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(E16) The anxiety expert Ashleigh Frater
Episode 16 • 1st April 2024 • Leaders with impact • Lee Griffith
00:00:00 00:53:47

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In today’s episode, I got the chance to chat with anxiety coach Ashleigh Frater.

Ashleigh is trained in psychology and counselling and helps female leaders to safely process anxiety and stress so that they can perform at their best.

We talk about:

  • what anxiety is
  • the links between anxiety, stress and burnout
  • nature or nurture
  • symptoms and signals to look out for
  • the environmental and societal factors that can impact
  • how anxiety can impact leaders
  • control
  • the knock-on effects for teams and organisations
  • the ‘resilience’ issue
  • self-awareness
  • building the right support network
  • what leaders can do to help themselves and others who might be experiencing anxiety
  • the power of writing
  • the role of the organisation
  • labelling emotions.

Resources and helpful links

If you want to transform your leadership impact book a free consultation call with me

About leaders with impact

Want to know the secret of great leaders? In Leaders with impact we'll be exploring what makes an impactful leader; sharing stories of success and strategies that set them apart.

If you are ambitious for your organisation but are struggling to identify what you can do differently as a leader to deliver the right improvements, then hit subscribe to learn how you can get clear on your strategy, implement some self-leadership and connect with those you serve.

New episodes are released every fortnight.

Get in touch

If you enjoyed the episode please leave a review on Apple podcasts (or your app of choice) and let me know what you thought on LinkedIn or instagram.

I’ll be back with the next episode in two weeks so in the meantime remember to sign up to my newsletter to get notified of new episodes, guest appearances and further insights on how to lead with impact.

Transcripts

Lee Griffith:

On a scale of one to 10, how stressed are you

Lee Griffith:

feeling right now? Is that good or bad, actually is not for me

Lee Griffith:

to judge because it's such a personal feeling. And my

Lee Griffith:

threshold and triggers for stress can be very different

Lee Griffith:

from yours. And some stress, for example, when we're being pushed

Lee Griffith:

out of our comfort zone and growing as a leader, can be good

Lee Griffith:

for us and our growth. I'm Lee Griffith, a communication

Lee Griffith:

strategist, executive coach and champion of leaders who do

Lee Griffith:

things differently and reject the old school stereotypes. In

Lee Griffith:

the leaves for impact podcast, I'm here to help you get clear

Lee Griffith:

on your strategy, implement himself leadership, and connect

Lee Griffith:

with those who serve through your communication so that you

Lee Griffith:

can deliver improved organizational performance,

Lee Griffith:

engagement and reputation. If you're enjoying the podcast,

Lee Griffith:

please leave a review over on Apple podcasts. Now, I've had

Lee Griffith:

many a moment in my career where I've experienced periods of

Lee Griffith:

stress and anxiety, sometimes where or sometimes perceived,

Lee Griffith:

sometimes to the point where actually I felt really unwell.

Lee Griffith:

And I suppose what I've learned from my years of working in

Lee Griffith:

corporate, and the work I do now with my clients, is that it's

Lee Griffith:

actually not about the stress per se, but how we deal with it

Lee Griffith:

and respond to it as individuals. And that's more

Lee Griffith:

about us bringing a whole load of self awareness to ourself

Lee Griffith:

leadership, which is something that I tackle head on through

Lee Griffith:

the coaching strategy days I hold which by the way, if you

Lee Griffith:

think your self leadership needs some TLC, head over to

Lee Griffith:

Sundayskies.com and book a free consultation call with me. In

Lee Griffith:

today's episode, I got the chance to chat with anxiety

Lee Griffith:

coach Ashleigh Frater. Ashleigh is trained in psychology and

Lee Griffith:

counseling, and she helps female leaders to safely process their

Lee Griffith:

anxiety and stress so that they can perform at their best. We

Lee Griffith:

talked about how anxiety can impact leaders and the knock on

Lee Griffith:

effects for their teams and organizations. We also tackled

Lee Griffith:

the resilience issue. And we explore what leaders can do to

Lee Griffith:

help themselves and others enjoy. So I'm delighted to

Lee Griffith:

welcome Ashleigh Frater, to the leaders with impact podcast this

Lee Griffith:

week. Hi, Ashleigh, how are you today?

Unknown:

I'm so so good. Thank you so much. So I'm happy to be

Unknown:

here.

Lee Griffith:

I'm really looking forward to this conversation. As

Lee Griffith:

we were talking briefly before I hit record, I think this is one

Lee Griffith:

of those topic areas that can sometimes in the old school

Lee Griffith:

approach to leadership, that it's it's a topic that's you've

Lee Griffith:

just got to kind of grin and bear, bear through it. And you

Lee Griffith:

shouldn't really lean into that emotional side of your being. So

Lee Griffith:

I really want I was really keen that we covered and tackle that

Lee Griffith:

head on in today's discussion. And so for those who don't know,

Lee Griffith:

you're an anxiety coach, is that the best way to describe you?

Unknown:

Yes, definitely. Definitely anxiety.

Lee Griffith:

Excellent. And so, I suppose to start anxiety is

Lee Griffith:

probably one of those words where it does mean different

Lee Griffith:

things to different people. So people often say that they you

Lee Griffith:

know, I say this all the time, I'm feeling anxious about

Lee Griffith:

something or the other. But it can be a bit like stress, I

Lee Griffith:

suppose it can be a bit overused, perhaps. So what would

Lee Griffith:

you in your professional capacity, describe anxiety as

Lee Griffith:

well,

Unknown:

you speaking about stress, and then to be about

Unknown:

anxiety and how people use it quite interchangeably, is linked

Unknown:

heavily, heavily linked. So really, anxiety is the result of

Unknown:

on manage stress. So most of the time, you know, you come into a

Unknown:

into a environment, something happens as a trigger, an event

Unknown:

happens, you see something in memory, something happens. And

Unknown:

you have a stress response, technically. So it's something

Unknown:

that's outside of your normal so your body is seeing this as

Unknown:

something to pay attention to. So you feel a little bit, you

Unknown:

know, your attention is now on that thing, whatever that is.

