I'm very conscious of that.

A lot of the work I do with postdocs is, yes, I can teach about LinkedIn and CV writing, but without that fundamental Work on being aware it's okay to be fearful, but you can't get stuck there, or you can't get stuck on the, "Oh, I, you know, no one will want me," or, "Who on earth employs researchers out of academia?"

Or, um, a- any of these self-limiting beliefs. We come with these preconceived ideas, and they're really strong beliefs, and if you s- stick in these... stick with these beliefs, it will be very hard to go out there confidently and position yourself to an employer. So, so what I... How I do it is I create safe spaces, trusted spaces, and, and I build the connections between people as well.

As you say, Taryn, you know, there's I'm not on my own. Oh, thankfully I'm not the only one, what a relief. You know, oh, it's normal what I'm going through because everyone thinks, you know, th- they're extra specially, um, debilitated by it all. And then I'm, I'm... I know I'm renowned for, you know, let- let's, um, yeah, let's address the elephant in the room.

So I try and create an atmosphere where we can talk about the fears without them feeling some- you know, maybe a bit embarrassed or something. You know, we all, we, we tackle it head-on and I just try and normalize those conversations. And, and for me, I know if I'm good at one thing, it's helping people spot opportunities.

I'm always... I can, I can see opportunities where they can't, and so creating that opportunity awareness and then little step, step, step by step, and then building their confidence. And for me, that is just the most beautiful thing to see and because it's tough. You know, it, it's a demanding process, and helping people so feel that confidence, you know, the ability that they can express themselves and that they can manage themselves going through that process for me is really, really important.

So yes, we do the, the CV work and the LinkedIn profiles and all the, yeah, the tactical things, but so much is about really helping them get to a stage where they can feel like, "I can actually do this and I can move forward." And it also doesn't have to be perfect. So one thing I noticed is that they all seem to think it's either this in academia as a researcher or it has to be perfect and Perfect doesn't exist and just taking that pressure off them.

Maybe it's a stepping stone job. Maybe it's not ideal, but it's in the right direction. You know, start small and, and helping them speak to people, um, reaching out to people, work shadowing, just getting into those situations and as you said, Anna and Laura, you know, these, the companies getting that contact because I keep saying to them, "Look, we're all human."

I've worked in many different sectors with people across all sectors, and what you find is, yeah, the organisational culture might be slightly different and the time pressure might be slightly different, but at the end of the day, you know, we're all human beings and we work together. Because what you do when you're fearful is you emphasize the unknown and the risks.

What I need to get them to is minimizing that. You know, looking more at what do they have, because otherwise they focus on what they don't have. What are the similarities with certain roles and employers? Because otherwise they will look at the differences, and just help... Otherwise, they get stuck and don't move.

And so that's something I love doing and, you know, when they said to me, "Thank you for believing in us That's just the best feedback for me because if I can believe ... If they feel I can believe in them, and, and I ... It's not that I just say it, I can see it because I can see what they've done. I'll read their LinkedIn profiles, their CVs.

We have conversations. So when we believe in them, they find it easier to believe in themselves. And so a lot of the coaching work that we do, I think, focuses in on that. And I know for some people they say, "Really?" You know, "Is, is that really the important piece?" And for me, it's almost like the foundation because they're all so clever.

They can do a great CV really quickly because they know, you know, they can learn, they apply themselves. But it's the, the self-belief or the s- the lack of self-belief, I think that can get in the way and, and that's the work I find immensely satisfying, even more so than helping them develop these amazing LinkedIn profiles.

However satisfying that is, um, it's, it's shifting, shifting their mindset is, is what really gets me fired up.

So we've talked a lot about what's worked and, and where we found solutions and ways forward. Um, but I guess my final questions to you all are kind of what's missing, what hasn't worked, and where do challenges remain?

And if you don't mind, I'm actually gonna start off by just mentioning something that Anna alluded to very briefly right at the beginning, and that's those two dreaded letters, AI. So how is AI affecting how you do your jobs, the way you talk to researchers, the way you work with researchers?

