What happens when a successful attorney finally admits he can’t do it all? When letting go becomes the only way to grow? In this in-person episode, I sit down with Kevin Rubin, founder of Rubin Family Law, to talk fear, delegation, and the mindset shifts that turned chaos into culture. How do you build a thriving firm without losing control—or yourself—in the process?

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. To that point, so. One of the things that has, uh, it's been running, it's like on a, it's like a repeat for the last few days. You gotta let grow to grow. It's like that. That's, that's the mantra that i'm, i'm. Playing over and over in my mind. Gotta let go to grow. Yeah. Which is is what that is. I have not let anybody in my inbox yet. Uh,

Welcome to the Founding Partner Podcast. Join your host, Jonathan Hawkins, as we explore the fascinating stories of successful law firm founders. We'll uncover their beginnings, triumph over challenges, and practice growth. Whether you aspire to launch your own firm, have an entrepreneurial spirit, or are just curious about the legal business, you're in the right place.

Let's dive in.

Kevin Rubin: Jonathan, thanks for, I'm honored to be your first in person guest for the podcast.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah.

Kevin Rubin: Thank you for having me.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. So, I know about you and know what you're doing and what you've been doing. Why, why don't you sort of introduce yourself, tell us about your firm, how many folks you have, that kind of thing.

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, it's been fun. I'll tell you from my perspective, watching your firm grow. I mean, when you started, you know, we'll get into this, but you know, you, you were, not super excited. I'll say back in the day, when you started, and maybe not sure exactly where it was gonna go, but man, you've really, really grown it pretty well and I like that. So, first thing is, so you're not from around here, are you, man, you're from, you're from, philly, aren't you?

Jonathan Hawkins: Okay. So I was wondering what brought you to Atlanta? So you, you had started law school somewhere else and you finished at Emory, is that how?

Kevin Rubin: Yeah, I tried one year in New York City and then my wife got a job down here and, weather can't beat it. I didn't wanna shovel any more snow. And so we moved down here and three kids later and her parents moved down. we're not moving anywhere else.

Jonathan Hawkins: Alright. So I gotta know phillies or Braves,

Jonathan Hawkins: Well, I'm surprised you're not a Phillies fan. I mean, 'cause they're pretty diehard.

Kevin Rubin: Yeah, they're, they're that hard. I'm more eagles and then honestly, growing up we were. Flyers. I mean, I probably was going to a couple games a week cause I, I was driving and I got the pleasure of taking one of my brothers each time with me. So I had three younger brothers, so I got to go to every single game I wanted to.

Jonathan Hawkins: Nice.

Kevin Rubin: and we just loved ice hockey. Yeah.

I'll say, yeah, 90% accident, 10%. design after getting into it. So I guess after my first year of law school, I got a uh, with a judge, down in Atlantic City doing family law.

Jonathan Hawkins: so no, you can't talk about specific cases or of clients for sure. But, I imagine you see some crazy stuff in this practice area.

Kevin Rubin: Yeah, just, just when I think you can't see something, you know, I've seen it all. It's like the internet, you know, it doesn't end. yeah, something else pops up and new things happen all the time. and or new financial, gimmicks, or I wouldn't say gimmicks, but, you know, uh. Tax code issues, things like that. Everyone's always looking for something. It's just in interesting 'cause it's really, we just follow people.

Jonathan Hawkins: The, the text messages you've seen, I'm sure

Kevin Rubin: everything you text can and will be used against you in a court of law.

Jonathan Hawkins: Oh yeah. Be careful out there folks. Yeah. yeah. Okay. So, you, you've got your own firm now, but before, before that you, you had another firm, but even before that you worked at a cult, maybe two, three firms. So take me through the progression. So you, got a job out of after Emory?

Jonathan Hawkins: so that, so that's interesting. So, you know, I mean, ev a lot of senior attorneys aren't even really. Aware of the business of law and you as an associate very early, sort of got exposed to that. and part of that, and I've talked to some attorneys that, they don't collect money and they end up just working for free.

Kevin Rubin: Yeah.