Unknown:

And so you feel stressed. So your body is flooded with

Unknown:

cortisol, which is the stress hormone, and average day, once

Unknown:

your body is flooded, flooded with that is signaling to you to

Unknown:

rest at some point. You're meant to take risks, you're meant to

Unknown:

start, take a step back, react in that way and respond to the

Unknown:

stress hormone. But if we don't, and we just allow the stress

Unknown:

levels to continue to rise and the cortisol levels to continue

Unknown:

to increase the body then moves into anxiety. So that's when

Unknown:

stress when it hasn't been dealt with, or it hasn't been

Unknown:

responded to in a way of resting or pausing, it then moves into

Unknown:

anxiety. And where anxiety is, again, stress, I like to call it

Unknown:

stress trapped in the body. That's how I like to describe

Unknown:

it. Because most of the times when you talk about, you know,

Unknown:

you're speaking about people use anxiety quite often, it's like,

Unknown:

to me, it reminds you of the word value. Values are very

Unknown:

overwhelming, overused word, like, you got to share value,

Unknown:

you got to give value, like what does value mean? Like, it means

Unknown:

very different things to different people. So anxiety is

Unknown:

also used quite a lot, like I'm feeling anxious, but a lot of

Unknown:

the time. And the thing that stays the same is that it's I'm

Unknown:

feeling. So it's usually a feeling in the body, like, I'm

Unknown:

feeling anxious, right? I'm feeling anxiety right now, or

Unknown:

those kinds of terminology, but the first part tells you which

Unknown:

is a bit of NLP, that is the feeling is the body part, that

Unknown:

is a good signal to where the stress is commonly trapped.

Lee Griffith:

Right? So So anxiety almost is the physical

Lee Griffith:

manifestation or symptom of stress not being dealt with.

Lee Griffith:

Yeah, 100% fascinated. Now see, I've already learned something

Lee Griffith:

because I had just always assumed that they are different,

Lee Griffith:

unrelated, related, but unrelated thing. So it's the

Lee Griffith:

same said for words, like when people say I suffer burnout, or

Lee Griffith:

even when they talk about things like, I feel like I've got low

Lee Griffith:

self esteem and low confidence that they all similar in the

Lee Griffith:

same kind of family with are they different?

Unknown:

I mean, I would say, so Bernau is the, you know, there's

Unknown:

different levels of burnout, like there's different levels of

Unknown:

stress, there's different levels of anxiety, like that. But by

Unknown:

now I see as the quiet far end of the spectrum, like when

Unknown:

you're burnt out, you know, like, that's when stress is, is

Unknown:

at its peak, and you are forced to rest most of the time, like

Unknown:

when people are out there, you know, severe levels of really,

Unknown:

really high levels of burnout. And again, burnout is a is a

Unknown:

mixture of things, but average day is just unmanaged emotion,

Unknown:

that there manifests in you doing average me too much than

Unknown:

the capacity that you have to give. And then it therefore

Unknown:

manifests physically within your body. So it can again, manifest

Unknown:

into anxiety. At some point, I'm sure people that get to levels

Unknown:

of burnout have felt anxious, because again, stress or managed

Unknown:

money in the body manifests as anxiety, and then just ramped it

Unknown:

up. So sometimes people do, you know, have burnout, and also

Unknown:

levels of depression, as well as, you know, I mean, panic

Unknown:

attacks and things like that they depending on the different

Unknown:

circumstances, and the environments, and you know,

Unknown:

naturally the personality, and the person itself, like their

Unknown:

lifestyle, nutrition, it's just, it's a full circle thing. It's

Unknown:

like not just one isolated thing. That yeah, you know,

Unknown:

relates to someone being burnt out. It's a collection of things

Unknown:

that ultimately, I believe, comes down to unmanaged emotion.

Unknown:

Because at some point, there was disappointment, maybe there was

Unknown:

an appreciation, maybe there was a lot of doubt. And when we

Unknown:

don't pay attention to those emotions, we try to outrun them

Unknown:

by doing things by covering them up by numbing them. And when you

Unknown:

do those things, those emotions don't go away. In fact, they

Unknown:

grow a lot more stronger. They have a lot of strength, they

Unknown:

transition into more aggressive emotion, which will come out in

Unknown:

anger in frustration, you know, I mean, so you can see now it's

Unknown:

starting to increase, the temperature starts to increase,

Unknown:

the more and more things happen, things build up. And people, you

Unknown:

know, if it's like a volcano, they blow their top, they burn

Unknown:

out. Yeah. I love whatever that mental health condition becomes.

Unknown:

That's when they're at their peak. Yeah,

Lee Griffith:

I was, as you were talking, you use the analogy of

Lee Griffith:

volcano and temperature and I had this almost a Richter scale.

Lee Griffith:

So you've got a Richter scale of stress, and depending on how

Lee Griffith:

well you're managing it, you go through different levels of and

Lee Griffith:

then the end is the kind of catastrophic ending have dealt

Lee Griffith:

with it. Yeah,

Unknown:

absolutely.

Lee Griffith:

So, where does anxiety come from? Is it

Lee Griffith:

something that is, I suppose, artificially produced after

Lee Griffith:

being triggered? Buy something in your life? Or is it something

Lee Griffith:

that's in the fabric of your makeup or your constitution and

Lee Griffith:

you kind of you have it from birth, and you're likely

Lee Griffith:

therefore, it's likely to manifest. Is it something that

Lee Griffith:

everyone gets, or it only certain types of people,

Unknown:

I think it's every human being experiences anxiety

Unknown:

at some point, because we always experience stress. Because not

Unknown:

all stress is bad. Also, like, that's a good thing to point

Unknown:

out. Like, you can go to the gym, and you'll put your body

Unknown:

under stress, that's not necessarily a bad stress,

Unknown:

because, you know, the end result, you know, you're kind of

Unknown:

doing it intentionally because it's gonna hurt, it's gonna be

Unknown:

uncomfortable, but you know, the end result you're looking for,

Unknown:

however, you can cross over in, while you're trying to avoid

Unknown:

something by going to the gym and doing too much, and putting

Unknown:

your body under immense level of stress, because you're trying to

Unknown:

outrun doubt, or some negative emotion that you don't want to

Unknown:

feel, you know, I mean, so it is, it can be a bit of a fight

Unknown:

night. So firstly, stress, you know, it's a human being thing,

Unknown:

anxiety is something that everybody experiences. And when

Unknown:

we're speaking about anxiety, that is different levels of

Unknown:

anxieties. So in a sense of, you can have anxiety, that then

Unknown:

becomes a medical condition. And that's a completely different

Unknown:

ballgame. Because once it becomes a medical condition,

Unknown:

your biochemistry has changed. So it becomes a physical change

Unknown:

in the brain, and the different hormone levels, and that I've

Unknown:

increased and decreased and requires no medication to be

Unknown:

able to help, you know, balance you out, technically. So that's

Unknown:

quite different. But I don't feel and I believe that people

Unknown:

are born like babies born with a mint, like an anxiety disorder.

