In this episode, I sit down with author, publisher, and co-founder of Skinny Brown Dog Media, Eric Reid, for an honest and deeply personal conversation about what happens when faithful people quietly drift from abiding in Jesus to performing for Him. Eric shares from his own story of confusing closeness to God with usefulness to God, and how Jesus has been reforming him around something better: presence over performance, hiddenness over recognition, and faithfulness over followers. We dig into John 15:5, where Jesus reminds us that apart from Him we can do nothing, and we sit with the invitation of Matthew 11:28 to come to Him when we are weary and burdened.

If you have ever loved Jesus and still felt exhausted by your own faith, this conversation is for you. Eric brings the kind of honest, Scripture-rooted reflection that will help you recognize the drift, return to the vine, and take one step back toward simply abiding. I believe this episode will reach you right where you are. Come listen in.

Interesting Links:

• Skinny Brown Dog Media | Instagram
• Eric G Reid | LinkedIn
• Eric G Reid | Instagram
• Eric G Reid | Facebook
• Leadership Was Never My Calling | Website

References to Bible Verses:

John 15:5; Psalm 46:10; Matthew 11:28–30; Romans 10:17

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Jason McConnell: Thank you for listening, and welcome to the podcast. I am your host, Jason McConnell. There is quite a crisis happening in the lives of some of the most sincere, hardworking, Jesus centered people you might ever meet. no, it doesn't look like rebellion and it doesn't look like walking away from God. From the outside, it actually looks like faithfulness, but on the inside something is slowly shifting. to God has been replaced by usefulness to God. is quietly given away to achieving. And what began as. A calling has started to feel more like a performance. Guest knows that territory way too well from the inside and out. Eric G. Reed is an author, publisher, and co-founder of Skinny Brown Dog Media. has spent over a decade helping purpose-driven authors share their stories with the world, but the book he's been writing, leadership was never, my calling is the most personal one yet. And no, it's not a leadership manual. It's a confession from someone who is Chase position, discovered it couldn't hold what he was carrying, and is letting Jesus reform him around something better abiding instead of striving hiddenness instead of recognition, faithfulness of followers, I have your attention? If so, be sure to check out lwnc.net for more information and I'll be sure to put that link in the show notes as well as Eric's social media and whatever in information I find about him. So be sure to check that out. Are you ready to meet today's guest?

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Jason McConnell: Welcome Eric. And thank you for joining me on My Minister Mission.

Eric G Reid: Hey, thank you. I love the summary, by the way. Well done. I was like,

Jason McConnell: thank you

Eric G Reid: who's he talking about? Then you got to my name and I was like, oh, oh, oh. That's me.

Jason McConnell: It's me. Right on. love it.

Eric G Reid: Hmm.

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Jason McConnell: Uh, I always like to get the, give the listeners an opportunity to get, you know, you. Um, and I like to start with a favorite Bible verse. You actually gave me three, but I'm gonna go ahead and jump into John 15, five. Um, I love that verse. Uh, it's, I am the vine. You are the branches.

If you remain in me and I in you, you'll bear much fruit. Apart from me, you can do nothing. How is this meaningful to your faith journey?

Eric G Reid: It, it's one of those verses that you can read through and be like, oh, we're talking about agriculture, or we're talking about, you know, great tomato harvests in the, the fall. And over time as I Reddit, I'm like, wait a minute. Fruits only occurs in, in, in, in by, by being in proximity, by being connected. And I had.

Fallen into this leadership development leadership thing where I said, well, I'm gonna plant my own vineyard. I'm gonna create my own vines. They're gonna go out and transform and impact and do all these amazing things. And I kept feeling this. It's like, why is this not bearing fruit? Why is some, why does it feel like I have a whole lot of audience, but nothing is like, nothing is really bearing.

Fruit and the fruit that it might be bearing just doesn't have that sweet, you know, keeping it in the wine analogy, that sweetness, that flavor, that center of the earth. And so when I think of that verse, it's a a lot about like, wait a minute, you were trying to outperform God with your own

Jason McConnell: Right.

Eric G Reid: your own vine, and.

You would've been so much more successful, Eric, had you just abide, like abide in me, like just clinging to me. Hang to me, it's not a symbol of weakness. It's not a symbol of codependency. It's a statement of if you want this, then this is where it starts. And so I often will. Picture, I'm a kind of a visual thinker, and so I'll picture it's like, okay, are you planting or grafting into into God

Jason McConnell: question.

Eric G Reid: into other people that you know?

Are you finding the God in other people and grafting into that or grafting into God and his word? Or are you out trying to plant a whole new thing? And so that's kind of why I like it, because again, being a visual person, I can see it. It makes perfect sense on the physical level. So why wouldn't it make sense on the spiritual level?

Jason McConnell: Yeah, absolutely. I, like that. That's a really good answer.

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Jason McConnell: And in case somebody is thinking, what is this Christianese that's being used? Abiding is basically being obedient, if I'm not mistaken. I mean, if that's the simplest way to, to

Eric G Reid: I, you know,

Jason McConnell: it.

