Not everyone loves wine. I know this. And while it’s hard for me to relate, I can respect it. 

My very good friend Heather, who lives in Austin Texas, has never liked wine. In fact, she has even referred to it as “rotten juice” during our decades long friendship. She suggested we do an episode where she shares her past experiences and biases with wine, so that other non-wine drinkers out there felt seen. 

I see you. 

Heather was open to tasting a little bit of wine, because she is curious about why people like me find so much joy in it and she wanted to have some baseline knowledge so she could carry on a conversation with the wine drinkers in her life. 

Listen as we open 5 different bottles of wine and discuss:

• What’s that smell?
• The one that was “stanky”
• If cheddar popcorn and chili pistachios hold up as wine pairings 
• The definition of cougar juice 
• Drinking for taste, not to get drunk
• Is non alcoholic wine a thing?

Get my favorite wine preservation system, the Coravin Pivot, here- so you can take your time with your open bottles. 

You can purchase my small-lot 2021 Sollevato Sangiovese that is “Not Bad” Here- Use discount code PODLISTNER for 10% off. 

Information about the lovely and light Croix Chardonnay we tasted here: 

Curious about the Pride Mountain Vineyards Viognier? Email me at nikki@sipwithnikki.com

Find Pride Mountain Vineyards Merlot here 

If you'd like to Support the Podcast, you can buy me a glass of wine here-and I’ll give you a shoutout on a future episode!

Please consider Rating, Reviewing and Following Us on Apple Podcasts!

“Every episode is such a great blend of fun, education and personal experience! By the end of each listen I know more about the food and wine world than when I hit play (and am also usually hungry and thirsty for a lovely food & wine pairing)."

(Shout out to Elizloop for this great review.)

Want to leave your own review (and get a show note shout out?) 

Click Here, scroll to the bottom, tap to rate with Stars and select "write a review" and let us know what you loved most about this episode!

Want more tips to get the most out of your wine? Get my Wine Tips Cheat Sheet here.

Questions, suggestions and guest requests? nikki@sipwithnikki.com

Nikki: Because nikki, you know, like I do not like red wine I was waiting for you to make the rotten juice face that you make with all it's not

Heather: there.

Heather: There's it doesn't taste rotten I mean tastes like wine She's taking another sip, you guys. Oh my god, it's pretty good for you. Good job! I'm serious, I'm not disgusted by this. And when I taste red wine, it's like,

Nikki: red wine. She's scrunching her face in many different ways right now.

Nikki: So one of my most long time girlfriends, Heather from Austin, Texas, has, since as long as I've known her, proclaimed that she does not like wine. She has even gone so far in certain settings. When I encouraged her over the years, just smell it, just taste it, to make a very horrible scrunched up face and say, ugh, it smells like rotten juice.

Nikki: So when I started the podcast a couple months ago, I Heather had a great idea and she said, what if you did an episode with your friend who doesn't like wine and I could talk about why I don't like it and maybe it might be interesting to some other people out there who are not obsessed with wine like Nikki Lamberti.

Nikki: But she was curious because I think she has always been surrounded in her life by people that do like wine, whether it's her parents, or me, or other friends. And so she's always liked wine. been intrigued by the idea of it, the social nature of it, um, just really had zero appreciation for what she was smelling and tasting in the glass.

Nikki: And, um, I think you will be, uh, interested to hear her review as someone who does not like wine. So. Before we jump in, if you haven't already, please leave a rating for the podcast, take a moment and leave us a review in Apple or Spotify, and send me a note. Email's been kind of quiet lately, Nikki, N I K K I at sipwithnikki.

Nikki: com. Let me know what you think. Let me know who'd you like to hear, topics you'd like to cover. Send in a listener question and we'll give you a shout out on a future episode. Here we go with Heather, who does not like wine.

Heather: And actually the smell of the pine trees is something that I really enjoyed.

Heather: So it's funny that we're going to be using our sense of smell.

Nikki: Well, and you kept saying when we were walking over the pines, that it reminded you of a certain smell from growing up in Louisiana. Yeah. And that is part of the reason that Wine can be so special and emotion evoking because our sense of smell is linked to memory.

Nikki: Yeah. And that's one of the things that I love about wine and why I've chosen to dedicate my life to this beverage that you don't like. Yeah. And you've never

Heather: liked. Not fond of wine. You've heard me refer to it as rotten juice. which I know is offensive to all the wine drinkers out there. That's okay.

Heather: That's why we're doing this.

Heather: Yeah. I think I had mentioned to you when you started doing your podcast that I was like, Wouldn't it be funny you could reach a wider audience of those that don't drink wine and why drinking wine is cool or why people who you love drink wine?

Heather: Try to understand that. And I think that's where that stemmed from as I was like, you're obsessed with wine. I am not fond of wine. I don't drink wine. So yeah, I'm excited to learn why this is so cool to some people.