Unknown:

Do you know what I mean? It's very, it can be environmental.

Unknown:

So like, when you are a child, and there's certain things that

Unknown:

have happened in your childhood, they can heavily as you know,

Unknown:

childhood, her trauma is a big thing. Like it's a very well

Unknown:

known thing. Now everybody's speaking about everyone's diving

Unknown:

into it, a lot of childhood trauma is coming up in

Unknown:

adulthood. And people have absolutely no idea things that

Unknown:

have happened that affected them from from when they were five,

Unknown:

six, even younger, when they're 40 5060. Do you know what I

Unknown:

mean? So things that happened in your childhood, can heavily

Unknown:

influence and affect how your emotions are, how you

Unknown:

emotionally regulate yourself, how you respond to things, the

Unknown:

hints, like triggers and things like that, how you're responding

Unknown:

or reacting to things, and therefore how you, you know,

Unknown:

manage your stress. And so anxiety can be something that

Unknown:

you can have from a young age. But I definitely believe that

Unknown:

it's around the environment that you sit in the role models,

Unknown:

upheaval that you're looking at as a child to model what you're

Unknown:

meant to do, how you're meant to feel how you're meant to respond

Unknown:

to stressful situations, if you have some parent or carer or a

Unknown:

brother or sister that you live with, that you see regularly as

Unknown:

a child that has, you know, they're a bit anxious or a

Unknown:

little bit more overreacting for whatever those reasons, you as a

Unknown:

child, expect and have to do the same. You think, Well, that's

Unknown:

the way I should behave. So you then develop in that way, with a

Unknown:

lens of this is the right way to behave. Not until you get older,

Unknown:

or you run into certain situations in your life, do you

Unknown:

realize, well, this is not really working? Like this is not

Unknown:

helping me this is not now not healthy? You know? I mean, I

Unknown:

think that anxiety is something that we're not born with, as an

Unknown:

anxiety condition. We're all born to feel anxiety, because

Unknown:

it's helping us pay attention to something like stress is

Unknown:

something that we all even as in the womb, you hear a midwife

Unknown:

say, the baby is distressed. Because heart rate drops, you

Unknown:

know, temperatures change, and the smallest change to an

Unknown:

environment in a baby in the womb, can make their heart rate

Unknown:

increase or decrease which therefore means it shows that

Unknown:

there's stress within the body, even as the unborn child so

Unknown:

stress is not necessarily a bad thing, but it's something that

Unknown:

we experienced from literally the womb.

Lee Griffith:

And I suppose one of the things that was going

Lee Griffith:

through my mind before we record this episode is that actually it

Lee Griffith:

can be so situational where it how it shows up so people have

Lee Griffith:

you know, sometimes I go I've got health anxiety because So I

Lee Griffith:

always get nervous before I have to go, you know, for a hospital

Lee Griffith:

appointment or something, people might have social anxiety and

Lee Griffith:

they don't like being in crowds or talking in public. And so

Lee Griffith:

there's lots of different things where they might not think that

Lee Griffith:

they are an anxious person or even stressed, but might use

Lee Griffith:

those types of phrases.

Unknown:

Yeah, no, definitely. And the things your anxiety is,

Unknown:

it's always based on something outside of you, most of the

Unknown:

time, it's the uncertainty of something. It's the lack of

Unknown:

control or something. So even for me, like, I hate spiders,

Unknown:

and that technically is a type of arachnophobia is a type of

Unknown:

anxiety. You know, I mean, so it's that fear of like, the

Unknown:

spider is there? What is it gonna do? Where is it gonna go?

Unknown:

Am I gonna be able to see, do I have to touch like, all of the

Unknown:

things, I can't control any of those things? Like, I can't

Unknown:

control the spider. But it's the thought of the spider that's

Unknown:

causing me to feel anxious and very stressed about the

Unknown:

situation. You know, I mean, so that's just like you said,

Unknown:

social anxiety is about other people, again, how they're going

Unknown:

to perceive you, how if they're gonna judge you like, it's all

Unknown:

about the external perception of how it makes you feel

Unknown:

internally. So again, it's about anxiety is based on us. And I

Unknown:

suppose it's generated as a feeling in our body in a way

Unknown:

based on an external person situation source that we are

Unknown:

unable to control, and we're worried about it. So what are

Unknown:

the some of

Lee Griffith:

the symptoms and warning signs to be aware of,

Lee Griffith:

because I'm conscious, and you've made this point about not

Lee Griffith:

all stress is bad? Yeah. And there is something about, you

Lee Griffith:

know, if we sit in our comfort zone, where everything's feels

Lee Griffith:

comfortable, we never progress. And I'm thinking particularly in

Lee Griffith:

that leadership context, you do need to stretch yourself out and

Lee Griffith:

feel that discomfort in order for you and your organization to

Lee Griffith:

progress. So how do you pick up I suppose the warning signs that

Lee Griffith:

it's more than just pushing and stretching yourself?

Unknown:

I would say that, especially when it comes to

Unknown:

leadership, I think it's all about your values, I always go

Unknown:

down to the basics when it comes to like, you know, a coaching

Unknown:

foundation or is based on your values, what are your core

Unknown:

values, and if you are therefore doing something that is within

Unknown:

an aligned in your values, but is not within your

Unknown:

comfortability, then that's right, you're gonna feel levels

Unknown:

of stress, because you're doing something that's brand new. So

Unknown:

naturally, you're going to have to use more brainpower, you're

Unknown:

going to be a bit uncertain about something, you're going to

Unknown:

maybe be a little bit more nervous, those emotions are

Unknown:

going to come up. And that's very, very natural to do. I

Unknown:

think when we are now operating on things are outside of our

Unknown:

values, oh, and they're conflicting, that I feel is a

Unknown:

very different emotion. And I feel like you feel it more

Unknown:

intensely. And you might have a lot more, you know, thoughts,

Unknown:

that feel very, quite big, if that makes sense. Because like,

Unknown:

if you're doing something outside your comfort zone, you

Unknown:

kind of have that impostor syndrome a little bit like I

Unknown:

shouldn't be doing this, but you still kind of do it, but you

Unknown:

just have that like, underlining feeling like, maybe I'm not the

Unknown:

right person for this, but you're gonna keep going

Unknown:

anywhere, because you've kept it into something, especially if

Unknown:

you're needy, like you can get into something, there's probably

Unknown:

some level of accountability around there somewhere that's

Unknown:

keeping and holding you accountable to what you say, to

Unknown:

keep progressing forward. But if it's something that is very

Unknown:

common, you know, is the complete opposite to what your

Unknown:

values are. So say, for example, your bias is honesty. Like,

Unknown:

honestly, it's a very important core value to you. And you're

Unknown:

doing something that's very dishonest, because of outside

Unknown:

influences, because of other, maybe within the senior

Unknown:

leadership team, they're wanting to do something that doesn't

Unknown:

quite feel like it aligns with your honest value. And then you

Unknown:

go along with it anyway. Because you know, it's the collective,

Unknown:

you go along with it, give it a go. You're gonna have some level

Unknown:

of reaction internally to be like, this does not feel right.