Jonathan Hawkins: Stressing themselves out, and making it all bad for everybody. and so, so part of it was, I guess getting paid was part of what she taught you? Anything else?

Jonathan Hawkins: and that, you know, that's a huge problem. I see a lot of it. and even, you know, the folks who get in trouble with the bar financially or whatever, or hit the bottle or whatever.

Kevin Rubin: Yeah.

Jonathan Hawkins: you know, there's a lot of stress. A lot of it, I don't wanna say all of it, but a lot of it is that if they just got paid for what they did and not let these things slip,

Jonathan Hawkins: it would solve so many problems. but for some reason lawyers are. I'm scared to ask for money. a lot of times I don't

Kevin Rubin: well, the other thing I, I, and I was talking to my wife about this last night is really in law school there needs to be a class on how to be a business because a lot of us partners, owners of law firms, we are business people too. And, you know, I was fortunate. I was an undergrad business major. I did it work. so I had a little bit of a foundation. But even then, you know, the fundamentals, I mean, there's so much that goes into running a firm as you know. I mean, you are CFO, COO, CMO, CTO, everything, C-suite that you can be. You are, and we really weren't trained. Or when we were associates or even equity partners, we weren't given, you know, we weren't seeing what the Wizard of Oz did behind the curtain. and it's a shame because a lot of us really need to,

Kevin Rubin: Yes.

Jonathan Hawkins: Basically as an attorney. But at some point you decided, Hey, I'm gonna go out. And give it a shot at my own firm.

Kevin Rubin: Yeah.

Jonathan Hawkins: So I wanna get to that point. So what, you know, what drove you to do that? I, I, you know, I've talked to a lot of people. Sometimes they're forced to do it. Sometimes they always knew they were gonna do it. they just needed that little push. Sometimes, uh, someone convinces 'em to do it. Yeah. What, what was the push for

Kevin Rubin: you? So I was at, after I left, Nancy, I went to another firm and I was there. I became a partner there. and. Really it was, I guess you could just say it was a midlife crisis. I turned 40. my friend, I was uh, little bur my wife put a party together for us. Uh, about six couples. One other guy there, Hal Lman, who is in Atlanta

Jonathan Hawkins: And by that you mean you wanted to maybe have a partner or someone you're doing it with? Yes. Where, like you said, you need something, it happens, uh, or someone brings it to you. That being said, it was just the two of us with the paralegal, so it quickly became, all right, we need something. You and I gotta go do it. and we did. And so we did start a firm, built it up a little bit, and, you know, that, that, went a good, almost four years. and then, uh, we partied ways, uh, relatively amicable. and, uh, I far, i, I formed my own firm at

Alright, so let's go back. So when you, after talking to Hal, you're like, all right. I'm doing it, I'm leaving.

Kevin Rubin: Mm-hmm.

Kevin Rubin: yeah, Because you're like, I gotta, I gotta tell 'em. and then, so,

so tell me about,

so leading up to it, I, obviously I was in talks with my now former partner, but we were. what are we doing? Where are we gonna go, in terms of where the office is, yada yada. So we'd formalized everything at that point. And then. I sort of made a plan. my wife and I both turned 40 around the same time and she just happened to be in europe for a meeting and I was like, well, why don't I go over there, join you, we'll go to Barcelona for a long weekend and when I get back is when I'll break the news.

Jonathan Hawkins: guys are coming and going,

Jonathan Hawkins: And so another issue, When people leave, it's whatcha gonna do with the clients. Now. It sounds like you were a partner, you probably had your own book of clients, uh, that no one else worked with, so it probably wasn't a big deal about who's gonna get what client. I imagine that was the case, but maybe there were some that. You weren't sure where they were gonna go. There may have been some that you're like, please you keep this one.

Wow. So it, it was good compared to. To others? Most maybe.

Kevin Rubin: Mm-hmm.

Jonathan Hawkins: any advice on sort of, you know, approach to partnership? choosing a partner, you know, dividing the responsibilities once you're there, or you know, just making it work. 'cause it's, it's not easy. It's not easy.