Eric G Reid: and we could do theology and that, and translations. To me, when I look at that visual abiding is grafting into, it's like bearing your roots inside something else. It's not that that discipline at a distance, it's not that obedience at a distance. It's gr in, in agriculture, it's grafting into it's becoming one with and drawing all your nutrition, all your resources from that, that.

Join point because you don't have access to the roots. You don't have access to the water, to the nutrients and all. You have to depend on that main vine. And so when I see it and I think about it, it's a conscious, repetitive action of leaning in and drawing from, instead of waiting to be gifted or told.

It to again, it just feels different when I change the visual for the, the word.

Jason McConnell: I like that. Absolutely. So.

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Jason McConnell: Let's start kinda simple getting to know you. What does a regular morning look like for you? Um,

Eric G Reid: I'll let you know when I have one.

Jason McConnell: right,

Eric G Reid: Um, I have

Jason McConnell: fair.

Eric G Reid: two kids. Um, they are 17 and 15, soon to be 16. And their bus, they ride separate buses. 'cause my daughter's on the um, special services bus or special ed bus or whatever you call it these days. But they get up between five and five 15. So they can be out the door between 5 45 and 6:00 AM So that whole, yeah, they're home at two o'clock, which is kind of crazy 'cause it's like I'm just getting momentum for my workday and they're busting through the door.

So that first hour of every day is really just about getting them out the door, getting that morning routine started for 'em. And I am, since pretty much day one, I would be at the bus stop with them. So the bus pulled up and only this year I've been asked to stay in the house like my 17-year-old son.

He's like, dad, you don't need to come and stand with me. And I'm like, but I want to, so we kinda do it, you know, in the foyer before he goes out the door. 'cause you know, I save embarrassing him for more important moments. So

Jason McConnell: Yeah.

Eric G Reid: it is that making sure that their mourning starts with somebody in it that cares and values and you know that it gives them that like you matter moment.

Um, so, and in the middle of that is a husky and a German shepherd near Chihuahua, running around looking for a matter of moment. So once they clear out and the house returns to stillness, that's when I returned to stillness. It's like, okay. Got 'em out the door, said, you know, we'll keep them safeguard, bring him home and.

My first instinct was always to, okay, go get your devotional, get your Bible study. You gotta get, and I was like, wait a minute. That sounds like a daily work. Like I understand discipline and consistency, but today I don't feel like it. And I struggled with that too. Like, well, it's not a matter of feeling, it's part of like your mental, your physical, your spiritual health.

There's things you'd, and I was like that. Do you just have a minute for us to just sit here like. It's a beautiful morning. I'm sitting on the porch. I'm just enjoying watching the morning wake up. Do I really have to run inside and try and finish the two page devotional right now? And so I've let go of those 5:00 AM warrior kind of attack spirits.

And I said, you know, just unfold it for me. God, just unfold it for me and. Before I hit my work desk, there is always a, you know, um, it's kind of my back in. People sometimes come up with their word of the day or Word of the Year, and I was struggling. I was not getting a word, and I was telling God it was way behind schedule.

It's mid-January, I have to order the bracelet, the poster and start writing it down three times a day. That's what the book says. And it wasn't until maybe February, it was like, look, Eric just shut up. He speaks in shut up terms. Just put your, your hand on your plow in your field and I'll take care of the rest.

And I was like,

Jason McConnell: Yeah.

Eric G Reid: I don't get that. Like it's supposed to be a word now you've given me. And, but it is that. Eric, all I'm asking you to do is take what I've given you today, your talents, your gifts, or the assignment in front of you. Put the hard work in. Stay focused on where you're at, not what your competition is doing, or the guy that you want to try and beat on.

Just stand that. Do it for that and the rest. Dude, I've got it covered.

Jason McConnell: Yeah,

Eric G Reid: So that's kind of my morning. Some days it has scripture, some days it doesn't. Some days it has just sitting to the same song on an endless loop, letting it just sort of teach and speak to me. Some days it's sitting in the backyard trying not to have coffee spilled on me as the dogs jump up on my lap.

Jason McConnell: yeah. Yeah.

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Jason McConnell: It's funny you mentioned the, the going out at the bus stop. So my daughter's never ridden a bus, um, for uh, elementary, middle school. She was at a charter school. They didn't have a bus. Um, high school. She's at a high school that's not really area. Um, it was a better option anyways. when she transitioned from elementary to middle school, that's when life changed. That's when.

Eric G Reid: Oh, it does.

Jason McConnell: kind of, you know, the, the, how do I look in the eyes of my peers changed and, and you know, first, second, grade, it was always, you know, we'd get outta the car. Big hug. Love you. Bye. Well middle school, first day of middle school, no more hugs, right?

