NICK RAEBURN: 00:00:00

I'd experienced a bit of trauma, as a child growing up.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:00:03

It was something that I'd, I'd literally kind of buried in my, um, subconscious.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:00:08

A lot of the times during certain situations I'd be very kind

NICK RAEBURN: 00:00:11

of unemotional and not really kind of empathise with people.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:00:15

And I, I very rarely cried as well.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:00:17

That all changed when I had my first child.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:00:20

It was like being hit by a Mac truck full of emotions.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:00:23

Like someone had jacked my central nervous system into a sort of

NICK RAEBURN: 00:00:28

emotional, high voltage cable.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:00:30

Just a pure flood of emotions kind of hit me when she was born.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:00:34

I think I cried for about three days straight, which was bonkers really.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:00:39

I'd buried it literally so far down in my subconscious that it

NICK RAEBURN: 00:00:42

was just, it was a, um, you know...

NICK RAEBURN: 00:00:45

and like anything else, the more you sort of cage and try and lock

NICK RAEBURN: 00:00:48

this stuff up, the more it sort of scratches and tries to, to get out.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:00:51

So when it, when it did get out, it was like "Whoa!"

VIKKI: 00:00:56

Having a baby is meant to be the most joyful time of your life.

VIKKI: 00:01:01

But for many mums and dads, it can be the hardest and at

VIKKI: 00:01:05

times the darkest of places.

VIKKI: 00:01:09

Welcome to Season 2 of Blue MumDays, the podcast for anyone

VIKKI: 00:01:13

struggling with parenting.

VIKKI: 00:01:15

All the stories shared here are from the heart.

VIKKI: 00:01:19

These are real conversations and may be triggering, so

VIKKI: 00:01:22

please listen with discretion.

VIKKI: 00:01:25

We will also signpost you to help in the show notes.

VIKKI: 00:01:28

Thank you.

VIKKI: 00:01:30

This episode was recorded during the spring of 2022.

VIKKI: 00:01:36

Today's guest is Nick Raeburn, aka 'That Social Nerd'.

VIKKI: 00:01:40

Some might call Nick a video guru.

VIKKI: 00:01:42

Others know that his skills lie in bringing the story

VIKKI: 00:01:45

out in the most shy of souls.

VIKKI: 00:01:48

Blasting into the social atmosphere in late 2019 with his honest and raw content,

VIKKI: 00:01:53

Nick has transformed the way social is perceived by many corporate minds.

VIKKI: 00:01:58

He delivers video and high-end social strategy training to large

VIKKI: 00:02:01

companies looking to dominate their industry on social media.

VIKKI: 00:02:06

Nick came to my attention in a very brave and raw post on LinkedIn where he

VIKKI: 00:02:10

talked about the huge flood of emotion he experienced in becoming a dad.

VIKKI: 00:02:15

Prior to having children, Nick had never cried.

VIKKI: 00:02:18

He's here today to share his story with us and talk to us about this transformative

VIKKI: 00:02:23

and very personal experience.

VIKKI: 00:02:26

Before we start this episode, I'd just like to issue a trigger warning.

VIKKI: 00:02:30

We talk about child abuse from the very beginning, so please, if this is

VIKKI: 00:02:35

something that is going to be upsetting to you, please listen with care.

VIKKI: 00:02:39

Thank you.

VIKKI: 00:02:41

Hi Nick.

VIKKI: 00:02:42

Thank you so much for joining us today.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:02:44

It's a pleasure to be here Vikki.

VIKKI: 00:02:46

So can you first of all tell us a little bit about yourself, what

VIKKI: 00:02:50

you were like before you had children?

NICK RAEBURN: 00:02:52

Uh, yeah.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:02:53

Um, I guess I've always been a relatively kind of upbeat

NICK RAEBURN: 00:02:56

and, and, uh, happy individual.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:02:59

But, uh, yeah, before kids, um, I was quite kind of insular a lot of the

NICK RAEBURN: 00:03:03

time and I would often kind of, um, be very hard on myself, kind of beating

NICK RAEBURN: 00:03:07

myself up a lot, for certain things.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:03:10

And I don't know where that, that came from.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:03:13

I'd experienced a bit of trauma, as a child kind of growing up.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:03:17

I was sexually abused for, for a number of years by a close, uh, family relative.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:03:21

And, um,

VIKKI: 00:03:22

My goodness.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:03:23

It was something that I'd, I'd literally kind of

NICK RAEBURN: 00:03:25

buried in my, um, subconscious.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:03:28

A lot of the times during, certain situations I'd be very kind of

NICK RAEBURN: 00:03:31

unemotional and not really kind of empathise with people, um, too much.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:03:35

And, and I, I very rarely cried as well.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:03:38

Um, but I'm gonna start crying in a minute.

VIKKI: 00:03:40

That's okay.

VIKKI: 00:03:41

I'm a blubber!

NICK RAEBURN: 00:03:42

Yeah, and, uh, yeah, that, that all changed, um, when I

NICK RAEBURN: 00:03:46

had, uh, when I had my first child.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:03:48

The way I can kind of best describe it was kind of like being, it was like being

NICK RAEBURN: 00:03:52

hit by a Mac truck full of emotions.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:03:54

It was like someone had jacked my central nervous system into.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:04:00

You know, a sort of um, emotional, high voltage cable.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:04:03

It's the best way I can describe it.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:04:04

It's just like a pure flood of emotions kind of hit me when she was born.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:04:09

I think when she was born, I think I cried for about three days

NICK RAEBURN: 00:04:11

straight, which was bonkers really.

VIKKI: 00:04:16

I mean, they, they do say that there is actually a, a hormonal

VIKKI: 00:04:20

change in dads, which is something I hadn't realised, that actually

VIKKI: 00:04:24

your testosterone levels can drop on, your oestrogen increases.

VIKKI: 00:04:28

But it also sounds like it was the, kind of thing that, um, perhaps got through

VIKKI: 00:04:36

that barrier that you'd imposed on yourself as a, a sort of coping mechanism.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:04:41

Yeah.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:04:41

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:04:42

I've had, therapy since then.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:04:43

I've had, um, uh, what's called E.M.D.R.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:04:45

therapy (Eye Movement Desensitisation and Reprocessing), which is- I, I

NICK RAEBURN: 00:04:47

think this is kind of best described in layman's terms cause I'm not an

NICK RAEBURN: 00:04:49

expert- but, but I think, um, when you go through trauma, the memory kind

NICK RAEBURN: 00:04:53

of gets stuck and you kind of relive that trauma a lot of the time through

NICK RAEBURN: 00:04:56

any kind of high stress situations.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:04:58

And I think in people that have gone through trauma, you

NICK RAEBURN: 00:05:01

experience, uh, emotion much more strongly than most people.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:05:04

Your bandwidth or capacity to experience emotion is, is much

NICK RAEBURN: 00:05:08

narrower than most people.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:05:10

So obviously when she was born, it was like being plugged into a high

NICK RAEBURN: 00:05:12

voltage cable full of emotion.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:05:14

It was just nuts.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:05:16

I think it's kind of, why I've always kind of been fascinated with stories.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:05:19

As a kid, I used to sort of disappear and escape into stories

NICK RAEBURN: 00:05:23

and just to kind of escape from reality really a lot of the time.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:05:27

So,

VIKKI: 00:05:28

Did you get any support at the time when you were growing up?

NICK RAEBURN: 00:05:32

No, cause it was, it was, um, I mean there's obviously

NICK RAEBURN: 00:05:35

a lot of shame attached to that especially as a male as well.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:05:39

So I didn't speak to anyone about it.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:05:41

Um, and only just before I think my daughter was born, I sort

NICK RAEBURN: 00:05:45

of brought it up with my wife and, uh, spoke to her about it.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:05:49

And it's kind of been a very gradual process, with the sort of coming to

NICK RAEBURN: 00:05:52

terms of those things suddenly, you know, a light switch, uh, flicks on.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:05:56

I think it's, it's having a certain amount of insight

NICK RAEBURN: 00:05:59

to, to recognise it as well.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:06:02

One of the things that's definitely helped me as well, and this sounds

NICK RAEBURN: 00:06:04

really weird, but, um, being on social and being on LinkedIn, doing the job

NICK RAEBURN: 00:06:09

I do, it's almost quite cathartic.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:06:11

It's almost like a digital form of journaling.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:06:14

So you are, you're kind of, you're putting a lot of yourself out there and

NICK RAEBURN: 00:06:17

you, and you come to terms with a lot of things because you are expressing

NICK RAEBURN: 00:06:20

how you feel in that particular moment.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:06:22

And a lot of us don't do that on a day-to-day basis.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:06:25

We don't stop and check ourselves and go, " I feel like . This

NICK RAEBURN: 00:06:29

and why do I feel like this?

NICK RAEBURN: 00:06:30

What's affected me?"