Nikki: Well, thank you for suggesting it and thank you for being open to trying. If nothing else, hopefully there's just some little light bulbs that come away from it.

Heather: Yes.

Nikki: So those are the types of things that I think people that are not crazy wine nerds might be curious about. Yeah. Whether they want to taste and learn or whether they just kind of want to not feel lost in a conversation around people in their lives who are passionate about it. Otherwise, it all just sounds like what, what, what, what, what wine, what, what, what, what Tannins.

Nikki: And you're right. The

Heather: conversations we've had this weekend about why you like it and like what you're actually experiencing when you drink wine is different from just like, let's drink wine until we're wasted or until we're drunk. You have taught me that you enjoy it for the taste and the flavors that you experience.

Heather: So. Um, yeah, that's what I would like to experience. And so I really think too, like for people in your life that don't drink wine or alcohol, I don't drink alcohol really now anymore. For those of you listening, who may know me,

Nikki: cause we're old, cause we're old. And you drank it all in your twenties and thirties.

Nikki: It's all gone.

Heather: Um, I don't have any, a tolerance for it anymore. I feel like. I get kind of sick when I drink alcohol of any kind. So I don't, I haven't drank for years now. But I think, but I'm not like pulling you off

Nikki: No,

Heather: no. We're here to learn about why wine is cool and why the taste I should like learn about like what we're actually tasting. And that's the point of wine. Um, Especially now that I'm not drinking it to get drunk or drinking it because it has alcohol in it. Yeah, there's a different part of it that because my bestie is passionate about it.

Heather: I want to learn more. I want to be her bestie involved and I think if you like I was saying earlier if you don't drink wine And you have a friend that's a wine drinker You can have an appreciation but also like

Nikki: appreciate don't convert you can just have appreciation and awareness Just like I can have appreciation for Things that I'm not a diehard in my life, like, I don't know, football, and things that my partner is really into that make his world go round.

Nikki: Um, it's just nice to have that appreciation and not feel lost when I dip my toe in that world. So I think that's what you're doing here. So thank you. You're welcome. I'm excited. So let me set the scene for our listeners. First of all, we're in this fabulous Airbnb in the north of Lake Tahoe. And it's kind of like log comedy feeling.

Nikki: And as I'm sitting here, it's kind of going into the sunset hour. And we have this beautiful deck. Um, and we're looking at Lake Tahoe literally as we sit here.

Heather: It's gorgeous.

Nikki: Um, we're at the coffee table in the living room in front of this cute little wood stove. And I've opened five, we're not drinking to get drunk, but I did open five different bottles of wine.

Nikki: And then we've got two sort of wild cards, which are lesser known grapes that you may or may not know much about at all. And then I made us a little cheese plate because we're going to talk about what happens when you introduce salt and cheese and nuts and protein. And do that, does it change the wine?

Nikki: And so we have a couple of different mixed cheeses on the plates. We've got some cheddar popcorn on there. We've got some nice little flatbread and some Marcona almonds. So let's just go for it. Let's just start with the first one and just like ask away. So the first one on your left, it's a white wine.

Heather: I don't know. This is why it's hard. I don't. It smells like wine to me. Ding, ding, ding, ding.

Nikki: You are correct. Ladies and gentlemen, she wins.

Nikki: The end. We're done. Okay. So let's break it down. And in an earlier episode, I used the acronym FEW, F E W, Fruit Earth Wood. Did you listen to that one? I did. Yeah. She's, she's a long time listener. First time caller. Yeah. So funny. Okay. So do you remember learning about that? Yes. Okay. So let's start with F, fruit.

Nikki: Okay. Is this wine, does it smell fruity? Yes or no?

Nikki: This wine is not like berries, right? You're not getting like tutti frutti, cherries, strawberries, no. Generally white wines. And this wine is Chardonnay, are gonna have notes of citrus, maybe some apple, I'm getting a little more green, like tart apple, ooh, ooh, okay, talk to me. I eat a lot of apples, and now that you're saying that.

Nikki: Okay, think of what a green, like a honeycrisp, are they green? Uh, Granny Smith. Granny Smith. Yeah. Do you smell it? Yep. Yeah. When you said apple, that's exactly what I thought. The green one. Uh huh. The tart one. Uh huh. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Um, so. Shout out to Carol. My mother, her favorite wine is Chardonnay. Yeah.

Heather: is Carol's What is it bouquet of choice?

Heather: She is a box queen box wine girl But I don't think there's any shame in that game because you have said wine

Nikki: is subjective, right? Mm hmm. It's whatever you like The nice thing about the box too is that, and especially of late, packaging is getting even better and better because what's in the box is usually a bag of some type, a bag in a box, which is helping with Protecting against oxidation.