We're done. She's like, dad, I'll just, I love you. I gotta go. Okay. I, I'm, I'm trying to, trying to reconcile it, but I'm, I'm okay. this goes on. I get used to it. And then one day, 'cause we always have, we have a dog too. Dogs always, always takes a ride to the school with us. One day she turns around and reaches in like with one hand, and I'm like, it's happening. We're getting a hug. I'm getting a hug. It's happening. go to reach for a hug and she reaches past me and pets the dog. And she looks at me and goes, what are you doing? And I'm like, I thought you were gonna hug me. So

Eric G Reid: So again, a 17-year-old boy, I used to get a hug. Pretty much every morning. I still get an I love you, but I, I got a hug pretty much every morning, and he is not a morning person like. If the stove light is on, it's irritating. But I think that's all 17-year-old boys in general. So now I'm like, dude, what do I get today?

A side hug. Like, I just, I need, I need to connect with you before you go out the door. So we kinda like shoulder mom or side hug. Um, but I will still walk up to him and I'm like, I need this. And he's like, what? And I'm like, you know, and he's like, oh my God. Oh, dad, he does all that noise making and he stands up and I get a hug.

I, I take a hug from him and I say, thank you. I needed that because it's not always for him, it's for me. And I'm allowed to say I need it because it also gives him permission to come to me and say, I need a hug. I need one-on-one time. I need, when he was little, he used to say, I need little, he said, you little me.

I was like, and it meant just bring him back in the baby position as close into this side. So I really, when I say force, I don't force my hug. I would never do that, but I tell him, I need this, I need this. Just give it to me. And he, he eases into it. So feel free to tell your daughter, I just need it today.

I've got it. I just need it. Because she'll know how to ask for it when it's her turn.

Jason McConnell: I like that. That's fair. Yeah. The, the, the hugs aren't a problem. I mean, she's, you know, it's just right there in front of the school. It's,

Eric G Reid: Oh,

Jason McConnell: a thing

Eric G Reid: I, when I went in Paris, my son, I run down on the lacrosse field like, I love you, and I give mug and he's like, oh my God. The funny thing is there is a kid somewhere in his proximity that says, I would die for that moment,

Jason McConnell: Yeah,

Eric G Reid: and me giving it to my son only lets him know. That there are people that feel and do that, and hopefully they seek those people out.

And if they seek me out and say, I want one of those hugs, they can have one.

Jason McConnell: Absolutely love it.

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Jason McConnell: All right, so, uh, quick, one.

more quick question and then I'll, we'll jump into, uh, little deeper conversation. if you could go back and have just like a 10 minute conversation with the version of you. Who first started all the chasing, would you say to him?

Eric G Reid: Whew.

You're enough. You're loved. You already own that. The problem you're having right now, Eric, is you don't think it's enough and you don't believe it deep enough that you think you have to add on top of it. And my son is, I should be a preacher 'cause I've got material with him all day long. My son, I will turn and say I love you.

And he says, okay. And that used to annoy me to no end. I would just like, what is this? And what I slowly realized was he is so confident and so secure in hearing that and receiving it, that he doesn't feel this need to tennis racket it back and say, love you too. Or like, he just receives it and he's like, okay.

Like okay. Thanks for the re, thanks for the tap on the shoulder reminder. I wish old Eric and still some days current Eric. I could receive that kind of love or tension or you're enough, and just go, okay, thanks. Like I can sit in that and not feel as if I have to perform to get it the next time.

Jason McConnell: Yeah, I like that.

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Jason McConnell: So you described your faith journey, I believe, as a long, long obedience with some detours. Um. Uh, curiosity, of course. Could you take us into one of those detours? I mean, what was that season like from, from the inside perspective?

Eric G Reid: I don't know if the, like all detours, you take it thinking it's a shortcut and you end up like 900 miles away at an empty tank and you try and figure out, oh, please tell me there's a gas station. For me it was going back to that just you is not enough. You need to do this, make this, have this, show, this, create this like you need to, like really do.

I grew up in the Midwest. My father is a German Lutheran mechanical engineer. He had charts and graphs for pretty much everything. And so as a kid we kind of, without criticizing him but his love language. Was check boxes on the spreadsheet. Like, oh, yay, you did that check. Oh, yay, you did that check. And so I grew up trying to fill out as many check boxes as I could, because that told me I was valuable, that I was loved, that I was doing the manly right thing.

And so even today, sometimes it'll slip in when a client says, could you just mail me this? I mail three extra things 'cause I wanna make sure if there's extra check boxes, I've got 'em covered. And so in doing that, I became focused more on the performance and not the presence of being with the person and being with God.

I was

Jason McConnell: sense.

Eric G Reid: the number one, everything but I was so far away from the vine that. It was just like, it was like burning in the sun. I mean, I was just like, why is this not going? Why am I always fighting? Why am I always struggling? Why do I feel exhausted doing all this God work? And you basically said, because you're really not doing what I asked you to.

Like you're swimming upstream trying to get to the headwater. Wouldn't have, you just stayed in flow and stayed in listening, like stayed faithful and dutiful. You would go so much further and I would take you where you need to be. And so in that constant exhaustion and reinventing and trying to re become more faithful, like what does more faithful look like?

Like, you know, like, well, I'll just do two devotionals a day, or, you know, I'll do it in, uh, king James and living like.