Jonathan Hawkins: Good. So, yeah. Okay. So now let's, now we're bringing up to your firm. and so you've been a partner at a firm. You, you, you started a firm with a partner and now you're going out on your own. So what was that like in term emotionally, starting over and you're doing it all by yourself? What was going through your mind?

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah,

Kevin Rubin: no, I should have done from the beginning. What I eventually did was hire someone who's an expert and I could have, if I would've just worked those two hours, I would've far exceeded. The cost for these email signatures, and there's no way I was doing them as great as she did. in fact, multiple people have been like, that's a great email signature. I'm like, I know. I'm pretty happy about it. so, but know what your highest and best use is and focus on what you do best. And for most of everyone, I'm pr presume listening, it's being a lawyer. don't do the stuff you don't know. It's okay to get help. I think that applies anywhere in life.

Jonathan Hawkins: I love how, you know, the, the sort of the blank page. Where you're like, hard to get started, at least get you past that and then you can start moving. So, so technology and some of these things, processes, what, what other sorts of things have you done over the last three and a half years to help build and grow your firm?

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Real quick. Thanks for listening. If you're getting any value out of this podcast, please take two seconds to hit the subscribe button and leave a five star review. It would really mean a lot to me. Now back to the show.

Jonathan Hawkins: let's move on. So. You know, part of the growth of any firm is is adding people, but those people have to have work to do. Mm-hmm.

So, um, on that end, you gotta bring the cases in. Yes. And so to bring the cases in, you gotta do some business development, marketing type stuff. So i'm curious. you know, uh, I'm sure you get a lot of referrals, but, other than that, what other sorts of things do you do to market your firm or or bring in cases?

Jonathan Hawkins: and real quick, lemme interrupt. Yeah. You know, there there're, um, different levels of family law attorneys. Mm-hmm. And my sense is that you, you, I mean, I know you represent. You got famous people that people have heard of, so you're sort of probably on the upper, upper end. Or how would you describe, and maybe you know, my sense is that. If you got famous people, it's a referral. They're not, they're not getting you off of Oh ChatGPT or Google.

Jonathan Hawkins: ChatGPT.

Kevin Rubin: Yeah. Yeah. I've, I've been hearing that. Yeah. So i, I was just like, wow. But I mean, it makes sense if you think about it. 'Cause it's out there on the internet, it's searching everything. And so I guess if my sEO is good, then

I think

they're

calling it

GEO,

generative,

wait,

search

engine,

generative engine

optimization.

But

I

feel like it feeds

in

from SEO.

Yeah.

But

I have

gotten a few lately

where it's

like,

where'd you find

us ChatGPT?

I'm like,

that's

interesting.

so I guess,

You know that it

comes in there, but that's not my bread and butter.

no,

it's

typically other lawyers,

uh,

former clients, word of mouth. I mean, I am in

a couple

organizations that are,

so I will get referrals,

especially from around the country, from my colleagues. The A ML. Mm-hmm.

Um,

I, I

will

send

people out, especially

if it's

all right.

Do you

know

someone in New

York?

Do you

know someone

in Texas,

Florida?

Oh

yeah.

Here,

call this person.

I'm good

friends with them.

They'll take care of you.

and I get

that in return.

And

that's always nice too.

Jonathan Hawkins: And

you know, good point. You know, I mean.

Try

to keep

your clients

happy,

although in

divorce, I

imagine that's

challenging,

but also,

you know, be

active

with colleagues.

uh,

both

locally and nationally.

Uh,

I think

that's

a

great

point. you

know, when

you're

involved with

some

of

these

national

organizations,

if they ever have

anything in

Georgia or

Atlanta,

they're gonna

think

of

you. So that,

that's good.

so

I

wanna move on again to,

we

talked, we've

sort of

talked about

this a

little

bit. I'll just

call

it mindset.

I'll

just call

it

mindset. We

talked a

little

bit

about fear

and,

you know, some

of your,

your

approach to

culture and

training,

talked

about that.

But, you

know,

looking back

over

the last three

and a

you know,

maybe, um.

How has your mindset changed, if at all, and

you know, do

you think that's an important thing in terms

of growing your firm?