NICK RAEBURN: 00:06:31

And, and, and, you know, just, just stopping, slowing down and breathing

NICK RAEBURN: 00:06:35

for five minutes and just checking why you feel the way you feel is, yeah.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:06:39

It's game changing.

VIKKI: 00:06:40

So I guess it's a bit like sort of previously people would blog about

VIKKI: 00:06:44

how they were feeling and certainly people like, um, Rosey of 'PND and

VIKKI: 00:06:49

Me' and other people like that.

VIKKI: 00:06:51

They started off blogging, just as a way of getting their thoughts down on paper.

VIKKI: 00:06:56

Elliot Rae of 'Music, Football, Fatherhood'.

VIKKI: 00:06:59

And so you are actually taking this one stage further.

VIKKI: 00:07:03

Have you actually seen a sea change in terms of how more 'human' and authentic

VIKKI: 00:07:10

people are being since the pandemic?

NICK RAEBURN: 00:07:13

Uh, definitely.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:07:14

Yeah.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:07:14

There's been a massive shift.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:07:16

In some ways I think it's one of the best things to ever affect us as a species.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:07:21

For people to slow down enough, to stop and ask themselves who they are.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:07:26

You know, some people spend their entire lives going through their lives not

NICK RAEBURN: 00:07:28

knowing who they are at their core.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:07:30

And that is, um, it's sad, really.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:07:33

I think COVID has allowed us to slow down, stop enough and for people

NICK RAEBURN: 00:07:36

to go, "Why am I doing this job?

NICK RAEBURN: 00:07:38

Is this really me?"

NICK RAEBURN: 00:07:40

And that's not to say, you know, you sort of find out who

NICK RAEBURN: 00:07:43

you are and, and that that's it.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:07:45

The best way I can describe it.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:07:46

I had, um, a mentor I was working with, when I was kind of going through this

NICK RAEBURN: 00:07:50

initially, and I said to him, "It feels like I've literally just climbed Everest.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:07:53

I've got to the peak and there's another bigger mountain over the horizon

NICK RAEBURN: 00:07:59

that I've got to now go and climb!"

NICK RAEBURN: 00:08:00

It's not a, um, you know, a kind of quick fix thing.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:08:03

I firmly believe that anything in life, that is good for you is hard work.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:08:09

It, it should be, it's designed to be hard work.

VIKKI: 00:08:12

So before you had your children, were you aware that you

VIKKI: 00:08:17

were putting up barriers or that you were sort of closed emotionally?

NICK RAEBURN: 00:08:22

Um, Not really.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:08:25

I guess I, I think I, I'd buried it, so, I mean, it, it happened

NICK RAEBURN: 00:08:28

when I was really young, um, around kind of four or four or five.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:08:33

And I think I may be, , from a neurological perspective, I think,

NICK RAEBURN: 00:08:36

is it between one and seven, I think is where most of your formation of

NICK RAEBURN: 00:08:40

how you interpret the world is, is, um, formed from that early age.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:08:43

So when that kind of stuff's imprinted on you from that age, it really does affect

NICK RAEBURN: 00:08:47

you from a, neurological standpoint.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:08:50

Um, yeah.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:08:51

No, I don't remember.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:08:53

It was definitely after she was born, that I was like, "Where

NICK RAEBURN: 00:08:57

has this come from suddenly?

VIKKI: 00:09:00

Yeah, yeah.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:09:00

Um and I'd buried it literally so far down in

NICK RAEBURN: 00:09:03

my subconscious that it was just, it was a, um, you know...

NICK RAEBURN: 00:09:06

and like anything else, the more you sort of cage and try and lock

NICK RAEBURN: 00:09:09

this stuff up, the more it sort of scratches and tries to, to get out.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:09:12

So when it, when it did get out, it was like, "Whoa!"

VIKKI: 00:09:16

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:09:16

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:09:17

Although they always sort of say about suppressed emotions, it's gonna come

VIKKI: 00:09:20

out sooner or later and, uh, you know, you won't have any control over it!

NICK RAEBURN: 00:09:26

Yeah.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:09:27

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:09:27

So how did you approach the thought of fatherhood and the pregnancy?

VIKKI: 00:09:33

How was that for you?

NICK RAEBURN: 00:09:35

Yeah, it was fascinating.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:09:36

It was, um, probably one of the most amazing things.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:09:39

I remember actually the doctors- my first, because I've got a younger son and an

NICK RAEBURN: 00:09:43

older daughter- and I remember when my daughter was born, I distinctly remember

NICK RAEBURN: 00:09:47

the, um, the doctor shouting at me because like her birth was that they were so

NICK RAEBURN: 00:09:52

different in terms of, um, the process.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:09:54

So and I think maybe, I don't know from a physiological standpoint

NICK RAEBURN: 00:09:57

I guess, my wife's body was more prepared for it second time around.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:10:00

She'd been through it, her body had understood the trauma war.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:10:03

So maybe it is easier the second time around.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:10:06

But her first birth was very traumatic.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:10:08

She was breach, I think, I think she had the cord wrapped around the neck as well.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:10:12

And I think my wife's blood pressure was really, really high at the time

NICK RAEBURN: 00:10:14

as well but I remember I distinctly remember the doctor shouting at me.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:10:17

Because I was like, you know, it's the birth of my first child and I'm

NICK RAEBURN: 00:10:20

there like snapping away a hundred pictures and the doctor's like,

NICK RAEBURN: 00:10:23

"Can you just get out of the way!"

VIKKI: 00:10:27

Yeah- enough of the reportage!

NICK RAEBURN: 00:10:29

Yeah.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:10:30

Um, but just, um, my wife is absolutely, she's incredible.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:10:34

She's superwoman.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:10:35

She's, she's just, um, an amazing lady.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:10:37

Yeah, the, I mean the, the, the difference in their births between, and they're so

NICK RAEBURN: 00:10:41

massively different in their personality as well between her and, um, and him.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:10:45

Um, he, um, I think labour-wise she was, um, yeah, she wasn't in labour

NICK RAEBURN: 00:10:50

for that long, um, I think . When her contractions started, we went to the

NICK RAEBURN: 00:10:55

hospital and I think it was about four hours later, I think he was, he was born.

VIKKI: 00:10:58

Crikey.

VIKKI: 00:10:59

Wow.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:11:00

It was, yeah, really quick.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:11:01

Really quick birth so the difference was extraordinary.

VIKKI: 00:11:06

So with the trauma of the first birth, which unfortunately

VIKKI: 00:11:09

seems to be quite common.

VIKKI: 00:11:12

I have interviewed Dr.

VIKKI: 00:11:13

Rebecca Moore of Make Birth Better -and I would advise anybody affected by birth

VIKKI: 00:11:19

trauma to take a listen to that episode - but did you and your wife have any support

VIKKI: 00:11:24

afterwards in terms of that trauma?

NICK RAEBURN: 00:11:28

Um, so, yeah.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:11:29

I mean all my wife's family, on, uh, her side are pretty much all either

NICK RAEBURN: 00:11:34

psychiatrists or mental health experts.

VIKKI: 00:11:36

really?

NICK RAEBURN: 00:11:37

a,

VIKKI: 00:11:37

Wow.

VIKKI: 00:11:38

That's handy!

NICK RAEBURN: 00:11:38

Which is, is, yeah, it's quite handy.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:11:41

Um, but yeah.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:11:43

I mean, she coped with it, um, admirably well, but I, and I sometimes wonder,

NICK RAEBURN: 00:11:46

like I said, um, I don't know if it's, it's because her body was, was

NICK RAEBURN: 00:11:51

more ready for it second time around.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:11:52

But we, we distinctly made a decision like the second time around.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:11:56

She wanted to have a, completely natural birth.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:11:58

Like the first birth she had an epidural.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:12:00

Um, and, and the second one she didn't.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:12:02

And, and, uh, I think the birthing unit we're based now, um,

NICK RAEBURN: 00:12:07

there's, the main one is in, in Hastings, which is down the road.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:12:10

The one at Eastborne, they don't have any actual doctors there.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:12:13

It's just, it's just midwives.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:12:15

Um, but we, we made a, um, conscious decision to, to, um, do it that way.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:12:19

And it was just a, a much smoother birth.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:12:22

I'm not, I'm not advocating it, you know, either or.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:12:25

But, um, the, the more natural procedures seemed to, it just

NICK RAEBURN: 00:12:28

seemed to work better than, than any kind of medical intervention.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:12:32

It may be a complete coincidence, but...

VIKKI: 00:12:34

Yeah, whatever works for you and for any listeners out there, there is no

VIKKI: 00:12:39

right and wrong in giving birth at all.

VIKKI: 00:12:43

Um, and so.

VIKKI: 00:12:45

Can you describe to us what it was like when you met your

VIKKI: 00:12:48

daughter for the first time?