Nikki: Whereas when you open a bottle of wine, the clock is ticking unless you have a Coravin on it. Where you can like take your time with that box and um, No, I always say like what you drink, drink what you like. But know why you like it. Yes. Okay, that's what I'm learning today is why this might be. So we identified some fruity in some apple.

Nikki: I smell leaves now. There's like a freshness, like a, like a botanical freshness. Yep. Yep. Okay. So we kind of have maybe a guess of what we think it's going to taste like based on the nose and our fruit, earthwood. Now taste it. Okay. Mm hmm.

Nikki: It's not, it's not

Heather: bad.

Nikki: Yeah, you guys, we got a not bad. I, in my world, when people say not bad, especially when they're from the northeast, hey, it's not bad. I mean, I take it as a compliment.

Nikki: Yeah. Well, you're giving it its full attention, right?

Nikki: And you're looking for things to notice. You're paying attention. And you said not bad and that makes my heart happy. Yeah. It wasn't like a rotten juice. No, which I've seen you do that many times over our 25 year friendship. You even did it with something of a few nights ago. Yeah. Maybe it was red. We were, we were.

Nikki: Yeah. Red. Okay. But this is not bad. You know I'm really hard to read. Like my emotions don't. Yeah. There is no. And listen to me. So I've been with her for like three days now and the y'all has rubbed off and now I'm y'all ing. And I'm like. Um, there's no guessing with Heather. It's one of the things I love about her.

Nikki: First of many, I'm sure. It's been probably at least a minute. Since we've swallowed that wine. For me, it's lingering. Yeah. And I almost got like a little butterscotch butter.

Heather: Oh my God. Do I have a sophisticated palate? I think you do. When you say it, I can identify it. I don't know if you're

Nikki: putting it in my head.

Nikki: But I do Stinky Jim socks. Stinky. Jim Socks. Nope. Don't taste stinky. Jim socks. No, you're not getting that. Don't taste it. Okay. Good. Good. But butterscotch. Yeah. Oh my god. That's crazy. Little butterscotchy finish. Mm-Hmm. . Um, try a bite of the white cheddar popcorn. Okay. This might be a fun test. Uhhuh . Let's chomp it on the microphone.

Nikki: I'm gonna have a couple more. I know I'm gonna have another one. Okay. Okay. So we got some salt and some cheddar. Yep. Going on in the palette. Mm-Hmm. . Let's try this one again.

Nikki: Um, and salt, right? Okay. And it changed the wine with this wine. Did you like it better with or without the popcorn? Without. Okay. So just something to notice, right? Um, by the way, this wine is from very close to my house in Sonoma County. I'm going to put the link in the show notes for all the wines today.

Nikki: Do you know what that means? No. They're old barrels. They're used. They weren't holding wine for the first time when they had this wine in it. They had held other wines before. Same kind of wine, or any kind? Yeah, probably white wine. Okay. Probably other Chardonnay. But it means that it's not oaky, because all the oakiness was sucked out of the barrels.

Nikki: The first wine, and the second wine, and the third wine. How many times can you use a barrel? As long as you want. Like a hundred years? Hundred years. Maybe. Okay. Most people don't use them that long. But like a decade. Well, I don't know if it's like, oh, it makes it even more better if it's old. It's just neutral and it's not imparting, quote, oakiness.

Nikki: Thank goodness. I know I'm not a fan of the Butterbomb, but do you know what wines that, that have a high butteriness and high oakiness, that's what we mean by Butterbomb, do you know in the industry, and I hope people don't cancel me when I say this, what those wines are sometimes called? The ones that are butter bombs.

Nikki: Especially chardonnay, like big buttery oaky chardonnays that our moms and our aunts and our grandmas have drank for decades. Um, I don't know if you know this. No, but you got the second part right? Juice? Cougar juice! Have you ever heard that? You're cancelled. I'm cancelled?

Heather: No,

Nikki: I haven't.

Heather: Why is it called that?

Heather: Are you cancelling me? No, but based on like cougar, like

Heather: Okay.

Nikki: Who tends to gravitate towards that wine. It's a huge stereotype, but there is some truth to it. Okay. This is not that style of Chardonnay. No, because it's not buttery. Yeah. It's not a butter

Heather: bomb cougar juice.

Nikki: All right. So as we move on from wine, number one, tell me like one or two things that you learned or. Okay. I learned

Heather: that you have to keep those, that acronym in mind, the. When you're smelling and that the smell is important and then that anything you eat with a wine will change the taste of the wine.

Nikki: Swirling gets oxygen in the glass, which just means that you smell and taste more. Okay. Because wine is chemistry in the glass and the chemistry in the glass is volatile. And when it comes in contact with oxygen, things release. And it simply lets you smell and taste more. Why do people pour it

Heather: in that other glass container before pouring it in the wine?