And, and I ask because personally I feel like, you know, you know, you hear this saying, we got you here, we'll get you there.

and

it's, you know, you sort of grow up to your limits and

then

if

you

don't change.

then

you're, you're,

Not

gonna go anymore.

And

so I

have

recently been bumping up

on mine, and so

I

had to

step back

and sort

of think

about

things,

and

and I

think I'm

going in

the right

direction.

I think

my mindset

has, has

shifted.

Uh,

but I'm Curious about

you and what you've

sort of

experienced

over the

last three

and

Kevin Rubin: half

years.

I've definitely grown and changed mindset in certain areas and, and, been pushed

to.

Experiment,

I guess you could say in some different aspects.

And I

don't

know,

I

Think most

lawyers were

type

A,

were control

freaks,

right?

we gotta, and

don't get me wrong, I, I

try to give my team, as

much leeway, but

I wanna make sure that the work

that's going out, the representation is

top notch for these clients.

But, I've learned to,

there are

things that I

can delegate.

And

at

first, Like,

for example,

I brought in a virtual

assistant

to

help me manage my email

because

it is just

an onslaught.

it

just never ends.

And the organization of it is the pain.

and also just sorting and

getting

copied on emails and, and, I

like to make sure everyone who's

on

a case is copied. You know, are there any action items for me on that email?

No. It's

more for top,

you know, awareness or

later on maybe I might need it,

but it's going through the emails and getting 'em sorted and

I honestly was just like, I'm not doing this. There's no way I'm giving.

anyone

access to my email.

And then finally, someone

pushed me

and

was.

Just

give

it a

try.

Just

just

get it in

there. I

mean,

you've got

10

and

I'm not

that

bad

compared

to

some,

I've

got some

colleagues who

have

50,000

plus emails

in

shit.

Exactly.

Um,

I had maybe like

slightly

less

than

10,000 when

I

first

brought in

somebody,

of which.

2000

were unread,

which

is

me

leaving

them unread.

I

read '

em,

but

I'm gonna

get back

to

it. And

then

of course

you

move

on to

the

next issue.

You

still solve

it, but

then you forget

to go

back,

mark it

red and

moved

it,

move it,

out

to a

Jonathan Hawkins: folder.

So, man, when I have,

when.

Over

70, I

started

getting

stressed

out.

I

know, right?

Isn't it just

like

you

wanna

say,

I can't

imagine

over

a hundred

or

a

thousand

or 10,000.

Oh

my

gosh.

Yeah.

I

was at

10.

A lot

of them

are

old, but

Kevin Rubin: I

knew I needed and I was like, all right, well I'll get to it, I'll do it. And it was again, the mindset of what's your highest

and best use. And

I

came to that realization

and I

was

nicely

pushed, by,

uh, a

business coach.

to

bring

someone in.

Pay

them,

you know,

$50

an hour

to

go

through

all the

emails, '

move

Get

'em

into

the folders.

Clear

out your

inbox.

I,

I don't think I'll ever

get down

to what?

net zero, not inbox

zero.

Inbox

zero.

There's

no way.

' cause

they just

keep

coming in

and,

you

know, all

the,

your

CES

are at

this. I'm

like, I'll

never get

rid of

those,

even though

they're

in

the other

folder.

but

point is that I was pushed and I, you

know, the mindset initially was, oh, there's

no way

I'm gonna

let anyone in this

Now. I'm like, I can't live without that person.

we have a system in place,

You

know, I will look at an email,

I'll

hit a button, it

goes

to an

archive. They go in the archive, they move it around, and then once a week they'll go through the main in inbox.

And if it's obviously, obviously something that was sent

to the client.

You know, Hey, here's a

copy of this motion we filed.

You know,

or, uh, and I'm copied on it.

They'll mark it

red, they'll move it to the folder.

You know, 'cause a lot of it is, here's the service email to the opposing counsel. Here's the email

to the client.

Jonathan Hawkins: Yeah. To that point, so. One of the things that has, uh, it's been running, it's like on a, it's like a repeat for the last few days. You gotta let grow to grow. It's like that. That's, that's the mantra that i'm, i'm. Playing over and over in my mind. Gotta let go to grow. Yeah. Which is is what that is. I have not let anybody in my inbox yet. Uh,

Yeah.

