Summary:

Erica Coffey is a teacher, coach, and people leader with two decades of experience helping schools, companies, and nonprofits build cultures of inclusion, equity, and belonging. She creates brave spaces for real dialogue so people feel seen, valued, and able to grow.

This one starts with a gut punch: “I don’t trust you, and I’m not sure about your commitment.” Erica walks us through how she absorbed that hit, recalibrated, and then flipped the power dynamic—without nuking her career. We dig into stalled promotions, performative optics, sponsor/mentor strategy, and a simple decision tree that saved her sanity: recalibrate or exit.

Chapters:

00:00 – Recalibrate or Exit? The framing that sets the tone.

03:00 – The Stall After a Master’s Checking every box and still stuck.

06:00 – No One-on-Ones, No Plan Owning development when leadership won’t.

12:00 – “I Don’t Trust You” The meeting that changed everything.

16:00 – The Retreat & The Three M’s External fuel for an internal shift.

19:00 – Doors Open, Perspective Shifts From “stuck” to trajectory.

30:00 – Lessons & Limits Knowing when it’s them, not you.

33:00 – My Wrap Action bias, non-negotiables, next steps.

Host Dr. Jim: linkedin.com/in/drjimk

Guest Erica Coffey: linkedin.com/in/erica-coffey-ba862917

Executive Producer Shannon Cornelison: linkedin.com/in/shannon-cornelison-9aa8b8248

Creative Advisor Dr. Jim Kanichirayil: linkedin.com/in/drjimk

Music Credit: "Lost in Dreams" by Kulakovka

I'm gonna recalibrate how I talk to you. How we interact is going to be different.

If it's a manager where recalibration just isn't there and you need to go, you need to go. I've always said we spend so much of our awakened hours at work to spend time in a job where you don't feel like you're respected. That's too much of your awake time. And the toll it takes on, you can take place in ways you don't even realize it.

Like I literally had my hair thinning on the top of my head from stress. I didn't realize how bad it was. And sometimes you don't realize how bad something is until you leave. And that's with any relationship, whether it's job or personal, sometimes you don't realize until it's over and you get to breathe like, oh my gosh, that was bad.

I don't trust you and I'm not sure about your commitment to the organization. Think about being on the receiving end of those two statements. How would you react as an employee? How would that make you feel? If it were me in that situation, it would be a gut punch and there's no way that I could say that I wouldn't get defensive in that moment and want to push back on both of those. That's an actual situation that happened with this week's guest, as she was trying to navigate her way through a career where she felt stalled.

And when she asked her manager what the issue is, that was the response that she got. And to make it even worse, when she explained her perspective. Her manager said, oh, no big deal. Nevermind, that makes sense and moved on.

She believes transformation happens when we listen deeply and ask the questions that matter most. And as A-D-E-I-B practitioner, Erica creates brave spaces for dialogue and connection where everyone feels seen and valued. Her work empowers schools, companies, and nonprofits to build cultures rooted in belonging and sustainable change, and we're pumped to have her on the show. Erica, welcome to the show.

Thank you for having me. I'm really excited.

Dr. Jim: Yeah, should be should be a good conversation. Looking forward to chatting with you. So as usual, we just rip the bandaid right off and get into the messy parts of of what happened.

Erica Coffey: Yeah, so I was in my career, I knew I wanted to advance forward in it, but to do that I need to go back to school, and so I worked again in my master's. My job paid for it. So that was three years of a master's with a 1-year-old at the time, who was four by the time I graduated and I still wasn't getting the promotion I wanted.

So I was like, what is wrong with me? What am I doing wrong? So I started looking up reasons why women don't get promoted, and what I settled on, or what was a common theme was I wasn't dressed up enough. I wasn't doing my hair enough, I wasn't wearing enough makeup 'cause I wore no makeup at all. And so I actually started to change my outward appearance in hopes to get a promotion, new clothes.

Doing, spending more time on my hair actually buying makeup, doing all these things in hopes that it would get me looked at to be promoted and I just didn't feel good about myself doing it.