Heather: The decanter, I think it's called. No. Yeah.

Nikki: Same thing. What swirling does decanting does exponentially because a decanter puts a lot of surface area of oxygen on a wine and it helps the wine to open up. What are you getting on this? I know that it. It still smells just like wine to me, but it does smell different than the other wine.

Heather: I smell the wood, not the wood, the leaves in this one. The old one. The earthiness of the Chardonnay.

Nikki: The earth.

Nikki: Yeah. I'm also getting a little. Butteryness and that that butterscotchy finish that we noticed. I didn't smell it before. Is this one

Heather: flowery? Is it smell, smell like flower? The new white wine is

Nikki: flowery. It's very floral. Mm hmm. Yeah, okay, and I would put flowers in the, in the e, fruit earth wood. Flowers I'm gonna put in the, the, in the under earth.

Nikki: They grow out of the earth. Okay? Okay. What about fruitiness? Just tell me what's in earth. Flowers. Anything but fruit. Sticks. And anything but wood. Could be spices. Could be flowers. Could be, like you were saying, leaves or minerals or dirt. Like grass. Forest. Grass. Okay. Mushrooms. Basically anything natural that's not Fruit.

Nikki: Do you get your green apple in here? Yeah. Okay. What about a pear? Pear. Pear. Yes,

Heather: that's what I smell. What about

Nikki: a peach? Maybe. Early season peach, not ripe, like dripping down your chin, but like. That's the only ones I eat.

Heather: No,

Nikki: it's not as strong Dang, when you go back and forth, that's why we do it. You can really tell yeah and now Butterscotch baby back on the first one like big time. Totally. Yep Okay. All right. So you kind of have an idea based on the second white wine, which I haven't told you what it is yet What you have identified you kind of think you know what it may or may not taste like okay taste it You

Nikki: Sour.

Nikki: And scene. And there we have it. Let's write it up in Wine Spectator. I just, I still, you can taste

Heather: there's a difference. I just don't know what it is. I, I like it better than the first one. Nice. What do you like

Nikki: about it? It's just so good. It's lighter. It feels like it's not as a heavy, that's how I'd describe it.

Heather: called VMA? VMA is her awards,

Nikki: I think. Open the bottle of that MTV Music Awards. V O N G A Y. V O N G A Y. It looks like V O G N E R.

Nikki: On the label, because it's French, and we say Viognier. Viognier. Oh! You said it better than me. Because I'm French. What do you want? Viognier is known for being very floral and aromatic. This grape is in the same family of grapes as Riesling and Gewürztraminer. When I say that, what do you think, Riesling?

Heather: I think of sweet, because I know Riesling's sweet.

Nikki: things in general. But you're friends with me. I know. So, in another previous episode called Hey Sugar, Understanding Sweetness in Wine, about three episodes back, I talk about exactly what you said is a very important common perception that when people hear Riesling, even if they don't know anything about wine, they go, Oh, I know that sweet.

Nikki: Yeah. Not all Riesling is sweet. It can be made in a sweet style, but it could also be made in a dry style. Dry is the opposite of sweet. Dry means all the sugar became alcohol. Okay. Oh, dry is the opposite of sweet in wine. Yes. Okay. That's good to know. The word dry is tricky because it kind of has two meanings in wine.

Heather: Okay.

Nikki: This wine does not feel like that.

Nikki: No. Chalky, bitter, astringent. We're going to save that for the reds. Oh, God. I don't know if I'm going to make it. I don't know if I'm going to. That's like the real rotten juice.

Heather: But you, do you like this one? Yes. When I say like, I don't want to like drink it,

Nikki: but I don't mind eating it. Does this one offend you less than most? Yes. I thought you were going to say, when I say like, I don't mean like I want to drink a whole bottle. I don't want to drink it.

Heather: I don't want to drink it again. No. Um, I can tell that I prefer this taste over

Nikki: the first wine taste. There we go.

Nikki: Like, you know me, I love jalapeno and serrano and all things. And A lot of times when you're trying to pair wine with something spicy, after you have the spice in your mouth, the wine tastes like shit. Yeah. This wine is like a little fire extinguisher in the mouth. In fact, hold on. I'm gonna get you one of your, um, chili Oh, chili pistachios.

Nikki: Pistachios. Okay. Which normally, I would not recommend. with wine tasting because the chili would just overpower. Okay. But I want you to try that. So I'm going to eat the pistachio. We've been housing this bag of chili pistachios during our girls weekend. Oh, you want me to have another one? Okay. Yeah. Okay.

Nikki: For me, it made it

Heather: softer. It's so weird to pay attention to this, you know?

Nikki: Like, like that statement right there. Yeah. Like we're done. Like my work is done. It's just, if you pay attention, there's so much to it, right? Yeah.

