Todd Holzman emphasizes the importance of candor in leadership and coaching, framing every conversation as a collaborative search for truth to facilitate meaningful change. With an extensive background in leadership coaching, Todd shares insights from his experiences at IBM, Harvard, and McKinsey, illustrating how effective leadership transcends authority and requires listening to both oneself and others. He explores the dichotomy between espoused theories—what leaders believe they should do—and theories in use—how they actually behave under pressure, highlighting the need for self-awareness and adaptability in leadership roles. Todd advocates for actionable knowledge that empowers individuals to engage in better conversations about what truly matters, aiming to bridge the gap between who leaders are under stress and who they aspire to be. His vision includes harnessing technology to make leadership development accessible to a wider audience, underscoring a commitment to fostering growth in others through candid dialogue.

Todd Holzman, a renowned leadership coach, shares profound insights on the importance of listening to one's heart and understanding the nuances of effective leadership in a collaborative environment. He reflects on the significance of candor in coaching, emphasizing that leadership is not merely about authority but about fostering an environment where truth can be explored collectively. Holzman draws from his extensive experience working with leaders across various sectors, including his time at IBM and Harvard Kennedy School, to illustrate how a leader's ability to engage in honest conversations can transform organizational dynamics. He advocates for a coaching approach that prioritizes understanding and empathy, allowing leaders to bridge the gap between their espoused theories and actual behaviors, ultimately leading to more effective leadership practices.

The dialogue delves into the impact of personal experiences, particularly Holzman’s relationship with his father, which shaped his optimistic view on leadership. He suggests that effective coaching requires both emotional intelligence and intellectual rigor, urging leaders to confront their biases and blind spots. By examining the internal conflicts that often arise in high-pressure situations, Holzman underscores the necessity of creating safe spaces for open dialogue, where leaders can reflect on their actions and decisions without fear of judgment. This reflective practice not only enhances personal growth but also cultivates a culture of trust and collaboration within teams, which is essential for achieving organizational goals.

Holzman’s innovative approach to leadership coaching emphasizes actionable knowledge and the importance of understanding the dynamics of conversations. He introduces the concept of treating every interaction as a collaborative search for truth, which can lead to better outcomes in both personal and professional settings. This philosophy is grounded in the belief that everyone can be a leader, regardless of their title, and that leadership is fundamentally about making a positive difference in the lives of others. Through his work, Holzman aims to equip individuals with the tools to engage in meaningful conversations that can lead to transformative change, ultimately leaving a legacy of impactful leadership practices.

Takeaways:

• Todd Holzman emphasizes the importance of listening to one's heart in leadership decisions, suggesting it leads to better outcomes.
• Effective coaching involves candid conversations that focus on collaborative truth-seeking rather than merely asking questions.
• The relationship between a coach and a leader should allow for honest feedback and a genuine exchange of ideas.
• Holzman believes that anyone can be a leader, highlighting that leadership is about responsibility and influence, not just titles.
• The concept of candor is redefined as a joint exploration for truth to improve situations.
• Coaching should bridge the gap between who someone is under stress and who they aspire to be.

Links referenced in this episode:

• holzmanleadership.com
• linkedin.com/in/toddholzman

Companies mentioned in this episode:

• IBM
• Honeywell
• McKinsey
• Harvard Kennedy School of Government
• Columbia University
• Cambridge Leadership
• Lenovo

My guest today is Todd Holzman, former leadership coach at IBM's top executive, head of organizational development at Honeywell, and fellow at McKinsey's Change Center.

Todd has taught world leaders at Harvard Kennedy School of Government, developed doctoral students at Columbia University, and trained tens of thousands of leaders globally. To get to Candor, we welcome Todd to the podcast. Well, Todd, welcome to the podcast. How you doing today?

I'm great. Dr. Reverend.

There you go. Good to have you on.

Amy. Nice. Nice to see you, sir. Thank you for having me.

Good to see you, too. Looking forward to this conversation.

So I love to start out with getting to know my guests by kind of giving me the best piece of advice you've ever received.

What's the best piece of advice ever received? For some reason, the worst piece of advice came into my mind.

I thought about that question too, actually.

But my father on his advice on how to treat women at a young age. So let's not go there. The best piece of advice I've ever received. I would say listen to your heart.

I like that. And how, how has that served you well in your kind of making your decisions in terms of even business and just life in general?

Yeah. And it's a bigger part of the idea of listening. Do you know that movie Love? Actually, yes. It's one of my favorite movies.

And I watch it may have skipped last Christmas, but I watch it every Christmas.

And there's this beautiful, you know, narration from Hugh Grant and being in the movie where you see people reuniting with their friends and family at, at Heathrow Airport in London. And the comment he makes is that, you know, love is all around us. If only was it, you know, where to look or something like that.