Indicated to you, Hey, this is what I need to do. Because when you described it, I was like, did you research in Cosmo? Is that where you got that from? what? What happened there?

Erica Coffey: Did a gig, old, good old research on Google and looked at gosh, it's been a while, but I believe some of the articles was knowing that the person to give me promotion was a male and anyone involved was male. What is it about me as a black woman that I may need to do to be seen as a leader? And everything said, women need to look more professional.

And so I did those things. I'm a wake up and go kind of person, and so I really. It was a taxing task I gave myself.

Dr. Jim: So it's interesting that you're describing that because I think back to my early career trajectory and, the things that I heard from leaders at that time is you gotta look the part. You gotta dress for the job that you want versus the job that you're in. And I always looked a little sideways at it because I thought it was odd because we're in the ultimate meritocracy, right?

Our numbers and our performance should do the speaking. Versus how much polish you have on your shoes. So you came up with a solution, but before you came up with that particular solution. Tell us a little bit more about what you had actually accomplished up until that point, that you checked off the box that, that prompted you to ask the question in the pers first place.

What else do I need to do?

No blemishes on my record. And so it was like, I'm, something's missing. What is it that I'm missing? And that's how I landed on I need to change my physical appearance.

Dr. Jim: tell me a little bit more about the work that you were doing and particularly the feedback that you're getting did anything in terms of development and next steps in your career come up in your one-on-ones as part of a development plan? And if so, what were, what was the feedback that you were getting then?

Because I know I'm an asset without a doubt. And I just felt like I just kept getting the run around. I've served on any committee. I was asked to be on any council. I volunteered for anything. I don't know what more I can do

Dr. Jim: A lot of what you're saying is personally relatable because I experienced a lot of those things as I was coming up in my career and. What you just described makes me think of that leadership and development philosophy that was common at the time.

And it might still be common at this point where the edict is employees drive their own development, and here you are in that situation. You're looking for the path to get to the next step. But you're the one chasing it instead of your managers and your leaders guiding you through the process.

Erica Coffey: there's a lot that could have been done. One was to have those meetings with me and when I'm telling you I wanna grow and I'm coming to you to set this career path, help me do it. Come help me figure out those opportunities. Who are the mentors I should seek out?

Is there a sponsor somewhere? Are there workshops I can attend? Because everything I've put into poured into this job is because I love the job and because I love the place where I am. And I would say like, I'm trying to pay it back. You paid for three years of me to be in a master's program and I'm grateful.

So if I'm telling you I wanna stay, you're telling me you want me to stay, but it seems more like lip service, then that's a sign to me that good. Okay. In that time, I'm not, I'm just gonna use this place, use it for good. I'm gonna keep doing a great job, but I'm gonna use it to get all the experiences I can so that when I'm ready to exit, I've got a resume that shows a full array of activities of participation and skills.

Dr. Jim: the one thing that I'm thinking about when you described what you did you mentioned that your manager wasn't even aware of some of the things that you were involved in. And what I'm thinking about is. What were you doing from a self-promotion perspective?

So tell me a little bit more about. The things that you were doing internally to raise your profile and bring awareness to the value that you are bringing to the team.

Erica Coffey: Yeah, so I started working with people in higher positions than me. I chose him as mentors. I actually went up to people and said, Hey, I'm trying to grow here. I would love to see how this part of our organization works. Are you willing to take me on? What can I help you with? And I did that with multiple people, and these are people I respected.

And so it wasn't just about what can you give me, but I actually wanna give it, give back to you as well. And so that grew my experience and it grew what I did, it grew what I learned. I was able to go back to my manager and say did you know I'm doing X, Y, Z? No, I didn't do that right, because I'm trying to grow.

'cause clearly they weren't working. And in the end, like I realized it, what? The problem wasn't me. Their problem was my manager and big boss. It was this expectation they had, it was their thoughts. I wasn't doing anything wrong.

Dr. Jim: So it, when you describe this situ situation, it reminds me of a conversation that I have with one of my friends and they're also a mentor of mine and he worked at a large insurance company. And he was experiencing the same thing where consistently a top performer, he didn't change his appearance and stuff because he is always one of these buttoned down types.