Heather: Okay. I'm beginning to understand why this is. appealing to some folks because it is more than just, you know,

Nikki: drinking an alcoholic drink to.

Heather: What about, well can you make non alcoholic wine that tastes just as good or is that not a thing? Oh, hot

Nikki: topic, hot topic. We are children of the 80s. Yes, there is non alcoholic wine, just like there's non alcoholic beer, right? Yes, it's a purist thing. Like this is what wine is. For me, and I'm not going to speak for everyone, I'm just not there yet, but I know that's important and I know of late people are drinking less or choosing not to drink at all for health reasons.

Nikki: Puts the wine through a centrifuge, essentially, and removes the alcohol, so. Wow. And then it's supposed to taste the exact same.

Heather: Yeah. Do you think it does? Have you done, have you done this? I don't. You don't think it tastes the

Nikki: same? I don't. But, to be fair, I have not tasted a lot of them, and there's more on the market now than ever, so I probably need to dig into that and just be aware, so I can speak about it more intelligently than I am right now, but.

Nikki: But if you are

Heather: in it for the taste, maybe you'll find one that you do like the taste of. Yeah. But you don't have to. Just drink that one. Yeah, it's another thing to taste and experience. Yeah. No, it's

Nikki: I was gonna not a lot. I was good. You guys hear her not a lot I don't want you to waste it Okay, so this is our first of three reds I think you saw what it was, so I'm not going to try that. I didn't, I didn't see. Really? I didn't look. I can't see the label. You have the labels turned away from me. Alright, let's give it a smell.

Nikki: F E W. Let me swirl it around. Y'all, watch. Look at me. Y'all, she's got a nice swirl. Hey, do not spill that wine in your swirl on our Airbnb white carpet or I'll lose my security deposit.

Heather: It smells like cherries.

Nikki: Is that right? Is it? It's very fruit forward. And typically this wine is known for having a cherry note.

Heather: Yeah. There's something in here that's not. Cherry or fruity. I don't, uh,

Nikki: she's concentrating really hard. I can't identify what it is. Do you want me to give you suggestions or give you a moment? Tell

Heather: me some suggestions, but like make some of them wrong.

Nikki: Stinky gym socks. Nope. Don't smell that. Rotten fish. Nope. Licorice. I don't like licorice, so. Anise. What's anise? A spice. Like star anise?

Nikki: I don't know that. Okay. Tobacco?

Heather: Yes. Oooh. There's tobacco in this. It smells like some kind of tobacco, a

Nikki: sweeter tobacco. Cherry tobacco.

Heather: Oh my gosh. Alright,

Nikki: I don't know, um. I don't know what it is, but I know there's a wood smell. Okay. So there's some, there's some. This wine was probably aged in oak barrels. Okay. If it's not jumping out at you like, Oh, oaky. They're probably not new. They're probably used. So we're going to put a small w on here. And am I right?

Nikki: Is it right? Am

Heather: I

Nikki: right? Sure.

Heather: What about, Um. The cherry part. That's the, that's what I smell. Yeah.

Nikki: Now when I say yes, and for sure the tobacco, now that you've said that, it's definitely both. So did the person that make this wine put cherries and or tobacco in the wine at any point?

Heather: No, it was in the earth.

Heather: In the air and in the sun, uh, spring water.

Nikki: Rain.

Heather: In the earth.

Nikki: It's chemistry.

Heather: In the ground.

Nikki: Big black horse in a cherry tree. Remember that was one of my, um, karaoke songs that I would sing. Which song is that? Black Horse and a Cherry Tree by KT Tunstall. And I say no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You're not the one for me. I don't know the words. No, but when you were saying like did it come from the air and come from the water?

Nikki: Yeah. Right. Right. Okay. So. Science. Science. Okay. So give it one more smell and then give it a taste.

Heather: Do you always swivel your wine every time? Every

Nikki: single time.

Heather: Because it does something every time. Yes. It's letting more and more oxygen in. You got it. So is it changing the smell or is it just making it stronger?

Heather: Mmm. That's a good question.

Nikki: Both. Uh, the cherries, I, I mean. Do you like cherries? Yes. So are you excited to taste this? Well, yeah, and

Heather: it's red and I normally had a bad experience with a red wine when I was like 20. But anyway, let's try

Nikki: it. Well,

Heather: we're not 20 anymore.

Nikki: No kidding. Or 30. Or 40. Anywhere. Wait, we're 40s.

Nikki: Forty zuh.

Nikki: you know what I mean? I will take hashtag not disgusting. I'm sorry, but

Heather: congratulations.

Nikki: Because Nikki, you know, like, I do not like red wine.

Nikki: I was waiting for you to make the rotten juice face that you make with all red wine. It's

Heather: not there. There's, it doesn't taste rotten. I mean, it tastes like wine. But not.