VIKKI: 00:12:52

Oh, he is going . Yeah.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:12:56

just yeah.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:12:57

In incredible, absolutely incredible.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:13:01

She is, yeah.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:13:04

They're, they're my world.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:13:06

Those two kids.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:13:08

Absolutely.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:13:10

Yeah.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:13:10

It's, well, you can see words, words can't express how, um, how

NICK RAEBURN: 00:13:16

I feel about those two, two kids.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:13:18

And they're, it's, um, it's, uh, I think I explained this to you

NICK RAEBURN: 00:13:24

before, um, it's, uh, it makes you more hyperaware as a parent.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:13:32

I think I'm, you know, in a way I'm almost, um, and this sounds really

NICK RAEBURN: 00:13:35

weird, but I'm almost kind of grateful for the, the, um, the trauma, because

NICK RAEBURN: 00:13:40

it's made me more, uh, hyper-aware as a parent, how they feel emotionally,

NICK RAEBURN: 00:13:46

what they're kind of going through.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:13:48

Like, um, my daughter, um, I did it with her last night and she's

NICK RAEBURN: 00:13:52

got like a, um, uh, a little gratitude book that she fills out.

VIKKI: 00:13:57

Amazing.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:13:58

Just to get her thoughts out there about how she feels and how she's

NICK RAEBURN: 00:14:03

felt kind of during the day and, and, um, just to make her more cognisant of her...

NICK RAEBURN: 00:14:09

we put so much focus on IQ and EQ is so much more important.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:14:14

Just to understand how she feels and how she feels in herself is, is to me...

NICK RAEBURN: 00:14:19

you know, I just, I want like most parents, I just

NICK RAEBURN: 00:14:22

want them both to be happy.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:14:23

Um, so

VIKKI: 00:14:25

and sort of resilient individuals.

VIKKI: 00:14:27

And that's thing, there is a mental health crisis amongst

VIKKI: 00:14:31

children around the world.

VIKKI: 00:14:33

In the UK it was there even before the pandemic.

VIKKI: 00:14:37

And obviously since the pandemic it's exacerbated further.

VIKKI: 00:14:41

And actually the best thing we can do as parents is to open that

VIKKI: 00:14:47

conversation about how you're feeling.

VIKKI: 00:14:49

And I haven't met one person who says that they haven't become a better

VIKKI: 00:14:54

parent as opposed to a worse parent through their mental difficulties.

VIKKI: 00:14:59

so yeah, if you're going through it right now and feeling that you are failing,

VIKKI: 00:15:03

you're not, and actually there will come a time when you come out the other

VIKKI: 00:15:07

end and you will, you will recover.

VIKKI: 00:15:10

Then you will find a time when you can look back and actually see

VIKKI: 00:15:14

that it's, it's made you better.

VIKKI: 00:15:16

It's made your children aware that, you know, life isn't all ups.

VIKKI: 00:15:23

It's a mixture of ups and downs and it's about navigating those challenges

VIKKI: 00:15:28

and, and talking about your feelings

NICK RAEBURN: 00:15:32

That's, that's a, that's a, a big one for me as well.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:15:35

I was very, um, I think most men -I may be generalising here- most

NICK RAEBURN: 00:15:39

men aren't attached enough to their, they don't have high levels of E.Q..

NICK RAEBURN: 00:15:44

They don't talk about how they feel a lot of the time.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:15:46

And the difference is made in my relationship with my wife is huge,

NICK RAEBURN: 00:15:50

um, because she loves to talk.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:15:53

Um, and, and I didn't so much.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:15:54

I would always be kind of clammed up and now we talk, we sit on the

NICK RAEBURN: 00:15:57

sofa, we just talk for hours about just anything and everything.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:16:01

So it's, it's deepened our relationship as well, which is amazing.

VIKKI: 00:16:05

That's wonderful to hear because especially when you're new parents-

VIKKI: 00:16:10

if you're lucky enough to have a partner- it can put a huge strain

VIKKI: 00:16:14

on the relationship and especially when you are like ships that pass in

VIKKI: 00:16:19

the night and, you know, navigating those early months of like no sleep!

VIKKI: 00:16:25

And I remember going to bed about eight o'clock and, and you know, just.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:16:30

I distinctly remember us arguing about

NICK RAEBURN: 00:16:35

who would be going bed first!

VIKKI: 00:16:38

Yeah, I mean literally, believe it or not, Nick, I

VIKKI: 00:16:42

used to be quite rock and roll.

VIKKI: 00:16:44

I used to be in an all-girl rock band.

VIKKI: 00:16:46

I'd go out all the time till like four in the morning and stuff.

VIKKI: 00:16:49

And then suddenly I was going to bed at eight and my husband was coming

VIKKI: 00:16:54

home, because he's an editor, he'd come home from work about half seven.

VIKKI: 00:16:58

So we'd, oooh!

VIKKI: 00:16:58

We'd have about half an hour together and yeah, it was rubbish!

VIKKI: 00:17:04

And , you know, at points, I, I had like an oversupply breastfeeding issue, so

VIKKI: 00:17:09

I had to put like cabbage leaves in my in my bra to control the milk supply.

VIKKI: 00:17:15

And, sorry, T.M.I.

VIKKI: 00:17:16

(too much information), I'll need to put a trigger warning about that!

VIKKI: 00:17:20

But he would like have to, you know, he would help by like washing the

VIKKI: 00:17:24

leaves and like hitting them with, because they're like really tough.

VIKKI: 00:17:26

You have to hit them with a rolling pin!

VIKKI: 00:17:29

And so that was our interaction, you know, half an hour and him

VIKKI: 00:17:34

preparing my cabbage leaves!

NICK RAEBURN: 00:17:36

I, I, I dunno what, um, what.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:17:39

What was going through her mind as well in terms of the, the age gaps.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:17:42

My oldest daughter is, she's 10 and my son's two, he'll be three in,

VIKKI: 00:17:46

that's, that's quite a big gap then.

VIKKI: 00:17:48

Yeah.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:17:49

I, it's just like, it's like, oh, we've just, we've just sorted

NICK RAEBURN: 00:17:51

the, you know, we've got the, we've ticked the kid box and everything's

NICK RAEBURN: 00:17:54

fine and dandy and she's sleeping.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:17:55

And the difference as well, like I was saying, between the two, like

NICK RAEBURN: 00:17:58

when she was born, she lulled us into a false sense of security.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:18:02

She'd go down at seven, wake up at seven and be like, 12 hours asleep.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:18:06

We'd be like, we'd be like, this is like what?

NICK RAEBURN: 00:18:09

I know.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:18:09

It's like, "Well, this parenting lark, what, what are people going about?

NICK RAEBURN: 00:18:11

Like, this is easy.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:18:12

This is, this is a doddle!"

NICK RAEBURN: 00:18:14

And then, and then he came along , it's like, it's like up

NICK RAEBURN: 00:18:18

every, every hour on the dot.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:18:20

Um, uh, uh, and just, yeah, the, the difference, um, in them both, it's like,

NICK RAEBURN: 00:18:24

you know, we've kind of, we've got, we've got this sorted that we'll just add a bit

NICK RAEBURN: 00:18:28

more chaos into the mix, which is him!

NICK RAEBURN: 00:18:31

But, um, yeah, touch wood he's finally starting to, uh, to sleep now.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:18:36

And

VIKKI: 00:18:36

So you're coming out of it a bit.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:18:38

Yeah, the, the repercussions for, um, I think that's the biggest thing,

NICK RAEBURN: 00:18:42

um, that affects and, and people don't...

NICK RAEBURN: 00:18:44

they underestimate that.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:18:45

The biggest thing that affects, how your day goes is, is lack of sleep.

VIKKI: 00:18:49

Oh my God,

NICK RAEBURN: 00:18:50

it getting a, a decent night's sleep is, it works

NICK RAEBURN: 00:18:54

wonders for, for your, um, your cognitive bias, everything.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:18:58

You just feel happier.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:19:00

And that's the biggest thing I think that ends up kind of, um, ruining

NICK RAEBURN: 00:19:03

your day, um, is the lack of sleep.

VIKKI: 00:19:06

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:19:07

And if any new parents are listening to this podcast and going through the

VIKKI: 00:19:12

unrelenting hell of no sleep, we're here just to say it does get better.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:19:19

It does, it does get better!

VIKKI: 00:19:20

You will, I, I know what it's like when you have a newborn, or even

VIKKI: 00:19:24

in the first year of their life, you feel like you're never going to have

VIKKI: 00:19:28

evenings back or your life back.

VIKKI: 00:19:30

You know, where you sit down with your partner- if you're lucky enough

VIKKI: 00:19:33

to have a partner -watch the TV, or, you know, have a drink, whatever.