And at bat for it. Why? Why did that happen? And this leader said, I honestly never saw you as the person in that role. And we can take the saw you part, however we want to take it, but your story reminds me of that. And what I'm wondering is, everything that you're doing is an effort to be seen and recognized by the people who.

Have influence and a lot of power in terms of your career trajectory. And when you think back to those moments, what, was there anything that you could have done differently that would have allowed you to be seen to these people that weren't seeing you for whatever reason?

' cause here's what happened. We go in and we're talking, he says, you know what Erica? I just don't trust you. Like my heart dropped. I broke out in the nervous sweats and all the, all sorts of things that go through your mind so fast. I'm like, what have I done? What did I do for him to say this?

It was actually to a dentist appointment. So I get to the dentist, meet my family there. My husband's what's wrong? I'm like, you don't it, trust me. And I was in a shambles, but to him it was just a flippant comment. I don't trust you. Those are not words that anybody ever wants to hear.

Dr. Jim: Yeah. I'm putting myself in your situation and I'm thinking through it. I would've had a hard time keeping my cool, because it, it would've been a WTF moment. What do you mean? What are you talking about? So I'm sure those sort, or maybe not that exact situation, but similar situations come up in everybody's career journey.

Erica Coffey: Yeah, I mean there are a lot of things I wanted to say, but internally, you know, I started to realize he's not someone I can trust, which that's a lot when you realize your manager may not be in your corner. And so I found out about a workshop for women. Leaders in my position who wanted to move on.

Lemme backtrack. I had applied for another job in this organization, which was really embarrassing. Dress up in a, I'm in a suit, whatever, all that all day. And I didn't get the job, even though I had done the work and proven I could do it, I didn't get the job. And things started becoming clear.

And in this workshop, they all told me to quit. Every single person in there, my mentor said, you should quit this job. And I said, I just don't know if it's the right. Move. But they gave me fuel to go back. They did fuel me to say, would you move? And there were three M's, I can't remember the second one that they say, keep women back.

One is marriage, one is mortgage for the life of me. I can't remember the third. So I think 'cause marriage and mortgage were my main concerns. That's why I can't remember the third. So I went back home after that and I talked to my husband. I said, would you move? And he said, absolutely. I said, really?

Dr. Jim: The third M is probably money.

Erica Coffey: It may, yeah.

Dr. Jim: now that you bring up the golden handcuffs, comment it, it might be a good shot that it's money. But I wanna sit in that moment for a second. You went to this retreat you recalibrate with your husband. And you're fully prepared to tear the bandaid off.

And you have this conversation with this manager who earlier said that he can't trust you and he questions your commitment and you're coming back with exactly what he questions you on. That takes a lot of courage. So it feels like you were in a, I've got nothing to lose kind of moment.

When you said and did that, how did this manager react?

Erica Coffey: It was probably something similar like,

oh, poop. Um,

I'm always gonna advocate especially when what someone is doing is starting to affect my mental health, which then affects my family. And so he had a o poop moment, and then the doors started to open. 'cause I meant what I said. I really meant it. Hadn't thought about moving, but I could. And I had the support of my husband and so he realized that golden handcuffs actually weren't so golden after all.

And then I ended up getting a new position, not exactly what I wanted, but it started to move me in the right direction. And then he left and things got better. And that's when I realized I was right. It wasn't a me problem, it was a them problem.

Dr. Jim: I like how you phrased that. It wasn't a me problem, it's a them problem, man. Actually, nine times out of 10 I would. Maybe eight times outta 10. I would wager that whenever you feel your career getting stalled and objectively you can look through things and you're checking all the boxes and you're still stalled that's a them problem, not a you problem.

And this is you advising, people who might be in that same situation that are listening to this conversation.

Erica Coffey: Oh yeah, that's a hefty question. User were recalibrate before, and I think that's the perfect term.

I think sometimes we go into relationships and we expect one thing and realize that's not it, and you have to decide, am I gonna recalibrate or am I gonna exit? I chose to recalibrate, so he showed his hand. I knew what he thought. I knew how he felt.