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Eric G Reid: And it was just like you're still trying to perform instead of being present, which is an easy thing to do because presence requires a bit of humility, a bit of hum, sitting quietly and letting go, and surrendering.

And nobody wants to surrender. We say we surrender, but we don't. We, we just, we do fake surrender. Like, oh God,

Jason McConnell: Yeah.

Eric G Reid: this to you because I've done everything and I've run outta resources, so I'm gonna terror. No, no, no, no, no. That's not surrendering, that's forfeiting, that's abdicating. That's tossing off responsibility.

If, and again, as a visual person, if an army came into my house and I committed to surrendering, they would own my family. And could sell my family. They could do whatever they wanted with each of my children. They would own everything within my sight and beyond. They wouldn't just own the gun that I have been using to fight against them.

And so that full surrender man, I'm not even sure I've done it yet, but I'm aware of what it costs.

Jason McConnell: I've had similar thoughts. It's like, I don't know if I'm, you know, I about it on this podcast, But, I don't even know if I've made it that far. But maybe some days we'll

Eric G Reid: But, and again, the language for me, the language is always important 'cause I'm a writer and it's what I do. It's like he was using terms to speak to a group of individuals who, from an education level may have been our equivalent of elementary school. They may have been versed in the law. So he had to use stories, he had to use common language, he had to use things they could visualize because that's how stories stay.

And so when he said surrender, he meant you have been an invaded people for all of history. And you know what surrender feels like. You know what? Surrender the morning after surrender looks like. I need you to see that in your life as it relates to me and our relationship and all of that. It wasn't just toss me the bad stuff and I've got you covered.

Jason McConnell: Yeah, reminds me of um, uh, Psalm 46 10. Be still and know that I am God. It's so hard to do.

Eric G Reid: And that means still in spirit, still in thought, still like. It, you can't be still sitting in a chair but planning what he's gonna do.

Jason McConnell: Right.

Eric G Reid: Um, couple years ago we had cancer. My spouse was going through cancer treatment, and everybody's like, I'm praying that they, you know, there's a healing. And I'm like, and I struggled with that because I would say, I don't know if I want you praying for us. If you already have the objective in hand, if you've already determined the course that God has to take, I'm not sure.

Like I was struggling. 'cause another part of me is like, yeah, I'm praying for healing too. 'cause I am not doing this alone.

Jason McConnell: Yeah. Right,

Eric G Reid: A disaster in five minutes. But it's like saying, you know, God, I'm willing to get on the highway with you as long as we get off at exit 99, not 1 0 1.

Jason McConnell: right.

Eric G Reid: And so it really became for me and those who were willing to ask what I needed, um, I just need for you to pray for restoration.

Restoration of faith, restoration of trust, restoration of like, all of those things that get lost in a difficult season. Just restore it and recenter it in our family because if. He, there's not a healing. We're gonna need a new level of hope. We're gonna need a new level of family. Community connections that might have gotten broken, might be broken.

And so it became it again, it was that I have to, if this is, if this is who I am, I have to surrender the hope that there will be a healing. Now I can say, you know, my heart, God, and you know what I need and what I want, and the season I, I, I am in. But to pray for healing is not surrendering at all. It's surrendering at all as long as it ends up at this point.

Jason McConnell: Yeah, it's a new, unique way to put it.

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Jason McConnell: And I, I, I mean, I kinda, I kind of feel that segues into, um, another topic I'd written down is you've used the phrase, Jesus reforming me around ordinary, and I mean. What does that actually look like? You know, what does ordinary obedience look like for, um, and and maybe it's individualized, maybe it's not.

Maybe there's a general ordinariness, but, know, trying to wrap my mind around what does that actually mean?

Eric G Reid: You know, and anybody that has parents probably knows what it feels like to be ordinary in a moment that you're trying to feel special or unique or, you know, um, in the book I talk about. I hosted an event, it was called Live to Lead. I'm a part of the John Maxwell organization, so it was a group of like-minded speakers and I had managed to get the university to basically donate the auditorium and donate the equip.

Like ev I was like, we are flying. God is just blessing. Like we are just moving through. Nothing has slowing us down. And uh, the day of the event, I'm on stage and it was really kind of early in my whole. Thing, but I give the welcome in the opening and I introduce the first speaker. I'm like, ah. And I'm running off stage just like, oh my God, I did it.

You know, I'm so proud of myself and I get in the lobby and a really good friend of mine, a dear, dear friend, she, she is a mo, couldn't be a better person in my life at the time. I'm like, I can't believe it. I did it. I think I was gonna pee my pants. I so thought I was, and I'm like, you know, acting like a 16-year-old.

Um, and all of a sudden I see this sound guy chucking across the, the, the lobby waving his hands and I thought he was like applauding me silently not to interrupt. Apparently my mic is still on.

Everybody in the auditorium heard this. I thought I was gonna pee,

Jason McConnell: Oops.

Eric G Reid: and as funny as it is now. I still had a, a whole day of going back up on stage and introducing speakers, doing so, like q and a. Like I had six hours left and at the last impression they had of me before my next appearance was I thought it was gonna be, um, a moment like that realize, sort of helps you realize like, you know what we used to say when I worked for campaigns?