And I think, I think the truth is that there's. There's always things to be learned every day, you know, kind of learning and lessons are all around us.

And I think it's about listening to yourself and really listening to other people because I think we're all kind of conduits for the infinite. And you never know when some useful from whom and when some useful nugget is going to come.

And so, but also for me, I think listening to my heart has been very important because, you know, I went through all these. I mean, I'm grateful for all these fancy schools and they certainly taught me a lot about how to think and how to articulate myself.

But there's more to being a good leader in the world and helping people than this. And I think tuning into your heart and what your small Voice inside of you is saying that has been really important to me.

I would say more than anything the last eight years and more often than not, I think when I follow what the voice inside of me is saying, things end up ultimately going well. And when I disconnect from it, because I'm just working really hard, I'm doing one thing after another.

I'm creating no space for listening and tuning in. I just become a ragged machine that can get a lot of stuff done but sometimes will lose my way. I think that's. I think that's the truth.

That's very profound. I love that. Will you delve into that?

Because that has really become the hallmark of today's coaching, is how do you create empathetic leaders that are sensitive to the teams that they're leading? If you just lead with your head, and you only lead with the result in mind, you leave people behind in the conversation, but you still have to.

Use your head to reconcile it all. You know, like, okay, something's bothering me. Why is it bothering me?

You know, is it, okay, this conversation I had during this meeting, is it is a reflection of my own spoiledness, you know, or is it. Which it can be right, because just like everybody else, I can get full of myself, or is it a reflection of.

There actually is something that needs to be said and there's an issue that isn't being dealt with, that needs to be dealt with and try to sort all that out. You still need IQ and eq.

It's the combination of these two things that's, I think, so important because eight years ago I was a managing director at another firm. I started my own firm. And the key to that being as successful as it's become. We've trained tens of thousands of leaders in the last eight years.

I've developed a 13 person global faculty, most of whom are not in the States. They're in the UK and Europe. I think a lot of it's down to kind of listening more than anything.

Yeah, I love that. So you kind of gave us a little bit of your journey. What led you into leadership coaching? Because that is a unique space to be in.

What led you to do that?

I would say, probably, maybe indirectly, my father, who passed away over the summer. Sorry to hear that, and thank you.

And I think what he instilled with me is that first of all is a kind of hopeful optimism that things can always be better. And also that you have to fight for that as a person. Because my father was really a fighter, sometimes to his detriment.

But I've always kind of had this feeling that an individual can actually make a real difference, and whether they are a kind of leader in title or they're not. And I think that's why I was.

I resonated so much with the professors that I studied with and got to teach with at the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard, Ron Heifetz and Dean Williams, because the way they think about leadership, and this is an important nuance about being a leadership coach, is that leadership is everyone's right and responsibility, that we all have the right to and are responsible for making things better within the scope of our authority, but beyond it, when nobody looks to us as the leader or no one's looking to us for guidance, answers, or any of that. And so I like this notion of that you don't have to be an authority figure to be a leader.

Of course, oftentimes lots of authority figures aren't leaders, and you see lots of good leadership from people who aren't authority figures. And so I guess this notion that probably came from my father, of that individuals can make a difference and make things better in the world.

And when I equated that with leadership, in my mind, maybe want to do something around that. And I wanted to do something around that because I wanted my life to mean something. I wanted my life to matter.

I didn't want to have a job and just make money. You know, maybe life would have been easier had I chosen that. I don't know. Probably not.

Probably would have come with a lot of liabilities along the way. So, yeah, that's why. And so that's been. That's all that I've studied, you know, a couple of master's degrees.

And, you know, I shied away from the PhD twice, got admitted twice to Columbia for the PhD or one EDD, one PhD and turned it down both times. So they'll never allow me to apply ever again, you know, and I honestly don't blame them. Yeah.

So that's been my life's work about trying to figure out how to try to inspire and equip people to step up to the call of leadership and to be able to deliver it when it counts.

As you think about your career, were there key people in your life, mentors or just people of influence who helped shape your approach to leadership?

Yeah, of course. The two gentlemen that I mentioned, Dr.

I think the stats on him were.

But he taught at the Harvard Business School, the Harvard Graduate School of Education, the Harvard Law School and maybe and I think the Harvard Kennedy School of Government. So no one's ever taught at four schools there, let alone, you know, barely one. Right? That's number one. Number two, he wrote well over 100 articles.

I forget the amount, maybe like 140 or something. 30 books. And received 14 honorary doctorates for his massive contributions to leadership research, social sciences, the field of education.

You know, he was a real loser. You know, I mean, he's such an impressive human being. And I had the chance to talk to him on several occasions.