Nikki: She's taking her sip.

Heather: Oh my god. It's pretty good for you. Good job. I'm serious I'm not disgusted by this and when I

Nikki: taste red wine, it's like red wine She's scrunching her face in many different ways right now.

Heather: I'm so proud of you I'm serious Not gross, you know, I would tell you if I thought it if I girl I know I've been with you for the last three days. I I love that you didn't tell me this was yours because I'm not Maybe I would have had some bias in like trying to support you. Sure. Thank you.

Nikki: Thank you for that.

Heather: pretty good.

Nikki: Yeah. I'm so proud of you. The cherry situation. The cherry situation is high. So let's see if you remember the type of grape, the type of wine that I make. It's the Italian grape. Starts with an S. Uh huh. Slur. It rhymes with schmandravacy. Sangivese.

Heather: I know, I have a hard enough time pronouncing your wine's name because I'm slow, but anyway. That's like legit. I haven't

Nikki: tasted your wine. I know.

Heather: Did I taste

Nikki: it last night? No. It was the pride. I was saving this. I was saving this for our podcast because I really wanted to truly capture your first unfiltered impression that you've ever had this wine.

Nikki: I can't believe

Heather: that I can, the smell of the tobacco and the cherry. Are those the two strongest things in here?

Nikki: Yeah, I would say.

Nikki: little pepper spice,

Heather: pepper, I can, I can, it's very cherry forward. Very cherry.

Nikki: Thank God I like cherries. What if I didn't?

Nikki: Right? Well, and it's funny too, and this is, So, this is the tricky, slippery slope with wine when we try to pull out notes of fruit and flowers and things that we can all relate to. When I say licorice, and you're like, I don't like licorice, like right away, I'm like, well shit, why did I say that? Because now you have like a negative connotation, but it's not strong, I don't taste licorice.

Nikki: We did this, like, with cheese last night.

Heather: It was so good. It's so good. Now try

Nikki: the wine again. Okay.

Heather: It made it less spicy. It's, like, lighter. Is that

Nikki: right? Yes! Wow. She's taking another sip, you guys. I should be videoing this. Cheese makes me want to like gulp it because I'm thirsty. Mmm. Well, and that's my problem is like, a bite and a sip and a bite and a sip and a bite and a sip and then I ate all the cheese and drank all the wine.

Nikki: It did make it better. It didn't make it like grosser. I mean, it's good by itself actually. Didn't make it grosser. Typically, Sangiovese, the name of this red grape, is kind of in the middle of the spectrum of red grapes when we talk about boldness, concentration, and then specifically tannin, right? Tannin, as I mentioned, is what can feel chalky, astringent, sometimes bitter.

Heather: Ew, I'm not sure I want to feel that ever. Is this, but this is like There's a strong aftertaste that's in my mouth that is not bad. Again, a red wine thing that I have experienced afterwards. So you

Nikki: like what's lingering?

Heather: Yeah, it's not bad. It's not bitter.

Nikki: It's pleasant, and it almost makes you want to take another sip. So we're going to replace the word aftertaste, which has a negative connotation, with the word finish. This wine has a pleasant finish or a long finish. That's the word in wine that you use to say you like how it's still hanging out in your cheeks and your tongue.

Heather: of fur.

Nikki: I just got that in my head.

Heather: Big bang. I'm so proud that that's your wine and that

Nikki: I like it.

Nikki: I'm so relieved. Cause I was like, this is going to be interesting. And I had already decided that if you tasted my wine and said rotten juice, like I wasn't going to edit it out, right? This is not a commercial for my wine. This is really capturing. Unfiltered thoughts of someone who says they don't like wine.

Nikki: So Sangiovese is in the middle of the spectrum, like I said. So it's not as bold and rich and heavy and tannic as Cabernet Sauvignon, Petite Syrah, some of those, but it's not as light and see through in the glass like Pinot Noir would be, which is one of the lightest reds. Sangiovese, especially the way that we make it is very much in the middle of the spectrum.

Heather: Water in your mouth, not in the glass.

Nikki: Oh, who taught you that?

Heather: This chick I know. Why is that important? She has a podcast.

Nikki: Why is that important?

Heather: Because you're diluting the flavors in the wine by adding the tiny bit of water. It's better to have whatever residuals were left from the first wine. Do you guys hear me

Nikki: crying? Now I'm

Heather: the proud teacher. There's a whole art to this. I'm learning. I am, I

Nikki: am, my appreciation is growing. I'm proud of you just for being open and for trying.

Heather: I just have a revisit?

Nikki: Revisit. I'd

Heather: like to revisit.