Don't buy your own press. Because you wrote it,

Jason McConnell: Raid.

Eric G Reid: that you can get caught up in your own social media, feed of great meals and happy moments that you become so far away from yourself and the things that matter that sometimes you gotta have a, I almost peed moment for God to go up. I can take you out anytime I want.

I can bring you back to humble anytime you want. And so slowly in those moments, I started being like, you know what? Ordinary, what does it look like to be present without a mic, Mike? To be present without an agenda to be present? Because I just happened to be in the room 10 minutes early and set up the chairs and then just.

Take one instead of making sure everybody knew who the chair set up guy was that day. And first it was so much it, the, the, the, the pressure to perform was so much less. I was like, I set up the chairs. Right.

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Eric G Reid: Good job, Eric. But it also was like, you know what? That felt good just to do it and not have to worry about a checkbox.

And so. Slowly, it was those ordinary things that made me feel good about myself, about the PE serving people and that worrying about how it was received. And so the reform is really like, and I use again in the. He had this whole table of people, he was like in his moment on stage when that last supper was occurring.

He could have done any, he could have levitated the table and switched the seating order if he had wanted, and it would've been expected. 'cause I mean, that's Jesus. He's, everything that he gets up, walks around the table, takes off his to grabs a towel in a basin and walks over and washes somebody's feet.

It's like. This is your Oscar moment. This is like standing in front of the academy, and that was what you chose to do, Eric. You've got it all wrong.

Jason McConnell: Yeah.

Eric G Reid: And that is sort of the whole awareness that I had to figure out again, because I had started wanting to do that, but then I became consumed in all this other stuff.

Jason McConnell: Yeah. I mean, Jesus not only washed their feet, so that was, you put some context to that. It, it has such, so much more significance. Um. know, a, a, a that was probably the lowest of low jobs. Uh, my understanding is that they wouldn't even let, you know, a, a Jewish servant wouldn't do that. It would be a Gentile servant

Eric G Reid: And again, in part because if you're at that table and it's Shabbat or Sabbath dinner. There's days of preparation that go in because you're not allowed to cook on that meal. Like there's all this ritual of creating a holy, clean, sacred place, separate dishes. So in in essence, it wasn't just another dinner, it was a dinner that was intended to be of significance, not because it was his last supper.

He was the only one that knew that at the table. Yeah, it was a holy day of remembrance. Of the survival of people and the freedom of, so then to get up as the guest of honor in some ways and walk around the table and do a job and remember washing the feet. They didn't like take off their Nike tennis shoes and pull down their socks.

They lived on dry and dusty and manure covered streets that they had walked through and kicked off their shoes before they came in the house. But the rest of them still had the day's dirt and dust and sweat. They didn't take a shower before they got to the dinner and put on fresh colo. So to do that was a, it wasn't a, it wasn't nec, it was a sacred moment because he made it sacred, but it was a nasty little job to be assigned.

Jason McConnell: Yes.

Eric G Reid: And

Jason McConnell: Yes.

Eric G Reid: the fact that it was a Jewish dinner, he had just like, wait a minute, you can't come back to this table. Your hands are dirty. You've touched, like, there's a whole ritual to getting ready. And he knew all that because he had grown up in that culture. So yeah, it was not just, oh, I'm gonna just show you this one little lesson and then we'll go back to eating.

It was like, I'm gonna flip the table over.

Jason McConnell: huge thing.

Eric G Reid: Yeah.

Jason McConnell: Yep.

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Jason McConnell: And that, I mean, you, you kind of touched on, uh, another topic. You know, you, you write about hiddenness as something to be valued, maybe even desired, Um, which is definitely counter-cultural. I mean, we live in a world that is shaped by rewards and visibility and, you know, you know, what is hiddenness cost you and what has it given you, as you, as you've discovered this new way of, being in your faith?

Eric G Reid: Um, when I say it's cost me a lot. He was a really good drug of choice. Being on stage, being in front of people, being like, all of that was a re like, man, I walk into a room and people would go, oh, that's Eric, we need to go talk to him. He's the leadership like, like at one point within the like, people are like, he's one of the goats, you know, he's one of the old, he's you better live.

And so it was really like I made it. I arrived, where's my dad? Where's his check sheet? He's gotta see this. He's gotta fill it up. And so giving that up was giving up. At the time, what I believed was who I am, like my full, like it wasn't just a job title or name on my lanyard when I went into a meeting, it was all of me like.

All like that's how I identified, that's how I breathe. That's how I dress. That's how everything, and then be like,

Jason McConnell: So it was identity for you.

Eric G Reid: yeah, at a very, when I say deep level, it was like I didn't know how to be, other than the guy that could show up and put on the show, put on the performance. My son still teases me. See the other son's story.

He's like, please don't use that voice. I'm like, what voice? Mob voice and I'm like, oh, sorry. Went into teaching mode for a minute. Gotta slide back out.

