Artwork for podcast BLUE MUMDAYS
My Kids' Birth Unlocked My Childhood Trauma: NICK RAEBURN
Episode 339th April 2023 • BLUE MUMDAYS • Vikki Stephenson
00:00:00 00:53:41

Share Episode

Shownotes

I chat to Nick Raeburn, aka 'That Social Nerd'. Nick came to my attention in a very brave and raw LinkedIn post, where he talked about the huge flood of emotion he experienced in becoming a dad. Prior to having children, Nick had never cried - a result of the awful abuse he suffered as a child. This is a very emotional and deeply profound conversation; I don't think I've cried as much - or laughed as much - during an interview!

*TRIGGER WARNING: *Brief (but not graphic) early mention of Child Abuse, discussion of Trauma*

IN THIS EPISODE WE DISCUSS:

[00:00] Teaser quote.

[02:46] Introduction to Nick.

[03:42] How the birth of his daughter was the catalyst to unlocking his emotions.

[04:41] How Nick was helped through therapy and E.M.D.R. (Eye Movement Desensitisation Reprocessing).

[05:28] Lack of support during his childhood. Catharsis from expressing how he feels on social media.

[07:02] How the pandemic has affected attitudes to life and mental health.

[08:12] How Nick had buried the painful experiences of his childhood.

[09:28] Approaching fatherhood. The differences in the birth of his first and second child.

[12:46] Meeting his daughter for the first time. The importance of emotional intelligence.

[16:06] The unrelenting horror of sleep deprivation!

[21:54] The early days of having his newborn daughter at home.

[23:29] Feelings of anger, resulting from Nick's adverse childhood experiences.

[27:50] Owning his story and reclaiming his power.

[29:20] Fatherhood and masculinity. Discovering 'A Band of Brothers'. Mentorship.

[35:27] Recovery, including the E.M.D.R. therapy and mentoring other young men.

[43:00] How Nick has changed from the man his wife originally married.

[45:21] The importance of fathers engaging with their children - the 'First 1001 Days'.

[48:10] Nick's hopes for his son, going forward.

[50:06] Advice for those who have experienced abuse, but have never talked about it.

KEY TAKEAWAYS:

  1. Click here for more information on E.M.D.R., known as Eye Movement Desensitisation Reprocessing.
  2. Link to Rosey's website, 'PND and Me', founder of the #PND hour on Twitter.
  3. Listen to the Blue MumDays episode 'When Birth Leads to Trauma' with Dr Rebecca Moore. Find out more about charity 'Make Birth Better' here, Rebecca’s organisation for supporting parents and healthcare professionals suffering from birth trauma or vicarious trauma.
  4. Read more on the book 'The Body Keeps The Score' by Bessel Van Der Kolk, “mind, brain and body in the transformation of trauma”.
  5. This 'Loving Kindness Meditation' will help you relax, reset and recharge. It’s only 15 minutes long and you don’t have to meditate - just close your eyes and listen. There’s no pressure to do anything, but it might just help you to relax. (Thank you to Poonam Dhuffer of YSM8 for creating this specially for Blue MumDays.)
  6. Learn more about award-winning charity 'A Band of Brothers' by clicking on the link. They helped Nick enormously and now he mentors others through it. Its aim is to help young men grow and develop, improving their lives and that of the communities they live in.
  7. Further support for fathers can be found here: Fathers Reaching Out, Music Football Fatherhood, PMH Support, Dope Black Dads and Dad Matters.
  8. LISTEN: Blue MumDays S1 Ep 3 Elliott Rae on PTSD in Fathers.
  9. LISTEN: Blue MumDays S1 Ep 8 The Daddy Blues with Mark Williams and S1 Ep 9 Mark Williams part 2 on PND in Fathers.
  10. LISTEN: Blue MumDays S1 Ep 18 Dr Andrew Mayers discusses PND in dads.
  11. Learn more about the 'First 1001 Days' campaign by clicking this link. The Parent Infant Foundation state that “the first 1001 days include pregnancy and the first two years of a child’s life. There is clear, compelling evidence that this is a significant and influential phase in development.”
  12. Click here for NHS guidance on P.T.S.D. (Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder). There are some good support networks listed there too.
  13. PTSD UK are a UK charity dedicated to raising awareness of post-traumatic stress disorder, no matter the trauma that caused it.

If you enjoyed this episode, please share, rate and subscribe. It really does make the difference in helping others find it – which means helping more parents in need.

Follow us:

Instagram / Twitter / Join our Facebook Group / Email: bluemumdays@gmail.com

 

NEXT EPISODE:

Next time I speak to Laura Bisbey, who was diagnosed with perinatal distress and anxiety during her pregnancy. This sadly continued following the birth of her daughter. Laura tells me about her feelings of rage during the pregnancy, and - once her daughter had been born - her struggles with bonding and the onset of O.C.D. (obsessive compulsive disorder). It's a tremendously brave conversation and I am so grateful to Laura for sharing her story with us.

SUPPORT:

*FOR SUPPORT SPECIFIC TO THIS EPISODE, PLEASE SEE THE KEY TAKEAWAYS*

If you are struggling right now, please know that it’s okay to talk and reach out for help. 

YOU ARE NOT ALONE AND WILL NOT FEEL THIS WAY FOR EVER. 

We hope these support services are helpful (please note we do not check or monitor them individually).

Action on Postpartum Psychosis (APP)

Moderated Forum, click here to find out more.

Email: app@app-network.org / Tel: 020 3322 9900


The ADHD Foundation - the neurodiversity charity

Call us - 0151 541 9020 / Email - info@adhdfoundation.org.uk


AIMS for better birthing.

Email: helpline@aims.org.uk

This email will go to a group of AIMS volunteers and someone will respond as soon as possible. / Telephone: +44 (0) 300 365 0663 (leave message)


Andy's Man Club

A non-judgemental talking group for men

https://andysmanclub.co.uk/club-information/clubs/ info@andysmanclub.co.uk


Association of Postnatal Illness

Helpline: 10am – 2pm – 0207 386 0868 / Email: info@apni.org (Live chat online facility)


Beat Eating Disorders,

The UK's eating disorder charity.

0808 801 0677 / Email: help@beateatingdisorders.org.uk


Best Beginnings

Free NHS-accredited Baby Buddy app offering 24/7 App support for new parents


Bi-Polar UK

email: info@bipolaruk.org


Birth Trauma Association

Email: support@birthtraumaassociation.org.uk


CALM

Contact CALM on their national helpline: 0800 58 58 58 (5pm-midnight)


Cedar House Support Group

Email: lwise@talktalk.net (Liz Wise) / Mobile: 07773 283556


Contact: for families with disabled children

Support, advice and information for parents with disabled children.


Contact a Family

www.cafamily.org.uk

Contact a Family offer support for all childhood conditions, are also able to put families in touch. Featuring a directory of conditions and rare disorders online.

Helpline: 0808 808 3555 (lines open Monday – Friday 9.30am – 5pm)


CLAPA – Cleft Lip and Palate Association

www.clapa.com - Information and support on cleft lip and palate treatment.


Dad Matters

Support dads to have successful relationships with their families, with mental health and accessing services through peer support and signposting.

kierananders@homestarthost.org.uk

0161 344 0669


DadsNet 

Offers support and knowledge through a community of dads on practical parenting and fatherhood.


Dope Black Dads

A digital safe space for fathers who wish to discuss their experiences of being black, a parent and masculinity in the modern world. hello@dopeblack.org


Family Lives

An organisation providing immediate help from volunteer parent support workers 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Helpline: 0808 800 2222 / www.familylives.org.uk


Family Rights Group

Support for parents and other family members whose children are involved with or need social care services. Helpline: 0808 801 0366 /  www.frg.org.uk

 

Fathers Reaching Out

https://www.reachingoutpmh.co.uk/ run by Mark Williams, offering support to dads.


FiveXMore

A grassroots organisation committed to changing Black women and birthing people’s maternal health outcomes in the UK. Email: fivexmore@gmail.com


Gingerbread

Single parents, equal families. Help and advice on the issues that matter to lone parents. Helpline 0808 802 0925 /  www.gingerbread.org.uk


The Hub of Hope - A directory of mental health support around the UK.


LGBT Mummies

Supporting LGBT+ women & people globally on the path to motherhood or parenthood.

Email: contact@lgbtmummies.com


Make Birth Better (Birth Trauma Support)

Email: hello@makebirthbetter.org


Maternal OCD

Peer support available, email info@maternalocd.org to arrange


Mayah's Legacy

Supporting and empowering anyone who has experienced pregnancy loss to advocate for themselves.  Email: info@bigoutreach.org / 0300 102 1596


The Motherhood Group

Dedicated to sharing and supporting the black maternal experience through peer support, projects and advocacy. info@themotherhoodgroup.com


Motivational Mums Club

Offering Trauma, Mindfulness and Meditation sessions for Mothers and Mums to be with an NHS Mental Health Specialist, who’s also a Mother. motivationalmumsclub@gmail.com


Music Football Fatherhood - hello@musicfootballfatherhood.com

Open conversations around fatherhood, including blogs, peer support and podcasts.


Muslim Women’s Network

Helpline: 0800 999 5786, open Mon-Fri 10am–4pm with support offered in English, Urdu, Punjabi, Mirpuri, Putwari, Hindko and Bengali. Email: info@mwnhelpline.co.uk

Online chat: www.mwnhelpline.co.uk / Text: 07415 206 936


National Autistic Society www.autism.org.uk

Support and advice for parents and carers of autistic children, including support to develop a greater understanding of their child’s needs and accessing services that meet the family's needs.