Unknown:

Like if only you know, as a person, how strong that's going

Unknown:

to feel. And averagely, you know, there's something that's

Unknown:

really not right here. And you probably will say, This doesn't

Unknown:

feel right, but I'm gonna do it. Like you're probably gonna say

Unknown:

that to yourself at some point. So then to me immediately,

Unknown:

that's a red flag straightaway to realize there's something

Unknown:

you're going against your gut and your gut is telling you that

Unknown:

there's something wrong. So then you go with the collective

Unknown:

naturally and things progress and then have, you know, you

Unknown:

then will start to feel stressed, you're gonna feel that

Unknown:

there may be more conversations that happen, more decisions that

Unknown:

need to be made. And you'll feel very stressed about it. Because

Unknown:

you're now feeling that, well, this is awesome. I want to do I

Unknown:

don't truly believe in this, you know, I mean, and then you're

Unknown:

starting to feel anxious, because you're like, what if

Unknown:

this happens, and what does that happen? And then how do we, you

Unknown:

know, troubleshoot and put this fire out if this happened,

Unknown:

because you're now having to preempt failure ahead of time,

Unknown:

because it's not really something that aligns with you,

Unknown:

really, you should have said, No, this is the other idea I

Unknown:

have, or I can't be a part of this. But sometimes, again, that

Unknown:

creates anxiety, because you're now being separated from the

Unknown:

pack, you're going to be different, you're going to stand

Unknown:

out. And depending on you know, your confidence levels, your

Unknown:

self esteem, your self worth, depends on how confident and how

Unknown:

much courage, you have to be able to say that, and, and

Unknown:

advocate for yourself within this context that we're speaking

Unknown:

of as an example. So I feel like from a leadership perspective,

Unknown:

values is the biggest decision, I always say it's your compass,

Unknown:

like, it tells you where you need to be going. And you can

Unknown:

never go wrong, as long as you know what they are, you can

Unknown:

never go wrong following that. The problem comes is when you go

Unknown:

against them, and you're trying to then outrun the bad decision

Unknown:

by doing all the other things. And that's where I see and

Unknown:

believe that the stress and anxiety starts to kick in. And

Unknown:

really the anxiety is there to let you know that there's

Unknown:

something wrong. Yeah,

Lee Griffith:

that's a really clear way I suppose to

Lee Griffith:

articulate the challenge when you are in I'm thinking

Lee Griffith:

specifically when you're in organizations where perhaps

Lee Griffith:

culturally, it can feel a bit toxic, and you're trying to

Lee Griffith:

achieve something as an organization that, and actually,

Lee Griffith:

as you've said, if they're not, if they're not aligned with the

Lee Griffith:

values, and they're not there, all they're doing is

Lee Griffith:

perpetuating a poor. Yeah, culture, which actually has such

Lee Griffith:

a significant effect, not just on that individual, it has a

Lee Griffith:

knock on effect and ramifications for the team for

Lee Griffith:

the organization. So it's pretty major, isn't it? Absolutely.

Lee Griffith:

100%.

Unknown:

Because, again, like you said, if you're a leader,

Unknown:

you're in a leadership position, you have people you're needing,

Unknown:

so your decisions affect other people. So people that are, you

Unknown:

know, your team or the wider team, naturally are going to

Unknown:

trust you as a leader. And trust that you're making the right

Unknown:

decisions that affect them, as well as the whole organization.

Unknown:

And trust that your values are truly at the core of all your

Unknown:

decision making. And if fast, they're broken, then that's,

Unknown:

that's like a domino effect. Because in that trust, it is

Unknown:

very easily broken. And it's hard to build back. Yeah, yeah,

Unknown:

right. doubly difficult to build back, especially amongst a lot,

Unknown:

a large number of people. Like it's hard building trust with

Unknown:

one person, let alone like a whole team, a whole division is

Unknown:

incredibly difficult. So I feel like, again, the best thing as a

Unknown:

leader is no your values and make sure you stick to them and

Unknown:

follow them as much as you possibly can. And if you do,

Unknown:

they're in the wrong direction. course correct. Go back to the

Unknown:

drawing board, go back to level one and be like, Hey, what are

Unknown:

my values? And where did I go wrong here. Because naturally,

Unknown:

you're a human being, you're not going to make the decisions, the

Unknown:

right decisions all the time. And people will forgive that

Unknown:

naturally, if you are not to them. You're transparent. You

Unknown:

have levels of vulnerability, which I think are incredibly

Unknown:

important, as a leader, for sure. Just say that I did this

Unknown:

wrong. And this is how I'm going to, you know, correct it. And

Unknown:

this is my changes, and you're just being transparent with

Unknown:

people, people appreciate that, especially if you want to build

Unknown:

a culture of honesty. And if honesty is your value, you have

Unknown:

to you know, I mean, so yeah. Yeah, I think yeah, it's so

Unknown:

important, like decision making as leader just make it a value

Unknown:

based decision. So one of the things

Lee Griffith:

that I noticed and maybe it's a pattern that you

Lee Griffith:

see with people who are managers and leaders who could be

Lee Griffith:

described as stressed or anxious is this need to feel like

Lee Griffith:

they've got to control everything around them because

Lee Griffith:

that's that's the way they're going to manage They stress. And

Lee Griffith:

what they often do is create this parent child like dynamic

Lee Griffith:

to stay in control. But they still struggle to make decisions

Lee Griffith:

to avoid certain situations, all of that kind of stuff happens

Lee Griffith:

when, when a leader is stressed, I suppose how, how big a problem

Lee Griffith:

do you think it is in a leadership context?

Unknown:

I think that, to be a leader, you have to know

Unknown:

yourself. And it's fine. If you, you know, you're a new manager,

Unknown:

or you're in a new position, and you don't, you're still trying

Unknown:

to figure that out. But you're actively discovering yourself.