Heather: So wait, remind me what the aftertaste one is? Finish. Finish and revisit. If it's positive,

Nikki: it's a finish. Sometimes it's an aftertaste and it's horrible and it's offensive and you can call it an aftertaste, but if you like it and it's positive, finish. Take both of these glasses. Both. These two. So we're going to finish with two more reds.

Nikki: Just remember which is which. What's on your left, what's on your right. Okay? Okay. Just smell back and forth between these two wines. Take a minute with them. Think about your fruit, earth, and wood. Eww, that one stinks. Eww, okay. Maybe it's because I smelled this one first. What, what stinks about it? I don't know.

Nikki: It was like a, um, it's not as bad as like when I stopped and gave it a second

Heather: and smelled it again.

Nikki: And I smelled it. There's not a flaw. This wine is I'm flawed. Is that what you're saying? This wine is clean. That was just your answer? Personal reaction, which is fine. I think now that I'm

Heather: not smelling this one and that one, it's not, it's not as bad. Okay. It's changing

Nikki: clearly. Okay. Let's do some swirling.

Nikki: Okay. So just based on smell, the first one that you were smelling was more appealing to you? Yeah. Well, yeah, like if I said you can only have a sip of one of these, I would choose this one, not

Heather: the one

Nikki: I didn't like, which in this scenario, we're just gonna call wine one. Okay. For this scenario, we have one and two.

Nikki: Okay. Let's go through fruit Earth Wood on wine one. This is the hardest part. Roll it around in your glass, like, not only swirling, but see how I'm tilting the glass and then rotating it, it's coating the inside. Oh, yeah.

Heather: So pretty. Try

Nikki: Yeah. Swirl it like you're covering like a lid. Oh, I'm trapping it. Trap it, and then release it into your nose. Stronger? Yeah, super stronger. But I,

Nikki: flour? Mm hmm. So it's, is it earthy, or is it fruity? To me, this wine is both. No, fruity. Yeah.

Heather: Yeah, there's fruit in here, too.

Nikki: Cherries jumping out at you, or Granny Smith apples? Or maybe darker color red fruits, like a. Dark color. Dark

Heather: color.

Nikki: Blueberry or a blackberry. Blackberry. Okay. Woody? Spicy? Spice. Pepper spice?

Nikki: Pepper. Or baking spice, like clove, vanilla, cinnamon, nutmeg? Yes,

Heather: clove, it's the

Nikki: baking. I can't remember, you loved pumpkin spice or you hated pumpkin spice? I do like pumpkin, I

Heather: do like pumpkin. You

Nikki: Is there nutmeg? Sure, yeah. So, of all the wines that you've had today, the two whites and the San Gervasi, this wine, these two, Yeah. Have the most new oak on them. Some of the barrels that held Both of these red wines in front of you were new, which is going to amp up a little bit of the oakiness, the woodiness, and the baking spices.

Nikki: Can

Heather: I smell your wine, and then that one, and see? God dang the cherries in there. So when you change,

Nikki: it's

Heather: kind of fun. It's like science. It is science.

Heather: that has been the, like, I can't identify when have you ever had three different types of wines in front of you?

Heather: That's been the biggest thing that I'm noticing is I can't identify, but I know they're different. And

Nikki: that's cool. And, and it takes a while to identify and be able to pull out these things. It's just like anything. It's like learning, being a musician or a sport. You were a gymnast, right? All of those things take training to hone in, but just the fact that you can say they're different.

Nikki: Okay. This one's dry. Good observation. What causes that dry feeling in your mouth, T Word? The tannins. Mm hmm. This wine definitely has the most tannins. It tastes

Heather: the most like red wine. Like, this is what red wine tastes like to me. So, you know, I don't enjoy it. It's just, I think it's the bitter, the, maybe it's the tannins.

Nikki: Yeah. I don't. If this wine has a good amount of tannin, have another bite of any of the cheeses on your plate, or even the popcorn. Mmm. Ha ha ha! Are we the same person? Are we the same person? I grabbed a bite of Mimolette, which is this really orange French I brought, I got this stuff. I'm not sure what it is.

Nikki: Because it's so strong. But you smell before and then drink? Before, during, after.

Heather: I

Nikki: think it mellowed it out. Yay!

Heather: It's definitely not

Nikki: as strong. Yay! Weird! Yes, because I think Confirm this for me, but I think what was off putting about this one on its own to you that you didn't love was the tannin. Yes.

Nikki: Which it tastes like bitter, feels like dry, chalky. Yes. So here's what's happening with tannin. This is the science. Tannin comes from the skin of the grape. If we had table grapes, red grapes from the grocery store sitting here right now, I would tell you to peel the skin off the grape and just put the skin alone in your mouth.

Nikki: That's crazy. Normally,

Heather: I know from my past, Merlot has been my least favorite red wine. I know I don't like Merlot. Yeah, this is like different when you add a little bit of mindfulness to what you're doing and the cheese and it's fun I'm like smiling from ear to ear. You are smiling! Because you've had four sips of wine which is the

Nikki: most you've had in a year.