I have a love-hate relationship with AI, and I think in so many areas in careers it's actually really not beneficial.

It's damaging. So where I think AI can make a huge difference is, for instance, career options If I've learnt to write really good prompts and within, with, uh, within three seconds we have 50 totally suitable career options for people who s- who say to me there are no options. So for anything exploring, um, exploring questions, interview questions, all this kind of stuff.

Where I really think AI is a huge issue is that people think, "Oh, I'll, I'll get AI to write my application," or, "I get AI and write my LinkedIn profile." And we know how bad, how bad the quality is, and it takes anything personal out of it and we just sound like everyone else. So I think we have to be so nuanced in how we help our colleagues embrace AI.

I'm not totally against it, but I really see the limitations. And I must say I also really do not envy employers because there are AI tools that send off 2,000 applications with one press of a button a day. And so who's receiving all those applications? So I, I do think it's really, really hard for employers also to differentiate between who are the people who are potentially really good at this and who are, who are not.

Because if you use AI, everyone looks the same. So yeah, that's my, my take on it. But I also have to admit AI is getting better and better and better, and I might say something different in a year's time or two years' time. Yeah. But so far, I think using AI as a tool and to get started, but please do not ask AI to write your applications.

And there are cases I'm aware of where people put exactly the same question into one of the, their favorite tools, and then the employers get 20 applications with exactly the same answers for each question. Don't do it. You know, you get kicked out of the process immediately

I guess there's two strands, aren't there?

There's, there's the strand that Ruth's talking about, I guess, in terms of how you can use AI to support researchers and also how you can build in how to use AI with researchers and the dos and don'ts and some of that. I think there's also the piece around how, a, a bit like you were saying about, um, the impact on employers of all the AI, and therefore what their behaviors might be because of that.

And then that can, I think, really support researchers in terms of how to navigate the difficult job market. So if you know that researchers-- For example, if you're a cash-strapped institution who's getting inundated with applications for your postdoc, you might not advertise it on jobs.ac.uk anymore, um, or for that, you know, for that short-term post because it's expensive and maybe, and you'd get overwhelmed with applications for a tiny team that's trying to pick people, and maybe actually you'd just put it on your university website or your department newsletter or whatever it might be.

So I think that piece about building the networks becomes increasingly important because AI is overwhel- you know, the applications are overwhelming the employers, and so they're choosing different channels, aren't they? I think a little bit. And so helping researchers navigate some of that I think is useful.

But I also think the other thing is that a lot of the attention-grabbing headlines again are about AI getting rid of all of the jobs. And I think again, if you're a research developer or a Careers Consultant, the information that we're getting is that AI is not getting rid of all of the jobs, not by any stretch of the imagination.

So there are a couple of pockets, aren't there? I think if you're into pure coding, then yes, AI is doing a lot of that now, but they still need people who can understand coding to be able to then do the level up of checking what AI is doing and then improving it. And I think, you know, Charlie Ball, who does a lot of analyzing the stats for the Graduate Outcomes Survey, which is not exactly what researchers might be going into, but gives a sense of the job market at a sort of early career stage, you know, suggests that AI is not, you know, generally decimating the job market.

And there's a really-- There was an excellent researcher that I listened to, um, from America who was also saying the same, that they're not, uh, Zeynep Tufekci, who was also saying they, she didn't, the professor, um, did not see that happening. It is going to change things. It's going to alter things and maybe as Ruth says, you know, it's getting better all the time and maybe, you know, I really wish I hadn't said this on a publicly available podcast in six months' time, uh, because I may be proved wrong.

But even the people that we meet in other bits You know, people that I-- other professionals I meet outside careers have often read a lot of those headlines and are repeating those things Mm-hmm And I think we need to be really-

not repeating those things.

Yeah, absolutely.

Absolutely. And it feels a bit like the job market is, is changing, but it's evolving rather than- Yeah ... these jobs evaporating.