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Eric G Reid: Um, so to give it all up and then not have the next thing ready, not have the

Jason McConnell: yeah. Okay.

Eric G Reid: like, you know, as an actor, you leave one movie and you have the next role waiting to go through that period of like, okay, I don't have, and I didn't.

TI don't exist in the world because I don't know what to tell people. I like It became very confusing and very, if I don't exist on social media or called for the speaking gig, I don't exist. And if I don't exist, then nobody needs me. And if nobody needs me, then I'm useless. And if I'm useless, then I can just disappear and nobody will care.

And that became a very frightening place. But in that couple, I mean it's, I learned who is watching and who does care and what it looks like to have somebody come up and go, I, I see you, like, I really see you within the avatar movie type thing. And then to walk in and have somebody go. So what do you think?

And to not have the pressure of all of that, oh, I gotta remember to use this language and that language and be this per like all of that. It was really fun. I sometimes equate it to when you get to switch school districts and your parents say, just know this is a fresh start. You can be whoever you want.

Jason McConnell: Right.

Eric G Reid: And you know you're gonna be the popular kid. Well, they forget to tell you how to be the popular kid at the new school if you were the old school. But it really almost in some ways felt like, like you get to recreate you. What do you want that to be? What do you really want that like really, really want that to be.

And that's in the front part.

Jason McConnell: I was definitely never the popular kid. I didn't want to be in high school. That that's way too much work

Eric G Reid: was trapped. I have an older sister who was the brain like, like, oh, that's Carolyn. Just give her the 4.0 now, no need to start the class. And then I had a younger sister who was a jock. Who could play basketball and tennis simultaneously. And so I was like, okay, that leaves me troubled kid class guard.

Like I'm not really sure where I fit. So that was kind of the avenue I took.

Jason McConnell: Yep.

---

Eric G Reid: So when I read that. Um, in contract law there has to be a exchange of goods and services for it to be a contract or a covenant. And so it's, if you come to me, if you pay a hundred dollars, I will give you this poster or whatever. If you come to me, I will give you this peace, stillness, comfort. It requires me to do something, not that his love is included in that.

It doesn't say, I'll give you love, or I'll give you grace. It says, I'll give you peace. And so it's like, okay, Eric, in order to move towards something, you have to move away from something and what would be the most logical? Move away the thing that's struggling, the thing that you're struggling with, the thing that you're battling with.

And so. Yeah, even as a non-believer, you would be like, well, duh, if you kinda like walk away from the person that's beating you over the head, it'll stop hurting. He's saying the same thing almost. If you are, like, if you're in pain, if you're struggling, if you're fighting, if you're swimming, I'll hell just come over here.

Just take one step in my direction and I will fulfill the rest of the contract and give you a. And so it reminds me that when I'm out of, out of sorts, when I'm in that moment of like, oh, it's like, are you willing to give this energy up in exchange for something else because you can't have both. And some people get so attached to that, ugh, struggle.

I'm struggling for God, I'm struggling for the, are you willing to give up that energy of struggle, strife, fight, whatever it is? Because if you do and you take a a, a step in the other direction, guess what you gain? And I also see it as if I take one step, I get this. If I take two steps, I get more of it.

And if I like take off running at 90 miles an hour, it's just gonna overwhelm me with peace. So that's why I love it. 'cause it's like, Eric, you can sit in this all day long, or you can give it up and take a step in the next direction. You don't have to go the whole journey. Just take a next step.

Jason McConnell: I like it.

---

Jason McConnell: Uh, this has been such a great conversation, but I don't want to forget to talk about your book. Um, leadership was never my calling. Now. You did, you did describe it as a confession rather than a leadership book. who's sitting at the table you're writing for, like, who is this book for?

Eric G Reid: Me. Um,

Jason McConnell: Love it.

Eric G Reid: the funny thing is. When I started to write it, it started because there were, I heard this word called UN leadership. I don't remember where. I apologize. Whoever dropped it, my head, and again, because that's my job, I was like, well, what does UN leadership mean? Like what? Like I've never heard, like, so I started playing around with the word and then I said, you know what?

What would it look like to un leader your life? To undo this hunt for leadership. So it started way off in a different direction of trying to help leaders, especially faith-based leaders who have gotten consumed by that you need to be the lead pastor. You need to grow the church, you need to grow the, like, all of that.

And teaching them how to unle, how to disconnect from that word leader. And that's the original title was leadership was Never the Calling. Because I was trying to speak to an audience and say, you got it wrong. That's not your calling.

That was like 30,000 rewrites ago because I would sit there,

Jason McConnell: That's

Eric G Reid: this is a good, this is a good book, but, and then I'd hear my co-writer go, really? Is it Eric or is it a safe book?

Jason McConnell: Oof. That's hard.

Eric G Reid: And I'm like, come on, God. I'm just trying to make it marketable. I'm just trying to make it available to everybody. I was like, because, and I could hear that voice of, because if I could have a successful book and it shows my quality as a coach, as a writer, as a, like, I was attaching the outcome to my value for my job.