Nikki: I've had any few years. No, I don't think it's

Heather: that but that's enjoyable.

Heather: glass.

Heather: Ooh, what's that smell? Okay, it doesn't smell bad anymore. Okay. It's not as tanniny as that one. Okay. Tannic. Still tastes like red wine, though. Um, it doesn't have as much flavor in it. Okay. That's the Merlot. Yeah.

Nikki: Okay,

Heather: like I guess strong. It's not a strong by itself. Okay, so maybe if we eat food with it

Nikki: Let's try it.

Nikki: I would do a bite of popcorn with this That's what I mean, you could do whatever or try an almond. I was about to say, can I try an almond? Yeah, we'll get some macon almond. Get her with her swirl now you guys. She's like, it's a tornado up in there That made it different. Okay, different. How? Better. Okay So this is a very classic red grape that you probably know, that you hear people drink all the time.

Nikki: You weren't like loving it, but you hadn't made a scrunchie face until I said

Heather: the name. The Cabernet is the one that I had the bad experience with.

Nikki: You said that with Merlot. How many bad experiences did you have? Merlot and Cabernet. Red wine has not been kind to me. Okay. In the past. Maybe you weren't kind to that red wine.

Heather: Merlot and Cab together.

Nikki: Correct. And then is that called something? If it's 75 percent or more of one of them, it's called that. It's just called that. Okay. So it'll say Merlot blend. It just says Merlot. How will you know if it's blended then? You don't. Okay. Okay. These wines, the Merlot is about 90 percent Merlot with a little bit of Cabernet.

Nikki: And the cabernet is like 90 percent cabernet with a little bit of Merlot. I call them sister wines with the cheese and

Heather: drinking the Merlot after is better than. this.

Nikki: So for most people, and just look at how much progress you've made in our time here tonight, Cabernet is an acquired taste because it tends to be less fruity than the Merlot and have more earthy and the tobacco and herbal notes. Yeah, definitely. And takes some getting used to if you're not. into these wines, but it's like more power.

Nikki: Okay. Well, you did great. Thank you. What other wine questions

Heather: do you have? I think I had asked you earlier. When you go to a wine tasting, is it usually paired with food? Is that a normal thing or

Nikki: some? Yes. Some now just depends on the winery and some wineries offer different experiences. So there may be a baseline experience.

Nikki: We're just tasting the wine, but then they may offer an elevated experience where now they're going to bring you a cheese board.

Heather: Okay.

Nikki: For you to pair it with this wine, and you have like a little, almost like a bento box right in front of you with all these bites. So it can be, it can be done in any of those formats.

Heather: I will tell you that what I, um, enjoying the most about this is eating the food and then tasting it afterward and seeing the difference in the taste.

Heather: Yeah. And there is a big difference. Mm hmm. The food with it is a game changer for me in terms of like enjoying or appreciating it more. Just drinking it, you know. I don't want to drink it, but having a purpose behind why you drink it, I think for me has been the most eye opening. My work is done.

Nikki: It is definitely an experience.

Heather: Well, it's really cool to have a peek into your world Um, where you've spent so much time and energy and sweat and tears and money and Oh my god, tears.

Heather: A lot of tears. Um, it's a, a world of its own and I do feel like I understand it better now. But I'm so proud of you. This really is legit. And even tasting these now, like, no thank you to the Merlot and the Cab. Yours

Nikki: is good to taste. It's a softer, um Red, so I'm not surprised that of the reds, this is kind of where you landed.

Nikki: Awesome. Not being a big red drinker. So, that's part of the reason we also make Sangiovese, because not everybody loves Cabernet. Well, my advice is, if

Heather: you're not a wine drinker, or you don't understand it, go to a tasting, somebody who's educated, like my friend Nikki. Nikki. And Nikki.

Nikki: have an experience.

Nikki: So there's our new mantra, appreciate, don't hate. I really had no idea how that was going to go. And of course, I was pleasantly surprised, not only that she was just so open. And I think definitely after less than an hour, I walked away with a new appreciation. I don't know if that she's going to be a wine connoisseur and that's totally fine.

Nikki: It's not for everyone, but I feel as a wine educator, satisfied. By the outcome from our time together. If you have someone in your life that doesn't like wine and you do, this might be a fun episode to share with them from any place. platform where you're listening, there should be a little square with an arrow in the top right, and that makes it super easy to text it and share it with someone that you know.

Nikki: This is all free content that I am putting out there into the world, but every once in a while somebody asks how they can show their appreciation. So there is a link in the show notes to this episode you're listening to. Click on support the podcast and you can buy me a lovely glass of wine to say thank you.