Netmums

Netmums offer peer support via their Maternal Mental Health Drop-InClinic.

 

NHS

Contact your local GP surgery. Call the NHS on 111

or contact a local NHS urgent mental health helpline

If you are in crisis, visit Accident & Emergency at your nearest hospital.

 

PANDAS

Helpline open from 9am-8pm every day – 0843 2898 401

Email support available – info@pandasfoundation.org.uk


Perinatal Wellbeing Ontario

PRENATAL, PREGNANCY AND POSTPARTUM SUPPORT & CONNECTION in Canada

info@perinatalwellbeing.ca


Petals

Petals offers free-of-charge specialist counselling to anyone who has experienced pregnancy or baby loss. Tel: 0300 688 0068

Web: petalscharity.org/counsellingcontact/

Email: counselling@petalscharity.org


Transcripts

NICK RAEBURN:

I'd experienced a bit of trauma, as a child growing up.

NICK RAEBURN:

It was something that I'd, I'd literally kind of buried in my, um, subconscious.

NICK RAEBURN:

A lot of the times during certain situations I'd be very kind

NICK RAEBURN:

of unemotional and not really kind of empathise with people.

NICK RAEBURN:

And I, I very rarely cried as well.

NICK RAEBURN:

That all changed when I had my first child.

NICK RAEBURN:

It was like being hit by a Mac truck full of emotions.

NICK RAEBURN:

Like someone had jacked my central nervous system into a sort of

NICK RAEBURN:

emotional, high voltage cable.

NICK RAEBURN:

Just a pure flood of emotions kind of hit me when she was born.

NICK RAEBURN:

I think I cried for about three days straight, which was bonkers really.

NICK RAEBURN:

I'd buried it literally so far down in my subconscious that it

NICK RAEBURN:

was just, it was a, um, you know...

NICK RAEBURN:

and like anything else, the more you sort of cage and try and lock

NICK RAEBURN:

this stuff up, the more it sort of scratches and tries to, to get out.

NICK RAEBURN:

So when it, when it did get out, it was like "Whoa!"

VIKKI:

Having a baby is meant to be the most joyful time of your life.

VIKKI:

But for many mums and dads, it can be the hardest and at

VIKKI:

times the darkest of places.

VIKKI:

Welcome to Season 2 of Blue MumDays, the podcast for anyone

VIKKI:

struggling with parenting.

VIKKI:

All the stories shared here are from the heart.

VIKKI:

These are real conversations and may be triggering, so

VIKKI:

please listen with discretion.

VIKKI:

We will also signpost you to help in the show notes.

VIKKI:

Thank you.

VIKKI:

This episode was recorded during the spring of 2022.

VIKKI:

Today's guest is Nick Raeburn, aka 'That Social Nerd'.

VIKKI:

Some might call Nick a video guru.

VIKKI:

Others know that his skills lie in bringing the story

VIKKI:

out in the most shy of souls.

VIKKI:

Blasting into the social atmosphere in late 2019 with his honest and raw content,

VIKKI:

Nick has transformed the way social is perceived by many corporate minds.

VIKKI:

He delivers video and high-end social strategy training to large

VIKKI:

companies looking to dominate their industry on social media.

VIKKI:

Nick came to my attention in a very brave and raw post on LinkedIn where he

VIKKI:

talked about the huge flood of emotion he experienced in becoming a dad.

VIKKI:

Prior to having children, Nick had never cried.

VIKKI:

He's here today to share his story with us and talk to us about this transformative

VIKKI:

and very personal experience.

VIKKI:

Before we start this episode, I'd just like to issue a trigger warning.

VIKKI:

We talk about child abuse from the very beginning, so please, if this is

VIKKI:

something that is going to be upsetting to you, please listen with care.

VIKKI:

Thank you.

VIKKI:

Hi Nick.

VIKKI:

Thank you so much for joining us today.

NICK RAEBURN:

It's a pleasure to be here Vikki.

VIKKI:

So can you first of all tell us a little bit about yourself, what

VIKKI:

you were like before you had children?

NICK RAEBURN:

Uh, yeah.

NICK RAEBURN:

Um, I guess I've always been a relatively kind of upbeat

NICK RAEBURN:

and, and, uh, happy individual.

NICK RAEBURN:

But, uh, yeah, before kids, um, I was quite kind of insular a lot of the

NICK RAEBURN:

time and I would often kind of, um, be very hard on myself, kind of beating

NICK RAEBURN:

myself up a lot, for certain things.

NICK RAEBURN:

And I don't know where that, that came from.

NICK RAEBURN:

I'd experienced a bit of trauma, as a child kind of growing up.

NICK RAEBURN:

I was sexually abused for, for a number of years by a close, uh, family relative.

NICK RAEBURN:

And, um,

VIKKI:

My goodness.

NICK RAEBURN:

It was something that I'd, I'd literally kind of

NICK RAEBURN:

buried in my, um, subconscious.

NICK RAEBURN:

A lot of the times during, certain situations I'd be very kind of

NICK RAEBURN:

unemotional and not really kind of empathise with people, um, too much.

NICK RAEBURN:

And, and I, I very rarely cried as well.

NICK RAEBURN:

Um, but I'm gonna start crying in a minute.

VIKKI:

That's okay.

VIKKI:

I'm a blubber!

NICK RAEBURN:

Yeah, and, uh, yeah, that, that all changed, um, when I

NICK RAEBURN:

had, uh, when I had my first child.

NICK RAEBURN:

The way I can kind of best describe it was kind of like being, it was like being

NICK RAEBURN:

hit by a Mac truck full of emotions.

NICK RAEBURN:

It was like someone had jacked my central nervous system into.

NICK RAEBURN:

You know, a sort of um, emotional, high voltage cable.

NICK RAEBURN:

It's the best way I can describe it.

NICK RAEBURN:

It's just like a pure flood of emotions kind of hit me when she was born.

NICK RAEBURN:

I think when she was born, I think I cried for about three days

NICK RAEBURN:

straight, which was bonkers really.

VIKKI:

I mean, they, they do say that there is actually a, a hormonal

VIKKI:

change in dads, which is something I hadn't realised, that actually

VIKKI:

your testosterone levels can drop on, your oestrogen increases.

VIKKI:

But it also sounds like it was the, kind of thing that, um, perhaps got through

VIKKI:

that barrier that you'd imposed on yourself as a, a sort of coping mechanism.

NICK RAEBURN:

Yeah.

NICK RAEBURN:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

NICK RAEBURN:

I've had, therapy since then.

NICK RAEBURN:

I've had, um, uh, what's called E.M.D.R.

NICK RAEBURN:

therapy (Eye Movement Desensitisation and Reprocessing), which is- I, I

NICK RAEBURN:

think this is kind of best described in layman's terms cause I'm not an

NICK RAEBURN:

expert- but, but I think, um, when you go through trauma, the memory kind

NICK RAEBURN:

of gets stuck and you kind of relive that trauma a lot of the time through

NICK RAEBURN:

any kind of high stress situations.

NICK RAEBURN:

And I think in people that have gone through trauma, you

NICK RAEBURN:

experience, uh, emotion much more strongly than most people.

NICK RAEBURN:

Your bandwidth or capacity to experience emotion is, is much

NICK RAEBURN:

narrower than most people.

NICK RAEBURN:

So obviously when she was born, it was like being plugged into a high

NICK RAEBURN:

voltage cable full of emotion.

NICK RAEBURN:

It was just nuts.

NICK RAEBURN:

I think it's kind of, why I've always kind of been fascinated with stories.

NICK RAEBURN:

As a kid, I used to sort of disappear and escape into stories

NICK RAEBURN:

and just to kind of escape from reality really a lot of the time.

NICK RAEBURN:

So,

VIKKI:

Did you get any support at the time when you were growing up?

NICK RAEBURN:

No, cause it was, it was, um, I mean there's obviously

NICK RAEBURN:

a lot of shame attached to that especially as a male as well.

NICK RAEBURN:

So I didn't speak to anyone about it.

NICK RAEBURN:

Um, and only just before I think my daughter was born, I sort

NICK RAEBURN:

of brought it up with my wife and, uh, spoke to her about it.

NICK RAEBURN:

And it's kind of been a very gradual process, with the sort of coming to

NICK RAEBURN:

terms of those things suddenly, you know, a light switch, uh, flicks on.

NICK RAEBURN:

I think it's, it's having a certain amount of insight

NICK RAEBURN:

to, to recognise it as well.

NICK RAEBURN:

One of the things that's definitely helped me as well, and this sounds

NICK RAEBURN:

really weird, but, um, being on social and being on LinkedIn, doing the job

NICK RAEBURN:

I do, it's almost quite cathartic.

NICK RAEBURN:

It's almost like a digital form of journaling.

NICK RAEBURN:

So you are, you're kind of, you're putting a lot of yourself out there and

NICK RAEBURN:

you, and you come to terms with a lot of things because you are expressing

NICK RAEBURN:

how you feel in that particular moment.

NICK RAEBURN:

And a lot of us don't do that on a day-to-day basis.

NICK RAEBURN:

We don't stop and check ourselves and go, " I feel like . This

NICK RAEBURN:

and why do I feel like this?

NICK RAEBURN:

What's affected me?"

NICK RAEBURN:

And, and, and, you know, just, just stopping, slowing down and breathing

NICK RAEBURN:

for five minutes and just checking why you feel the way you feel is, yeah.

NICK RAEBURN:

It's game changing.

VIKKI:

So I guess it's a bit like sort of previously people would blog about

VIKKI:

how they were feeling and certainly people like, um, Rosey of 'PND and

VIKKI:

Me' and other people like that.