And all the work and research that I've done is grounded in the foundational work that he did. In fact, the reason I turned down the first PhD is because I got waitlisted.

So I got waitlisted to do my PhD in social organizational psychology from Columbia University Teachers College, where I had done my master's in social organizational psychology. It's one of these things where like 5,000 applications, five people get in. I was waitlisted. I'm like, you waitlisted me. Come on.

And in the midst of that, in Victoria Mars class, I started reading Chris Artis books and papers and articles. And it was like a real awakening for me. And so that work ruined my life. And I became committed to.

I want to equip people to lead better in the world, but I also want to create actionable knowledge that will help people do so. And I didn't feel at the time that that PhD program would allow me to do either of those things, which is why I turned it down.

And one of his, I think, incredibly important discoveries. There are people who are listening, may be vaguely familiar with some of his work.

If you've heard of the ladder of influence ideas like balance advocacy and inquiry, single and double up learning, yada yada, these are the things that popularized, he's known for.

But his most important discovery is what my field, the field of leadership development realized and said, we're not even looking at that or just promptly forgot or a bunch of people don't even know about anymore. It's almost like if people. It's almost like if Einstein came out with equals MC squared and they go, nah, not interested if you were a physicist.

And this is what's happened in my field. So what he discovered in the early 70s is that we have two kinds of theories. We have our spouse theories and our theories in use.

Our spouse theory contains all of the ways we want to behave and what we truly believe. You could call that. And usually it's a representation of what we deem to be the good. And these it's very important to have good espoused theories.

It's very good in your mind to have a sense of what good looks like and all of that. And so preaching normal teaching, that's more I Talk, you listen, YouTube videos.

It the good stuff makes our espoused theories better and more complete. Then you have the theory in use is the almost an algorithmic program that determines how we really behave under real life pressure.

And some interesting discoveries about these things. Number one, there's quite commonality around people's espoused theories.

So if you ask people questions like how important as a leader is it for you to be courageous, to be curious, to be collaborative, to be compassionate? Hands, hands, hands, hands. Everybody kind of agrees with that. They agree with this across cultures, by the way. Very interesting.

But if you look at people underlie pressure, which is when their theory and use kicks in, people default to behaving in ways which block them from behaving according to their spouse theories. They're largely blind to it.

And the default pattern of behavior is also seemingly universal across all kinds of people, culture, company, country, et cetera.

And it's a really interesting thing, which is why in my field, leadership training usually doesn't stick, because all these great things are affecting people's espoused theories. But this unconscious protective program which gets activated when people go to behave with other human beings gets activated.

And so people behave in ways that are contradictory to the way they believe they ought to behave, and it creates a blindness to that fact. So as an example, I'll give a quick example here.

So, you know, you got a leader who says, you know, it's really important to give my person honest feedback, right? Because they've got some blind spots around their gaps.

And if I don't tell them, then there's no chance of them improving and then they're going to fall behind, okay? So the leader believes that. Then you look at them in action and they ask a bunch of questions and never tell the person what they think the gap is.

So you could say that leader is simply a hypocrite, right? They say one thing, they do another. But Chris, I think more accurate and kind explanation was the person really believes that.

But something happens to them in the action moment that explains why they're behaving differently.

And the reason they're asking questions might be yes, I believe in honest feedback, but I also am wired to keep things comfortable both for myself and or others. And this overprotectiveness ends up trumping my higher desires. Did the line get screwed up? You're a little bit fuzzy right now. It might be my fault.

You're good, you know, as long as I look good, this is the important thing. Reverend, as we all know here, everybody knows how handsome you are, so we don't have to bore them with that.

So that was a very interesting, I think finding and discovery and that we all tend to default to this overprotectiveness.

And so when we most need to be courageous, which certainly giving somebody honest feedback, I think it takes some courage because you don't know exactly how they're going to respond. And so you're kind of stepping into the unknown. We tend to keep things too comfortable when we need to be curious.

Like this listening thing I was telling you about. We're often too controlling and trying to dominate the conversation. When we need to be more collaborative, we're too competitive.

We want to be right and not wrong. We want to kind of look good, not bad. We want to win the conversation and not lose.

And we most need to bring compassion to the conversation sometimes when we're the most condemning because people don't think the way we think they ought to think or behave the way we ought to think they should and therefore we should start blaming them. And so we have these two sides of our nature which stand side by side.

And apparently these different theories are stored in different parts of people's brains.

And so that discovery and having a disturbing experience of that in myself during a class at Columbia where I said, wow, I espouse X and I do Y and it's creating all kinds of frickin problems. It was kind of a road to Damascus moment for me, as the my British friends would say. And it was Chris's discovery.