VIKKI: 00:19:38

It isn't forever, even though it may feel like it at the time.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:19:42

The the, best, uh, I, I'm not one for, for giving out

NICK RAEBURN: 00:19:44

advice, but, but get it where you can if you, if you need to have a

NICK RAEBURN: 00:19:47

snooze, you know, if the, if the kids are sleeping and you are home looking

NICK RAEBURN: 00:19:50

after them, then have a sleep as well.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:19:52

Um, you know, just, just get some shut eye so that your, your, uh,

NICK RAEBURN: 00:19:57

your, your, uh, compos (mentis) for, for the rest of the day.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:19:59

So, yeah, that has a big effect.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:20:01

Yes.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:20:02

And, for anybody who is struggling sleeping, cuz I had terrible insomnia

NICK RAEBURN: 00:20:06

when, when Stanley was little.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:20:08

Um, sometimes the pressure to sleep is also all consuming.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:20:13

So even just closing your eyes and resting can have a positive impact.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:20:19

And if you have the time and the inclination, there is a 'Loving

NICK RAEBURN: 00:20:23

Kindness', 15 minute meditation.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:20:26

So if you're really struggling to relax or to sleep, um, please listen

NICK RAEBURN: 00:20:32

to that special bonus episode and I hope it's helpful in making you feel

NICK RAEBURN: 00:20:36

a bit sort of soothed and calmer.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:20:38

That's, I I, interesting you say calm.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:20:40

Cause that's, um, that's one of my, um, I'm a big advocate of the CALM app.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:20:44

I use that every morning.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:20:45

But it's, it's weird, isn't it?

NICK RAEBURN: 00:20:46

How, how that, that shift in, um, like you were saying about Covid, how people

NICK RAEBURN: 00:20:51

are more focused on their EQ and, and a company like Calm can become as large

NICK RAEBURN: 00:20:55

as it has because people, there's a need for people to, to, um, be self-reflective

NICK RAEBURN: 00:21:00

and practice gratitude and meditate and just look inwards a bit more and, and

NICK RAEBURN: 00:21:04

not be, I think that's what happens is we're, we're so distracted on a day-to-day

NICK RAEBURN: 00:21:08

basis by all this, all this, these lights and noise and shiny things, and

NICK RAEBURN: 00:21:12

it's like, if you take all that stuff away, it forces you to focus on you.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:21:17

And that's, that's the important part.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:21:18

You focus on, you, you start to view the world slightly

NICK RAEBURN: 00:21:22

differently than you did before.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:21:24

So,

VIKKI: 00:21:25

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:21:25

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:21:26

And if you've never meditated before, there is no right and wrong.

VIKKI: 00:21:30

It's literally listen to it for 15 minutes.

VIKKI: 00:21:33

You don't even have to be lying down.

VIKKI: 00:21:35

And if you fall asleep, fine, great.

VIKKI: 00:21:39

You know, that's brilliant.

VIKKI: 00:21:40

If you fall asleep.

VIKKI: 00:21:42

Or if your mind wanders, that's completely normal.

VIKKI: 00:21:44

They're a bit like sort of passing clouds that you just let them drift through.

VIKKI: 00:21:48

Um, so yeah, please give it a try and let us know how you get on.

VIKKI: 00:21:53

But, um, back to you and taking your daughter home, how were

VIKKI: 00:21:58

the first few days for you?

NICK RAEBURN: 00:22:00

Um, yeah, like I said, I think, um, I think I cried

NICK RAEBURN: 00:22:03

for about three days straight!

NICK RAEBURN: 00:22:04

I remember the first night distinctly, because they had to keep my wife in,

NICK RAEBURN: 00:22:08

uh, just, just for, um, kind of routine checkup so I couldn't be with them,

NICK RAEBURN: 00:22:13

that first evening, I think I probably got about a three hour sleep because

NICK RAEBURN: 00:22:16

I was just, I was just awake in bed, just crying, literally just crying.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:22:20

It hurt me to be away from them both, yeah.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:22:24

It was, uh, just, just incredible.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:22:26

But then I started to notice kind of changes in my uh, behavior.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:22:30

Like I, I'd be very, I'd be very conscious of the way other adults

NICK RAEBURN: 00:22:34

were with her and were around her.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:22:36

And that's when I started to kind of get a bit of insight into, like

NICK RAEBURN: 00:22:40

I said, it had kind of opened the floodgates a little bit on my trauma.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:22:44

It's almost like someone whacked me over the head with a brick.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:22:46

I think if it had been more subtle and sort of creeped up, and I probably

NICK RAEBURN: 00:22:48

wouldn't have paid much attention to it.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:22:51

But because it was such a, a big thing, um, at the time, it

NICK RAEBURN: 00:22:54

forced me to go, hold on a minute.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:22:56

There's something you, you know, um, there's a great book the Body Keeps the

NICK RAEBURN: 00:23:00

Score where your, your brain, uh, tries to trick you or, or tries to, to close that

NICK RAEBURN: 00:23:06

stuff off, but your body, um, remembers.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:23:08

And it's a, a book that's well worth reading.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:23:11

But um, yeah, it forced me to kind of go down that path and start to address the

NICK RAEBURN: 00:23:15

reason why I was was feeling like this, you know, kind of getting angry with

NICK RAEBURN: 00:23:19

people for no reason if they, if they kind of touched her or went near her.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:23:23

And, it kind of forced me to be - especially with

NICK RAEBURN: 00:23:25

her- really overprotective.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:23:26

And I was like, well, I was like, does, is this normal for a father

NICK RAEBURN: 00:23:29

to, to kind of feel like this?

NICK RAEBURN: 00:23:31

And it just, yeah, it kind forced me to to look into it and address why

NICK RAEBURN: 00:23:35

I was feeling the way I was feeling.

VIKKI: 00:23:39

Were you with- obviously, without going into detail, and we

VIKKI: 00:23:42

can skip this if, if you don't feel comfortable- but had you been aware

VIKKI: 00:23:47

of the trauma in the past or had you managed to repress it so much that it

VIKKI: 00:23:54

wasn't part of who you saw yourself as?

NICK RAEBURN: 00:23:56

Yeah, I think I, I think I'd managed to repress it so

NICK RAEBURN: 00:23:59

much, um, that it, yeah it was like, it was not even a, not even so much

NICK RAEBURN: 00:24:06

as a memory, it was just, it was just some kind of dark part of me, I guess.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:24:11

I was sort of seen it as, as kind of my, my kind of, yeah.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:24:15

Sort of dark part of me, I guess, and, and things like,

NICK RAEBURN: 00:24:17

um, you know, kind of getting...

NICK RAEBURN: 00:24:19

and that, that's what I find fascinating about this as a, as a man as well.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:24:23

Like, um, you know, things like we we're told as men not to get angry, and I always

NICK RAEBURN: 00:24:27

saw that, um, I always saw getting angry as, as kind of a, an instance of me

NICK RAEBURN: 00:24:32

kind of losing control and I, and sort of going into that, you know, obviously

NICK RAEBURN: 00:24:36

not understanding where the anger was, was coming from, but, but as men, I

NICK RAEBURN: 00:24:40

think we should celebrate and it's, it's something as men that, that we don't.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:24:44

We can tap into that anger and we can use it as a positive form of energy.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:24:49

There's so much negative connotation attached to anger, I think as men,

NICK RAEBURN: 00:24:53

which kind of makes me angry, ironically!

NICK RAEBURN: 00:24:57

Um, um, the, uh, I think I was, I always, I always saw myself as, um, and I did, I

NICK RAEBURN: 00:25:02

did a post about it a little while ago.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:25:04

It was a picture of my son on my shoulders, um, uh, kind of holding

NICK RAEBURN: 00:25:10

his, uh, arms out and I took a picture of him sat on my shoulders

NICK RAEBURN: 00:25:15

and I was like, "This is how I feel.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:25:17

Um, cause it's, the little boy's kind of trapped inside me and, um, I'm trying

NICK RAEBURN: 00:25:23

to articulate this in the best way I can.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:25:25

And I always saw that, uh, you know, the trauma, the things that happened to

NICK RAEBURN: 00:25:28

me as kind of a dark part of me, but.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:25:31

But they're not, they're, they're all me.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:25:33

It's, it's, you know, our, our darkness and our lie is what makes us

NICK RAEBURN: 00:25:38

whole and what makes us who we are.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:25:39

So you have to accept it and appreciate it as well.

VIKKI: 00:25:46

And do you think your outburst of emotion when your children were

VIKKI: 00:25:52

born, do you think in a way you were grieving the loss of your childhood?

NICK RAEBURN: 00:25:56

Absolutely.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:25:57

Yeah.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:25:57

Yeah, a hundred percent.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:25:59

Um, it's, uh, . I am still now, I'm, uh, I'm just like a giant man-child!

NICK RAEBURN: 00:26:08

I'm, you know, I'm, I'm obsessed with them, with, uh, playing with the kids and,

NICK RAEBURN: 00:26:13

and kind of reliving my childhood through them, which, um, I guess is, there's,

NICK RAEBURN: 00:26:21

there's pluses and minuses, uh, to that.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:26:23

But yeah I definitely, to a point kind of trying to sort of relive

NICK RAEBURN: 00:26:27

those, those experiences, so...