Unknown:

Self awareness is incredibly important for any human but

Unknown:

especially specifically humans, that are leading other people,

Unknown:

like letting an understanding, you know, yourself. So I think

Unknown:

that's the first thing. And then, within that inquiry, you

Unknown:

will start to pick up, I'm a bit, you know, apprehensive when

Unknown:

it comes to making decisions, I do feel a little bit overwhelmed

Unknown:

by, you know, certain environments and time

Unknown:

constraints, certain, you know, pressures, you know, you'll

Unknown:

figure this out, once you really go on the journey of like,

Unknown:

really starting to understand who you are, maybe as what your

Unknown:

role was previously, and then the identity as a leader, and

Unknown:

figuring out what that what you would like that to be, as well,

Unknown:

because a lot of the time, I think people just fall into

Unknown:

positions, and they kind of know winging it, which is fine. But I

Unknown:

think if you were being proactive, then understanding

Unknown:

the kind of leader you would like to be. And then operating

Unknown:

from that person. It really helps. Because speaking about

Unknown:

like the parent child kind of dynamic, when it comes to like,

Unknown:

you know, stress and making decisions and things like that,

Unknown:

what if you were able to, but I really enjoy in coaching, you

Unknown:

have this like future self concept. And it's really

Unknown:

powerful, because you are who you are today, but you want to

Unknown:

get somewhere, which is usually a different identity, right? And

Unknown:

more elevated and more calm and whatever the attributes are of

Unknown:

that identity, but especially from a leadership position. What

Unknown:

kind of leader do you want to be? How does that lead up?

Unknown:

Speak? How does that lead to make positive decisions? How

Unknown:

does that leader speak to their team? How do they operate? What

Unknown:

does their morning like? Every single detail of specifically,

Unknown:

what that leader looks like? And then, especially from the

Unknown:

emotional perspective, it's like, what are those values,

Unknown:

which are likely to be the same as who you are now, but you

Unknown:

know, maybe more, demonstrating them more in a more public way?

Unknown:

And therefore, What emotions do you want to be generating?

Unknown:

Because how you feel is how you make someone else feel, and they

Unknown:

show leading a team, then, if you want them to feel empowered,

Unknown:

then you have to feel empowered yourself. You know, I mean, and

Unknown:

again, parent child, it's not I do one thing, and then they have

Unknown:

to do another, like, no, they're watching you. So you have to

Unknown:

demonstrate what it is that you also want to see. So therefore,

Unknown:

when you actually cultivate like, these are the kind of

Unknown:

emotions I really want to demonstrate on a regular basis.

Unknown:

Because as a leader, I want to be when you're in a situation

Unknown:

where you're feeling. And if again, how does that lead to

Unknown:

deal with stress? How does that lead to deal with? Oh, well,

Unknown:

nothing's perfect. But you have to be proactive. And you have to

Unknown:

think about these things. So that when you're in a situation,

Unknown:

you have a choice. Do I respond as me now? Or do I respond as if

Unknown:

you only do a name? Like ex leader, right, give it a good

Unknown:

punch usually helps. And then you switch into a different

Unknown:

identity. And you're like, Well, no, this person is going to make

Unknown:

decisions quickly. Even if it feels uncomfortable, I'm going

Unknown:

to make them quickly. However, if it is a wrong decision, I'm

Unknown:

going to course correct quickly. Again, you know what I mean? So

Unknown:

therefore you're learning to proactively deal and respond to

Unknown:

stress overwhelmed with things that kind of naturally makes you

Unknown:

feel a bit uncertain, unsure, and you're proactively

Unknown:

responding to them, because you've planned ahead of time.

Unknown:

Like I said, Nothing is perfect. We can naturally just be

Unknown:

triggered by something and we react instantaneously. But then

Unknown:

you also have time after reaction to them respond. Yeah,

Lee Griffith:

I think that's really important because there's

Lee Griffith:

pretty much very There's very little, I can think of where you

Lee Griffith:

can't preempt certain situations that might arise in a leadership

Lee Griffith:

perspective. Specifically, there's an if you think that x

Lee Griffith:

is a particular problem that you deal with, like decision making,

Lee Griffith:

you can easily due if you create that time and space to spend

Lee Griffith:

that time going, right, well, what kinds of decisions Am I

Lee Griffith:

being asked to make? Yeah, have I dealt with them in the past?

Lee Griffith:

How would I like to deal with them in the future? And what am

Lee Griffith:

I going to do to start to take so yeah, I completely agree. I

Lee Griffith:

think there's, there's, I can't really think of any examples

Lee Griffith:

where you can't prepare for something that might happen. One

Lee Griffith:

of the things that I suppose you talked about that emotion and

Lee Griffith:

people, you're almost role modeling as a leader. So how you

Lee Griffith:

behave and how if you're experiencing stress and anxiety,

Lee Griffith:

your response to that? People pick up on that? And I suppose

Lee Griffith:

what that made me think of is I've seen examples where teams

Lee Griffith:

start feeling anxious, because they're picking up on the

Lee Griffith:

signals of their leader who's anxious, and it's this ripple

Lee Griffith:

effect that goes across the team. Yeah. And we often talk

Lee Griffith:

about leaders needing to be vulnerable, and sharing their

Lee Griffith:

emotions and feelings. But sometimes that can trip over

Lee Griffith:

into the leader, offloading all their worries and concerns,

Lee Griffith:

which can actually then I suppose, build that sense of

Lee Griffith:

anxiety and stress even more in their team. So how do they? How

Lee Griffith:

can you start to get that balance, right, of being open

Lee Griffith:

and showing vulnerability? But not transferring responsibility?

Lee Griffith:

I suppose. Yeah.

Unknown:

I think, again, self awareness is really important.

Unknown:

Like, I think that's just at a basic level, that has to be a

Unknown:

regular thing. Like you have to be inquiring self evaluating,

Unknown:

constantly for yourself, so that you know, when you are

Unknown:

projecting, or when you're just sharing, like, they're very

Unknown:

different things in, but it's all emotionally that you will

Unknown:

know it emotionally, where you're like, maybe if something

Unknown:

is still quite raw, something has happened. And you haven't

Unknown:

spoken about it 21 yet, and you've been overthinking it, you

Unknown:

know, you think about it in your head quite a bit. Maybe you're

Unknown:

feeling a bit worried about it. And then maybe you run into like

Unknown:

a team member. And then you're like, they asked one question.

Unknown:

And then you're like, you just let it all out. And then

Unknown:

afterwards, you feel like that kind of like exhaling feeling.

Unknown:

But that's when you know you've offloaded? Yeah, that's the

Unknown:

difference. Like, that's when you know, like, okay, because

Unknown:

then you will question oh, maybe I shouldn't have done that.