And it was like, oh man, do we really need to make this one a teaching lesson? Can't you just leave me alone? That night, we struggled and wrestled quite often. I'm just screaming, I'd like, can't you just leave me alone? I do not want to do this. So we

agreed, or at least I think we agreed in the beginning that why don't you write it as if you're never gonna publish it?

Jason McConnell: Interesting.

Eric G Reid: Write it. Just write what it would feel like. To just leave that label behind. And so did that, and I was like, no, there's more. Because for me as a writer, I often teach and write through story, and that was the element that was this missing. Missing was the character who was experiencing it. And I experimented with all kinds of great leaders who really never thought leadership.

And somehow in the rewrites and the rewrites and the rewrites it and rewrites, it finally ended up being me talking about what we've just talked about. And then there's entries in it that have my journal notes from that period. And I got finished and I was like, this is a good book. I'm so glad nobody's ever gonna see it.

It's. I feel so much better now that this is outta my system. I can do whatever I want now because, and IU use the joke, I've run down the street naked and I even took off my socks. So anything that happens after this book, I cleared the table. Nobody expects anything from me because, and, but thank you God for giving me that moment to just sit with you and confess and see my life, you know.

And then it was like, so you don't think this is gonna help somebody if they read it? I'm like, no, I'm, I was like, really? So I did all of this work with you, all of this talking with you, all of this growing with you, just for you. I am that selfish of a God that I work on one-on-ones, though. He does. I was like, do I have to?

Yes you do. Do I have? Yes you do.

Jason McConnell: Oh, I argue with God all the time.

Eric G Reid: And then it was like.

Jason McConnell: I

Eric G Reid: I didn't say you had to go for bestseller. I didn't say you had to do any. You just, if you want to quietly release it into the universe, that's all I'm asking your hand on that plow doing what I ask you to do it where I'm asking you to do it and I'll take care of the rest.

So it got finished. It's, I don't wanna say sitting in a box, but, um, and in the meantime, as I finished that. All of a sudden it was like, oh, I need to write about this. I need to write and my, because I write and ghost write for people. Sometimes I put projects on hold because working for them and then I'll come.

All of a sudden it was like, I need to write this and I need to write that. It allowed me to step out of needing to make sure everything was perfect and turn it into is somebody in the room meeting this? Is it useful to somebody else? Can it create it in a way that it has value to one person in a group of a million?

Um, so yeah, it's

Jason McConnell: Yeah,

Eric G Reid: out there. Um,

Jason McConnell: and

Eric G Reid: actually have not,

Jason McConnell: book, right? W

Eric G Reid: pardon

Jason McConnell: Faithful. There was a companion book,

Eric G Reid: there Faithful, wounded was supposed to be in my mind,

Jason McConnell: Wounded.

---

Eric G Reid: number two, but, um, I was sitting in church. And they were going over a lesson of who needs church And the, uh, story of the four guys that picked up their friend, put him on a mat, climbed up on the roof and dropped him in.

Jason McConnell: him in the hole. Yep.

Eric G Reid: Um, was mentioned, and it wasn't mentioned as the core story. It was just mentioned about what church can look like if you bring somebody and all that. I thought, wait a minute. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Roll that back Mr. Pastor Mann. I don't know if I have four friends that would do that for me.

Jason McConnell: Right.

Eric G Reid: I don't even know what those four people would look like because they didn't ask his permission.

He didn't call them and say, I need you to do this. I'll give you 20 bucks. They said, we are in a, we know that just putting you in front of this man named Jesus. Is what you need not for healing. They had no objective except to get him there, to get his butt in the seat at the table. And I was part of a men's group and it came up in a conversation and I said, do you guys know who you're for?

Are? And they, and we bounced it back and forth and we've been spending the last three, five months. Trying to figure out what a four looks like. What is the commitment like? What is the requirements like, what is being a four? That's what we use as our code word mean, and where are we not showing up as a four?

And what do we need to do to get ready? And I love it because as men. We often don't think in terms of, I need the guy who's gonna pull into a parking lot, see my car, recognize that it's at a bar and it's on a Saturday night, and my wife isn't with me, and walk in and grab my butt and drag me out of that bar.

Sit me on the hood of the car and say, I don't care what you do, but as your brother, I'm calling you out and I'm holding you accountable. This is your chance.

Jason McConnell: Yeah.

Eric G Reid: Because we're so worried about hurting and offending and like, do we have and,

Jason McConnell: Yeah.

Eric G Reid: and none of those guys asked permission. They said, this is what we gotta do.

Grab a corner. Guys we're off. And they didn't stop When the crowd was too thick, they didn't stop at the door that they couldn't get through. We're like, okay,

Jason McConnell: climbed

Eric G Reid: we're running outta options.

Jason McConnell: him down.

Eric G Reid: I mean, can you imagine trying to carry one of your friends up to the roof of a a one story house? I would've dropped him on, dragged him up by a rope over the edge, I mean, I, and then tearing up somebody else's house, property damage, we'll talk about later.

But, so we'll pay the cost of a new roof because we are still on mission of getting our friend in front of this guy. And then when it was all over, they all went home and like I pictured went home and had a beer and went, wow. That turned out better than we had hoped.