NICK RAEBURN: 00:26:30

But I also realise that I'm a grown up and I have responsibility

NICK RAEBURN: 00:26:34

and all the rest of it!

NICK RAEBURN: 00:26:37

that

VIKKI: 00:26:37

But you know what the play is something so intrinsic to human

VIKKI: 00:26:42

beings and, you know, even children don't get as many opportunities to

VIKKI: 00:26:47

play and to be free as they used to.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:26:50

That's how they get to that, how they get to, uh, to kind

NICK RAEBURN: 00:26:53

of prod and poke at the world and experience where boundaries are and

NICK RAEBURN: 00:26:57

experience how relationships are formed.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:26:58

And, and, uh, all the rest of it.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:27:00

I'm listening to Jordan Peterson's '12 Rules for Life' at the moment.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:27:04

And it's, uh, it's, uh, an amazing book.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:27:07

I listen to it on, on the audiobook, and there's a, I think it's Chapter Seven,

NICK RAEBURN: 00:27:10

about seven minutes in on the audiobook.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:27:12

He talks about an experience where he had this, um, I think it was a

NICK RAEBURN: 00:27:16

two-year-old boy that his mother would neglect him and he wouldn't eat.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:27:20

She wouldn't feed him.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:27:21

And, um, he was talking about his, uh, his wife took the boy and then she kind

NICK RAEBURN: 00:27:25

of sat with him there for 10 minutes trying to get him to feed himself.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:27:30

And, uh, she congratulated him.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:27:32

And, every mouthful was like, "Well, you know, well done.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:27:34

You're doing really, really well!"

NICK RAEBURN: 00:27:36

And then he explained that whole day afterwards, he kind of just

NICK RAEBURN: 00:27:38

followed her around like a puppy, just sort of sat with her...

NICK RAEBURN: 00:27:43

it's a really kind of beautiful moment in the book.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:27:50

I think it's always good to see, uh, other men crying, I think!

NICK RAEBURN: 00:27:58

Like I said, I had over 110 D.M.s (direct messages) the day I posted that video.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:28:03

I had a guy, uh, reach out to me, a complete stranger, who'd been

NICK RAEBURN: 00:28:07

through exactly the same thing I had and, and, uh, just phoned me out

NICK RAEBURN: 00:28:09

the blue and we ended up having a conversation and I was crying on the

NICK RAEBURN: 00:28:12

phone and he was crying on the phone.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:28:14

That's the power of social media to, allow you to tell your story at scale so

NICK RAEBURN: 00:28:18

that, so that you can help other people.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:28:20

It's amazing that we live in a world where, we can share stories openly

NICK RAEBURN: 00:28:24

and, and, allow other people to kind of, you know, realise that we're

NICK RAEBURN: 00:28:27

not as different as we think we are.

VIKKI: 00:28:31

And it clearly resonated hugely.

VIKKI: 00:28:34

And the thing is the more we talk about these things, the better it

VIKKI: 00:28:38

is for everybody -because I mean, that's why I did this podcast, to

VIKKI: 00:28:41

normalise the conversation, to get rid of the stigma of perinatal illness.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:28:47

There's so much stigma attached to ... and that's part

NICK RAEBURN: 00:28:50

of the power the, um, abusers tap into, they know that there's so much

NICK RAEBURN: 00:28:54

stigma around trauma and they know most of the time that the people

NICK RAEBURN: 00:28:57

that they abuse won't talk about it.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:28:59

And that's where they have the power.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:29:01

So yeah, to to own that and take that power back is, is hugely important.

VIKKI: 00:29:07

And it goes back to you, you know, as you say, it's about owning your story

VIKKI: 00:29:12

and making it yours and validating the, the little boy that went through that.

VIKKI: 00:29:19

Absolutely.

VIKKI: 00:29:21

It's very interesting you talking about the male perspective because

VIKKI: 00:29:26

one thing that I've really learned on this journey doing this podcast

VIKKI: 00:29:30

is the amount of fathers affected by the birth of their children.

VIKKI: 00:29:35

You know, for one reason or another.

VIKKI: 00:29:37

I think the current rate is one in 10 fathers are affected by postnatal

VIKKI: 00:29:42

depression, and that is just the ones that come forward and actually talk about it.

VIKKI: 00:29:47

Do you think as a culture we put or impose an idea of what being

VIKKI: 00:29:55

a man is, what masculinity is.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:29:57

Yeah, absolutely and there needs to be spaces for men to

NICK RAEBURN: 00:30:04

experience and be around other men.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:30:07

And that's part of a charity that, that I've, um, come into contact with.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:30:10

When my daughter was born, I kind of ... it's weird, isn't it?

NICK RAEBURN: 00:30:15

How your, your brain does these things?

NICK RAEBURN: 00:30:17

But at that point, I wanted to join the charity and there was a part of me

NICK RAEBURN: 00:30:21

that wanted to do it, and I wasn't ready.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:30:24

And it wasn't until my son was born, seven years later that I was like,

NICK RAEBURN: 00:30:27

"Okay, I'm, I'm ready now to, to do this, and I'm gonna do it for her, I'm

NICK RAEBURN: 00:30:31

gonna do it for him and I'm gonna do it for me and, and my wife as well."

NICK RAEBURN: 00:30:35

And, um, and it's, yeah, it's, it's a beautiful charity.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:30:37

It's called 'A Band of Brothers'.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:30:38

And it's, uh, it's older men mentoring younger men that have, you know, some

NICK RAEBURN: 00:30:42

of these, some of the stories, the, these young men, the things that have

NICK RAEBURN: 00:30:47

happened to them are just astronomical.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:30:50

Just the most awful things.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:30:52

But having an older man, a mentor in place that, that can say, "You know, I've

NICK RAEBURN: 00:30:56

been through what you've been through and I'm still here and I'm better for it."

NICK RAEBURN: 00:31:01

Just sort of a guide - I mean a lot of these young men have kind of been through

NICK RAEBURN: 00:31:04

the prison system and just there's a...

NICK RAEBURN: 00:31:07

I think especially with men, because they don't talk about this stuff, they

NICK RAEBURN: 00:31:11

tend to, there's a, uh, I can't, and I can't remember the exact line, but

NICK RAEBURN: 00:31:14

there's something like, um- it's on the 'A Band of Brothers' website- a

NICK RAEBURN: 00:31:17

young man will burn down an entire village just to feel warmth."

NICK RAEBURN: 00:31:22

You know, so many young men just kind of lash out with

NICK RAEBURN: 00:31:24

anger - there's that word again.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:31:26

And they need guidance that they need to be shown that there's right

NICK RAEBURN: 00:31:29

ways of doing things and there's, there's wrong ways of doing things.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:31:32

And it's just a great community and a great space for men to just sit and like,

NICK RAEBURN: 00:31:38

you know, I sit in circles with these men and they're complete strangers and

NICK RAEBURN: 00:31:41

I feel comfortable and safe with them.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:31:45

And I, I trust them with my life.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:31:48

They're, they're amazing, amazing men.

VIKKI: 00:31:52

I'll make sure I put a link to their website in the show

VIKKI: 00:31:55

notes because I think they sound like an incredible organisation.

VIKKI: 00:31:59

And also just for any dads who are affected by this episode,

VIKKI: 00:32:03

there are other resources.

VIKKI: 00:32:05

So there's 'Music, Football, Fatherhood', run by Elliott Rae- again,

VIKKI: 00:32:09

there's a link in the show notes.

VIKKI: 00:32:11

And also 'Fathers Reaching Out' which is organised by Mark Williams,

VIKKI: 00:32:15

who's been an absolute pioneer with regards to talking out about

VIKKI: 00:32:20

the, the male parental experience.

VIKKI: 00:32:23

I think this mentorship is so important because as a society, in the old days,

VIKKI: 00:32:29

you, you had sort of families, like wider families growing up together

VIKKI: 00:32:33

and staying in the same neighborhood.

VIKKI: 00:32:36

So perhaps you would have a bit more of a, a father figure or an older male

VIKKI: 00:32:41

relative who you you know, if, if you were lucky, opened up with you and encouraged

VIKKI: 00:32:46

conversation and gave you that guidance.