Unknown:

Like, you know, I mean, you might have that thought

Unknown:

afterwards, people, but because initial relief feel so good,

Unknown:

know that you've offloaded on someone. Whereas if you have

Unknown:

already kind of thought about the situation and processed it

Unknown:

and reached some level of conclusion or a solution for

Unknown:

yourself. And then you're sharing the lessons, or maybe

Unknown:

the story from now a place of processed emotion, then that

Unknown:

sharing, and that's you've been vulnerable. That's you sharing

Unknown:

your thoughts at the time, which it could have happened

Unknown:

yesterday. But you've processed it in the day, you've reached

Unknown:

your conclusion, and you're not so emotionally attached. You

Unknown:

have a detachment of it, and now you're just sharing, then, and

Unknown:

you know, sharing the story of what happened and lessons, what

Unknown:

you're thinking, what you're feeling, even the challenge is

Unknown:

like all other kinds of storytelling, basically. And

Unknown:

then you're like, that's something that they can take

Unknown:

away. And that's vulnerability. Because most people don't share

Unknown:

that kind of thing. You know, I mean, they think like all some

Unknown:

of their business, I don't want to expose myself, I don't want

Unknown:

to be seen as weak by sharing that I had a failure or weak

Unknown:

moment, or I struggled with something, then, you know,

Unknown:

that's another situation. But if you want to be more vulnerable,

Unknown:

it's all about how it feels. And it's all about the processing

Unknown:

part. Because the first example I gave that, that was you or

Unknown:

that person trying to process with another person that's not

Unknown:

trained to take it. And they didn't ask for it. You know, I

Unknown:

mean, you offloaded and that is very, it's very unsafe, because

Unknown:

when you offload on someone, they then take it on and you

Unknown:

don't know their emotional state and whether they have the

Unknown:

emotional capacity to be able to risk Is the information and the

Unknown:

emotion that comes with that? So that's yeah, that's,

Lee Griffith:

we've, I've talked in other episodes, and with some

Lee Griffith:

of the chief execs that that I've interviewed, and we've

Lee Griffith:

talked about the importance of nurturing and being intentional

Lee Griffith:

in your support network, exactly for those types of scenarios, so

Lee Griffith:

you're not offloading to the wrong people, but that you've

Lee Griffith:

got a trusted safe space. And that might be, you know,

Lee Griffith:

professional, you might have a coach, you might have a mentor,

Lee Griffith:

you might have a counselor, possibly, depending on the

Lee Griffith:

situation, it may be peers in your organization that you know,

Lee Griffith:

you can create that space with, but very rarely, it's likely to

Lee Griffith:

be your team members.

Unknown:

Yeah, but I think, in order to know, the difference

Unknown:

between offloading and sharing vulnerably is really how

Unknown:

attached you are, to to the story, or wherever it's

Unknown:

happened. If you're very attached to it, you're gonna

Unknown:

have thoughts about what you said afterwards, that maybe I

Unknown:

should have said this, or maybe I did too much, or you're gonna

Unknown:

feel very uncertain, and maybe a bit doubtful. But when you're

Unknown:

just sharing, you feel empowered by it, you feel like you're

Unknown:

unattached because you've processed through the emotion.

Unknown:

And you've reached your end solution that requires a nobody

Unknown:

else other than yourself. And now you're just sharing so isn't

Unknown:

isn't emotional, you know, the feeling? Your your sense it in

Unknown:

yourself? The difference is for sure. Yeah.

Lee Griffith:

So we've talked a lot about, I suppose, being

Lee Griffith:

tuned into the internal signals that you might experience when

Lee Griffith:

you're feeling stressed. And when you've gone on that scale

Lee Griffith:

to anxiety or

Unknown:

worse. Yeah, what what can you

Lee Griffith:

do if you, you know, someone's listening to

Lee Griffith:

this, and they are now clicking into actually, these feelings

Lee Griffith:

that I'm, I've been feeling don't feel great. And I need to

Lee Griffith:

do something about them, or they've recognized maybe

Lee Griffith:

behaviors in someone else that they're going, Oh, this feels

Lee Griffith:

like, what, what would you recommend that someone does,

Unknown:

so if they're feeling a little bit off, because you

Unknown:

know, we all have those days or periods of time, or, you know,

Unknown:

circumstantial things that come up, where you just don't feel

Unknown:

yourself, I always say, to just take some time away. And even if

Unknown:

it's a work day, that could just be take some time away from your

Unknown:

desk, at home, in the office, take, you know, an hour's lunch

Unknown:

outside, give yourself perspective, give yourself you

Unknown:

know, a different environment, kind of think, and see kind of

Unknown:

what comes up for you. Um, I think the other thing I always,

Unknown:

always, always recommend is writing down your feelings and

Unknown:

your thoughts specifically, because later down the line,

Unknown:

even if you, you know, decide, hey, I need to speak to my GP,

Unknown:

or I need to speak to a therapist or a counselor, then

Unknown:

or even the coach, then the most useful thing you can give them

Unknown:

is your diary of thoughts. Like, it's because we have to help you

Unknown:

quicker, because if, say you are writing for a week, or every

Unknown:

time that you feel this, especially if it becomes quite a

Unknown:

frequent thing. So it's like, every day, there's a really odd

Unknown:

feeling. And then you write down, like, this is what I'm

Unknown:

currently thinking, the literal words and sentences in your

Unknown:

brain, writing those down along with the emotion that you can

Unknown:

label it. And then every day it comes up or it feels triggered,

Unknown:

then there's a pattern that you can potentially see when you see

Unknown:

string of thoughts over a period of time. It's a bit like the

Unknown:

doctors if, you know, you're complaining for a headache,

Unknown:

they're gonna ask you, well, what are the scenarios that are

Unknown:

happening? What are you eating? So if you keep a diary for a

Unknown:

week, even though just seven days can help the doctor to be

Unknown:

like, Oh, okay, I can see that maybe it's around, you know, the

Unknown:

time of day, or it could be your nutrition or whatever that is.

Unknown:

So it's the same with to do for mental health, like, they're

Unknown:

your thoughts have patterns. And once you're able to see even if

Unknown:

it is three days, five days, like doesn't have to be 10

Unknown:

weeks, but at least consecutive days, or at least the times when

Unknown:

they're triggered you write them down. It helps us to be able to

Unknown:

help you identify, Okay, this event might be happening, and

Unknown:

it's making you feel this and then we can, the line of

Unknown:

questioning is a lot quicker than if you're starting from

Unknown:

scratch, which is absolutely fine. We can do the same way.

Unknown:

But I always say even for yourself if you notice, I'm

Unknown:

saying Hang on feeling frustrated at x. And then on

Unknown:

Thursday, I'm saying I'm feeling frustrated at the same person.