VIKKI:

They started off blogging, just as a way of getting their thoughts down on paper.

VIKKI:

Elliot Rae of 'Music, Football, Fatherhood'.

VIKKI:

And so you are actually taking this one stage further.

VIKKI:

Have you actually seen a sea change in terms of how more 'human' and authentic

VIKKI:

people are being since the pandemic?

NICK RAEBURN:

Uh, definitely.

NICK RAEBURN:

Yeah.

NICK RAEBURN:

There's been a massive shift.

NICK RAEBURN:

In some ways I think it's one of the best things to ever affect us as a species.

NICK RAEBURN:

For people to slow down enough, to stop and ask themselves who they are.

NICK RAEBURN:

You know, some people spend their entire lives going through their lives not

NICK RAEBURN:

knowing who they are at their core.

NICK RAEBURN:

And that is, um, it's sad, really.

NICK RAEBURN:

I think COVID has allowed us to slow down, stop enough and for people

NICK RAEBURN:

to go, "Why am I doing this job?

NICK RAEBURN:

Is this really me?"

NICK RAEBURN:

And that's not to say, you know, you sort of find out who

NICK RAEBURN:

you are and, and that that's it.

NICK RAEBURN:

The best way I can describe it.

NICK RAEBURN:

I had, um, a mentor I was working with, when I was kind of going through this

NICK RAEBURN:

initially, and I said to him, "It feels like I've literally just climbed Everest.

NICK RAEBURN:

I've got to the peak and there's another bigger mountain over the horizon

NICK RAEBURN:

that I've got to now go and climb!"

NICK RAEBURN:

It's not a, um, you know, a kind of quick fix thing.

NICK RAEBURN:

I firmly believe that anything in life, that is good for you is hard work.

NICK RAEBURN:

It, it should be, it's designed to be hard work.

VIKKI:

So before you had your children, were you aware that you

VIKKI:

were putting up barriers or that you were sort of closed emotionally?

NICK RAEBURN:

Um, Not really.

NICK RAEBURN:

I guess I, I think I, I'd buried it, so, I mean, it, it happened

NICK RAEBURN:

when I was really young, um, around kind of four or four or five.

NICK RAEBURN:

And I think I may be, , from a neurological perspective, I think,

NICK RAEBURN:

is it between one and seven, I think is where most of your formation of

NICK RAEBURN:

how you interpret the world is, is, um, formed from that early age.

NICK RAEBURN:

So when that kind of stuff's imprinted on you from that age, it really does affect

NICK RAEBURN:

you from a, neurological standpoint.

NICK RAEBURN:

Um, yeah.

NICK RAEBURN:

No, I don't remember.

NICK RAEBURN:

It was definitely after she was born, that I was like, "Where

NICK RAEBURN:

has this come from suddenly?

VIKKI:

Yeah, yeah.

NICK RAEBURN:

Um and I'd buried it literally so far down in

NICK RAEBURN:

my subconscious that it was just, it was a, um, you know...

NICK RAEBURN:

and like anything else, the more you sort of cage and try and lock

NICK RAEBURN:

this stuff up, the more it sort of scratches and tries to, to get out.

NICK RAEBURN:

So when it, when it did get out, it was like, "Whoa!"

VIKKI:

Yeah.

VIKKI:

Yeah.

VIKKI:

Although they always sort of say about suppressed emotions, it's gonna come

VIKKI:

out sooner or later and, uh, you know, you won't have any control over it!

NICK RAEBURN:

Yeah.

NICK RAEBURN:

Yeah.

VIKKI:

So how did you approach the thought of fatherhood and the pregnancy?

VIKKI:

How was that for you?

NICK RAEBURN:

Yeah, it was fascinating.

NICK RAEBURN:

It was, um, probably one of the most amazing things.

NICK RAEBURN:

I remember actually the doctors- my first, because I've got a younger son and an

NICK RAEBURN:

older daughter- and I remember when my daughter was born, I distinctly remember

NICK RAEBURN:

the, um, the doctor shouting at me because like her birth was that they were so

NICK RAEBURN:

different in terms of, um, the process.

NICK RAEBURN:

So and I think maybe, I don't know from a physiological standpoint

NICK RAEBURN:

I guess, my wife's body was more prepared for it second time around.

NICK RAEBURN:

She'd been through it, her body had understood the trauma war.

NICK RAEBURN:

So maybe it is easier the second time around.

NICK RAEBURN:

But her first birth was very traumatic.

NICK RAEBURN:

She was breach, I think, I think she had the cord wrapped around the neck as well.

NICK RAEBURN:

And I think my wife's blood pressure was really, really high at the time

NICK RAEBURN:

as well but I remember I distinctly remember the doctor shouting at me.

NICK RAEBURN:

Because I was like, you know, it's the birth of my first child and I'm

NICK RAEBURN:

there like snapping away a hundred pictures and the doctor's like,

NICK RAEBURN:

"Can you just get out of the way!"

VIKKI:

Yeah- enough of the reportage!

NICK RAEBURN:

Yeah.

NICK RAEBURN:

Um, but just, um, my wife is absolutely, she's incredible.

NICK RAEBURN:

She's superwoman.

NICK RAEBURN:

She's, she's just, um, an amazing lady.

NICK RAEBURN:

Yeah, the, I mean the, the, the difference in their births between, and they're so

NICK RAEBURN:

massively different in their personality as well between her and, um, and him.

NICK RAEBURN:

Um, he, um, I think labour-wise she was, um, yeah, she wasn't in labour

NICK RAEBURN:

for that long, um, I think . When her contractions started, we went to the

NICK RAEBURN:

hospital and I think it was about four hours later, I think he was, he was born.

VIKKI:

Crikey.

VIKKI:

Wow.

NICK RAEBURN:

It was, yeah, really quick.

NICK RAEBURN:

Really quick birth so the difference was extraordinary.

VIKKI:

So with the trauma of the first birth, which unfortunately

VIKKI:

seems to be quite common.

VIKKI:

I have interviewed Dr.

VIKKI:

Rebecca Moore of Make Birth Better -and I would advise anybody affected by birth

VIKKI:

trauma to take a listen to that episode - but did you and your wife have any support

VIKKI:

afterwards in terms of that trauma?

NICK RAEBURN:

Um, so, yeah.

NICK RAEBURN:

I mean all my wife's family, on, uh, her side are pretty much all either

NICK RAEBURN:

psychiatrists or mental health experts.

VIKKI:

really?

NICK RAEBURN:

a,

VIKKI:

Wow.

VIKKI:

That's handy!

NICK RAEBURN:

Which is, is, yeah, it's quite handy.

NICK RAEBURN:

Um, but yeah.

NICK RAEBURN:

I mean, she coped with it, um, admirably well, but I, and I sometimes wonder,

NICK RAEBURN:

like I said, um, I don't know if it's, it's because her body was, was

NICK RAEBURN:

more ready for it second time around.

NICK RAEBURN:

But we, we distinctly made a decision like the second time around.

NICK RAEBURN:

She wanted to have a, completely natural birth.

NICK RAEBURN:

Like the first birth she had an epidural.

NICK RAEBURN:

Um, and, and the second one she didn't.

NICK RAEBURN:

And, and, uh, I think the birthing unit we're based now, um,

NICK RAEBURN:

there's, the main one is in, in Hastings, which is down the road.

NICK RAEBURN:

The one at Eastborne, they don't have any actual doctors there.

NICK RAEBURN:

It's just, it's just midwives.

NICK RAEBURN:

Um, but we, we made a, um, conscious decision to, to, um, do it that way.

NICK RAEBURN:

And it was just a, a much smoother birth.

NICK RAEBURN:

I'm not, I'm not advocating it, you know, either or.

NICK RAEBURN:

But, um, the, the more natural procedures seemed to, it just

NICK RAEBURN:

seemed to work better than, than any kind of medical intervention.

NICK RAEBURN:

It may be a complete coincidence, but...

VIKKI:

Yeah, whatever works for you and for any listeners out there, there is no

VIKKI:

right and wrong in giving birth at all.

VIKKI:

Um, and so.

VIKKI:

Can you describe to us what it was like when you met your

VIKKI:

daughter for the first time?

VIKKI:

Oh, he is going . Yeah.

NICK RAEBURN:

just yeah.

NICK RAEBURN:

In incredible, absolutely incredible.

NICK RAEBURN:

She is, yeah.

NICK RAEBURN:

They're, they're my world.

NICK RAEBURN:

Those two kids.

NICK RAEBURN:

Absolutely.

NICK RAEBURN:

Yeah.

NICK RAEBURN:

It's, well, you can see words, words can't express how, um, how

NICK RAEBURN:

I feel about those two, two kids.

NICK RAEBURN:

And they're, it's, um, it's, uh, I think I explained this to you

NICK RAEBURN:

before, um, it's, uh, it makes you more hyperaware as a parent.

NICK RAEBURN:

I think I'm, you know, in a way I'm almost, um, and this sounds really

NICK RAEBURN:

weird, but I'm almost kind of grateful for the, the, um, the trauma, because

NICK RAEBURN:

it's made me more, uh, hyper-aware as a parent, how they feel emotionally,

NICK RAEBURN:

what they're kind of going through.

NICK RAEBURN:

Like, um, my daughter, um, I did it with her last night and she's

NICK RAEBURN:

got like a, um, uh, a little gratitude book that she fills out.

VIKKI:

Amazing.

NICK RAEBURN:

Just to get her thoughts out there about how she feels and how she's

NICK RAEBURN:

felt kind of during the day and, and, um, just to make her more cognisant of her...