And I said, okay, I'm going to dedicate my life to A, trying to improve people's espoused theories because if we don't have a sense of what good looks like when it comes to leadership, then we can't help people.

Is that why people tests like Myers Briggs, really trying to test toward. This is who you are under stress. So be that leader under stress versus the espoused leader, who.

This is who you aspirationally want to be, but you're going to operate more in this realm. So do we just kind of try to lead people in the realm they naturally default to versus trying to help them be more the leader that they desire to be?

So are you. Are you asking. There might be more than one question, what you asked, it is probably. No, no. I want to clarify because I want. I want to make sure I.

I respond in a way that's connected. Are you asking what the intent of something like Myers Briggs is and. Or are you asking, are we trying to help people?

Are we trying to recognize people for who they are and say, that's cool, or are we trying to cast a bright light on the gap between who they need to be and would like to be versus how they show up?

Yeah, I guess.

Or all the above.

Kind of all the above. I kind of get the sense that some people approach leadership like, okay, this is who you're gonna be under stress.

Let's just deal with that and not even get you to where you aspirationally want to be and so live in that realm versus the other people who say, let's bridge the gap and get you there. And I don't know. I haven't really seen people try to. Man, I shouldn't say that. I don't. I don't know how we.

I've successfully seen people teach you how to lead to get you where you want to be more than just deal with who you are, live in that realm, be the best you can be, as opposed to let. Get to where you want to be as an aspirational leader.

Okay, that's a great question. So let me just. I'll tap on Myers Briggs lightly for a second.

So I think certainly the intent of things like Myers Briggs is to help people become more aware of who they really are and why they behave in the ways that they do. Caveat. Myersburg is not psychometrically valid. Okay. And there's a whole history to it. I won't get into it now, but people love it.

And it doesn't mean people can't get something from it, because anything that forces you to reflect on yourself generally is going to produce something good. But I also don't want to test people with something that's not psychometric valid.

And then they buy this, what this is saying about them, and it ain't true. Okay?

So as far as I understand from the clinical psychologists that I followed the big five personality tests, I'm not like, a big personality test guy, okay? So this is not my. I don't have a real dog in this fight. But big five personality tests is the psychometrically valid.

And the Hogan profile, which is in part based upon that, is also psychometrically valid. So those out there who are very interested in personality tests at least choose something valid and you can get, like, a very cheap version.

If you look up the big five, and on Jordan Peterson's website, he has something that's, like, super cheap and it's worth doing. And I did it, and I found it very insightful.

And then I bought things for my friends and family, and they were very disappointed I didn't buy them something nicer than a personality test for Christmas. But fine. So let's park that now. So the implicit, well, mostly explicit question you were asking is really interesting.

So is our job as coaches to simply affirm who leaders are, or is it to call them to something better? Absolutely. B and A. Right.

You're trying to fit, you know, a square peg into a round hole. And you got to learn, am I. Am I a square peg or am I around peg? So I think. I do think there's a lot of value in that and.

And just getting real about yourself. So that's. I think that I do agree with that. But also, you're good enough just the way you are. None of us are good enough the way we are.

I mean, we are and we're not. Right. Got to love all of us, works included. And, you know, if you really love somebody, you even love the things that are annoying about them.

Not all the time, but sometimes, or you might find even some of those things endearing, which are not endearing to other people, fine. But, man, this life is bigger than anybody. We're all living at just above snorkel depth, some of us below snorkel depth.

So that may mean that there's some adaptation that's required, some growth that's required, number one. Number two, what a pessimistic view of human nature. You're good enough the way you are. You have no idea how good you can be and how great you are.

So I want to affirm people, but I don't want to tell them. I don't want to implicitly tell them there ain't more to you than you see, because that's not true.

And I'm not God, and I can't determine that for you. And I also believe that there's so much more in most people than we see and maybe even they realize.

I mean, how many people have found themselves in difficult circumstances and something comes out of them they had no idea was there? So that's kind of my response to that.

Now, I'm certainly, as a coach, not going to try to impose that end on any of them, but I can say, okay, well, I think the situation requires you to behave in these ways. Do you agree with that? Your choice? Yes. Okay, well, it looks like you're behaving in these other ways. Here's why I say that. Here's my data.

Do you agree with that? Yes. All right. We got a gap.

So I think the consequence of the gap are X, Y and Z for you and the people around you and for all the stuff you care about. Do you agree with that? Yeah. Okay. Do you want to do something about it? No. Okay.

At least you've made an informed choice, and I helped you make a choice that was yours. I will not play God with you, but I won't shy away from. From sharing with you the gap between who you. Who maybe you aspire to be or who you need.