Unknown:

And then on Monday, you're saying, I'm feeling frustrated

Unknown:

about the same person, even for you, you can see the repetition

Unknown:

to be like, maybe there's something so new naturally, you

Unknown:

can question that yourself. Um, so I feel like journaling is

Unknown:

always a go to for sure. And then finally, it's just reaching

Unknown:

out reaching out to someone that you trust, reaching out to a

Unknown:

professional, if you don't have anyone you know, in your

Unknown:

immediate circle, or, you know, in your network that you can't

Unknown:

trust, and doesn't feel completely safe. Because you

Unknown:

need someone that's non judgmental, you need someone

Unknown:

that doesn't, regardless of what you say to them, you don't feel

Unknown:

that they're going to judge you. Yeah, right. So trained people,

Unknown:

of course, help because you're trained to do that. However,

Unknown:

there are people that you probably have in your circle in

Unknown:

your network that are naturally good listeners, and they're just

Unknown:

there to kind of listen and reach out to them art. So maybe

Unknown:

got a minute, have you got five minutes here, we got assignments

Unknown:

for a chat, because something's really been playing on my mind.

Unknown:

And I could do with just someone listening. And I think it's

Unknown:

important to instruct the person, especially if they're

Unknown:

not a professed, trained professional, what it is you

Unknown:

want them to do, because a lot of the time, when you go to

Unknown:

someone and you're like, I need to chat, immediately, the person

Unknown:

that you're going to is going to want to help you, they're going

Unknown:

to want to find a solution, they're gonna want to problem

Unknown:

solve, and that's what you're looking for. Unless that is what

Unknown:

you're looking for. But if you're looking for someone, just

Unknown:

to listen, tell them, all I need you to do is just be a listening

Unknown:

ear. And then they feel relaxed about how they can therefore

Unknown:

help you because listening is so powerful. And there's so much

Unknown:

power in silence of the other person, just taking it all in

Unknown:

view. Yeah, yeah,

Lee Griffith:

I've seen that's really helpful. And I'm assuming

Lee Griffith:

there are other things, in general, that will help. So

Lee Griffith:

you've talked about nutrition, and you've talked about

Lee Griffith:

sleeping? Well, you've talked about movement, you know,

Lee Griffith:

getting outside, all that kind of stuff. Those Those are things

Lee Griffith:

that we would recommend that as leaders, you're looking at any

Lee Griffith:

way to show up as you're in your kind of best state in the

Lee Griffith:

workplace. But I suppose they're also particularly important when

Lee Griffith:

it comes to stress and anxiety. Yeah,

Unknown:

no, absolutely. I think, again, anxiety, and

Unknown:

stress is all in the body. Like, that's the thing, because a lot

Unknown:

of the time, we think we've got to think our way out of feeling

Unknown:

anxious. And really, you have to just, you have to change your

Unknown:

physical state, in order for you to feel better, because, again,

Unknown:

you feel anxious and feelings are in the body. So definitely

Unknown:

nutrition like caffeine is one thing that does not help with

Unknown:

anxiety and stress. Like it only exacerbates it more, you know,

Unknown:

lack of water, like kind of a peace exam. You know, most

Unknown:

people kind of know, like, not too much sugar, getting enough

Unknown:

sleep, you know, moving, doing those kinds of being more

Unknown:

mindful if you can. And I know meditation is really a big

Unknown:

thing. Now like trying to just find little pockets of just

Unknown:

pausing. I like to use it as pause because meditation can

Unknown:

sound a bit intimidating.

Lee Griffith:

But you've got to be some people think it's a bit

Lee Griffith:

Whoo, yeah.

Unknown:

Just practice pausing. I like to put it in that term to

Unknown:

be like, just pause for a minute, you know, I mean, just

Unknown:

take a minute. And you don't even have to be like not

Unknown:

thinking about anything, you can be washing up, you could just be

Unknown:

gazing, you could like so many little things that kind of help

Unknown:

you to kind of what I call it is increase your emotional

Unknown:

capacity. So all those little moments, you're just adding to

Unknown:

your car. So then when it's time for you to spill out, especially

Unknown:

as a leader, you're constantly pouring, you have more to pour,

Unknown:

you know, by just gaining back those minutes by pausing every

Unknown:

can be every 30 minutes, you take a two minute gaze or

Unknown:

whatever, you know, not so regimented, but you just weren't

Unknown:

aware of these things and you are actively looking for that

Unknown:

hey, I'm going to pause it or I'm going to take a five minute

Unknown:

break or a 10 minute break or whatever that is. So um I think

Unknown:

the core like nutrition staff absolutely movement, absolutely

Unknown:

mindful pauses. Absolutely. And of course that you can be more

Unknown:

structured more routines like you know, the time management

Unknown:

stuff is really good too. But I would always go with the change

Unknown:

your emotional, physical state first, and then do the strategy.

Unknown:

to use that can help you manage your time better and things like

Unknown:

that. And most people do the opposite way around, and they go

Unknown:

to time management, and then figure out and wonder why it's

Unknown:

not working or sticking. And it's more stressful. If

Unknown:

anything, yeah. Because you haven't moved the emotion in

Unknown:

your body, and you haven't released it anywhere. Yeah,

Unknown:

that's really

Lee Griffith:

important. We've talked a lot about, I suppose

Lee Griffith:

the individual leader and their own responsibilities to themself

Lee Griffith:

and to others. But if we will look more broadly, at the

Lee Griffith:

organizational view and perspective, a lot of

Lee Griffith:

organizations and HR departments often focus on this need to

Lee Griffith:

build resilience, and perhaps ignore some of the other things.

Lee Griffith:

And they believe that that that's the answer that's going

Lee Griffith:

to solve the kind of cultural issues that they have in their

Lee Griffith:

organization. What's What's your view on the role of the

Lee Griffith:

organization? And what can they be doing to help leaders and

Lee Griffith:

individuals with anxiety?

Unknown:

I think, such a broad, broad questions. Sorry. No,

Unknown:

you're the question we could have,

Lee Griffith:

we could have a whole episode on that. I know.