I'm gonna recalibrate how I talk to you. How we interact is going to be different.

Like I literally had my hair thinning on the top of my head from stress. I didn't realize how bad it was. And sometimes you don't realize how bad something is until you leave. And that's with any relationship, whether it's job or personal, sometimes you don't realize until it's over and you get to breathe like, oh my gosh, that was bad.

Like I, I went through some stuff. And then you learn from it and you look for signals on how to make sure it doesn't happen again. And that could even be in the questions you ask in an interview.

Dr. Jim: So let's talk about those signals like the way you phrased it sometimes you don't really realize how bad it is until you've exited the situation. What are some of those signals that you need to pay attention to so that you can build your own sort of early warning or detection system.

Erica Coffey: So I would say it's knowing, you really have to know, check in with yourself on what it is what are your non-negotiables, right? And once you know what your non-negotiables are heading into an interview or heading into a new job, you have to suss out. In various ways, if you're non-negotiables can be met, and that could be using a case study with a manager.

What would happen if you know in an interview? How would you all handle a situation? Because a lot of times we think in interviews. That they're just interviewing us. No, we're interviewing them as well. And so if I have a job lemme just say an example actually I'm coaching a client right now and they have a set, we've worked on a set of non-negotiables and it says, okay, you've got those.

And sometimes that's by research. I love to research speaking with other people, maybe asking the same question multiple times with different people to see if you get the same response. There are ways you can. Find out what you need to know to be sure you're not putting yourself in that same situation and trust your instincts.

If your gut is telling you something's off, you're probably right because you've always already experienced it once.

Dr. Jim: I like what you described there and how you actually figure out what those non-negotiables are, but I'm putting myself in the context of somebody that's, early, mid-career, there's a power imbalance when you're actually trying to figure all that stuff out because you don't wanna rock the boat you're in, in, in an environment where I guess there's more weight.

Erica Coffey: I think it depends on how, what those non-negotiables are about. So I have another client who's looking for a new job and the non-negotiable list is really long and almost impossible. And we've come back. As a coach, you don't give answers. You don't give judgment. So I've gone back and I'm like, all right, so you have these non-negotiables.

Like you have to pick and choose your battles. And so if you're waiting for all these to show up, but you're in a job that's not good, but you found a job that hitch four, the five non-negotiables, and you still won't take it, you have to stop complaining about the job you're currently in, right?

Because at this point you've made your choice. And so how do you reckon with the choice that you have decided for yourself? So much comes down to, I think, personal talk and personal reflection.

Dr. Jim: I like how you frame that personal talk and personal reflection as you're describing this situation. It remind every one of us has this friend in our group, and if you can't think who this is, it's probably you, but we all know that person. Who's had a bunch of relationships and every time they encounter a breakup, it's always the other person's fault.

So that's good perspective. At some point, there's some level of compromise that you've gotta be willing to take on is what I gathered from that conversation. So I, as we're going through your experience, eventually you had that breakthrough where you threw the gauntlet down and said, Hey, I'm gonna be looking at other things because it's what I need to do.

And then all of a sudden these doors start opening and eventually your man manager left and then things got better. How did they get better? What happened?

Erica Coffey: one, that manager that left, I wouldn't say they left. They were told to leave. And so that's how I really knew it really wasn't me. It was this manager. And this manager then went on to wreak havoc in other places. But I ended up getting into new roles. Because of that manager and the o poop moment.

I was spearheading programs, I was revamping things. That manager left and then we'll call Big boss. Big boss left. A new big boss came in that was more aligned with my vision and my values. And so we had good talks. So I got to grow even more. And then another big boss came in, and by this time I'm no longer reporting to the manager.

I'm only really reporting to Big Boss. And that big boss and I were even more aligned, and I finally got to the position that I wanted. But if I had just rested before when that manager wasn't giving me opportunities, rather than seeking them out for myself and proving to people and being a good colleague, a good partner, a good friend, I wouldn't have been in a position for when the new boss arrived.