Who the situation. The situation singularly requires you to be and how you're showing up. Because what good would I be as a coach? You know?

Because then what do we become as a coach? Remember that old. You and I are both old enough to remember this Saturday Night Live. What was it? Smiley Guy? Smiley. We look in the mirror.

Oh, yeah, you know, you're good enough. Da, da, da. And gosh darn, people like you, that whole thing.

Right?

Like, no, that's not. That's not our role, man. Not our role at all.

It's an act of love to help people recognize the gaps between their aspirations and how they're showing up. That's how we serve people. That's a big part of how we serve people. I think.

I love that because that explains kind of the goal of what you're doing as coaching is to try to bridge that gap. And you're right. It's. You need someone to be a truth teller to you. To say, you know, here's what I see, here's what you could achieve.

So how do we help get you from there to there? And as far, I've done some coaching myself. I know. The thing is you have to ask the question, are you willing to do the work to get there or right?

If not, then thank you for coming. You know, pay at the door on the way out, right.

Make sure you leave your tithing. But that's fine, right? You know. Yes, but there's also this. I'm sorry, were you going to say something else?

No, that was it.

Before I jump in. No, I think that's right. I. But also I think as a coach, I mean it's important for me to have, you know, humility. And that's hard. It's all hard, man.

It's all hard to express the truth of what you think to a leader that you're the coach of.

It's also hard to like be wrong about it, you know, as well, because, you know, just because I'm the coach or I'm the leadership development person, this large group of people, doesn't mean that I'm right, you know, So I remember. So when IBM hired me at the age of 29 or 30 to be a coach to a segment of their top 30 executives, this was probably the worst mishire in history.

I mean, who does that really?

What, I'm like 30 years old at the time and these guys were in their 50s, you know, they would forget more about leadership than I had learned at that point in my life. I think that's actually true. But because I went to Harvard and I had, I spent some time at McKinsey. They think I know something I didn't know.

Can I curse?

Sure.

I didn't know shit from shinola, okay Is the old expression my father used to say, right? But I had something that a lot of people couldn't give to them. Some of these discoveries I had from Ardrus and it was like.

And the ability to help them have a much better conversation than they otherwise would be able to have. Things that were very meaningful with customers, with their boss, with their colleagues, with people on their team, all of it, right.

But I remember I was coaching Steve Ward, who was the head of the like 13 or 15 billion dollars industrial sector. I mean, it's just like a God, you know, he became the first person to. When IBM sold its laptop. Remember they have think pads.

Back to your earlier IBM joke to me, which was before the call, apparently I couldn't know how. What is It I didn't know how to start the podcast and I hit the hit the button start podcast.

And then the lovely Reverend here said, didn't you work for IBM? I said, well, I was at hr. It doesn't mean I was technically confident. So I'm sorry you all missed that. But I remember talking to Steve.

So he became when there was a think pad and they sold off the business and became Lenovo Computers, a Chinese company, he was their first CEO. And I remember I was his third coach in the space of a year and a half. And he said, I like you. I was like, thank God. I go, why?

He goes, well, unlike all of your other colleagues who came before you, they would just ask me questions all day. And he goes, I got a mirror in my bathroom. He goes, you at least have the courage to tell me what you think.

He goes, you're wrong most of the time, but at least I have something to react to and it actually improves my thinking.

So I kind of like that stuck with me, you know, that even being wrong, as long as I offer something that is, you know, reasonably well thought out, even that can be helpful. And then as the coach, I'm in some ways learning as much from the coaching as them as hopefully they're learning from me.

And I think it is a two way relationship.

So yeah, your process seems rather unique as a coach in that you offer different perspectives.

I've had a lot of coaches on my podcast before and it's pretty much the same kind of like you just say you're asking open ended questions to try to draw out of people things, but you seem to have a unique way of getting to another level with your clients. What is that? What is that special superpower that you have when it comes to coaching?

Superpower? That's really, that's really funny.

You know, when I ask you if I could curse, I'm not sure I got a real yes because I realize the joke I'm going to tell now. There's a little bit of cursing. It'll be like cursing. Reverend, do you think Jesus ever swore?

No, I don't.

He didn't even go, come on, you didn't think I could do this? Where's the trust?

So, but I remember the old Mel Brooks movie, History of the World Part 1, and he's at the unemployment line and whatever her name is, who was on Golden Girls, she's working at the unemployment office and they're all dressed in Roman toga. And she asks, so what do you do? He goes, stand up, philosopher. And she goes, oh, a bullshit artist.

So you know, I wonder if my superpower is uncomfortable traffic. Again, bullshit. But maybe on a more serious note, it's not like I don't think questions matter and listening matters.