Yeah, absolutely. I think people are expected to use it. But then again, that would come back to a lot of the skills that researchers are developing are around AI, aren't they?

Absolutely. And co- and being able to do their jobs more efficiently and build tools that can do things faster, quicker, better. That's a brilliant skill to have.

We all have to do a lot as researcher developers, challenge ourselves and challenge those we support, um, because the world is moving so fast, and we need to make sure we stay on top of things.

And things are changing so, so, so quickly. But that also makes it very exciting in my view.

So Laura and Anna, what's next, either for the Careers in Your Ears podcast or for your work at King's?

Good question. Certainly for Careers in Your Ears, we want to continue sort of giving voices to, to researchers who have gone on and done exciting things.

Uh, I sort of made a, a mental note to myself a little bit when, uh, Ruth was talking earlier about that, that difficult time, you know, between jobs and also at the start of a job, and I thought, actually, maybe we should, you know, when we're interviewing guests, uh, to, to bring out that uncertainty a bit more.

Mm. I think there's a tendency, isn't there, when you're doing case studies or panel events to sort of go full, you know, exciting jazz hands about it. Like, "Isn't it exciting beyond academia? Look at all these people with these great exciting jobs." And I think probably, uh, f- certainly from my part, we don't do enough of getting them to share what was it like in those first few days and, and what were the challenges, so that we can normalize that thing that, you know, there aren't people out there who have just popped out of a PhD and into a fabulous job, and it was all easy.

Yeah. So I think certainly just, uh, even just from today's conversation, that would be something that I will be taking forward, you know, for, for our podcast. And definitely, um, we have-- Well, I speak for myself. I don't know about Anna. Uh, loved the, uh, the Q&A episodes, which really just gives us- Yeah ... an opportunity to, to speak, um, as, as professionals and, and talk about, deal with some of those questions that, that come up commonly.

But yeah, that's, that's, that's us. That's us.

Uh, yeah. I mean, I think, uh, Laura's invented the Q&A episodes, which are great, and I think so we're gonna keep doing those, uh, like Laura was saying. In terms of the wider things, I think much like this conversation has said, I'm very aware of how useful it is to try and connect researchers with You know, employers particularly outside academia, so trying to really look at how we're doing that.

Um, and we've got, we've put on a couple of, um, new workshops this year really looking at really geared towards those people who are right at the beginning of thinking about what they might want to do. So looking at ... 'Cause we realized a lot of our workshops are kind of focused on, you know, how do you develop a career in academia or beyond academia, or weighing up your opt- those kind of things.

But actually this one's a bit more like, you know, what are my motivations and values, and what are those things underlying that then I think ho- hopefully help people feel quite confident by the end of that day that, you know, about what they like and what they have to offer. And even if they don't know exactly what the answer is of what that job title is, they know that there will be something that they're interested in and that they, that they feel confident applying for.

So, um, I guess doing a bit more of that work, that sort of researcher identity piece, I think, which I think- Yeah ... as you were saying, Ruth, is really key to feeling confident, isn't it, about whatever you go on to do next.

Yeah. Mm. Sounds like we'll all be as busy as ever- ... over the next year, but that's how we like it, obviously.

That is how we like it.

So that is all we've got time for today. Thank you so much to all of you, to Ruth, Laura, and Anna, for all of your expertise and wisdom. It has been an absolute pleasure. If you've listened to this today and you haven't listened to the Careers in Your Ears podcast yet, what are you doing?

You'll find a link in the show notes, and I highly, highly recommend you give them a listen. There's a really lovely mixture of listening to the experiences of former researchers and also as, as Anna and Laura mentioned, those Q&A episodes which allow them to tackle some of the issues we've discussed today.

So thank you so much again for listening, and we will see you again soon for another episode of Research Culture Uncovered.

Thank you ... and Anna and Laura. It's been a pleasure. Thank you.

Bye-bye. Bye.

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