Dr. Jim: the one thing that I take away from what you're describing is if your path is blocked and it's blocked by someone else, sometimes you have to create your own path and be intentional about creating that path. When I think about your SI situation and how you stuck through it for a really long time, I'm wondering could you have gotten to what you wanted in a shorter amount of time by leaving the organization and looking elsewhere more in intentionally? Could you have accomplished that in a shorter amount of time by doing that? What I'm wondering is if you could have fast forwarded that experience, how could you have gotten to the end result faster than the experience that you went through, because that sounds really painful and requires a lot of patience.

And so the fact that I had gotten in, finally gotten it to a place where oh, actually we do need someone here who leads up our inclusion work, who does these things? We were actually ahead of the game, and so I did look for other places to go and I couldn't find anywhere that actually wasn't a step back because even though it took me so long to push forward.

We were ahead of the surrounding area. If that makes sense. But if I had picked up and moved to go somewhere else, a bigger city, yeah, probably I probably could have moved on faster. And it's all about weighing that cost of that. Would it have been worth to pick up and move, uproot my family to do it?

It's the grass isn't greener on that side. I'm better off staying put. Am I reading that correctly?

Erica Coffey: You are, there's a lot of lateral moves. I couldn't find anywhere where it would be a step up, and so I just kept pushing forward. As hard as it was with some of the managers and the bosses, I really enjoy the people I worked with. And knowing that, in most situations you don't actually talk to your manager or boss that much, the people at the same level as you had the people who were at the same level of me not been as great as they were.

Oh, I absolutely would've been gone faster. But I did have support. I did have those mentors. I did have those connections and the strength I needed from within the organization and outside to hold strong. But if I didn't have all of that, there's no way I could have stayed as long as I did.

Erica Coffey: One of the big lessons I learned was. I didn't need to change who I was. I was doing things that made me uncomfortable in my own skin, and that should have been a signal right away. A second thing is sometimes, like I said before, it really is them. It's not you, and you have to figure out when that time comes.

Have you done everything that you can have you put forth your best foot? And if you have, and you still aren't getting what you need. Then you have a decision to make. And it's up to each individual to decide how long they're gonna put up with something. How long can I tolerate this? What's the impact it's having on the rest of my life?

Dr. Jim: when you think through this entire experience and you're looking at what you did to come out the other side, and now you're in a situation where you're talking to that person, that's maybe 15, 20 years, you're junior trying to navigate that situation. What are the playbook elements that they need to have on their radar so that they can make their own path when they find themselves blocked from getting to where they want to get to?

Erica Coffey: Yeah, to a younger me, I would say know your worth. Don't let someone else aside your worth, and also make a plan. Do what you can to educate yourself to grow in the ways that you want so that you make it almost impossible to be denied. And if you've done all of the things and you still keep being denied, stop and pause and think about what the real issue is.

Dr. Jim: if people want to continue the conversation, and I'm sure they will what's the best way for them to get in touch with you?

Dr. Jim: Thanks for hanging out with us, Erica. And I think a lot of people are going to be interested in hearing this conversation. When I think through what we talked about there's a handful of things that I think are worth highlighting. The most important element or lesson that I drew from this conversation is that you've got to make things happen. You've gotta have a bias for action. You can't be a passive spectator and. Have things happen to you and throw your hands up when you find yourself blocked.

Part of that action plan that you described is defining what your non-negotiables are and finding out even within those non-negotiables, what are the areas that I'm willing to compromise to get to the next step of what I need to get to. And probably the most important thing out of this conversation that I took away from it is the mistake that you made was thinking that the reason I'm not getting promoted is because of some external optical things that I need to fix.

So I appreciate you sharing that with us. For those of you who've been hanging out and listening to the conversation, we appreciate you doing that. If you like the conversation, make sure you leave us a review on your favorite podcast player and then make sure you tune in on the next episode where we'll have another leader hanging out with us, sharing with us those moments in their career that had them stalled and they thought that they were done for.

Going through those moments, gave them the playbook that allowed them to hit fast forward on their careers.