I really value that from people who coach me because I like relying upon myself to figure something out and I like somebody who knows how to ask me the right questions to get my brain thinking. So that's, I don't want to denigrate that at all. I really don't. I see the, the tremendous value in it and I ask lots of questions.

In my coaching I have trained my faculty to do the same. For example, today I had two steer co members of a large kind of well known media company. They're on the executive committee, whatever they call it.

I confuse these terms sometimes because different companies have different terms.

And the first question I asked the person on the call, like we're going to work on her situation, I asked them, so I mean, what do you want to learn and what do you want to get out of recession today? Because how do I serve her unless I know what she would like to get from it?

And, and then she's dealing with a difficult situation with somebody who is, there was a claim of harassment made against a particular manager and now she's got to kind of deal with this. Right. So I asked her some questions about.

So I understand the fact pattern, I understand what's true, I understand what she actually did and didn't do to address the situation as a leader herself.

And at some point and she already understands the drill, we're going to figure out what is it about the way you're handling it that may be preventing you from making more progress on this situation?

Because I'm always asking people to bring to me situations that are unresolved or situations where they feel like they're not getting the result that they want. So of course I have to start with learning. And the main lever for learning is great questions.

But when I've learned enough to form a point of view, the questions stop. Right?

Because, because if the questions, if I don't tell her what I think and if I feel like I've got a role model her to death by simply asking questions, then inevitably I will slip into leading questions. So they're not really genuine open questions. They're questions to get her to think what I want her to think without seeming like I'm trying to do it.

Right.

Right.

To create the illusion of self discovery. I don't exist, despite my story, to bullshit people or play Any games with anybody. So. And we've already set the rules of the game ahead of time.

You know, I'm gonna. I want to hear what you think. I'm gonna ask you questions. I'm also gonna share with you what I think. That's how I roll.

If you don't want that, I ain't your coach, and my team isn't for you. But if you do want that, we're here for you.

But even then, it's like, so, okay, well, I think the problem in the conversation you had with this person is that you didn't sufficiently acknowledge how some of this wasn't their fault at all. Because here's what you told me you said. And as a consequence of that, they didn't feel understood.

And so they were more defensive than they otherwise would have been. But then I'm going to stop and I go, but that's just how it appears to me. What's your take on that?

So I don't know if that's different than most coaches, but I know, see me, a lot of coaches, they will kind of stop at the coaching, the questions and not make their own thinking to the other, the person they're coaching, vulnerable to their scrutiny. And that's something I learned early on that I think makes my global faculty and me different than maybe the traditional coaches. I don't know.

What does it sound like to you?

No, it does. I think when I was taught coaching early on was we're not supposed to give our input unless we change hats.

And we had this whole thing about changing hats where if I'm gonna do what you just did, I gotta say, okay, I'm taking off my coaching hat. And now I'm telling you my opinion thing. We were very, very clear about separating the lines of. So.

Yeah.

And we tried not to do much.

I know.

You just did. So. Yeah, it's.

I know. I mean, that's. You know, that's what the ICF will train you in.

Right.

International Coaching Federation. And it's like, who decided? You can't tell people what. Who decided. Coaching cannot include telling people what you think.

Right.

Where did that come from? I mean, in no other field of endeavor. In other fields of endeavor, where coaching is applied, do they say you can only ask people questions?

You know what I mean? Again, it's not to say we shouldn't ask a lot of questions, because the goal is to make the client be able to stand on our own two feet.

So we don't want to create a dependence on us that is like Absolutely. So I'm with that, that that being the goal of what's behind the questioning. But I'm against the, that this is the question is the only tool.

Yeah, the rigid rule can do that. Yeah, the rigid rules too rigid, man.

Yeah, it's like cuz what, what, you know, you, you got a football coach will go, well, do you think you could have run that pattern a little crisper? It's like really, you know, now I do like the idea of, okay, you saw we had an interception here.

I'm not a big sports guy and I'm like, I feel so, you know, stereotypical now guy talking about sports to another guy. But okay, fine, you know, but that's the point.

It's like, okay, so what happened to cause this interception, Push the work back under the team, push the work back on the receiver. Fine. I think that's all good. Because you want to be able to figure this out without you. Ideally.

But if they don't see it, what are you just gonna let them? Let them stay blind.

Right?

And then what's the benefit of your brain? The little voice that's speaking through you? Like, I can't give them access to it now.

You shouldn't give them access to it if you're like, this is the way it is.

Like, hey, you totally screw up that conversation because you didn't acknowledge that it wasn't all their fault and as a consequence they were defensive. Don't you see that? Yeah, if you're going to coach like an a hole, you shouldn't do it that way.

Right.