Um,

and

then

in

terms of

other

mindsets, I

would say, You

know,

one thing

I

think is

always

the constant

fear

is

the phone

won't ring.

And

Oh,

woe

is me.

The

phone hasn't rung

in

like

two weeks.

You

know it.

I

don't

think I'll

ever

get

over that fear,

but I've

come to the realization

and

a

very

good

colleague

of mine

is

like, look,

it

won't

ring

for two weeks.

And then you

get

five

calls in

one day

and you

got

five

new

cases and

now

you're like,

oh

God, I

got five

new

cases.

So

you just gotta

learn

the ebbs

and

flows. It

ebbs

and

flows, but

it

still,

Jonathan Hawkins: it comes

in. So

I've got

advice

for you.

Yeah.

When,

when

you're,

when

the

phone's not

ringing.

Go

on vacation.

That's

when

everybody wants

to

hire you.

Oh,

when

you're away.

Yeah.

That's,

that's

that's smart.

That's when,

that's when

the phone

starts

rigging.

Yeah.

What the

hell?

Uh,

so, okay,

I,

I

got a

couple

more questions

and we'll

wrap

up. So,

I

guess

first thing, for

people out

there that are, maybe a

behind you

on

the journey,

or maybe thinking about starting a firm, any advice out there for, you know,

starting a firm,

growing a firm, operating a firm,

Kevin Rubin: anywhere you wanna go?

So my biggest

piece of advice for anyone who's looking to make a move or, or doing what I did when I hit my midlife

crisis of 40 and was like, all right, I'm ready to move on.

I

would say find a mentor, find someone who is gone out there, who's done it,

and

is willing to give you some advice even if just meet with you for an hour.

I'm always talking to

younger lawyers who are, you know,

hesitant,

wanting to make a move.

I'm

happy to give my time to them.

because,

I did it,

and I wanna see them succeed.

And so I would

say do that. The other thing is

also,

like I said earlier,

find

your highest and best use of your time.

So

if you're

not a bookkeeper

and math scares you because you're a lawyer.

Don't

be the bookkeeper.

you know, charge you less than your hourly, substantially less than your hourly rate and do a 10 times better job than you would ever do.

be

doing your own books.

it is not. Your highest and best use of your time.

But, But, going back to that first point, I would say if anyone you know there, I know cause I'm on the state bar committee for this, I think for,

small firms or, or something,

there are resources out there

so

don't be afraid, to ask.

You're

not the

first

person to

go

through this.

You

don't

have to

go it

alone. You

don't

have

to reinvent

the

wheel.

The

State Bar

of

Georgia in

particular and

other

state bars,

I'm

sure

have

materials on

how to

get things

going. '

cause

there's a

lot,

I

mean, malpractice,

your

bank account,

your,

your,

everything

there is,

believe

it or

not,

someone

has

been there

and

someone

has created

a

guide

and

it just

gives you

that,

okay,

I

can do this.

I

got

it.

I

see the

checklist,

I

know

what I

need to

do.

I

know

I

get

need to get

on it,

but. And

talk to

I love talking to people who are

thinking of going out on their own

or making a move. I'm happy to do it and I always tell 'em, this is confidential. This stays in a vault. I'm not gonna go and tell anybody,

That you're thinking of doing this. I wanna see you succeed because I'm sure some people wanted to see me succeed and they still do

And you know, if I help them. Then, Hey,

you never know, Maybe they'll,

refer a case to me in the future too.

But I do wanna see most,

most of the people that come to me, I'd say all the people really. I wanna see them succeed and I'm gonna help them.

And I've been there trials, tribulations. I know what works, what doesn't. Well, I know what works currently I feel like,

and I want to help

them and be like, oh, I wouldn't do this, but I would do that.

And lemme tell you why,

'cause here's my experience.

So find a mentor

Jonathan Hawkins: is what I would say. Great

advice

Great

advice

for sure.

alright, last question. you've

had

a,

a

good

little

run

here.