NICK RAEBURN:

we put so much focus on IQ and EQ is so much more important.

NICK RAEBURN:

Just to understand how she feels and how she feels in herself is, is to me...

NICK RAEBURN:

you know, I just, I want like most parents, I just

NICK RAEBURN:

want them both to be happy.

NICK RAEBURN:

Um, so

VIKKI:

and sort of resilient individuals.

VIKKI:

And that's thing, there is a mental health crisis amongst

VIKKI:

children around the world.

VIKKI:

In the UK it was there even before the pandemic.

VIKKI:

And obviously since the pandemic it's exacerbated further.

VIKKI:

And actually the best thing we can do as parents is to open that

VIKKI:

conversation about how you're feeling.

VIKKI:

And I haven't met one person who says that they haven't become a better

VIKKI:

parent as opposed to a worse parent through their mental difficulties.

VIKKI:

so yeah, if you're going through it right now and feeling that you are failing,

VIKKI:

you're not, and actually there will come a time when you come out the other

VIKKI:

end and you will, you will recover.

VIKKI:

Then you will find a time when you can look back and actually see

VIKKI:

that it's, it's made you better.

VIKKI:

It's made your children aware that, you know, life isn't all ups.

VIKKI:

It's a mixture of ups and downs and it's about navigating those challenges

VIKKI:

and, and talking about your feelings

NICK RAEBURN:

That's, that's a, that's a, a big one for me as well.

NICK RAEBURN:

I was very, um, I think most men -I may be generalising here- most

NICK RAEBURN:

men aren't attached enough to their, they don't have high levels of E.Q..

NICK RAEBURN:

They don't talk about how they feel a lot of the time.

NICK RAEBURN:

And the difference is made in my relationship with my wife is huge,

NICK RAEBURN:

um, because she loves to talk.

NICK RAEBURN:

Um, and, and I didn't so much.

NICK RAEBURN:

I would always be kind of clammed up and now we talk, we sit on the

NICK RAEBURN:

sofa, we just talk for hours about just anything and everything.

NICK RAEBURN:

So it's, it's deepened our relationship as well, which is amazing.

VIKKI:

That's wonderful to hear because especially when you're new parents-

VIKKI:

if you're lucky enough to have a partner- it can put a huge strain

VIKKI:

on the relationship and especially when you are like ships that pass in

VIKKI:

the night and, you know, navigating those early months of like no sleep!

VIKKI:

And I remember going to bed about eight o'clock and, and you know, just.

NICK RAEBURN:

I distinctly remember us arguing about

NICK RAEBURN:

who would be going bed first!

VIKKI:

Yeah, I mean literally, believe it or not, Nick, I

VIKKI:

used to be quite rock and roll.

VIKKI:

I used to be in an all-girl rock band.

VIKKI:

I'd go out all the time till like four in the morning and stuff.

VIKKI:

And then suddenly I was going to bed at eight and my husband was coming

VIKKI:

home, because he's an editor, he'd come home from work about half seven.

VIKKI:

So we'd, oooh!

VIKKI:

We'd have about half an hour together and yeah, it was rubbish!

VIKKI:

And , you know, at points, I, I had like an oversupply breastfeeding issue, so

VIKKI:

I had to put like cabbage leaves in my in my bra to control the milk supply.

VIKKI:

And, sorry, T.M.I.

VIKKI:

(too much information), I'll need to put a trigger warning about that!

VIKKI:

But he would like have to, you know, he would help by like washing the

VIKKI:

leaves and like hitting them with, because they're like really tough.

VIKKI:

You have to hit them with a rolling pin!

VIKKI:

And so that was our interaction, you know, half an hour and him

VIKKI:

preparing my cabbage leaves!

NICK RAEBURN:

I, I, I dunno what, um, what.

NICK RAEBURN:

What was going through her mind as well in terms of the, the age gaps.

NICK RAEBURN:

My oldest daughter is, she's 10 and my son's two, he'll be three in,

VIKKI:

that's, that's quite a big gap then.

VIKKI:

Yeah.

NICK RAEBURN:

I, it's just like, it's like, oh, we've just, we've just sorted

NICK RAEBURN:

the, you know, we've got the, we've ticked the kid box and everything's

NICK RAEBURN:

fine and dandy and she's sleeping.

NICK RAEBURN:

And the difference as well, like I was saying, between the two, like

NICK RAEBURN:

when she was born, she lulled us into a false sense of security.

NICK RAEBURN:

She'd go down at seven, wake up at seven and be like, 12 hours asleep.

NICK RAEBURN:

We'd be like, we'd be like, this is like what?

NICK RAEBURN:

I know.

NICK RAEBURN:

It's like, "Well, this parenting lark, what, what are people going about?

NICK RAEBURN:

Like, this is easy.

NICK RAEBURN:

This is, this is a doddle!"

NICK RAEBURN:

And then, and then he came along , it's like, it's like up

NICK RAEBURN:

every, every hour on the dot.

NICK RAEBURN:

Um, uh, uh, and just, yeah, the, the difference, um, in them both, it's like,

NICK RAEBURN:

you know, we've kind of, we've got, we've got this sorted that we'll just add a bit

NICK RAEBURN:

more chaos into the mix, which is him!

NICK RAEBURN:

But, um, yeah, touch wood he's finally starting to, uh, to sleep now.

NICK RAEBURN:

And

VIKKI:

So you're coming out of it a bit.

NICK RAEBURN:

Yeah, the, the repercussions for, um, I think that's the biggest thing,

NICK RAEBURN:

um, that affects and, and people don't...

NICK RAEBURN:

they underestimate that.

NICK RAEBURN:

The biggest thing that affects, how your day goes is, is lack of sleep.

VIKKI:

Oh my God,

NICK RAEBURN:

it getting a, a decent night's sleep is, it works

NICK RAEBURN:

wonders for, for your, um, your cognitive bias, everything.

NICK RAEBURN:

You just feel happier.

NICK RAEBURN:

And that's the biggest thing I think that ends up kind of, um, ruining

NICK RAEBURN:

your day, um, is the lack of sleep.

VIKKI:

Yeah.

VIKKI:

And if any new parents are listening to this podcast and going through the

VIKKI:

unrelenting hell of no sleep, we're here just to say it does get better.

NICK RAEBURN:

It does, it does get better!

VIKKI:

You will, I, I know what it's like when you have a newborn, or even

VIKKI:

in the first year of their life, you feel like you're never going to have

VIKKI:

evenings back or your life back.

VIKKI:

You know, where you sit down with your partner- if you're lucky enough

VIKKI:

to have a partner -watch the TV, or, you know, have a drink, whatever.

VIKKI:

It isn't forever, even though it may feel like it at the time.

NICK RAEBURN:

The the, best, uh, I, I'm not one for, for giving out

NICK RAEBURN:

advice, but, but get it where you can if you, if you need to have a

NICK RAEBURN:

snooze, you know, if the, if the kids are sleeping and you are home looking

NICK RAEBURN:

after them, then have a sleep as well.

NICK RAEBURN:

Um, you know, just, just get some shut eye so that your, your, uh,

NICK RAEBURN:

your, your, uh, compos (mentis) for, for the rest of the day.

NICK RAEBURN:

So, yeah, that has a big effect.

NICK RAEBURN:

Yes.

NICK RAEBURN:

And, for anybody who is struggling sleeping, cuz I had terrible insomnia

NICK RAEBURN:

when, when Stanley was little.

NICK RAEBURN:

Um, sometimes the pressure to sleep is also all consuming.

NICK RAEBURN:

So even just closing your eyes and resting can have a positive impact.

NICK RAEBURN:

And if you have the time and the inclination, there is a 'Loving

NICK RAEBURN:

Kindness', 15 minute meditation.

NICK RAEBURN:

So if you're really struggling to relax or to sleep, um, please listen

NICK RAEBURN:

to that special bonus episode and I hope it's helpful in making you feel

NICK RAEBURN:

a bit sort of soothed and calmer.

NICK RAEBURN:

That's, I I, interesting you say calm.

NICK RAEBURN:

Cause that's, um, that's one of my, um, I'm a big advocate of the CALM app.

NICK RAEBURN:

I use that every morning.

NICK RAEBURN:

But it's, it's weird, isn't it?

NICK RAEBURN:

How, how that, that shift in, um, like you were saying about Covid, how people

NICK RAEBURN:

are more focused on their EQ and, and a company like Calm can become as large

NICK RAEBURN:

as it has because people, there's a need for people to, to, um, be self-reflective

NICK RAEBURN:

and practice gratitude and meditate and just look inwards a bit more and, and

NICK RAEBURN:

not be, I think that's what happens is we're, we're so distracted on a day-to-day

NICK RAEBURN:

basis by all this, all this, these lights and noise and shiny things, and

NICK RAEBURN:

it's like, if you take all that stuff away, it forces you to focus on you.

NICK RAEBURN:

And that's, that's the important part.

NICK RAEBURN:

You focus on, you, you start to view the world slightly

NICK RAEBURN:

differently than you did before.

NICK RAEBURN:

So,

VIKKI:

Yeah.

VIKKI:

Yeah.

VIKKI:

And if you've never meditated before, there is no right and wrong.

VIKKI:

It's literally listen to it for 15 minutes.

VIKKI:

You don't even have to be lying down.

VIKKI:

And if you fall asleep, fine, great.

VIKKI:

You know, that's brilliant.

VIKKI:

If you fall asleep.

VIKKI:

Or if your mind wanders, that's completely normal.

VIKKI:

They're a bit like sort of passing clouds that you just let them drift through.

VIKKI:

Um, so yeah, please give it a try and let us know how you get on.