Jason McConnell: Right. I love it.

Eric G Reid: uh, who's your for is coming up for before the other one?

Um, just again, because my son is moving in, I, as I said, I have a daughter, but she's in special services, so sometimes her stories don't align well. But he's moving into that age where he now has to figure out who his four are and build that school ordinance as he starts to exit high school and move into adulthood.

And I said, you know what? I am not like, I'm just discovering my four. I wanna make sure that he knows what it means to be asked as somebody be somebody's for.

Jason McConnell: Yeah,

Eric G Reid: So

Jason McConnell: so the for the listeners is, is go to c.net and keep checking back 'cause there's gonna be more,

Eric G Reid: pay no attention to what I think is gonna happen.

Jason McConnell: Just, just keep, keep refreshing.

Eric G Reid: Yes, because there is a book that got re getting released next week that's just about how to be a better author in brand yourself. And it's like really, like if you look at my five year plan. You'd have to find the trash can because it typically up there,

Jason McConnell: I don't think I've ever had an actual five-year plan, but that's fine.

Eric G Reid: I'm blessed. I get to work with writers who are transforming and creating and making impact, and so I might think, oh, I really need to speak to this person, this audience, this group. I can see where they're hungry. And then all of a sudden God's like, Hey, here's the voice. I need you to help lift. Through what I do every day, and by the time they finish whatever their book is, and it can be three months or it can be a year, I'm like, oh, they're gonna do a much better job than I could have.

Their story, their life, their mission is so much more on point that I have to scrap another book off my list and be like, well, I'm not gonna be writing that book because that person does a better job. And that's. That's a really amazing feeling to know.

Jason McConnell: Absolutely.

---

Jason McConnell: So well, I want to wrap this up. Do you have any final words for the listeners today?

Eric G Reid: I have a, I keep stones on my desk, like thinking stones just hold and fumble, keeps me from eating. Um, and then once that it says Beloved and on the other side enough. And I roll that thought through my head. Often when I'm stuck, it's like, wait a minute, you're enough and you're loved. Is there anything more you really need?

Well, you may want a bunch of stuff, but is there anything more you need to get back on task to get back with me than to know that when you show up, you are enough. And you were loved, and if I had told little Eric that I can't imagine how much more peace I would've had in life.

Jason McConnell: Yeah, it's a good message. You are enough. So Eric, I want to thank you. This is, I mean, it's not just for your time. I mean, time is precious. I always tell people I can make more money. I can't make more time. So it's the most valuable thing that anybody can give. But also for the kind of honesty that actually does cost something. It's one thing to write about leadership principles. It's much different to say out loud climb left you empty and Jesus is slowly, graciously showing you a better way. And that, I mean, that's the kind of testimony that reaches people who are sitting in, in a place they, they really can't name yet. You know what I mean? It's

Eric G Reid: We,

Jason McConnell: crazy.

Eric G Reid: if there are days, I wish it was, I was more in tune with it. Yeah, but there are days I go to bed with a smile on my face like, man, that was a crappy day. Thank you God for letting me be a part of it. Like, like

Jason McConnell: Yes.

Eric G Reid: the challenge,

Jason McConnell: Yep.

Eric G Reid: because I come equipped differently. I'm not worried about the outcome. I just got to be part of a process that I don't have to manage and control in.

That where in the old me, I'd be like, oh my gosh, I gotta do damage control in the morning. I gotta do this, I gotta do this. Gotta sign up. Like I just like go to bed sometimes. Like, God, why? Why? Why can't you just leave me alone for a day? You just always gotta be teaching on me. Always gotta be trying to mold, always gotta do.

But that's why, you know, when I say it's a relationship, it's the best one I got.

Jason McConnell: absolutely. funny, Romans 10 17 reminds us that faith comes through hearing the message, and I think today through your story, I believe someone is hearing the message that maybe they desperately need to hear. The truth, that presence is better than performance. A closeness to Jesus is not something you earn by being useful, that the vine does the work and the branch is simply asked to remain and, and that you are enough.

You are loved, and you are enough. So at everyone listening, if today's conversation found you in a tired season, please know that you're not failing. You may just be in to abide. Go find. Leadership was never the [email protected],

Eric G Reid: Never,

Jason McConnell: my calling.

Eric G Reid: my sorry. I had to do the editor

Jason McConnell: was, you got me confused earlier. Leadership was never my calling. At LW c.dad, pick up Eric's book and, and take one honest step back towards Jesus today. Um, he'll meet you there, I promise. I've also included links to his website, social media. All the information that I could find is in today's show notes, so be sure to check that out. Eric, we are so grateful for you.

May God continue the good work he has clearly started in you and God bless you.

Eric G Reid: Thank you. It was a joy to be here with you. A lot of fun. A lot of fun.

Jason McConnell: Right on for the rest of the listeners. Until next time, keep loving your neighbors. Dive into God's word daily and may the Lord bless you and keep you and fill you with his peace. Take care of God bless and we'll see you in the next episode.