Mm-hmm.

Um,

as

you look

to

the

future,

you

know

what's

next?

what's

what's

your

vision?

You've

had,

you've already

had

your

midlife crisis,

so

Kevin Rubin: Yeah.

Jonathan Hawkins: That's

out of

the way.

uh,

what's, what's,

your

vision

for

your firm,

for

your

life,

for

your career,

whatever?

Kevin Rubin: in terms of the, firm, I want to continue to grow,

I

added a partner earlier this year. Uh, I'd like to continue to expand and grow

Uh,

we're starting to run into little space

constraint potentially. So, I

have

to

knock

down a

few

walls and

a

little

bit of

space

left on

the

floor.

But,

you

know,

I'm

not

gonna

let

that,

box me in any way.

Uh, no

pun intended, maybe.

I, I'll find a way to make it work. So I would like to continue to

grow the firm,

be

one of the preeminent family law firms in Atlanta in Georgia,

and

continue to grow there. otherwise,

in terms of,

I

mean,

I'm

hitting a

lot of the.

You

know,

the,

the

peaks

of my

career,

like

I'm currently

the chair of

the

Atlanta

Bar

Family

Law section.

I'm

on

the executive

board of

the

family

law

section for

the

State bar

of

Georgia.

I'm

very

involved

in

the American

Academy of

MA

of

Matrimonial lawyers.

I

want

to continue

to

stay involved.

uh,

I've

been,

I'm

on

panels. I'm

asked to

speak. I

mean,

I,

love sharing

what

I've done.

And

in a

variety

of facets, not

just,

alright, here's

legal things.

No,

here's practice

things,

here's

wellness

tips.

because this is not an easy practice. And so I

would

like to

take.

Some

more

vacations. maybe

I'll

get a

ton

of

new

clients when

I

go away on

vacation.

Right? and also

I,

I

mean, I

would say

I'm

actually

lucky

in that

I'm

there a

lot

for

my

kids and

my family.

and I prioritize them, uh, above most everything else.

like on weekends I'm

at various

sporting events for my kids.

My little one plays travel. Baseball We're always.

on the road for that.

That's

really what I

wanna make sure I'm in their lives while they're still young.

And also make sure I have enough to pay for college. You

can work

hard,

man.

It's coming.

It's

coming faster

than I

know it. but

you

know,

and I

also

wanna make

sure I

take

people,

who

are

working for

me.

I, a

lot of what I do is

making sure that they're fine too,

and

we're all good and, and

a a rising tide raises all ships or something like that. I always make these

analogies to clients and I,

I've lately, been screwing them up.

but I think that's the one.

Mm-hmm.

So if we're all doing well. we're, You know, the firm's doing well, we're all

gonna do

Jonathan Hawkins: So,

well,

Kevin,

uh,

I'll tell

you

it

is,

it's,

been fun

to

watch

sort

of

your

evolution in the

last

four

years or

so.

I mean, it's, it's,

really been fun to watch and, and congrats on, on all

the success you've had. But

thanks for joining me today. Thanks for coming on. So thanks for having, there's anybody out there that, you know,

wants to get in touch with You

You

can look into the camera if you like. Uh, you know, the best way for somebody to find you?

Kevin Rubin: Uh,

if you're looking for me, uh, familylawga.com

is the website. Uh,

you can go on there and, uh, submit or,

reach out to us,

uh,

contact@familylawga.com and,

uh,

young attorney and you're looking for some advice, I'm happy to

meet. I meet with young people all the time.

I wanna see everyone succeed. They were in my shoes.

I wanna help next generation. Awesome.

Jonathan Hawkins: Again,

thanks

for coming

on.

Thanks

for

Kevin Rubin: me.

OutroUpdatedWebsite-1: Thanks for listening to this episode of the founding partner podcast. Be sure to subscribe on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts to stay up to date on the latest episodes. You can also connect with Jonathan on LinkedIn and check out the show notes. With links to resources mentioned throughout our discussion by visiting www.lawfirmgc.com. We'll see you next time for more origin stories and insights from successful law firm founders.