VIKKI:

But, um, back to you and taking your daughter home, how were

VIKKI:

the first few days for you?

NICK RAEBURN:

Um, yeah, like I said, I think, um, I think I cried

NICK RAEBURN:

for about three days straight!

NICK RAEBURN:

I remember the first night distinctly, because they had to keep my wife in,

NICK RAEBURN:

uh, just, just for, um, kind of routine checkup so I couldn't be with them,

NICK RAEBURN:

that first evening, I think I probably got about a three hour sleep because

NICK RAEBURN:

I was just, I was just awake in bed, just crying, literally just crying.

NICK RAEBURN:

It hurt me to be away from them both, yeah.

NICK RAEBURN:

It was, uh, just, just incredible.

NICK RAEBURN:

But then I started to notice kind of changes in my uh, behavior.

NICK RAEBURN:

Like I, I'd be very, I'd be very conscious of the way other adults

NICK RAEBURN:

were with her and were around her.

NICK RAEBURN:

And that's when I started to kind of get a bit of insight into, like

NICK RAEBURN:

I said, it had kind of opened the floodgates a little bit on my trauma.

NICK RAEBURN:

It's almost like someone whacked me over the head with a brick.

NICK RAEBURN:

I think if it had been more subtle and sort of creeped up, and I probably

NICK RAEBURN:

wouldn't have paid much attention to it.

NICK RAEBURN:

But because it was such a, a big thing, um, at the time, it

NICK RAEBURN:

forced me to go, hold on a minute.

NICK RAEBURN:

There's something you, you know, um, there's a great book the Body Keeps the

NICK RAEBURN:

Score where your, your brain, uh, tries to trick you or, or tries to, to close that

NICK RAEBURN:

stuff off, but your body, um, remembers.

NICK RAEBURN:

And it's a, a book that's well worth reading.

NICK RAEBURN:

But um, yeah, it forced me to kind of go down that path and start to address the

NICK RAEBURN:

reason why I was was feeling like this, you know, kind of getting angry with

NICK RAEBURN:

people for no reason if they, if they kind of touched her or went near her.

NICK RAEBURN:

And, it kind of forced me to be - especially with

NICK RAEBURN:

her- really overprotective.

NICK RAEBURN:

And I was like, well, I was like, does, is this normal for a father

NICK RAEBURN:

to, to kind of feel like this?

NICK RAEBURN:

And it just, yeah, it kind forced me to to look into it and address why

NICK RAEBURN:

I was feeling the way I was feeling.

VIKKI:

Were you with- obviously, without going into detail, and we

VIKKI:

can skip this if, if you don't feel comfortable- but had you been aware

VIKKI:

of the trauma in the past or had you managed to repress it so much that it

VIKKI:

wasn't part of who you saw yourself as?

NICK RAEBURN:

Yeah, I think I, I think I'd managed to repress it so

NICK RAEBURN:

much, um, that it, yeah it was like, it was not even a, not even so much

NICK RAEBURN:

as a memory, it was just, it was just some kind of dark part of me, I guess.

NICK RAEBURN:

I was sort of seen it as, as kind of my, my kind of, yeah.

NICK RAEBURN:

Sort of dark part of me, I guess, and, and things like,

NICK RAEBURN:

um, you know, kind of getting...

NICK RAEBURN:

and that, that's what I find fascinating about this as a, as a man as well.

NICK RAEBURN:

Like, um, you know, things like we we're told as men not to get angry, and I always

NICK RAEBURN:

saw that, um, I always saw getting angry as, as kind of a, an instance of me

NICK RAEBURN:

kind of losing control and I, and sort of going into that, you know, obviously

NICK RAEBURN:

not understanding where the anger was, was coming from, but, but as men, I

NICK RAEBURN:

think we should celebrate and it's, it's something as men that, that we don't.

NICK RAEBURN:

We can tap into that anger and we can use it as a positive form of energy.

NICK RAEBURN:

There's so much negative connotation attached to anger, I think as men,

NICK RAEBURN:

which kind of makes me angry, ironically!

NICK RAEBURN:

Um, um, the, uh, I think I was, I always, I always saw myself as, um, and I did, I

NICK RAEBURN:

did a post about it a little while ago.

NICK RAEBURN:

It was a picture of my son on my shoulders, um, uh, kind of holding

NICK RAEBURN:

his, uh, arms out and I took a picture of him sat on my shoulders

NICK RAEBURN:

and I was like, "This is how I feel.

NICK RAEBURN:

Um, cause it's, the little boy's kind of trapped inside me and, um, I'm trying

NICK RAEBURN:

to articulate this in the best way I can.

NICK RAEBURN:

And I always saw that, uh, you know, the trauma, the things that happened to

NICK RAEBURN:

me as kind of a dark part of me, but.

NICK RAEBURN:

But they're not, they're, they're all me.

NICK RAEBURN:

It's, it's, you know, our, our darkness and our lie is what makes us

NICK RAEBURN:

whole and what makes us who we are.

NICK RAEBURN:

So you have to accept it and appreciate it as well.

VIKKI:

And do you think your outburst of emotion when your children were

VIKKI:

born, do you think in a way you were grieving the loss of your childhood?

NICK RAEBURN:

Absolutely.

NICK RAEBURN:

Yeah.

NICK RAEBURN:

Yeah, a hundred percent.

NICK RAEBURN:

Um, it's, uh, . I am still now, I'm, uh, I'm just like a giant man-child!

NICK RAEBURN:

I'm, you know, I'm, I'm obsessed with them, with, uh, playing with the kids and,

NICK RAEBURN:

and kind of reliving my childhood through them, which, um, I guess is, there's,

NICK RAEBURN:

there's pluses and minuses, uh, to that.

NICK RAEBURN:

But yeah I definitely, to a point kind of trying to sort of relive

NICK RAEBURN:

those, those experiences, so...

NICK RAEBURN:

But I also realise that I'm a grown up and I have responsibility

NICK RAEBURN:

and all the rest of it!

NICK RAEBURN:

that

VIKKI:

But you know what the play is something so intrinsic to human

VIKKI:

beings and, you know, even children don't get as many opportunities to

VIKKI:

play and to be free as they used to.

NICK RAEBURN:

That's how they get to that, how they get to, uh, to kind

NICK RAEBURN:

of prod and poke at the world and experience where boundaries are and

NICK RAEBURN:

experience how relationships are formed.

NICK RAEBURN:

And, and, uh, all the rest of it.

NICK RAEBURN:

I'm listening to Jordan Peterson's '12 Rules for Life' at the moment.

NICK RAEBURN:

And it's, uh, it's, uh, an amazing book.

NICK RAEBURN:

I listen to it on, on the audiobook, and there's a, I think it's Chapter Seven,

NICK RAEBURN:

about seven minutes in on the audiobook.

NICK RAEBURN:

He talks about an experience where he had this, um, I think it was a

NICK RAEBURN:

two-year-old boy that his mother would neglect him and he wouldn't eat.

NICK RAEBURN:

She wouldn't feed him.

NICK RAEBURN:

And, um, he was talking about his, uh, his wife took the boy and then she kind

NICK RAEBURN:

of sat with him there for 10 minutes trying to get him to feed himself.

NICK RAEBURN:

And, uh, she congratulated him.

NICK RAEBURN:

And, every mouthful was like, "Well, you know, well done.

NICK RAEBURN:

You're doing really, really well!"

NICK RAEBURN:

And then he explained that whole day afterwards, he kind of just

NICK RAEBURN:

followed her around like a puppy, just sort of sat with her...

NICK RAEBURN:

it's a really kind of beautiful moment in the book.

NICK RAEBURN:

I think it's always good to see, uh, other men crying, I think!

NICK RAEBURN:

Like I said, I had over 110 D.M.s (direct messages) the day I posted that video.

NICK RAEBURN:

I had a guy, uh, reach out to me, a complete stranger, who'd been

NICK RAEBURN:

through exactly the same thing I had and, and, uh, just phoned me out

NICK RAEBURN:

the blue and we ended up having a conversation and I was crying on the

NICK RAEBURN:

phone and he was crying on the phone.

NICK RAEBURN:

That's the power of social media to, allow you to tell your story at scale so

NICK RAEBURN:

that, so that you can help other people.

NICK RAEBURN:

It's amazing that we live in a world where, we can share stories openly

NICK RAEBURN:

and, and, allow other people to kind of, you know, realise that we're

NICK RAEBURN:

not as different as we think we are.

VIKKI:

And it clearly resonated hugely.

VIKKI:

And the thing is the more we talk about these things, the better it

VIKKI:

is for everybody -because I mean, that's why I did this podcast, to

VIKKI:

normalise the conversation, to get rid of the stigma of perinatal illness.

NICK RAEBURN:

There's so much stigma attached to ... and that's part

NICK RAEBURN:

of the power the, um, abusers tap into, they know that there's so much

NICK RAEBURN:

stigma around trauma and they know most of the time that the people

NICK RAEBURN:

that they abuse won't talk about it.

NICK RAEBURN:

And that's where they have the power.

NICK RAEBURN:

So yeah, to to own that and take that power back is, is hugely important.

VIKKI:

And it goes back to you, you know, as you say, it's about owning your story

VIKKI:

and making it yours and validating the, the little boy that went through that.

VIKKI:

Absolutely.

VIKKI:

It's very interesting you talking about the male perspective because

VIKKI:

one thing that I've really learned on this journey doing this podcast

VIKKI:

is the amount of fathers affected by the birth of their children.

VIKKI:

You know, for one reason or another.