VIKKI: 00:32:50

but today's society is so fragmented, we don't have those ready support networks.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:32:56

Well this is something that, um, and I said this because we

NICK RAEBURN: 00:32:59

use, um, we use kind of a system I guess.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:33:02

Um, we take kind of Jungian archetypes.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:33:04

So with A Band of Brothers, there's what we would call the Lover,

NICK RAEBURN: 00:33:07

the Warrior and the Magician.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:33:09

And they're governed by the Sovereign.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:33:11

So your Lover is your kind of um, emotional energy or,

NICK RAEBURN: 00:33:15

or sexual relationships.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:33:16

The Warrior is your anger and it's your doing energy.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:33:20

And the Magician is your, your brain basically your, your thoughts.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:33:24

And the Sovereign governs those three aspects of your, your personality.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:33:27

You know, some men can be too much Warrior, some men can be too much

NICK RAEBURN: 00:33:30

Magician- they overthink things.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:33:32

It's it's having those all in balance.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:33:33

The book that we use, which kind of goes through these concepts, is a, book called,

NICK RAEBURN: 00:33:39

um, 'Parcival and the Stone From Heaven'.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:33:41

It's a really old text.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:33:43

I think it's over a thousand years old.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:33:45

Um, and, and I, sometimes I look at that text and, and it, and it's been

NICK RAEBURN: 00:33:48

translated from an earlier story.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:33:50

I kind of look at that book and I think to myself, did we,

NICK RAEBURN: 00:33:54

did we always know this stuff?

NICK RAEBURN: 00:33:56

Was it always, you know, kind of in inherent in, um, in, in

NICK RAEBURN: 00:34:00

cultures and traditions over time?

NICK RAEBURN: 00:34:01

And we've, we've lost it.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:34:03

We've lost the concept of it.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:34:06

Because we don't, you know, we don't listen to our elders, we don't having,

NICK RAEBURN: 00:34:09

having elders in place and, and that's, you know, one of the aspects of, of

NICK RAEBURN: 00:34:13

what we do when we circle up is there is an elder there, there's an older

NICK RAEBURN: 00:34:16

man, which kind of helps lead the circle and imparts knowledge and wisdom.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:34:20

But we don't have that in society.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:34:22

You know, how often do we kind to see our, our grandparents or older

NICK RAEBURN: 00:34:25

people and just hang out with them and have conversations with them?

NICK RAEBURN: 00:34:28

We don't.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:34:28

It's just, it's uh, it's, you're right, it's, it's society has become more and

NICK RAEBURN: 00:34:33

more, um, fragmented as a, as a result.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:34:36

So it's a very, I guess because it's a, a male thing, there's a

NICK RAEBURN: 00:34:40

very sort of strong sense of, um, kind of tribalism to it.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:34:43

And it's kind of what appealed to me is that we're, there's something

NICK RAEBURN: 00:34:46

so inherent in our makeup and our DNA as a species to accept stories

NICK RAEBURN: 00:34:52

and help, you know, have stories in place to help us kind of understand

NICK RAEBURN: 00:34:56

how to, to, um, traverse a path.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:34:59

And that's kind of what we do with that story.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:35:00

And that's what massively appealed to me because that's a large

NICK RAEBURN: 00:35:03

component of, uh, who, who I am.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:35:05

It's weird how you are, how all these things kind of, when you kind of stop

NICK RAEBURN: 00:35:09

and step back and look at them, how all those things kind of click into place.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:35:13

But when you are inside it, you just can't see the wood for the trees, I guess.

VIKKI: 00:35:16

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:35:17

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:35:18

And so were they helpful to you in terms of your recovery?

NICK RAEBURN: 00:35:23

Hmm.

VIKKI: 00:35:24

Or had you recovered sufficiently?

NICK RAEBURN: 00:35:27

So, I did, um, I had what's called the E.M.D.R.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:35:30

(Eye Movement Desensitisation and Reprocessing) Therapy which

NICK RAEBURN: 00:35:31

kind of helps with the trauma in terms of kind of processing it.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:35:34

So I'd have that,

NICK RAEBURN: 00:35:35

um,

VIKKI: 00:35:36

Has that to do with eye movement?

NICK RAEBURN: 00:35:39

So, um, uh, yes, it simulates R.E.M.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:35:42

I guess, which is rapid eye movement, which is what happens when you sleep.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:35:45

So, um, that's what happens with the trauma, is the memory kind of gets, stuck

NICK RAEBURN: 00:35:49

and it doesn't get processed properly.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:35:51

So what they do is they get you to go back through the trauma

NICK RAEBURN: 00:35:54

again, and they get you to, I think originally it used to, be kind of

NICK RAEBURN: 00:35:57

following a finger, but now I think they get you to kind of tap on each

NICK RAEBURN: 00:36:00

shoulder just to process, you know, to get the left of my brain kind of working.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:36:04

And to actually process the trauma so it becomes just a

NICK RAEBURN: 00:36:07

memory rather than a stuck thing.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:36:09

Because when you experience anything kind of, um, really kind of stressful,

NICK RAEBURN: 00:36:13

it's like flicking a switch and it just brings that trauma back.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:36:17

Yeah, it kinda processes the, uh, the memory.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:36:20

Uh, yes.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:36:21

I'd had therapy and I'd had sessions before I joined them, but it's helped

NICK RAEBURN: 00:36:24

me massively in terms of, it's given, you know, it's, it's a large

NICK RAEBURN: 00:36:27

part of my 'why', my purpose really.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:36:29

I've teased the, the kind of, uh, uh, and, and that's what we do is, is,

NICK RAEBURN: 00:36:33

you know, is a classic heroes journey.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:36:35

It's like, you know, the hero kind of starts and they find out who

NICK RAEBURN: 00:36:38

they're, then they become the hero.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:36:40

And, and I, I feel, I, I feel like I've gone through that and now I can help

NICK RAEBURN: 00:36:47

other younger men to do the same thing.

VIKKI: 00:36:51

And I think it's a wonderful thing, you know, taking something that was so

VIKKI: 00:36:55

hugely negative, such a dark experience.

VIKKI: 00:36:59

but one that's caused profound change, you know, as part of your healing journey.

VIKKI: 00:37:03

And to be able to use that experience to guide other men,

VIKKI: 00:37:06

I think is an incredible thing.

VIKKI: 00:37:08

And I'm starting to go now!

VIKKI: 00:37:10

Do you ever find resistance in some of the men that you speak to,

VIKKI: 00:37:16

especially if they've been very angry?

NICK RAEBURN: 00:37:18

Oh, oh, yeah, absolutely.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:37:20

It's a large part of, of what we do, kind of helping you

NICK RAEBURN: 00:37:24

know, initiate, um, young men.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:37:26

We go through a lot through the, um, uh, police system, so, I

NICK RAEBURN: 00:37:30

men that have kind of come out of parole, they've come through the

NICK RAEBURN: 00:37:32

prison system and, and there's so much pushback from them initially,

NICK RAEBURN: 00:37:36

Because, you know, we, we've got a, a Quest weekend coming up, which is

NICK RAEBURN: 00:37:40

in April, which is where the younger men kind of start on this journey.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:37:44

And some of them, they turn up and, they just leave.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:37:47

Because it's like, the kind of unknown.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:37:48

It's like, "Why am I here?

NICK RAEBURN: 00:37:49

I don't wanna do this, this stuff!"

NICK RAEBURN: 00:37:50

But the change in them when they've been through this stuff

NICK RAEBURN: 00:37:53

is just, it's, almost like magic.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:37:57

, it's, uh, it's amazing to see.

VIKKI: 00:37:59

You know, a lot of what you're saying resonates so heavily

VIKKI: 00:38:01

with me about, what you were saying about the channeling of that anger.

VIKKI: 00:38:06

And actually, if you channel that anger directly, it can be incredible for like,

VIKKI: 00:38:11

drive and achieving things and ambition.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:38:14

Yeah, I remember one of my favorite authors, who passed

NICK RAEBURN: 00:38:18

away a few years ago, Terry Pratchett.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:38:20

He was a very angry writer, but when you look at his, I mean, you can kind

NICK RAEBURN: 00:38:24

of see it in a lot of his prose.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:38:25

But yeah, he used his anger in it in a really positive way.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:38:28

And it's natural sometimes for anyone to feel angry.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:38:32

But it's good to take that anger because there's, there's so much energy in it

NICK RAEBURN: 00:38:36

and getting you to channel it in the right way is, it's very powerful.

VIKKI: 00:38:41

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:38:41

And the, the other thing that really resonated with me was you talking

VIKKI: 00:38:44

about how distress for a lot of men- and, you know, it seems very common

VIKKI: 00:38:51

to the experience of children -that, you know, disruptive behavior is a

VIKKI: 00:38:56

way that they try and cope with those difficult emotions, and that actually,

VIKKI: 00:39:02

if you have a child who is being very naughty or going off the rails, it's

VIKKI: 00:39:06

often because they're a damaged child or that, they're going through a problem

VIKKI: 00:39:10

that, that they can't comprehend or...

NICK RAEBURN: 00:39:13

they're

VIKKI: 00:39:15

...have tools to express what's going on.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:39:16

They're trying to go "Pay attention to me.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:39:18

I need help here."