But if you're doing it, I think with a genuine desire to serve and you're not trying to force your view on them, if you're still enabling them to make a choice that is theirs as an adult, which is why the question at the end is so important and the humility that you bring to it, it's like, but that's just how it appears to me. I mean, maybe I'm wrong about that. What's your take on that then? It's an adult to adult exchange.

I don't have to treat them like they're so brittle, like little children that hear my view. Wow. They are going to treat it like manna from heaven. You know, your Lord Jehovah has given you this 15, 10, 10 commandments.

You know, I don't think we have to worry about that enough.

As long as we invite, as long as we're trying to make the conclusions we've come to discussable and debatable and as Long as we're open to changing our minds and we're not trying to convince them.

I like that.

So that's my stance on it.

I like that. No, because when I started out coaching, it's like you felt like you were on this edge of, I want to say something, but I can't. I'm trying not to.

And so you sit there and you keep asking more questions to try to get them to see your way and.

Going, where do I go now?

It's so obvious. Don't you see this? And so you're kind of like, you're like this kid on the edge of a slide ready to jump off or something.

You're like, no, I can't, but I want to. And so that's what it was like, this tug of war in coaching.

I mean, it's very frustrating. However, I could also see the value of that.

Like, if you're somebody who's used to telling people what you think or what to do, the discipline of, like, okay, you don't get to do that anymore. Now you can only ask questions. I'm like, it's probably good for our.

The development of our characters somehow, and it's probably good for our own evolution.

But then at some point, when you've tamed the part of yourself that just wants to talk, that perhaps is too eager to help, once you've tamed that, then it's time to bring back in you sharing more of yourself, and then you're mixing it up, you know, provided when you share yourself, it isn't coming from the. It's so obvious. Don't you see it?

Right.

If it's coming, that's the thing. But if it's coming from the place of, listen, it's so obvious to me. I don't know why you can't see it, but maybe I'm wrong.

Then that's a better foundation to come from when you're expressing yourself, I think. I mean, how does it sound to you?

No, I agree with you. And I. And I get that.

And that to me, that's a freeing way to help coach someone versus the other way that I was initially trained of, because I'd work with people who are about to go into a meeting and blow the meeting up. And it's obviously going to blow the meeting up, but I can't tell them they're going to blow it up.

And so then they come back a week later going, that thing that didn't go well. I'm like, yeah, I kind of saw that, but I couldn't tell you that your approach might not be the most productive approach because there's a higher.

So first of all, the idea that our job is to help people see things for themselves, that is right. That's the ethos that's behind it. That's a worthy goal. But there's a higher goal being helpful, right? This is in service of that.

So they're going to blow something up. And also we're kind of playing God with them, right? Because if you were to ask this person, listen, I think you're going to blow up this meeting.

But I've got this coaching kind of orthodoxy where I'm not supposed to tell you that and I got to cover it up and only ask you questions. Which would you prefer? And they're looking like, are you crazy? So we do.

We play a lot of God with people where we're deciding for them how they ought to be treated and they're not part of it. So this is us now.

In the name of trying to help these people stand on their own two feet as adults, we're creating an adult child relationship with them because we're not making them part of the deciding around how they're going to be coached. Now, you may get somebody who says, I never want to hear your point of view. I only want to hear questions and let me get banged up on my own, okay?

So part of that sometimes is just good contracting, right, with the client and just like. But you know, you gotta be who you are at some point and you wanna. And you're. Nobody else can be you.

And you being you is the way you could perhaps make a unique contribution to somebody. And ultimately, coaching is a relationship. So if you're not, you bring your real self to it. There ain't no relationship.

And so you want to be able to work with people that can click with who you are, you know, because that's how you're going to bring the most benefit to them. So I think having this conversation at the beginning of some type of relationship is like how you like to coach. Does that even work for them?

And if it doesn't, you know, you're okay, probably okay to modify your approach to some degree. As long as it doesn't. Is it too radical for you? All good?

Yeah, I like that because I keep thinking about the gap we've been talking about in the beginning of this conversation is this is who you are when you're under stress. This is who you could be.

If I don't help you bridge that gap, then am I really Helping you as a coach, when I see that under stress, you're going to do this, and in your situation where you described it, you will blow this up. But if you adjust this and become the empathetic, confident leader you are, you have the potential to be. It'll go over much better.

Let's help you figure out how to not be the person that you default to, but be the aspirational person you could become.

For sure, man. 100%. Yeah, I'm with you on that 100%.

So I love that because I think that's the coaching thing that I saw was the fault in the training I received was like, yeah, but this is. This is not going to go well for you. It's like, it's obvious from the way you're describing it, this isn't going to go.

There's good stuff there. It was just too narrow. That stuff is still good. Probably.