VIKKI:

I think the current rate is one in 10 fathers are affected by postnatal

VIKKI:

depression, and that is just the ones that come forward and actually talk about it.

VIKKI:

Do you think as a culture we put or impose an idea of what being

VIKKI:

a man is, what masculinity is.

NICK RAEBURN:

Yeah, absolutely and there needs to be spaces for men to

NICK RAEBURN:

experience and be around other men.

NICK RAEBURN:

And that's part of a charity that, that I've, um, come into contact with.

NICK RAEBURN:

When my daughter was born, I kind of ... it's weird, isn't it?

NICK RAEBURN:

How your, your brain does these things?

NICK RAEBURN:

But at that point, I wanted to join the charity and there was a part of me

NICK RAEBURN:

that wanted to do it, and I wasn't ready.

NICK RAEBURN:

And it wasn't until my son was born, seven years later that I was like,

NICK RAEBURN:

"Okay, I'm, I'm ready now to, to do this, and I'm gonna do it for her, I'm

NICK RAEBURN:

gonna do it for him and I'm gonna do it for me and, and my wife as well."

NICK RAEBURN:

And, um, and it's, yeah, it's, it's a beautiful charity.

NICK RAEBURN:

It's called 'A Band of Brothers'.

NICK RAEBURN:

And it's, uh, it's older men mentoring younger men that have, you know, some

NICK RAEBURN:

of these, some of the stories, the, these young men, the things that have

NICK RAEBURN:

happened to them are just astronomical.

NICK RAEBURN:

Just the most awful things.

NICK RAEBURN:

But having an older man, a mentor in place that, that can say, "You know, I've

NICK RAEBURN:

been through what you've been through and I'm still here and I'm better for it."

NICK RAEBURN:

Just sort of a guide - I mean a lot of these young men have kind of been through

NICK RAEBURN:

the prison system and just there's a...

NICK RAEBURN:

I think especially with men, because they don't talk about this stuff, they

NICK RAEBURN:

tend to, there's a, uh, I can't, and I can't remember the exact line, but

NICK RAEBURN:

there's something like, um- it's on the 'A Band of Brothers' website- a

NICK RAEBURN:

young man will burn down an entire village just to feel warmth."

NICK RAEBURN:

You know, so many young men just kind of lash out with

NICK RAEBURN:

anger - there's that word again.

NICK RAEBURN:

And they need guidance that they need to be shown that there's right

NICK RAEBURN:

ways of doing things and there's, there's wrong ways of doing things.

NICK RAEBURN:

And it's just a great community and a great space for men to just sit and like,

NICK RAEBURN:

you know, I sit in circles with these men and they're complete strangers and

NICK RAEBURN:

I feel comfortable and safe with them.

NICK RAEBURN:

And I, I trust them with my life.

NICK RAEBURN:

They're, they're amazing, amazing men.

VIKKI:

I'll make sure I put a link to their website in the show

VIKKI:

notes because I think they sound like an incredible organisation.

VIKKI:

And also just for any dads who are affected by this episode,

VIKKI:

there are other resources.

VIKKI:

So there's 'Music, Football, Fatherhood', run by Elliott Rae- again,

VIKKI:

there's a link in the show notes.

VIKKI:

And also 'Fathers Reaching Out' which is organised by Mark Williams,

VIKKI:

who's been an absolute pioneer with regards to talking out about

VIKKI:

the, the male parental experience.

VIKKI:

I think this mentorship is so important because as a society, in the old days,

VIKKI:

you, you had sort of families, like wider families growing up together

VIKKI:

and staying in the same neighborhood.

VIKKI:

So perhaps you would have a bit more of a, a father figure or an older male

VIKKI:

relative who you you know, if, if you were lucky, opened up with you and encouraged

VIKKI:

conversation and gave you that guidance.

VIKKI:

but today's society is so fragmented, we don't have those ready support networks.

NICK RAEBURN:

Well this is something that, um, and I said this because we

NICK RAEBURN:

use, um, we use kind of a system I guess.

NICK RAEBURN:

Um, we take kind of Jungian archetypes.

NICK RAEBURN:

So with A Band of Brothers, there's what we would call the Lover,

NICK RAEBURN:

the Warrior and the Magician.

NICK RAEBURN:

And they're governed by the Sovereign.

NICK RAEBURN:

So your Lover is your kind of um, emotional energy or,

NICK RAEBURN:

or sexual relationships.

NICK RAEBURN:

The Warrior is your anger and it's your doing energy.

NICK RAEBURN:

And the Magician is your, your brain basically your, your thoughts.

NICK RAEBURN:

And the Sovereign governs those three aspects of your, your personality.

NICK RAEBURN:

You know, some men can be too much Warrior, some men can be too much

NICK RAEBURN:

Magician- they overthink things.

NICK RAEBURN:

It's it's having those all in balance.

NICK RAEBURN:

The book that we use, which kind of goes through these concepts, is a, book called,

NICK RAEBURN:

um, 'Parcival and the Stone From Heaven'.

NICK RAEBURN:

It's a really old text.

NICK RAEBURN:

I think it's over a thousand years old.

NICK RAEBURN:

Um, and, and I, sometimes I look at that text and, and it, and it's been

NICK RAEBURN:

translated from an earlier story.

NICK RAEBURN:

I kind of look at that book and I think to myself, did we,

NICK RAEBURN:

did we always know this stuff?

NICK RAEBURN:

Was it always, you know, kind of in inherent in, um, in, in

NICK RAEBURN:

cultures and traditions over time?

NICK RAEBURN:

And we've, we've lost it.

NICK RAEBURN:

We've lost the concept of it.

NICK RAEBURN:

Because we don't, you know, we don't listen to our elders, we don't having,

NICK RAEBURN:

having elders in place and, and that's, you know, one of the aspects of, of

NICK RAEBURN:

what we do when we circle up is there is an elder there, there's an older

NICK RAEBURN:

man, which kind of helps lead the circle and imparts knowledge and wisdom.

NICK RAEBURN:

But we don't have that in society.

NICK RAEBURN:

You know, how often do we kind to see our, our grandparents or older

NICK RAEBURN:

people and just hang out with them and have conversations with them?

NICK RAEBURN:

We don't.

NICK RAEBURN:

It's just, it's uh, it's, you're right, it's, it's society has become more and

NICK RAEBURN:

more, um, fragmented as a, as a result.

NICK RAEBURN:

So it's a very, I guess because it's a, a male thing, there's a

NICK RAEBURN:

very sort of strong sense of, um, kind of tribalism to it.

NICK RAEBURN:

And it's kind of what appealed to me is that we're, there's something

NICK RAEBURN:

so inherent in our makeup and our DNA as a species to accept stories

NICK RAEBURN:

and help, you know, have stories in place to help us kind of understand

NICK RAEBURN:

how to, to, um, traverse a path.

NICK RAEBURN:

And that's kind of what we do with that story.

NICK RAEBURN:

And that's what massively appealed to me because that's a large

NICK RAEBURN:

component of, uh, who, who I am.

NICK RAEBURN:

It's weird how you are, how all these things kind of, when you kind of stop

NICK RAEBURN:

and step back and look at them, how all those things kind of click into place.

NICK RAEBURN:

But when you are inside it, you just can't see the wood for the trees, I guess.

VIKKI:

Yeah.

VIKKI:

Yeah.

VIKKI:

And so were they helpful to you in terms of your recovery?

NICK RAEBURN:

Hmm.

VIKKI:

Or had you recovered sufficiently?

NICK RAEBURN:

So, I did, um, I had what's called the E.M.D.R.

NICK RAEBURN:

(Eye Movement Desensitisation and Reprocessing) Therapy which

NICK RAEBURN:

kind of helps with the trauma in terms of kind of processing it.

NICK RAEBURN:

So I'd have that,

NICK RAEBURN:

um,

VIKKI:

Has that to do with eye movement?

NICK RAEBURN:

So, um, uh, yes, it simulates R.E.M.

NICK RAEBURN:

I guess, which is rapid eye movement, which is what happens when you sleep.

NICK RAEBURN:

So, um, that's what happens with the trauma, is the memory kind of gets, stuck

NICK RAEBURN:

and it doesn't get processed properly.

NICK RAEBURN:

So what they do is they get you to go back through the trauma

NICK RAEBURN:

again, and they get you to, I think originally it used to, be kind of

NICK RAEBURN:

following a finger, but now I think they get you to kind of tap on each

NICK RAEBURN:

shoulder just to process, you know, to get the left of my brain kind of working.

NICK RAEBURN:

And to actually process the trauma so it becomes just a

NICK RAEBURN:

memory rather than a stuck thing.

NICK RAEBURN:

Because when you experience anything kind of, um, really kind of stressful,

NICK RAEBURN:

it's like flicking a switch and it just brings that trauma back.

NICK RAEBURN:

Yeah, it kinda processes the, uh, the memory.

NICK RAEBURN:

Uh, yes.

NICK RAEBURN:

I'd had therapy and I'd had sessions before I joined them, but it's helped

NICK RAEBURN:

me massively in terms of, it's given, you know, it's, it's a large

NICK RAEBURN:

part of my 'why', my purpose really.

NICK RAEBURN:

I've teased the, the kind of, uh, uh, and, and that's what we do is, is,

NICK RAEBURN:

you know, is a classic heroes journey.

NICK RAEBURN:

It's like, you know, the hero kind of starts and they find out who

NICK RAEBURN:

they're, then they become the hero.

NICK RAEBURN:

And, and I, I feel, I, I feel like I've gone through that and now I can help

NICK RAEBURN:

other younger men to do the same thing.