Lee Griffith:

He's

Unknown:

such a big, meaty. Okay. So I think that from an

Unknown:

organizational perspective, I think that, especially if you've

Unknown:

got a cultural issue, I think that seeing everyone as an

Unknown:

individual, which could be quite difficult, but seeing everyone

Unknown:

as an individual is probably the first thing that's going to

Unknown:

help. Because when people are in a group, and they just feel like

Unknown:

a number, or just staff, they immediately feel unimportant,

Unknown:

and non significant, not feeling like their needs, matter, or

Unknown:

even have been paid attention to. So I feel like when you pay

Unknown:

attention, like a child, like when you pay attention to a

Unknown:

child, and you stop ignoring them, they actually behave

Unknown:

better. Like you get to understand what the problem is,

Unknown:

you know, what their emotional issues are, you know, what their

Unknown:

significant issues are, you know, what their triggers are

Unknown:

all of those things. And it's very similar. Like, I adults are

Unknown:

really children walking around in the world. But again, in,

Unknown:

especially in organizations, you realize that there's so many

Unknown:

different, you know, personalities, dynamics, and in

Unknown:

the workforce, but everybody is an individual. And I think if

Unknown:

organizations are able to, from the top down, start to treat

Unknown:

everyone as much as they can. Because obviously, I know that

Unknown:

some places have hundreds and hundreds of staff members, but

Unknown:

then they have managers, right, that's the highest, that's a

Unknown:

different structure of the organization. And there's a

Unknown:

reason for that, so that it trickles down from the top, from

Unknown:

the top down, that all each staff member matters. And so

Unknown:

that's even like a value of this. Do you know what I mean?

Unknown:

Like everybody matters? How do you demonstrate that through the

Unknown:

way you are managing those people? How you're having no,

Unknown:

you know, I mean, different types of conversations with them

Unknown:

different types of opportunities to bring them together, to get

Unknown:

them to be able to voice how they're feeling to be able to

Unknown:

express themselves, especially if it's a cultural thing, people

Unknown:

have a lot to say, they feel a lot. And most people when it

Unknown:

comes to culture, I believe that especially because it's of the

Unknown:

people, if they don't feel heard, that's when they start,

Unknown:

things start going all over the place. And you know, what I

Unknown:

mean, culture starts, the morale starts to decline. And all of

Unknown:

those things averaged is based on people feeling that their

Unknown:

needs are not met. And the most basic need that any human being

Unknown:

feels and wants is to be heard. They just want to be heard and

Unknown:

listened to. And therefore, just by that makes them feel more

Unknown:

important, and it's more personal. Yeah. Yeah, you know,

Lee Griffith:

so less less, let's put on a resilience

Lee Griffith:

course, yet more listening would be the first spend of money. No

Lee Griffith:

offense to any trainers of resilience courses.

Unknown:

I actually went up to visit Ian's course a few weeks

Unknown:

ago, it was a great cause. I think it was quite good. But the

Unknown:

difference is I chose to go on it because it was an option.

Unknown:

Yeah. Not that I was forced to. I think that's a different I had

Unknown:

a choice. You know, I mean, yeah, and I chose to do it like

Unknown:

this learn a little bit more. And resiliency is great when

Unknown:

it's used in the right context, but if it's used as a plaster,

Unknown:

it's a problem. Yeah,

Lee Griffith:

yeah, I completely agree. So we're getting to the

Lee Griffith:

end of our time together. My final question I asked everyone

Lee Griffith:

on the show is what's your one tip or piece of advice that

Lee Griffith:

you'd want every leader to pay attention to?

Unknown:

I would say I'm, especially I'm an emotions

Unknown:

person. So when it comes to like, pay attention to how

Unknown:

you're feeling, like, that's the biggest tip that I can say. And

Unknown:

it can do wonders, if you pay attention to how you're feeling,

Unknown:

and to label it correctly. Because a lot of the time what I

Unknown:

find, especially with these in the beginning of the

Unknown:

conversation, we spoke about stress and anxiety and how

Unknown:

overused those terms are, and people don't know what they are

Unknown:

anymore. What it's like instead of using anxiety can use

Unknown:

nervous, instead of using anxiety, you could use the word

Unknown:

disappointed, right? So when you are labeling your emotions

Unknown:

correctly, then P is the best better way to communicate with

Unknown:

people. And therefore people actually truly know how you're

Unknown:

feeling rather than the blanket term. You know, I'm finished

Unknown:

stress, I'm okay, so worst, I'm okay. I'm fine. What is okay,

Unknown:

and what is fine, like that's not any much I understand. I

Unknown:

would say pay attention to your feelings, and label them

Unknown:

correctly. And if you don't know, because, again, we have

Unknown:

quite limited vocabulary when it comes to emotion. Go on any

Unknown:

Google Pinterest, whatever and just typing we love emotion

Unknown:

gives you so many more words to use. And it's such a great tool

Unknown:

even for your team, as well as your you know, yourself as a

Unknown:

leader. 100% so much better. And you will realize how much more

Unknown:

you can communicate with people more effectively, just by

Unknown:

labeling your emotions more clearly. Yeah. And

Lee Griffith:

I suppose I'd love that as a piece of advice. My my

Lee Griffith:

suppose addendum to that would be if someone shares their

Lee Griffith:

feelings to you, rather than you assume you know what that means.

Lee Griffith:

You could ask them, you know, you could make the point. I know

Lee Griffith:

what nervousness means for me. But what does that mean for you?

Unknown:

To connect with them, you know, I mean, like, it

Unknown:

really does help. Because as humans, we're emotional beings,

Unknown:

despite the fact that many people like to be like, I don't

Unknown:

have emotions. I don't show him like you do. Yeah, so yeah, do

Unknown:

and the people that think they have less emotions are the ones

Unknown:

that have the most like, yeah, most of the time. They just work

Unknown:

hard.

Lee Griffith:

No emotion. No emotion is emotion. Yeah. Well,

Lee Griffith:

thank you so much for your time. This has been it's been really

Lee Griffith:

eye opening. Actually, if people want to get in touch with you

Lee Griffith:

follow what you do. Just give you some feedback, kind of, if

Lee Griffith:

they've learned from from this episode, How best can they

Lee Griffith:

connect with you?

Unknown:

it. So if you have anything to say, please do email

Unknown:

me or hit me up on LinkedIn. Perfect, and I'll put all the

Lee Griffith:

links and everything in the show notes for

Lee Griffith:

people power. Right. Well, thank you so much for your time. Thank

Unknown:

you so much. Thanks for having me.

Lee Griffith:

If you enjoyed the episode, please leave us a

Lee Griffith:

review on Apple podcasts. And let me know what you thought on

Lee Griffith:

LinkedIn. You can find me at Lee Griffith. I'll be back with the

Lee Griffith:

next episode in two weeks time. So in the meantime, sign up to

Lee Griffith:

my newsletter at Sunday skies.com for monthly insights

Lee Griffith:

on how else you can lead with impact. Until next time,

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