NICK RAEBURN: 00:39:19

And that's what really, again, angers me, and there's that word again about

NICK RAEBURN: 00:39:23

society, is that we see, people like this and we see young men like this as

NICK RAEBURN: 00:39:27

a hindrance or a thing that we need to kind of brush away and put to one side.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:39:30

And, and you look at anyone that's been, you know , has kind of substance abuse

NICK RAEBURN: 00:39:35

or there's usually at the core of that, a reason for why that person's like that.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:39:39

Um, and I think if we could as, uh, as a society more of us could look into

NICK RAEBURN: 00:39:43

that and kind of, and, and that's what 'A Band Of Brothers' are trying to do,

NICK RAEBURN: 00:39:45

treat the root cause of that problem.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:39:47

Not, not stick a bandaid on it and say, this is, you know,

NICK RAEBURN: 00:39:50

"On your way, off you go."

NICK RAEBURN: 00:39:52

Try and actually get to the core of, of the fundamental reason that

NICK RAEBURN: 00:39:55

person is like that and, and try and, um, re repair that, that damage.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:40:00

It's, uh, it's hugely important.

VIKKI: 00:40:02

Yeah, I, I remember Mark Williams saying , in one of the previous episodes

VIKKI: 00:40:07

about how he went through extreme alcohol abuse and how that, that is

VIKKI: 00:40:12

quite common in the fathers that he speaks to, that it's a way of trying

VIKKI: 00:40:17

to, again, repress those feelings.

VIKKI: 00:40:19

And also it's the way our culture is, you know, 'go down the pub

VIKKI: 00:40:23

and have a drink and forget it'.

VIKKI: 00:40:25

Um but the more I explore these things, the more I actually...

VIKKI: 00:40:30

um, I had a very, very difficult relationship with my father.

VIKKI: 00:40:33

He was, uh, an absolute bully.

VIKKI: 00:40:36

He was a tyrant.

VIKKI: 00:40:38

And very emotionally -like you weren't allowed, or, or you were

VIKKI: 00:40:42

belittled for showing any emotion.

VIKKI: 00:40:45

He was very cold in that way.

VIKKI: 00:40:49

And yeah, without a doubt, he screwed me up good and proper!

NICK RAEBURN: 00:40:54

Do you ever stop and think why he was like that?

VIKKI: 00:40:57

Well.

VIKKI: 00:40:57

It's, it's funny.

VIKKI: 00:40:58

So he passed away six years ago now.

VIKKI: 00:41:01

And both myself, my brother and my mom were all treated as complete failures

VIKKI: 00:41:08

and like an albatross around his neck.

VIKKI: 00:41:12

And I had such grief and anger when he passed away.

VIKKI: 00:41:18

And this guy terrified me for years, you know, right throughout adulthood.

VIKKI: 00:41:22

He terrified me.

VIKKI: 00:41:24

Uh, he was very emotionally abusive, but now I'm able to sort of look with

VIKKI: 00:41:28

empathy and I think he was very damaged.

VIKKI: 00:41:31

I think he was hugely damaged and that the way he was, was his way of coping.

VIKKI: 00:41:38

And that actually if he'd had help ...or, you know, I remember seeing a therapist

VIKKI: 00:41:41

when I was in my twenties and she said to me, "Look, I don't think you need

VIKKI: 00:41:47

the counselling, I think your dad does."

VIKKI: 00:41:49

So, I think, yeah, it's been a very difficult journey for me to

VIKKI: 00:41:56

look at him with compassion, but actually it's very healing to be

VIKKI: 00:42:01

able to do so, without a doubt.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:42:04

Yes.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:42:04

Yeah.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:42:05

So, um, uh, Jordan Peterson mentions that, a lot of uh, people that go

NICK RAEBURN: 00:42:09

through, trauma or, or abuse that, you know, it is kind of testament to

NICK RAEBURN: 00:42:13

the human condition and the goodness in people that we break those cycles.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:42:17

It's important.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:42:18

Um, yeah, I think you do come to a point where you kind of, do kind of

NICK RAEBURN: 00:42:22

reach a, a place of, um, empathy.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:42:25

but again, like I said, a lot of what we do with 'A Band

NICK RAEBURN: 00:42:28

of Brothers' is, is to it's.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:42:31

It's very, you know, we we're told oh, you know, " You shouldn't express anger."

NICK RAEBURN: 00:42:35

And it's wrong to express anger.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:42:36

We get the young men to express that anger, um, to, to get 'em, to focus

NICK RAEBURN: 00:42:41

that anger on the people that cause the things that happen to them.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:42:45

And that's an important part of the healing process for them.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:42:48

So it's okay to feel angry about this.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:42:51

It's normal and, uh, natural to, to feel angry about this stuff.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:42:55

So you can kind of, yeah.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:42:56

Just, just heal.

VIKKI: 00:42:57

And let it out.

VIKKI: 00:43:01

Your relationship must have changed greatly with your wife then,

VIKKI: 00:43:04

because from the man she married to the man who then became a father.

VIKKI: 00:43:11

It sounds like there's been a huge shift in you, and that must have been quite

VIKKI: 00:43:15

something for her to experience as well.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:43:17

I, have I I haven't,

NICK RAEBURN: 00:43:18

I haven't - it's interesting you've just mentioned that actually.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:43:21

Because I haven't thought about that in terms of, um, yeah, whether she saw

NICK RAEBURN: 00:43:25

that in me initially when we first, you know, we were sort of courting and stuff.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:43:29

I don't, I don't know.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:43:30

Uh, but yeah, you're right that the, the man that she kind of knew and

NICK RAEBURN: 00:43:34

fell in love with is very different to the man that she's married to now.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:43:37

But you know, from a personal standpoint, that man has grown and has a higher E.Q.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:43:43

needed and he's the man he needs to be at the moment in time for his kids.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:43:49

So...

VIKKI: 00:43:50

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:43:50

And a bloody good dad because of that.

VIKKI: 00:43:53

And I think it's so important that- especially in a world with, you know,

VIKKI: 00:43:57

such incredible uncertainty, as we're talking, there's horrendous

VIKKI: 00:44:01

things going on in Ukraine.

VIKKI: 00:44:03

Um, and you know, with the pandemic and everything - it is

VIKKI: 00:44:07

so important that leaders become much more emotionally intelligent.

VIKKI: 00:44:14

You know, we're not really going to understand the repercussions

VIKKI: 00:44:17

of these uncertain times that we live in for a long time.

VIKKI: 00:44:21

And I grew up feeling that being sensitive was a weakness and a failing, but

VIKKI: 00:44:29

actually it's my superpower now, you know?

VIKKI: 00:44:32

And that took a long time for me to come round to thinking like that!

NICK RAEBURN: 00:44:36

The thing that you think is actually your biggest

NICK RAEBURN: 00:44:38

flaw, your biggest weakness a lot of the time is your biggest strength.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:44:42

It's understanding and seeing that for what it is.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:44:45

And that that's, it's having the insight to recognise that, um, and realise it

NICK RAEBURN: 00:44:49

and getting, getting yourself to see that is, extremely difficult sometimes!

VIKKI: 00:44:53

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:44:54

And being an empathetic, compassionate person, you know, can

VIKKI: 00:44:57

be exhausting, don't get me wrong!

NICK RAEBURN: 00:45:00

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:45:01

It's bad enough watching a Disney movie.

VIKKI: 00:45:03

You know, my God, the emotions I go through with that!

VIKKI: 00:45:08

But I do think, yeah, you know, it's not a flaw to be human.

VIKKI: 00:45:12

This is what makes us who we are.

VIKKI: 00:45:14

And I, I love your analogy to stories and why stories are so important to you and

VIKKI: 00:45:20

I think the fact that you sort of sit down and play with your children is

VIKKI: 00:45:24

wonderful because, again, another Mark Williams, uh, statistic that he brings in

VIKKI: 00:45:29

that actually in the first 1001 days of children's formative years- I think that's

VIKKI: 00:45:35

the first three years- there is a huge impact that is made on them from fathers

VIKKI: 00:45:42

playing with their children, reading to their children, sitting, singing

VIKKI: 00:45:47

with the children, dancing with them.

VIKKI: 00:45:49

And if you have a father that is cut off in that way, you know, who may be going

VIKKI: 00:45:54

through difficulties of their own that there is a direct impact on your child.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:45:58

Well, it's, it's almost a form of emotional abuse as well.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:46:01

Sometimes you can't see it if, if you are, if there's so much trauma there

NICK RAEBURN: 00:46:06

you are distancing yourself from your family because of it, the cycle continues

NICK RAEBURN: 00:46:11

because you are, you are, it's a form of emotional abuse that the child isn't

NICK RAEBURN: 00:46:14

getting the affection, the love, and the attention that they need from you to, to

NICK RAEBURN: 00:46:18

shape who they need to be in the world.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:46:21

So if you, yeah, if you can't take care of yourself, then you can't take care of them

NICK RAEBURN: 00:46:25

and you're only going to repeat that cycle again, kind of knowingly or unknowingly.

VIKKI: 00:46:30

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:46:30

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:46:31

And so the first part of getting help is, you know, and it's, it's really hard

VIKKI: 00:46:36

to come forward and say "I need help.