VIKKI:

And I think it's a wonderful thing, you know, taking something that was so

VIKKI:

hugely negative, such a dark experience.

VIKKI:

but one that's caused profound change, you know, as part of your healing journey.

VIKKI:

And to be able to use that experience to guide other men,

VIKKI:

I think is an incredible thing.

VIKKI:

And I'm starting to go now!

VIKKI:

Do you ever find resistance in some of the men that you speak to,

VIKKI:

especially if they've been very angry?

NICK RAEBURN:

Oh, oh, yeah, absolutely.

NICK RAEBURN:

It's a large part of, of what we do, kind of helping you

NICK RAEBURN:

know, initiate, um, young men.

NICK RAEBURN:

We go through a lot through the, um, uh, police system, so, I

NICK RAEBURN:

men that have kind of come out of parole, they've come through the

NICK RAEBURN:

prison system and, and there's so much pushback from them initially,

NICK RAEBURN:

Because, you know, we, we've got a, a Quest weekend coming up, which is

NICK RAEBURN:

in April, which is where the younger men kind of start on this journey.

NICK RAEBURN:

And some of them, they turn up and, they just leave.

NICK RAEBURN:

Because it's like, the kind of unknown.

NICK RAEBURN:

It's like, "Why am I here?

NICK RAEBURN:

I don't wanna do this, this stuff!"

NICK RAEBURN:

But the change in them when they've been through this stuff

NICK RAEBURN:

is just, it's, almost like magic.

NICK RAEBURN:

, it's, uh, it's amazing to see.

VIKKI:

You know, a lot of what you're saying resonates so heavily

VIKKI:

with me about, what you were saying about the channeling of that anger.

VIKKI:

And actually, if you channel that anger directly, it can be incredible for like,

VIKKI:

drive and achieving things and ambition.

NICK RAEBURN:

Yeah, I remember one of my favorite authors, who passed

NICK RAEBURN:

away a few years ago, Terry Pratchett.

NICK RAEBURN:

He was a very angry writer, but when you look at his, I mean, you can kind

NICK RAEBURN:

of see it in a lot of his prose.

NICK RAEBURN:

But yeah, he used his anger in it in a really positive way.

NICK RAEBURN:

And it's natural sometimes for anyone to feel angry.

NICK RAEBURN:

But it's good to take that anger because there's, there's so much energy in it

NICK RAEBURN:

and getting you to channel it in the right way is, it's very powerful.

VIKKI:

Yeah.

VIKKI:

And the, the other thing that really resonated with me was you talking

VIKKI:

about how distress for a lot of men- and, you know, it seems very common

VIKKI:

to the experience of children -that, you know, disruptive behavior is a

VIKKI:

way that they try and cope with those difficult emotions, and that actually,

VIKKI:

if you have a child who is being very naughty or going off the rails, it's

VIKKI:

often because they're a damaged child or that, they're going through a problem

VIKKI:

that, that they can't comprehend or...

NICK RAEBURN:

they're

VIKKI:

...have tools to express what's going on.

NICK RAEBURN:

They're trying to go "Pay attention to me.

NICK RAEBURN:

I need help here."

NICK RAEBURN:

And that's what really, again, angers me, and there's that word again about

NICK RAEBURN:

society, is that we see, people like this and we see young men like this as

NICK RAEBURN:

a hindrance or a thing that we need to kind of brush away and put to one side.

NICK RAEBURN:

And, and you look at anyone that's been, you know , has kind of substance abuse

NICK RAEBURN:

or there's usually at the core of that, a reason for why that person's like that.

NICK RAEBURN:

Um, and I think if we could as, uh, as a society more of us could look into

NICK RAEBURN:

that and kind of, and, and that's what 'A Band Of Brothers' are trying to do,

NICK RAEBURN:

treat the root cause of that problem.

NICK RAEBURN:

Not, not stick a bandaid on it and say, this is, you know,

NICK RAEBURN:

"On your way, off you go."

NICK RAEBURN:

Try and actually get to the core of, of the fundamental reason that

NICK RAEBURN:

person is like that and, and try and, um, re repair that, that damage.

NICK RAEBURN:

It's, uh, it's hugely important.

VIKKI:

Yeah, I, I remember Mark Williams saying , in one of the previous episodes

VIKKI:

about how he went through extreme alcohol abuse and how that, that is

VIKKI:

quite common in the fathers that he speaks to, that it's a way of trying

VIKKI:

to, again, repress those feelings.

VIKKI:

And also it's the way our culture is, you know, 'go down the pub

VIKKI:

and have a drink and forget it'.

VIKKI:

Um but the more I explore these things, the more I actually...

VIKKI:

um, I had a very, very difficult relationship with my father.

VIKKI:

He was, uh, an absolute bully.

VIKKI:

He was a tyrant.

VIKKI:

And very emotionally -like you weren't allowed, or, or you were

VIKKI:

belittled for showing any emotion.

VIKKI:

He was very cold in that way.

VIKKI:

And yeah, without a doubt, he screwed me up good and proper!

NICK RAEBURN:

Do you ever stop and think why he was like that?

VIKKI:

Well.

VIKKI:

It's, it's funny.

VIKKI:

So he passed away six years ago now.

VIKKI:

And both myself, my brother and my mom were all treated as complete failures

VIKKI:

and like an albatross around his neck.

VIKKI:

And I had such grief and anger when he passed away.

VIKKI:

And this guy terrified me for years, you know, right throughout adulthood.

VIKKI:

He terrified me.

VIKKI:

Uh, he was very emotionally abusive, but now I'm able to sort of look with

VIKKI:

empathy and I think he was very damaged.

VIKKI:

I think he was hugely damaged and that the way he was, was his way of coping.

VIKKI:

And that actually if he'd had help ...or, you know, I remember seeing a therapist

VIKKI:

when I was in my twenties and she said to me, "Look, I don't think you need

VIKKI:

the counselling, I think your dad does."

VIKKI:

So, I think, yeah, it's been a very difficult journey for me to

VIKKI:

look at him with compassion, but actually it's very healing to be

VIKKI:

able to do so, without a doubt.

NICK RAEBURN:

Yes.

NICK RAEBURN:

Yeah.

NICK RAEBURN:

So, um, uh, Jordan Peterson mentions that, a lot of uh, people that go

NICK RAEBURN:

through, trauma or, or abuse that, you know, it is kind of testament to

NICK RAEBURN:

the human condition and the goodness in people that we break those cycles.

NICK RAEBURN:

It's important.

NICK RAEBURN:

Um, yeah, I think you do come to a point where you kind of, do kind of

NICK RAEBURN:

reach a, a place of, um, empathy.

NICK RAEBURN:

but again, like I said, a lot of what we do with 'A Band

NICK RAEBURN:

of Brothers' is, is to it's.

NICK RAEBURN:

It's very, you know, we we're told oh, you know, " You shouldn't express anger."

NICK RAEBURN:

And it's wrong to express anger.

NICK RAEBURN:

We get the young men to express that anger, um, to, to get 'em, to focus

NICK RAEBURN:

that anger on the people that cause the things that happen to them.

NICK RAEBURN:

And that's an important part of the healing process for them.

NICK RAEBURN:

So it's okay to feel angry about this.

NICK RAEBURN:

It's normal and, uh, natural to, to feel angry about this stuff.

NICK RAEBURN:

So you can kind of, yeah.

NICK RAEBURN:

Just, just heal.

VIKKI:

And let it out.

VIKKI:

Your relationship must have changed greatly with your wife then,

VIKKI:

because from the man she married to the man who then became a father.

VIKKI:

It sounds like there's been a huge shift in you, and that must have been quite

VIKKI:

something for her to experience as well.

NICK RAEBURN:

I, have I I haven't,

NICK RAEBURN:

I haven't - it's interesting you've just mentioned that actually.

NICK RAEBURN:

Because I haven't thought about that in terms of, um, yeah, whether she saw

NICK RAEBURN:

that in me initially when we first, you know, we were sort of courting and stuff.

NICK RAEBURN:

I don't, I don't know.

NICK RAEBURN:

Uh, but yeah, you're right that the, the man that she kind of knew and

NICK RAEBURN:

fell in love with is very different to the man that she's married to now.

NICK RAEBURN:

But you know, from a personal standpoint, that man has grown and has a higher E.Q.

NICK RAEBURN:

needed and he's the man he needs to be at the moment in time for his kids.

NICK RAEBURN:

So...

VIKKI:

Yeah.

VIKKI:

And a bloody good dad because of that.

VIKKI:

And I think it's so important that- especially in a world with, you know,

VIKKI:

such incredible uncertainty, as we're talking, there's horrendous

VIKKI:

things going on in Ukraine.

VIKKI:

Um, and you know, with the pandemic and everything - it is

VIKKI:

so important that leaders become much more emotionally intelligent.

VIKKI:

You know, we're not really going to understand the repercussions

VIKKI:

of these uncertain times that we live in for a long time.

VIKKI:

And I grew up feeling that being sensitive was a weakness and a failing, but

VIKKI:

actually it's my superpower now, you know?

VIKKI:

And that took a long time for me to come round to thinking like that!

NICK RAEBURN:

The thing that you think is actually your biggest

NICK RAEBURN:

flaw, your biggest weakness a lot of the time is your biggest strength.

NICK RAEBURN:

It's understanding and seeing that for what it is.

NICK RAEBURN:

And that that's, it's having the insight to recognise that, um, and realise it

NICK RAEBURN:

and getting, getting yourself to see that is, extremely difficult sometimes!

VIKKI:

Yeah.

VIKKI:

And being an empathetic, compassionate person, you know, can

VIKKI:

be exhausting, don't get me wrong!