The way you learn to ask questions, the kind of questions left to ask, the insistence on being more patient. Right. I think all that's good, but at some point, even the best teachings become confining.

Yeah. This was a fascinating conversation. I wanted to get one more thing to you. No, we.

We never got to your concept of get to candor, and I want to talk about that a little bit because. Why is that crucial for effective coaching?

Because the truth is the handmaiden of the good.

Right.

I wish I came up with that. I wish I'm the one who would come up with that. It's not me. It's from Jordan Peterson. So.

And you'll know a little bit about this from your religious training. Right. The truth is always in service to the good.

Right.

So as coaches, we're trying to do this person as much good as humanly possible. So you do that by, I think, treating every coaching conversation with them as a collaborative. As a collaborative search for the truth.

You know, what's actually happening in the situation. How do you need to handle it? How are you handling it? All of it. And so when.

When I talk about Candor, I don't mean it as you're just telling them the truth of what you think. That's certainly a part of it.

But you're equally interested in the truth of what they think, because together we're trying to figure out what is actually true, which may not be exactly what either of us are thinking or in the team coaching situation, what the 12 of us are thinking, including me as a coach. So I feel like I'm kind of a guide to help people figure out what's true and then.

And therefore on that basis, what to do in order to make things better than they are.

And so the way we define candor at Holzman leadership is it's not like straight talk or courageous conversations or any of these kind of macho ideas, especially treating every important conversation as a collaborative search for the truth in order to make things better. That's it.

And it's a way of even reconstructing the purpose of conversations, because I remember I was working with this head of sales in the UK for some division of a pharmaceutical company, and his name is Ed. And after we did all this training with his, like, sales reps and then his managers of the sales reps, and then I think of him as next level.

And things went very well. Like, their sales results improved. People were really digging the training.

They really took to it, you know, And I started to try to figure out, so why did it work? And that's what he said to me. He said, you know, I used to think of these conversations with my team or with customers.

That's like, things I had to win. And then I realized, and this. He goes, this is what you're teaching us to treat all these conversations as a collaborative search for the truth.

And I have to say, Reverend, it put words. It just hit me hard, like everything started tingling.

So I think coaching is essential to leadership because leadership is about helping people face the truth and then to take the actions which are going to move things from current reality to some better reality. And I think coaching is the same thing, in a sense. And I think, you know, anyone could be a coach and anyone can be a leader.

When you kind of think of it that way, or we all have something to contribute to leadership and coaching, when you think of it as. It's really. When you think of it as a conversation with those goals, I love that.

This is my favorite question to ask my guest. My second favorite question.

Yes, sir.

What do you want your legacy to be?

An answer to that. Shouldn't I. I feel like there's something deeper that I don't. I don't. I can't kind of express right now because it's not on tap for me.

But I do think that one of the things is I really.

What I want to leave behind is actionable knowledge that could help people have much better conversations about the things that really matter in and outside of work.

And when I say actionable knowledge, and I want to leave it to people in a way, not just knowledge that's valid, but that they can use and to make all their conversations better.

And I want to do that not just through having more people who can coach this stuff and develop other people in this stuff, but ultimately I'm starting to build an AI app around that right now because I want to give people something of very high quality that is available to the masses, that's available to people anytime they need it.

And it's cheap because I think if people can have better conversations about the things that really matter versus the way we normally have those conversations, maybe it moves the world, you know, half an inch forward.

I love that. So here's another coaching question. Anything I haven't asked you that I should have asked you?

That's a great question, right? Yeah. Maybe the question is like, what's next? I don't know. I'm gonna keep working on this app. I'm writing the book.

I'm a cheap treat, keep trying to grow my faculty to keep trying to be truthful. And when you're kind of, I guess, living that way, you never know what's going to come next.

Actually, it's true.

But I'm excited to see it, you know, that's it. And yeah, thank you very much.

Where can people find you, connect with you if they want you as a coach to learn to get to the truth about life?

Oh, God, they should talk to you about life. Maybe they could talk to me about leadership. Well, first of all, we put together some free resources for your listeners.

So if they want some free content, then they could email my pa and colleague lace so la c eolzman.com h o l z m a n dot com also connect with me on LinkedIn. Todd Holzman. T O Double D Holzman. I and my team post every single day, hopefully on things that are stackable and immediately useful.

And then you could also check out Holzman Leadership, where he's got like tons of like free videos and little stackable leadership insights. Just holzmanleadership.com well, Todd, thanks so much.

For this amazing conversation and I really enjoyed it and thank you for taking the time to being on and providing such great content and a great conversation about leadership. So thank you for what you do.

Well, you're very welcome. I hope it was useful and I don't know something about you and the questions and you're very intent listening. That makes it easy. So thank you.

Thank you.