VIKKI: 00:46:40

I need support.

VIKKI: 00:46:41

I'm not okay."

VIKKI: 00:46:42

But the sooner you do that, the sooner you will get help, you will

VIKKI: 00:46:48

recover -because you WILL recover.

VIKKI: 00:46:51

You know, everybody does get through this and depression and

VIKKI: 00:46:55

anxiety are, are horrible illnesses, but you can recover from them.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:47:01

It's that first step on that path to becoming, um, yeah, becoming a

NICK RAEBURN: 00:47:04

hero, is to take that first initial step.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:47:09

Once you do that, the road's long, but, but the steps get easier, so

VIKKI: 00:47:12

Yeah, Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:47:13

And there's a lot of ups and downs, you know, there's no quick fix.

VIKKI: 00:47:17

It isn't like a linear curve that just goes upwards all the way.

VIKKI: 00:47:20

There's, you know, two steps forward, one step back, that old cliche.

VIKKI: 00:47:25

But the recovery doesn't just help you.

VIKKI: 00:47:28

It helps everybody.

VIKKI: 00:47:30

You have a, yeah, it helps the whole family.

VIKKI: 00:47:33

And that's not to make you feel guilty for the impact you may or may not

VIKKI: 00:47:38

be having on your child now, because if your child is fed and sheltered,

VIKKI: 00:47:44

that is incredible, you know?

VIKKI: 00:47:46

And if you don't feel a bond right now with your child,

VIKKI: 00:47:49

that is okay, that happens.

VIKKI: 00:47:51

But you can get that bond, you know, you just need some support.

VIKKI: 00:47:57

And it will happen over time.

VIKKI: 00:47:58

So don't feel guilty because you didn't ask for this, you know, you did not ask

VIKKI: 00:48:04

for this illness, and there is light at the end of the tunnel, and Nick

VIKKI: 00:48:07

and, I are here to sort of prove that.

VIKKI: 00:48:10

So Nick, what, what are your hopes for your son, especially going forward

VIKKI: 00:48:17

in terms of, you know, what it means to be a man in the modern world?

VIKKI: 00:48:22

Sorry, that's a really bit question isn't it?!

NICK RAEBURN: 00:48:25

It is - staggeringly huge!

NICK RAEBURN: 00:48:28

Um, I, I think just, uh, giving him, that emotional resilience, you know,

NICK RAEBURN: 00:48:33

showing, that men can cry, that they can feel emotions, that they can be,

NICK RAEBURN: 00:48:38

um, loving having all those, those parts of your psyche in balance.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:48:43

Um, I'm going through my, my mentoring cycle now with 'A Band

NICK RAEBURN: 00:48:46

of Brothers', so I'll be taking on a mentee after, um, April.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:48:49

So, you know, going through those things is going to help me become a better

NICK RAEBURN: 00:48:54

father and hopefully help me be able to effectively mentor my son as well.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:48:59

So, I think like most parents, I want him to be happy and healthy and

NICK RAEBURN: 00:49:03

resilient and just know his mind, which he already does at three years old!

NICK RAEBURN: 00:49:07

I think he's almost got, got me and me and my wife wrapped around his little fingers.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:49:11

Like, like the, the conversations we have with him!

NICK RAEBURN: 00:49:15

Because he's, he's just starting to, to kind of talk now, like his vocabulary's

NICK RAEBURN: 00:49:19

getting bigger, but the other day it's like, I'm gonna make him a juice.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:49:23

And it's like "No, no, I want this particular flavour juice

NICK RAEBURN: 00:49:26

in this particular cup!"

NICK RAEBURN: 00:49:27

It's like but yeah, he already knows his own mind.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:49:33

Definitely, at nearly three years old!

NICK RAEBURN: 00:49:36

So

VIKKI: 00:49:36

They, they do.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:49:38

Uh, yeah, like most parents just, just, they're resilient, um,

NICK RAEBURN: 00:49:41

and that they're happy and that they're healthy and they understand who they are.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:49:45

That's, that's something what most parents want, for their kids.

VIKKI: 00:49:47

Yeah, that's all we can hope for with our children.

VIKKI: 00:49:50

You know, that we can't take away life's challenges, but we can help them meet

VIKKI: 00:49:55

those challenges with resilience and with, an aptitude to know where to,

VIKKI: 00:50:01

to go for help and support and to be able to talk about how they're feeling.

VIKKI: 00:50:05

And for anybody that might be listening to this, who have very

VIKKI: 00:50:10

sadly experienced the trauma of abuse themselves, but may have never talked

VIKKI: 00:50:15

about that experience, is there any advice that you could offer them?

NICK RAEBURN: 00:50:22

I guess probably the biggest, one for me is, um make sure

NICK RAEBURN: 00:50:27

that when you do kind of finally talk to someone, speak to someone that you

NICK RAEBURN: 00:50:32

have a strong relationship with, that can be kind of confidential about this

NICK RAEBURN: 00:50:36

stuff like a partner for example.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:50:39

And that will kind of help and support you because it's not, you know,

NICK RAEBURN: 00:50:42

although you are doing most of the work, you don't do this journey alone.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:50:45

Other people are gonna gonna help you on the journey.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:50:47

So that first initial step make sure that you choose the right person to kind of

NICK RAEBURN: 00:50:51

express that you've kind been through this thing or that you are experiencing

NICK RAEBURN: 00:50:55

this difficulty in the first instance.

VIKKI: 00:50:57

And, and somebody who you know will not be judgemental...

NICK RAEBURN: 00:51:01

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:51:01

...about that information because I think when you're opening up about any

VIKKI: 00:51:06

mental illness- but I can imagine it's much more pronounced when you've been

VIKKI: 00:51:10

through something so traumatic as, as you have that you feel very vulnerable

VIKKI: 00:51:15

and you worry about how you are going to be perceived once that 'secret' is out.

VIKKI: 00:51:21

But actually I've found in speaking about my postnatal depression,

VIKKI: 00:51:26

that actually people are much more understanding and often say "Me too,

VIKKI: 00:51:31

but I was too afraid to talk about it."

NICK RAEBURN: 00:51:33

You afraid to say it, yeah, yeah.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:51:36

It does, It does require a certain amount of bravery, I think to, to kind of just,

NICK RAEBURN: 00:51:40

just admit it to yourself and to just say to the world, this is, you know...

NICK RAEBURN: 00:51:43

we're so conditioned in Western society to kind of accept social norms and it's

NICK RAEBURN: 00:51:47

like "Ooh we don't talk about this."

NICK RAEBURN: 00:51:49

And the shift that I've seen probably over the last five years and the conversation

NICK RAEBURN: 00:51:54

around the stigma of mental health.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:51:55

Like I, when I was younger, I came out of university and I worked as a a mental

NICK RAEBURN: 00:51:59

health nursing assistant for a few years.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:52:02

So that, you know, again, there may have been a part of my

NICK RAEBURN: 00:52:05

subconscious that thought, "Well, I need, I need to do this."

NICK RAEBURN: 00:52:08

Like, you can't always trace the dots looking forward, but if you stop and

NICK RAEBURN: 00:52:11

look back at it, so probably a part of me was like, "There's a reason I did that."

NICK RAEBURN: 00:52:15

Just like there's a reason why I've joined, 'A Band of Brothers' at

NICK RAEBURN: 00:52:18

this particular point in my life.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:52:20

So a part of my subconscious was obviously going, you know, you need to, you need

NICK RAEBURN: 00:52:23

to be around people that, that are like you and try and look after people

NICK RAEBURN: 00:52:27

that are like you because there's, there's, there's a lot of us out there!

VIKKI: 00:52:31

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:52:32

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:52:33

And you, you've been incredibly brave and, uh, so honest and it's just been a joy to,

VIKKI: 00:52:40

to speak to you today.

VIKKI: 00:52:42

You know, very heavy subject matter.

VIKKI: 00:52:45

But you're still, you know, one inspiring dad and, uh, I could imagine that, you

VIKKI: 00:52:51

know, you are the world to your family.

VIKKI: 00:52:53

So thank you for sharing your story with us and, and for spending

VIKKI: 00:52:57

the time with us this morning.

NICK RAEBURN: 00:52:59

I've got plenty of toilet roll now!

VIKKI: 00:53:04

I know!

VIKKI: 00:53:05

It's It's like I should have a competition for regular listeners as to, you

VIKKI: 00:53:10

know, guess, guess how many minutes?

VIKKI: 00:53:13

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:53:15

many rolls did you get through!

VIKKI: 00:53:15

How many minutes before I started blubbing!

NICK RAEBURN: 00:53:18

Yeah.

VIKKI: 00:53:20

If you've enjoyed this episode of Blue MumDays, please like and subscribe.

VIKKI: 00:53:25

It really does make the difference in helping other people find it,

VIKKI: 00:53:30

and that means helping more parents.