NICK RAEBURN:

Yeah.

VIKKI:

It's bad enough watching a Disney movie.

VIKKI:

You know, my God, the emotions I go through with that!

VIKKI:

But I do think, yeah, you know, it's not a flaw to be human.

VIKKI:

This is what makes us who we are.

VIKKI:

And I, I love your analogy to stories and why stories are so important to you and

VIKKI:

I think the fact that you sort of sit down and play with your children is

VIKKI:

wonderful because, again, another Mark Williams, uh, statistic that he brings in

VIKKI:

that actually in the first 1001 days of children's formative years- I think that's

VIKKI:

the first three years- there is a huge impact that is made on them from fathers

VIKKI:

playing with their children, reading to their children, sitting, singing

VIKKI:

with the children, dancing with them.

VIKKI:

And if you have a father that is cut off in that way, you know, who may be going

VIKKI:

through difficulties of their own that there is a direct impact on your child.

NICK RAEBURN:

Well, it's, it's almost a form of emotional abuse as well.

NICK RAEBURN:

Sometimes you can't see it if, if you are, if there's so much trauma there

NICK RAEBURN:

you are distancing yourself from your family because of it, the cycle continues

NICK RAEBURN:

because you are, you are, it's a form of emotional abuse that the child isn't

NICK RAEBURN:

getting the affection, the love, and the attention that they need from you to, to

NICK RAEBURN:

shape who they need to be in the world.

NICK RAEBURN:

So if you, yeah, if you can't take care of yourself, then you can't take care of them

NICK RAEBURN:

and you're only going to repeat that cycle again, kind of knowingly or unknowingly.

VIKKI:

Yeah.

VIKKI:

Yeah.

VIKKI:

And so the first part of getting help is, you know, and it's, it's really hard

VIKKI:

to come forward and say "I need help.

VIKKI:

I need support.

VIKKI:

I'm not okay."

VIKKI:

But the sooner you do that, the sooner you will get help, you will

VIKKI:

recover -because you WILL recover.

VIKKI:

You know, everybody does get through this and depression and

VIKKI:

anxiety are, are horrible illnesses, but you can recover from them.

NICK RAEBURN:

It's that first step on that path to becoming, um, yeah, becoming a

NICK RAEBURN:

hero, is to take that first initial step.

NICK RAEBURN:

Once you do that, the road's long, but, but the steps get easier, so

VIKKI:

Yeah, Yeah.

VIKKI:

And there's a lot of ups and downs, you know, there's no quick fix.

VIKKI:

It isn't like a linear curve that just goes upwards all the way.

VIKKI:

There's, you know, two steps forward, one step back, that old cliche.

VIKKI:

But the recovery doesn't just help you.

VIKKI:

It helps everybody.

VIKKI:

You have a, yeah, it helps the whole family.

VIKKI:

And that's not to make you feel guilty for the impact you may or may not

VIKKI:

be having on your child now, because if your child is fed and sheltered,

VIKKI:

that is incredible, you know?

VIKKI:

And if you don't feel a bond right now with your child,

VIKKI:

that is okay, that happens.

VIKKI:

But you can get that bond, you know, you just need some support.

VIKKI:

And it will happen over time.

VIKKI:

So don't feel guilty because you didn't ask for this, you know, you did not ask

VIKKI:

for this illness, and there is light at the end of the tunnel, and Nick

VIKKI:

and, I are here to sort of prove that.

VIKKI:

So Nick, what, what are your hopes for your son, especially going forward

VIKKI:

in terms of, you know, what it means to be a man in the modern world?

VIKKI:

Sorry, that's a really bit question isn't it?!

NICK RAEBURN:

It is - staggeringly huge!

NICK RAEBURN:

Um, I, I think just, uh, giving him, that emotional resilience, you know,

NICK RAEBURN:

showing, that men can cry, that they can feel emotions, that they can be,

NICK RAEBURN:

um, loving having all those, those parts of your psyche in balance.

NICK RAEBURN:

Um, I'm going through my, my mentoring cycle now with 'A Band

NICK RAEBURN:

of Brothers', so I'll be taking on a mentee after, um, April.

NICK RAEBURN:

So, you know, going through those things is going to help me become a better

NICK RAEBURN:

father and hopefully help me be able to effectively mentor my son as well.

NICK RAEBURN:

So, I think like most parents, I want him to be happy and healthy and

NICK RAEBURN:

resilient and just know his mind, which he already does at three years old!

NICK RAEBURN:

I think he's almost got, got me and me and my wife wrapped around his little fingers.

NICK RAEBURN:

Like, like the, the conversations we have with him!

NICK RAEBURN:

Because he's, he's just starting to, to kind of talk now, like his vocabulary's

NICK RAEBURN:

getting bigger, but the other day it's like, I'm gonna make him a juice.

NICK RAEBURN:

And it's like "No, no, I want this particular flavour juice

NICK RAEBURN:

in this particular cup!"

NICK RAEBURN:

It's like but yeah, he already knows his own mind.

NICK RAEBURN:

Definitely, at nearly three years old!

NICK RAEBURN:

So

VIKKI:

They, they do.

NICK RAEBURN:

Uh, yeah, like most parents just, just, they're resilient, um,

NICK RAEBURN:

and that they're happy and that they're healthy and they understand who they are.

NICK RAEBURN:

That's, that's something what most parents want, for their kids.

VIKKI:

Yeah, that's all we can hope for with our children.

VIKKI:

You know, that we can't take away life's challenges, but we can help them meet

VIKKI:

those challenges with resilience and with, an aptitude to know where to,

VIKKI:

to go for help and support and to be able to talk about how they're feeling.

VIKKI:

And for anybody that might be listening to this, who have very

VIKKI:

sadly experienced the trauma of abuse themselves, but may have never talked

VIKKI:

about that experience, is there any advice that you could offer them?

NICK RAEBURN:

I guess probably the biggest, one for me is, um make sure

NICK RAEBURN:

that when you do kind of finally talk to someone, speak to someone that you

NICK RAEBURN:

have a strong relationship with, that can be kind of confidential about this

NICK RAEBURN:

stuff like a partner for example.

NICK RAEBURN:

And that will kind of help and support you because it's not, you know,

NICK RAEBURN:

although you are doing most of the work, you don't do this journey alone.

NICK RAEBURN:

Other people are gonna gonna help you on the journey.

NICK RAEBURN:

So that first initial step make sure that you choose the right person to kind of

NICK RAEBURN:

express that you've kind been through this thing or that you are experiencing

NICK RAEBURN:

this difficulty in the first instance.

VIKKI:

And, and somebody who you know will not be judgemental...

NICK RAEBURN:

Yeah.

VIKKI:

...about that information because I think when you're opening up about any

VIKKI:

mental illness- but I can imagine it's much more pronounced when you've been

VIKKI:

through something so traumatic as, as you have that you feel very vulnerable

VIKKI:

and you worry about how you are going to be perceived once that 'secret' is out.

VIKKI:

But actually I've found in speaking about my postnatal depression,

VIKKI:

that actually people are much more understanding and often say "Me too,

VIKKI:

but I was too afraid to talk about it."

NICK RAEBURN:

You afraid to say it, yeah, yeah.

NICK RAEBURN:

It does, It does require a certain amount of bravery, I think to, to kind of just,

NICK RAEBURN:

just admit it to yourself and to just say to the world, this is, you know...

NICK RAEBURN:

we're so conditioned in Western society to kind of accept social norms and it's

NICK RAEBURN:

like "Ooh we don't talk about this."

NICK RAEBURN:

And the shift that I've seen probably over the last five years and the conversation

NICK RAEBURN:

around the stigma of mental health.

NICK RAEBURN:

Like I, when I was younger, I came out of university and I worked as a a mental

NICK RAEBURN:

health nursing assistant for a few years.

NICK RAEBURN:

So that, you know, again, there may have been a part of my

NICK RAEBURN:

subconscious that thought, "Well, I need, I need to do this."

NICK RAEBURN:

Like, you can't always trace the dots looking forward, but if you stop and

NICK RAEBURN:

look back at it, so probably a part of me was like, "There's a reason I did that."

NICK RAEBURN:

Just like there's a reason why I've joined, 'A Band of Brothers' at

NICK RAEBURN:

this particular point in my life.

NICK RAEBURN:

So a part of my subconscious was obviously going, you know, you need to, you need

NICK RAEBURN:

to be around people that, that are like you and try and look after people

NICK RAEBURN:

that are like you because there's, there's, there's a lot of us out there!

VIKKI:

Yeah.

VIKKI:

Yeah.

VIKKI:

And you, you've been incredibly brave and, uh, so honest and it's just been a joy to,

VIKKI:

to speak to you today.

VIKKI:

You know, very heavy subject matter.

VIKKI:

But you're still, you know, one inspiring dad and, uh, I could imagine that, you

VIKKI:

know, you are the world to your family.

VIKKI:

So thank you for sharing your story with us and, and for spending

VIKKI:

the time with us this morning.

NICK RAEBURN:

I've got plenty of toilet roll now!

VIKKI:

I know!

VIKKI:

It's It's like I should have a competition for regular listeners as to, you

VIKKI:

know, guess, guess how many minutes?

VIKKI:

Yeah.

VIKKI:

many rolls did you get through!

VIKKI:

How many minutes before I started blubbing!

NICK RAEBURN:

Yeah.

VIKKI:

If you've enjoyed this episode of Blue MumDays, please like and subscribe.

VIKKI:

It really does make the difference in helping other people find it,

VIKKI:

and that means helping more parents.

Chapters

Video

More from YouTube